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Gdańsk (Danzig) Vote. The following rules apply in the case of disputes:
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This page is a vote to decide the usage of the name of Gdansk/ Danzig. This is a source of edit wars on dozens of articles mentioning the city on Wikipedia. There is a lengthy discussion on Talk:Gdansk and its archives, listing nearly every argument imaginable. Numerous previous attempts to reach a consensus have been unsuccessful, hence requiring a vote to end dozens of disputes and edit wars. Due to the complexity of the problem, there are six periods to vote for, plus three additional clauses. To avoid further edit wars, an enforcement is also voted on, allowing the revert of edits that violate the guidelines determined by this vote.
There are a total of 10 points to vote on.
The voting Period starts on Friday, February 18 0:00 and ends Friday, March 4 0:00
City document seal of 1224 states: Sigillum Burgensium Dantzike Before 1308: A city in Pomerania, part of Poland. The name used to refer to the city before 1308 should be:
"Danzig (Polish: Gdansk) was founded in 1224/25 as a German city within the Principality of Pommerellen", see short history of Danzig (in English): http://www.z-g-v.de/english/aktuelles/?id=56#danziger
Founding the city? period before 1308
The name used in Wikipedia to refer to the city before 1308 is Gdansk, also subject to the results of votes #7: Biographies and #8: Cross-naming below.
1308: Teutonic Knights: The name used to refer to the city between 1308 and 1454 should be:
The name used in Wikipedia to refer to the city between 1308 to 1454 is Danzig, also subject to the results of votes #7: Biographies and #8: Cross-naming below.
1454: Prussian Confederation: The name used to refer to the city between 1454 to 1466 should be:
The name used in Wikipedia to refer to the city between 1454 to 1466 is Danzig, also subject to the results of votes #7: Biographies and #8: Cross-naming below.
Danzig info also on Talk:Gdansk/Vote/discussion 1466: Second Treaty of Thorn returns the city and Royal Prussia to Polish suzerainty/overlordship. It is de facto a self-governed city republic, mainly with German inhabitants, using the German name Danzig or something similar: The name used to refer to the city between 1466 to 1793 should be:
The name used in Wikipedia to refer to the city between 1466 to 1793 is Danzig, also subject to the results of votes #7: Biographies and #8: Cross-naming below.
1793: Second Partition of Poland. Becomes a part of the Kingdom of Prussia, and again from 1813/ 1815 to 1920. Free City of Danzig from 1807-1813/1815 and again 1920-1939. From 1939 it is reannexed by Germany. The name used to refer to the city between 1794 to 1945 should be:
The name used in Wikipedia to refer to the city between 1793 to 1945 is Danzig, also subject to the results of votes #7: Biographies and #8: Cross-naming below.
1945: Seized by the Soviet Army, given to Poland: The name used to refer to the city after 1945 should be:
The name used in Wikipedia to refer to the city between after 1945 is Gdansk, also subject to the results of votes #7: Biographies and #8: Cross-naming below.
In biographies of clearly German persons, the name should be used in the form Danzig (Gdansk) and later Danzig exclusively. In biographies of clearly Polish persons, the name should be used in the form Gdansk (Danzig) and later Gdansk exclusively. Persons controversial follow the guidelines according to the applicable period as decided above. Similar applies to other place names in the region that shares a history between Poland and Germany.
The proposal is accepted. In biographies of clearly German persons, the first occurrence of the name should be used in the form Danzig (Gdansk) and later Danzig exclusively. In biographies of clearly Polish persons, the first occurrence of the name should be used in the form Gdansk (Danzig) and later Gdansk exclusively. Persons controversial follow the guidelines according to the applicable period as decided above. Similar applies to other place names in the region that shares a history between Poland and Germany.
Notes: This applies to both before and after 1945. Linking to Gdansk would be useful. Minor variations of the text are permissible, i.e. Danzig (now Gdansk) instead of Danzig (Gdansk)
The first reference of one name for Gdansk/Danzig in an article should also include a reference to the other name, e.g. Danzig (now Gdansk, Poland) or Gdansk (Danzig)
The proposal is accepted. The first reference of one name for Gdansk/Danzig in an article should also include a reference to the other name, e.g. Danzig (now Gdansk, Poland) or Gdansk (Danzig). All later occurrences of the name follow the rules for the periods as voted above.
Notes: This applies to both before and after 1945. Linking to Gdansk would be useful. Minor variations of the text are permissible, i.e. Danzig (Gdansk) instead of Danzig (now Gdansk). This rule is to be followed in the case of a dispute, if there is no dispute, deviations from this rule are possible.
The naming of many places in the region that share a history between Germany and Poland are also a source of edit wars. For these places, the first reference of one name should also include a reference to other commonly used names, e.g. Stettin (now Szczecin, Poland) or Szczecin (Stettin). An English language reference that primarily uses this name should be provided on the talk page if a dispute arises.
The proposal is accepted. For locations that share a history between Germany and Poland, the first reference of one name should also include a reference to other commonly used names, e.g. Stettin (now Szczecin, Poland) or Szczecin (Stettin). An English language reference that primarily uses this name should be provided on the talk page if a dispute arises.
Notes: This applies to both before and after 1945. Linking would be useful. Minor variations of the text are permissible, i.e. Stettin (Szczecin) instead of Stettin (now Szczecin). This rule is to be followed in the case of a dispute, if there is no dispute, deviations from this rule are possible.
Violations against the rule established by the outcome of this vote can be reverted as simple vandalism. In more complex edits, only the place names can be reverted as simple vandalism according to the outcome of this vote, additional changes are not considered simple vandalism. The reverted user should receive a note or link of the vote results on this page. Persistent reverts in violation of the outcome of this vote may be dealt with according to the rules in Wikipedia:Dealing with vandalism.
The proposal is accepted. Violations against the rule established by the outcome of this vote can be reverted exempt from the 3RR rule. In more complex edits, only the place names can be reverted exempt from the 3RR rule according to the outcome of this vote, additional changes fall again under the 3RR rule. The reverted user should receive a note or link of the vote results on this page. Persistent reverts in violation of the outcome of this vote despite multiple warnings may be dealt with according to the rules in Wikipedia:Dealing with vandalism.
Note: Many voters disliked the labeling as vandalism. Hence the wording of the vote was modified slightly, still having similar effects but avoiding the label vandalism. In case of problems, assume good faith, don't bite newcomers, and inform the other user about the results of this vote. Reverts to confirm with community consensus are excluded from the 3RR rule. Only persistent reverts against community consensus despite multiple warnings may be dealt with according to the rules in Wikipedia:Dealing with vandalism. This may include blocking users that persistently oppose community consensus as established by this vote.
