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Mozaffarids needs to be added. I'll get around to it soon one day-- Zereshk 04:03, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Cambyses and Bardiya are brothers; and Cambyses went to conquer Egypt (525bc) getting killed on the way back. No one ever found out if it was murder. However, his brother Bardiya never found out because he too was murdered to end the family of Cyrus. The Median priests (Magi) selected for their prophetic Mesh-King (their Christos-Xisuthros) one of themselves by the name of Smerdis for the throne so that the murder of Bardiya must occur together with Cambyses (which is why the suspicion of murder of Cambyses also). The name Gaumata is a christening name of a Messiah which means Cow-Mother (Gau-Mata). And in religion it is Maya the mother of Buddha where we find several Gaumata named in India and in China during this period of Cyrus (560-522bc) until Darius which honors 1460-year completion of world (365 sothic leap days) or 1508-year (365 solar leap days). GOOGLE it, if WikiPedia doesn't have it. Thus Smerdis by being christened as Smerdis-Gaumata is being declared the approved fufilled prophecy of God by Magi. The Magi had stopped Jerusalem from being one of the temples built by The Throne (Cyrus) from 526-520bc because the faith itself taught their "christ" would be Persian Mede Magi, not a Jew. This is why three pagan Magi opposing such teaching would be significant to a Christian record. The chart posting a (?) is thus confusing as if another name for Bardiya, and is very faulty like the YouTube evangelist who says his first name is Pseudo (not a name, it means false as in pseudo-science or pseudo-astronomy). So if you see Pseudo-Smerdis this is inaprapro since it is Smerdis being a pseudo-Bardiya. It is significant that Egypt new year Thoth 1 falls on January 1 for these 4 years between leap day 525-521bc. 75.86.64.46 ( talk) 23:20, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
So glad to find this site. Now I can teach my children some Persian history. Many thanks. Mina
I have thought it over and as per User:Sunray and User:Slrubenstein's suggestion, I have also read the Wikipedia Manual of Style and it is my belief that BCE/CE is justified in this article since none of the Iranian rulers and empires (including the Elamites) have ever been Christian. To impose 'BC/AD' terminology in this article (and other Iranian history related articles) is, IMHO, POV. I do not wish to initiate a revert war, and I would prefer that the issue be taken to consensus or mediation if other users have a problem with this. SouthernComfort 05:27, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
Resistance to this change is really widespread, quite recently I saw a news article on Google about this very issue raging in Australia, and the uproar was great enough to stop the new-fangled initials from appearing in government schoolbooks. So rest assured, it isn't only myself who would object to the use of BCE and CE over BC and AD. May I ask, why do you feel so strongly in favor of BCE as to take it as far as mediation ? Codex Sinaiticus 05:39, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
I just now saw that wikipedia has a vote page on this, I just cast the 85th vote in favor of BC, as opposed to 72 so far for BCE. It could be argued that BCE is every bit as pov, because it is the one preferred by a doctrine very much like a religion - Marxism. But the name of the traditional Calendar that reckons this year as "2005" is called Anno Domini, and it is simply not practical for a minority of people to change the name of the Calendar everyone else has always used. Yes, Anno Domini means Year of the Lord, meaning Jesus; but as long as the years are dated from 1 AD, you may as well use the correct name for this Calendar. You could try dating your years from some other year if you think this is religious POV bias, as long as you clearly indicate what system you are using; for instance, you might feel the Zoroastrian or Hegira years are more appropriate for an article about Iran than years dated from the "Christian Era." Codex Sinaiticus 06:30, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
You are mistaken in reading BC/AD as being Christian terminology anymore. That is their etymology, but no longer their meaning. Indeed, many (most even) do not even know what they originally stood for. They are just normal date conventions, nothing more. Just as referring to June is no longer seen as honouring Juno, or living in St Paul's or St Alban's or Pennsylvania is not taken as having any particular respect for St Paul, St Alban or William Penn. This is a storm in a teacup. We should just leave things as they are (which is also as our (world-wide) readers would expect). Please do not bring religion into this argument - it has no place here. It's just a question of using common terms for common ideas. Kind regard, jguk 11:00, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia policy is quite clear on use of Eras in articles:
It is up to the author(s) of an article to determine the dating system(s) to be used and there must be consistency with each article. In this case, for a non-Christian topic in a non-Christian region of the world, BCE/CE makes the most sense. Sunray 15:54, 2005 May 21 (UTC)
I favor CE/BCE over AD/BC because it promotes ecumenical standards.
Organizations using BCE/CE:
Style Guides:
I think we should be using it too.-- Zereshk 19:09, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
Many of those can be disputed ( NASA, for example) – they may say in some places that they want BCE/BC but people just simply use BC/AD. Anyone can list opposing links to those that use BC/AD (Encarta and Encyclopedia Britannica for a start, with whom we have a lot more in common with) but the bottom line is that we do not have a BC/AD/BCE/CE policy other than to maintain the original author's choice. violet/riga (t) 15:51, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
This article originally used BC/AD and not BCE/CE. We do not have a policy to use BCE/CE and to change it from one to another is not really appropriate. I suggest people continue to discuss this rather than perpetuate a revert war. violet/riga (t) 14:39, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
I respect your arguments but maintain mine. I will not continue to revert but am worried about people forcing their views on articles. Do note that you should not change them just because you think it is appropriate – the policy proposal did not gather anything like consensus (with the opposers in plurality) and I hope that this is the only article that this will happen on. violet/riga (t) 16:09, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
BCE/CE were invented out a bias against Western history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ajwest1983 ( talk • contribs) 20:44, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
A possible compromise vote has begun at Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Eras. Please read through potential changes to the Manual of Style and vote on your preferred version. violet/riga (t) 21:57, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps this is the wrong time to add to the mess and confusion, but, in the interests of scholarship: I think it's wrong to list the Elamites as a Persian empire. They didn't speak an Indo-European language; they weren't Zoroastrian; they were possibly matrilineal.
