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Comment: I've just replaced a vote to keep (and some minor formatting) removed by Silversmith ( talk · contributions) ( [1]). I'd like to think that this was an accident, though to be honest it's difficult to see how it could have been. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 11:51, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
I refuse to vote. Voting is stupid in a wiki. Nothing is resolved by it, except that one side has a stick to bully the other with. BTW, Mel, El C, Silversmith, I had a strange server glitch earlier today in which two comments were wiped out. I didn't even know they existed and only knew I had wiped it out when I received a message about it. You're all people I like and respect as editors, so please, let's all play nicely! Grace Note 13:46, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
The arguments given by those who favor AD are hypocritical and disingenuous for two reasons. First, Grace Note, who favors AD, asks of the CE system "Who has it in common with whom?" But Nob, who also favors the AD system, provides the answer: the current system of dating (by which this is 2005) "is currently commonly used globally by all cultures and civilizations, Islamic, Sinic, Japanese, Hindu, etc." This is why we call it the "common era" -- because many non-Christian groups use it also. They do not use it because they believe Jesus is Christ or the Lord, they use it as a convention to coordinate activities and records of activities with one another. So CE makes perfect sense. Second, opponents of CE claim that it is POV. Why? Because it involves their changing one of their habits. Sorry, but this is not what POV means. "POV" does not refer to anything that leads you to change a belief or practice, it refers to beliefs or practices that represent one point of view. This is indeed true of BC/AD. It represents the point of view of those who think Jesus is Christ or who think Jesus is the Lord. Now, I know that many people who call themselves non-Christians use these terms, but that is because the West is largely a Christian culture, by which I mean that many practices that have their origin in Christianity are taken for granted, regardless of what people believe (this is one meaning of "culture," a historically and locally specific set of habits). It should surprise no one that a google search shows that the vast majority of people use AD/BC, since the vaste majority of sites on the web are from Christian or Christianized societies. But again, the claim that AD is NPOV because it is accepted by a majority is 'ABSURD. All it means is that many people have this POV, not that it is NPOV. Most people in the antebellum South (and probably the North too) thought Blacks were inferior. That most people thought this doesn't mean that it is an objective fact, indeed it is still a point of view, a highly biased one. So let's leave out the numbers, shall we? They are irrelevant. I and many people like me — in fact most Jews I know – have no problem with Christians using BC and AD among themselves since it is after all their religion. But we are deeply offended when these terms are applied to ordinary events or even our own history, because we do not believe Jesus was Christ or the Lord. We can accept the numbers (e.g. 2005) as a convention, but this number (2005) has meaning because many people accept it as a convention. But those many people do not accept that Jesus is Lord. That reflects one point of view and is by no means neutral. Now, why do opponents of BCE and CE think these terms are POV? I have read through this entire discussion and the only answer I can see is: "because it is different from what we are used to." This is a pathetic position. Anyone who believes that their own points of view are neutral points of view either does not understand what NPOV is, or does not accept the principle of NPOV. And for any Wikipedia to claim that BCE/CE is POV is pure hypocracy, because their reason for opposing it is simply because they do not like it. Look, I know that this year is actually 5765. It really is. That's the truth. But I recognize that this is just my point of view, and in an NPOV encyclopedia I have no right to impose this on others. Like many non-Christians, I have no problem using 2005 in common discourse as a convention and as a convenience — but never because it is "the yearof our Lord." And to tell me that I must accept it, not as a convention but as the year of our Lord, is to impose your point of view on me. I will not impose my POV on you and force you to call this year 5765. Do not force me to use BC/AD. We can come to a mutually acceptable NPOV convention, and that is to use your number (2005) but stop saying that it "is the year of our Lord." He's not my Lord. And if the policy says BC/AD is acceptable, that policy should be changed.
Slrubenstein |
Talk 15:06, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Very briefly. Also, please see Talk:Jesus/Archive_15#Style_guides_and_Peer_Review (a trick I learned from someone's signature!). And at the grave risk of intense POV, welcome back, SR! El_C 15:46, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
I'm not clear that they all are. Not using an explicitly Christian reference in an article on Judaism is no more or less PoV than using that same reference in an article on Christianity; the status of NPoV is unchanged from religion to religion. To exaggerate the example in order to bring out the problem: it would be wrong to say in the Judaism article: "Jews wrongly deny that Jesus was the true Messiah through whom alone salvation is possible" — but it would be equally wrong to say that in this article (and to defend it by asking rhetorically "if we can't proclaim the Christian faith in this article, then where can we proclaim it?"). The wrongness doesn't lie in a mismatch between claim and article, that's fundamentally to misunderstand the nature of NPoV. (The analogy with British/U.S. English fails, because they don't embody claims about the world.)
In non-religious articles the case is less pressing, though personally I'd argue (and do argue) for the use of "BCE/CE" throughout Wikipedia, as it is in other respectable and respected publications and reference works (as indicated by El C's invaluable list above). Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 17:03, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Hey, um... not sure where to insert this, but I just wanted to say that I have no dog in the CE/BC-AD fight, but I do feel strongly that there should be a note explaining why Jesus is thought to have been born 6 years before when the calendar starts. So whatever y'all end up deciding, please leave that parenthetical note in--whether you say B.C. or B.C.E. --
Chowbok 19:13, May 10, 2005 (UTC)
And yes, I could go on. All of these books are available on Amazon today.
Amazon uses BCE/CE in its categories.
[8] Incidetnally, not a single Peer Review publication is listed in this pronouncedly undated book list sample.El_C 23:15, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
It suggests plenty, I thought, because obviously the trend has been (and remains) gradual. The point is, as I demonstrated above is that newer publications (<2000) would be more representative of that 'trend.' Second, for better or worse, books are a somewhat poor indication of Peer Review, in part, because Journal standards tend to be kept more up to date. Third, I didn't spend more than 15 minutes either, so we have no verificiation whether newer editions (if any) of the books you listed employ it now (so date ties into that, too). Fourth, what I was able to demonstrate —and I do think it's worth acknowledgment— is that Oxford University Press (which hosts the first book) now uses the new dating system, or that the Columbia University historian of the 2nd one who used AD/BC in the title of his book, now uses it, too. Authoritative sources by any stretch. **** Now, the motivation behind BCE/CE itself (in the scholarship) are a product of POV, or rather what was percieved as counter-POV, mainly due to religion. That's why OUP and Oxford scholars such as Mel are now using it (that is, it happned/is happening outside of Wikipedia). I think it's safe to say that within the more professional scholarship —for our purposes, specifically, that which writes about the time/space of Jeses (which is SlR's field)— it is viewed as more modern, secular, or at least, prefrable. Therefore, if I am right about all this, about the role it plays in the scholarship (where Jorunals rather than books are more indicative of Peer Views), that it isn't limited to OUP but also many other authoritative sources, et cetera, etc., then we are at the question I posed to jguk bellow: should npov be evaluated in accordance with common or specialized use in this case. As I said there, I was in favour of BCE/CE because I thought npov is to be guided by the latter, but many people here insist it should be the former. And, as I also said, I haven't really read the npov article closely (due to lack of interest on my part!), so I leave that as an open-ended question for everyone else. If I could (and I will) criticize SlR, I think one of the problems here had been his tendency to make the argument as if this was the scholarship: saying that he was offended (unless he was being esp. subtle, though then, I would argue, somewhat unclear) by it. I don't think it's pertinent one way or the other. Whether he (and Neutrality and others) was offended has nothing to do with whether the experts are moving towards its use (esp. Peer-wise), or not. And whether npov should follow their lead, or not. That's the bottom line, the rest is a diversion. I realize I'm repeating myself (or am I?), but I seem to be having a real difficult time getting this point across. Honestly, it's the only reason I'm still involved in this dispute, a dispute of an issue which dosen't particularly interest me, because I seem to be failing to do so. To do what? The point! What point? Exactly. El_C 11:20, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
Question to Slrubenstein: You make excellant points and all very valid. It is my understanding (and I may be wrong) the BCE originated with certain rabbinical scholars in perhaps the past half century, and your arguement makes an excellent explaination of their use of it. However, as I understood it, their use of it was intended for students of their writting and beliefs. My question is, do you believe they intended their concept to be hijacked by atheists, those at enmity with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Thx. Nobs 17:37, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Inserting for the record: ad hominem adverb & adjective phrase Latin (= to the person). Of an argument, etc.: directed to the individual, personal; appealing to an opponent's known personal views rather than reason. Such an argument, which plays upon an opponent's own premises, seeking to draw from them a conclusion that is rejected by that same opponent, is a legitimate debating tactic, unlike the kind of argumentum ad hominem that is really no more than a personal attack.Source: Oxford Essential Dictionary of Foreign Terms in English Nobs 18:23, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
To Silversmith: You might want to start a new discussion topic...your method of inserting above other comments without indenting to make clear which comments are responding to whom has sort of disrupted the flow of the conversation. For example, the way you stuck in your comment above jayjg's makes it look like his comment at 17:14 and also my comment at 17:54 responding to Mel Etitis are a response to yours. It makes it confusing for others to follow. -- MPerel ( talk | contrib) 19:06, May 9, 2005 (UTC)
First major contributor did not use AD, he referred to it. He did use BC, but "it is often assumed" can hardly be called ringing support for its usage. Anyway, is there really a policy on first major contributor? The server is bogged down, so I had to stop searching. So far I found Wikipedia:Ownership of articles and something about Be bold. Also Spelling preferences specifically overrides first major contributor... Here's the relevant passage from First major contributor though...
It is often assumed that Jesus was born in the year 4 or 5 B.C. and died at age 33.
The nomenclature of B.C. (Before Christ) and A.D. (Anno Domini - 'Year of our Lord') for years was based on a mistaken calculation of the year of his birth.
-- JimWae 21:40, 2005 May 9 (UTC)
Silversmith above provides a long list of books that use BC/AD, but like others of his point of view, he mistakes quantity for neutrality. That many books use a POV term does not make that POV term NPOV. It is not a popularity contest. We know most Westerners use BC and AD, but we at Wikipedia have this "NPOV" policy and that is what is at issue. Above, Baas writes "Keep BC/AD. Wikipedia is not a forum for revisionist history." which again shows the intellectual dishonesty or dullness of that position. This has nothing to do with revisionist history. To state that many people do not believe that Jesus was Christ or our Lord is not revisionism; the NT itself observes that some people do not accept Jesus as Christ and Lord. Wikipedia should as well. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:17, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
The one and only advantage of using BC/AD is that it is more common. Its disadvantages include:
Given the above, I fail to see why BC/AD is being supported so vehemently, and the arguments of the supporters seem to boil down to:
There also seem to be some who consider the most common term as the one we should here, but that is not true, especially when the common term espouses a particular POV or causes offense to a certain group of people. For example, we have People's Republic of China, instead of the more common China, and we have Republic of China, instead of the more common Taiwan. srs 07:26, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
In comparing the "policies" on spelling and era styles, I notice the disclaimer on both guides (see American vs. British spelling style guidelines and BCE/CE vs. BC/AD era style guidelines) emphasizing that these are style guidelines and not policy. Both guides state at the top of each respective page: "New contributors are reminded that clear, informative and unbiased writing is always more important than presentation and formatting. Writers are not expected or required to follow all or any these rules." Therefore the overriding principle in choosing the style to be used in a particular article is NPOV. I think the case can be and has been made for BCE/CE being the more NPOV terminology, which is why so many publishing houses are going in that direction as El_C demonstrated above. -- MPerel ( talk | contrib) 02:19, May 10, 2005 (UTC)
I beleive all the evidence brought forward thus far weighs in the direction that BCE/CE originated among Christian academics and Talmudic scholars, and not among secular academia. This is an important distinction to be made before the term is exposed to popular abuse. Nobs 22:08, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
May I point out that the BCE/CE-system is used by preference by Jehovah's Witnesses all over the world, though I don't know what that means for this debate... Switisweti 11:09, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
"Why are [we] doing something different?"