Dear Wikipedians!
Every article mentioning Danzig must refer to Gdansk for is equally difficult to find Nieuw Amsterdam on popular maps. Mentioning Danzig in post-45 articles is surly as awkward and certainly more irritating for it’s inhabitants than the eventual “New Orleans (Nouvelle-Orléans)” tag in the US city list. IYKWIM!
And let me warn you: omnipresent cross-naming of all secondary towns, then villages, rivers, mountains, caps, islands and lakes according to all the historically and linguistically tenable variations to make justice to all tribes, nations and groups that have once inhabited those places may lead to confusion, insomnia and nervous disorders! -- Mr. Wszedroik Feb 19, 2005
The vote is aimed to resolve a large number of naming disputes. Of course, future votes may override the outcome of this vote. Until then, valid results of this vote are the community consensus, and should be enforced. I think the enforcement is possible even without an extra vote on enforcement, but to be on the safe side, I have added this as a vote topic. Previously, any compromise or majority view was ignored by one party, leading to dozens of revert wars. This vote is there to stop revert wars and to enforce community consensus. -- Chris 73 Talk 02:58, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC)
Seeing as the current vote is 13-16 to use Gdansk for the 1466-1793 period, but almost unanimously to use Danzig both before and after, I thought I'd recopy my argument from Talk:Gdansk at why we should use Danzig:
1) English language sources generally use Danzig when referring to the city at this time. General use textbooks like John Elliott's Europe Divided 1559-1598, Geoffrey Parker's Europe in Crisis 1598-1648, William Doyle's The Old European Order 1660-1800, McKay and Scott's The Rise of the Great Powers 1648-1815, Jeremy Black's The Rise of the European Powers 1679-1793, and so forth, all refer to the city as "Danzig". A JSTOR search shows a limited number of references to the city as "Gdansk" - only 61 articles total mention "Gdansk", and many of those are references to the city since 1945. There are, on the other hand, 552 articles which mention "Danzig", and many of them are discussing the eighteenth century and earlier. [this is a JSTOR search of articles in the 56 journals that are classified as historical. A few of these articles, but not very many, will be from before 1945]
2) This English usage makes sense. The city was primarily a linguistically German city from the early 14th century on. Since 1945 it has been a linguistically Polish city. It makes sense to make the name switch only in 1945, because this corresponds to a major shift in the city that did not occur in 1454 or 1793.
3) These two factors alone should be sufficient to make the case. Now, one might argue perfectly rationally that it would make perfect sense to just call the city "Gdansk" throughout, or to complicatedly switch it depending on whether or not it was under Polish or German sovereignty. But only one usage has the support of common English usage, and that is using "Danzig" for the city for the entire 1308-1945 period. If it was common in English to use "Gdansk" for its whole history, or for its history before 1793, it would make sense for wikipedia to do that as well, whatever its inhabitants may or may not have called it. But that is not how it is done. "Danzig" is the main name used for this period, and Wikipedia should follow that usage. john k 14:34, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I definitely Agree with you Aegis. Furthermore, John Kenney's claims that this is an English speaking internet side should have no impact on how is the city named. In fact, the city is a matter of importance mostly to Poles and Germans and not the Americans. Moreover, as you said in the English-speaking World there is a tendency to favor German speaking "propaganda" simply because it is more accesible or should I say, tangible and also because it's either the German translation, in German or especially written by people of German ancestry. As of 2005, it is of course the largest ancestry in the United States. Another argument is that in fact, Germans are culturally and linguistically closer to the English-speaking nations while Poles, as a Slavic nation is further away in both linguistic and cultural spheres. I believe that part of the modern-day arguments on Gdansk were in fact constructed by German Americans and adjusted to the Anglo-Saxon way of thinking or should I say the anglo-conformity of the Middle America. There is another point that John Kenney is raising, with regards to the pre-1945 Polish name of Szczecin and while he claims that is of little importance as a matter of fact it is in fact not the case because this name was already present in the Polish language since the 16th century and not under its 11th century archaic, Pomeranian spellings. Perhaps John Kenney should know that the towns that were once under a Polish Pommeranian rule before the 12th century and before being germanized actually had Polish names ( although some of them under what is now considered archaic forms ) and yes, that includes also some towns in today's Germany ( Stralsund/Strzałowo, Rostock/Roztoka, Wolgast/Wołogoszcz, Demmin/Dymin, Pasewalk/Pozdawilk, Lebus/Lubusz ) and many smaller towns as well. Those names were not created by any post-1945 propaganda. I understand John Kenney's fascination with everything German but let's face it, even in this article, talking VERY specifically about Gdansk's name, he used the word Gdansk without a ń in it, while in this same article he managed to write Köln with an umlaut. Perhaps it's not significant to some but think again Köln is not part of any linguistic discussion or hardly an "expected" comparison. Also, John Kenney, do not erase my discussion page again as you did on the Tallinn, Estonia page when the issue of the German name was discussed on the 31st of January 2005 and when in fact, Mr. Kenney erased my discussion with no answer or no legitimate argument in favor of his pro-German argument in the discussion section, when I clearly inquired about the name as can be seen in the talk history on this page. [ [2]] VicFromTheBlock 04:55, Mar 02, 2005 (UTC)
Aegis - you seem to be missing the fact that policy on wikipedia is to use the forms most commonly used in English. I'd also add that the fact that the city of Gdansk/Danzig was in Poland in the 18th century and earlier says very little about what we should call it - the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was not a nation-state, and as such, being part of the Kingdom of Poland did not mean that the Polish language had very much to do with the city. As to counting contributions - it is unfair if users from the Polish wikipedia flood the vote here. I would not vote on the Polish wikipedia in a similar instance.
john
k 18:18, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I'll add that the idea that "Szczecin" is the original name of Stettin is absurd. That spelling was never used until 1945. (well, maybe Polish people used it when referring to the city, but that's irrelevant, as it was not part of Poland). john k 18:20, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This is my feeling as well. I would say that the answer to the first question is mostly, but not entirely, Danzig for the 1466-1793 period, and always Danzig for the 1793-1945 period (I don't know enough about medieval historical literature to guess at what its called prior to the 16th century or so). The question of what a modern English-speaking person would look for is, as you say, less clear cut. I do think that this should be less of an issue, because we will of course have redirects, and, presumably, parentheticals, to clarify that the two cities are the same.
