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Have tried to make this page more balanced and added a lot of historical information. -- Zeeshanhasan 09:17, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
According to the Zoroastrianism article, and according to other sources I am aware of, Zoroastrians are regarded as people of the book by most Muslims. Deserves a mention here, I don't feel confident enough of the material to do so myself ---- Charles Stewart 21:53, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Cut and paste from recent Islam and Muslims topic in Orkut (email me for invite if you want to follow the ref):
Posted by: Afshin 8/23/2004 1:37 PMEvidence for Magians being People of Book from Had 8/23/2004 1:36 PM
Sahih BukhariVolume 4, Book 53, Number 384:
Narrated 'Umar bin Dinar:… 'Umar did not take the Jizya from the Magian infidels till 'Abdur-Rahman bin 'Auf testified that Allah's Apostle had taken the Jizya from the Magians of Hajar.
(Jizya is only taken from People of the Book, not infidels.)
Malik’s Muwatta
Book 17, Number 17.24.42:Yahya related to me from Malik that Ibn Shihab said, "I have heard that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, took jizya from the magians of Bahrain, that Umar ibn al-Khattab took it from the magians of Persia and that Uthman ibn Affan took it from the Berbers."
Malik’s Muwatta
Book 17, Number 17.24.43:Yahya related to me from Malik from Jafar ibn Muhammad ibn Ali from his father that Umar ibn al-Khattab mentioned the magians and said, "I do not know what to do about them." Abd ar-Rahman ibn Awf said, "I bear witness that I heard the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, say, 'Follow the same sunna with them that you follow with the people of the Book.’ "
The above Hadith is also narrated from the Prophet via Imam Ali Zeynol Aabedin.
Ash’as ibn e Qeys asked Imam Ali why Magians pay Jizya although they never had a Book or a prophet. Imam Ali responded: Infact, God did send them a Book and a prophet.
---- Charles Stewart 22:28, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Often in the history of a religion, there are thing that are glorious, and some that are not. Those that are not, are in most cases, due to how followers of the religion interpret/misinterpret things.
Islam is no different. Though there are Qur'anic injunction that there was to be 'no compulsion in religion', there have been forcible conversions, especially during its early days. Iran (ancient Persia) is a case in point where the Zorastrian population was forcibly converted. Modern day Afganistan and Pakistan are also examples, where the Buddhist and Hindu population was converted.
I have tried to add more balance to the 'Conversion and warfare' section, trying to be as respectful and balanced as possible, and still sticking to the facts. The facts are important, no matter how uncomfortable they may be.
Here is another neutral source on this issue, the Library of Congress Countries study
Aurangazeb was not "less so" tolerant. He was simply intolerant!
_sarcasm_start_ How dare you say that? This is wikipedia, the bastion of PC-ness. Due to no editorial constraints, no truth, except the 'well accepted truth' is allowed here. Hence, Islam is a religion of peace. It never invaded country after country - both in the West (Spain etc), nor in the east (Iran, Afganistan, India..), and never forcibly converted people. And the millions who 'embraced' Islam with a sword at their throats, did so willingly. _sarcasm_end_
I took the long disquisition on inclusive and exclusive Islam out of the Islam article and melded it with the material already in this article. Then I completely reorganized everything as a historical survey, which I think does better justice to the enormous scope of the material.
This article is mostly wikified, but there may be things I overlooked. Ditto typos. Also, some subjects are treated rather cursorily. I've worked on this for hours and I'm tired! There are also no references and no external links, etc. I hope I can trust my fellow Wikipedians to supply the fully panoply. Yours in total exhaustion, Zora 06:30, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
Some things I dropped as being just too specific. It was mainly a question of style: if some sections were treated in great detail, and others were mere sketches, the article looked lumpy. But perhaps this was the wrong choice. Perhaps sketchy areas would have invited contribution. You're probably thinking of the material on the Bauls? That was one thing I hated dropping, as it was good. If you'd like to interrupt your wikivacation to further refine the article, add sections to be filled out later, and then add some of the information you feel should be restored, please do. I've usually approved of edits that you do. Zora 08:22, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
P.S. I hope that you approve of the re-organization into a historical framework. It seemed to me to put a lot of things in perspective. Zora 08:24, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
VampWillow made this editorial comment "markup; maybe this will also stop the rv problems ..." in adding a link to CE.
However, Zora has misrepresented what Jguk did in his reversion, claiming in another talk page that "a few hours later Jguk had changed the CE dates to AD!".
This is not true. He changed no CE dates to AD. He merely removed one instance where it was probably unnecessary and not worth starting an edit war over by including one or the other, changing "Sometime in the ninth and tenth centuries CE" to "Sometime in the ninth and tenth centuries".
I suggest that CE and the link to it be removed, preferably by VampWillow or Zora, unless there is some other era in which there is a real, significant possibility with which it could be confused, in which case, that era should probably be included as well. It is unlikely to be confused with the "tenth to ninth centuries BC/BCE", which should be expressed in that order with the word "to", is it? It really isn't all that necessary to the article, is it?
I also suggest that that usage, and this discussion on the talk page, should be considered sufficient to establish the original usage in this article of the Christian Era (CE), so that any future attempts to change that established usage would have to be discussed first or be subject to reversion. Gene Nygaard 11:41, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
I really don't understand why this dispute is coming over to articles on Islam. Muhammad was born around the year 570 and Islam arrived fairly shortly thereafter. Therefore there is never any chance of confusing a year AD with BC (or CE with BCE, if you prefer). We do not need either AD or CE to appear - they are superfluous. As Gene notes above, when reading "Sometime in the ninth and tenth centuries", do you really think there is any ambiguity such that a reader may think you are talking about issues eighteen to twenty centuries earlier? Incidentally, I have in the past removed both "AD"s and "CE"s from articles where there is no chance of any confusion about which year is being referred to. It just clutters things up and adds another possible layer of confusion if people do not understand the terms. Kind regards, jguk 12:03, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
I can't help but think that the title "Islam and other religions" doesn't really give a clear enough picture of the content of this article. A better name, I think, would be " Islam views of other religions" or something similar. violet/riga (t) 12:04, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
Doesn't sound good to me. Please slow down on this. I'd like to see what Grenavitar, Brandon, IFaqeer, and Mustafaa have to say to this. They are frequent and reasonable contributors to Islamic articles. Zora 19:52, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
OK, I can see that someone could read "Islam and other religions" as "Religions". I didn't parse it that way myself, but without any context, it's more ambiguous than I thought. I'd suggest Islamic belief and practice regarding other religions. But let's see what the Muslims think ... PLEASE. Since I'm not a Muslim, I can't speak for our Muslim editors, and I don't want to promote a new title that would be offensive or misleading.