They influenced the Persians, sure. They were the route by which Mesopotamian culture entered the Iran plateau. Once they were conquered by the Persians, they became the scribes and bureaucrats of empire. (I understand that most of the clay tablets unearthed at Persepolis have been written in Elamite.) Seems to me that this is analogous to the relationship between the Greeks and the Romans. The Romans adopted much of Greek culture, adapted the Greek alphabet, and prized Greeks as tutors for their children. But that doesn't make the Greeks Romans. We commonly speak of Graeco-Roman civilization. Perhaps there's a case to be made for the term Elamo-Persian civilization. But I don't think it makes any scholarly sense to describe the Elamites as Persians, or Greeks as Romans.
It makes nationalistic sense to various Iranian central governments, which have been promoting nationalism and national pride by stressing the achievements of the Elamite, Achaemenid, and Sassanid civilizations. I'm old enough to remember Mohammed Reza Shah's grandiose self-coronation at Persepolis. But I don't think we have to parrot the government line at Wikipedia.
I imagine that a couple of my distinguished opponents will leap in here claiming that I'm prejudiced against Persians, that I'm a pan-Arab nationalist, that I want to dismember Persia, etc. etc. No, I'm just a SCHOLAR. I don't like seeing what happened -- which is usually complicated and ambiguous -- simplified and distorted to make a political point.
Keep the Elamites in the list, if you want, but add a note, or a caveat, or something. Zora 03:57, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
Elam is definitely a part of Persian history, as much as Khuzestan is a part of Iran. Codex Sinaiticus 04:06, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
The dates for Cambyses II are wrong - he ruled to 521 BCE (or BC if you prefer). This is a reminder for a time when the dispute gets resolved and the article is unlocked. BeavisSanchez 06:03, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
Violet/riga has protected this page. It has been well-established that an Admin who is involved in a editing dispute does not protect the page or pages concerned. Not only that, but to protect it on the revert that subscribes the Admin's own well-established POV is also contrary to policy.
Furthermore, there is no need for protecting this page. What is needed is for the discussion to continue on this talk page. We have a dispute over interpretation of policy. Authors of this and other pages on Iran/Persia have indicated a preference for using BCE/CE notation. Some other authors do not agree, some are making up their minds about it. Meanwhile various discussions are on-going about establishing new policy. In the meantime we have the existing policies and some people are learning how they work. Please unprotect this page. Sunray 13:35, 2005 May 25 (UTC)
Violet/riga's bias in this matter is well-documented. However, that is not the point. It is long-standing policy in Wikipedia that an administrator who is involved in a dispute is not the one to protect the page. I repeat my request to violet/riga: Please either unprotect this page or get another admin to maintain it. Sunray 16:04, 2005 May 26 (UTC)
The page has been unprotected following a report of an illegal page protection. Sunray 09:37, 2005 May 27 (UTC)
As some of you know I have vehemently opposed the introduction of BCE/CE on the Jesus talk page(archive 16). However, when I was asked to comment on the discussion here I had to chuckle because the Kings of Persia just seemed like the ideal article where BCE/CE would be used since middle eastern history is the type of content where I would have expected BCE/CE to be used.
Since the style guide says both are acceptable I think that because the editors currently involved in the edit war have not contributed substantive edits to this article prior to the current Edit disputes (from what I can tell on the history [37], it appears that the edits are solely to make a point either by changing the article to BCE/CE or by reverting that change back to the BC/AD over and over (I admire User:Zereshk for continuing to make useful edits during the current dispute). Personally, I think the compromise on the Jesus page (and the current style guidance) to avoid the use of AD/CE all together where possible, is a reasonable accomodation to the offense take by both sides of the debate.
While the ideal situation would be to have "BC" mean Before Common or Before Christ - whatever the reader wants it to be. And then avoid using AD/CE if possible means that their will be minimal offense while still providing clear understandable dates. The same is true by using 10th Century instead of 10th Century AD or 10th Century CE.
It is, however, not unreasonable to make the small change to include BC/BCE where the readers of the articles would likely take offense at the exclusive use of BC/AD for several reasons:
I urge the continued reliance on the editors of each article to set the appropriate standard based on the article content. However, both sides should refrain from wondering around wikipedia looking for opportunities to switch from BC/AD to BCE/CE or from BCE/CE to BC/AD. Trödel| talk 03:03, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
Certainly when I have been looking at the history of ancient Persian kings in the past, I know I have always seen BC/AD - I really don't see what the dispute is - they are very common date markers, with no meaning other than date markers. I just wish people didn't read meaning into them that does not exist and then decide they take offence at that meaning they are reading into them, jguk 19:30, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
This unnecessary change in historical terminology is an absurd stunt by self-hating busybodies. As an atheist, I find the proposal to make unnecessary changes to the English language far more offensive than two sets of initials that happen to have Christian origins. The fact that the new initials also refers to Christianity just makes the whole thing a bad joke. Luwilt ( talk) 22:32, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
I've removed the protection, as it was placed on the page in violation of policy. Any sign of edit-warring, and it will be replaced. i don't intend to get involved in this article, but I'd just comment that, if those who argue that the changes to the dating system are trivial, and that people who make such changes are being unwarrantedly sensitive, could show their superiority to such oversensitivity and triviality by not reverting, matters would be a good deal less fraught. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 09:21, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Illegal page protection for responses. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 10:54, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
There are discrepancies (see: Iranian Monarchy) within the Zand dynasty section, usually date differeneces of a year, but one ruler (apart from 1779 troubles) are missing there:
The list over there jumps from Jafar to Loft-Ali in 1789.