Another point: For those of you impressed by the fact that Gdansk/Danzig was under Polish sovereignty from 1466-1793, notice that we don't use this as the basis for how we name cities in other early modern contexts. Most of modern day Belgium and Luxembourg were under Spanish control in the 16th and 17th centuries, and then under Austrian control in the 18th century. We don't refer to their cities by Spanish or German names in those periods. Nor do we use Spanish or German names to refer to Italian cities under Spanish or Austrian rule in the same time period. Of course, many (but not all) of the big cities in these regions have English names of their own, and it is not as though Brussels was emptied of its French and Flemish speaking inhabitants in 1945 and replaced by Spaniards, but the comparison seems adequate enough. john k 14:47, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I agree that this is perfectly fine for most articles. But there remains the question of what to do about the articles Gdansk and History of Gdansk. john k 22:34, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Anonymous user 67.182.169.44 added this to the intro of this vote's section. I moved it here because poll options should not be changed after voting starts. — Charles P. (Mirv) 20:10, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
1466 and 1525 agreements were not authorized nore recognized by the HRE emperors, nore the popes, the supreme overlords.
John, the Low Countries example is nice, but we have also an example of modern towns in the US of A inhabitated mostly by non-English speakers. Following your logic, the WP should honour the local inhabitants and use the local, unofficial name rather than the English name of the places in question. Halibu tt 02:59, Feb 25, 2005 (UTC)
Halibutt: A) Can you name any such town? There are certainly towns in Texas, like Brownsville, that are in areas mostly inhabited by Mexicans, but I have never heard of Spanish names for them. However, I think there is an enormous difference between a modern state and an eighteenth century one. The idea of a national language simply wasn't present in the eighteenth century, certainly not in a state like the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, and the idea that because a city was in that state, it should be called by its Polish name, is a retrospective application of current ideas of the nation-state onto a state that doesn't fit such a pattern. I used the example of the Netherlands because it is from the same period as Danzig/Gdansk under the PLC. On the other hand, Brownsville, Texas, is just not directly comparable (and I have yet to see proof that Chicanos there call it something other than Brownsville, in spite of being 91% Hispanic). Furthermore, this has never been my main point, at any rate. Whether or not the inhabitants of Brownsville call it something in Spanish, the basic fact remains that it is universally called Brownsville in English language sources. The same is not true for Danzig from 1466-1793; most sources call it Danzig, and not Gdansk, although I would love to see a citation of sources that call it Gdansk - there's certainly a few on JSTOR, but not terribly many, and not nearly as many as call it Danzig. john k 06:43, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Interesting. Of course, that example is rather a double-edged sword, no, since it implies that the Danzigers were trying to speak to them in German? At any rate, my point about official languages is such: sure, the PLC conducted its own affairs in Polish or Latin, or what not. But, this does not imply that every city within it must have one of those languages as its official language. Danzig is a notable instance of this, as the municipal government almost certainly did its transactions in German (or Latin, perhaps). While Polish, Latin, and Ruthene may have been the national languages, that doesn't mean that the use of German within Danzig was somehow unofficial, like the use of "Jackowo" in Green Point, Brooklyn. In this period of time, many different linguistic usages can coexist, and claiming that the modern designation of Polish as the official language of Poland is not substantively different from the situation in a very loosely constituted early modern state remains unconvincing. So, at any rate, given that Danzig has not been proved to be a nickname like Jackowo, I think that your argument doesn't work. At any rate, I'm going to go back again to the "English usage" issue, and once again note that English usage is to call it Danzig. Calling it Danzig until 1945 and then switching is also a sensible position, because mass population transfer is substantively different from a simple transfer of sovereignty. john k 16:19, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Several wikipedians have questions about what English users called the Hanse city of Danzig, particularly in the 1466-1793 timeframe. Here is a book, that documents Scotland-Germany trade and immigration to the Prussian Hanse cities of Elbing and Danzig http://www.electricscotland.com/history/germany/commerce.htm
While on most of the poll questions we seem to have vast majorities one way or the other, no matter how it turns out, the question of what to call the city 1466-1793 looks like it will be closely divided. How is this poll to be interepreted? Should it be simply 50%+1 wins? That seems unsatisfactory. (And how do we deal with voters who are, uh, new to the English wikipedia?)
A further question: given that 1308-1466 and 1793-1945 at Danzig look to be pretty set, I'd be interested to see how those of you voting for just the 1466-1793 period to be Gdansk would have this dealt with in the history section of Gdansk. It strikes me that this would be a horribly awkward way to do things, and I feel that there should be some presumption on those of you supporting it to at least make a case for why and how we would do that. (If we had a strong force to simply call it "Gdansk" before 1793, or to call it "Gdansk" throughout, I would not be asking this, as either of these would be a fairly simple solution. But calling it "Gdansk" only from 1466 to 1793 seems like the worst of all possible worlds - we don't use the name which is most commonly used for that period, but we also have to switch mercilessly and confusingly between names in 1466 and 1793. I'll add that this is a problem really only with the Gdansk article itself and the History of Gdansk article. In other articles - especially given the likely-to-be-voted-in-rule about biographies and the use of parentheticals - there is no real problem with calling it whatever one wants whenever one wants.) john k 07:42, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Some inline discussion moved here, from #VOTE:_Cross-Naming_Gdansk.2FDanzig. -- Curps 12:37, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Sca 19:57, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It may be noted, that when English hired craftsmen from Danzig/Gdansk to their first colony in America, they were called as "Pollacks" (at that time it was not derogative it seems) or Polonians. It means that either ethnic Germans considered themselves Poles, or they lived enough Poles in Gdansk to hire them for colony. Szopen 09:38, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It means nothing of the sort. It means that English people called the residents of Danzig/Gdansk Polacks, because they were from Poland. This implies nothing about their ethnic origins or self-identity. At any rate, even if they considered themselves "Polish" (in the sense of being part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) that does not mean that they considered themselves to be "Poles" in the sense of ethnicity or nationality. john k 21:32, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I would say it was a period somewhat to considerably before the modern idea of nationalism was established. But there were certainly ideas of national identity about. The Polish nobility certainly saw itself as Polish in a sense not too far off from modern senses of national identity. Now, the question of what the national identity of the inhabitants of the city under discussion was is interesting, but not really relevant, because the idea of linguistic nationality had not yet been developed. That is, the German-speaking inhabitants of Danzig might very well have considered themselves Polish in some sense, but that doesn't mean that they thought their city ought to be called Gdansk - in the 18th century and earlier, language and ideas of the nation are not yet interrelated in the way they become in the 19th century. So you can perfectly well have quasi-nationalistic Hungarian nobility who can't speak Magyar, and so forth. Of course, ideas of national identity themselves are less established, too, but that's a secondary point, since the basic point is that the national identity question simply isn't important in a discussion of what language the name should be discussed in. If that makes sense. john k 18:28, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Well, if we will look on langauage of majority in cities we can have some paradoxes. According to this idea Paul von Hindenburg was born in Poznań, not Posen, because in 1847 Poles were majority (see Historical population of Poznan). Radomil 21:03, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Is it just me, or were there more votes here before the crash? Everyone should check and make sure their votes are still there. 130.91.46.11 23:15, 22 Feb 2005 (UTC) (sorry, that was me. john k 23:19, 22 Feb 2005 (UTC))
As there seems to be some agreement to my opinion that one name should be used throughout, I figured I'd might as well try to expand on it. First of all, I was only drawn to this page by the notice on Goings On, so although I haven't witnessed any of the original edit wars nor been through any of the discussion they prompted, I do have the advantage of seeing this issue from the point of view of an outsider. To me, it seems that the discussion of when the city was Gdansk and when it was Danzig is a very interesting one, full of valid arguments from both sides, but should not have any impact on how Wikipedia refers to the city. The English Wikipedia is an English encyclopedia, and as such should always use the current, English, names to refer to foreign places. Any discussion of other names and when they were used should be reserved exclusively for the main body of that place's article.