As for expanding the article to cover how members of other religions view Islam -- that's completely unworkable. Look at the List of religions -- now consider how long the article would be if we had to present a historical treatment of how each of those religions has regarded Islam, over the centuries. I tell you what, Gene -- you write the article on Christian belief and practice regarding other religions, and then get back to us. <g> Zora 12:57, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
The description of Sufis here seems a bit slanted to me. Sufism is not just about wandering mystics; it's also about strongly hierarchical organizations which took on a significant political and economic role, and still maintain that in countries such as Senegal. Several Sufi orders fought valiant campaigns - notable Sufi fighters include Emir Abdelkader and Imam Shamyl in defense, as well as the Sanusi order, and Uthman dan Fodio in attack. And, as I understand it, Islam's peaceful spread in West Africa had less to do with Sufism than with the Dyula, devoutly Muslim traders with a tradition of living in infidel lands and attempting to convert by example and word. - Mustafaa 20:41, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
"Some distance themselves completely from their “idolatrous” surroundings and look forward to the day when their new countries will become Muslim. Some of these zealots are willing to engage in violence to advance the day. Most diasporic Muslims, however, appreciate their religious freedoms and are willing to tolerate other faiths." This entire paragraph seems kind of silly. Looking forward to the day when their new countries will become Muslim has nothing to do with dissociation, or any type of extremism, and certainly doesn't imply some sort of absence of tolerance. - Mustafaa 20:50, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
Idea Here is just a sentence with ideas that I think could be expanded.
While most Muslims integrate into Western societies or create their own sub-society in the west, some do not. As with the murder of Leo van Gogh there can be strong reaction to what is seen as the idolatrous nature of society in modern liberal democracies
I think it's less POV because it's less generalizing... for the most part everyone faults their own societ... I fault mine and I am very WASPish and have always lived in the US... so, I don't think we should make theses statements this way on the Muslim page. One concept I think should be expanded (not sure how) is the sub-society level of Muslims. I know in England (Edgeware Road) there were heavily Muslim areas that, while there was definitely influence from the outside, it was really a close-knit area where a great number of people wear niqab. It is not completely aloof since I remember at speakers corner a mullah was talking about the "decadence of selling alcohol all along Edgeware Road" but it isn't full integration... This is my understanding but I think the women were a lot less integrated... now, we'd need facts to add this but I know I addressed a few who couldn't speak English at all so their husbands had to talk instead. But, just like some hispanic communities in the US where not everyone speaks English, some groups of Muslims when they live in heavily Muslim (it's really more racial than religiouns, as in Bengali areas (Tower Hamlets), or Arab areas (Edgeware Road), etc... but, I think this is a big part of the diaspora... and the big communitiy where you have a full sized mosque and you keep your customs more or less intact and the Muslims who move to Outer Mongolia and have no one else around them... how to include this? I don't not know... gren 22:07, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
I changed some of Fayssal's edits, which seem to me to be POV in places. Frex, the description of intolerant Muslims as extremist groups. I would probably agree with Fayssal, but I don't think that the Deobandis or Wahhabis would like being described as extremists. As far as they're concerned, everyone else is out of step. I made a bunch of other small changes.
I repeat my appeal to Fayssal to work on this article, especially the pathetic sentence re Islamic Spain. This probably deserves a whole subsection. Zora 10:25, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
An anon editor has been working on this article and making generally good edits (won't you take a username, anon?). But he/she added one thing I excised ruthlessly -- a note that "Islam says" forced conversion is not allowable. One, given that there are so many sects, theologians, preachers, opinions, etc., one can't say "Islam says", as if Islam were a monolithic organization. We should be specific. (Question to self: have I trangressed this rule? probably! <g>) Also, in the very early history of Islam the "pagan" Arabian tribes were converted by force, so far as I know. There is a line to that effect in the article, so it's self-contradictory to later say that this is not allowed. Now this could be open to argument -- anyone want to say that the Ridda Wars weren't about forcing errant tribes back into the Islamic fold? Zora 03:35, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
This article mainly mentions quotes from the quran about the relationship between Islam and other Abrahamic religions i.e. Judaism and Christiannity.
What is the position of Islam on people of non-Abrahamic faiths ?
Overall, Islam has been generally tolerant of other faiths and still remains so. But ofcourse you do get that minority of individuals who excercise radicalism. Generally, Islam respects the non-Abrahamic faiths but that overall, the followers of non-Abrahamic faiths are considered the disbelievers. You will undoubtedly find a similar position in most other religions too including the other Abrahamic ones.
Obviously some reasearch is needed on this issue so that people may ascertain the facts. Generally, many have avoided saying things about the inter-faith positions becuase of the large amounts of controversy that it leads to, especially from those who know absolutely nothing about Islam but add large amounts of material to criticise it. Hope that helps a little. -- Anonymous editor 05:07, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
Another anon editor restored the para re "Islam prohibits forced conversion". Rather than just wipe it out, I moved it to its own section and rewrote it as one POV. I would imagine that there are other POVs, but I don't know enough to outline them. This is an issue that non-Muslims constantly bring up against Islam, and I can see why the anons are trying to play down the issue. But I would like it explained to ME why 1) compulsion is bad 2) the Ridda Wars were good (or were they?) 3) Whether or not I as a Buddhist am considered a pagan and therefore fair game <g>.
I keep meaning to buy Fazlur Rahman's book -- he probably has some great answers to these questions. But what would a Salafi say? A Sufi? Other trends of Islamic thought? Zora 04:21, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
A minority of individuals? More like Abu Bakr, the leader of the faithful, who is supposed to be one of the people to emulate. And ... I hardly dare say it ... Muhammad himself.
I'm of two minds here. On the one hand, a pacific interpretation of Islam cuts the ground out from under the jihadis and makes me, as a USian, safer. On the other hand, I'm enough of a scholar not to like seeing history distorted, even if it's for a good end. I can't see the Ridda wars as anything but conversion by force ... and I've found editors here at Wikipedia who see them as a GOOD and NECESSARY thing.
Myself, I question the evidently universal human impulse to look for a time, and a place, and a person, where everything is absolutely perfect and trustworthy. It's extremely disorienting to look at everything through a lens of history and judgement, and pick and choose, saying "this we can use now, this we can't". But perhaps that's what we have to do ... Zora 07:00, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
Gren and Zora, with all due respect, you have both been misinformed. When The Qur'an says, "Let there be no compulsion in religion" (2:256) it means forcing someone at the point of a sword to choose death or Islam is an idea that is foreign to Islam. So if there were forced conversions, they were made by a minority of individuals. As Farahanser previously mentioned, the early Islamic conversions were not by force. Thus, this is a situation similar to the Bible saying that "thou shalt not kill" and a minority of people doing just that. Thus, because this article is clearly that of an Islamic perspective, I think the main view of the muslim majority should be indicated and not the ones who have disobeyed this.
