This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 55 | ← | Archive 59 | Archive 60 | Archive 61 | Archive 62 | Archive 63 | → | Archive 65 |
Is Sol Bellel, author of knickerbockervillage.blogspot.com a reliable source? An author is trying to use this blog posting to identify the faces carved in The Forward building. Jayjg (talk) 02:40, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Hi. I recently nominated an article I've been working on for FAC and concerns have been raised about the reliability of some of the sources. While they're not known to be unreliable, Wikipedia has apparently not before validated them as reliable. I was wondering therefore if somebody could help with this process. Below are links to the "About" pages of the sources concerned (which I consulted after being directed to this article together with the fAC and the article it concerns. Cheers. Paul Largo ( talk) 18:28, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Below is the relevant information together with the sources from which it was referenced. The four references of concern are as listed above - Patient UK, Response Source, Excellence Gateway and Leisure Opportunities. Wherever possible I have added a second ref to support the information. I'm also posting these so all the facts are available here. Cheers. Paul Largo ( talk) 19:18, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
What if you have a reliable source, such as the BBC, whose reporter gets a sample of opinions relating to a story from people who would not, on their own, qualify as RS. Say, the owner of an online store who isn't a RS, but the BBC reporter thought his opinion relevant to the particular story. Can quotes from such a source be used on Wikipedia? (I mean, only as quoted by the BBC). Thanks. Fletcher ( talk) 11:24, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
per [ [2]], is it an acceptable use of a self published source to source someone's middle name if they posted a picture of their license to their own message board? since someone's middle name is uncontroversial, and they posted the information to their own website, shouldn't this should be an acceptable use of a self published source. Theserialcomma ( talk) 21:00, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
There has been some debate regarding this piece in the Washington Times. Specifically the issue revolves around using the information in the first paragraph A thousand architects and engineers want to know. The petition signatories are listed here along with full names, and license numbers in most cases. Unomi ( talk) 07:32, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm an involved editor although I've disputed this content on WP:UNDUE and WP:NOTNEWS grounds. However, it occurs to me that the claim that a thousand architects and engineers have signed a petition in support of 9/11 conspiracy theories seems like a pretty extraordinary claim to me. Per WP:V, exceptional claims require exceptional sources. I think the source fails on this point. What's more, the petition itself says " Everyone can sign the AE911Truth petition" (emphasis not mine) [7] meaning anyone can sign - even if you're not an architect or an engineer. In fact, take a look at some of the signatures. One signatory is a 15 year old student. [8] Another is a visual arts artist. [9] This guy is apparently an accountant. [10] This one works in finance. [11] This one is a musician. [12] This guy is a plumber. [13] The Washington Times apparently didn't do much fact-checking with this one. A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 00:39, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Hi everybody,
is it OK to use sources that are only preserved at google cache? The reason I ask is this edit, the source is actually here. news.mn seems to have been overhauled, and I can't locate articles from before 2010. Yaan ( talk) 12:24, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
Google cache often gets flushed out. I would also archive the reference so you still have it in case it does disappear. Betty Logan ( talk) 01:03, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Is this or this a reliable source to say in the Al-Muizz Lideenillah article that Pope Abraham moved a mountain in Cairo and when seeing this al-Muizz, a person still revered within Ismaili Islam as the 14th Imam, converted to Christianity? nableezy - 22:06, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Hi, I have presented this article as a reliable source pertaining to above mentioned disputed articles. Now, I would highly appreciate, if you kindly discuss the reference is reliable or not.-- 119.155.39.93 ( talk) 09:46, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
A dispute has a arisen on Avatar (2009 film) about the nationality of the film. The crux of the argument is whether the Avatar is American or not: Talk:Avatar_(2009_film)#Edit_request. Fox, a US based company produced the film and put up 40% of the budget. They also own the copyright. It seems convincingly American.
The problem here though is that nationality isn't consistently applied across the film artciles. A British company put up some of the budget for Avatar so it is partly produced by a British company. On the otherhand principle photography was in New Zealand and Canada, to the extent it qualifed as a NZ production and received a tax rebate.
