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The prose for this article is not always clear and concise, and large chunks of this article are left uncited. Therefore, I believe delisting this article should be considered. 777burger user talk contribs 03:31, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
Because people keep starting debates with the voters, I am going to summarise the votes without the explanations in the hope that this will make things readable Tiggy The Terrible ( talk) 10:38, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
the academic literature variously describes it as monotheistic, dualistic or a hybrid of polytheistic and monotheistic elements.Furthermore your argument that expert sources don't exist to support this depends on a particularly narrow view of expert sources that treat the religion solely in historical terms. Simonm223 ( talk) 19:58, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
"The prophet Zoroaster is credited with the founding of the first monotheistic religion in history sometime around the middle of the second millennium BCE..."
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s41412-021-00113-4 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Researcher1988 ( talk • contribs) 01:38, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
The reasons for these edits are too vast to be summarized in the edit summary, since sources seem to be misrepresented (as adressed in recent discussions on this talkpage anyways). So, I want to use the talkpage for transparency reasons.
The claim
"Scholars and theologians have long debated how best to characterise Zoroastrianism theism; dualism and monotheism have historically been the most frequently used terms for the religion."
was supported by "Ferrero, Mario (2021)", Boyd, James W. (1979), and Hintze, Almut (2013) in the following only referred by their publishing dates. (2021) mentions that Zorastrianism has been called "dualistic" and "monotheistic" over time, which is only partly true. The source states
"Schwartz, with regard to the oldest texts of the Zoroastrian tradition, the
Gathas, defines the religion as a “monotheistic dualism”4and Gnoli, who considers dualism to be incompatible with polytheism, as a “dualistic monotheism”5while Panaino considers Mazd¯ aism to be synonymous with monotheism because of Ahura Mazd¯ a’s sovereign role in the religious system.6By contrast, Skjærvø admits both dualism and polytheism but excludes
monotheism.7"
omitting polytheism entirely and gives undie weight to a minor opinion. All the others call it (monotheistic) dualism (note that "dualism" in this context is always monotheistic). The author cited who denotes it as monotheism does so only by pointing add Ahura Mazda as the venerated deity, which is not what "monotheism" means. Overall, the source itself seems improper to decide the classification of the belief-system, since it argues from within a theistic framework, not an external perspective, as seen here:
"the difficulties arises from the fact that the notions of monotheism, polytheism
and dualism are defined not on the basis of Zoroastrianism but on that of other religions, in particular the Judeo–Christian tradition. Denoting the worship of ‘false’ gods in contrast to that of the one God of the Jews and Christians, the term ‘polytheism’ has had negative
connotations from its earliest attestations onwards."
For clarification, "polytheism" is by no means viewed in a negative light, but an academic term (you might agree with or not), except it goes against your own personal beliefs (which do not matter here). The source continues to hang on the idea that "non-monotheism" is a degaratory term (which it is not):
In other words, the emic self-perception of the Judeo-Christian tradition
has provided value-laden parameters for the etic scholarly discourse on monotheism and
polytheism.12 In recent decades the suitability of such a monotheism – polytheism dichotom
Until now, the source appears to be a mere essay without historical value. This, however changes later drastically, and the quality of the source improves. I would like to skip the details (everyone can read it freely online), but point at the conclusion. <blockqote>"Each of the monotheistic,
dualistic and polytheistic features, mentioned at the beginning of this article and which Zoroastrianism presents to the observer, thus represents an essential constituent of the whole system. Taken together, their sum makes a self-contained theology with a remarkable degree of coherence and consistency. Notions of monotheism, dualism and polytheism are so closely intertwined in the Zoroastrian religion that it is difficult, if not impossible to separate them
from each other without causing the whole system to collaps" Here it becomes clear, that the source was not even about the question if it is monotheism or dualism, but how the view on Zorastrianism (including potentially polytheism) has changed over time. Now, it also makes sense that the author referred to the implied negative connotation of "polytheism". This is not the author's own interpretation (which would turn the paper into an essay and would very likely not be accepted for publication in the first place), but an overview of the terminology surrounding Zorastrianism. THe conclusion is that all these terms are a product of Western religious study discourse (not theology!) and none of them are appropriate. Since this source is about the usage of such terms and effectively a criticism on religious sciences and not about depicting Zorastrian cosmology, this can hadrly be used as a source to support Zorastian's qualification of being "monotheistic". (1979) defines its aim in the abstract as follows:
"I. DUALISTIC INTERPRETATIONS 1. The View That Angra Mainyu Is Primordial But Lacks Omnipo- tence And Omniscience (Dhalla, Henning) 2. The View That Angra Mainyu Is Primordial But Lacks A Physical Nature (Shaked, Boyce) II. MONOTHEISTIC INTERPRETATIONS 1. The Created Spirits View (Zaehner, Fox, Gershevitch) 2. The Transformationist (Maskhiyya) View 3. The Zurvinite View 4. The View That Good And Evil Are Coeternal Only In A Logical Sense (Moulton, Bode and Nanavutty, Duchesne-G" (...) "In brief, the interpretation we favor is that Zoroastrianism combines cosmogonic dualism and eschatological monotheism in a manner unique to itself among the major religions of the world. This combination results in a religious outlook which cannot be categorized as either straightforward dualism or "
After extensively elaborating why this cosmology is "dualistic" (including Zorastrian scripture), the paper continues with elaborating on the "monotheistic" view. Here, there is finally mentioning of scholars who proprosed "monotheism" in contrast to "dualism" properly forumalted:
"thodox. This historical judgment is made not only by Zaehner, Gershevitch, and Fox, but also by Rustom Masani, Jacques Duchesne-Guillemin, H. S. Nyberg, and others" (Zaehner, 1961:179; Fox:132; Masani:69; Duchesne- Guillemin
These scholars can be accepted as evidence for a monotheistic proposal throughout history. Their main point is supposed to be that there is a high God above Ahura Mazda who is God, and he created the spirit of good and evil:
"32). Gershevitch also interprets Yasna 44:7 as clearly meaning that Ahura Mazda is the sole creator of everything (13), and Zaehner is confident that Zoroaster proclaimed a doctrine of the creation that was in no way dualistic, but instead thoroughly monotheistic"
It has been, however, also pointed out, that they rely heavily on the Gathas:
"Fox admits as much when he says that "to reach any conclusion" about Zoro- aster's "view we must take widely separated utterances into account. In no single coherent statement does the prophet unambiguously proclaim mono- theism" (132). Moreover, the texts admit of other interpretations. The Yasna reference to "twins" is ambiguous, as is shown by the variety of interpreta- tions being discussed in this paper. It need not be taken to imply a common father, but can imply rather a coeval status of the two principles of good and evil"
It is further pointed out that even those who advocate for a "monotheism" label, are critizized in this paper:
"then we have a kind of ontological dualism lurking behind the monotheism of Zaehner, Gershevitch, and Fox, a dualism which strikes more deeply into the nature of things than monotheism. This would bring us back to a position not all that different from the dualistic views discussed"
The source does mention that the author defended the "monotheistic" interpretation the same way Christianity (usually) does by stating "ty? Fox says that it is because the actualization of evil can be made to serve Ahura Mazda's "ultimate purpose: the creation of free but loyal persons" (137). This answer has some philosophical plausibility and provides some religious satisfaction, but Fox cites no texts", thus the author of the paper makes clear, this is the personal opinion, not what we actually find in Zorastrian beliefs. The next passage, which is the second interpretation in favor of monotheism, can be skipped entirely, because it is said to suffer from the same deficits as the previous one. The third one might be indeed monotheistic (and has been accepted as such by many academics), but is its own separate article ( Zurvanism) and its mythology is also described as "recounted in various non-Zoroastrian sources, is as follows.". Additionally, it is critizized for not qualifying as a religion at all. The fourth monotheistic hypothesis faces several issues as the previous ones again. In the conclusion, while the author makes clear they do not want to make final claims for the sake of not upsetting anyone, there are pretty strong remarks not to be ignored:
"To see why this is so, we can consider each of the four criteria in turn, as it applies to this interpretation. To take first the criterion of historical continuity, it is evident that this interpretation shares with dualism an ability to uphold the continuity of the Zoroastrian religion through time. For it need not posit a sharp break between an alleged monotheism of the early Avestan period and the undisputed dualistic cosmogony of the later Avestan and Sasanian periods. According to this
The paper continues with pointing out how Zorastrianism never managed to leave dualistic cosmology behind, and can only be interpreted as "Monotheistic" in very specific circumstances and by relying on philosophical arguements outside of what we actually have textual evidence for.