Secondly, I have no idea what a "Jihadi" is; it is probably another word concocted by the American media. I think I should clarify to you that Jihad exists at many levels and the very extreme is the offensive form. Thus, who you are probably calling "Jihadi" are probably those who excercise a very radical form of religion and you must realize that we have no idea whether they authorize forced conversions or not. I mean have you ever talked to any of them? Any radical form of religion is wrong and thus the so-called "Jihadis" can probably be related to that of extreme christians who feel it is necessary to "convert the world" so that people may "save themselves". Nevertheless, this article is not about the Jihadis" or extremists, it is about the Islamic view. Since, Islam is based on the Qur'an, forced conversion is foreign to the beliefs and if a minority of muslims exercise that type of coversion they are wrong to do so.-- Anonymous editor 11:37, May 31, 2005 (UTC)
Fayssal/Svest, Wikipedia can't take a position on what is true Islam and what isn't. That's contrary to the ethic of NPOV. NPOV allows us to work together on an article even if we have different views of the truth of the matter, because we are just reporting what people believe, not taking sides. Any time there's a dispute, we step back and take a larger view.
I take the point re using "jihadi" -- but word can I use? I thought of using "Islamist", but I believe that there might be tolerant and non-violent Islamists. What non-pejorative word is there for the folks who believe that Islam is to be imposed and spread NOW by violent means? Zora 17:39, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
Are there any such people? I'm not aware of them. Even groups like Al-Qaeda seek to spread Muslim rule or revenge perceived wrongs, not, as far as I know, to force non-Muslims to convert to Islam; but maybe you can find a quote that suggests otherwise. As for the Ridda Wars, they were against alleged apostates - including those who refused to pay zakat - not non-Muslims in general. - Mustafaa 17:48, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
Mustafaa removed a phrase saying that non-Muslims were barred from Arabia, saying that the existence of Jewish communities in Arabia disproved that. I think this deserves discussion.
I've done some proofreading on old Arabian travelogues for Distributed Proofreaders -- Doughty's famous Arabia Deserta and a work by some intrepid late Victorian adventurers. In both cases, the authors say that they were received with deep hostility and repeated statements that infidels weren't allowed in Arabia. I have the impression that this wasn't something necessarily imposed by the authorities (though it might have started that way) but a long-held folk belief. I wondered if this might not be the origin of Osama Bin Laden's ferocious conviction that infidels should be driven from Arabia.
It's unclear to me how this attitude relates to the evident tolerance for Jewish minorities. Yes, Mustafaa is right, there were Jewish settlements in Yemen and Oman. Perhaps the ban just applied to Christians? Anyway, we have a puzzle here. Zora 21:41, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
I found this Jewish website about Yemeni Jews. [1] I dunno how trustworthy it is, but it says that it was the Zaydi Shi'a who tolerated the Jews. Apparently not so kindly, in some cases. I'd have to look at the travelogues I mentioned to find out if those who objected to the European visitors were Sunni or Shi'a. Zora 01:18, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
this is one of the most ludicrous, bigoted, and biased articles in wikipedia. to just list one example, to claim the many observers consider the taliban to be intolerant of of other....NO, by any objective measure the taliaban was a theocratic nazi nest of vipers - if you can't admit that then don't attempt to write and article here, save your comments for the taliban daily news where they will be appreciated.
Every religion has ideals, and then it has what happened in practice. Islam is no different. Even though there are strictures against forcible conversion, it did occur, and in significant numbers in the Indian subcontinent. By editing out my changes and removing my references, one of which is- STORY OF CIVILIZATION, Will Durant ( ISBN 067154800X), you cannot erase history. You can remove wikipedia's version of it, but not if I can help it. The history of Islam in India is very bloody, and I intend to have it heard.
I've read Story of Civilization (well, the first few volumes, anyway) and it's a terrible source to be quoting on India. It's obsolete, written by an author whose main interest and expertise was in Europe (as illustrated by the other 10-odd volumes), and highly opinionated (as shown by this quote.) The facts he presents are of interest; the philosophical conclusions he constantly draws, while entertaining, have no place here, being neither neutral nor verifiable. Now if you were to give some details on the claimed forced conversions, that would be verifiable and relevant, unlike someone's musings on the precariousness of civilization. - Mustafaa 28 June 2005 21:50 (UTC)
I am aware of no one who claims that the Ghaznavid conquests were "peaceful" (that would be ridiculous.) However, bloody conquests do not imply forced conversion, and you still haven't provided any details on the nature of the claimed forced conversions. - Mustafaa 28 June 2005 22:07 (UTC)
Still no answer to my question. I am removing the claim pending provision of details. - Mustafaa 29 June 2005 18:33 (UTC)
Ok, whoever is editing this behind my back - is it not true that AI calls the actons of the Northern Sudanese ethnic cleaning against the black Christians - you know it is so so don't take that out; and did not the Taliban force Hindus to wear yellow dress - again, widelly reported, if you take that out you are trying to whitewash the Taliban, it makes me suspect your ulitimate goal here. And are there not many fundamentalist Imans who claim that targeting civilians is proper if doing so is in defense of Islam - you know that is true, again, take it out if the truth embarrasses you, but it's your religions (I assume) so deal with it.
So the Taliban sympathizers continue to reedit this page. Simple dude, you will not be allowed to do so, everytime you do the forces of truth and justice will set forth the truth. This is not Saudi Arabia, this is not the Sudan, this is the free world at work. If you feel you must lie, exaggerate and tell untruths, do it on the Arabic version of the Wikipedia - the English version will tell the truth, and the truth will set you free.
Well, I was wrong, Wikipedia can be gamed, the anonymous "moderator" who controls this site was able to "disappear" me for attempting to edit these pages, claiming I was vandalizing the site, if you want to look at my editing changes you will see my corrections were not destructive but an attempt to correct the abuses of the "owner" of this site. I now know that wikipedia is perhaps informative when talking about the structure of the atom, or the geography to Tibet, but when dealing with a controversial subject the "owner" of a particular page can ban those who object to their biases. So one more cultural icon proves to have clay feet. So sad.
I'm very much in sympathy with the signed and unsigned complaints about this article. Although there are hints of intolerance -- for instance, the persecution of Bahá'ís in Iran -- the article understates Muslim religious intolerance to such an astonishing degree that it is, for all practical purposes, a propaganda piece. One can only guess what one writer means by "freedom of religion adhering to democratic principles," but the apparent intent is to give the impression that there are predominantly Muslim countries in which citizens enjoy freedom of religion equal or comparable to the freedom of religion enjoyed by citizens of Western Europe and North America. That is not true. The statement that Saudi Arabia "limits religious freedom to a high degree, prohibiting public worship by other religions" is a gross understatement of Saudi religious intolerance, and the statement that the Taliban regime "was considered intolerant by many observers" is very remarkable. One wonders which observers considered the Taliban tolerant, and how intolerant a regime would have to be before it could be plainly acknowledged as intolerant by Wikipedia. The footnote about jizya is disingenuous, and the complete omission of any mention of the concepts of Dar al-Islam and Dar al-Harb inexplicable. The "Muslims in diaspora" section is ridiculous in its understatement of Muslim difficulties with religious freedom in the West -- and what does it mean, anyway, to speak of "Muslims in diaspora"? What is the Muslim "homeland?" As it presently stands, the article includes no mention of the French headcovering controversy, the Danish cartoons, al-Qaeda, Theo van Gogh, the Flying Imams, etc., etc. Remarkable. I haven't made any edits to the article, since doing so seems an exercise in futility.