We? Are we
Oxford University Press, etc.? Are they not authoritative? Why are they doing it? Incidentally, I, myself, am not offended by AD/BC, I'm almost certain I employed both dating systems on Wikipedia without noticing which one I used when. But since I focus on 20th Century history, it's usually an aside. Whereas here, the fundamentals of the npov policy (which I have heard of, though admittedly, only in passing) seem to be at stake —perhaps I'm mistaken in thinking it's so closely related to
Peer Review...(?) Bah. :)
El_C 07:05, 10 May 2005 (UTC)This is a response to Nobs, Rangerdude, and Silversmith, although again these points realy are directed to everyone and consider the issue as a whole. Nobs suggests that BCE/CE was developed by Talmud scholars and asks how I feel about it having been hijacked by atheists. Nobs, I think your question suggests a misunderstanding of the issue. Personally, I do not know who first coined the terms BCE and CE, and I do not care. However, ler's say it was Jacob Neusner. It is true that he is a scholar of the Talmud, but whatever his degree of religious observance (I have no idea whether he is shomrei mitzvot — an observer of the commandments, or an apikoros — what Orthodox Jews might consider a heretic. What I do know is that he is a critical scholar, meaning he applies the methods of critical history and comparative literature to the study of Jewish texts, which leads him to question those texts' claims about their origins and truthfulness. In other words, I think that his being Jewish is less important than his being a historian or textual critic like Eugene Genovese or Hayden White. As I suggested before, if he were writing from a Jewish point of view, he would identify this year as 5765, and the year Jesus was born as 3756. But he didn't, because he was not writing from a Jewish point of view but rather from the point of view of a critical scholar as committed (or, in this instance, more committed) to NPOV as (than) us. I have no idea why you use the phrase "hijacked by atheists" for two reasons. First of all, hijacking involves stealing someone's property. But as any Wikipedian should know, ideas are not quite property. We cite other sources all the time, indeed, we are supposed to cite other sources all the time. So of course Neusner expects other people to cite him, engage his ideas, and, if people find his arguments compelling, build on them. This is the scholarly enterprise &mndash; don't you agree? (if you don't, why are you involved in writing an encyclopedia?). Second, I have no reason to believe that the other people who use "BCE" and "CE" are atheists or not. I imagine some do not believe in God, and others do believe in God. Ihonestly do not see how it matters. What is at issue is not whether one believes in God. What is at issue is whether one believes that all human beings believe that Jesus is Christ and Lord. And as the New Testement makes clear, the Apostles certainly did not believe that all people believed that Jesus is Christ and Lord. Why do you believe this? Slrubenstein | Talk 16:00, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
Rangerdude takes it upon himself (herself?) to "warn" me against insulting other people. I have not insulted anyone, I have however criticized other people's positions which again is basic to scholarly enterprise. If you can't handle it, go away. If you can handle it, understand that I will criticize your views when I feel they are flawed. You say my premise is flawed: "As you have been shown many times, Wikipedia's NPOV policy says absolutely nothing barring the use of BC/AD and Wikipedia's Style Manual explicitly condones it as one of two acceptable dating systems." I honestly have no idea how you can write this with a straight face. Let us look at your own words: the style policy allows both BC/AD and BCE/CE. Fine. But this only means that the style policy will not help us resolve this debate (see also MPerel's astute and relevant observation [13]. You are not only saying "AD" is permissible, YOU are also saying that "CE" is permissible! Your argument supports my view as much as it supports yours. In fact, this policy cannot and will never decide this issue, since as a matter of style it sees both systems as acceptable. But not only is your argument flawed; you do not understand my argument. I am NOT criticizing "BC/AD" on the grounds of style. Therefore the style policy is not relevant. I am criticizing it on the grounds of NPOV. Style issues aside, "BC" and "AD" are abbreviations for claims that Jesus is Christ and Lord. That is a point of view held by Christians but not held by others. So it is POV, plain and simple. Conversely, "BCE" and "CE" are not POV, because they make no claims about Jesus. They do not say he is Lord, but neither do they say he is not Lord. A devout Christian can use "BCE" and "CE without feeling that he or she is betraying his or her faith, because using these terms in no way negates their faith. What these terms do is signal that this dating system is a convention that people use even if they do not believe Jesus is Christ and Lord. If you do not understand this, I do not need to insult you, you are insulting yourself. In any event, I would think it is clear to everyone here that our NPOV policy is far more important than a style policy. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:00, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
Silversmith misunderstands the import of El_C's list, because s/he thinks that his/her list of people who use AD/BC is comparable and cancels out El_C's. Again, he/she is mistaken. The lists are comparable only in that they both illustrate that many people use either system. But no one has ever contested the fact that many people use BC/AD The only thing that we contest is that BC/AD violates NPOV policy. The purpose of El_C's list is simply to show that there is an NPOV alternative. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:00, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
Susvolans, please explain why "Common Era" is POV. And please explain why "Before Christ" and "In the Year of our Lord" is not POV. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:25, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
"Common Era is just plain stupid?" Well Tomer, I guess when you wrote that I was not the only one resorting to insults, you meant yourself. But I don't mind the insulting language. What I do mind is that you either have not read what I wrote, or refuse to respond. I explained why BCE/CE are most definitely not insulting to Christians or Christianity, and I explained to whom the Common Era is common. Now let me ask you a question: when you say "christendom," what do you mean? DO you mean the world consisting only of all Christians? If so, you are wrong, because many non Christians agree by convention to call this year 2005. Or by "christendom" do you mean all people who use the Gregorian calendar? If this is what you mean, you are really insulting me and violating NPOV. I am not a Christian and although I call this year 2005 it insults me, and it is inaccurate, to call me a member of Christendom. If you believe that "Christendom" — the rule of Christianity – should rule Wikipeida, you have no business here at all. How dare you exclude all non-Christians (or demand that non-Christians accept Christian practices)? What does "Common Era" mean? It means an an era common to many people of many faiths, including Christianity but yes believe it or not including non-Christians too, and refusing to privilege a Christian POV. Why do you think that is stupid? Slrubenstein | Talk 17:25, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
By the way, I assume you are joking when you say we should all use 5765. I agree with you that that is what year we are in. But I recognize that others do not agree. This is the question: can people of different views find common ground or not? This is what Wikipedia's NPOV policy is all about, and this is what the switch to "Common Era" is all about. It really sounds to me like the people who support AD 2005 or 5765 over 2005 CE are saying that we pick one view or another, but there can be no neutral view. If you feel that way, how can you commit yourself to Wikipedia? Slrubenstein | Talk 17:31, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
Nobs, I appreciate your thoughtful comment. We are closer than I previously thought, though I respectfully disagree with you on some important issues. When you write " A search on CE/BCE finds for the most part, Christian bible schools and Jewish sites that use the term, repsectfully of each other. The Christian bible schools use C.E. to acknowledge it may not be "anno domini" for all members of society; the Jewish use C.E. to acknowledge the rise and dominance (in population numbers) of the gentile church over the past 2 millenia." I agree wholeheartedly with you. But when using "common era," I think that the only thing Jews and Christians have in common is there desire to live together with mutual respect. It is true that Jews and Christians worship the same God, this is something else they have in common — but I do not think this is the reason for Jews accepting the Gregorian calendar and Christians accepting CE. I think it is as simple as Jews accepting the fact that Christian Europe has set the terms for many global customs, and Christians accepting the fact that however widespread some customs may be, they are now used by and in a way belong to non-Christians. Clearly, one does not have to be of an "Abrahamic" faith to use the Gregorian/CE system -- Hindus can, for example, and do. As far as atheists coopting BCE/CE, Nobs, with all due respect, this simply does not matter. This is not a chatroom for debating religion or atheism, it is an NPOV encyclopedia. No editor here should care about another editor's beliefs. But we should all care about NPOV. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:39, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
Slrubenstein, nothing about what I said about "Common Era" was meant to be insulting toward you or toward anyone else. I maintain that it's just plain stupid. If you have a lot of stock riding upon its usage, I would say it's probably a good investment, but that the phrase is still stupid. It's not "common", and it's based retroactively on an event whose dating is undeterminable, to say nothing of unverifiable. If people were to say "Christian Era", then I might be less critical, since that's what the dating system is supposed to be indicative of. BCE as "before the christian era" is much less nonsensical than "before the common era", since, as has been pointed out numerous times, and not just by me, there is nothing "common" about "this era". Even saying that cheeses was born in 6 BCE with that meaning, is much less nonsensical than saying he was born 6 years BC. That is, as I have said several times already, the only reason I'm opposing the use of BC/AD in this article. If you find insulting my saying that the phraseology "Common Era" is just plain stupid, then I would suggest that you're perhaps too emotionally attached, as bizarre as that sounds to me, to this non-issue. Tersely but respectfully yours. Tomer TALK 19:48, May 10, 2005 (UTC)
I do not understand ClemMcGann's statement. How frequently a phrase is used has nothing to do with whether it is POV or NPOV. If you seriously think that frequency of use proves NPOV, you profoundly misunderstand our NPOV policy and I urge you to read it carefully. Frequency of use is simply irrelevant to POV/NPOV. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:36, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
By the way, Jguk who earlier reverted my changes has yet to explain why BC and AD conform to our NPOV policy. Moreover, Susvolans has yet to explain whose or what POV "Common Era" expresses (don't say the POV of people who use CE, that is tautological. The reason AD is POV is not because it expresses the point of view of people who use AD, but rather because it express the Christian POV; people who use CE are doing so precisely to be neutral. If you call the Neutral Point of View a "Point of View" and conclude that it thus violates our NPOV policy, your logic is really screwed up. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:42, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
Tomer, I have actually heard some people say that CE means "Christian Era" and I have no objection to that interpretation, which you seem more comfortable with. Nevertheless, I still do not understand why you question "common." "Common" means shared by many people, and indeed many people, including people of different faiths and no faith, share the Gregorian calendar. This seems like a straightforward use of the word "common." The point is, they have the calendar in common, but they do not have belief that Jesus is Christ and Lord in common. Also, I have noticed that you often talk about the Gregorian calendar and the BC/AD system at the same time. I think this is unconstructive, and certainly misses the point of many people who object to AD. As I said, people share the Gregorian calendar (i.e. "2005"), they do not share belief in Jesus as Lord (i.e. "AD). I understand you are saying that the Gregorian calendar is derived from an assumption about Jesus' birth, and an assumption that happens to be wrong to boot. But the same thing can mean very different things in different contexts. For Christians, 2005 may very well mean "2005 years since Jesus' birth." When Jews use "2005" they know that Christians think it is 2005 years since Jesus' birth. But that is not why Jews use "2005." The reason they use "2005" is because it has become a convention shared by (i.e. common to) many people worldwide. It is a convenience -- rather than have to convert the Jewish year to the Christian year to the Muslim year to the Hindu year whenever different people try to communicate, it makes sense to pick a convention. There are of course historical reasons for why the Gregorian calendar became the convention rather than the Muslim calendar — reasons that have more to do with European commercial and military prowess, than with Christianity. Nevertheless, it is a convention, just a convention. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:36, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
I propose - in an effort to end the revert war - since this is an issue for all of Wikipedia and not just this artice, that the original version be maintained until the policy is reviewed and a decision is made to adopt the system of BCE/CE over BC/AD, or not. The article should be left in it's original state until that time, as that is the most common usage, and the most common usage on Wikipedia. There is also no definite consensus either way. Many Wikipedians do not even know this debate is happening as they have no reason to come to this article. You may argue that we don't need to decide either way, like with English vs. American spelling, but I think this talk page clearly shows that we do. This is a complete waste of energy. We are arguing the same points over and over again. This is my proposal, and if agreed upon, there should be no further discussion of the issue here, or reverting of the article. I don't know the best procedure for having such a policy vote, I haven't been here that long. I hope someone can come up with a solution. Please address this proposal below. And just to make a point: I would probably vote on Wikipedia adopting the new BCE/CE system, as that seems to be the way the academic world is going. -- Silversmith 21:57, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
I do not see the point to or value of this proposal. Silversmith and Tomer misconstrue Jayjg's point, which really is that all Wikipedia articles are works in progress. Period. Earlier versions have no priority just because they happen to be earlier. Indeed, if you really believed in the ideals of Wikipedia, which I am beginning to doubt, you (Silversmith and Tomer) would argue that the most recent versions of articles have priority. This is because the idea of Wikipedia is that over time through the contributions of many articles will improve over time. Moreover, Silversmith and Tomer keep trying to switch the issues. Yes, the style guidelines (Which as MPerel pointed out are not binding) say that AD and CE are equally acceptable. "Equally" means that this style policy gives you no grounds for objecting to CE as a matter of style — just as it gives us no grounds for objecting to AD as a matter of style. But we are not objecting to AD as a matter of style. We are objecting to it because of a whole other different policy — our NPOV policy. NPOV is one of the most, if not the most, important policy we have here and there is no question that it trumps issues of style (i.e. what may be acceptable or even good style must be deleted if it violates NPOV; what may be poor style is acceptable if it maintains NPOV). Silversmith and Tomer, please stop confusing two different issues. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:59, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