Maybe someone in the know can sort this out.
Str1977 15:57, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
The Ghorid Dynasty of Herat and Ghor that destroyed the Ghaznavid kingdom is totally missing. - 80.171.43.73 13:14, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
They did control large parts of iran according to the maps and descriptions of territorials controls, so the ghurids should be added — Preceding unsigned comment added by History of Persia ( talk • contribs) 02:54, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
I noticed that someone added a couple of kings to the last years of the 6th century -- Bistam & Hormzd V -- for whom I can find no mention in the primary sources (namely the Armenian historian Sebeos & Theophylact Simocatta). Can someone verify that these shadowy personages actually existed? Or are these evidence of some long-forgotten hoax? -- llywrch 03:12, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
We should be consistent in era notations within an article, including any corresponding userboxes. I have requested before and will again, that we should make it Wikipedia policy to include "BC" for years prior to 1 CE, and "CE" for years following 1 BC. There are many advantages to this, which include:
What does everyone think? I know I should be posting this at Wikipedia:Eras and I will be, but this is a good start. — CRAZY` (IN)` SANE 20:51, 3 May 2006 (UTC) The more often BC/AD is used the better, and to hell with consistency, which is just being used as a Trojan Horse to grind down opposition to this odious and unnecessary change. Luwilt ( talk) 22:33, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Small point this one, but shouldn't the article be called something like 'List of Kings of Persia/Iran', or at least have a redirect so that anyone looking for 'List of Kings of Iran' gets re-directred to this page? Indisciplined 19:34, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
If anything is "ugly", it is this article, a wasteland of redlinks, empty sections and Arabic script in header titles. This needs to be split up and completely reformatted. For one thing, all the Bronze Age stuff doesn't concern "Persia" at all and needs to be moved to the proper articles. The Pre-Islamic period should be treated separately, and the Islamic part should be merged into Muslim dynasties of Persia. -- dab (𒁳) 13:31, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
One of the best comments I ever read in Persian related articles:
"In an effort to be "comprehensive" this page has just become unmanageable instead. I believe this page would be better if it focused on the rulers of ancient Persis in the strict sense rather than making a doomed attempt to include everyone who has ruled a piece of land within the modern borders of Iran." — Preceding unsigned comment added by DragonTiger23 ( talk • contribs) 11:33, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
I tried to add an article on the unknown kings of Parthia, one of whom reigned four years and issued coins without a name on them. The powers that be declared it "patent Nonsense." How could it be patent nonsense when the guy existed, ruled a mighty empire, and issued coins and decrees? Ericl ( talk) 03:03, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
What Now?!?!?!?!?
I added Khomeini and Khamanei, who are Shahs in all but name. Ericl ( talk) 15:33, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
Hello, I've been doing a project on Rulers of the world, and when I came to look at Persia it was a bit unpleasing to the eye, especially when comparing it to other such pages that list Kings or Emperors. I Think a good way to solve this problem would be to start putting all this information into tables, like on other such pages. I've started this process by doing it for the Early Elamite Kings and the Awan Dynasty. I urge all editor's who have free time to continue this process to improve the page.
Snakus Viper ( talk) 17:54, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
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Okay, this is ridiculous. The Mongols were never "Kings" of Persia... Neither were the Arabs or the Turks or even the Greeks. These were invaders, and it's just ridiculous having them on this page because it distorts our own accomplishments and dilutes our history. I'm sure if the Persian kings were alive today, they wouldn't like the idea of being clumped together with Mongols... For example, the Huns invaded and conquered Rome, but I'm sure they're not Roman "Kings". Anyway, this page needs a major revision. Invaders/occupiers should be removed. I'm sure you won't see our kings (which conquered Greece many times in history) on the Greek page of Kings. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.68.163.64 ( talk) 21:24, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
Also for example, Elamites (indigenous people of Iran) were not Persians, since Persians came from the north. The Arab Caliphs were never "Kings" of Persia. They were invaders like the Huns, Barbarians, Mongols, etc. And also any person of non-Persian ancestry should be removed from this page because the list looks like a giant list of random people. It's lost track of the article's main objective; to list Persian Kings. And the design aspect of the list looks hideous, revise it and add pictures beside each king/queen, perhaps for the one's we don't have a picture, add a symbol of their dynasty. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.68.163.64 ( talk) 21:32, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
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I feel that there is something of a nationalistic bias in presenting the Achaemenids as the "Old" Persian Empire and, especially, in merging the Arsacids and Sassanids into a single "Middle" Persian Empire.