2021 sumamrizes how Persian religion moved from polytheism to Dualism. Here, it is critizized that Zorastrian dualism has been kinda frowned upon. However, the issue is not solved (contrarily to what the author inserted claims), by proposing that Zorastrianism is monotheistic, but rather that other "monotheistic" religions are actually dualsitic as well (it is known as mitigated dualism in Religious Studies btw).
Now I want to add that not only are the sources not in support of the claims, but there are good sources supporting the contrary view. According to "Skjærvø, Prods Oktor (2005)" in their "Introduction to Zorastrianism" states "Zoroastrianism is therefore a dualistic and polytheistic religion, but with one supreme god, 1 who is the father of the ordered cosmos"
Given that a basic work such as a simple introduction denotes it as Dualistic (or even polytheistic) while there is no source stating it is monotheistic (except to critize it or being critizized for doing so), there is no reason to call it "monotheistic" and definately no way to speak of "scholarly conensus". VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 00:34, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
Remsense 诉 02:10, 13 April 2024 (UTC)In religion, dualism means the belief in two supreme opposed powers or gods, or sets of divine or demonic beings, that caused the world to exist. It may conveniently be contrasted with monism, which sees the world as consisting of one principle such as mind (spirit) or matter; with monotheism; or with various pluralisms and polytheisms, which see a multiplicity of principles or powers at work. As is indicated below, however, the situation is not always clear and simple, a matter of one or two or many, for there are monotheistic, monistic, and polytheistic religions with dualistic aspects.
@ Researcher1988: with all due respect, your long detailed posts are simply an engagement in original research. This isn't really how Wikipedia discussions should operate. We should present, but not argue from, sources. What needs presenting here is an overview source that has reviewed all the sources you present and come to some sort of conclusion about them. It has to be an independent conclusion: then you just provide it, and assuming it's a quality reliable source, there in neither room nor need for argument.
Because Wikipedia prohibits original research, you are never going to get the majority of editors to agree on taking any position in Wikipedia voice if it requires such argumentation to convince them.
As I see it, the underlying problem is that the article does not have a section on the evolution of academic views on Zoroastrianism. It is extremely difficult at the stage of development of the article to tell whether the religion may or may not have evolved to be more or less monotheistic, or whether academic opinions on the matter are what has changed over time.
My suggestion is that that section needs to be written: a history of Zoroastrian Studies. Then that section can be summarized in the lead. In religion, things are rarely only one thing. The old proverb about the blind men and the elephant comes to mind. Skyerise ( talk) 10:26, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
The stats for the people currently editing this page thus far are against Monotheism as an explanation if Dualism is counted as an objection to it. However; if 'Objection' and 'Support' votes both cancel each other out to become "No consensus" votes, then the true majority vote is to remain neutral on the topic of Monotheism and represent both views equally. I'm sure this will cause another massive debate, but I would prefer it to be down here instead of in the middle of the vote itself. However, I'm hoping the 'Support' side will see this as an olive branch.
Tiggy The Terrible ( talk) 10:33, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
I hope it helps:
Overview of Zoroastrianism:
1-Zoroastrianism believes In one single creator deity who is all-good, omnipotent and omniscient.
2-Zoroastrianism believes that the Evil principle has an origin separate from god; this dualism is cosmological, and thus Zoroastrianism is both Monotheistic and cosmologically dualistic.
3-In Zoroastrianism, material creation is considered holy, and every beneficent and holy creation is Considered “Worthy of worship” or a “Yazata.” thus, while Yazatas are divinities created by God, and should not be considered a “god”, they are considered worthy of worhip or veneration. Even in (Yasna 3) prophet Zoroaster himself is called a Yazata.
Summary of Zoroastrianism studies:
1700
Orientalist Thomas Hyde, concluded that Zoroaster was a strict Monotheist sent by god to repeat the work of Abraham among the ancient Iranians and he supposed that his teachings was misinterpreted by Greeks and other people. This Judeo-Christian interpretation of Zoroastrianism established itself firmly in the academic world for three-quarters of a century.
Mary Boyce – Zoroastrians, Their religious beliefs and practices - Pub: Routledge (december 14, 2000)
1860
Martin Haug, German Philologist suggested that In the Gathas, Zoroaster rejects every divine being other than Ahura Mazda, and the Dualism is merely philosophical and the Amesha Spentas were nothing but Abstract Nouns and Ideas.
Mary Boyce – Zoroastrians, Their religious beliefs and practices - Pub: Routledge; (december 14, 2000)
1912
George Foot Moore, American Historian of Religions, calls Zoroastrianism, the only Monotheistic religion of Indo-European Origin. He believes that in the Gathas, Ahura Mazda has no partner or rival, the Yazatas or Zoroastrian Divinities, are subordinate to Ahura Mazda and believes this is certainly a Monotheistic Doctrine.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/1507426?seq=1
Early 20th
Maneckji Dhalla, a Zoroastrian Theologian and priest, describes Ahura Mazda as, “the Being par excellence. Who sits at the apex among the celestial beings of Heaven. He is not begotten, nor is there one like unto him. Beyond him, apart from him, and without him nothing exists. He is the supreme being through whom everything exists. He knows no elder, he has no equal and There is none to dispute his supremacy and contest his place, Nor is there one to struggle successfully with him for the mastery of the heavens. He is the first and foremost. He is the most perfect being. He is almighty and the absolute sovereign.
Maneckji Nusservanji Dhalla – history of Zoroastrianism
1979
James Boyd, believes that Zoroastrianism combines cosmogonic dualism and eschatological monotheism in a manner unique to itself among the major religions of the world. This combination results in a religious outlook which cannot be categorized as either straightforward dualism or straightforward monotheism. Zoroastrianism proclaims a movement through time from dualism toward monotheism, i.e., a dualism which is being made false by the dynamics of time, and a monotheism which is being made true by those same dynamics of time. The meaning of the eschaton in Zoroastrianism is thus the triumph of monotheism, the good God Ahura Mazdä having at last won his way through to complete and final ascendancy.
https://academic.oup.com/jaar/article-abstract/XLVII/4/557/744081
1995
Prods Oktor skjærvø, claims Zoroastrianism is Dualistic and Polytheistic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Researcher1988 ( talk • contribs) 07:57, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
2011
Erhard Gersenberger, American Theologist and professor of old testament studies, writes that: “In Zoroastrianism Ahura Mazda, the ‘Lord of Wisdom’ is considered a superior, all-encompassing deity, the only existing one, who may be venerated in all other god-manifestations. This certainly is a monotheistic concept."
https://www.academia.edu/27409859/Zoroastrianism_and_the_Bible_Monotheism_by_Coincidence
2012
Almut Hintze, professor of Zoroastrian studies in university of London, writes that: “The rejection and demonisation of the Daivas and their cult in the Avesta has all the features which characterize a monotheistic movement whereby the elevation of one deity, in our case Ahura Mazdā, is concomitant with the rejection of all other gods.”
https://eprints.soas.ac.uk/16952/1/073%202013%20Change%20%26%20Continuity.pdf
2013
Almut Hintze, in another article investigates the Monotheistic, Dualistic and polytheistic features of Zoroastrianism and comes to conclusion that: Zoroastrianism' is 'Monotheistic, but “Zoroastrianism has its own particular form of Monotheism: Monotheism, the Zoroastrian way.
http://journals.cambridge.org/abstract_S1356186313000333
2020
Dorothea Luddeckens, from university of Zurich, in “The Sage Encyclopedia of the Sociology of Religion,” states that: “Zoroastrianism is a global religious tradition whose boundaries and ritual practices are challenged by changes in modern societies. As a religious tradition, Zoroastrianism traces itself back to the ancient Iranian Prophet Zarathushtra and identifies him as the origin of the authoritative Zoroastrian scriptures, liturgies, rituals, beliefs, and ethics. Zoroastrians call their religion Zarathushti Din or Mazdayasna Daena referring to Ahura Mazda (“Wise Lord”) as the creator of the world and their only God. While several kinds of positive spiritual beings, known as Yazatas, “[beings] worthy of worship,” support humanity…”
https://www.academia.edu/42395885/Zoroastrianism
2022
Dr. Shernaz Cama, Honorary Director, UNESCO Parzor Project for the preservation and promotion of Parsi Zoroastrian Culture and Heritage, writes that: “For Zoroastrians, Ahura Mazda is the only one God. All good is comprehended within Him. Division and evil only appeared because of the hostile Spirit Ahriman. Evil is the disruption of the fundamental unity of Asha and because it negates, it destroys. Evil is the antithesis of good but the conflict between the two will end with the triumph of Asha, when evil shall ultimately perish.”
https://www.academia.edu/100018445/The_Dawn_of_History_Zoroastrianism_Ideas_and_Impact
2022
Professor Mario Ferrero, Economist and expert on religious subjects, claims that: “The prophet Zoroaster is credited with the founding of the first monotheistic religion in history sometime around the middle of the second millennium BCE...” Ferrero believes that Zoroastrianism’s Religious dualism will be resolved at the end of the world, and interprets the Yazatas as divinities similar to angels and saints in Judeo-Christianity who are subordinate to godhead.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s41412-021-00113-4 Researcher1988 ( talk) 11:49, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
References
Zarathustra, the monotheistic reformer
Les accusations de dualisme ne sont pas sans fondement mais elles sont sans portée. Le dualisme du fondateur n'est pas de nature religieuse mais philosophique et cette philosophie est imprégnée de morale. Elle fonde une éthique du comportement qui exige le discernement entre le bien et le mal et est soumise à unerétribution posthume.