You have no understanding of our NPOV policy. AD is POV, CE is NPOV. I and many others have explained why. It is POV to say Jesus is Christ. It is NPOV to say that many different groups have a particular calendar in common. To say that the invention of BCE/CE expressed a POV shows that you are ignorant of what we here at Wikipedia mean by POV. "NPOV" is not itself a POV that violates our NPOV policy — you are just a troll making a mockery of our policies. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:43, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Silversmith, I am sorry. But what frustrates me is that although I have responded to your statements, you never seem to respond to mine. I have explained why BC/AD is POV (many people do not believe Jesus is Christ). I have given reasons why BCE/CE is NPOV (it makes no claims about religious beliefs, pro or con). I have explained why the fact that people came up with BCE/CE for a reason is not sufficient to make the term POV (our own policy explains why NPOV is not itself a POV). I have explained why it does make a difference (you are conflating/confusing two things: the Gregorian calendar and the BC/AD terminology; they should be treated seperately. I, like most non-Christians, can accept the Gregorian calendar as a convention because we accept that some people do think Jesus was Christ and his birth was important. But that does not mean we should, in addition, be required to say Jesus is our Lord). I have made these points several times; others have made similar points. And you keep ignoring them. That is disheartening. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:30, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
I propose that:
Chameleon 01:24, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
This is a fine proposal if we are talking only about matters of style. If we are talking about our NPOV policy (which is far more important than our style conventions), it is a terrible proposal. NPOV by its very nature is not about US versus UK standards, it is about neutrality. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:03, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Chameleon - You state that the tide appeared to be turning "after Jayjg attempted to, let's say, stuff the ballot box." Would this be the vote recruitment you are referring to? See here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here. IOW, somebody didn't like the way the vote was going among people who came here to participate on their own so he rounded up all his friends to invade the discussion. I did think it was odd that after two days of evenly split voting, all of a sudden a bunch of editors who never participated in this discussion suddenly showed up, cast a quick vote in favor of Jayjg's position, and then departed. Now I know why. Rangerdude 04:10, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Who says this isn't and educational exercise. It's possible 10 billion human souls have walked the face of this planet over the past two millenia. I had no idea they were so ignorant until a wiki poll set the matter straight in a vote 20-13. Nobs 01:50, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Chameleon and Rangerdude are being very unfair to Jayjg. As far as I know, it was I who first solicited the particpation of others, many others, not Jayjg (just go to my page and look at "contributions" for May 8th, when I posted an RfC and also solicited several individuals. Moreover, the charge of "ballot stuffing" is ridiculous, especially at Wikipedia where people who might have knowledge about or interest in an article are supposed to get involved. And when I recruited people to participate, there was no vote and I did not ask anyone to vote any particular way. I also resent Chameleon's vague anti-Semitism. To bring race in when we are trying to discuss neutrality is utterly uncalled for. In any event, many of the people I contacted are not Jewish, or at least I have no reason to think they are Jewish (e.g. John Kenney, Jayjg, and Mustafaa). And another thing, some of the people I invited to participate were or are vigorously opposed to my own view: I left a message on Tomer's talk page and it is obvious that he and I are entirely opposed; I also invited MPerel, and although he has since changed his mind, at the time he was opposed to my view. Jayjg and JimWae (both of whom I notified) and I happen to agree on this matter, but there are many examples in the recent past where they and I vigorously disagreed. What I value is open and intelligent discussion. On the other hand, Chameleon and Rangerdude's complaints are unfounded, signs of intellectual bankrupcy or cowardice (because it doesn't matter how many people disagree with you, what matters is their reasons and the ability and requirement that all of us have a rational conversation about the issues; if you think many people oppose your point of view, try using reason to change their minds! Or try to take their own arguments seriously!), and diversionary. Let's stick to the issue rather than try to assasinate Jayjg's character. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:17, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Ballot-stuffing refers to people voting more than once, or votes cast by non-living people. This is not the case here; each vote is by a real editor, and no one has voted twice. Rangerdude simply cannot stand being in the minority. And he is in the minority. It does not matter how or why various people voted because every wikipedian has a right to express their view. Rangerdude, stop — and before you say anything else, please go through our policies and tell us which policy Jayjg has violated. If he has not violated any policy, he cannot be faulted for what he (or I) did. Tell us what policy we have violated. Please provide a link to that policy too. Thank you. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:30, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Rangerdude is just a troll making a mockery of our policies. There is no policy against campaigning (if that is what Jayjg actually did) and all RD is saying is that anything someone does that RD doesn't like is "lack of good faith" is absurd on its face. Listen to Tomer's good points rather than continue to get more and more hysterical. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:46, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
And bring also anyone who likely to participate constructively. I extend this advice to every single individual here, and I don't mean anyone especially, though especially Rangerdude. Let the "invasion" begin. From someone whom SlR contacted and did not arrive here independently, El_C 10:51, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Okay. Let's do the date thing the NPOV way. The policy says "represent all views". So represent all views. 6 BC/BCE. AD 4 CE. What's the problem? We don't have to choose. Include both. We've established that "BC" is considered biased by some editors and that "BCE" is considered anti-Christian by some, so clearly there is no term that is acceptable to both (unless we date the year from the invention of the metre ;-)), so why not just use both? Problem solved. You may now return to your pointless debate about it. GN User:203.103.60.206 Sig added by -- Silversmith 01:43, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
This would be confusing - it would also make each year look like a vacuum cleaner model, jguk 05:51, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
I have to say I find your attitude utterly intolerant. You can plainly see that there is a lot of strong feeling about the dates thing. You cannot claim you are sparing the ignorant, because I have proposed including both sets of dates, so that all can understand them. So basically you are saying my way or nothing. Even JimWae, a staunch supporter of a switch to CE, is willing to give it a go. I know that Jayjg is online too, and he's not afraid to revert what he doesn't like! Why not give it a think? If everyone can just swallow it, we have resolved the problem and can all move on to creating content. Grace Note 06:18, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
I also agree with silversmith. Sam Spade 12:17, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Has anyone ever provided a rational explanation for why BCE and CE are "anti-Christian?" Nobs, above argued that it is not, and gave reasons. I've yet to see reasons for why BCE is "anti-Christian." This is tantamount to saying "NPOV is anti-Christian." Our NPOV policy requires us to say things like some people believe that Jesus is Christ — but not everyone! Is this anti-Christian? If not, why is saying BCE, which only means that many people do not believe Jesus is Christ, anti-Christian? It doesn't make sense to me. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:21, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
I do not see the "hijacking." The words "Common Era" or "Before Common Era" in no way imply that God does not exist. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:31, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Whether or not God exists has never been an issue here. I do not think that even "Christian Era" takes the Christian POV, it simply admits that it is an era in Western history dominated by Christianity, which I accept as a fact. As for creating new meanings for old abbreviations, I suppose it is possible, but when people ave been using "BCE and CE" for at least a hundred years, I don't see the point in banishing them from this article. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:55, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
NPOV means that, for reporting purposes, we accept the societal norms that we are in. We use the most common terms as understood and used by our audience. Here our audience is anyone who might be searching for information in a web-based English language encyclopaedia. And it is clear what the norms are here. The overwhelming majority (90%+) of that audience use BC/AD in preference to BCE/CE. Based on that overwhelming majority, BC/AD is what we should use - to do anything else begs "WHY?" And you can't answer that without telling me your POV.
Note that in a different scenario, you would come to a different conclusion about the same issue. Suppose we had a journal written by academics for academics from various university departments where BCE/CE was overwhelmingly prevalent - so much so that the journal's style guide prefers that notation. What sort of message would it present if you persisted in writing to that journal, submitting letters, etc. using BC/AD style. Why would you be breaking the norms? What message are you trying to give? What's your POV?
But the point here is that BC/AD notation is what our readers (and our writers) prefer. By a long shot. There's no contest.
I appreciate that some contributors are more used to BCE/CE than BC/AD - but they form a small minority of our readership. I ask them to accept societal norms here. There is no reason not to.
There are a number of side-effects to the principle of using most common terms - they make the reader comfortable with the style, and if the style is welcoming and familiar, they are more likely to stay. Ask me why I read The Times rather than The Daily Telegraph, The Independent or The Guardian - and it is purely a question of my preferring its style. The same is true of online encyclopaedias. If you are unsure - next ask yourself this. If WP had adopted a strong policy of only allowing American English (swap for British English if you are American!) and rigorously enforced a style guide, so that we made arbitrary changes to contributions to comply with it - do you really think WP would have the breadth of coverage and contributors that it currently does?
Style is important - as is conforming to societal norms (if we are to have a NPOV encyclopaedia). In this instance, there is no alternative - NPOV is non-negotiable and not susceptible to a vote. We must use the forms preferred overwhelmingly by 90%+ of our readership. Kind regards, jguk 05:48, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
The BC/AD vs BCE/CE debate demonstrates the NPOV of the editors and the debate does not consider as relevant the expectations of the audience. (Whatever happened to writing for your audience. [19]) The article on Common Era in wikipedia itself suggests that BCE/CE "is most often used by academics, especially in the fields of non-Western history, theology, archaeology, and anthropology." And the referenced Chicago Manual of Style provides what I consider to be a NPOV approach:
Q. Do you recommend the use of BCE (Before the Common Era) and CE (Common Era) instead of BC and AD? Has the debate about these been settled or is it still in flux? A. We are not aware of any intense debate. The choice between one or the other is up to the writer and should be flagged only if the customs of a specific field or community seem to be in danger of being (unwittingly) violated. Many authors use BC and AD because they are familiar and conventionally understood. Those who want to avoid reference to Christianity are free to do so. [20]
As this is an article about Jesus it seems appropriate to use the BC/AD designation since the designation was created to coincide with his birth. BC/BCE applies a new (supposedly neutral) label to the same convention and seems out of place in an article about the person on whom the starting refernce point is based. Trödel| talk 12:45, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Jguk is so incredibly wrong it amazes me. Above, MPerel asks Jguk to respond to my criticism of his view and he replies "It is NPOV because we use it merely because it is the most common formulation." This is simply wrong. W-R-O-N-G. I have explained why several times. The popularity of a phrase or the frequency of its use has nothing at all to do with its neutrality. Why don't we look at the actual NPOV policy (which, Jimbo has said, is non-negotiable):
That Jesus is Christ is not a fact no matter how many people believe so. That Jesus is Lord is not a fact no matter how many people believe so. On the contrary, that Jesus is Christ and that Jesus is Lord is, undeniably, incontrovertably, "a piece of information about which there is some dispute." Even if four billion people believed Jesus is Christ, to assert this as a fact would violate NPOV. I have asked several people to explain why BCE/CE violates NPOV and no one can give me an answer. But I can explain very simply why it is NPOV. First, it claims that the Gregorian calendar is common to many different groups. This is a fact. Second, it implies that many people do not accept Jesus as Christ or Lord. This too is a fact. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:33, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Silversmith, I now realize you are a new user. Welcome to Wikipedia, and we welcome your contributions. However, if you want to avoid potential conflicts, please familiarize yourself with our policies. Some policies are really just guidelines (like our style policies) but some policies are firm and non-negotiable. Wikipedia: Neutral point of view is one such policy. I urge you to read it. In cases of Wikipedia policy, do not turn to dictionaries — turn to our policy pages (if you do not know where they are, go to the community portal and you will see). In answer to your question, our policy is:
Remember, this policy is non-negotiable. Now, if I understand you correctly, you are in part suggesting that NPOV leads us to include multiple points of view in articles. You are right. For example, an article on Jesus should include multiple points of view: Jesus was the messiah; Jesus was a false messiah; Jesus was a prophet; Jesus was the son of God, and so on. Including these multiple points of view is one important way of achieving an NPOV article. In the case of any discussion of the terms, BC and BCE, NPOV requires us to say that some people use BC, and others use BCE. But the argument here is not about how people in general use these terms, it is about which of these terms to use in this article and many argue that BC is a term that reflects a POV and BCE does not. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:24, 11 May 2005 (UTC) — As many argue that BCE/CE is POV and BC/AD is not. -- Silversmith 19:27, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Please tell us where in the NPOV policy it says this. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:40, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Here it is: from WP NPOV policy.
