Ok, so it seems necessary to jump-start this proposal. The current situation is not sustainable, and the compromise proposal didn't fly. Its vote page shows about a 50%/50% split, but closer reading indicates that voters fall into the following 3 camps, each of which is non-trivial in number:
Groups 1 and 2 are utterly irreconcilable, and they're just going to have to accept that neither of them gets to win, IMO. Group 1 would like to argue that group 2 is a fringe minority group, but they are present in large enough numbers at Wikipedia that we can't squash them and still claim to follow a consensus model.
Group 3 need to be convinced that there really is a problem (if there really is one - I'm currently assuming there is), and we need to come up with wording in the MoS that doesn't seem too instruction creepy.
-- Elliskev 19:10, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Now, I suggest, and if nobody talks me out of it, intend to pursue, two lines of attack for this issue. First, there's been some talk about implementing a technical solution, in which users can choose what date format they prefer to view, somewhere in "preferences". That needs following up, independently of whatever happens with this proposal. I might sleep for 8 hours first, but when I wake up, if nobody's done any follow-up at Village pump (technical), I'll get after it.
Secondly, there's this proposal. Since the compromise proposal didn't work, here we are again. We've got, in addition to the status quo version, six alternatives, detailed here at Wikipedia:Eras, all set up for voting of some kind.
I suggest we start working this hydra down to a managable number of heads. First I'll leave this message up for a while and see what other approaches people suggest (that whole sleep thing again...). Then, pending something better coming along, I think we should consider a round of polling on the six alternatives, and possibly some others that nobody's thought of yet. I would suggest a soft poll, consisting of "weak yes" and "weak no" votes, all very non-binding and exploratory just to feel out whether we can narrow the field by eliminating the worst and clunkiest versions. When we've determined which alternatives have some support, we can discuss their particulars in more detail.
What do people think of all this? - GTBacchus( talk) 14:00, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Seems to me that the problem is that the implicit "don't change it if it's already consistent," rule is not stated explicitly, and that there's a lot of people (usually, but not exclusively, advocates of BCE/CE) who like to change articles, and then there are other people who yell at anyone who reverts back. I would suggest that we simply state the "if it's consistent, don't change date format" rule explicitly, and that it be elaborated to indicate that, essentially, from the first time that the article is consistent in terms of what date format it uses, we should use that date format. john k 18:54, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I full heartedly support Dwains version. I'm not going to go out there and change articles that started BCE/CE to BC/AD, but I believe it's wrong that one person can change the entire dating format. PHG starts his articles off with the BCE/CE format, and I won't revert them. If it becomes policy that the creator decides the dating format it will eliminate all the problems IMO. Chooserr 17:13, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
In the mean time I'm going to revert the Sophocles article...which was changed only days ago to the less common BCE/CE system.