For these reasons I think that the "Old Persian Empire" should be renamed " Achaemenid Empire" and "Middle Persian Empire" split into two sections: " Parthian Empire / Arsacid Dynasty" and " Sassanid Empire". I feel like it would be good to split up the "Arab Caliphs" (The switch from Ummayyad to Abbasid represents a significant cultural, political and social shift) and "Modern Empire" sections as well, but I know less about these periods, and am willing to bow to the wisdom of those more expert than I. Furius ( talk) 09:12, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
I reverted an edit combining the Seleucid and Parthian dynasties under a single setting and it looks like we're at risk of getting into an edit war over it, so I think it's well that I explain why. It is my feeling that this list is by nature rather unwieldy, but that it is much easier to navigate if every major dynasty gets its own heading that one can access from the table of contents. Combining the Seleucid and Parthian dynasties together as if they alternate does not actually improve accuracy either, because in large part they did not alternate, they contested control of the Iranian plateau, ruling simultaneously. That hasn't been implemented all the way through, as yet, but it is already how we deal with other cases of contemporary rule, such as the Dabuyids and the confused period in the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries. It is my strong feeling that this is much better than clumping things together. Furius ( talk) 00:16, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
I put them back in like I tried to some years ago. If you look at the list, there are elected rulers and rulers who aren't called "shah" The current Iranian constitution makes the position clear and it's clearly monarchical. Ericl ( talk) 21:26, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
Also on the list are "Presidents of the North German Confederation" which included a "vicar" who was merely noble, and Ol'Boney himself, who got the job when he was still First Consul of France, didn't have a monarchical title there. The Poles had an elected king and they were considered monarchs. As to Iran, both Palhavis were born commoners, the father having taken over in a coup. (come to think of it, so did the Qajars). The Ayatollahs are no different from the elected monarchs of Germany and Poland. Ericl ( talk) 16:16, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
The Median Empire was the first of all Iranian Empires. Medes ruled, not Persian. Persians were subjects of the Medes, and there was no such thing as Persia. Thus, including the Median Empire as being part of Persia, is misleading, even though the empires that followed (like the Achaemenid Empire) were of Medo-Persian origin (referred to as Medo-Persia by Herodotus, not as Persia). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.244.23.10 ( talk) 20:47, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Withdrawn. The discussion focused mostly on the question of what period of time should be covered by the article, which seems separate from what its title should be. No support for renaming the article had been expressed prior to the withdrawal, except one person who never said why they supported it. One person later said they would support the renaming if it meant that pre-Achaemenid rulers of the geographic region would be included. But this is a content question, not a title question, and no clear connection between the two was established in the discussion. Closing this without prejudice against it being resubmitted if it seems to make some difference to whether the scope of the article should include pre-Achaemenid rulers. ( non-admin closure) — BarrelProof ( talk) 17:25, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
List of kings of Persia → List of kings of Iran – When I ran into this article today it listed a number of pre-Iranian dynasties - I've removed most of those. There are some pre-Median kings I'm not sure about except that they aren't Persian. Nor can we call the Median kings Persian, although some nationalistic minded people do. We can call the Medes Iranian, however. Doug Weller ( talk) 13:36, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
Above, in the archived move discussion and in some prior comments, please see various remarks about whether pre-Achaemenid rulers in the geographic region of Persia/Iran should be included in the article or not. This is an unresolved question. — BarrelProof ( talk) 17:41, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
As per subject line, I'm asking whether this list should be based on multiple academic sources supporting the statement that a monarch or dynasty is Persian. Doug Weller ( talk) 17:50, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
So currently the page's introduction is the bare statement "The following is a list of kings of Persia, who ruled over Iran from the third millennium BC until the deposition of the Pahlavi dynasty in 1979." However we resolve this debate, we should end up with something fuller - something like the introduction of List of French monarchs seems like the goal. Whether a king or dynasty was "Persian" is a bad criterion for inclusion in this list:
Thus I think the criterion must be a geographical or legal entity. That could be "Persia" or "Iran", whichever we choose will be somewhat artificial and anachronistic. The most important thing would be to define those artificial and anachronistic limits clearly and sensibly. Furius ( talk) 19:14, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
Where are the Ghaznavids? Tafshina ( talk) 12:44, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
Ghazanavids were a dynasty established by Mahmud of Ghazni in Afghanistan and became Shah of all Khorasan which Mahmud and his successors conquered more lands from modern Iran, Transoxiana, and India Aceditor00 ( talk) 16:33, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
what happened to cambyses I, tiespes, Cyrus, and the namesake of the dynasty: Achaemenes. They were vassals, but should still be mentioned right? and it says kings who ruled modern day persia, which is the equivalent of Iran. the Medians DEFINATELY was within those borders but i hear that was resolved so (DAMMIT). also can someone get this page protected? ive been seeing cyrus's name being replaced by thing like: Justin bieber. SERIOUSLY. History of Persia ( talk) 00:12, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
I think that one of these should be added or removed. Rashidun were not *monarchs* and they were elected, as much as Supreme Leaders are *elected*.See Rashidun Caliphate#Electing or appointing a caliph and Iranian Assembly of experts for further information. And Supreme Leadership is absolute power in the regime,And he has actually more authority than of Monarch of the United Kingdom and its for lifetime, and thats the difference between them and similar *democratic* positions like the President of Israel. NetBSDuser ( talk) 08:03, 21 December 2017 (UTC)
I completely agree with you, there's even a hadith that actually shows the the title of "Malik" which means king/monarch were different and seperate from the title of Caliph.