The scholarship arguement is a fallacy seeing there has been NO evidence presented of its origin and/or common usage outside of religious scholarship. In otherwords, proponents of adopting the BCE/CE standard are basing their arguement on the POV of religious scholars. I challenge anyone to disprove the above premise. Nobs 21:28, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Did nobody read the bit of the NPOV policy that says that NPOV does not mean "use the most neutral expression"? It means "express all views fairly". It simply doesn't matter why people have one view or another -- we are precluded from analysis of why. An expression cannot be "more NPOV" than another in any real sense. Slrubenstein, your argument boils down to the belief that AD expresses a POV you don't like, and CE does not and is consequently more "neutral". But it's not "NPOV" to exclude POVs you don't like! Nor is it "NPOV" to push for "neutral" expressions. It's NPOV to push for expressions that fairly represent all views and opinions. Okay, I'd say there are three groups of people with views on AD: those who think that AD means "Jesus is Lord" and like that, those who think it means "Jesus is Lord" and don't like it, and those who don't think it has any such meaning. (I'm simplifying -- there are also plenty who don't care and haven't thought about it.) You are wishing to exclude the first and third groups and only cater to the POV of the second. This is not "NPOV" by any means. Now about CE, there are also three views: those who think it is neutral, those who think it is anti-Christian, and those who think it is a ridiculous PC contrivance. Again, you only wish to include one of those views. Neutral, you can argue for; NPOV, no way. Grace Note 00:29, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
Here's what I think the crucial question is: Does use of BC/AD communicate the author's POV? If it necesssarily does—if by reading text with "BC" or "AD" in it one can ascertain that the author asserts a belief in Jesus as Christ and Lord—then its use in Wikipedia is POV and should not be accepted; BCE/CE should be used instead as the next best alternative. If the author's POV cannot be determined by their use of BC/AD, then its use in Wikipedia is NPOV and should as a matter of style be favored over BCE/CE in most articles because of its far greater currency in the vernacular. Alanyst 17:42, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
Alanyst, I agree with you about Thursday because there aren't many worshipers of Thor these days, and because if worshipers of Thor went around the world converting people to Thor-worship or killing them, it was a very very long time ago. But it was not at all long ago that Christians killed non-Christians, and quite recently that Christians went around the world trying to convert non-Christians; indeed, it still happens today. You can't compare AD with Thursday because the contexts are so different. Sociologists have studied relations of domination for a very long time, and have discovered that the dominant position is often "unmarked" -- for example, if Whites are talking about a White musician they will just say "x, the pianist" but many times if the musician is Black they will say "x the Black pianist." They may think that they do not hate Blacks, they may not think they are discriminating against Blacks, but it is nevertheless evidence of the inequality between Whites and Blacks. Slaveowners thought their slaves were happy; rich people think poor people could be rich if they just weren't so lazy. These are not strictly analogous to the case at hand, but that isn't why I bring these examples up. My point is that people who are in a privileged position seldom admit it and often do not even see it. People who are not in a privileged position, however, are acutely sensitive to these power dynamics (which is why you hear a lot of Whites telling Blacks they are "too sensitive" or "have an attitude problem" but seldom the other way around). My point: the very claim that AD and BC are NPOV, which I do believe you sincerely believe, is actually just more evidence of how POV they are. The effect of claiming that they are NPOV is either to compel everyone else to accept your POV unquestioningly, or to enable you to tell anyone who says "No, they are not neutral, and you are trying to impose your view of the world on me" that they are being ridiculous &— in other words, to tell people you disagree with to shut up, or to enable you simply not to listen to them. Don't listen to all the people whom you offend, if it makes you happy. But don't kid yourself that these terms are NPOV, claiming so is just the newest scam to get people who are different from you to be like you. I can respect you, but don't think you can compel me to be like you Slrubenstein | Talk 18:56, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
Alanyst, I am afraid you are getting defensive, which might mean I was offensive. If so, I apologize. But you misunderstand my point. I explicitly said that a once POV term can become NPOV, and I explained why this hasn't happened for the particular term in question. I also explained the criteria. I am sorry you missed it, but all I would do is repeat exactly what I wrote at the very beginning of my comment to you, to which you just responded. As for your other questions: no, I never suggested that a member of a minority or dominated group cannot make POV claims, the do so all the times. From the very beginning of this discussion I gave an example of a POV claim I could make and all Jews could make; I admitted that it would be POV, and said that for that reason I would not use it — I am sorry you missed this too (it was in my response to Grace Note, in this section). Nor did I ever claim that members of a majority or dominant group are incapable of making NPOV claims; I did not say that, and nothing I wrote above suggests that. The fact that there are Christian Whites who use BCE and CE is simple proof that they can make NPOV claims. The fact that a Christian contributing to this article might write "According to the New Testament, Jesus was resurrected ..." as opposed to the POV "Three days later, Jesus was resurrected" is another perfectly good example of a Christian making an NPOV claim. I regret that you so completely misinterpreted my words.
I will try again: Alanyst, our NPOV policy states,
All I was trying to explain above, is that this is another example of an unconscious bias. It is not a geographical bias, as in the example in our policy. But it is still an unconscious bias, and one that I am trying to explain to you. My point is that members of a dominant group often do not recognize that some things they say or do are not universally shared but rather reflect their particular point of view. Note my use of the word "often." "Often" does not mean "always." But I do believe this is a fact. How to respond? Simple: listen, with an open mind, to people different from you, and understand that they may legitimately see something in your words or deeds that you do not see. This does not believe that any and all complaints by members of a minority or dominated group are true by any means. It only means that you concede that you may be wrong and they may be right. How do you find out? Through a conversation, of course. And for a couple of days I and several other people, including non-Jews, have given reasons for our objections to BC/AD. You also ask, "Can a non-privileged person's complaint of POV-ness actually be a matter of their own personal interpretation and not actual proof of POV?" The answer is, of course! Of course my criticism of BC/AD reflects my point of view. In fact, I thought that in my last few comments I have been making that clear! But Alanyst, the fact that my objection to AD reflects my POV does not mean that CE is POV. I object to AD because I am not Christian. But your objections to CE are not because you are not Jewish. And I am not asking you to give up your own POV. You are more than welcome to use AD when expressing your personal views. Similarly, I can use 5765 when expressing my views. But if we are going to write an article that is NPOV, we need to come up with something we can have in common. I will give up 5765 and share your Gregorian calendar because it is something most people today have in common. But that does not mean that most people have in common a belief that Jesus is Lord. If you want to participate in a common sphere with people who are different from you, you can't expect people to use "AD." As I said, that does not mean I insist you use 5765. But it seems evident to me that to say that "this is the 2005th year of our Lord Jesus Christ" is point of view, but saying "this is the year 2005 by convention (a convention between people of different faiths) is both accurate and NPOV. There is nothing particularly "Jewish" about BCE/CE. BCE/CE only means that this is a calendar that people of different faith's have in common. Yes, it is implied that the reason that they have this calendar in common is not because they all believe in Jesus Christ as Lord; the reason they have this calendar in common is purely by convention. I just do not see how anyone can be offended by or object to this! Slrubenstein | Talk 20:48, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
I'm quite surprised by Slrubenstein's comments. From what I've seen in the past, he usually seeks to comment on controversial subjects in a scholarly and unpassioned way.
Suppose I make the statement "Julius Caesar was assassinated in 44BC". 99.9% of people would take that statement as conveying the information that Caesar was murdered 2048 years ago.
From what I can see Slrubenstein is interpreting that statement as meaning that Caesar was murdered 2048 years ago, and Jesus Christ is our Lord and Saviour!
He also seems to take the view that his viewpoint is NPOV and anyone who disagrees with him is biased.
Unfortunately we are going to get nowhere whilst he digs his heels.
To diffuse the situation, I do suggest that the article does not use "BC" or "AD" more than is necessary - this means that all references to years after 1 BC do not need to be prefixed by "AD", except for the first reference to a year after 1 BC.
I would like to thank Analyst for improving the quality of discussion singlehanded - he makes many good points. I also suggest that this discussion is getting us nowhere. The article has got noticeable poorer in the last 2 or 3 months, and almost all the discussion on talk is about 2 or 3 letters! Kind regards, jguk 19:29, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
AD which means "in the year of our Lord" is inherantly POV, how could you deny it? Here is the comment I am specifically thinking about. I quote your explanation of NPOV, which indeed is ignorant, and quote our policy. You never responded to this comment of mine.
Jguk is so incredibly wrong it amazes me. Above, MPerel asks Jguk to respond to my criticism of his view and he replies "It is NPOV because we use it merely because it is the most common formulation." This is simply wrong. W-R-O-N-G. I have explained why several times. The popularity of a phrase or the frequency of its use has nothing at all to do with its neutrality. Why don't we look at the actual NPOV policy (which, Jimbo has said, is non-negotiable):
That Jesus is Christ is not a fact no matter how many people believe so. That Jesus is Lord is not a fact no matter how many people believe so. On the contrary, that Jesus is Christ and that Jesus is Lord is, undeniably, incontrovertably, "a piece of information about which there is some dispute." Even if four billion people believed Jesus is Christ, to assert this as a fact would violate NPOV. I have asked several people to explain why BCE/CE violates NPOV and no one can give me an answer. But I can explain very simply why it is NPOV. First, it claims that the Gregorian calendar is common to many different groups. This is a fact. Second, it implies that many people do not accept Jesus as Christ or Lord. This too is a fact. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:33, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Jguk, your hysterics do not help. Either BC/AD are arbitrary, or they actually stand for something. If you believe they are arbitrary, then it shouldnot matter to you at all what letters we use, and BCE and CE should be equally acceptable. But you keep arguing — why do you care, if they are just letters? You do care. Obviously, making other people use AD and BC is important to you. I do not understand why, but I do nknow it is wrong. AD and BC do stand for something. That is a fact. You may not know what they stand for, but I do, and I see the POV. This should not surprise you — I am sure that almost every editor at Wikipedia has written something that violated NPOV policy, and they didn't know why, and needed someone to tell them. That is all that is going on here. As I explained above (and you still haven't responded to this) your claim that if something is common it is NPOV is false and has nothing to do with our NPOV policy. It just doesn't matter how many people use BC/AD or not. You simply do not understand our NPOV policy. It states,
You can argue all you want. But it is a fact that BC stands for "before Christ" and that represents a point of view. As such it violates our NPOV policy. You can scream at the top of your voice that many people do not know what the letters mean, so it doesn't matter. But it is a fact that many people do know what these letters mean, and that is enough to raise NPOV issues. You are so intent in forcing me to accept your beliefs (even the belief that "Christ" is something everyone should take for granted and just use, pretending the word means nothing). You just can't stand the fact that I refuse to cave in to your pressure, your pressure that I take for granted what most White Anglo Saxon Protestants take for granted. Too bad. The very fact that I and many others will not bow to your will is itself proof that your beliefs are not universal, not natural. They are your beliefs, not mine, and stop acting like everyone thinks the way you do. This is the antithesis of our NPOV policy. Slrubenstein | Talk 00:54, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
While I agree with you, Troedel, I have to ask why you don't want to include both systems? That's the NPOV solution. Both views are included and catered for. NPOV does not mean "most neutral". It means "everyone represented". It's so easily done that I'm astonished that we're still arguing about it (but probably shouldn't be). Grace Note 23:37, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
I must disagree, Trodel. It's not a group claiming offense where there is none, it is a group that is looking to avoid POV. I'll admit that I use the AD/BC convention when discussing history informally and I even used it about 10 minutes ago in an edit summary without a second thought, but when I am being careful I use the CE/BCE convention because is derived on the most common basis possible as Slrubenstein pointed out. That most people are unable to appreciate that AD has religous point of view implied in the emytology, does not remove the POV from it's usage. I seem to think the CE/BCE convention would be appealing to the widest possible audience. Even if some users didn't understand it immeditially because they were used to AD/BC, it's not like it takes more than 10 seconds to click on a wikilink to find out what it means. Better yet, why don't we request that the CE/BCE versus BC/AD convention be written to be user-configurable like the current method of displaying dates in various formats is? - SocratesJedi | Talk 00:40, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
I don't see how you can talk about compromise. Slrubenstein has eloquently expressed opposition to "BC" and yet he is willing to support a compromise that includes both views. However, you are not. It's beyond amazement that those who oppose compromise are those who don't actually have a dog in the race! Troedel, explain to me how your use of BC and not BC/BCE is acceptable within the bounds of a policy that says that all views must be represented. Just saying "you're manufacturing the offence" does not wish away the other view, even if it has some truth to it. Grace Note 03:04, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
Jguk, I repeated my critique of your views above, and asked you for a second time to respond to them — and you barely responded. I expressed my reasons again (in the paragraph starting "Jguk, your hysterics do not help." and you haven't (cannot?) respond to that either. Instead, you just continue to protest that your point of view is the true point of view. Jguk, you must have a very small mind if you believe that anyone who disagrees with you is faking it. What kind of world do you live in, where everyone has to agree with you? Slrubenstein | Talk 14:56, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
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Comment: I've just replaced a vote to keep (and some minor formatting) removed by Silversmith ( talk · contributions) ( [1]). I'd like to think that this was an accident, though to be honest it's difficult to see how it could have been. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 11:51, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
I refuse to vote. Voting is stupid in a wiki. Nothing is resolved by it, except that one side has a stick to bully the other with. BTW, Mel, El C, Silversmith, I had a strange server glitch earlier today in which two comments were wiped out. I didn't even know they existed and only knew I had wiped it out when I received a message about it. You're all people I like and respect as editors, so please, let's all play nicely! Grace Note 13:46, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
The arguments given by those who favor AD are hypocritical and disingenuous for two reasons. First, Grace Note, who favors AD, asks of the CE system "Who has it in common with whom?" But Nob, who also favors the AD system, provides the answer: the current system of dating (by which this is 2005) "is currently commonly used globally by all cultures and civilizations, Islamic, Sinic, Japanese, Hindu, etc." This is why we call it the "common era" -- because many non-Christian groups use it also. They do not use it because they believe Jesus is Christ or the Lord, they use it as a convention to coordinate activities and records of activities with one another. So CE makes perfect sense. Second, opponents of CE claim that it is POV. Why? Because it involves their changing one of their habits. Sorry, but this is not what POV means. "POV" does not refer to anything that leads you to change a belief or practice, it refers to beliefs or practices that represent one point of view. This is indeed true of BC/AD. It represents the point of view of those who think Jesus is Christ or who think Jesus is the Lord. Now, I know that many people who call themselves non-Christians use these terms, but that is because the West is largely a Christian culture, by which I mean that many practices that have their origin in Christianity are taken for granted, regardless of what people believe (this is one meaning of "culture," a historically and locally specific set of habits). It should surprise no one that a google search shows that the vast majority of people use AD/BC, since the vaste majority of sites on the web are from Christian or Christianized societies. But again, the claim that AD is NPOV because it is accepted by a majority is 'ABSURD. All it means is that many people have this POV, not that it is NPOV. Most people in the antebellum South (and probably the North too) thought Blacks were inferior. That most people thought this doesn't mean that it is an objective fact, indeed it is still a point of view, a highly biased one. So let's leave out the numbers, shall we? They are irrelevant. I and many people like me — in fact most Jews I know – have no problem with Christians using BC and AD among themselves since it is after all their religion. But we are deeply offended when these terms are applied to ordinary events or even our own history, because we do not believe Jesus was Christ or the Lord. We can accept the numbers (e.g. 2005) as a convention, but this number (2005) has meaning because many people accept it as a convention. But those many people do not accept that Jesus is Lord. That reflects one point of view and is by no means neutral. Now, why do opponents of BCE and CE think these terms are POV? I have read through this entire discussion and the only answer I can see is: "because it is different from what we are used to." This is a pathetic position. Anyone who believes that their own points of view are neutral points of view either does not understand what NPOV is, or does not accept the principle of NPOV. And for any Wikipedia to claim that BCE/CE is POV is pure hypocracy, because their reason for opposing it is simply because they do not like it. Look, I know that this year is actually 5765. It really is. That's the truth. But I recognize that this is just my point of view, and in an NPOV encyclopedia I have no right to impose this on others. Like many non-Christians, I have no problem using 2005 in common discourse as a convention and as a convenience — but never because it is "the yearof our Lord." And to tell me that I must accept it, not as a convention but as the year of our Lord, is to impose your point of view on me. I will not impose my POV on you and force you to call this year 5765. Do not force me to use BC/AD. We can come to a mutually acceptable NPOV convention, and that is to use your number (2005) but stop saying that it "is the year of our Lord." He's not my Lord. And if the policy says BC/AD is acceptable, that policy should be changed.