If this seems incorrect, consider inproper nouns: if were talking about apples from France, does it make sense to refer to them as "pommes" instead? Or maybe "apples (pommes)" or "pommes (apples)"? I don't think so, and I don't think there's a difference between that and the case in question. -- Jwanders 14:42, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Ok, I'll grant that the current English for the city is different for different time periods, that using one name throughout would produce inaccuracies. But isn't that the lesser evil when compared to defining a policy around all the name changes? The changes just produce so many difficult policy questions. For examle, in an article about Joe Somebody, you would have to say "...Joe left his hometown of Danzig in 1943... ... ...Then, in 1968, Joe returned to his hometown of Gdansk..." and either leave a bewildered reader or have to explain the history of Gdansk in the middle of an article about Joe. And this is just one example of many.
Maybe the history books are all meticiously careful in their usage, but they only have a small handful of editors. We have thousands. Our policies must lean towards simplicity and clarity or they will not be followed. -- Jwanders 20:01, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Hey look! Pie!
I had to consider your St. Petersburg reference three times before I thought, "Oh! Maybe St. Peterburg was called something else when it was under siege!". I had to look it up to confirm. Until today, I'd been assuming they were completely different cities!
My "one name only" argument was made as a complete outsider. Now that I realise that there are cities whose common-English name changes based on the time period, the argument really falls apart. But, then again, I'm not as much of an outsider anymore, am I? So, I'm going to sleep on it, and if it's not against Wikiquette, might adjust my votes tomorrow. -- Jwanders 22:07, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Changing votes is generally okay, I think - I've changed a couple of my votes. Of course, the issue becomes that there are questions of degree. One would never talk about how the crusaders took Istanbul in 1204, or about the great Battle of Volgograd (that is, Stalingrad). On the other hand, one does, sometimes talk about Gdansk in the 16th-18th centuries, and there are certainly examples (including Space Cadet's example of Encyclopedia Britannica) of simply using Gdansk throughout. I'm voting as I am because I think the balance of usage supports calling it Danzig before 1945 (except maybe for the pre-1308 period, which I'm not really sure about since it's so infrequently discussed), and because it's much simpler to just use Danzig 1308-1945 than to switch up twice in the middle. It's definitely a judgement call, though. john k 00:06, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
In Your opinion this page (organisation at all) is NPOV? No coment! Radomil 11:05, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Explaining the confusion:
Gdansk existed as Slavic city since X century at least. In 1224 it was given new set of privileges, which is referred by Polish historians as "relocating" the city , or "moving to German law" (or Magdeburg law), while Germans usually are calling this date "founding" of Gdansk. However, Germans were living is city before 1224 too, and in 1224 it had not became suddenly German city, the Slavic inhabitants were not expelled/exterminated. The city was under suzerainty of Pomeranian (and therefore, indirectly, Polish) princes. Szopen 07:40, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Danzig/Gdansk before 1308 There were East-Germanic tribes besides Vandals, Burgundians at the Baltic coast between Oder and Vistula river, the Gothic, Gutone, Guddic people for many centuries living and traveling along the Vistula river to the Black Sea and further. The direct neigbors were the Aesti-Prussian Baltic people, specifically the Prussian Vidivarii (Goth-Gepid-Balts). Oldprussian name for Goths-Guddai. The area around the Vistula delta was recorded by Tacitus and others as Germania and by Jordanes as Gothic coast Gothiscandza. The names in the area are reflective of that. The old name for a settlement Gdansk (and others) is a reflection of Gothic presence. Slavic people did come to live and received offices in the empire and European ruling houses are very intermarried.
The only reason the year 997 is prominent, is because of the successfull rejection by the Prussians (and Pomeranian) of one of the many Polish rulers conquest attempts. Poles just dug up the old name(s) and re-use them. They certainly neither founded a city named Gdansk nore Danzig in 997. The most they can say is, that they conquered a settlement around 997.
The emperor then gave the lien to Canute/Knud, a son-in law.
1046 Zemuzil was made Dux Bomeranorum. For the first time in history the name Pomerania was used by the empire, when Zemuzil at the palace of Merseburg came before emperor Henry III and became his vasal.
1120 we find that Boleslaw III of Poland conquered Stettin and Bishop Otto of Bamberg comes in 1124 to christianize. It did not last and in 1128 Otto of Bamberg was sent by the emperor Lothar and all of Pomerania is christianized.
1135 Boleslaw II at the Reichtag -imperial diet at Merseburg becomes vasal of Lothar
1138 Boleslaw II died and Pomerania was again rid of Polish suzerain.
1164 Henry the Lyon grants Pomerania as lien to dukes Kasimir I and Bogislaw I
1181 Emperor Frederick L Barbarossa grants Pomerania as lien to duke Bogislaw
1184 Denmark forces Bogislaw I to recognize Knut VI
1224 Danzig is founded
1227 Battle of Bornhoeved ends Danish conquests in Pomerania
1231 Emperor gives the supreme soverainty (Oberlehnsherrschaft) over Pomerania to margraves of Brandenburg, which in 1236 Wartislaw III recognizes
1250 the margraves of Brandenburg now hold the souverainty over Pomeranian dukes Barnim I and Wartislaw III
1338 at the Reichstag-imperial diet at Frankfurt aM emperor grants Pomerania 'Reichsstandschaft' and Brandenburg inheritance rights. and so on and so on
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This vote has ended. Please do not vote any more. The voting period was 18 February 2005 to 4 March 2005. Comments and discussions should be added to Talk:Gdansk/Vote/discussion. |
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Gdańsk (Danzig) Vote. The following rules apply in the case of disputes:
The detailed vote results and the vote itself can be found on Talk:Gdansk/Vote. This vote has ended; please do not vote anymore. Comments and discussions can be added to Talk:Gdansk/Vote/discussion anytime. This template {{ Gdansk-Vote-Notice}} can be added on the talk page of affected articles if necessary. |
This page is a vote to decide the usage of the name of Gdansk/ Danzig. This is a source of edit wars on dozens of articles mentioning the city on Wikipedia. There is a lengthy discussion on Talk:Gdansk and its archives, listing nearly every argument imaginable. Numerous previous attempts to reach a consensus have been unsuccessful, hence requiring a vote to end dozens of disputes and edit wars. Due to the complexity of the problem, there are six periods to vote for, plus three additional clauses. To avoid further edit wars, an enforcement is also voted on, allowing the revert of edits that violate the guidelines determined by this vote.