WilliamBarrett 09:52, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
I got a question regarding the sentence "However, the Arabs who followed their traditional polytheistic religion were given only the choice of conversion or execution." in part Practice of the early Muslims
Is it the following sentence true:
"However, the Arabs who followed their traditional polytheistic religion who were defeated in wars against Muslims were given only the choice of conversion, exile or execution."
Thanks.-- Aminz 06:33, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Another question: I think only the day before the conquest of Mecca, Muhammad warned a few particular guys to leave Mecca by tomorrow in order to save their life. I would like to know that who were the Arabs that were given the choice of conversion or execution. Thanks. -- Aminz 00:02, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Zora. I think you are right. There seems to be no way out of this one. It should be then included in the Criticism of Islam article. But first, I would like to know how Judaism and Christianity were traditionally dealing with "idolators". And what are relevant Quranic verses in justification of Muhammad's way of dealing with "idolators". -- Aminz 00:35, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I personally think that Muslims are exaggerating in praising Muhammad. Muhammad was not sinless. There is nowhere Quran says that Muhammad is perfect. Although, when Meccans accused Muhammad to be mad or possessed, Quran said that Nay, he is not mad or possessed but he has indeed an exalted character (68:2-4). This verse was a reply to Meccans and does not prove that he was perfect. Muhammad was also proposed as a pattern for Muslims and it makes sense because every people should look at their prophet and learn how to behave. I agree that it seems that Muhammad didn't respect the polytheist religion of Arabs. It was certainly offensive to them when Muhammad destroyed their idols. It should be included in criticism of Islam article. When some religion claims Truth, then they may be able to justify something for people within the religion but not for people outside the religion. Also, by the way, I should mention that there are also many verses in Quran asking implying tolerance. For example, Muslims are forbidden to insult gods of other religions. There is another verse require Muslims to show respect for the rituals of other people. Also, the famous verse “Let there be no compulsion in the religion” and other verses. But I agree there is something here that does not make sense. -- Aminz 04:58, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
This article doesn't give any mention of all about Islam and it's relationship with more recently created religions (examples include Mormonism and Scientology), does anyone have any information about this subject? The Fading Light 20:01, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
I have objected to the repeated use of non-Muslim authorities in lieu of Muslim authorities and the rejection of Muslim authorities and divergent opinions, only to be constantly threatened with blocking and banning for speaking up against the use of Friedman as the voice of Islam. I have had prominent sheikhs and jurists edited out and replaced with Friedman in preference for a rigid, biased opinion of Islamic law and traditions, refusing to take into account the traditon of diversity of thought in Islam.
I am a Muslim woman who is married to a non-Muslim man, and we were married with a nikah. I am one of many married out women, and we have existed since Islam was introduced into the Arab world. That there were Muslimas married to non-Muslim women in the Prophet's circle is well-known in history, but that fact has been buried by ultra-conservatives, and aided and abetted by those here who refuse to allow for any other viewpoint than that which places culture over Islam, for Islam, the sharia, has imposed no prohibition against Muslim women marrying out. That is a point we can discuss openly and objectively, or, some more posters can come to my page again to threaten me and/or block me, and delete this post. I'm not sure what the fear is of someone who has done what is written about in error. I don't know of any Islamic scholars here, and I'm still waiting for an explanation as to why Freidman has more say about Islam than true Islamic scholars. FOA 05:39, 30 October 2007 (UTC) FOA
Statements about forced conversion need attribution because it is a controversial topic, and because it is only one view presented. It isn't like the same view is presented by multiple scholars; it is only one. And the quote comes from Waines book, not Lewis'. Yahel Guhan 23:37, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Yahel, it's edits like these that suggest to me that a) you don't quite understand my objection, and b) you don't observe the content you are reverting closely enough. hopefully, i am wrong on both counts. with regards to a), my objection has nothing to do with whether the incidents themselves were "minor", i said they were "minority incidences" i.e. they were rare. as per WP:UNDUE, we don't overstate the incidences of forced conversion to make them look more prevelant than the facts suggest. with regards to b), you changed the attribution of a quote from Lewis to Waines. as the editor who actually inserted that content, i can guarantee you have not looked at either of the books cited. please look at both citations, and then feel free to self-revert. you said that attribution lessens POV. you're right, but where is there any POV? these are neutral uncontested facts. one doesn't say "According to Bernard Lewis, the sky is blue", because it's not contested, and it's not an opinion- and thus, no attribution is required. ITAQALLAH 23:45, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Firstly, I cannot find any reference to data source. Is this original work? Second, there are two countries presented as Muslim in Europe, Albania and Bosnia and Herzegovina (BH). BH is neither Muslim country (Muslims are relative majority), nor belongs to group where other religious groups are somehow oppressed. Third, by Constitution, Turkey is secular in public/government issues, but religions, either Islam or others, are not oppressed by state. This picture has to be changed, or removed. Plantago ( talk) 18:58, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
"600-900 Qurayza men were beheaded (except for the few who chose to convert to Islam) and their properties confiscated, and their women were taken as sex slaves, and children were slaves." The following is dubious, as it is contended as being false, and also the claim of sex slaves presents a POV that is unrealistic and dubious in itself. Faro0485 ( talk) 14:58, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
my name is siddiq.ISLAM NEED TO BE PUT BACK ON THE SIRITA MUSTAQEEM.ISLAM IS NOT BEING REPRESENTED ON THEP — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.89.115.186 ( talk) 00:03, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
Greetings: A question I've often wondered about and never got any clear answer to. If a verifiable, documented answer can be given to it, it could go into the article. This is the question: Where do non-Muslims go after death according to Islam? What happens to them at the Last Judgement? Does a righteous non-Muslim automatically go to Hell just for not being a Muslim, even though he or she may in all other respects be a good, righteous and moral person? Or can righteous non-Muslims also go to Paradise and be saved at the Last Judgement? I'm inquiring not only about scriptural authority but also about the common interpretations and answers that may have been given to the question through the history of Islam, down to this 21st century of ours. Thanks. Contact Basemetal here 20:56, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
It's been disputed. Some verses say non-Muslims can go to Heaven and others say they won't. People can't seem to agree on whether non-Muslims can be saved or not. 86.40.141.29 ( talk) 22:56, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
The christian supreme court justice of Pakistan was in office during the 1960's. It is misleading to say that could happen today. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.13.110.202 ( talk) 09:27, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
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...pending their becoming Muslim, of course.
And what they are permitted to do in that circumstance.