Slrubenstein |
Talk 15:06, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Very briefly. Also, please see Talk:Jesus/Archive_15#Style_guides_and_Peer_Review (a trick I learned from someone's signature!). And at the grave risk of intense POV, welcome back, SR! El_C 15:46, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
I'm not clear that they all are. Not using an explicitly Christian reference in an article on Judaism is no more or less PoV than using that same reference in an article on Christianity; the status of NPoV is unchanged from religion to religion. To exaggerate the example in order to bring out the problem: it would be wrong to say in the Judaism article: "Jews wrongly deny that Jesus was the true Messiah through whom alone salvation is possible" — but it would be equally wrong to say that in this article (and to defend it by asking rhetorically "if we can't proclaim the Christian faith in this article, then where can we proclaim it?"). The wrongness doesn't lie in a mismatch between claim and article, that's fundamentally to misunderstand the nature of NPoV. (The analogy with British/U.S. English fails, because they don't embody claims about the world.)
In non-religious articles the case is less pressing, though personally I'd argue (and do argue) for the use of "BCE/CE" throughout Wikipedia, as it is in other respectable and respected publications and reference works (as indicated by El C's invaluable list above). Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 17:03, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Hey, um... not sure where to insert this, but I just wanted to say that I have no dog in the CE/BC-AD fight, but I do feel strongly that there should be a note explaining why Jesus is thought to have been born 6 years before when the calendar starts. So whatever y'all end up deciding, please leave that parenthetical note in--whether you say B.C. or B.C.E. --
Chowbok 19:13, May 10, 2005 (UTC)
And yes, I could go on. All of these books are available on Amazon today.
Amazon uses BCE/CE in its categories.
[8] Incidetnally, not a single Peer Review publication is listed in this pronouncedly undated book list sample.El_C 23:15, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
It suggests plenty, I thought, because obviously the trend has been (and remains) gradual. The point is, as I demonstrated above is that newer publications (<2000) would be more representative of that 'trend.' Second, for better or worse, books are a somewhat poor indication of Peer Review, in part, because Journal standards tend to be kept more up to date. Third, I didn't spend more than 15 minutes either, so we have no verificiation whether newer editions (if any) of the books you listed employ it now (so date ties into that, too). Fourth, what I was able to demonstrate —and I do think it's worth acknowledgment— is that Oxford University Press (which hosts the first book) now uses the new dating system, or that the Columbia University historian of the 2nd one who used AD/BC in the title of his book, now uses it, too. Authoritative sources by any stretch. **** Now, the motivation behind BCE/CE itself (in the scholarship) are a product of POV, or rather what was percieved as counter-POV, mainly due to religion. That's why OUP and Oxford scholars such as Mel are now using it (that is, it happned/is happening outside of Wikipedia). I think it's safe to say that within the more professional scholarship —for our purposes, specifically, that which writes about the time/space of Jeses (which is SlR's field)— it is viewed as more modern, secular, or at least, prefrable. Therefore, if I am right about all this, about the role it plays in the scholarship (where Jorunals rather than books are more indicative of Peer Views), that it isn't limited to OUP but also many other authoritative sources, et cetera, etc., then we are at the question I posed to jguk bellow: should npov be evaluated in accordance with common or specialized use in this case. As I said there, I was in favour of BCE/CE because I thought npov is to be guided by the latter, but many people here insist it should be the former. And, as I also said, I haven't really read the npov article closely (due to lack of interest on my part!), so I leave that as an open-ended question for everyone else. If I could (and I will) criticize SlR, I think one of the problems here had been his tendency to make the argument as if this was the scholarship: saying that he was offended (unless he was being esp. subtle, though then, I would argue, somewhat unclear) by it. I don't think it's pertinent one way or the other. Whether he (and Neutrality and others) was offended has nothing to do with whether the experts are moving towards its use (esp. Peer-wise), or not. And whether npov should follow their lead, or not. That's the bottom line, the rest is a diversion. I realize I'm repeating myself (or am I?), but I seem to be having a real difficult time getting this point across. Honestly, it's the only reason I'm still involved in this dispute, a dispute of an issue which dosen't particularly interest me, because I seem to be failing to do so. To do what? The point! What point? Exactly. El_C 11:20, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
Question to Slrubenstein: You make excellant points and all very valid. It is my understanding (and I may be wrong) the BCE originated with certain rabbinical scholars in perhaps the past half century, and your arguement makes an excellent explaination of their use of it. However, as I understood it, their use of it was intended for students of their writting and beliefs. My question is, do you believe they intended their concept to be hijacked by atheists, those at enmity with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Thx. Nobs 17:37, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Inserting for the record: ad hominem adverb & adjective phrase Latin (= to the person). Of an argument, etc.: directed to the individual, personal; appealing to an opponent's known personal views rather than reason. Such an argument, which plays upon an opponent's own premises, seeking to draw from them a conclusion that is rejected by that same opponent, is a legitimate debating tactic, unlike the kind of argumentum ad hominem that is really no more than a personal attack.Source: Oxford Essential Dictionary of Foreign Terms in English Nobs 18:23, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
To Silversmith: You might want to start a new discussion topic...your method of inserting above other comments without indenting to make clear which comments are responding to whom has sort of disrupted the flow of the conversation. For example, the way you stuck in your comment above jayjg's makes it look like his comment at 17:14 and also my comment at 17:54 responding to Mel Etitis are a response to yours. It makes it confusing for others to follow. -- MPerel ( talk | contrib) 19:06, May 9, 2005 (UTC)
First major contributor did not use AD, he referred to it. He did use BC, but "it is often assumed" can hardly be called ringing support for its usage. Anyway, is there really a policy on first major contributor? The server is bogged down, so I had to stop searching. So far I found Wikipedia:Ownership of articles and something about Be bold. Also Spelling preferences specifically overrides first major contributor... Here's the relevant passage from First major contributor though...
It is often assumed that Jesus was born in the year 4 or 5 B.C. and died at age 33.
The nomenclature of B.C. (Before Christ) and A.D. (Anno Domini - 'Year of our Lord') for years was based on a mistaken calculation of the year of his birth.
-- JimWae 21:40, 2005 May 9 (UTC)
Silversmith above provides a long list of books that use BC/AD, but like others of his point of view, he mistakes quantity for neutrality. That many books use a POV term does not make that POV term NPOV. It is not a popularity contest. We know most Westerners use BC and AD, but we at Wikipedia have this "NPOV" policy and that is what is at issue. Above, Baas writes "Keep BC/AD. Wikipedia is not a forum for revisionist history." which again shows the intellectual dishonesty or dullness of that position. This has nothing to do with revisionist history. To state that many people do not believe that Jesus was Christ or our Lord is not revisionism; the NT itself observes that some people do not accept Jesus as Christ and Lord. Wikipedia should as well. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:17, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
The one and only advantage of using BC/AD is that it is more common. Its disadvantages include:
Given the above, I fail to see why BC/AD is being supported so vehemently, and the arguments of the supporters seem to boil down to:
There also seem to be some who consider the most common term as the one we should here, but that is not true, especially when the common term espouses a particular POV or causes offense to a certain group of people. For example, we have People's Republic of China, instead of the more common China, and we have Republic of China, instead of the more common Taiwan. srs 07:26, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
In comparing the "policies" on spelling and era styles, I notice the disclaimer on both guides (see American vs. British spelling style guidelines and BCE/CE vs. BC/AD era style guidelines) emphasizing that these are style guidelines and not policy. Both guides state at the top of each respective page: "New contributors are reminded that clear, informative and unbiased writing is always more important than presentation and formatting. Writers are not expected or required to follow all or any these rules." Therefore the overriding principle in choosing the style to be used in a particular article is NPOV. I think the case can be and has been made for BCE/CE being the more NPOV terminology, which is why so many publishing houses are going in that direction as El_C demonstrated above. -- MPerel ( talk | contrib) 02:19, May 10, 2005 (UTC)
I beleive all the evidence brought forward thus far weighs in the direction that BCE/CE originated among Christian academics and Talmudic scholars, and not among secular academia. This is an important distinction to be made before the term is exposed to popular abuse. Nobs 22:08, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
May I point out that the BCE/CE-system is used by preference by Jehovah's Witnesses all over the world, though I don't know what that means for this debate... Switisweti 11:09, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
"Why are [we] doing something different?"