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: date and year (
link)
The religion whose adherents call themselves "whorshippers of Mazda", the wise God, and which we commonly name after its founder Zoroastrianism, is in many ways of peculiar interest. It is the only Monotheistic religion of Indo-European origin as Judaism is the one independent Semitic Monotheism.
The issue was debated at length by
Almut Hintze. See HINTZE, ALMUT. “Monotheism the Zoroastrian Way.” Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society 24, no. 2 (2014): 225–49.
[1], which also contains a summary of the scholarly controversy. I wouldn't say that the point of that article is that Zoroastrianism' is 'Monotheistic, but “Zoroastrianism has its own particular form of Monotheism: Monotheism, the Zoroastrian way
. An excerpt might be helpful.
Excerpt from Hintze 2014
|
---|
[...] The religion thus seems to involve monotheistic, polytheistic and dualistic features simultaneously. In the ongoing scholarly debate on the classification of Zoroastrianism according to the terms just mentioned views differ according to which of these features is given most prominence, and usually the labels attached to Zoroastrianism combine two features out of a possible three (or four).Footnote 2 For instance, Boyd and Crosby's answer to the question posed in the title of their article “Is Zoroastrianism Dualistic or Monotheistic?, is that the religion starts from a cosmogonic dualism, but over time moves towards an eschatological monotheism.Footnote 3 Schwartz, with regard to the oldest texts of the Zoroastrian tradition, the Gathas, defines the religion as a “monotheistic dualism”Footnote 4 and Gnoli, who considers dualism to be incompatible with polytheism, as a “dualistic monotheism”Footnote 5 while Panaino considers Mazdāism to be synonymous with monotheism because of Ahura Mazdā's sovereign role in the religious system.Footnote 6 By contrast, Skjærvø admits both dualism and polytheism but excludes monotheism.Footnote 7 As far as the Gathas are concerned, Kellens accepts cosmic dualism for the opposition between a a- ‘order’ and druj- ‘deceit’, but not for that between the two mainyus or ‘spirits’ which in his view denote right and wrong human mental forces.Footnote 8 Regarding the terms polytheism and monotheism, Kellens, while emphasizing the pre-eminent role of Ahura Mazdā, comments that the two alternatives are “just as absurd as that of the half-full or half-empty bottle”, and rightly notes the inadequacy of any of these terms on its own.Footnote 9 One of the difficulties arises from the fact that the notions of monotheism, polytheism and dualism are defined not on the basis of Zoroastrianism but on that of other religions, in particular the Judeo–Christian tradition. [...] Having been defined from the scholarly perspective of the Judeo-Christian tradition since the period of the Enlightenment, the two terms came to constitute a dichotomy of mutually exclusive opposites. Consequently “monotheism” was claimed as the label of the Judeo-Christian tradition and endowed with greater prestige than the “polytheism” attributed to some non-Judeo-Christian religions and perceived as both challenging to and in opposition to monotheism. [...] An adequate characterization of Zoroastrianism is obviously not possible by imposing terms the contents of which have been defined on the basis of other religions. Rather than asking whether Zoroastrianism is monotheistic or polytheistic – a question the legitimacy of which has rightly been doubted – in what follows I hope to throw light on and suggest an explanation for the mixture of seemingly monotheistic, polytheistic and dualistic features mentioned above, which Zoroastrianism presents to the observer. [...] Each of the monotheistic, dualistic and polytheistic features, mentioned at the beginning of this article and which Zoroastrianism presents to the observer, thus represents an essential constituent of the whole system. Taken together, their sum makes a self-contained theology with a remarkable degree of coherence and consistency. Notions of monotheism, dualism and polytheism are so closely intertwined in the Zoroastrian religion that it is difficult, if not impossible to separate them from each other without causing the whole system to collapse. |
Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 00:12, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Mary Boyde is a source accepted by @ Researcher1988, but when I try to add a specific quote from her to the page stating that the word "'angel' is commonly substituted for Yazad" in order to " counter Muslim accusations of polytheism" he reverts it, demanding consensus. Therefore I would like to call a vote. Should we be allowed to cherry-pick and quote-mine sources, or must the whole source be used? Tiggy The Terrible ( talk) 08:55, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia does not operate via up or down vote - instead we build consensus by discussion on talk page of sources and of associated Wikipedia policy. This is why the general nomenclature is !vote - which implies a non-vote. I think everybody on this talk page would be wise to remember this. Simonm223 ( talk) 12:05, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 09:42, 16 April 2024 (UTC)Zoroastrianism combines elements of monotheism, dualism and polytheism. According to Almut Hintze, each of these terms provides an incomplete and potentially misleading characterisation of Zoroastrianism, whose main feature is the way these elements are combined into a coherent doctrine
I've been trying to contact researchers who deal with Zoroastrianism directly, and Jenny just got back to me. While I'm still waiting for a hard source I can share, her view is there is no consensus on Zoroastrian monotheism at all. Her exact words being: > "In this regard, there is no consensus among scholars as to how to define the Z religion, particularly as to whether it is ‘monotheistic,’ ‘dualistic,’ ‘henotheistic’ or ‘pantheistic.’ " I think this is very good news, and actually reflects our vote here on the topic. I'm hoping that once she gets back to me, we can finally put this to bed and make the page a lot more neutral. This should help a lot in terms of accuracy of the page, because the sources typically seem to reflect the idea that Zoroastrianism has changed wildly over the centuries. Tiggy The Terrible ( talk) 11:01, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
According to Mary Boyce, one of the people on Reasearcher1988's list of sources, the Islamic Califate is the reason that the Yazad are sometimes called "angels". She has an entire chapter on this in one of her books. However, the specific page is 157. Wherein she says that: "Thus the religious vocabulary of both shows an admixture of Arabic words, witness to the pervasive influence of Arabic on spoken Persian after two and a half centuries of domination. In both communities, the word 'fereshte' or 'angel' is commonly substituted for 'yazad', the result no doubt of trying to counter Muslim accusations of polytheism." I think this makes it very clear that either 1) this author must be stricken from the page, or 2) we must add this information. Otherwise we are engaging in WP:CHERRYPICKING. 16:30, 16 April 2024 (UTC) Tiggy The Terrible ( talk) 16:30, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
@ Skyerise
I provided a text, based on your new added overview and have integrated some paragraphs from the theism subsection in this text too. this text should be added to "Theism" subsection:
Zoroastrianism is often regarded as one of the oldest monotheistic religions in the world. Although Ahura Mazda is the supreme god, and Zoroastrians regard him as the creator of the world and their only God, Zoroastrianism believes in lesser divinities known as Yazatas, who are several kinds of positive spiritual beings that support humanity.” (ref: Ferrero and dorothea ludekens). These yazatas ("good agents") include Anahita, Sraosha, Mithra, Rashnu, and Tishtrya. Richard Foltz has put forth evidence that Iranians of Pre-Islamic era worshipped all these figures, especially Mithra and Anahita. (foltz ref)
In addition to this, Zoroastrianism believes in an evil principle whose origin is separate from God and acts in opposition to Ahura Mazda and his creation. This antagonist who is called “Angra Mainyu” or “the evil spirit” in the Avesta, is the embodiment of evil and his only desire is to bring disorder and destruction to Ahura Mazda’s Perfect world. (ref hintze)
The unique features of Zoroastrianism has caused Scholars and theologians to debate how best to classify Zoroastrianism theism, and according to Almut Hintze, “usually the labels attached to Zoroastrianism combine two features out of a possible three (or four). (ref hintze)
During 18th century, the Orientalist Thomas Hyde, concluded that Zoroaster was a strict Monotheist sent by god to repeat the work of Abraham among the ancient Iranians and he supposed that his teachings was misinterpreted by Greeks and other people. This Judeo-Christian interpretation of Zoroastrianism established itself firmly in the academic world nearly for 75 years. (ref boyce)
During 1860s, Martin Haug, German Philologist suggested that In the Gathas, Zoroaster rejects every divine being other than Ahura Mazda, and the Dualism is merely philosophical and the Amesha Spentas were nothing but Abstract Nouns and Ideas. (ref mary boyce)
The arrival of the German orientalist and philologist Martin Haug led to a rallied defense of the faith through Haug's reinterpretation of the Avesta through Christianized and European orientalist lens. Haug postulated that Zoroastrianism was solely monotheistic with all other divinities reduced to the status of angels while Ahura Mazda became both omnipotent and the source of evil as well as good. Haug's thinking was subsequently disseminated as a Parsi interpretation, thus corroborating Haug's theory, and the idea became so popular that it is now almost universally accepted as doctrine (though being reevaluated in modern Zoroastrianism and academia). (ref)