I know why no one wants to adopt the Dwain's version...it's because half of the BCE/CE articles would be changed back to BC/AD. I bet there isn't one article on wikipedia using the BC/AD formating that was started as BCE/CE. I dare anyone to find me an article with BC/AD dates that started as BCE/CE... Chooserr
Chooserr did not change wicca to add BC/AD. He removed a completely unnecessary "CE". This is what the Manual of Style says one should do, and I can see nothing wrong with that. john k 18:51, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Is Wikipedia a religious site or is Wikipedia a secular site? In the US government, the separation of Church and State is implied, not explicitly expressed. There are a lot of Christians in this country, yet, we still remove or prohibit anything that remotely resembles a religious (Christian) reference. The point is that Wikipedia is not a religious oriented site, therefore, religious annotation should be discriminated against. Why don't we vote on which religion we should follow and declare Wikipedia the reference site for that religion. Or why don't we stop using religious references and stay consistent with scholarly, scientific, secular thought? Here in the states, slavery was voted (expressly or implicitly) into existed. Does this mean slavery is right or OK? Let's stop contributing to the idea that Christianity is the best religion. Let's move ahead with secular ideas ans secular annotation. Let's stop glorifying one religion over another. Why is the Christian deity better than any other deity? Why are we even talking about deities in this age of enlightenment? Christians have every right to worship whatever they want. why are the rest of us having to follow suit? Why are we forced to frame our dates based upon a potentially fictional character? Stop the madness. THC Loadee ( talk) 20:09, 6 February 2009 (UTC)THC Loadee
That proposal is nothing more than the astronomical year numbering (and since you are using negative numbers, you need to have a zero, which means 27BC would become -26). -- cesarb 19:50, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
This is unacceptable. Either a policy of just using BCE/CE or just using BC/AD would be far superior to this proposal. The first rule of things like this should be "don't make up formats that are only used in Wikipdia." john k 20:01, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Aolanonawanabe, you're right, of course. ISO 8601 is clearly the most appropriate for lots of articles, if not all. Unfortunately, you can't get consensus behind it, and a bunch of articles are going to stay in the Wrong Version, and we're all going to have to live with that. In order for this proposal to move forward, all sides are going to have to accept that they can't win within a consensus framework, and we need to look for a different solution. - GTBacchus( talk) 23:40, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Discussion seems to have died down without final consensus, so I'm going to add my two cents. Because I am a masochist. I think this whole long discussion fits into a wider discussion on the choice between two equally POV usages which has cropped up in other instances on LJ. Other discussions seemed to lean towards "Use as appropriate". For example, in March 2005 it was decided that Gdansk would be used for clearly Polish times and areas of discussion, while Danzig would be used for clearly German times and areas and "Gdansk (formerly Danzig)" or "Danzig (now Gdansk)" should be used where there is overlap or uncertainty. Should we not take a lead from this?
This is basically a vote for compromise. Define where a apparently European/Christian POV is appropriate and where a pointedly non-Christian POV is appropriate (e.g. in my opinion, in articles regarding non-Christian religions), and use both everywhere else. I know there has been plenty of contention over where those POVs are appropriate (including both variations on "Nowhere!"), but I think it should be agreed that consensus towards one particular system is unlikely. Decide to compromise, and then decide (reasonably) exactly where the lines of the consensus will be drawn.
(If it were not for the apparent consensus [or is it full policy?] against Wikipedia-specific systems, I would suggest that all dates be uniformly converted to BW and AW [Before Wikipedia and After Wikipedia], measuring 2000AD/CE as 1BW and 2001 as 1AW! Would a Wikipedia-centric POV be neutral, given that Wikipedia itself is neutral? Or attempts to be?) Xander 10:21, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I dont see why we have to compromise at all; why are we even discussing this, given the rarety of CE notation in general literature?
1/ i have never seen any evidence that a significant amount of people are actually offended by the 'religious' terms AD and BC.
untill we do, i suggest we assume that most people treat AD and BC the same as "thor'sday" (ie dont care).
2/ we are not an organisation for promoting stylistic change, so we should not play a part in trying to oust the standard ways of reffering to time by using the uncommon and controversial BCE and CE.. AD and BC are the standard. if and when that changes, then our articles should change -- untill then, we should keep AD and BC.
just make the policy be to use AD and BC. if the world changes and adopts CE and BCE, then we can make a bot to edit all our articles
honestly. it reminds me of the claim that 'history' is masogonistic -- Dak 03:54, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
having said that -- and, whilst im still for simply allways using ad/bc -- i've added another compromise option to the straw poll, if anyone's interested. -- Dak 15:35, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Instead, it is an issue of Nuetrality among all Religions. "You" may feel like BC/AD are "Right" and you may choose to ignore the existence of all other methods, and you may decide that "your" system is perfect and makes sense but you are not the majority. No one knows who the majority really is. People in China don't care about "Before Christ" and they make up a hefty chunk of the world pop. Should we use their system?