So there is many different criteria for choosing a film's nationality. Is it American because a US company produced it? If that is so then that would make Bond films and the first Superman British, which they are not considered to be on Wikipedia. Is it copyright? Many of Stanley Kubrick's films had their copyright regsitered in Britain, but 2001 was produced and financed by MGM? Are we saying this isn't an American film at all? Is it funding? Money comes from so many different companies in many counties now that all you end up with is a paper chase.
The problem though, is because American editors outnumber editors of any other nationality there is a bias towards labelling this film American, or a film in which there was some financial input US-UK etc. Once you're outnumbered everything becomes a "consensus" or a dead horse" becaus ethey don't want to continue a discussion. What I want to know is it proper for editors to set criteria for a film's nationality? Surely any claim of a factual nature needs to be referenced so it is verifiable? We need a source to say how much money a film has grossed, so why is it not necessary to have a source that says "Avatar is American" or "Avatar is US production", or even "Avatar is US produced". I was told a source is not necessary because "you can look at the Fox logo". As I've outlined it's hardly that clear cut, and there are are many different ways to perceive a film's nationality.
By having Wikipedia set the criteria for a film's nationality it violates WP:NPOV and WP:SYNTHESIS since criteria is being put together to lead to a conclusion that is subject to the point of view of the person setting the criteria. You can source that Fox is a US company, you can source that Fox produced Avatar, but that doesn't necessarily lead to the logical conclusion that Avatar is American. I thought whole point of verifiability was such that all claims have to be sourced.
I would like to know your views as whether a film's nationality is a claim that must be established through a reliable source, and if not, what sets it apart from all other claims about films. This isn't really about whether Avatar is American or not, if sources are there saying it is I'm happy for them to go in and for Avatar to be American, but I don't like the culture of editors setting the criteria for a film's nationality and the fact that they don't think references are required for such a claim. There have been several discussions about this on Avatar's talk page but I just rounded on every time saying "Avatar is American", "it's obvious" etc. Personally I would like to see film nationalities established through verifiable sources like other factual claims instead of some concocted criteria by editors. There's no way I'm ever going to get through on the article talk page, so I would like an objective view please.
Betty Logan ( talk) 01:43, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
p.s.It seems a source has just been added for Avatar's nationality, but I still would welcome your thoughts in the context of all the film articles.
My $0.02 is that thinking that whether or not something is "American" as being a binary on-off switch (e.g. "American"<->"Not American") is not a good idea. All of the necessary particulars about how which part of the film came from there should be noted in nuance-included detail.
FWIW. Grandma Got Divorced ( talk) 05:50, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Is glbtq.com considered a reliable source? I've used them in several biographies, which is why I bring it up. They do have an editorial oversight policy, which is what I *thought* was needed, but it's come in to question recently. Thoughts? -- SatyrTN ( talk / contribs) 06:13, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
A commenter on an AFD discussion that I started ( Wikipedia: Articles for deletion/Mister (novel)) has added several sources to the article claiming that they verify the subject's notability. I, however, do not believe that they satisfy the RS standard. They appear to fall under WP: FRINGE, meaning they can't be used to verify notability. They are:
While I do not personally believe the above sources pass the RS test, I would like a second opinion on the matter, particularly in the case of [www.sezession.de]; since I can't read German, I have no way of knowing for sure whether that website is a RS or not. Stonemason89 ( talk) 21:47, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Is glbtq.com considered a reliable source? I've used them in several biographies, which is why I bring it up. They do have an editorial oversight policy, which is what I *thought* was needed, but it's come in to question recently. Thoughts? -- SatyrTN ( talk / contribs) 06:13, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
A commenter on an AFD discussion that I started ( Wikipedia: Articles for deletion/Mister (novel)) has added several sources to the article claiming that they verify the subject's notability. I, however, do not believe that they satisfy the RS standard. They appear to fall under WP: FRINGE, meaning they can't be used to verify notability. They are:
While I do not personally believe the above sources pass the RS test, I would like a second opinion on the matter, particularly in the case of [www.sezession.de]; since I can't read German, I have no way of knowing for sure whether that website is a RS or not. Stonemason89 ( talk) 21:47, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Anyone familar with the Caesar Rodney Institute? Do we consider it reliable? -- Cameron Scott ( talk) 13:26, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act#Threats_of_violence refers to College News, Rawstory.com, Gawker.com, DailyKos, RedState, and YouTube all as reliable sources for the factual information said in the section.