In 1912, George Foot Moore, American Historian of Religion, calls Zoroastrianism, the only Monotheistic religion of Indo-European Origin. Further, He believes that in the Gathas, Ahura Mazda has no partner or rival, the Yazatas or Zoroastrian Divinities are subordinate to Ahura Mazda and believes this is certainly a Monotheistic Doctrine. (ref foot moore)
Later, Boyd and Crosby suggest: “that Zoroastrianism combines cosmogonic dualism and eschatological monotheism in a manner unique to itself among the major religions of the world. This combination results in a religious outlook which cannot be categorized as either straightforward dualism or straightforward monotheism. Zoroastrianism proclaims a movement through time from dualism toward monotheism, i.e., a dualism which is being made false by the dynamics of time, and a monotheism which is being made true by those same dynamics of time. The meaning of the eschaton in Zoroastrianism is thus the triumph of monotheism, the good God Ahura Mazdä having at last won his way through to complete and final ascendancy.” (ref boyd)
According to the oldest texts of the Zoroastrian tradition, the Gathas, Schwartz defines Zoroastrianism as a Monotheistic Dualism, while Gnoli calls it a dualistic Monotheism; and Panaino, because of Ahura Mazda’s sovereign role in the religious system, considers Mazdaism to be Monotheistic. But Kellens accepts cosmic dualism for the opposition between Asha and Druj, but not for that between the two spirits. (ref Hintze)
Prods Oktor Skjærvø states Zoroastrianism is henotheistic, and "a dualistic and polytheistic religion, but with one supreme god, who is the father of the ordered cosmos". Other scholars state that this is unclear, because historic texts present a conflicting picture, ranging from Zoroastrianism's belief in "one god, two gods, or a best god henotheism.” (ref sk)
Dr Almut Hintze believes that Zoroastrianism has its "own form of monotheism" which combines elements of dualism and polytheism, and calls it Monotheism, the Zoroastrian way. (ref hintze) It has otherwise been opined that Zoroastrianism is totally monotheistic with only dualistic elements. (ref)
Shernaz Cama suggests that the definition of dualism lends credence to the monotheism of the Zoroastrian faith. A basic definition of dualism is “a doctrine that the universe is under the dominion of two opposing principles one of which is good and the other evil.” But Cama contends Zoroastrians believe in the supremacy of Ahura Mazda, for Zoroastrians, Ahura Mazda is the only God.
According to Ferrero, Zoroastrianism’s dualism is an attempt to describe the nature of evil as the product of a separate entity from Ahura Mazda: an entity which will be destroyed at the end of the world, resolving the dualism. In addition to this, He interprets Yazatas as being roughly analogous to angels in Judaism or to the saints within Christianity, pointing out that these holy beings are subordinate to godhead. (insert ref) Researcher1988 ( talk) 16:31, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Isn't the "classification" (formerly "theism") subsection just 80% repeating the same debate mentioned in "Abrahamic religion"? Apart from that the term "Abrahamic religion" also has become subject to sever criticism in academical discourse, though popular in political discourse, this is the same debate on whether or not Zorastrianism is a form of proto-monotheism or not. Is it just me, or should the upper section be integrated into the lower one? An entire section about the debate also seems to be unbalanced given that there is hardly a contest about it being dualistic in real academic discourse. VenusFeuerFalle ([[User talk:VenusFeuerFalle}}|talk]]) 20:06, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
In the 19th century, through contact with Western academics and missionaries, Zoroastrianism experienced a massive theological change that still affects it today. The Rev. John Wilson led various missionary campaigns in India against the Parsi community, disparaging the Parsis for their "dualism" and "polytheism" and as having unnecessary rituals while declaring the Avesta to not be "divinely inspired". This caused mass dismay in the relatively uneducated Parsi community, which blamed its priests and led to some conversions towards Christianity.or should I cut it? Simonm223 ( talk) 12:32, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
As far as I've been able to determine, there is no evidence (or academic consensus) for the idea that Zoroastrianism's ideas resulted in the creation of other religions (such as Islam, etc). The idea seems to be very WP:FRINGE, and most sources I come across say nothing about it. It is also massively controversial, and will be deeply offensive to members of said religions. Especially in light of evidence that those religions likely had a huge influence on Zoroastrianism during the Islamic conquest period (See: Jenny's work), and in the missionary period of the 19th century. I'm not really sure why would we assume the direction of influence based merely on common features, to be honest. Especially since (at the moment) the only two citations supporting it are from 1) an economist with no background I can see in Zoroastrianism, and 2) an Islamic theologian writing about art - who similarly has no background. In the latter case, the essay doesn't even mention most of the beings that the section claims it does. And I couldn't find anything discussing the claims made based on it. It also seems very gratuitous that such a controversial and unsupported section would be in the lead. When I arrived here, this section wasn't even cited - which doesn't bode well for it being a real theory. So I feel I have strong grounds to treat it as dubious. Especially in light of how it will be read. So I think my proposal will be to remove such sections, until it can be shown there is academic consensus for them - or, failing that, some kind of reliable evidence. If evidence can be provided, I suggest they be moved to a special 'controvercy' section with other such claims. Otherwise the claims should be weighed against conflicting information for neutrality. Either way, I don't think such an unverified claim it should be a core statement in the lead. Tiggy The Terrible ( talk) 09:02, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
this part was in the lead for a long time
supported by reliable sources.
Conclusive evidence points to the fact that the iconographic semantics of the medieval Western Asian equestrian dragon-fighter in its heroic as well as saintly incarnation owe much to ancient prototypes that germinated in the syncretistic melting pot of the great Near Eastern religions.
Yet there is no evidence that would establish a direct connection, 7 since in none of the cases does the serpent seem to be a noxious beast nor does the rider seem to battle with the serpent. 8 On the contrary, in Mithraism, which became a widespread religion in the Mediterranean basin, Europe and the Near East, the serpent appears to have been “a symbol of beneficial, life-giving force.”- so, yeah, we have an issue here with selective quotation. Simonm223 ( talk) 12:07, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
may in large part be due to the influence of Zoroastrian and Iranian dualistic conceptions in which the final triumph of good is implicit on the religions of the Near East from the Achaemenid period to the early centuries of the present era.is cited to Boyce and Grenet, 1991, pp. 361–490; Gnoli, “Dualism,” EIr; Hintze, 1999, pp. 72–9, esp. pp. 75–6. Simonm223 ( talk) 12:12, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
The iconographic semantics of the equestrian dragon-fighter – from the greater KhurƗsƗn region to Asia Minor – in its heroic as well as saintly incarnation, thus owe much to ancient prototypes that germinated in the syncretistic melting pot of the great Near Eastern religions. These were probably inspired to a large extent by ancient Iranian dualist notions, and specifically eschatological thought systems, which resulted in close parallels between Iranian and Jewish concepts, inherited, in turn, by Christianity and then Islam.
Because of the introductory nature of this bibliography, one goal has been to be as broad as possible in scope. Because similar ideas can arise independently, some of the parallels between ancient Zoroastrianism and Jewish beliefs and practices are surely accidental. However, it is not the intent of this bibliography to provide original research or to identify which similarities are true instances of Persian influence on Jewish practices and doctrines and which are merely instances of two peoples who shared some cultural and religious traits developing in parallel.Simonm223 ( talk) 12:31, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
Reputable tertiary sources, such as introductory-level university textbooks, almanacs, and encyclopedias, may be cited.so there's nothing wrong with using a tertiary source like a bibliography, and it doesn't look fringe at all, but it also fails verification for supporting the claim it was cited for. Simonm223 ( talk) 12:36, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
I propose that we revert to this version of the article, from before Researcher1988 began to edit it. It is a much more balanced presentation, and a better starting point for improving the article. Skyerise ( talk) 21:57, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
A lot of things have been bugging me about this religion for a while, and I think I've finally finished collating a timeline of events that point towards the true nature of Zoroastrianism and why we're having so much trouble categorising it. Please tell me what you think, but here's what I think happened. A lot of this is directly from this Wiki page:
Tiggy The Terrible ( talk) 16:48, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
I suspect there's two, but the stuff I've found so far allege three. Are there any others?