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Isn't "List of monarchs of Iran" a better name? Because then you can add Median Kings too. As far as I know the first real Iranian King is Cyaxares, and not Cyrus or Achaemenes. It was Cyaxares who founded so-called Persian Empire, but Cyrus got the credit. (Medo-Persian Empire is better name, because the early Persian kings called themselves "King of Persians and Medes) Amir El Mander ( talk) 13:15, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
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Persia? Iran? This is nationalistic article, Pesia was a name given by Europeans to modern Iran and it has nothing todo with Ghurids, Timurids, Samanids, Safarids and many other Afghanistan historical empires. Aceditor00 ( talk) 16:28, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
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Mozaffarids needs to be added. I'll get around to it soon one day-- Zereshk 04:03, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Cambyses and Bardiya are brothers; and Cambyses went to conquer Egypt (525bc) getting killed on the way back. No one ever found out if it was murder. However, his brother Bardiya never found out because he too was murdered to end the family of Cyrus. The Median priests (Magi) selected for their prophetic Mesh-King (their Christos-Xisuthros) one of themselves by the name of Smerdis for the throne so that the murder of Bardiya must occur together with Cambyses (which is why the suspicion of murder of Cambyses also). The name Gaumata is a christening name of a Messiah which means Cow-Mother (Gau-Mata). And in religion it is Maya the mother of Buddha where we find several Gaumata named in India and in China during this period of Cyrus (560-522bc) until Darius which honors 1460-year completion of world (365 sothic leap days) or 1508-year (365 solar leap days). GOOGLE it, if WikiPedia doesn't have it. Thus Smerdis by being christened as Smerdis-Gaumata is being declared the approved fufilled prophecy of God by Magi. The Magi had stopped Jerusalem from being one of the temples built by The Throne (Cyrus) from 526-520bc because the faith itself taught their "christ" would be Persian Mede Magi, not a Jew. This is why three pagan Magi opposing such teaching would be significant to a Christian record. The chart posting a (?) is thus confusing as if another name for Bardiya, and is very faulty like the YouTube evangelist who says his first name is Pseudo (not a name, it means false as in pseudo-science or pseudo-astronomy). So if you see Pseudo-Smerdis this is inaprapro since it is Smerdis being a pseudo-Bardiya. It is significant that Egypt new year Thoth 1 falls on January 1 for these 4 years between leap day 525-521bc. 75.86.64.46 ( talk) 23:20, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
So glad to find this site. Now I can teach my children some Persian history. Many thanks. Mina
I have thought it over and as per User:Sunray and User:Slrubenstein's suggestion, I have also read the Wikipedia Manual of Style and it is my belief that BCE/CE is justified in this article since none of the Iranian rulers and empires (including the Elamites) have ever been Christian. To impose 'BC/AD' terminology in this article (and other Iranian history related articles) is, IMHO, POV. I do not wish to initiate a revert war, and I would prefer that the issue be taken to consensus or mediation if other users have a problem with this. SouthernComfort 05:27, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
Resistance to this change is really widespread, quite recently I saw a news article on Google about this very issue raging in Australia, and the uproar was great enough to stop the new-fangled initials from appearing in government schoolbooks. So rest assured, it isn't only myself who would object to the use of BCE and CE over BC and AD. May I ask, why do you feel so strongly in favor of BCE as to take it as far as mediation ? Codex Sinaiticus 05:39, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
I just now saw that wikipedia has a vote page on this, I just cast the 85th vote in favor of BC, as opposed to 72 so far for BCE. It could be argued that BCE is every bit as pov, because it is the one preferred by a doctrine very much like a religion - Marxism. But the name of the traditional Calendar that reckons this year as "2005" is called Anno Domini, and it is simply not practical for a minority of people to change the name of the Calendar everyone else has always used. Yes, Anno Domini means Year of the Lord, meaning Jesus; but as long as the years are dated from 1 AD, you may as well use the correct name for this Calendar. You could try dating your years from some other year if you think this is religious POV bias, as long as you clearly indicate what system you are using; for instance, you might feel the Zoroastrian or Hegira years are more appropriate for an article about Iran than years dated from the "Christian Era." Codex Sinaiticus 06:30, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
You are mistaken in reading BC/AD as being Christian terminology anymore. That is their etymology, but no longer their meaning. Indeed, many (most even) do not even know what they originally stood for. They are just normal date conventions, nothing more. Just as referring to June is no longer seen as honouring Juno, or living in St Paul's or St Alban's or Pennsylvania is not taken as having any particular respect for St Paul, St Alban or William Penn. This is a storm in a teacup. We should just leave things as they are (which is also as our (world-wide) readers would expect). Please do not bring religion into this argument - it has no place here. It's just a question of using common terms for common ideas. Kind regard, jguk 11:00, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia policy is quite clear on use of Eras in articles:
It is up to the author(s) of an article to determine the dating system(s) to be used and there must be consistency with each article. In this case, for a non-Christian topic in a non-Christian region of the world, BCE/CE makes the most sense. Sunray 15:54, 2005 May 21 (UTC)
I favor CE/BCE over AD/BC because it promotes ecumenical standards.
Organizations using BCE/CE:
Style Guides:
I think we should be using it too.-- Zereshk 19:09, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
Many of those can be disputed ( NASA, for example) – they may say in some places that they want BCE/BC but people just simply use BC/AD. Anyone can list opposing links to those that use BC/AD (Encarta and Encyclopedia Britannica for a start, with whom we have a lot more in common with) but the bottom line is that we do not have a BC/AD/BCE/CE policy other than to maintain the original author's choice. violet/riga (t) 15:51, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
This article originally used BC/AD and not BCE/CE. We do not have a policy to use BCE/CE and to change it from one to another is not really appropriate. I suggest people continue to discuss this rather than perpetuate a revert war. violet/riga (t) 14:39, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
I respect your arguments but maintain mine. I will not continue to revert but am worried about people forcing their views on articles. Do note that you should not change them just because you think it is appropriate – the policy proposal did not gather anything like consensus (with the opposers in plurality) and I hope that this is the only article that this will happen on. violet/riga (t) 16:09, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
BCE/CE were invented out a bias against Western history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ajwest1983 ( talk • contribs) 20:44, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
A possible compromise vote has begun at Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Eras. Please read through potential changes to the Manual of Style and vote on your preferred version. violet/riga (t) 21:57, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps this is the wrong time to add to the mess and confusion, but, in the interests of scholarship: I think it's wrong to list the Elamites as a Persian empire. They didn't speak an Indo-European language; they weren't Zoroastrian; they were possibly matrilineal.