This is ridiculous. I'll say that again - THIS IS RIDICULOUS. The BCE/CE system was designed so that the world can have a system that will be nuetral to everyone. No one is telling you to start crossing the AD off of your calendar and changing it to CE. You can call it whatever you want, and write whatever you want. It is YOUR choice. But this isn't the Calendar hangning by a magnet on your fridge. This is wikipedia - and just like historic and scientific articles that now through modern communication and the internet are being read the world over - we need to be nuetral. Why? Because why should we pick any one way to do something that caters to only one group? If BC and AD are the standard here, then why don't we start putting pictures of Jesus everywhere and ending every article with "God Bless". Because it is ridiculous - that is why. Because it doesn't make sense to pick one groups method. BCE and CE were made FOR religious people AND non-religious people. It didn't get invented in some dark basement by evil christian haters. It was used like everything else in the world today - a way to not offend people since generally, as is the case here, no ONE group is ever the majority.
I saw one person here claim that Politcal Correctness shouldn't apply here. Then where should it apply? Do you call mentally disabled people Retards? Do you call members of the Gay Community Queers and Fags? So when should we NOT use it then, everytime YOU dont like it? THAT IS RIDICULOUS.
I 100% disagree with the use of BC/AD. I personally use them all the time and find zero offense to either method. This has nothing to do with offensiveness - in fact it is only offensive to some, whether it is BC or BCE ect... a group of people will always dislike it. However Wikipedia is not censored. But more importantly, it should be set to a more "global standard" so to speak. Many religions and groups of people may have different uses, dates, names, and so on. Each group of people no doubt finds their own way superior, and none of these methods are compatible. So, most importantly, Wikipedia readers are not all christian, not even mostly christian. There is an extremely large number of different Religions, Races, Backgrounds, Nationalities ect... So in this case, as in all similar cases (whenever possible) a standard that can fit them all should be use.
BCE/CE are in no way "Godless", they are two abbreviations - they do not carry any other meaning aside from what they stand for, BCE = Before the Common Era and CE = Common Era. There is no Godlessness or attempt to Expunge Religion in those words. BCE does not mean "Christianity is Wrong". It carries NO Religious or Non-Religious meaning. But AD/BC implicitly imply Religion and to a further extent, Christianty as being central to all dates. Try to remember that although YOU may believe in something, not everyone does. For example, there is no page on Wikipedia called "True Prohphet" that names Jesus or Muhammad or whoever as the One TRUE Prophet. Why? Because people believe different things. In that case however, there is no "middle ground"
But here there is. BCE/CE can be applied to everyone. And only people who invent their own meanings will take offence (and thus those people will find offense for themselves elsewhere, even if they are appeased on this matter). BCE/CE does not change the dates, it doesn't shift the entire system around. It is just a name used to fit with everyone. We should not use BC for example, which stands for Before Christ because 1) not everyone even believes Christ was a person, 2) Those who do may have their own names for the split 3) Some may have a different calandar system altogether. Just like there is no page claiming a True Prophet, the BC/AD system shouldn't be used because it does not apply to everyone.
But no matter who you are, what religion you are, The Era since the supposed time of Christ can easily be thought of as the recent, or Common Era. The era before that? Before the Common Era. NO ONE who truly understands that this is a nuetral postion should be upset by these abbr. (unless, like I said, they are looking to be offended or find an opportunity to preach their convictions and beliefs while bashing others).
In fact, Religious Nuetrality was the EXACT reason for this method. It has NOTHING to do with Atheism or Godlessness or whatever you want to call it. It is meant for ALL RELIGIONS. If there were a Non-Religious system then the date would have no split, and would start either from the beginning of the Universe or the Beginning of the Earth. (and besides, if it REALLY bothers you as a christian, just read it as BCE - Before Christ Existed and CE - Christ Exists)
But in all seriousness - anything but a nuetral position is in violation of the No Bias policy. If you think I am biased, then bring in a bunch of people who are neither Christian nor Non-Religious - since they have no bias, they are the best candidates to discuss a Nuetral System or the BC/AD system. Alex DeLarge 12:50, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
Ok, so it seems necessary to jump-start this proposal. The current situation is not sustainable, and the compromise proposal didn't fly. Its vote page shows about a 50%/50% split, but closer reading indicates that voters fall into the following 3 camps, each of which is non-trivial in number:
Groups 1 and 2 are utterly irreconcilable, and they're just going to have to accept that neither of them gets to win, IMO. Group 1 would like to argue that group 2 is a fringe minority group, but they are present in large enough numbers at Wikipedia that we can't squash them and still claim to follow a consensus model.