Tiggy The Terrible ( talk) 10:45, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
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The prose for this article is not always clear and concise, and large chunks of this article are left uncited. Therefore, I believe delisting this article should be considered. 777burger user talk contribs 03:31, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
Because people keep starting debates with the voters, I am going to summarise the votes without the explanations in the hope that this will make things readable Tiggy The Terrible ( talk) 10:38, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
the academic literature variously describes it as monotheistic, dualistic or a hybrid of polytheistic and monotheistic elements.Furthermore your argument that expert sources don't exist to support this depends on a particularly narrow view of expert sources that treat the religion solely in historical terms. Simonm223 ( talk) 19:58, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
"The prophet Zoroaster is credited with the founding of the first monotheistic religion in history sometime around the middle of the second millennium BCE..."
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s41412-021-00113-4 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Researcher1988 ( talk • contribs) 01:38, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
The reasons for these edits are too vast to be summarized in the edit summary, since sources seem to be misrepresented (as adressed in recent discussions on this talkpage anyways). So, I want to use the talkpage for transparency reasons.
The claim
"Scholars and theologians have long debated how best to characterise Zoroastrianism theism; dualism and monotheism have historically been the most frequently used terms for the religion."
was supported by "Ferrero, Mario (2021)", Boyd, James W. (1979), and Hintze, Almut (2013) in the following only referred by their publishing dates. (2021) mentions that Zorastrianism has been called "dualistic" and "monotheistic" over time, which is only partly true. The source states
"Schwartz, with regard to the oldest texts of the Zoroastrian tradition, the
Gathas, defines the religion as a “monotheistic dualism”4and Gnoli, who considers dualism to be incompatible with polytheism, as a “dualistic monotheism”5while Panaino considers Mazd¯ aism to be synonymous with monotheism because of Ahura Mazd¯ a’s sovereign role in the religious system.6By contrast, Skjærvø admits both dualism and polytheism but excludes
monotheism.7"
omitting polytheism entirely and gives undie weight to a minor opinion. All the others call it (monotheistic) dualism (note that "dualism" in this context is always monotheistic). The author cited who denotes it as monotheism does so only by pointing add Ahura Mazda as the venerated deity, which is not what "monotheism" means. Overall, the source itself seems improper to decide the classification of the belief-system, since it argues from within a theistic framework, not an external perspective, as seen here:
"the difficulties arises from the fact that the notions of monotheism, polytheism
and dualism are defined not on the basis of Zoroastrianism but on that of other religions, in particular the Judeo–Christian tradition. Denoting the worship of ‘false’ gods in contrast to that of the one God of the Jews and Christians, the term ‘polytheism’ has had negative
connotations from its earliest attestations onwards."
For clarification, "polytheism" is by no means viewed in a negative light, but an academic term (you might agree with or not), except it goes against your own personal beliefs (which do not matter here). The source continues to hang on the idea that "non-monotheism" is a degaratory term (which it is not):
In other words, the emic self-perception of the Judeo-Christian tradition
has provided value-laden parameters for the etic scholarly discourse on monotheism and
polytheism.12 In recent decades the suitability of such a monotheism – polytheism dichotom
Until now, the source appears to be a mere essay without historical value. This, however changes later drastically, and the quality of the source improves. I would like to skip the details (everyone can read it freely online), but point at the conclusion. <blockqote>"Each of the monotheistic,
dualistic and polytheistic features, mentioned at the beginning of this article and which Zoroastrianism presents to the observer, thus represents an essential constituent of the whole system. Taken together, their sum makes a self-contained theology with a remarkable degree of coherence and consistency. Notions of monotheism, dualism and polytheism are so closely intertwined in the Zoroastrian religion that it is difficult, if not impossible to separate them
from each other without causing the whole system to collaps" Here it becomes clear, that the source was not even about the question if it is monotheism or dualism, but how the view on Zorastrianism (including potentially polytheism) has changed over time. Now, it also makes sense that the author referred to the implied negative connotation of "polytheism". This is not the author's own interpretation (which would turn the paper into an essay and would very likely not be accepted for publication in the first place), but an overview of the terminology surrounding Zorastrianism. THe conclusion is that all these terms are a product of Western religious study discourse (not theology!) and none of them are appropriate. Since this source is about the usage of such terms and effectively a criticism on religious sciences and not about depicting Zorastrian cosmology, this can hadrly be used as a source to support Zorastian's qualification of being "monotheistic". (1979) defines its aim in the abstract as follows:
"I. DUALISTIC INTERPRETATIONS 1. The View That Angra Mainyu Is Primordial But Lacks Omnipo- tence And Omniscience (Dhalla, Henning) 2. The View That Angra Mainyu Is Primordial But Lacks A Physical Nature (Shaked, Boyce) II. MONOTHEISTIC INTERPRETATIONS 1. The Created Spirits View (Zaehner, Fox, Gershevitch) 2. The Transformationist (Maskhiyya) View 3. The Zurvinite View 4. The View That Good And Evil Are Coeternal Only In A Logical Sense (Moulton, Bode and Nanavutty, Duchesne-G" (...) "In brief, the interpretation we favor is that Zoroastrianism combines cosmogonic dualism and eschatological monotheism in a manner unique to itself among the major religions of the world. This combination results in a religious outlook which cannot be categorized as either straightforward dualism or "
After extensively elaborating why this cosmology is "dualistic" (including Zorastrian scripture), the paper continues with elaborating on the "monotheistic" view. Here, there is finally mentioning of scholars who proprosed "monotheism" in contrast to "dualism" properly forumalted:
"thodox. This historical judgment is made not only by Zaehner, Gershevitch, and Fox, but also by Rustom Masani, Jacques Duchesne-Guillemin, H. S. Nyberg, and others" (Zaehner, 1961:179; Fox:132; Masani:69; Duchesne- Guillemin
These scholars can be accepted as evidence for a monotheistic proposal throughout history. Their main point is supposed to be that there is a high God above Ahura Mazda who is God, and he created the spirit of good and evil:
"32). Gershevitch also interprets Yasna 44:7 as clearly meaning that Ahura Mazda is the sole creator of everything (13), and Zaehner is confident that Zoroaster proclaimed a doctrine of the creation that was in no way dualistic, but instead thoroughly monotheistic"
It has been, however, also pointed out, that they rely heavily on the Gathas:
"Fox admits as much when he says that "to reach any conclusion" about Zoro- aster's "view we must take widely separated utterances into account. In no single coherent statement does the prophet unambiguously proclaim mono- theism" (132). Moreover, the texts admit of other interpretations. The Yasna reference to "twins" is ambiguous, as is shown by the variety of interpreta- tions being discussed in this paper. It need not be taken to imply a common father, but can imply rather a coeval status of the two principles of good and evil"
It is further pointed out that even those who advocate for a "monotheism" label, are critizized in this paper:
"then we have a kind of ontological dualism lurking behind the monotheism of Zaehner, Gershevitch, and Fox, a dualism which strikes more deeply into the nature of things than monotheism. This would bring us back to a position not all that different from the dualistic views discussed"
The source does mention that the author defended the "monotheistic" interpretation the same way Christianity (usually) does by stating "ty? Fox says that it is because the actualization of evil can be made to serve Ahura Mazda's "ultimate purpose: the creation of free but loyal persons" (137). This answer has some philosophical plausibility and provides some religious satisfaction, but Fox cites no texts", thus the author of the paper makes clear, this is the personal opinion, not what we actually find in Zorastrian beliefs. The next passage, which is the second interpretation in favor of monotheism, can be skipped entirely, because it is said to suffer from the same deficits as the previous one. The third one might be indeed monotheistic (and has been accepted as such by many academics), but is its own separate article ( Zurvanism) and its mythology is also described as "recounted in various non-Zoroastrian sources, is as follows.". Additionally, it is critizized for not qualifying as a religion at all. The fourth monotheistic hypothesis faces several issues as the previous ones again. In the conclusion, while the author makes clear they do not want to make final claims for the sake of not upsetting anyone, there are pretty strong remarks not to be ignored:
"To see why this is so, we can consider each of the four criteria in turn, as it applies to this interpretation. To take first the criterion of historical continuity, it is evident that this interpretation shares with dualism an ability to uphold the continuity of the Zoroastrian religion through time. For it need not posit a sharp break between an alleged monotheism of the early Avestan period and the undisputed dualistic cosmogony of the later Avestan and Sasanian periods. According to this
The paper continues with pointing out how Zorastrianism never managed to leave dualistic cosmology behind, and can only be interpreted as "Monotheistic" in very specific circumstances and by relying on philosophical arguements outside of what we actually have textual evidence for.
2021 sumamrizes how Persian religion moved from polytheism to Dualism. Here, it is critizized that Zorastrian dualism has been kinda frowned upon. However, the issue is not solved (contrarily to what the author inserted claims), by proposing that Zorastrianism is monotheistic, but rather that other "monotheistic" religions are actually dualsitic as well (it is known as mitigated dualism in Religious Studies btw).