There are a total of 10 points to vote on.
The voting Period starts on Friday, February 18 0:00 and ends Friday, March 4 0:00
City document seal of 1224 states: Sigillum Burgensium Dantzike Before 1308: A city in Pomerania, part of Poland. The name used to refer to the city before 1308 should be:
"Danzig (Polish: Gdansk) was founded in 1224/25 as a German city within the Principality of Pommerellen", see short history of Danzig (in English): http://www.z-g-v.de/english/aktuelles/?id=56#danziger
Founding the city? period before 1308
The name used in Wikipedia to refer to the city before 1308 is Gdansk, also subject to the results of votes #7: Biographies and #8: Cross-naming below.
1308: Teutonic Knights: The name used to refer to the city between 1308 and 1454 should be:
The name used in Wikipedia to refer to the city between 1308 to 1454 is Danzig, also subject to the results of votes #7: Biographies and #8: Cross-naming below.
1454: Prussian Confederation: The name used to refer to the city between 1454 to 1466 should be:
The name used in Wikipedia to refer to the city between 1454 to 1466 is Danzig, also subject to the results of votes #7: Biographies and #8: Cross-naming below.
Danzig info also on Talk:Gdansk/Vote/discussion 1466: Second Treaty of Thorn returns the city and Royal Prussia to Polish suzerainty/overlordship. It is de facto a self-governed city republic, mainly with German inhabitants, using the German name Danzig or something similar: The name used to refer to the city between 1466 to 1793 should be:
The name used in Wikipedia to refer to the city between 1466 to 1793 is Danzig, also subject to the results of votes #7: Biographies and #8: Cross-naming below.
1793: Second Partition of Poland. Becomes a part of the Kingdom of Prussia, and again from 1813/ 1815 to 1920. Free City of Danzig from 1807-1813/1815 and again 1920-1939. From 1939 it is reannexed by Germany. The name used to refer to the city between 1794 to 1945 should be:
The name used in Wikipedia to refer to the city between 1793 to 1945 is Danzig, also subject to the results of votes #7: Biographies and #8: Cross-naming below.
1945: Seized by the Soviet Army, given to Poland: The name used to refer to the city after 1945 should be:
The name used in Wikipedia to refer to the city between after 1945 is Gdansk, also subject to the results of votes #7: Biographies and #8: Cross-naming below.
In biographies of clearly German persons, the name should be used in the form Danzig (Gdansk) and later Danzig exclusively. In biographies of clearly Polish persons, the name should be used in the form Gdansk (Danzig) and later Gdansk exclusively. Persons controversial follow the guidelines according to the applicable period as decided above. Similar applies to other place names in the region that shares a history between Poland and Germany.
The proposal is accepted. In biographies of clearly German persons, the first occurrence of the name should be used in the form Danzig (Gdansk) and later Danzig exclusively. In biographies of clearly Polish persons, the first occurrence of the name should be used in the form Gdansk (Danzig) and later Gdansk exclusively. Persons controversial follow the guidelines according to the applicable period as decided above. Similar applies to other place names in the region that shares a history between Poland and Germany.
Notes: This applies to both before and after 1945. Linking to Gdansk would be useful. Minor variations of the text are permissible, i.e. Danzig (now Gdansk) instead of Danzig (Gdansk)
The first reference of one name for Gdansk/Danzig in an article should also include a reference to the other name, e.g. Danzig (now Gdansk, Poland) or Gdansk (Danzig)
The proposal is accepted. The first reference of one name for Gdansk/Danzig in an article should also include a reference to the other name, e.g. Danzig (now Gdansk, Poland) or Gdansk (Danzig). All later occurrences of the name follow the rules for the periods as voted above.
Notes: This applies to both before and after 1945. Linking to Gdansk would be useful. Minor variations of the text are permissible, i.e. Danzig (Gdansk) instead of Danzig (now Gdansk). This rule is to be followed in the case of a dispute, if there is no dispute, deviations from this rule are possible.
The naming of many places in the region that share a history between Germany and Poland are also a source of edit wars. For these places, the first reference of one name should also include a reference to other commonly used names, e.g. Stettin (now Szczecin, Poland) or Szczecin (Stettin). An English language reference that primarily uses this name should be provided on the talk page if a dispute arises.
The proposal is accepted. For locations that share a history between Germany and Poland, the first reference of one name should also include a reference to other commonly used names, e.g. Stettin (now Szczecin, Poland) or Szczecin (Stettin). An English language reference that primarily uses this name should be provided on the talk page if a dispute arises.
Notes: This applies to both before and after 1945. Linking would be useful. Minor variations of the text are permissible, i.e. Stettin (Szczecin) instead of Stettin (now Szczecin). This rule is to be followed in the case of a dispute, if there is no dispute, deviations from this rule are possible.
Violations against the rule established by the outcome of this vote can be reverted as simple vandalism. In more complex edits, only the place names can be reverted as simple vandalism according to the outcome of this vote, additional changes are not considered simple vandalism. The reverted user should receive a note or link of the vote results on this page. Persistent reverts in violation of the outcome of this vote may be dealt with according to the rules in Wikipedia:Dealing with vandalism.
The proposal is accepted. Violations against the rule established by the outcome of this vote can be reverted exempt from the 3RR rule. In more complex edits, only the place names can be reverted exempt from the 3RR rule according to the outcome of this vote, additional changes fall again under the 3RR rule. The reverted user should receive a note or link of the vote results on this page. Persistent reverts in violation of the outcome of this vote despite multiple warnings may be dealt with according to the rules in Wikipedia:Dealing with vandalism.