They influenced the Persians, sure. They were the route by which Mesopotamian culture entered the Iran plateau. Once they were conquered by the Persians, they became the scribes and bureaucrats of empire. (I understand that most of the clay tablets unearthed at Persepolis have been written in Elamite.) Seems to me that this is analogous to the relationship between the Greeks and the Romans. The Romans adopted much of Greek culture, adapted the Greek alphabet, and prized Greeks as tutors for their children. But that doesn't make the Greeks Romans. We commonly speak of Graeco-Roman civilization. Perhaps there's a case to be made for the term Elamo-Persian civilization. But I don't think it makes any scholarly sense to describe the Elamites as Persians, or Greeks as Romans.
It makes nationalistic sense to various Iranian central governments, which have been promoting nationalism and national pride by stressing the achievements of the Elamite, Achaemenid, and Sassanid civilizations. I'm old enough to remember Mohammed Reza Shah's grandiose self-coronation at Persepolis. But I don't think we have to parrot the government line at Wikipedia.
I imagine that a couple of my distinguished opponents will leap in here claiming that I'm prejudiced against Persians, that I'm a pan-Arab nationalist, that I want to dismember Persia, etc. etc. No, I'm just a SCHOLAR. I don't like seeing what happened -- which is usually complicated and ambiguous -- simplified and distorted to make a political point.
Keep the Elamites in the list, if you want, but add a note, or a caveat, or something. Zora 03:57, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
Elam is definitely a part of Persian history, as much as Khuzestan is a part of Iran. Codex Sinaiticus 04:06, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
The dates for Cambyses II are wrong - he ruled to 521 BCE (or BC if you prefer). This is a reminder for a time when the dispute gets resolved and the article is unlocked. BeavisSanchez 06:03, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
Violet/riga has protected this page. It has been well-established that an Admin who is involved in a editing dispute does not protect the page or pages concerned. Not only that, but to protect it on the revert that subscribes the Admin's own well-established POV is also contrary to policy.
Furthermore, there is no need for protecting this page. What is needed is for the discussion to continue on this talk page. We have a dispute over interpretation of policy. Authors of this and other pages on Iran/Persia have indicated a preference for using BCE/CE notation. Some other authors do not agree, some are making up their minds about it. Meanwhile various discussions are on-going about establishing new policy. In the meantime we have the existing policies and some people are learning how they work. Please unprotect this page. Sunray 13:35, 2005 May 25 (UTC)
Violet/riga's bias in this matter is well-documented. However, that is not the point. It is long-standing policy in Wikipedia that an administrator who is involved in a dispute is not the one to protect the page. I repeat my request to violet/riga: Please either unprotect this page or get another admin to maintain it. Sunray 16:04, 2005 May 26 (UTC)
The page has been unprotected following a report of an illegal page protection. Sunray 09:37, 2005 May 27 (UTC)
As some of you know I have vehemently opposed the introduction of BCE/CE on the Jesus talk page(archive 16). However, when I was asked to comment on the discussion here I had to chuckle because the Kings of Persia just seemed like the ideal article where BCE/CE would be used since middle eastern history is the type of content where I would have expected BCE/CE to be used.
Since the style guide says both are acceptable I think that because the editors currently involved in the edit war have not contributed substantive edits to this article prior to the current Edit disputes (from what I can tell on the history [37], it appears that the edits are solely to make a point either by changing the article to BCE/CE or by reverting that change back to the BC/AD over and over (I admire User:Zereshk for continuing to make useful edits during the current dispute). Personally, I think the compromise on the Jesus page (and the current style guidance) to avoid the use of AD/CE all together where possible, is a reasonable accomodation to the offense take by both sides of the debate.
While the ideal situation would be to have "BC" mean Before Common or Before Christ - whatever the reader wants it to be. And then avoid using AD/CE if possible means that their will be minimal offense while still providing clear understandable dates. The same is true by using 10th Century instead of 10th Century AD or 10th Century CE.
It is, however, not unreasonable to make the small change to include BC/BCE where the readers of the articles would likely take offense at the exclusive use of BC/AD for several reasons:
I urge the continued reliance on the editors of each article to set the appropriate standard based on the article content. However, both sides should refrain from wondering around wikipedia looking for opportunities to switch from BC/AD to BCE/CE or from BCE/CE to BC/AD. Trödel| talk 03:03, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
Certainly when I have been looking at the history of ancient Persian kings in the past, I know I have always seen BC/AD - I really don't see what the dispute is - they are very common date markers, with no meaning other than date markers. I just wish people didn't read meaning into them that does not exist and then decide they take offence at that meaning they are reading into them, jguk 19:30, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
This unnecessary change in historical terminology is an absurd stunt by self-hating busybodies. As an atheist, I find the proposal to make unnecessary changes to the English language far more offensive than two sets of initials that happen to have Christian origins. The fact that the new initials also refers to Christianity just makes the whole thing a bad joke. Luwilt ( talk) 22:32, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
I've removed the protection, as it was placed on the page in violation of policy. Any sign of edit-warring, and it will be replaced. i don't intend to get involved in this article, but I'd just comment that, if those who argue that the changes to the dating system are trivial, and that people who make such changes are being unwarrantedly sensitive, could show their superiority to such oversensitivity and triviality by not reverting, matters would be a good deal less fraught. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 09:21, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Illegal page protection for responses. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 10:54, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
There are discrepancies (see: Iranian Monarchy) within the Zand dynasty section, usually date differeneces of a year, but one ruler (apart from 1779 troubles) are missing there:
The list over there jumps from Jafar to Loft-Ali in 1789.