Now I want to add that not only are the sources not in support of the claims, but there are good sources supporting the contrary view. According to "Skjærvø, Prods Oktor (2005)" in their "Introduction to Zorastrianism" states "Zoroastrianism is therefore a dualistic and polytheistic religion, but with one supreme god, 1 who is the father of the ordered cosmos"
Given that a basic work such as a simple introduction denotes it as Dualistic (or even polytheistic) while there is no source stating it is monotheistic (except to critize it or being critizized for doing so), there is no reason to call it "monotheistic" and definately no way to speak of "scholarly conensus". VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 00:34, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
Remsense 诉 02:10, 13 April 2024 (UTC)In religion, dualism means the belief in two supreme opposed powers or gods, or sets of divine or demonic beings, that caused the world to exist. It may conveniently be contrasted with monism, which sees the world as consisting of one principle such as mind (spirit) or matter; with monotheism; or with various pluralisms and polytheisms, which see a multiplicity of principles or powers at work. As is indicated below, however, the situation is not always clear and simple, a matter of one or two or many, for there are monotheistic, monistic, and polytheistic religions with dualistic aspects.
@ Researcher1988: with all due respect, your long detailed posts are simply an engagement in original research. This isn't really how Wikipedia discussions should operate. We should present, but not argue from, sources. What needs presenting here is an overview source that has reviewed all the sources you present and come to some sort of conclusion about them. It has to be an independent conclusion: then you just provide it, and assuming it's a quality reliable source, there in neither room nor need for argument.
Because Wikipedia prohibits original research, you are never going to get the majority of editors to agree on taking any position in Wikipedia voice if it requires such argumentation to convince them.
As I see it, the underlying problem is that the article does not have a section on the evolution of academic views on Zoroastrianism. It is extremely difficult at the stage of development of the article to tell whether the religion may or may not have evolved to be more or less monotheistic, or whether academic opinions on the matter are what has changed over time.
My suggestion is that that section needs to be written: a history of Zoroastrian Studies. Then that section can be summarized in the lead. In religion, things are rarely only one thing. The old proverb about the blind men and the elephant comes to mind. Skyerise ( talk) 10:26, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
The stats for the people currently editing this page thus far are against Monotheism as an explanation if Dualism is counted as an objection to it. However; if 'Objection' and 'Support' votes both cancel each other out to become "No consensus" votes, then the true majority vote is to remain neutral on the topic of Monotheism and represent both views equally. I'm sure this will cause another massive debate, but I would prefer it to be down here instead of in the middle of the vote itself. However, I'm hoping the 'Support' side will see this as an olive branch.
Tiggy The Terrible ( talk) 10:33, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
I hope it helps:
Overview of Zoroastrianism:
1-Zoroastrianism believes In one single creator deity who is all-good, omnipotent and omniscient.
2-Zoroastrianism believes that the Evil principle has an origin separate from god; this dualism is cosmological, and thus Zoroastrianism is both Monotheistic and cosmologically dualistic.
3-In Zoroastrianism, material creation is considered holy, and every beneficent and holy creation is Considered “Worthy of worship” or a “Yazata.” thus, while Yazatas are divinities created by God, and should not be considered a “god”, they are considered worthy of worhip or veneration. Even in (Yasna 3) prophet Zoroaster himself is called a Yazata.
Summary of Zoroastrianism studies:
1700
Orientalist Thomas Hyde, concluded that Zoroaster was a strict Monotheist sent by god to repeat the work of Abraham among the ancient Iranians and he supposed that his teachings was misinterpreted by Greeks and other people. This Judeo-Christian interpretation of Zoroastrianism established itself firmly in the academic world for three-quarters of a century.
Mary Boyce – Zoroastrians, Their religious beliefs and practices - Pub: Routledge (december 14, 2000)
1860
Martin Haug, German Philologist suggested that In the Gathas, Zoroaster rejects every divine being other than Ahura Mazda, and the Dualism is merely philosophical and the Amesha Spentas were nothing but Abstract Nouns and Ideas.
Mary Boyce – Zoroastrians, Their religious beliefs and practices - Pub: Routledge; (december 14, 2000)
1912
George Foot Moore, American Historian of Religions, calls Zoroastrianism, the only Monotheistic religion of Indo-European Origin. He believes that in the Gathas, Ahura Mazda has no partner or rival, the Yazatas or Zoroastrian Divinities, are subordinate to Ahura Mazda and believes this is certainly a Monotheistic Doctrine.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/1507426?seq=1
Early 20th
Maneckji Dhalla, a Zoroastrian Theologian and priest, describes Ahura Mazda as, “the Being par excellence. Who sits at the apex among the celestial beings of Heaven. He is not begotten, nor is there one like unto him. Beyond him, apart from him, and without him nothing exists. He is the supreme being through whom everything exists. He knows no elder, he has no equal and There is none to dispute his supremacy and contest his place, Nor is there one to struggle successfully with him for the mastery of the heavens. He is the first and foremost. He is the most perfect being. He is almighty and the absolute sovereign.
Maneckji Nusservanji Dhalla – history of Zoroastrianism
1979
James Boyd, believes that Zoroastrianism combines cosmogonic dualism and eschatological monotheism in a manner unique to itself among the major religions of the world. This combination results in a religious outlook which cannot be categorized as either straightforward dualism or straightforward monotheism. Zoroastrianism proclaims a movement through time from dualism toward monotheism, i.e., a dualism which is being made false by the dynamics of time, and a monotheism which is being made true by those same dynamics of time. The meaning of the eschaton in Zoroastrianism is thus the triumph of monotheism, the good God Ahura Mazdä having at last won his way through to complete and final ascendancy.
https://academic.oup.com/jaar/article-abstract/XLVII/4/557/744081
1995
Prods Oktor skjærvø, claims Zoroastrianism is Dualistic and Polytheistic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Researcher1988 ( talk • contribs) 07:57, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
2011
Erhard Gersenberger, American Theologist and professor of old testament studies, writes that: “In Zoroastrianism Ahura Mazda, the ‘Lord of Wisdom’ is considered a superior, all-encompassing deity, the only existing one, who may be venerated in all other god-manifestations. This certainly is a monotheistic concept."
https://www.academia.edu/27409859/Zoroastrianism_and_the_Bible_Monotheism_by_Coincidence
2012
Almut Hintze, professor of Zoroastrian studies in university of London, writes that: “The rejection and demonisation of the Daivas and their cult in the Avesta has all the features which characterize a monotheistic movement whereby the elevation of one deity, in our case Ahura Mazdā, is concomitant with the rejection of all other gods.”
https://eprints.soas.ac.uk/16952/1/073%202013%20Change%20%26%20Continuity.pdf
2013
Almut Hintze, in another article investigates the Monotheistic, Dualistic and polytheistic features of Zoroastrianism and comes to conclusion that: Zoroastrianism' is 'Monotheistic, but “Zoroastrianism has its own particular form of Monotheism: Monotheism, the Zoroastrian way.
http://journals.cambridge.org/abstract_S1356186313000333
2020
Dorothea Luddeckens, from university of Zurich, in “The Sage Encyclopedia of the Sociology of Religion,” states that: “Zoroastrianism is a global religious tradition whose boundaries and ritual practices are challenged by changes in modern societies. As a religious tradition, Zoroastrianism traces itself back to the ancient Iranian Prophet Zarathushtra and identifies him as the origin of the authoritative Zoroastrian scriptures, liturgies, rituals, beliefs, and ethics. Zoroastrians call their religion Zarathushti Din or Mazdayasna Daena referring to Ahura Mazda (“Wise Lord”) as the creator of the world and their only God. While several kinds of positive spiritual beings, known as Yazatas, “[beings] worthy of worship,” support humanity…”
https://www.academia.edu/42395885/Zoroastrianism
2022
Dr. Shernaz Cama, Honorary Director, UNESCO Parzor Project for the preservation and promotion of Parsi Zoroastrian Culture and Heritage, writes that: “For Zoroastrians, Ahura Mazda is the only one God. All good is comprehended within Him. Division and evil only appeared because of the hostile Spirit Ahriman. Evil is the disruption of the fundamental unity of Asha and because it negates, it destroys. Evil is the antithesis of good but the conflict between the two will end with the triumph of Asha, when evil shall ultimately perish.”
https://www.academia.edu/100018445/The_Dawn_of_History_Zoroastrianism_Ideas_and_Impact
2022
Professor Mario Ferrero, Economist and expert on religious subjects, claims that: “The prophet Zoroaster is credited with the founding of the first monotheistic religion in history sometime around the middle of the second millennium BCE...” Ferrero believes that Zoroastrianism’s Religious dualism will be resolved at the end of the world, and interprets the Yazatas as divinities similar to angels and saints in Judeo-Christianity who are subordinate to godhead.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s41412-021-00113-4 Researcher1988 ( talk) 11:49, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
References
Zarathustra, the monotheistic reformer
Les accusations de dualisme ne sont pas sans fondement mais elles sont sans portée. Le dualisme du fondateur n'est pas de nature religieuse mais philosophique et cette philosophie est imprégnée de morale. Elle fonde une éthique du comportement qui exige le discernement entre le bien et le mal et est soumise à unerétribution posthume.