This seems like the appropriate article for this subject, but I'm not seeing it. So I suggest someone knowledgeable add it. Andyvphil ( talk) 18:50, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
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Will Durant, in The Story of Civilization, described this as "probably the bloodiest story in history." The above mentioned sentence is absolutely wrong. Therefore, I would like to request the editors panel, to cancel or delete the sentence permanently. Maisha82 ( talk) 21:12, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
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Have tried to make this page more balanced and added a lot of historical information. -- Zeeshanhasan 09:17, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
According to the Zoroastrianism article, and according to other sources I am aware of, Zoroastrians are regarded as people of the book by most Muslims. Deserves a mention here, I don't feel confident enough of the material to do so myself ---- Charles Stewart 21:53, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Cut and paste from recent Islam and Muslims topic in Orkut (email me for invite if you want to follow the ref):
Posted by: Afshin 8/23/2004 1:37 PMEvidence for Magians being People of Book from Had 8/23/2004 1:36 PM
Sahih BukhariVolume 4, Book 53, Number 384:
Narrated 'Umar bin Dinar:… 'Umar did not take the Jizya from the Magian infidels till 'Abdur-Rahman bin 'Auf testified that Allah's Apostle had taken the Jizya from the Magians of Hajar.
(Jizya is only taken from People of the Book, not infidels.)
Malik’s Muwatta
Book 17, Number 17.24.42:Yahya related to me from Malik that Ibn Shihab said, "I have heard that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, took jizya from the magians of Bahrain, that Umar ibn al-Khattab took it from the magians of Persia and that Uthman ibn Affan took it from the Berbers."
Malik’s Muwatta
Book 17, Number 17.24.43:Yahya related to me from Malik from Jafar ibn Muhammad ibn Ali from his father that Umar ibn al-Khattab mentioned the magians and said, "I do not know what to do about them." Abd ar-Rahman ibn Awf said, "I bear witness that I heard the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, say, 'Follow the same sunna with them that you follow with the people of the Book.’ "
The above Hadith is also narrated from the Prophet via Imam Ali Zeynol Aabedin.
Ash’as ibn e Qeys asked Imam Ali why Magians pay Jizya although they never had a Book or a prophet. Imam Ali responded: Infact, God did send them a Book and a prophet.
---- Charles Stewart 22:28, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Often in the history of a religion, there are thing that are glorious, and some that are not. Those that are not, are in most cases, due to how followers of the religion interpret/misinterpret things.
Islam is no different. Though there are Qur'anic injunction that there was to be 'no compulsion in religion', there have been forcible conversions, especially during its early days. Iran (ancient Persia) is a case in point where the Zorastrian population was forcibly converted. Modern day Afganistan and Pakistan are also examples, where the Buddhist and Hindu population was converted.
I have tried to add more balance to the 'Conversion and warfare' section, trying to be as respectful and balanced as possible, and still sticking to the facts. The facts are important, no matter how uncomfortable they may be.
Here is another neutral source on this issue, the Library of Congress Countries study
Aurangazeb was not "less so" tolerant. He was simply intolerant!
_sarcasm_start_ How dare you say that? This is wikipedia, the bastion of PC-ness. Due to no editorial constraints, no truth, except the 'well accepted truth' is allowed here. Hence, Islam is a religion of peace. It never invaded country after country - both in the West (Spain etc), nor in the east (Iran, Afganistan, India..), and never forcibly converted people. And the millions who 'embraced' Islam with a sword at their throats, did so willingly. _sarcasm_end_
I took the long disquisition on inclusive and exclusive Islam out of the Islam article and melded it with the material already in this article. Then I completely reorganized everything as a historical survey, which I think does better justice to the enormous scope of the material.
This article is mostly wikified, but there may be things I overlooked. Ditto typos. Also, some subjects are treated rather cursorily. I've worked on this for hours and I'm tired! There are also no references and no external links, etc. I hope I can trust my fellow Wikipedians to supply the fully panoply. Yours in total exhaustion, Zora 06:30, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
Some things I dropped as being just too specific. It was mainly a question of style: if some sections were treated in great detail, and others were mere sketches, the article looked lumpy. But perhaps this was the wrong choice. Perhaps sketchy areas would have invited contribution. You're probably thinking of the material on the Bauls? That was one thing I hated dropping, as it was good. If you'd like to interrupt your wikivacation to further refine the article, add sections to be filled out later, and then add some of the information you feel should be restored, please do. I've usually approved of edits that you do. Zora 08:22, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
P.S. I hope that you approve of the re-organization into a historical framework. It seemed to me to put a lot of things in perspective. Zora 08:24, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
VampWillow made this editorial comment "markup; maybe this will also stop the rv problems ..." in adding a link to CE.
However, Zora has misrepresented what Jguk did in his reversion, claiming in another talk page that "a few hours later Jguk had changed the CE dates to AD!".
This is not true. He changed no CE dates to AD. He merely removed one instance where it was probably unnecessary and not worth starting an edit war over by including one or the other, changing "Sometime in the ninth and tenth centuries CE" to "Sometime in the ninth and tenth centuries".
I suggest that CE and the link to it be removed, preferably by VampWillow or Zora, unless there is some other era in which there is a real, significant possibility with which it could be confused, in which case, that era should probably be included as well. It is unlikely to be confused with the "tenth to ninth centuries BC/BCE", which should be expressed in that order with the word "to", is it? It really isn't all that necessary to the article, is it?
I also suggest that that usage, and this discussion on the talk page, should be considered sufficient to establish the original usage in this article of the Christian Era (CE), so that any future attempts to change that established usage would have to be discussed first or be subject to reversion. Gene Nygaard 11:41, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
I really don't understand why this dispute is coming over to articles on Islam. Muhammad was born around the year 570 and Islam arrived fairly shortly thereafter. Therefore there is never any chance of confusing a year AD with BC (or CE with BCE, if you prefer). We do not need either AD or CE to appear - they are superfluous. As Gene notes above, when reading "Sometime in the ninth and tenth centuries", do you really think there is any ambiguity such that a reader may think you are talking about issues eighteen to twenty centuries earlier? Incidentally, I have in the past removed both "AD"s and "CE"s from articles where there is no chance of any confusion about which year is being referred to. It just clutters things up and adds another possible layer of confusion if people do not understand the terms. Kind regards, jguk 12:03, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
I can't help but think that the title "Islam and other religions" doesn't really give a clear enough picture of the content of this article. A better name, I think, would be " Islam views of other religions" or something similar. violet/riga (t) 12:04, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
Doesn't sound good to me. Please slow down on this. I'd like to see what Grenavitar, Brandon, IFaqeer, and Mustafaa have to say to this. They are frequent and reasonable contributors to Islamic articles. Zora 19:52, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
OK, I can see that someone could read "Islam and other religions" as "Religions". I didn't parse it that way myself, but without any context, it's more ambiguous than I thought. I'd suggest Islamic belief and practice regarding other religions. But let's see what the Muslims think ... PLEASE. Since I'm not a Muslim, I can't speak for our Muslim editors, and I don't want to promote a new title that would be offensive or misleading.