The material in that section may need to be rewritten, but that's another kettle of fish. At issue is whether or not these six websites are reliable sources. Thoughts? Grandma Got Divorced ( talk) 05:47, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
The article Richard Tylman contains the following statement: "While in Canada Tylman worked as an airbrush illustrator , his illustrations were used on billboards and in various magazines such as Time and Chatelaine and corporate annual reports and brochures including BCTel and Energy Mines and Resources Canada.[10][11][12][2] [13]". The sources are either primary, that is the magazines themselves, or self-published (a press release) or equivalent (claims in an interview). There also appears to be a Youtube video which has been deleted. I saw this video before deletion, and although it announces an exhibition of drawings Richard Tylman it does not mention any of the magazines above. Two editors checked the primary sources, and were not able to verify the claims. One editor was an anon ip, see [14] and [15]. The other editor was an editor in good standing, User:Victoriagirl who at that time tried to cleanup the article as it was reported on the COI board. See here for her findings, [16] and [17]. The question is - should we accept self-published sources in this case? And more broadly, what about other claims in the article that are only supported by self-published sources? Can we assume good faith and accept the self-published sources if editors repeatedly fail to verify the claims made in the article? Pantherskin ( talk) 16:14, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Would the opinion of the author of this book ( [18]) be considered notable? The author is a published academic on the subject so I have no problem with the text being used as a factual source, but as for an opinion on the subject I am not sure the notability of the author is sufficient to warrant that his opinion is notable. I cannot find any third party sources citing this book on indeed this author on this subject indicating that his opinion is notable. It meets the verifiability criteria, but I am not sure it meets the notability criteria. If his opinion is notable isn't it required that we should establish his notability through other third party sources? I am not sure either way, although I'm leaning towards the view his opinion isn't notable even though it is verifiable, so would appreciate any clarification you can give me. It's in relation to this edit: [19] Betty Logan ( talk) 22:06, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Any opinions on historyplace.com? There are hundreds of references to it on Wikipedia. Most pages are written by the site owner, who does not give much evidence of his credibility to write on such a range of topics. Given the large number of citations for a site that is at best on the edge of a reliable source, I begin to suspect linkspam.... What do others think? Bytwerk ( talk) 23:26, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
AfterElton.com is a notable gay-related news blog with a number of journalists contributing with articles on people, films, music etc. Considering it is used to support statments in BLPs, should it be considered a quality source and sufficient, for example, to demonstrate that someone identifies as LGBT? As an example, it is true that Simon Amstell is openly gay but the current statement in the BLP about him relies on two blogs of which AfterElton is the more notable. Fæ ( talk) 08:46, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
I created a list: List of Supreme Court Justices salaries (United States) based off a source at the Federal Judicial Center. They have since updated their website and the reference link is no longer valid. Worse still, I can't seem to find this information on their newly updated site. Archive.org does not have a copy, but google cache does have a copy of http://www.fjc.gov/history/home.nsf/page/salaries_scus . Is there any way to create a webcite based off of google cache...or does anyone know where I can find this information again? Smallman12q ( talk) 02:13, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
I'm wondering if Jerusalem Letter / Viewpoints can be considered a reliable source. It's a newsletter put out by the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs (JCPA), an Israeli think-tank based in Jerusalem (not to be confused with the much larger American non-profit Jewish Council for Public Affairs).
The specific article in question is this one by Amnon Lord, which is being cited in the biography of Nahum Shahaf for information on his work history. The page carries a footnote that says: "The opinions expressed by the authors of Viewpoints do not necessarily reflect those of the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs." My thinking is that this source should be treated like any other opinion editorial, but WP:RS states: "Never use self-published books, zines, websites, webforums, blogs and tweets as a source for material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the biographical material." Likewise, WP:BLP states: "Material available solely in questionable sources or sources of dubious value should not be used anywhere in the article."