Note: Many voters disliked the labeling as vandalism. Hence the wording of the vote was modified slightly, still having similar effects but avoiding the label vandalism. In case of problems, assume good faith, don't bite newcomers, and inform the other user about the results of this vote. Reverts to confirm with community consensus are excluded from the 3RR rule. Only persistent reverts against community consensus despite multiple warnings may be dealt with according to the rules in Wikipedia:Dealing with vandalism. This may include blocking users that persistently oppose community consensus as established by this vote.
Dear Wikipedians!
Every article mentioning Danzig must refer to Gdansk for is equally difficult to find Nieuw Amsterdam on popular maps. Mentioning Danzig in post-45 articles is surly as awkward and certainly more irritating for it’s inhabitants than the eventual “New Orleans (Nouvelle-Orléans)” tag in the US city list. IYKWIM!
And let me warn you: omnipresent cross-naming of all secondary towns, then villages, rivers, mountains, caps, islands and lakes according to all the historically and linguistically tenable variations to make justice to all tribes, nations and groups that have once inhabited those places may lead to confusion, insomnia and nervous disorders! -- Mr. Wszedroik Feb 19, 2005
The vote is aimed to resolve a large number of naming disputes. Of course, future votes may override the outcome of this vote. Until then, valid results of this vote are the community consensus, and should be enforced. I think the enforcement is possible even without an extra vote on enforcement, but to be on the safe side, I have added this as a vote topic. Previously, any compromise or majority view was ignored by one party, leading to dozens of revert wars. This vote is there to stop revert wars and to enforce community consensus. -- Chris 73 Talk 02:58, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC)
Seeing as the current vote is 13-16 to use Gdansk for the 1466-1793 period, but almost unanimously to use Danzig both before and after, I thought I'd recopy my argument from Talk:Gdansk at why we should use Danzig:
1) English language sources generally use Danzig when referring to the city at this time. General use textbooks like John Elliott's Europe Divided 1559-1598, Geoffrey Parker's Europe in Crisis 1598-1648, William Doyle's The Old European Order 1660-1800, McKay and Scott's The Rise of the Great Powers 1648-1815, Jeremy Black's The Rise of the European Powers 1679-1793, and so forth, all refer to the city as "Danzig". A JSTOR search shows a limited number of references to the city as "Gdansk" - only 61 articles total mention "Gdansk", and many of those are references to the city since 1945. There are, on the other hand, 552 articles which mention "Danzig", and many of them are discussing the eighteenth century and earlier. [this is a JSTOR search of articles in the 56 journals that are classified as historical. A few of these articles, but not very many, will be from before 1945]
2) This English usage makes sense. The city was primarily a linguistically German city from the early 14th century on. Since 1945 it has been a linguistically Polish city. It makes sense to make the name switch only in 1945, because this corresponds to a major shift in the city that did not occur in 1454 or 1793.
3) These two factors alone should be sufficient to make the case. Now, one might argue perfectly rationally that it would make perfect sense to just call the city "Gdansk" throughout, or to complicatedly switch it depending on whether or not it was under Polish or German sovereignty. But only one usage has the support of common English usage, and that is using "Danzig" for the city for the entire 1308-1945 period. If it was common in English to use "Gdansk" for its whole history, or for its history before 1793, it would make sense for wikipedia to do that as well, whatever its inhabitants may or may not have called it. But that is not how it is done. "Danzig" is the main name used for this period, and Wikipedia should follow that usage. john k 14:34, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I definitely Agree with you Aegis. Furthermore, John Kenney's claims that this is an English speaking internet side should have no impact on how is the city named. In fact, the city is a matter of importance mostly to Poles and Germans and not the Americans. Moreover, as you said in the English-speaking World there is a tendency to favor German speaking "propaganda" simply because it is more accesible or should I say, tangible and also because it's either the German translation, in German or especially written by people of German ancestry. As of 2005, it is of course the largest ancestry in the United States. Another argument is that in fact, Germans are culturally and linguistically closer to the English-speaking nations while Poles, as a Slavic nation is further away in both linguistic and cultural spheres. I believe that part of the modern-day arguments on Gdansk were in fact constructed by German Americans and adjusted to the Anglo-Saxon way of thinking or should I say the anglo-conformity of the Middle America. There is another point that John Kenney is raising, with regards to the pre-1945 Polish name of Szczecin and while he claims that is of little importance as a matter of fact it is in fact not the case because this name was already present in the Polish language since the 16th century and not under its 11th century archaic, Pomeranian spellings. Perhaps John Kenney should know that the towns that were once under a Polish Pommeranian rule before the 12th century and before being germanized actually had Polish names ( although some of them under what is now considered archaic forms ) and yes, that includes also some towns in today's Germany ( Stralsund/Strzałowo, Rostock/Roztoka, Wolgast/Wołogoszcz, Demmin/Dymin, Pasewalk/Pozdawilk, Lebus/Lubusz ) and many smaller towns as well. Those names were not created by any post-1945 propaganda. I understand John Kenney's fascination with everything German but let's face it, even in this article, talking VERY specifically about Gdansk's name, he used the word Gdansk without a ń in it, while in this same article he managed to write Köln with an umlaut. Perhaps it's not significant to some but think again Köln is not part of any linguistic discussion or hardly an "expected" comparison. Also, John Kenney, do not erase my discussion page again as you did on the Tallinn, Estonia page when the issue of the German name was discussed on the 31st of January 2005 and when in fact, Mr. Kenney erased my discussion with no answer or no legitimate argument in favor of his pro-German argument in the discussion section, when I clearly inquired about the name as can be seen in the talk history on this page. [ [2]] VicFromTheBlock 04:55, Mar 02, 2005 (UTC)
Aegis - you seem to be missing the fact that policy on wikipedia is to use the forms most commonly used in English. I'd also add that the fact that the city of Gdansk/Danzig was in Poland in the 18th century and earlier says very little about what we should call it - the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was not a nation-state, and as such, being part of the Kingdom of Poland did not mean that the Polish language had very much to do with the city. As to counting contributions - it is unfair if users from the Polish wikipedia flood the vote here. I would not vote on the Polish wikipedia in a similar instance.
john
k 18:18, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I'll add that the idea that "Szczecin" is the original name of Stettin is absurd. That spelling was never used until 1945. (well, maybe Polish people used it when referring to the city, but that's irrelevant, as it was not part of Poland). john k 18:20, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This is my feeling as well. I would say that the answer to the first question is mostly, but not entirely, Danzig for the 1466-1793 period, and always Danzig for the 1793-1945 period (I don't know enough about medieval historical literature to guess at what its called prior to the 16th century or so). The question of what a modern English-speaking person would look for is, as you say, less clear cut. I do think that this should be less of an issue, because we will of course have redirects, and, presumably, parentheticals, to clarify that the two cities are the same.