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: date and year (
link)
The religion whose adherents call themselves "whorshippers of Mazda", the wise God, and which we commonly name after its founder Zoroastrianism, is in many ways of peculiar interest. It is the only Monotheistic religion of Indo-European origin as Judaism is the one independent Semitic Monotheism.
The issue was debated at length by
Almut Hintze. See HINTZE, ALMUT. “Monotheism the Zoroastrian Way.” Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society 24, no. 2 (2014): 225–49.
[1], which also contains a summary of the scholarly controversy. I wouldn't say that the point of that article is that Zoroastrianism' is 'Monotheistic, but “Zoroastrianism has its own particular form of Monotheism: Monotheism, the Zoroastrian way
. An excerpt might be helpful.
Excerpt from Hintze 2014
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[...] The religion thus seems to involve monotheistic, polytheistic and dualistic features simultaneously. In the ongoing scholarly debate on the classification of Zoroastrianism according to the terms just mentioned views differ according to which of these features is given most prominence, and usually the labels attached to Zoroastrianism combine two features out of a possible three (or four).Footnote 2 For instance, Boyd and Crosby's answer to the question posed in the title of their article “Is Zoroastrianism Dualistic or Monotheistic?, is that the religion starts from a cosmogonic dualism, but over time moves towards an eschatological monotheism.Footnote 3 Schwartz, with regard to the oldest texts of the Zoroastrian tradition, the Gathas, defines the religion as a “monotheistic dualism”Footnote 4 and Gnoli, who considers dualism to be incompatible with polytheism, as a “dualistic monotheism”Footnote 5 while Panaino considers Mazdāism to be synonymous with monotheism because of Ahura Mazdā's sovereign role in the religious system.Footnote 6 By contrast, Skjærvø admits both dualism and polytheism but excludes monotheism.Footnote 7 As far as the Gathas are concerned, Kellens accepts cosmic dualism for the opposition between a a- ‘order’ and druj- ‘deceit’, but not for that between the two mainyus or ‘spirits’ which in his view denote right and wrong human mental forces.Footnote 8 Regarding the terms polytheism and monotheism, Kellens, while emphasizing the pre-eminent role of Ahura Mazdā, comments that the two alternatives are “just as absurd as that of the half-full or half-empty bottle”, and rightly notes the inadequacy of any of these terms on its own.Footnote 9 One of the difficulties arises from the fact that the notions of monotheism, polytheism and dualism are defined not on the basis of Zoroastrianism but on that of other religions, in particular the Judeo–Christian tradition. [...] Having been defined from the scholarly perspective of the Judeo-Christian tradition since the period of the Enlightenment, the two terms came to constitute a dichotomy of mutually exclusive opposites. Consequently “monotheism” was claimed as the label of the Judeo-Christian tradition and endowed with greater prestige than the “polytheism” attributed to some non-Judeo-Christian religions and perceived as both challenging to and in opposition to monotheism. [...] An adequate characterization of Zoroastrianism is obviously not possible by imposing terms the contents of which have been defined on the basis of other religions. Rather than asking whether Zoroastrianism is monotheistic or polytheistic – a question the legitimacy of which has rightly been doubted – in what follows I hope to throw light on and suggest an explanation for the mixture of seemingly monotheistic, polytheistic and dualistic features mentioned above, which Zoroastrianism presents to the observer. [...] Each of the monotheistic, dualistic and polytheistic features, mentioned at the beginning of this article and which Zoroastrianism presents to the observer, thus represents an essential constituent of the whole system. Taken together, their sum makes a self-contained theology with a remarkable degree of coherence and consistency. Notions of monotheism, dualism and polytheism are so closely intertwined in the Zoroastrian religion that it is difficult, if not impossible to separate them from each other without causing the whole system to collapse. |
Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 00:12, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Mary Boyde is a source accepted by @ Researcher1988, but when I try to add a specific quote from her to the page stating that the word "'angel' is commonly substituted for Yazad" in order to " counter Muslim accusations of polytheism" he reverts it, demanding consensus. Therefore I would like to call a vote. Should we be allowed to cherry-pick and quote-mine sources, or must the whole source be used? Tiggy The Terrible ( talk) 08:55, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia does not operate via up or down vote - instead we build consensus by discussion on talk page of sources and of associated Wikipedia policy. This is why the general nomenclature is !vote - which implies a non-vote. I think everybody on this talk page would be wise to remember this. Simonm223 ( talk) 12:05, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 09:42, 16 April 2024 (UTC)Zoroastrianism combines elements of monotheism, dualism and polytheism. According to Almut Hintze, each of these terms provides an incomplete and potentially misleading characterisation of Zoroastrianism, whose main feature is the way these elements are combined into a coherent doctrine
I've been trying to contact researchers who deal with Zoroastrianism directly, and Jenny just got back to me. While I'm still waiting for a hard source I can share, her view is there is no consensus on Zoroastrian monotheism at all. Her exact words being: > "In this regard, there is no consensus among scholars as to how to define the Z religion, particularly as to whether it is ‘monotheistic,’ ‘dualistic,’ ‘henotheistic’ or ‘pantheistic.’ " I think this is very good news, and actually reflects our vote here on the topic. I'm hoping that once she gets back to me, we can finally put this to bed and make the page a lot more neutral. This should help a lot in terms of accuracy of the page, because the sources typically seem to reflect the idea that Zoroastrianism has changed wildly over the centuries. Tiggy The Terrible ( talk) 11:01, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
According to Mary Boyce, one of the people on Reasearcher1988's list of sources, the Islamic Califate is the reason that the Yazad are sometimes called "angels". She has an entire chapter on this in one of her books. However, the specific page is 157. Wherein she says that: "Thus the religious vocabulary of both shows an admixture of Arabic words, witness to the pervasive influence of Arabic on spoken Persian after two and a half centuries of domination. In both communities, the word 'fereshte' or 'angel' is commonly substituted for 'yazad', the result no doubt of trying to counter Muslim accusations of polytheism." I think this makes it very clear that either 1) this author must be stricken from the page, or 2) we must add this information. Otherwise we are engaging in WP:CHERRYPICKING. 16:30, 16 April 2024 (UTC) Tiggy The Terrible ( talk) 16:30, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
@ Skyerise
I provided a text, based on your new added overview and have integrated some paragraphs from the theism subsection in this text too. this text should be added to "Theism" subsection:
Zoroastrianism is often regarded as one of the oldest monotheistic religions in the world. Although Ahura Mazda is the supreme god, and Zoroastrians regard him as the creator of the world and their only God, Zoroastrianism believes in lesser divinities known as Yazatas, who are several kinds of positive spiritual beings that support humanity.” (ref: Ferrero and dorothea ludekens). These yazatas ("good agents") include Anahita, Sraosha, Mithra, Rashnu, and Tishtrya. Richard Foltz has put forth evidence that Iranians of Pre-Islamic era worshipped all these figures, especially Mithra and Anahita. (foltz ref)
In addition to this, Zoroastrianism believes in an evil principle whose origin is separate from God and acts in opposition to Ahura Mazda and his creation. This antagonist who is called “Angra Mainyu” or “the evil spirit” in the Avesta, is the embodiment of evil and his only desire is to bring disorder and destruction to Ahura Mazda’s Perfect world. (ref hintze)
The unique features of Zoroastrianism has caused Scholars and theologians to debate how best to classify Zoroastrianism theism, and according to Almut Hintze, “usually the labels attached to Zoroastrianism combine two features out of a possible three (or four). (ref hintze)
During 18th century, the Orientalist Thomas Hyde, concluded that Zoroaster was a strict Monotheist sent by god to repeat the work of Abraham among the ancient Iranians and he supposed that his teachings was misinterpreted by Greeks and other people. This Judeo-Christian interpretation of Zoroastrianism established itself firmly in the academic world nearly for 75 years. (ref boyce)
During 1860s, Martin Haug, German Philologist suggested that In the Gathas, Zoroaster rejects every divine being other than Ahura Mazda, and the Dualism is merely philosophical and the Amesha Spentas were nothing but Abstract Nouns and Ideas. (ref mary boyce)
The arrival of the German orientalist and philologist Martin Haug led to a rallied defense of the faith through Haug's reinterpretation of the Avesta through Christianized and European orientalist lens. Haug postulated that Zoroastrianism was solely monotheistic with all other divinities reduced to the status of angels while Ahura Mazda became both omnipotent and the source of evil as well as good. Haug's thinking was subsequently disseminated as a Parsi interpretation, thus corroborating Haug's theory, and the idea became so popular that it is now almost universally accepted as doctrine (though being reevaluated in modern Zoroastrianism and academia). (ref)