Group 3 need to be convinced that there really is a problem (if there really is one - I'm currently assuming there is), and we need to come up with wording in the MoS that doesn't seem too instruction creepy.
-- Elliskev 19:10, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Now, I suggest, and if nobody talks me out of it, intend to pursue, two lines of attack for this issue. First, there's been some talk about implementing a technical solution, in which users can choose what date format they prefer to view, somewhere in "preferences". That needs following up, independently of whatever happens with this proposal. I might sleep for 8 hours first, but when I wake up, if nobody's done any follow-up at Village pump (technical), I'll get after it.
Secondly, there's this proposal. Since the compromise proposal didn't work, here we are again. We've got, in addition to the status quo version, six alternatives, detailed here at Wikipedia:Eras, all set up for voting of some kind.
I suggest we start working this hydra down to a managable number of heads. First I'll leave this message up for a while and see what other approaches people suggest (that whole sleep thing again...). Then, pending something better coming along, I think we should consider a round of polling on the six alternatives, and possibly some others that nobody's thought of yet. I would suggest a soft poll, consisting of "weak yes" and "weak no" votes, all very non-binding and exploratory just to feel out whether we can narrow the field by eliminating the worst and clunkiest versions. When we've determined which alternatives have some support, we can discuss their particulars in more detail.
What do people think of all this? - GTBacchus( talk) 14:00, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Seems to me that the problem is that the implicit "don't change it if it's already consistent," rule is not stated explicitly, and that there's a lot of people (usually, but not exclusively, advocates of BCE/CE) who like to change articles, and then there are other people who yell at anyone who reverts back. I would suggest that we simply state the "if it's consistent, don't change date format" rule explicitly, and that it be elaborated to indicate that, essentially, from the first time that the article is consistent in terms of what date format it uses, we should use that date format. john k 18:54, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I full heartedly support Dwains version. I'm not going to go out there and change articles that started BCE/CE to BC/AD, but I believe it's wrong that one person can change the entire dating format. PHG starts his articles off with the BCE/CE format, and I won't revert them. If it becomes policy that the creator decides the dating format it will eliminate all the problems IMO. Chooserr 17:13, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
In the mean time I'm going to revert the Sophocles article...which was changed only days ago to the less common BCE/CE system.
I know why no one wants to adopt the Dwain's version...it's because half of the BCE/CE articles would be changed back to BC/AD. I bet there isn't one article on wikipedia using the BC/AD formating that was started as BCE/CE. I dare anyone to find me an article with BC/AD dates that started as BCE/CE... Chooserr
Chooserr did not change wicca to add BC/AD. He removed a completely unnecessary "CE". This is what the Manual of Style says one should do, and I can see nothing wrong with that. john k 18:51, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Is Wikipedia a religious site or is Wikipedia a secular site? In the US government, the separation of Church and State is implied, not explicitly expressed. There are a lot of Christians in this country, yet, we still remove or prohibit anything that remotely resembles a religious (Christian) reference. The point is that Wikipedia is not a religious oriented site, therefore, religious annotation should be discriminated against. Why don't we vote on which religion we should follow and declare Wikipedia the reference site for that religion. Or why don't we stop using religious references and stay consistent with scholarly, scientific, secular thought? Here in the states, slavery was voted (expressly or implicitly) into existed. Does this mean slavery is right or OK? Let's stop contributing to the idea that Christianity is the best religion. Let's move ahead with secular ideas ans secular annotation. Let's stop glorifying one religion over another. Why is the Christian deity better than any other deity? Why are we even talking about deities in this age of enlightenment? Christians have every right to worship whatever they want. why are the rest of us having to follow suit? Why are we forced to frame our dates based upon a potentially fictional character? Stop the madness. THC Loadee ( talk) 20:09, 6 February 2009 (UTC)THC Loadee