Another point: For those of you impressed by the fact that Gdansk/Danzig was under Polish sovereignty from 1466-1793, notice that we don't use this as the basis for how we name cities in other early modern contexts. Most of modern day Belgium and Luxembourg were under Spanish control in the 16th and 17th centuries, and then under Austrian control in the 18th century. We don't refer to their cities by Spanish or German names in those periods. Nor do we use Spanish or German names to refer to Italian cities under Spanish or Austrian rule in the same time period. Of course, many (but not all) of the big cities in these regions have English names of their own, and it is not as though Brussels was emptied of its French and Flemish speaking inhabitants in 1945 and replaced by Spaniards, but the comparison seems adequate enough. john k 14:47, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I agree that this is perfectly fine for most articles. But there remains the question of what to do about the articles Gdansk and History of Gdansk. john k 22:34, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Anonymous user 67.182.169.44 added this to the intro of this vote's section. I moved it here because poll options should not be changed after voting starts. — Charles P. (Mirv) 20:10, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
1466 and 1525 agreements were not authorized nore recognized by the HRE emperors, nore the popes, the supreme overlords.
John, the Low Countries example is nice, but we have also an example of modern towns in the US of A inhabitated mostly by non-English speakers. Following your logic, the WP should honour the local inhabitants and use the local, unofficial name rather than the English name of the places in question. Halibu tt 02:59, Feb 25, 2005 (UTC)
Halibutt: A) Can you name any such town? There are certainly towns in Texas, like Brownsville, that are in areas mostly inhabited by Mexicans, but I have never heard of Spanish names for them. However, I think there is an enormous difference between a modern state and an eighteenth century one. The idea of a national language simply wasn't present in the eighteenth century, certainly not in a state like the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, and the idea that because a city was in that state, it should be called by its Polish name, is a retrospective application of current ideas of the nation-state onto a state that doesn't fit such a pattern. I used the example of the Netherlands because it is from the same period as Danzig/Gdansk under the PLC. On the other hand, Brownsville, Texas, is just not directly comparable (and I have yet to see proof that Chicanos there call it something other than Brownsville, in spite of being 91% Hispanic). Furthermore, this has never been my main point, at any rate. Whether or not the inhabitants of Brownsville call it something in Spanish, the basic fact remains that it is universally called Brownsville in English language sources. The same is not true for Danzig from 1466-1793; most sources call it Danzig, and not Gdansk, although I would love to see a citation of sources that call it Gdansk - there's certainly a few on JSTOR, but not terribly many, and not nearly as many as call it Danzig. john k 06:43, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Interesting. Of course, that example is rather a double-edged sword, no, since it implies that the Danzigers were trying to speak to them in German? At any rate, my point about official languages is such: sure, the PLC conducted its own affairs in Polish or Latin, or what not. But, this does not imply that every city within it must have one of those languages as its official language. Danzig is a notable instance of this, as the municipal government almost certainly did its transactions in German (or Latin, perhaps). While Polish, Latin, and Ruthene may have been the national languages, that doesn't mean that the use of German within Danzig was somehow unofficial, like the use of "Jackowo" in Green Point, Brooklyn. In this period of time, many different linguistic usages can coexist, and claiming that the modern designation of Polish as the official language of Poland is not substantively different from the situation in a very loosely constituted early modern state remains unconvincing. So, at any rate, given that Danzig has not been proved to be a nickname like Jackowo, I think that your argument doesn't work. At any rate, I'm going to go back again to the "English usage" issue, and once again note that English usage is to call it Danzig. Calling it Danzig until 1945 and then switching is also a sensible position, because mass population transfer is substantively different from a simple transfer of sovereignty. john k 16:19, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Several wikipedians have questions about what English users called the Hanse city of Danzig, particularly in the 1466-1793 timeframe. Here is a book, that documents Scotland-Germany trade and immigration to the Prussian Hanse cities of Elbing and Danzig http://www.electricscotland.com/history/germany/commerce.htm
While on most of the poll questions we seem to have vast majorities one way or the other, no matter how it turns out, the question of what to call the city 1466-1793 looks like it will be closely divided. How is this poll to be interepreted? Should it be simply 50%+1 wins? That seems unsatisfactory. (And how do we deal with voters who are, uh, new to the English wikipedia?)
A further question: given that 1308-1466 and 1793-1945 at Danzig look to be pretty set, I'd be interested to see how those of you voting for just the 1466-1793 period to be Gdansk would have this dealt with in the history section of Gdansk. It strikes me that this would be a horribly awkward way to do things, and I feel that there should be some presumption on those of you supporting it to at least make a case for why and how we would do that. (If we had a strong force to simply call it "Gdansk" before 1793, or to call it "Gdansk" throughout, I would not be asking this, as either of these would be a fairly simple solution. But calling it "Gdansk" only from 1466 to 1793 seems like the worst of all possible worlds - we don't use the name which is most commonly used for that period, but we also have to switch mercilessly and confusingly between names in 1466 and 1793. I'll add that this is a problem really only with the Gdansk article itself and the History of Gdansk article. In other articles - especially given the likely-to-be-voted-in-rule about biographies and the use of parentheticals - there is no real problem with calling it whatever one wants whenever one wants.) john k 07:42, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Some inline discussion moved here, from #VOTE:_Cross-Naming_Gdansk.2FDanzig. -- Curps 12:37, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Sca 19:57, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It may be noted, that when English hired craftsmen from Danzig/Gdansk to their first colony in America, they were called as "Pollacks" (at that time it was not derogative it seems) or Polonians. It means that either ethnic Germans considered themselves Poles, or they lived enough Poles in Gdansk to hire them for colony. Szopen 09:38, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It means nothing of the sort. It means that English people called the residents of Danzig/Gdansk Polacks, because they were from Poland. This implies nothing about their ethnic origins or self-identity. At any rate, even if they considered themselves "Polish" (in the sense of being part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) that does not mean that they considered themselves to be "Poles" in the sense of ethnicity or nationality. john k 21:32, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I would say it was a period somewhat to considerably before the modern idea of nationalism was established. But there were certainly ideas of national identity about. The Polish nobility certainly saw itself as Polish in a sense not too far off from modern senses of national identity. Now, the question of what the national identity of the inhabitants of the city under discussion was is interesting, but not really relevant, because the idea of linguistic nationality had not yet been developed. That is, the German-speaking inhabitants of Danzig might very well have considered themselves Polish in some sense, but that doesn't mean that they thought their city ought to be called Gdansk - in the 18th century and earlier, language and ideas of the nation are not yet interrelated in the way they become in the 19th century. So you can perfectly well have quasi-nationalistic Hungarian nobility who can't speak Magyar, and so forth. Of course, ideas of national identity themselves are less established, too, but that's a secondary point, since the basic point is that the national identity question simply isn't important in a discussion of what language the name should be discussed in. If that makes sense. john k 18:28, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Well, if we will look on langauage of majority in cities we can have some paradoxes. According to this idea Paul von Hindenburg was born in Poznań, not Posen, because in 1847 Poles were majority (see Historical population of Poznan). Radomil 21:03, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Is it just me, or were there more votes here before the crash? Everyone should check and make sure their votes are still there. 130.91.46.11 23:15, 22 Feb 2005 (UTC) (sorry, that was me. john k 23:19, 22 Feb 2005 (UTC))
As there seems to be some agreement to my opinion that one name should be used throughout, I figured I'd might as well try to expand on it. First of all, I was only drawn to this page by the notice on Goings On, so although I haven't witnessed any of the original edit wars nor been through any of the discussion they prompted, I do have the advantage of seeing this issue from the point of view of an outsider. To me, it seems that the discussion of when the city was Gdansk and when it was Danzig is a very interesting one, full of valid arguments from both sides, but should not have any impact on how Wikipedia refers to the city. The English Wikipedia is an English encyclopedia, and as such should always use the current, English, names to refer to foreign places. Any discussion of other names and when they were used should be reserved exclusively for the main body of that place's article.