Maybe someone in the know can sort this out.
Str1977 15:57, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
The Ghorid Dynasty of Herat and Ghor that destroyed the Ghaznavid kingdom is totally missing. - 80.171.43.73 13:14, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
They did control large parts of iran according to the maps and descriptions of territorials controls, so the ghurids should be added — Preceding unsigned comment added by History of Persia ( talk • contribs) 02:54, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
I noticed that someone added a couple of kings to the last years of the 6th century -- Bistam & Hormzd V -- for whom I can find no mention in the primary sources (namely the Armenian historian Sebeos & Theophylact Simocatta). Can someone verify that these shadowy personages actually existed? Or are these evidence of some long-forgotten hoax? -- llywrch 03:12, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
We should be consistent in era notations within an article, including any corresponding userboxes. I have requested before and will again, that we should make it Wikipedia policy to include "BC" for years prior to 1 CE, and "CE" for years following 1 BC. There are many advantages to this, which include:
What does everyone think? I know I should be posting this at Wikipedia:Eras and I will be, but this is a good start. — CRAZY` (IN)` SANE 20:51, 3 May 2006 (UTC) The more often BC/AD is used the better, and to hell with consistency, which is just being used as a Trojan Horse to grind down opposition to this odious and unnecessary change. Luwilt ( talk) 22:33, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Small point this one, but shouldn't the article be called something like 'List of Kings of Persia/Iran', or at least have a redirect so that anyone looking for 'List of Kings of Iran' gets re-directred to this page? Indisciplined 19:34, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
If anything is "ugly", it is this article, a wasteland of redlinks, empty sections and Arabic script in header titles. This needs to be split up and completely reformatted. For one thing, all the Bronze Age stuff doesn't concern "Persia" at all and needs to be moved to the proper articles. The Pre-Islamic period should be treated separately, and the Islamic part should be merged into Muslim dynasties of Persia. -- dab (𒁳) 13:31, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
One of the best comments I ever read in Persian related articles:
"In an effort to be "comprehensive" this page has just become unmanageable instead. I believe this page would be better if it focused on the rulers of ancient Persis in the strict sense rather than making a doomed attempt to include everyone who has ruled a piece of land within the modern borders of Iran." — Preceding unsigned comment added by DragonTiger23 ( talk • contribs) 11:33, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
I tried to add an article on the unknown kings of Parthia, one of whom reigned four years and issued coins without a name on them. The powers that be declared it "patent Nonsense." How could it be patent nonsense when the guy existed, ruled a mighty empire, and issued coins and decrees? Ericl ( talk) 03:03, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
What Now?!?!?!?!?
I added Khomeini and Khamanei, who are Shahs in all but name. Ericl ( talk) 15:33, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
Hello, I've been doing a project on Rulers of the world, and when I came to look at Persia it was a bit unpleasing to the eye, especially when comparing it to other such pages that list Kings or Emperors. I Think a good way to solve this problem would be to start putting all this information into tables, like on other such pages. I've started this process by doing it for the Early Elamite Kings and the Awan Dynasty. I urge all editor's who have free time to continue this process to improve the page.
Snakus Viper ( talk) 17:54, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
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Okay, this is ridiculous. The Mongols were never "Kings" of Persia... Neither were the Arabs or the Turks or even the Greeks. These were invaders, and it's just ridiculous having them on this page because it distorts our own accomplishments and dilutes our history. I'm sure if the Persian kings were alive today, they wouldn't like the idea of being clumped together with Mongols... For example, the Huns invaded and conquered Rome, but I'm sure they're not Roman "Kings". Anyway, this page needs a major revision. Invaders/occupiers should be removed. I'm sure you won't see our kings (which conquered Greece many times in history) on the Greek page of Kings. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.68.163.64 ( talk) 21:24, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
Also for example, Elamites (indigenous people of Iran) were not Persians, since Persians came from the north. The Arab Caliphs were never "Kings" of Persia. They were invaders like the Huns, Barbarians, Mongols, etc. And also any person of non-Persian ancestry should be removed from this page because the list looks like a giant list of random people. It's lost track of the article's main objective; to list Persian Kings. And the design aspect of the list looks hideous, revise it and add pictures beside each king/queen, perhaps for the one's we don't have a picture, add a symbol of their dynasty. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.68.163.64 ( talk) 21:32, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
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I feel that there is something of a nationalistic bias in presenting the Achaemenids as the "Old" Persian Empire and, especially, in merging the Arsacids and Sassanids into a single "Middle" Persian Empire.