That proposal is nothing more than the astronomical year numbering (and since you are using negative numbers, you need to have a zero, which means 27BC would become -26). -- cesarb 19:50, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
This is unacceptable. Either a policy of just using BCE/CE or just using BC/AD would be far superior to this proposal. The first rule of things like this should be "don't make up formats that are only used in Wikipdia." john k 20:01, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Aolanonawanabe, you're right, of course. ISO 8601 is clearly the most appropriate for lots of articles, if not all. Unfortunately, you can't get consensus behind it, and a bunch of articles are going to stay in the Wrong Version, and we're all going to have to live with that. In order for this proposal to move forward, all sides are going to have to accept that they can't win within a consensus framework, and we need to look for a different solution. - GTBacchus( talk) 23:40, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Discussion seems to have died down without final consensus, so I'm going to add my two cents. Because I am a masochist. I think this whole long discussion fits into a wider discussion on the choice between two equally POV usages which has cropped up in other instances on LJ. Other discussions seemed to lean towards "Use as appropriate". For example, in March 2005 it was decided that Gdansk would be used for clearly Polish times and areas of discussion, while Danzig would be used for clearly German times and areas and "Gdansk (formerly Danzig)" or "Danzig (now Gdansk)" should be used where there is overlap or uncertainty. Should we not take a lead from this?
This is basically a vote for compromise. Define where a apparently European/Christian POV is appropriate and where a pointedly non-Christian POV is appropriate (e.g. in my opinion, in articles regarding non-Christian religions), and use both everywhere else. I know there has been plenty of contention over where those POVs are appropriate (including both variations on "Nowhere!"), but I think it should be agreed that consensus towards one particular system is unlikely. Decide to compromise, and then decide (reasonably) exactly where the lines of the consensus will be drawn.
(If it were not for the apparent consensus [or is it full policy?] against Wikipedia-specific systems, I would suggest that all dates be uniformly converted to BW and AW [Before Wikipedia and After Wikipedia], measuring 2000AD/CE as 1BW and 2001 as 1AW! Would a Wikipedia-centric POV be neutral, given that Wikipedia itself is neutral? Or attempts to be?) Xander 10:21, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I dont see why we have to compromise at all; why are we even discussing this, given the rarety of CE notation in general literature?
1/ i have never seen any evidence that a significant amount of people are actually offended by the 'religious' terms AD and BC.
untill we do, i suggest we assume that most people treat AD and BC the same as "thor'sday" (ie dont care).
2/ we are not an organisation for promoting stylistic change, so we should not play a part in trying to oust the standard ways of reffering to time by using the uncommon and controversial BCE and CE.. AD and BC are the standard. if and when that changes, then our articles should change -- untill then, we should keep AD and BC.
just make the policy be to use AD and BC. if the world changes and adopts CE and BCE, then we can make a bot to edit all our articles
honestly. it reminds me of the claim that 'history' is masogonistic -- Dak 03:54, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
having said that -- and, whilst im still for simply allways using ad/bc -- i've added another compromise option to the straw poll, if anyone's interested. -- Dak 15:35, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Instead, it is an issue of Nuetrality among all Religions. "You" may feel like BC/AD are "Right" and you may choose to ignore the existence of all other methods, and you may decide that "your" system is perfect and makes sense but you are not the majority. No one knows who the majority really is. People in China don't care about "Before Christ" and they make up a hefty chunk of the world pop. Should we use their system?