In 1912, George Foot Moore, American Historian of Religion, calls Zoroastrianism, the only Monotheistic religion of Indo-European Origin. Further, He believes that in the Gathas, Ahura Mazda has no partner or rival, the Yazatas or Zoroastrian Divinities are subordinate to Ahura Mazda and believes this is certainly a Monotheistic Doctrine. (ref foot moore)
Later, Boyd and Crosby suggest: “that Zoroastrianism combines cosmogonic dualism and eschatological monotheism in a manner unique to itself among the major religions of the world. This combination results in a religious outlook which cannot be categorized as either straightforward dualism or straightforward monotheism. Zoroastrianism proclaims a movement through time from dualism toward monotheism, i.e., a dualism which is being made false by the dynamics of time, and a monotheism which is being made true by those same dynamics of time. The meaning of the eschaton in Zoroastrianism is thus the triumph of monotheism, the good God Ahura Mazdä having at last won his way through to complete and final ascendancy.” (ref boyd)
According to the oldest texts of the Zoroastrian tradition, the Gathas, Schwartz defines Zoroastrianism as a Monotheistic Dualism, while Gnoli calls it a dualistic Monotheism; and Panaino, because of Ahura Mazda’s sovereign role in the religious system, considers Mazdaism to be Monotheistic. But Kellens accepts cosmic dualism for the opposition between Asha and Druj, but not for that between the two spirits. (ref Hintze)
Prods Oktor Skjærvø states Zoroastrianism is henotheistic, and "a dualistic and polytheistic religion, but with one supreme god, who is the father of the ordered cosmos". Other scholars state that this is unclear, because historic texts present a conflicting picture, ranging from Zoroastrianism's belief in "one god, two gods, or a best god henotheism.” (ref sk)
Dr Almut Hintze believes that Zoroastrianism has its "own form of monotheism" which combines elements of dualism and polytheism, and calls it Monotheism, the Zoroastrian way. (ref hintze) It has otherwise been opined that Zoroastrianism is totally monotheistic with only dualistic elements. (ref)
Shernaz Cama suggests that the definition of dualism lends credence to the monotheism of the Zoroastrian faith. A basic definition of dualism is “a doctrine that the universe is under the dominion of two opposing principles one of which is good and the other evil.” But Cama contends Zoroastrians believe in the supremacy of Ahura Mazda, for Zoroastrians, Ahura Mazda is the only God.
According to Ferrero, Zoroastrianism’s dualism is an attempt to describe the nature of evil as the product of a separate entity from Ahura Mazda: an entity which will be destroyed at the end of the world, resolving the dualism. In addition to this, He interprets Yazatas as being roughly analogous to angels in Judaism or to the saints within Christianity, pointing out that these holy beings are subordinate to godhead. (insert ref) Researcher1988 ( talk) 16:31, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Isn't the "classification" (formerly "theism") subsection just 80% repeating the same debate mentioned in "Abrahamic religion"? Apart from that the term "Abrahamic religion" also has become subject to sever criticism in academical discourse, though popular in political discourse, this is the same debate on whether or not Zorastrianism is a form of proto-monotheism or not. Is it just me, or should the upper section be integrated into the lower one? An entire section about the debate also seems to be unbalanced given that there is hardly a contest about it being dualistic in real academic discourse. VenusFeuerFalle ([[User talk:VenusFeuerFalle}}|talk]]) 20:06, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
In the 19th century, through contact with Western academics and missionaries, Zoroastrianism experienced a massive theological change that still affects it today. The Rev. John Wilson led various missionary campaigns in India against the Parsi community, disparaging the Parsis for their "dualism" and "polytheism" and as having unnecessary rituals while declaring the Avesta to not be "divinely inspired". This caused mass dismay in the relatively uneducated Parsi community, which blamed its priests and led to some conversions towards Christianity.or should I cut it? Simonm223 ( talk) 12:32, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
As far as I've been able to determine, there is no evidence (or academic consensus) for the idea that Zoroastrianism's ideas resulted in the creation of other religions (such as Islam, etc). The idea seems to be very WP:FRINGE, and most sources I come across say nothing about it. It is also massively controversial, and will be deeply offensive to members of said religions. Especially in light of evidence that those religions likely had a huge influence on Zoroastrianism during the Islamic conquest period (See: Jenny's work), and in the missionary period of the 19th century. I'm not really sure why would we assume the direction of influence based merely on common features, to be honest. Especially since (at the moment) the only two citations supporting it are from 1) an economist with no background I can see in Zoroastrianism, and 2) an Islamic theologian writing about art - who similarly has no background. In the latter case, the essay doesn't even mention most of the beings that the section claims it does. And I couldn't find anything discussing the claims made based on it. It also seems very gratuitous that such a controversial and unsupported section would be in the lead. When I arrived here, this section wasn't even cited - which doesn't bode well for it being a real theory. So I feel I have strong grounds to treat it as dubious. Especially in light of how it will be read. So I think my proposal will be to remove such sections, until it can be shown there is academic consensus for them - or, failing that, some kind of reliable evidence. If evidence can be provided, I suggest they be moved to a special 'controvercy' section with other such claims. Otherwise the claims should be weighed against conflicting information for neutrality. Either way, I don't think such an unverified claim it should be a core statement in the lead. Tiggy The Terrible ( talk) 09:02, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
this part was in the lead for a long time
supported by reliable sources.
Conclusive evidence points to the fact that the iconographic semantics of the medieval Western Asian equestrian dragon-fighter in its heroic as well as saintly incarnation owe much to ancient prototypes that germinated in the syncretistic melting pot of the great Near Eastern religions.
Yet there is no evidence that would establish a direct connection, 7 since in none of the cases does the serpent seem to be a noxious beast nor does the rider seem to battle with the serpent. 8 On the contrary, in Mithraism, which became a widespread religion in the Mediterranean basin, Europe and the Near East, the serpent appears to have been “a symbol of beneficial, life-giving force.”- so, yeah, we have an issue here with selective quotation. Simonm223 ( talk) 12:07, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
may in large part be due to the influence of Zoroastrian and Iranian dualistic conceptions in which the final triumph of good is implicit on the religions of the Near East from the Achaemenid period to the early centuries of the present era.is cited to Boyce and Grenet, 1991, pp. 361–490; Gnoli, “Dualism,” EIr; Hintze, 1999, pp. 72–9, esp. pp. 75–6. Simonm223 ( talk) 12:12, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
The iconographic semantics of the equestrian dragon-fighter – from the greater KhurƗsƗn region to Asia Minor – in its heroic as well as saintly incarnation, thus owe much to ancient prototypes that germinated in the syncretistic melting pot of the great Near Eastern religions. These were probably inspired to a large extent by ancient Iranian dualist notions, and specifically eschatological thought systems, which resulted in close parallels between Iranian and Jewish concepts, inherited, in turn, by Christianity and then Islam.
Because of the introductory nature of this bibliography, one goal has been to be as broad as possible in scope. Because similar ideas can arise independently, some of the parallels between ancient Zoroastrianism and Jewish beliefs and practices are surely accidental. However, it is not the intent of this bibliography to provide original research or to identify which similarities are true instances of Persian influence on Jewish practices and doctrines and which are merely instances of two peoples who shared some cultural and religious traits developing in parallel.Simonm223 ( talk) 12:31, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
Reputable tertiary sources, such as introductory-level university textbooks, almanacs, and encyclopedias, may be cited.so there's nothing wrong with using a tertiary source like a bibliography, and it doesn't look fringe at all, but it also fails verification for supporting the claim it was cited for. Simonm223 ( talk) 12:36, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
I propose that we revert to this version of the article, from before Researcher1988 began to edit it. It is a much more balanced presentation, and a better starting point for improving the article. Skyerise ( talk) 21:57, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
A lot of things have been bugging me about this religion for a while, and I think I've finally finished collating a timeline of events that point towards the true nature of Zoroastrianism and why we're having so much trouble categorising it. Please tell me what you think, but here's what I think happened. A lot of this is directly from this Wiki page:
Tiggy The Terrible ( talk) 16:48, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
I suspect there's two, but the stuff I've found so far allege three. Are there any others?
Tiggy The Terrible ( talk) 10:45, 20 April 2024 (UTC)