We? Are we
Oxford University Press, etc.? Are they not authoritative? Why are they doing it? Incidentally, I, myself, am not offended by AD/BC, I'm almost certain I employed both dating systems on Wikipedia without noticing which one I used when. But since I focus on 20th Century history, it's usually an aside. Whereas here, the fundamentals of the npov policy (which I have heard of, though admittedly, only in passing) seem to be at stake —perhaps I'm mistaken in thinking it's so closely related to
Peer Review...(?) Bah. :)
El_C 07:05, 10 May 2005 (UTC)This is a response to Nobs, Rangerdude, and Silversmith, although again these points realy are directed to everyone and consider the issue as a whole. Nobs suggests that BCE/CE was developed by Talmud scholars and asks how I feel about it having been hijacked by atheists. Nobs, I think your question suggests a misunderstanding of the issue. Personally, I do not know who first coined the terms BCE and CE, and I do not care. However, ler's say it was Jacob Neusner. It is true that he is a scholar of the Talmud, but whatever his degree of religious observance (I have no idea whether he is shomrei mitzvot — an observer of the commandments, or an apikoros — what Orthodox Jews might consider a heretic. What I do know is that he is a critical scholar, meaning he applies the methods of critical history and comparative literature to the study of Jewish texts, which leads him to question those texts' claims about their origins and truthfulness. In other words, I think that his being Jewish is less important than his being a historian or textual critic like Eugene Genovese or Hayden White. As I suggested before, if he were writing from a Jewish point of view, he would identify this year as 5765, and the year Jesus was born as 3756. But he didn't, because he was not writing from a Jewish point of view but rather from the point of view of a critical scholar as committed (or, in this instance, more committed) to NPOV as (than) us. I have no idea why you use the phrase "hijacked by atheists" for two reasons. First of all, hijacking involves stealing someone's property. But as any Wikipedian should know, ideas are not quite property. We cite other sources all the time, indeed, we are supposed to cite other sources all the time. So of course Neusner expects other people to cite him, engage his ideas, and, if people find his arguments compelling, build on them. This is the scholarly enterprise &mndash; don't you agree? (if you don't, why are you involved in writing an encyclopedia?). Second, I have no reason to believe that the other people who use "BCE" and "CE" are atheists or not. I imagine some do not believe in God, and others do believe in God. Ihonestly do not see how it matters. What is at issue is not whether one believes in God. What is at issue is whether one believes that all human beings believe that Jesus is Christ and Lord. And as the New Testement makes clear, the Apostles certainly did not believe that all people believed that Jesus is Christ and Lord. Why do you believe this? Slrubenstein | Talk 16:00, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
Rangerdude takes it upon himself (herself?) to "warn" me against insulting other people. I have not insulted anyone, I have however criticized other people's positions which again is basic to scholarly enterprise. If you can't handle it, go away. If you can handle it, understand that I will criticize your views when I feel they are flawed. You say my premise is flawed: "As you have been shown many times, Wikipedia's NPOV policy says absolutely nothing barring the use of BC/AD and Wikipedia's Style Manual explicitly condones it as one of two acceptable dating systems." I honestly have no idea how you can write this with a straight face. Let us look at your own words: the style policy allows both BC/AD and BCE/CE. Fine. But this only means that the style policy will not help us resolve this debate (see also MPerel's astute and relevant observation [13]. You are not only saying "AD" is permissible, YOU are also saying that "CE" is permissible! Your argument supports my view as much as it supports yours. In fact, this policy cannot and will never decide this issue, since as a matter of style it sees both systems as acceptable. But not only is your argument flawed; you do not understand my argument. I am NOT criticizing "BC/AD" on the grounds of style. Therefore the style policy is not relevant. I am criticizing it on the grounds of NPOV. Style issues aside, "BC" and "AD" are abbreviations for claims that Jesus is Christ and Lord. That is a point of view held by Christians but not held by others. So it is POV, plain and simple. Conversely, "BCE" and "CE" are not POV, because they make no claims about Jesus. They do not say he is Lord, but neither do they say he is not Lord. A devout Christian can use "BCE" and "CE without feeling that he or she is betraying his or her faith, because using these terms in no way negates their faith. What these terms do is signal that this dating system is a convention that people use even if they do not believe Jesus is Christ and Lord. If you do not understand this, I do not need to insult you, you are insulting yourself. In any event, I would think it is clear to everyone here that our NPOV policy is far more important than a style policy. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:00, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
Silversmith misunderstands the import of El_C's list, because s/he thinks that his/her list of people who use AD/BC is comparable and cancels out El_C's. Again, he/she is mistaken. The lists are comparable only in that they both illustrate that many people use either system. But no one has ever contested the fact that many people use BC/AD The only thing that we contest is that BC/AD violates NPOV policy. The purpose of El_C's list is simply to show that there is an NPOV alternative. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:00, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
Susvolans, please explain why "Common Era" is POV. And please explain why "Before Christ" and "In the Year of our Lord" is not POV. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:25, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
"Common Era is just plain stupid?" Well Tomer, I guess when you wrote that I was not the only one resorting to insults, you meant yourself. But I don't mind the insulting language. What I do mind is that you either have not read what I wrote, or refuse to respond. I explained why BCE/CE are most definitely not insulting to Christians or Christianity, and I explained to whom the Common Era is common. Now let me ask you a question: when you say "christendom," what do you mean? DO you mean the world consisting only of all Christians? If so, you are wrong, because many non Christians agree by convention to call this year 2005. Or by "christendom" do you mean all people who use the Gregorian calendar? If this is what you mean, you are really insulting me and violating NPOV. I am not a Christian and although I call this year 2005 it insults me, and it is inaccurate, to call me a member of Christendom. If you believe that "Christendom" — the rule of Christianity – should rule Wikipeida, you have no business here at all. How dare you exclude all non-Christians (or demand that non-Christians accept Christian practices)? What does "Common Era" mean? It means an an era common to many people of many faiths, including Christianity but yes believe it or not including non-Christians too, and refusing to privilege a Christian POV. Why do you think that is stupid? Slrubenstein | Talk 17:25, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
By the way, I assume you are joking when you say we should all use 5765. I agree with you that that is what year we are in. But I recognize that others do not agree. This is the question: can people of different views find common ground or not? This is what Wikipedia's NPOV policy is all about, and this is what the switch to "Common Era" is all about. It really sounds to me like the people who support AD 2005 or 5765 over 2005 CE are saying that we pick one view or another, but there can be no neutral view. If you feel that way, how can you commit yourself to Wikipedia? Slrubenstein | Talk 17:31, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
Nobs, I appreciate your thoughtful comment. We are closer than I previously thought, though I respectfully disagree with you on some important issues. When you write " A search on CE/BCE finds for the most part, Christian bible schools and Jewish sites that use the term, repsectfully of each other. The Christian bible schools use C.E. to acknowledge it may not be "anno domini" for all members of society; the Jewish use C.E. to acknowledge the rise and dominance (in population numbers) of the gentile church over the past 2 millenia." I agree wholeheartedly with you. But when using "common era," I think that the only thing Jews and Christians have in common is there desire to live together with mutual respect. It is true that Jews and Christians worship the same God, this is something else they have in common — but I do not think this is the reason for Jews accepting the Gregorian calendar and Christians accepting CE. I think it is as simple as Jews accepting the fact that Christian Europe has set the terms for many global customs, and Christians accepting the fact that however widespread some customs may be, they are now used by and in a way belong to non-Christians. Clearly, one does not have to be of an "Abrahamic" faith to use the Gregorian/CE system -- Hindus can, for example, and do. As far as atheists coopting BCE/CE, Nobs, with all due respect, this simply does not matter. This is not a chatroom for debating religion or atheism, it is an NPOV encyclopedia. No editor here should care about another editor's beliefs. But we should all care about NPOV. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:39, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
Slrubenstein, nothing about what I said about "Common Era" was meant to be insulting toward you or toward anyone else. I maintain that it's just plain stupid. If you have a lot of stock riding upon its usage, I would say it's probably a good investment, but that the phrase is still stupid. It's not "common", and it's based retroactively on an event whose dating is undeterminable, to say nothing of unverifiable. If people were to say "Christian Era", then I might be less critical, since that's what the dating system is supposed to be indicative of. BCE as "before the christian era" is much less nonsensical than "before the common era", since, as has been pointed out numerous times, and not just by me, there is nothing "common" about "this era". Even saying that cheeses was born in 6 BCE with that meaning, is much less nonsensical than saying he was born 6 years BC. That is, as I have said several times already, the only reason I'm opposing the use of BC/AD in this article. If you find insulting my saying that the phraseology "Common Era" is just plain stupid, then I would suggest that you're perhaps too emotionally attached, as bizarre as that sounds to me, to this non-issue. Tersely but respectfully yours. Tomer TALK 19:48, May 10, 2005 (UTC)
I do not understand ClemMcGann's statement. How frequently a phrase is used has nothing to do with whether it is POV or NPOV. If you seriously think that frequency of use proves NPOV, you profoundly misunderstand our NPOV policy and I urge you to read it carefully. Frequency of use is simply irrelevant to POV/NPOV. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:36, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
By the way, Jguk who earlier reverted my changes has yet to explain why BC and AD conform to our NPOV policy. Moreover, Susvolans has yet to explain whose or what POV "Common Era" expresses (don't say the POV of people who use CE, that is tautological. The reason AD is POV is not because it expresses the point of view of people who use AD, but rather because it express the Christian POV; people who use CE are doing so precisely to be neutral. If you call the Neutral Point of View a "Point of View" and conclude that it thus violates our NPOV policy, your logic is really screwed up. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:42, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
Tomer, I have actually heard some people say that CE means "Christian Era" and I have no objection to that interpretation, which you seem more comfortable with. Nevertheless, I still do not understand why you question "common." "Common" means shared by many people, and indeed many people, including people of different faiths and no faith, share the Gregorian calendar. This seems like a straightforward use of the word "common." The point is, they have the calendar in common, but they do not have belief that Jesus is Christ and Lord in common. Also, I have noticed that you often talk about the Gregorian calendar and the BC/AD system at the same time. I think this is unconstructive, and certainly misses the point of many people who object to AD. As I said, people share the Gregorian calendar (i.e. "2005"), they do not share belief in Jesus as Lord (i.e. "AD). I understand you are saying that the Gregorian calendar is derived from an assumption about Jesus' birth, and an assumption that happens to be wrong to boot. But the same thing can mean very different things in different contexts. For Christians, 2005 may very well mean "2005 years since Jesus' birth." When Jews use "2005" they know that Christians think it is 2005 years since Jesus' birth. But that is not why Jews use "2005." The reason they use "2005" is because it has become a convention shared by (i.e. common to) many people worldwide. It is a convenience -- rather than have to convert the Jewish year to the Christian year to the Muslim year to the Hindu year whenever different people try to communicate, it makes sense to pick a convention. There are of course historical reasons for why the Gregorian calendar became the convention rather than the Muslim calendar — reasons that have more to do with European commercial and military prowess, than with Christianity. Nevertheless, it is a convention, just a convention. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:36, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
I propose - in an effort to end the revert war - since this is an issue for all of Wikipedia and not just this artice, that the original version be maintained until the policy is reviewed and a decision is made to adopt the system of BCE/CE over BC/AD, or not. The article should be left in it's original state until that time, as that is the most common usage, and the most common usage on Wikipedia. There is also no definite consensus either way. Many Wikipedians do not even know this debate is happening as they have no reason to come to this article. You may argue that we don't need to decide either way, like with English vs. American spelling, but I think this talk page clearly shows that we do. This is a complete waste of energy. We are arguing the same points over and over again. This is my proposal, and if agreed upon, there should be no further discussion of the issue here, or reverting of the article. I don't know the best procedure for having such a policy vote, I haven't been here that long. I hope someone can come up with a solution. Please address this proposal below. And just to make a point: I would probably vote on Wikipedia adopting the new BCE/CE system, as that seems to be the way the academic world is going. -- Silversmith 21:57, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
I do not see the point to or value of this proposal. Silversmith and Tomer misconstrue Jayjg's point, which really is that all Wikipedia articles are works in progress. Period. Earlier versions have no priority just because they happen to be earlier. Indeed, if you really believed in the ideals of Wikipedia, which I am beginning to doubt, you (Silversmith and Tomer) would argue that the most recent versions of articles have priority. This is because the idea of Wikipedia is that over time through the contributions of many articles will improve over time. Moreover, Silversmith and Tomer keep trying to switch the issues. Yes, the style guidelines (Which as MPerel pointed out are not binding) say that AD and CE are equally acceptable. "Equally" means that this style policy gives you no grounds for objecting to CE as a matter of style — just as it gives us no grounds for objecting to AD as a matter of style. But we are not objecting to AD as a matter of style. We are objecting to it because of a whole other different policy — our NPOV policy. NPOV is one of the most, if not the most, important policy we have here and there is no question that it trumps issues of style (i.e. what may be acceptable or even good style must be deleted if it violates NPOV; what may be poor style is acceptable if it maintains NPOV). Silversmith and Tomer, please stop confusing two different issues. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:59, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