As for expanding the article to cover how members of other religions view Islam -- that's completely unworkable. Look at the List of religions -- now consider how long the article would be if we had to present a historical treatment of how each of those religions has regarded Islam, over the centuries. I tell you what, Gene -- you write the article on Christian belief and practice regarding other religions, and then get back to us. <g> Zora 12:57, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
The description of Sufis here seems a bit slanted to me. Sufism is not just about wandering mystics; it's also about strongly hierarchical organizations which took on a significant political and economic role, and still maintain that in countries such as Senegal. Several Sufi orders fought valiant campaigns - notable Sufi fighters include Emir Abdelkader and Imam Shamyl in defense, as well as the Sanusi order, and Uthman dan Fodio in attack. And, as I understand it, Islam's peaceful spread in West Africa had less to do with Sufism than with the Dyula, devoutly Muslim traders with a tradition of living in infidel lands and attempting to convert by example and word. - Mustafaa 20:41, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
"Some distance themselves completely from their “idolatrous” surroundings and look forward to the day when their new countries will become Muslim. Some of these zealots are willing to engage in violence to advance the day. Most diasporic Muslims, however, appreciate their religious freedoms and are willing to tolerate other faiths." This entire paragraph seems kind of silly. Looking forward to the day when their new countries will become Muslim has nothing to do with dissociation, or any type of extremism, and certainly doesn't imply some sort of absence of tolerance. - Mustafaa 20:50, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
Idea Here is just a sentence with ideas that I think could be expanded.
While most Muslims integrate into Western societies or create their own sub-society in the west, some do not. As with the murder of Leo van Gogh there can be strong reaction to what is seen as the idolatrous nature of society in modern liberal democracies
I think it's less POV because it's less generalizing... for the most part everyone faults their own societ... I fault mine and I am very WASPish and have always lived in the US... so, I don't think we should make theses statements this way on the Muslim page. One concept I think should be expanded (not sure how) is the sub-society level of Muslims. I know in England (Edgeware Road) there were heavily Muslim areas that, while there was definitely influence from the outside, it was really a close-knit area where a great number of people wear niqab. It is not completely aloof since I remember at speakers corner a mullah was talking about the "decadence of selling alcohol all along Edgeware Road" but it isn't full integration... This is my understanding but I think the women were a lot less integrated... now, we'd need facts to add this but I know I addressed a few who couldn't speak English at all so their husbands had to talk instead. But, just like some hispanic communities in the US where not everyone speaks English, some groups of Muslims when they live in heavily Muslim (it's really more racial than religiouns, as in Bengali areas (Tower Hamlets), or Arab areas (Edgeware Road), etc... but, I think this is a big part of the diaspora... and the big communitiy where you have a full sized mosque and you keep your customs more or less intact and the Muslims who move to Outer Mongolia and have no one else around them... how to include this? I don't not know... gren 22:07, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
I changed some of Fayssal's edits, which seem to me to be POV in places. Frex, the description of intolerant Muslims as extremist groups. I would probably agree with Fayssal, but I don't think that the Deobandis or Wahhabis would like being described as extremists. As far as they're concerned, everyone else is out of step. I made a bunch of other small changes.
I repeat my appeal to Fayssal to work on this article, especially the pathetic sentence re Islamic Spain. This probably deserves a whole subsection. Zora 10:25, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
An anon editor has been working on this article and making generally good edits (won't you take a username, anon?). But he/she added one thing I excised ruthlessly -- a note that "Islam says" forced conversion is not allowable. One, given that there are so many sects, theologians, preachers, opinions, etc., one can't say "Islam says", as if Islam were a monolithic organization. We should be specific. (Question to self: have I trangressed this rule? probably! <g>) Also, in the very early history of Islam the "pagan" Arabian tribes were converted by force, so far as I know. There is a line to that effect in the article, so it's self-contradictory to later say that this is not allowed. Now this could be open to argument -- anyone want to say that the Ridda Wars weren't about forcing errant tribes back into the Islamic fold? Zora 03:35, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
This article mainly mentions quotes from the quran about the relationship between Islam and other Abrahamic religions i.e. Judaism and Christiannity.
What is the position of Islam on people of non-Abrahamic faiths ?
Overall, Islam has been generally tolerant of other faiths and still remains so. But ofcourse you do get that minority of individuals who excercise radicalism. Generally, Islam respects the non-Abrahamic faiths but that overall, the followers of non-Abrahamic faiths are considered the disbelievers. You will undoubtedly find a similar position in most other religions too including the other Abrahamic ones.
Obviously some reasearch is needed on this issue so that people may ascertain the facts. Generally, many have avoided saying things about the inter-faith positions becuase of the large amounts of controversy that it leads to, especially from those who know absolutely nothing about Islam but add large amounts of material to criticise it. Hope that helps a little. -- Anonymous editor 05:07, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
Another anon editor restored the para re "Islam prohibits forced conversion". Rather than just wipe it out, I moved it to its own section and rewrote it as one POV. I would imagine that there are other POVs, but I don't know enough to outline them. This is an issue that non-Muslims constantly bring up against Islam, and I can see why the anons are trying to play down the issue. But I would like it explained to ME why 1) compulsion is bad 2) the Ridda Wars were good (or were they?) 3) Whether or not I as a Buddhist am considered a pagan and therefore fair game <g>.
I keep meaning to buy Fazlur Rahman's book -- he probably has some great answers to these questions. But what would a Salafi say? A Sufi? Other trends of Islamic thought? Zora 04:21, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
A minority of individuals? More like Abu Bakr, the leader of the faithful, who is supposed to be one of the people to emulate. And ... I hardly dare say it ... Muhammad himself.
I'm of two minds here. On the one hand, a pacific interpretation of Islam cuts the ground out from under the jihadis and makes me, as a USian, safer. On the other hand, I'm enough of a scholar not to like seeing history distorted, even if it's for a good end. I can't see the Ridda wars as anything but conversion by force ... and I've found editors here at Wikipedia who see them as a GOOD and NECESSARY thing.
Myself, I question the evidently universal human impulse to look for a time, and a place, and a person, where everything is absolutely perfect and trustworthy. It's extremely disorienting to look at everything through a lens of history and judgement, and pick and choose, saying "this we can use now, this we can't". But perhaps that's what we have to do ... Zora 07:00, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
Gren and Zora, with all due respect, you have both been misinformed. When The Qur'an says, "Let there be no compulsion in religion" (2:256) it means forcing someone at the point of a sword to choose death or Islam is an idea that is foreign to Islam. So if there were forced conversions, they were made by a minority of individuals. As Farahanser previously mentioned, the early Islamic conversions were not by force. Thus, this is a situation similar to the Bible saying that "thou shalt not kill" and a minority of people doing just that. Thus, because this article is clearly that of an Islamic perspective, I think the main view of the muslim majority should be indicated and not the ones who have disobeyed this.