This is ridiculous. I'll say that again - THIS IS RIDICULOUS. The BCE/CE system was designed so that the world can have a system that will be nuetral to everyone. No one is telling you to start crossing the AD off of your calendar and changing it to CE. You can call it whatever you want, and write whatever you want. It is YOUR choice. But this isn't the Calendar hangning by a magnet on your fridge. This is wikipedia - and just like historic and scientific articles that now through modern communication and the internet are being read the world over - we need to be nuetral. Why? Because why should we pick any one way to do something that caters to only one group? If BC and AD are the standard here, then why don't we start putting pictures of Jesus everywhere and ending every article with "God Bless". Because it is ridiculous - that is why. Because it doesn't make sense to pick one groups method. BCE and CE were made FOR religious people AND non-religious people. It didn't get invented in some dark basement by evil christian haters. It was used like everything else in the world today - a way to not offend people since generally, as is the case here, no ONE group is ever the majority.
I saw one person here claim that Politcal Correctness shouldn't apply here. Then where should it apply? Do you call mentally disabled people Retards? Do you call members of the Gay Community Queers and Fags? So when should we NOT use it then, everytime YOU dont like it? THAT IS RIDICULOUS.
I 100% disagree with the use of BC/AD. I personally use them all the time and find zero offense to either method. This has nothing to do with offensiveness - in fact it is only offensive to some, whether it is BC or BCE ect... a group of people will always dislike it. However Wikipedia is not censored. But more importantly, it should be set to a more "global standard" so to speak. Many religions and groups of people may have different uses, dates, names, and so on. Each group of people no doubt finds their own way superior, and none of these methods are compatible. So, most importantly, Wikipedia readers are not all christian, not even mostly christian. There is an extremely large number of different Religions, Races, Backgrounds, Nationalities ect... So in this case, as in all similar cases (whenever possible) a standard that can fit them all should be use.
BCE/CE are in no way "Godless", they are two abbreviations - they do not carry any other meaning aside from what they stand for, BCE = Before the Common Era and CE = Common Era. There is no Godlessness or attempt to Expunge Religion in those words. BCE does not mean "Christianity is Wrong". It carries NO Religious or Non-Religious meaning. But AD/BC implicitly imply Religion and to a further extent, Christianty as being central to all dates. Try to remember that although YOU may believe in something, not everyone does. For example, there is no page on Wikipedia called "True Prohphet" that names Jesus or Muhammad or whoever as the One TRUE Prophet. Why? Because people believe different things. In that case however, there is no "middle ground"
But here there is. BCE/CE can be applied to everyone. And only people who invent their own meanings will take offence (and thus those people will find offense for themselves elsewhere, even if they are appeased on this matter). BCE/CE does not change the dates, it doesn't shift the entire system around. It is just a name used to fit with everyone. We should not use BC for example, which stands for Before Christ because 1) not everyone even believes Christ was a person, 2) Those who do may have their own names for the split 3) Some may have a different calandar system altogether. Just like there is no page claiming a True Prophet, the BC/AD system shouldn't be used because it does not apply to everyone.
But no matter who you are, what religion you are, The Era since the supposed time of Christ can easily be thought of as the recent, or Common Era. The era before that? Before the Common Era. NO ONE who truly understands that this is a nuetral postion should be upset by these abbr. (unless, like I said, they are looking to be offended or find an opportunity to preach their convictions and beliefs while bashing others).
In fact, Religious Nuetrality was the EXACT reason for this method. It has NOTHING to do with Atheism or Godlessness or whatever you want to call it. It is meant for ALL RELIGIONS. If there were a Non-Religious system then the date would have no split, and would start either from the beginning of the Universe or the Beginning of the Earth. (and besides, if it REALLY bothers you as a christian, just read it as BCE - Before Christ Existed and CE - Christ Exists)
But in all seriousness - anything but a nuetral position is in violation of the No Bias policy. If you think I am biased, then bring in a bunch of people who are neither Christian nor Non-Religious - since they have no bias, they are the best candidates to discuss a Nuetral System or the BC/AD system. Alex DeLarge 12:50, 25 May 2010 (UTC)