You have no understanding of our NPOV policy. AD is POV, CE is NPOV. I and many others have explained why. It is POV to say Jesus is Christ. It is NPOV to say that many different groups have a particular calendar in common. To say that the invention of BCE/CE expressed a POV shows that you are ignorant of what we here at Wikipedia mean by POV. "NPOV" is not itself a POV that violates our NPOV policy — you are just a troll making a mockery of our policies. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:43, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Silversmith, I am sorry. But what frustrates me is that although I have responded to your statements, you never seem to respond to mine. I have explained why BC/AD is POV (many people do not believe Jesus is Christ). I have given reasons why BCE/CE is NPOV (it makes no claims about religious beliefs, pro or con). I have explained why the fact that people came up with BCE/CE for a reason is not sufficient to make the term POV (our own policy explains why NPOV is not itself a POV). I have explained why it does make a difference (you are conflating/confusing two things: the Gregorian calendar and the BC/AD terminology; they should be treated seperately. I, like most non-Christians, can accept the Gregorian calendar as a convention because we accept that some people do think Jesus was Christ and his birth was important. But that does not mean we should, in addition, be required to say Jesus is our Lord). I have made these points several times; others have made similar points. And you keep ignoring them. That is disheartening. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:30, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
I propose that:
Chameleon 01:24, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
This is a fine proposal if we are talking only about matters of style. If we are talking about our NPOV policy (which is far more important than our style conventions), it is a terrible proposal. NPOV by its very nature is not about US versus UK standards, it is about neutrality. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:03, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Chameleon - You state that the tide appeared to be turning "after Jayjg attempted to, let's say, stuff the ballot box." Would this be the vote recruitment you are referring to? See here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here. IOW, somebody didn't like the way the vote was going among people who came here to participate on their own so he rounded up all his friends to invade the discussion. I did think it was odd that after two days of evenly split voting, all of a sudden a bunch of editors who never participated in this discussion suddenly showed up, cast a quick vote in favor of Jayjg's position, and then departed. Now I know why. Rangerdude 04:10, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Who says this isn't and educational exercise. It's possible 10 billion human souls have walked the face of this planet over the past two millenia. I had no idea they were so ignorant until a wiki poll set the matter straight in a vote 20-13. Nobs 01:50, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Chameleon and Rangerdude are being very unfair to Jayjg. As far as I know, it was I who first solicited the particpation of others, many others, not Jayjg (just go to my page and look at "contributions" for May 8th, when I posted an RfC and also solicited several individuals. Moreover, the charge of "ballot stuffing" is ridiculous, especially at Wikipedia where people who might have knowledge about or interest in an article are supposed to get involved. And when I recruited people to participate, there was no vote and I did not ask anyone to vote any particular way. I also resent Chameleon's vague anti-Semitism. To bring race in when we are trying to discuss neutrality is utterly uncalled for. In any event, many of the people I contacted are not Jewish, or at least I have no reason to think they are Jewish (e.g. John Kenney, Jayjg, and Mustafaa). And another thing, some of the people I invited to participate were or are vigorously opposed to my own view: I left a message on Tomer's talk page and it is obvious that he and I are entirely opposed; I also invited MPerel, and although he has since changed his mind, at the time he was opposed to my view. Jayjg and JimWae (both of whom I notified) and I happen to agree on this matter, but there are many examples in the recent past where they and I vigorously disagreed. What I value is open and intelligent discussion. On the other hand, Chameleon and Rangerdude's complaints are unfounded, signs of intellectual bankrupcy or cowardice (because it doesn't matter how many people disagree with you, what matters is their reasons and the ability and requirement that all of us have a rational conversation about the issues; if you think many people oppose your point of view, try using reason to change their minds! Or try to take their own arguments seriously!), and diversionary. Let's stick to the issue rather than try to assasinate Jayjg's character. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:17, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Ballot-stuffing refers to people voting more than once, or votes cast by non-living people. This is not the case here; each vote is by a real editor, and no one has voted twice. Rangerdude simply cannot stand being in the minority. And he is in the minority. It does not matter how or why various people voted because every wikipedian has a right to express their view. Rangerdude, stop — and before you say anything else, please go through our policies and tell us which policy Jayjg has violated. If he has not violated any policy, he cannot be faulted for what he (or I) did. Tell us what policy we have violated. Please provide a link to that policy too. Thank you. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:30, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Rangerdude is just a troll making a mockery of our policies. There is no policy against campaigning (if that is what Jayjg actually did) and all RD is saying is that anything someone does that RD doesn't like is "lack of good faith" is absurd on its face. Listen to Tomer's good points rather than continue to get more and more hysterical. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:46, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
And bring also anyone who likely to participate constructively. I extend this advice to every single individual here, and I don't mean anyone especially, though especially Rangerdude. Let the "invasion" begin. From someone whom SlR contacted and did not arrive here independently, El_C 10:51, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Okay. Let's do the date thing the NPOV way. The policy says "represent all views". So represent all views. 6 BC/BCE. AD 4 CE. What's the problem? We don't have to choose. Include both. We've established that "BC" is considered biased by some editors and that "BCE" is considered anti-Christian by some, so clearly there is no term that is acceptable to both (unless we date the year from the invention of the metre ;-)), so why not just use both? Problem solved. You may now return to your pointless debate about it. GN User:203.103.60.206 Sig added by -- Silversmith 01:43, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
This would be confusing - it would also make each year look like a vacuum cleaner model, jguk 05:51, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
I have to say I find your attitude utterly intolerant. You can plainly see that there is a lot of strong feeling about the dates thing. You cannot claim you are sparing the ignorant, because I have proposed including both sets of dates, so that all can understand them. So basically you are saying my way or nothing. Even JimWae, a staunch supporter of a switch to CE, is willing to give it a go. I know that Jayjg is online too, and he's not afraid to revert what he doesn't like! Why not give it a think? If everyone can just swallow it, we have resolved the problem and can all move on to creating content. Grace Note 06:18, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
I also agree with silversmith. Sam Spade 12:17, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Has anyone ever provided a rational explanation for why BCE and CE are "anti-Christian?" Nobs, above argued that it is not, and gave reasons. I've yet to see reasons for why BCE is "anti-Christian." This is tantamount to saying "NPOV is anti-Christian." Our NPOV policy requires us to say things like some people believe that Jesus is Christ — but not everyone! Is this anti-Christian? If not, why is saying BCE, which only means that many people do not believe Jesus is Christ, anti-Christian? It doesn't make sense to me. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:21, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
I do not see the "hijacking." The words "Common Era" or "Before Common Era" in no way imply that God does not exist. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:31, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Whether or not God exists has never been an issue here. I do not think that even "Christian Era" takes the Christian POV, it simply admits that it is an era in Western history dominated by Christianity, which I accept as a fact. As for creating new meanings for old abbreviations, I suppose it is possible, but when people ave been using "BCE and CE" for at least a hundred years, I don't see the point in banishing them from this article. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:55, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
NPOV means that, for reporting purposes, we accept the societal norms that we are in. We use the most common terms as understood and used by our audience. Here our audience is anyone who might be searching for information in a web-based English language encyclopaedia. And it is clear what the norms are here. The overwhelming majority (90%+) of that audience use BC/AD in preference to BCE/CE. Based on that overwhelming majority, BC/AD is what we should use - to do anything else begs "WHY?" And you can't answer that without telling me your POV.
Note that in a different scenario, you would come to a different conclusion about the same issue. Suppose we had a journal written by academics for academics from various university departments where BCE/CE was overwhelmingly prevalent - so much so that the journal's style guide prefers that notation. What sort of message would it present if you persisted in writing to that journal, submitting letters, etc. using BC/AD style. Why would you be breaking the norms? What message are you trying to give? What's your POV?
But the point here is that BC/AD notation is what our readers (and our writers) prefer. By a long shot. There's no contest.
I appreciate that some contributors are more used to BCE/CE than BC/AD - but they form a small minority of our readership. I ask them to accept societal norms here. There is no reason not to.
There are a number of side-effects to the principle of using most common terms - they make the reader comfortable with the style, and if the style is welcoming and familiar, they are more likely to stay. Ask me why I read The Times rather than The Daily Telegraph, The Independent or The Guardian - and it is purely a question of my preferring its style. The same is true of online encyclopaedias. If you are unsure - next ask yourself this. If WP had adopted a strong policy of only allowing American English (swap for British English if you are American!) and rigorously enforced a style guide, so that we made arbitrary changes to contributions to comply with it - do you really think WP would have the breadth of coverage and contributors that it currently does?
Style is important - as is conforming to societal norms (if we are to have a NPOV encyclopaedia). In this instance, there is no alternative - NPOV is non-negotiable and not susceptible to a vote. We must use the forms preferred overwhelmingly by 90%+ of our readership. Kind regards, jguk 05:48, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
The BC/AD vs BCE/CE debate demonstrates the NPOV of the editors and the debate does not consider as relevant the expectations of the audience. (Whatever happened to writing for your audience. [19]) The article on Common Era in wikipedia itself suggests that BCE/CE "is most often used by academics, especially in the fields of non-Western history, theology, archaeology, and anthropology." And the referenced Chicago Manual of Style provides what I consider to be a NPOV approach:
Q. Do you recommend the use of BCE (Before the Common Era) and CE (Common Era) instead of BC and AD? Has the debate about these been settled or is it still in flux? A. We are not aware of any intense debate. The choice between one or the other is up to the writer and should be flagged only if the customs of a specific field or community seem to be in danger of being (unwittingly) violated. Many authors use BC and AD because they are familiar and conventionally understood. Those who want to avoid reference to Christianity are free to do so. [20]
As this is an article about Jesus it seems appropriate to use the BC/AD designation since the designation was created to coincide with his birth. BC/BCE applies a new (supposedly neutral) label to the same convention and seems out of place in an article about the person on whom the starting refernce point is based. Trödel| talk 12:45, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Jguk is so incredibly wrong it amazes me. Above, MPerel asks Jguk to respond to my criticism of his view and he replies "It is NPOV because we use it merely because it is the most common formulation." This is simply wrong. W-R-O-N-G. I have explained why several times. The popularity of a phrase or the frequency of its use has nothing at all to do with its neutrality. Why don't we look at the actual NPOV policy (which, Jimbo has said, is non-negotiable):
That Jesus is Christ is not a fact no matter how many people believe so. That Jesus is Lord is not a fact no matter how many people believe so. On the contrary, that Jesus is Christ and that Jesus is Lord is, undeniably, incontrovertably, "a piece of information about which there is some dispute." Even if four billion people believed Jesus is Christ, to assert this as a fact would violate NPOV. I have asked several people to explain why BCE/CE violates NPOV and no one can give me an answer. But I can explain very simply why it is NPOV. First, it claims that the Gregorian calendar is common to many different groups. This is a fact. Second, it implies that many people do not accept Jesus as Christ or Lord. This too is a fact. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:33, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Silversmith, I now realize you are a new user. Welcome to Wikipedia, and we welcome your contributions. However, if you want to avoid potential conflicts, please familiarize yourself with our policies. Some policies are really just guidelines (like our style policies) but some policies are firm and non-negotiable. Wikipedia: Neutral point of view is one such policy. I urge you to read it. In cases of Wikipedia policy, do not turn to dictionaries — turn to our policy pages (if you do not know where they are, go to the community portal and you will see). In answer to your question, our policy is:
Remember, this policy is non-negotiable. Now, if I understand you correctly, you are in part suggesting that NPOV leads us to include multiple points of view in articles. You are right. For example, an article on Jesus should include multiple points of view: Jesus was the messiah; Jesus was a false messiah; Jesus was a prophet; Jesus was the son of God, and so on. Including these multiple points of view is one important way of achieving an NPOV article. In the case of any discussion of the terms, BC and BCE, NPOV requires us to say that some people use BC, and others use BCE. But the argument here is not about how people in general use these terms, it is about which of these terms to use in this article and many argue that BC is a term that reflects a POV and BCE does not. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:24, 11 May 2005 (UTC) — As many argue that BCE/CE is POV and BC/AD is not. -- Silversmith 19:27, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Please tell us where in the NPOV policy it says this. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:40, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Here it is: from WP NPOV policy.