Secondly, I have no idea what a "Jihadi" is; it is probably another word concocted by the American media. I think I should clarify to you that Jihad exists at many levels and the very extreme is the offensive form. Thus, who you are probably calling "Jihadi" are probably those who excercise a very radical form of religion and you must realize that we have no idea whether they authorize forced conversions or not. I mean have you ever talked to any of them? Any radical form of religion is wrong and thus the so-called "Jihadis" can probably be related to that of extreme christians who feel it is necessary to "convert the world" so that people may "save themselves". Nevertheless, this article is not about the Jihadis" or extremists, it is about the Islamic view. Since, Islam is based on the Qur'an, forced conversion is foreign to the beliefs and if a minority of muslims exercise that type of coversion they are wrong to do so.-- Anonymous editor 11:37, May 31, 2005 (UTC)
Fayssal/Svest, Wikipedia can't take a position on what is true Islam and what isn't. That's contrary to the ethic of NPOV. NPOV allows us to work together on an article even if we have different views of the truth of the matter, because we are just reporting what people believe, not taking sides. Any time there's a dispute, we step back and take a larger view.
I take the point re using "jihadi" -- but word can I use? I thought of using "Islamist", but I believe that there might be tolerant and non-violent Islamists. What non-pejorative word is there for the folks who believe that Islam is to be imposed and spread NOW by violent means? Zora 17:39, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
Are there any such people? I'm not aware of them. Even groups like Al-Qaeda seek to spread Muslim rule or revenge perceived wrongs, not, as far as I know, to force non-Muslims to convert to Islam; but maybe you can find a quote that suggests otherwise. As for the Ridda Wars, they were against alleged apostates - including those who refused to pay zakat - not non-Muslims in general. - Mustafaa 17:48, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
Mustafaa removed a phrase saying that non-Muslims were barred from Arabia, saying that the existence of Jewish communities in Arabia disproved that. I think this deserves discussion.
I've done some proofreading on old Arabian travelogues for Distributed Proofreaders -- Doughty's famous Arabia Deserta and a work by some intrepid late Victorian adventurers. In both cases, the authors say that they were received with deep hostility and repeated statements that infidels weren't allowed in Arabia. I have the impression that this wasn't something necessarily imposed by the authorities (though it might have started that way) but a long-held folk belief. I wondered if this might not be the origin of Osama Bin Laden's ferocious conviction that infidels should be driven from Arabia.
It's unclear to me how this attitude relates to the evident tolerance for Jewish minorities. Yes, Mustafaa is right, there were Jewish settlements in Yemen and Oman. Perhaps the ban just applied to Christians? Anyway, we have a puzzle here. Zora 21:41, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
I found this Jewish website about Yemeni Jews. [1] I dunno how trustworthy it is, but it says that it was the Zaydi Shi'a who tolerated the Jews. Apparently not so kindly, in some cases. I'd have to look at the travelogues I mentioned to find out if those who objected to the European visitors were Sunni or Shi'a. Zora 01:18, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
this is one of the most ludicrous, bigoted, and biased articles in wikipedia. to just list one example, to claim the many observers consider the taliban to be intolerant of of other....NO, by any objective measure the taliaban was a theocratic nazi nest of vipers - if you can't admit that then don't attempt to write and article here, save your comments for the taliban daily news where they will be appreciated.
Every religion has ideals, and then it has what happened in practice. Islam is no different. Even though there are strictures against forcible conversion, it did occur, and in significant numbers in the Indian subcontinent. By editing out my changes and removing my references, one of which is- STORY OF CIVILIZATION, Will Durant ( ISBN 067154800X), you cannot erase history. You can remove wikipedia's version of it, but not if I can help it. The history of Islam in India is very bloody, and I intend to have it heard.
I've read Story of Civilization (well, the first few volumes, anyway) and it's a terrible source to be quoting on India. It's obsolete, written by an author whose main interest and expertise was in Europe (as illustrated by the other 10-odd volumes), and highly opinionated (as shown by this quote.) The facts he presents are of interest; the philosophical conclusions he constantly draws, while entertaining, have no place here, being neither neutral nor verifiable. Now if you were to give some details on the claimed forced conversions, that would be verifiable and relevant, unlike someone's musings on the precariousness of civilization. - Mustafaa 28 June 2005 21:50 (UTC)
I am aware of no one who claims that the Ghaznavid conquests were "peaceful" (that would be ridiculous.) However, bloody conquests do not imply forced conversion, and you still haven't provided any details on the nature of the claimed forced conversions. - Mustafaa 28 June 2005 22:07 (UTC)
Still no answer to my question. I am removing the claim pending provision of details. - Mustafaa 29 June 2005 18:33 (UTC)
Ok, whoever is editing this behind my back - is it not true that AI calls the actons of the Northern Sudanese ethnic cleaning against the black Christians - you know it is so so don't take that out; and did not the Taliban force Hindus to wear yellow dress - again, widelly reported, if you take that out you are trying to whitewash the Taliban, it makes me suspect your ulitimate goal here. And are there not many fundamentalist Imans who claim that targeting civilians is proper if doing so is in defense of Islam - you know that is true, again, take it out if the truth embarrasses you, but it's your religions (I assume) so deal with it.
So the Taliban sympathizers continue to reedit this page. Simple dude, you will not be allowed to do so, everytime you do the forces of truth and justice will set forth the truth. This is not Saudi Arabia, this is not the Sudan, this is the free world at work. If you feel you must lie, exaggerate and tell untruths, do it on the Arabic version of the Wikipedia - the English version will tell the truth, and the truth will set you free.
Well, I was wrong, Wikipedia can be gamed, the anonymous "moderator" who controls this site was able to "disappear" me for attempting to edit these pages, claiming I was vandalizing the site, if you want to look at my editing changes you will see my corrections were not destructive but an attempt to correct the abuses of the "owner" of this site. I now know that wikipedia is perhaps informative when talking about the structure of the atom, or the geography to Tibet, but when dealing with a controversial subject the "owner" of a particular page can ban those who object to their biases. So one more cultural icon proves to have clay feet. So sad.
I'm very much in sympathy with the signed and unsigned complaints about this article. Although there are hints of intolerance -- for instance, the persecution of Bahá'ís in Iran -- the article understates Muslim religious intolerance to such an astonishing degree that it is, for all practical purposes, a propaganda piece. One can only guess what one writer means by "freedom of religion adhering to democratic principles," but the apparent intent is to give the impression that there are predominantly Muslim countries in which citizens enjoy freedom of religion equal or comparable to the freedom of religion enjoyed by citizens of Western Europe and North America. That is not true. The statement that Saudi Arabia "limits religious freedom to a high degree, prohibiting public worship by other religions" is a gross understatement of Saudi religious intolerance, and the statement that the Taliban regime "was considered intolerant by many observers" is very remarkable. One wonders which observers considered the Taliban tolerant, and how intolerant a regime would have to be before it could be plainly acknowledged as intolerant by Wikipedia. The footnote about jizya is disingenuous, and the complete omission of any mention of the concepts of Dar al-Islam and Dar al-Harb inexplicable. The "Muslims in diaspora" section is ridiculous in its understatement of Muslim difficulties with religious freedom in the West -- and what does it mean, anyway, to speak of "Muslims in diaspora"? What is the Muslim "homeland?" As it presently stands, the article includes no mention of the French headcovering controversy, the Danish cartoons, al-Qaeda, Theo van Gogh, the Flying Imams, etc., etc. Remarkable. I haven't made any edits to the article, since doing so seems an exercise in futility.