If this seems incorrect, consider inproper nouns: if were talking about apples from France, does it make sense to refer to them as "pommes" instead? Or maybe "apples (pommes)" or "pommes (apples)"? I don't think so, and I don't think there's a difference between that and the case in question. -- Jwanders 14:42, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Ok, I'll grant that the current English for the city is different for different time periods, that using one name throughout would produce inaccuracies. But isn't that the lesser evil when compared to defining a policy around all the name changes? The changes just produce so many difficult policy questions. For examle, in an article about Joe Somebody, you would have to say "...Joe left his hometown of Danzig in 1943... ... ...Then, in 1968, Joe returned to his hometown of Gdansk..." and either leave a bewildered reader or have to explain the history of Gdansk in the middle of an article about Joe. And this is just one example of many.
Maybe the history books are all meticiously careful in their usage, but they only have a small handful of editors. We have thousands. Our policies must lean towards simplicity and clarity or they will not be followed. -- Jwanders 20:01, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Hey look! Pie!
I had to consider your St. Petersburg reference three times before I thought, "Oh! Maybe St. Peterburg was called something else when it was under siege!". I had to look it up to confirm. Until today, I'd been assuming they were completely different cities!
My "one name only" argument was made as a complete outsider. Now that I realise that there are cities whose common-English name changes based on the time period, the argument really falls apart. But, then again, I'm not as much of an outsider anymore, am I? So, I'm going to sleep on it, and if it's not against Wikiquette, might adjust my votes tomorrow. -- Jwanders 22:07, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Changing votes is generally okay, I think - I've changed a couple of my votes. Of course, the issue becomes that there are questions of degree. One would never talk about how the crusaders took Istanbul in 1204, or about the great Battle of Volgograd (that is, Stalingrad). On the other hand, one does, sometimes talk about Gdansk in the 16th-18th centuries, and there are certainly examples (including Space Cadet's example of Encyclopedia Britannica) of simply using Gdansk throughout. I'm voting as I am because I think the balance of usage supports calling it Danzig before 1945 (except maybe for the pre-1308 period, which I'm not really sure about since it's so infrequently discussed), and because it's much simpler to just use Danzig 1308-1945 than to switch up twice in the middle. It's definitely a judgement call, though. john k 00:06, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
In Your opinion this page (organisation at all) is NPOV? No coment! Radomil 11:05, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Explaining the confusion:
Gdansk existed as Slavic city since X century at least. In 1224 it was given new set of privileges, which is referred by Polish historians as "relocating" the city , or "moving to German law" (or Magdeburg law), while Germans usually are calling this date "founding" of Gdansk. However, Germans were living is city before 1224 too, and in 1224 it had not became suddenly German city, the Slavic inhabitants were not expelled/exterminated. The city was under suzerainty of Pomeranian (and therefore, indirectly, Polish) princes. Szopen 07:40, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Danzig/Gdansk before 1308 There were East-Germanic tribes besides Vandals, Burgundians at the Baltic coast between Oder and Vistula river, the Gothic, Gutone, Guddic people for many centuries living and traveling along the Vistula river to the Black Sea and further. The direct neigbors were the Aesti-Prussian Baltic people, specifically the Prussian Vidivarii (Goth-Gepid-Balts). Oldprussian name for Goths-Guddai. The area around the Vistula delta was recorded by Tacitus and others as Germania and by Jordanes as Gothic coast Gothiscandza. The names in the area are reflective of that. The old name for a settlement Gdansk (and others) is a reflection of Gothic presence. Slavic people did come to live and received offices in the empire and European ruling houses are very intermarried.
The only reason the year 997 is prominent, is because of the successfull rejection by the Prussians (and Pomeranian) of one of the many Polish rulers conquest attempts. Poles just dug up the old name(s) and re-use them. They certainly neither founded a city named Gdansk nore Danzig in 997. The most they can say is, that they conquered a settlement around 997.
The emperor then gave the lien to Canute/Knud, a son-in law.
1046 Zemuzil was made Dux Bomeranorum. For the first time in history the name Pomerania was used by the empire, when Zemuzil at the palace of Merseburg came before emperor Henry III and became his vasal.
1120 we find that Boleslaw III of Poland conquered Stettin and Bishop Otto of Bamberg comes in 1124 to christianize. It did not last and in 1128 Otto of Bamberg was sent by the emperor Lothar and all of Pomerania is christianized.
1135 Boleslaw II at the Reichtag -imperial diet at Merseburg becomes vasal of Lothar
1138 Boleslaw II died and Pomerania was again rid of Polish suzerain.
1164 Henry the Lyon grants Pomerania as lien to dukes Kasimir I and Bogislaw I
1181 Emperor Frederick L Barbarossa grants Pomerania as lien to duke Bogislaw
1184 Denmark forces Bogislaw I to recognize Knut VI
1224 Danzig is founded
1227 Battle of Bornhoeved ends Danish conquests in Pomerania
1231 Emperor gives the supreme soverainty (Oberlehnsherrschaft) over Pomerania to margraves of Brandenburg, which in 1236 Wartislaw III recognizes
1250 the margraves of Brandenburg now hold the souverainty over Pomeranian dukes Barnim I and Wartislaw III
1338 at the Reichstag-imperial diet at Frankfurt aM emperor grants Pomerania 'Reichsstandschaft' and Brandenburg inheritance rights. and so on and so on