The scholarship arguement is a fallacy seeing there has been NO evidence presented of its origin and/or common usage outside of religious scholarship. In otherwords, proponents of adopting the BCE/CE standard are basing their arguement on the POV of religious scholars. I challenge anyone to disprove the above premise. Nobs 21:28, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Did nobody read the bit of the NPOV policy that says that NPOV does not mean "use the most neutral expression"? It means "express all views fairly". It simply doesn't matter why people have one view or another -- we are precluded from analysis of why. An expression cannot be "more NPOV" than another in any real sense. Slrubenstein, your argument boils down to the belief that AD expresses a POV you don't like, and CE does not and is consequently more "neutral". But it's not "NPOV" to exclude POVs you don't like! Nor is it "NPOV" to push for "neutral" expressions. It's NPOV to push for expressions that fairly represent all views and opinions. Okay, I'd say there are three groups of people with views on AD: those who think that AD means "Jesus is Lord" and like that, those who think it means "Jesus is Lord" and don't like it, and those who don't think it has any such meaning. (I'm simplifying -- there are also plenty who don't care and haven't thought about it.) You are wishing to exclude the first and third groups and only cater to the POV of the second. This is not "NPOV" by any means. Now about CE, there are also three views: those who think it is neutral, those who think it is anti-Christian, and those who think it is a ridiculous PC contrivance. Again, you only wish to include one of those views. Neutral, you can argue for; NPOV, no way. Grace Note 00:29, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
Here's what I think the crucial question is: Does use of BC/AD communicate the author's POV? If it necesssarily does—if by reading text with "BC" or "AD" in it one can ascertain that the author asserts a belief in Jesus as Christ and Lord—then its use in Wikipedia is POV and should not be accepted; BCE/CE should be used instead as the next best alternative. If the author's POV cannot be determined by their use of BC/AD, then its use in Wikipedia is NPOV and should as a matter of style be favored over BCE/CE in most articles because of its far greater currency in the vernacular. Alanyst 17:42, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
Alanyst, I agree with you about Thursday because there aren't many worshipers of Thor these days, and because if worshipers of Thor went around the world converting people to Thor-worship or killing them, it was a very very long time ago. But it was not at all long ago that Christians killed non-Christians, and quite recently that Christians went around the world trying to convert non-Christians; indeed, it still happens today. You can't compare AD with Thursday because the contexts are so different. Sociologists have studied relations of domination for a very long time, and have discovered that the dominant position is often "unmarked" -- for example, if Whites are talking about a White musician they will just say "x, the pianist" but many times if the musician is Black they will say "x the Black pianist." They may think that they do not hate Blacks, they may not think they are discriminating against Blacks, but it is nevertheless evidence of the inequality between Whites and Blacks. Slaveowners thought their slaves were happy; rich people think poor people could be rich if they just weren't so lazy. These are not strictly analogous to the case at hand, but that isn't why I bring these examples up. My point is that people who are in a privileged position seldom admit it and often do not even see it. People who are not in a privileged position, however, are acutely sensitive to these power dynamics (which is why you hear a lot of Whites telling Blacks they are "too sensitive" or "have an attitude problem" but seldom the other way around). My point: the very claim that AD and BC are NPOV, which I do believe you sincerely believe, is actually just more evidence of how POV they are. The effect of claiming that they are NPOV is either to compel everyone else to accept your POV unquestioningly, or to enable you to tell anyone who says "No, they are not neutral, and you are trying to impose your view of the world on me" that they are being ridiculous &— in other words, to tell people you disagree with to shut up, or to enable you simply not to listen to them. Don't listen to all the people whom you offend, if it makes you happy. But don't kid yourself that these terms are NPOV, claiming so is just the newest scam to get people who are different from you to be like you. I can respect you, but don't think you can compel me to be like you Slrubenstein | Talk 18:56, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
Alanyst, I am afraid you are getting defensive, which might mean I was offensive. If so, I apologize. But you misunderstand my point. I explicitly said that a once POV term can become NPOV, and I explained why this hasn't happened for the particular term in question. I also explained the criteria. I am sorry you missed it, but all I would do is repeat exactly what I wrote at the very beginning of my comment to you, to which you just responded. As for your other questions: no, I never suggested that a member of a minority or dominated group cannot make POV claims, the do so all the times. From the very beginning of this discussion I gave an example of a POV claim I could make and all Jews could make; I admitted that it would be POV, and said that for that reason I would not use it — I am sorry you missed this too (it was in my response to Grace Note, in this section). Nor did I ever claim that members of a majority or dominant group are incapable of making NPOV claims; I did not say that, and nothing I wrote above suggests that. The fact that there are Christian Whites who use BCE and CE is simple proof that they can make NPOV claims. The fact that a Christian contributing to this article might write "According to the New Testament, Jesus was resurrected ..." as opposed to the POV "Three days later, Jesus was resurrected" is another perfectly good example of a Christian making an NPOV claim. I regret that you so completely misinterpreted my words.
I will try again: Alanyst, our NPOV policy states,
All I was trying to explain above, is that this is another example of an unconscious bias. It is not a geographical bias, as in the example in our policy. But it is still an unconscious bias, and one that I am trying to explain to you. My point is that members of a dominant group often do not recognize that some things they say or do are not universally shared but rather reflect their particular point of view. Note my use of the word "often." "Often" does not mean "always." But I do believe this is a fact. How to respond? Simple: listen, with an open mind, to people different from you, and understand that they may legitimately see something in your words or deeds that you do not see. This does not believe that any and all complaints by members of a minority or dominated group are true by any means. It only means that you concede that you may be wrong and they may be right. How do you find out? Through a conversation, of course. And for a couple of days I and several other people, including non-Jews, have given reasons for our objections to BC/AD. You also ask, "Can a non-privileged person's complaint of POV-ness actually be a matter of their own personal interpretation and not actual proof of POV?" The answer is, of course! Of course my criticism of BC/AD reflects my point of view. In fact, I thought that in my last few comments I have been making that clear! But Alanyst, the fact that my objection to AD reflects my POV does not mean that CE is POV. I object to AD because I am not Christian. But your objections to CE are not because you are not Jewish. And I am not asking you to give up your own POV. You are more than welcome to use AD when expressing your personal views. Similarly, I can use 5765 when expressing my views. But if we are going to write an article that is NPOV, we need to come up with something we can have in common. I will give up 5765 and share your Gregorian calendar because it is something most people today have in common. But that does not mean that most people have in common a belief that Jesus is Lord. If you want to participate in a common sphere with people who are different from you, you can't expect people to use "AD." As I said, that does not mean I insist you use 5765. But it seems evident to me that to say that "this is the 2005th year of our Lord Jesus Christ" is point of view, but saying "this is the year 2005 by convention (a convention between people of different faiths) is both accurate and NPOV. There is nothing particularly "Jewish" about BCE/CE. BCE/CE only means that this is a calendar that people of different faith's have in common. Yes, it is implied that the reason that they have this calendar in common is not because they all believe in Jesus Christ as Lord; the reason they have this calendar in common is purely by convention. I just do not see how anyone can be offended by or object to this! Slrubenstein | Talk 20:48, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
I'm quite surprised by Slrubenstein's comments. From what I've seen in the past, he usually seeks to comment on controversial subjects in a scholarly and unpassioned way.
Suppose I make the statement "Julius Caesar was assassinated in 44BC". 99.9% of people would take that statement as conveying the information that Caesar was murdered 2048 years ago.
From what I can see Slrubenstein is interpreting that statement as meaning that Caesar was murdered 2048 years ago, and Jesus Christ is our Lord and Saviour!
He also seems to take the view that his viewpoint is NPOV and anyone who disagrees with him is biased.
Unfortunately we are going to get nowhere whilst he digs his heels.
To diffuse the situation, I do suggest that the article does not use "BC" or "AD" more than is necessary - this means that all references to years after 1 BC do not need to be prefixed by "AD", except for the first reference to a year after 1 BC.
I would like to thank Analyst for improving the quality of discussion singlehanded - he makes many good points. I also suggest that this discussion is getting us nowhere. The article has got noticeable poorer in the last 2 or 3 months, and almost all the discussion on talk is about 2 or 3 letters! Kind regards, jguk 19:29, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
AD which means "in the year of our Lord" is inherantly POV, how could you deny it? Here is the comment I am specifically thinking about. I quote your explanation of NPOV, which indeed is ignorant, and quote our policy. You never responded to this comment of mine.
Jguk is so incredibly wrong it amazes me. Above, MPerel asks Jguk to respond to my criticism of his view and he replies "It is NPOV because we use it merely because it is the most common formulation." This is simply wrong. W-R-O-N-G. I have explained why several times. The popularity of a phrase or the frequency of its use has nothing at all to do with its neutrality. Why don't we look at the actual NPOV policy (which, Jimbo has said, is non-negotiable):
That Jesus is Christ is not a fact no matter how many people believe so. That Jesus is Lord is not a fact no matter how many people believe so. On the contrary, that Jesus is Christ and that Jesus is Lord is, undeniably, incontrovertably, "a piece of information about which there is some dispute." Even if four billion people believed Jesus is Christ, to assert this as a fact would violate NPOV. I have asked several people to explain why BCE/CE violates NPOV and no one can give me an answer. But I can explain very simply why it is NPOV. First, it claims that the Gregorian calendar is common to many different groups. This is a fact. Second, it implies that many people do not accept Jesus as Christ or Lord. This too is a fact. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:33, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Jguk, your hysterics do not help. Either BC/AD are arbitrary, or they actually stand for something. If you believe they are arbitrary, then it shouldnot matter to you at all what letters we use, and BCE and CE should be equally acceptable. But you keep arguing — why do you care, if they are just letters? You do care. Obviously, making other people use AD and BC is important to you. I do not understand why, but I do nknow it is wrong. AD and BC do stand for something. That is a fact. You may not know what they stand for, but I do, and I see the POV. This should not surprise you — I am sure that almost every editor at Wikipedia has written something that violated NPOV policy, and they didn't know why, and needed someone to tell them. That is all that is going on here. As I explained above (and you still haven't responded to this) your claim that if something is common it is NPOV is false and has nothing to do with our NPOV policy. It just doesn't matter how many people use BC/AD or not. You simply do not understand our NPOV policy. It states,
You can argue all you want. But it is a fact that BC stands for "before Christ" and that represents a point of view. As such it violates our NPOV policy. You can scream at the top of your voice that many people do not know what the letters mean, so it doesn't matter. But it is a fact that many people do know what these letters mean, and that is enough to raise NPOV issues. You are so intent in forcing me to accept your beliefs (even the belief that "Christ" is something everyone should take for granted and just use, pretending the word means nothing). You just can't stand the fact that I refuse to cave in to your pressure, your pressure that I take for granted what most White Anglo Saxon Protestants take for granted. Too bad. The very fact that I and many others will not bow to your will is itself proof that your beliefs are not universal, not natural. They are your beliefs, not mine, and stop acting like everyone thinks the way you do. This is the antithesis of our NPOV policy. Slrubenstein | Talk 00:54, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
While I agree with you, Troedel, I have to ask why you don't want to include both systems? That's the NPOV solution. Both views are included and catered for. NPOV does not mean "most neutral". It means "everyone represented". It's so easily done that I'm astonished that we're still arguing about it (but probably shouldn't be). Grace Note 23:37, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
I must disagree, Trodel. It's not a group claiming offense where there is none, it is a group that is looking to avoid POV. I'll admit that I use the AD/BC convention when discussing history informally and I even used it about 10 minutes ago in an edit summary without a second thought, but when I am being careful I use the CE/BCE convention because is derived on the most common basis possible as Slrubenstein pointed out. That most people are unable to appreciate that AD has religous point of view implied in the emytology, does not remove the POV from it's usage. I seem to think the CE/BCE convention would be appealing to the widest possible audience. Even if some users didn't understand it immeditially because they were used to AD/BC, it's not like it takes more than 10 seconds to click on a wikilink to find out what it means. Better yet, why don't we request that the CE/BCE versus BC/AD convention be written to be user-configurable like the current method of displaying dates in various formats is? - SocratesJedi | Talk 00:40, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
I don't see how you can talk about compromise. Slrubenstein has eloquently expressed opposition to "BC" and yet he is willing to support a compromise that includes both views. However, you are not. It's beyond amazement that those who oppose compromise are those who don't actually have a dog in the race! Troedel, explain to me how your use of BC and not BC/BCE is acceptable within the bounds of a policy that says that all views must be represented. Just saying "you're manufacturing the offence" does not wish away the other view, even if it has some truth to it. Grace Note 03:04, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
Jguk, I repeated my critique of your views above, and asked you for a second time to respond to them — and you barely responded. I expressed my reasons again (in the paragraph starting "Jguk, your hysterics do not help." and you haven't (cannot?) respond to that either. Instead, you just continue to protest that your point of view is the true point of view. Jguk, you must have a very small mind if you believe that anyone who disagrees with you is faking it. What kind of world do you live in, where everyone has to agree with you? Slrubenstein | Talk 14:56, 13 May 2005 (UTC)