WilliamBarrett 09:52, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
I got a question regarding the sentence "However, the Arabs who followed their traditional polytheistic religion were given only the choice of conversion or execution." in part Practice of the early Muslims
Is it the following sentence true:
"However, the Arabs who followed their traditional polytheistic religion who were defeated in wars against Muslims were given only the choice of conversion, exile or execution."
Thanks.-- Aminz 06:33, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Another question: I think only the day before the conquest of Mecca, Muhammad warned a few particular guys to leave Mecca by tomorrow in order to save their life. I would like to know that who were the Arabs that were given the choice of conversion or execution. Thanks. -- Aminz 00:02, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Zora. I think you are right. There seems to be no way out of this one. It should be then included in the Criticism of Islam article. But first, I would like to know how Judaism and Christianity were traditionally dealing with "idolators". And what are relevant Quranic verses in justification of Muhammad's way of dealing with "idolators". -- Aminz 00:35, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I personally think that Muslims are exaggerating in praising Muhammad. Muhammad was not sinless. There is nowhere Quran says that Muhammad is perfect. Although, when Meccans accused Muhammad to be mad or possessed, Quran said that Nay, he is not mad or possessed but he has indeed an exalted character (68:2-4). This verse was a reply to Meccans and does not prove that he was perfect. Muhammad was also proposed as a pattern for Muslims and it makes sense because every people should look at their prophet and learn how to behave. I agree that it seems that Muhammad didn't respect the polytheist religion of Arabs. It was certainly offensive to them when Muhammad destroyed their idols. It should be included in criticism of Islam article. When some religion claims Truth, then they may be able to justify something for people within the religion but not for people outside the religion. Also, by the way, I should mention that there are also many verses in Quran asking implying tolerance. For example, Muslims are forbidden to insult gods of other religions. There is another verse require Muslims to show respect for the rituals of other people. Also, the famous verse “Let there be no compulsion in the religion” and other verses. But I agree there is something here that does not make sense. -- Aminz 04:58, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
This article doesn't give any mention of all about Islam and it's relationship with more recently created religions (examples include Mormonism and Scientology), does anyone have any information about this subject? The Fading Light 20:01, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
I have objected to the repeated use of non-Muslim authorities in lieu of Muslim authorities and the rejection of Muslim authorities and divergent opinions, only to be constantly threatened with blocking and banning for speaking up against the use of Friedman as the voice of Islam. I have had prominent sheikhs and jurists edited out and replaced with Friedman in preference for a rigid, biased opinion of Islamic law and traditions, refusing to take into account the traditon of diversity of thought in Islam.
I am a Muslim woman who is married to a non-Muslim man, and we were married with a nikah. I am one of many married out women, and we have existed since Islam was introduced into the Arab world. That there were Muslimas married to non-Muslim women in the Prophet's circle is well-known in history, but that fact has been buried by ultra-conservatives, and aided and abetted by those here who refuse to allow for any other viewpoint than that which places culture over Islam, for Islam, the sharia, has imposed no prohibition against Muslim women marrying out. That is a point we can discuss openly and objectively, or, some more posters can come to my page again to threaten me and/or block me, and delete this post. I'm not sure what the fear is of someone who has done what is written about in error. I don't know of any Islamic scholars here, and I'm still waiting for an explanation as to why Freidman has more say about Islam than true Islamic scholars. FOA 05:39, 30 October 2007 (UTC) FOA
Statements about forced conversion need attribution because it is a controversial topic, and because it is only one view presented. It isn't like the same view is presented by multiple scholars; it is only one. And the quote comes from Waines book, not Lewis'. Yahel Guhan 23:37, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Yahel, it's edits like these that suggest to me that a) you don't quite understand my objection, and b) you don't observe the content you are reverting closely enough. hopefully, i am wrong on both counts. with regards to a), my objection has nothing to do with whether the incidents themselves were "minor", i said they were "minority incidences" i.e. they were rare. as per WP:UNDUE, we don't overstate the incidences of forced conversion to make them look more prevelant than the facts suggest. with regards to b), you changed the attribution of a quote from Lewis to Waines. as the editor who actually inserted that content, i can guarantee you have not looked at either of the books cited. please look at both citations, and then feel free to self-revert. you said that attribution lessens POV. you're right, but where is there any POV? these are neutral uncontested facts. one doesn't say "According to Bernard Lewis, the sky is blue", because it's not contested, and it's not an opinion- and thus, no attribution is required. ITAQALLAH 23:45, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Firstly, I cannot find any reference to data source. Is this original work? Second, there are two countries presented as Muslim in Europe, Albania and Bosnia and Herzegovina (BH). BH is neither Muslim country (Muslims are relative majority), nor belongs to group where other religious groups are somehow oppressed. Third, by Constitution, Turkey is secular in public/government issues, but religions, either Islam or others, are not oppressed by state. This picture has to be changed, or removed. Plantago ( talk) 18:58, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
"600-900 Qurayza men were beheaded (except for the few who chose to convert to Islam) and their properties confiscated, and their women were taken as sex slaves, and children were slaves." The following is dubious, as it is contended as being false, and also the claim of sex slaves presents a POV that is unrealistic and dubious in itself. Faro0485 ( talk) 14:58, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
my name is siddiq.ISLAM NEED TO BE PUT BACK ON THE SIRITA MUSTAQEEM.ISLAM IS NOT BEING REPRESENTED ON THEP — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.89.115.186 ( talk) 00:03, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
Greetings: A question I've often wondered about and never got any clear answer to. If a verifiable, documented answer can be given to it, it could go into the article. This is the question: Where do non-Muslims go after death according to Islam? What happens to them at the Last Judgement? Does a righteous non-Muslim automatically go to Hell just for not being a Muslim, even though he or she may in all other respects be a good, righteous and moral person? Or can righteous non-Muslims also go to Paradise and be saved at the Last Judgement? I'm inquiring not only about scriptural authority but also about the common interpretations and answers that may have been given to the question through the history of Islam, down to this 21st century of ours. Thanks. Contact Basemetal here 20:56, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
It's been disputed. Some verses say non-Muslims can go to Heaven and others say they won't. People can't seem to agree on whether non-Muslims can be saved or not. 86.40.141.29 ( talk) 22:56, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
The christian supreme court justice of Pakistan was in office during the 1960's. It is misleading to say that could happen today. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.13.110.202 ( talk) 09:27, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
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...pending their becoming Muslim, of course.
And what they are permitted to do in that circumstance.
This seems like the appropriate article for this subject, but I'm not seeing it. So I suggest someone knowledgeable add it. Andyvphil ( talk) 18:50, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
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Will Durant, in The Story of Civilization, described this as "probably the bloodiest story in history." The above mentioned sentence is absolutely wrong. Therefore, I would like to request the editors panel, to cancel or delete the sentence permanently. Maisha82 ( talk) 21:12, 2 June 2023 (UTC)