So then, should this source be cited for statements of fact, cited as a statement of the author's opinion in-text (odd as it might be to state someone's opinion on what another person's work history is), or not used at all? ← George talk 23:53, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
He is a strongly built man of medium height, with graying hair combed back from his forehead. In photos he always appears stern, almost glowering, whereas in the time I spent with him he seemed to be constantly smiling, joking, having fun. Shahaf is in his middle fifties, but like many other scientists and engineers, he has the quality of seeming not quite grown up. He used to live in California, where, among other pursuits, he worked as a hang-gliding instructor. ... Before getting involved in the al-Dura case, Shahaf was known mainly as an inventor. He was only the tenth person to receive a medal from the Israeli Ministry of Science, for his work on computerized means of compressing digital video transmission.
-- GRuban ( talk) 13:52, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
Ths JCPA is led by an Israeli diplomat and many of its employees are also employed by the Israeli defence forces, so this is a clearly promotional orgenization that should primarily be used as a source for its own views, the notability of which is of course another issue entirely. Whether Nahum Shahaf should have an article on Wikipedia is also something that should be considered. -- Dailycare ( talk) 11:39, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
Tucker Max ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
This citation http://www.quotabletuckermax.com/images/license.jpg which is said to be an archive from Max's chat site, and is said to be something he put on there is being used as a support for his middle name Tibor, it could well have been put there by the subject, I don't know. The pitrure has though clearly been altered, the chat site was removed by the subject and there have been multiple removals of this name, this appears to be the only place his middle name, tibor is citable to, also in that case and there are objections, as regards the privacy of personal information this may well be an issue too, also are citations like this wikipedia reliable to use for any content http://web.archive.org/web/20070107043843/http://messageboard.tuckermax.com/showthread.php?t=12129 please comment, thanks. Off2riorob ( talk) 11:13, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Already listed earlier here: see #self published source for a person's middle name. — David Eppstein ( talk) 16:00, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
I quoted an opinion from an expert cited in The Huffington Post in the Aspartame_controversy: "Samuel S. Epstein, M.D. is Professor emeritus of Environmental & Occupational Medicine at the University of Illinois at Chicago School of Public Health; Chairman of the Cancer Prevention Coalition; and author of over 200 scientific articles and 15 books on cancer, including the groundbreaking 1979 The Politics of Cancer, and the 2009 Toxic Beauty." This was rejected by a few editors, claiming it wasn't reliable and they removed the following part:
"Cancer Prevention Expert Samuel S. Epstein stated that ERF's findings have been sharply challenged by the sweetener industry, major sweetener users, such as Coca-Cola, PepsiCo, Nestlé and Monsanto, and also by the industry oriented scientific journal Critical Reviews in Toxicology. Other critics included Donald Rumsfeld, former U.S. Defense Secretary, and earlier CEO of Searle. Epstein acknowledges the evidence on the carcinogenicity of aspartame."
They also removed a quote from The Guardian, without discussion or reason:
"In 2010, the British Food Standards Agency has launched an investigation into the artificial sweetener aspartame amid claims that some people experience side-effects after consuming the substance. [30] Immortale ( talk) 21:53, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
This comes from a semantic discussion in Falkland Islands. There is this sentence: "As Argentina considers the Falklands to be Argentine territory, they also consider the Falkland Islanders to be Argentine citizens through the system of jus soli operated under Argentine nationality law (...)", or this proposal "Under Argentine nationality law, native Falkland Islanders are also considered native argentineans, and the rest are eligible for naturalization.", which is more specific.
The discussion is no progressing since some says it isn't sourced, is POV push towards Argentina, and its based on primary sources. My opinion is that:
The sources in question are:
Those are primary sources, but official ones. And the context is the position by this same sources. In a simply logic deduction, and clarified in the sentences, it's implied that the Argentine law considers native islanders as Argentineans (full citizens, as if they born in Buenos Aires) since it considers the Falklands as part of its territory. As has been said it was an WP:OR, there is this another source, a publication about the Falkland islanders and the sovereignty dispute, from National University of the Northeast, saying:
Which constitutes a secondary, reliable source applying the previous sources in this specific context. But this is being rejected as "POV", when it shouldn't be rejected as we are needing a neutral source to expose a POV. For other information, in Argentine the Falklands are always considered as part of the territory, even if there is no sovereignty (e.g. it's specified in the last census -another official source- the exclusion of the islands -point (6)-, since it couldn't be possibly done), or this reference (quote: and dismissed the application of a man born on the Islands for Argentine citizenship on the grounds that he is in any event an Argentine) that exposes an application of this position.