For these reasons I think that the "Old Persian Empire" should be renamed " Achaemenid Empire" and "Middle Persian Empire" split into two sections: " Parthian Empire / Arsacid Dynasty" and " Sassanid Empire". I feel like it would be good to split up the "Arab Caliphs" (The switch from Ummayyad to Abbasid represents a significant cultural, political and social shift) and "Modern Empire" sections as well, but I know less about these periods, and am willing to bow to the wisdom of those more expert than I. Furius ( talk) 09:12, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
I reverted an edit combining the Seleucid and Parthian dynasties under a single setting and it looks like we're at risk of getting into an edit war over it, so I think it's well that I explain why. It is my feeling that this list is by nature rather unwieldy, but that it is much easier to navigate if every major dynasty gets its own heading that one can access from the table of contents. Combining the Seleucid and Parthian dynasties together as if they alternate does not actually improve accuracy either, because in large part they did not alternate, they contested control of the Iranian plateau, ruling simultaneously. That hasn't been implemented all the way through, as yet, but it is already how we deal with other cases of contemporary rule, such as the Dabuyids and the confused period in the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries. It is my strong feeling that this is much better than clumping things together. Furius ( talk) 00:16, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
I put them back in like I tried to some years ago. If you look at the list, there are elected rulers and rulers who aren't called "shah" The current Iranian constitution makes the position clear and it's clearly monarchical. Ericl ( talk) 21:26, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
Also on the list are "Presidents of the North German Confederation" which included a "vicar" who was merely noble, and Ol'Boney himself, who got the job when he was still First Consul of France, didn't have a monarchical title there. The Poles had an elected king and they were considered monarchs. As to Iran, both Palhavis were born commoners, the father having taken over in a coup. (come to think of it, so did the Qajars). The Ayatollahs are no different from the elected monarchs of Germany and Poland. Ericl ( talk) 16:16, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
The Median Empire was the first of all Iranian Empires. Medes ruled, not Persian. Persians were subjects of the Medes, and there was no such thing as Persia. Thus, including the Median Empire as being part of Persia, is misleading, even though the empires that followed (like the Achaemenid Empire) were of Medo-Persian origin (referred to as Medo-Persia by Herodotus, not as Persia). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.244.23.10 ( talk) 20:47, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Withdrawn. The discussion focused mostly on the question of what period of time should be covered by the article, which seems separate from what its title should be. No support for renaming the article had been expressed prior to the withdrawal, except one person who never said why they supported it. One person later said they would support the renaming if it meant that pre-Achaemenid rulers of the geographic region would be included. But this is a content question, not a title question, and no clear connection between the two was established in the discussion. Closing this without prejudice against it being resubmitted if it seems to make some difference to whether the scope of the article should include pre-Achaemenid rulers. ( non-admin closure) — BarrelProof ( talk) 17:25, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
List of kings of Persia → List of kings of Iran – When I ran into this article today it listed a number of pre-Iranian dynasties - I've removed most of those. There are some pre-Median kings I'm not sure about except that they aren't Persian. Nor can we call the Median kings Persian, although some nationalistic minded people do. We can call the Medes Iranian, however. Doug Weller ( talk) 13:36, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
Above, in the archived move discussion and in some prior comments, please see various remarks about whether pre-Achaemenid rulers in the geographic region of Persia/Iran should be included in the article or not. This is an unresolved question. — BarrelProof ( talk) 17:41, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
As per subject line, I'm asking whether this list should be based on multiple academic sources supporting the statement that a monarch or dynasty is Persian. Doug Weller ( talk) 17:50, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
So currently the page's introduction is the bare statement "The following is a list of kings of Persia, who ruled over Iran from the third millennium BC until the deposition of the Pahlavi dynasty in 1979." However we resolve this debate, we should end up with something fuller - something like the introduction of List of French monarchs seems like the goal. Whether a king or dynasty was "Persian" is a bad criterion for inclusion in this list:
Thus I think the criterion must be a geographical or legal entity. That could be "Persia" or "Iran", whichever we choose will be somewhat artificial and anachronistic. The most important thing would be to define those artificial and anachronistic limits clearly and sensibly. Furius ( talk) 19:14, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
Where are the Ghaznavids? Tafshina ( talk) 12:44, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
Ghazanavids were a dynasty established by Mahmud of Ghazni in Afghanistan and became Shah of all Khorasan which Mahmud and his successors conquered more lands from modern Iran, Transoxiana, and India Aceditor00 ( talk) 16:33, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
what happened to cambyses I, tiespes, Cyrus, and the namesake of the dynasty: Achaemenes. They were vassals, but should still be mentioned right? and it says kings who ruled modern day persia, which is the equivalent of Iran. the Medians DEFINATELY was within those borders but i hear that was resolved so (DAMMIT). also can someone get this page protected? ive been seeing cyrus's name being replaced by thing like: Justin bieber. SERIOUSLY. History of Persia ( talk) 00:12, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
I think that one of these should be added or removed. Rashidun were not *monarchs* and they were elected, as much as Supreme Leaders are *elected*.See Rashidun Caliphate#Electing or appointing a caliph and Iranian Assembly of experts for further information. And Supreme Leadership is absolute power in the regime,And he has actually more authority than of Monarch of the United Kingdom and its for lifetime, and thats the difference between them and similar *democratic* positions like the President of Israel. NetBSDuser ( talk) 08:03, 21 December 2017 (UTC)
I completely agree with you, there's even a hadith that actually shows the the title of "Malik" which means king/monarch were different and seperate from the title of Caliph.
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Isn't "List of monarchs of Iran" a better name? Because then you can add Median Kings too. As far as I know the first real Iranian King is Cyaxares, and not Cyrus or Achaemenes. It was Cyaxares who founded so-called Persian Empire, but Cyrus got the credit. (Medo-Persian Empire is better name, because the early Persian kings called themselves "King of Persians and Medes) Amir El Mander ( talk) 13:15, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
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Persia? Iran? This is nationalistic article, Pesia was a name given by Europeans to modern Iran and it has nothing todo with Ghurids, Timurids, Samanids, Safarids and many other Afghanistan historical empires. Aceditor00 ( talk) 16:28, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
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