Note: this is not an discussion about sovereignty, or about application, it's only about "what says Argentine law", not about if it has any implication at all (afaik, there is not a single islander who wants to be argentine)
As we need to quote an official position, which is obviously POV (and that isn't bad in this context), are this two official sources reliable to use? I don't have doubts about the secondary source, but in any case, comments for its reliability will be welcomed too. Thanks. pmt7ar ( talk) 21:12, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
Thanks Blueboar, the point about primary sources has been made on the talk page but its been interpreted as "disruptive" and arguing semantics to prevent the edit that Pmt7ar proposes. You're right about multiple polices including WP:NOR, WP:SYN, WP:AGF, WP:RS, WP:CITE and WP:NPOV. Justin the Evil Scotsman talk 11:44, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Justin, Blueboard, and Apcbg are correct here. To begin with, it's more of an WP:NOR/N issue than a WP:RS/N issue. That said, this is exactly the kind of area in which primary sources should be avoided, precisely because legal interpretations are complex. It's also a situation in which WP:NPOV demands that multiple positions be presented because with most complex legal discussions (particularly ones not settled by a court ruling) there are bound to be multiple views. And finally, Argentine nationality law is a Wikipedia article, and therefore not a Reliable Source. Jayjg (talk) 21:53, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Looks like I'm in a reliable sources dispute over the article Neglected Mario Characters. This article on a webcomic probably ought to be deleted because it only has 2 sources, the video game web site 1up.com and a page hosted on Angelfire. But in the meantime, the dispute is that 1 up.com says this webcomic started in 1998, but User:24.44.119.71 says that's an unreliable source and that this webcomic actually started in 1997. 24.44.119.71 might be right, but they don't cite a source for the 1997 date. I'd like some help figuring out what to do with this. I'm not sure whether to go with what 1up.com says even though they look unreliable, or get rid of the 1up.com source and then just have an article sourced solely to an Angelfire web site, or just delete the whole mess. Sharksaredangerous ( talk) 23:39, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Is an investigation/documentary show based on the subject and was broadcast across the globe reliable and notable? It was broadcast on NTV (Russia)
Iksanov Maxim Tahirovich. (2009-10-15) (in Russian). From Russia with Love. [Television documentary]. Russia: NTV (Russia).
I included quotes and everything, full details at Talk:Marina_Orlova#addition.-- Sinistrial ( talk) 21:00, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Helpful comments required still!-- Sinistrial ( talk) 17:30, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
Mosmof has continually made false edits to Ronn Torossian page - Please assist.
Some elements are maintaining denial of the qualification of the biographical subject for membership in Category:Confidence tricksters on the basis that he makes objects appear out of nothing. Yes you heard that right. The direct and indirect patronage he attracts for these "displays of divinity" fund aspects of his ashram and wider activities and contribute to his general notoriety. The experts Sorcar and Narasimhaiah, referenced in the article, the latter of which "held the fact that Sathya Sai Baba ignored his letters to be one of several indications that his miracles are fraudulent" found a prevailing view (from non-devotees) that the 'miracles' have a fraudulent basis. Seeking to have the two experts mentioned previously declared as reliable sources on the matter of fraudulence and confidence trickery. The following two comments are transcluded from the WP:FRINGE noticeboard. ResignBen16 ( talk) 03:46, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Is http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/aksagraph.html a usable source for casualties and foiled plots? Unomi ( talk) 19:01, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Is the JVL used as a source by other, obviously reliable sources? If so, where? Thanks. Hipocrite ( talk) 17:20, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
It is deeply problematic that JVL is seen as an RS when its figures are so unambiguously exaggerated compared to those published by organizations affiliated with Israeli intelligence. It clearly cannot be. Unomi ( talk) 19:18, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Jewish Virtual Library is not a reliable source, this has been discussed before. There are many lies and misinformation in JVL articles. -- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 19:17, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
For certain things the source is fine, but there is almost invariably a better source that can be used in its place. There are things on that site that are reliable, others that are plain bogus. But if there is anything contentious being used a better source should be found. nableezy - 21:18, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Comment: JVL is used on a vast number of articles: see here. It is an encyclopaedic source which is appropriate for WP. I disapprove of the above structuring -- I assume created by Unomi -- as it indicates a misunderstanding of how sources are used here. e.g. I haven't seen a citation that calls the BBC to have a reputation for fact checking, to the contrary even, they are winners (if I'm not mistaken) of about 4 out of 8 "Dishonest reporter of the year" awards. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 11:34, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
To repeat what I wrote once before: "JVL is a real mixed bag of material. It includes some excellent articles from respected experts alongside some appalling propagandistic junk. In my view, we can use articles on JVL if they have an author clearly identified and that author is an acknowledged authority on the subject of the article. Otherwise we should look for other sources." I have not seen anything written here to make me change that viewpoint. JVL is both valuable and dangerous; because of its ubiquitous usage in Wikipedia I think we should make a protocol for using it along the lines of what I suggested. Zero talk 13:48, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
A perfect example of unreliable propaganda at JVL is the "Myths & Facts" pages [49]. This is a load of old nonsense dating from the 1960s (but updated with more of the same). There is simply no way any of it should be used as a source in WP. Zero talk 14:00, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Reading through the discussion, I find I agree with Zero's statement: "JVL is a real mixed bag of material. It includes some excellent articles from respected experts alongside some appalling propagandistic junk. In my view, we can use articles on JVL if they have an author clearly identified and that author is an acknowledged authority on the subject of the article. Otherwise we should look for other sources." Dlabtot ( talk) 17:12, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Note: I've removed/corrected some wrong/misleading information from the article Jewish Virtual Library. Cs32en Talk to me 13:55, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
Here's one example (out of very many) why JVL can't automatically be treated as reliable: [50] (map of "Israel's boundaries" with no mention of the Gaza Strip, West Bank, or Golan Heights. Yet elsewhere [51] we find a whole page attacking Palestinian maps that don't show, or don't name, Israel. An unbiased source would treat this phenomenon of cartographic propaganda in a balanced fashion, but JVL is there to present the Israeli point of view only. Zero talk 07:16, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
Question: After reading the about us page, why are we using a source that is not authored by intelligence/security experts to cite the number of foiled terror plots? Even if the Library is RS for other things, terror/security study does not seem to be its focus/expertise. Is police or official intelligence reports not available or something? Jim101 ( talk) 13:55, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
My gut feeling: Comparing sourcing between ITIC and the Library...ITIC's study is based on:
This study is mainly based on data and information appearing in the Bulletins issued by the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (ITIC) during 2006. They were complemented by data received from the Israel Security Agency, the Operational Division of the IDF’s General Staff and from Military Intelligence. When there was a discrepancy between the sources, the data of the ITIC and the IDF’s Operational Division were usually preferred. The analyses and assessments in this study were prepared by the ITIC research staff.
While the Library's data is based on:
Israeli Foreign Ministry, Washington Post, (April 2, 2004); Prime Minister’s Office; McClatchey Washington Bureau, (January 11, 2006)
I'm no expert, but I can tell right away that ITIC actually worked with first hand information and professional analyst while the Library just compiled a bunch of hearsay data. Now, this doesn't mean the the Library's data is invalid, but IMO it should only used as a light weight counter-claim while the data from ITIC should be used as the factual data (Unless official Israeli government source is available, which then use that instead). Jim101 ( talk) 14:32, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
My two cents into this discussion: JVL appears to have two functions: A library function (deposit of research/articles from others), and a publisher of original articles.
JVL has the appearance to be driven mainly by one person. From the four new additions listed on the front page, 3 articles are written by one person (who is also the executive director of JVL), and one article is sourced to an external site (the library function of JVL). On the "About Us - Acknowledgement" section, there is a heading "our staff" which lists 'student interns' for both research and webmaster activities. On the same page, under 'Additional credits' a long list of external sources is shown (again, my interpretation, referring to the library function of JVL). On the "About Us - Board of Directors", one other member of the 3-person board, and one member of the 14-person Advisory board shares the same family name as the executive director. A 28-member Honorary board lists several US-senators and Congressmen. There is no mention of an Editorial board. On the page "About Us - Biographies", only one biography is listed; The executive director and author of 3 of the 4 recent 'original articles'.
Note that my paragraph here says nothing about the content of the site. The extensive referencing of sources used give the appearance of a scholarly approach to research. However, the impression of a single person driver, and the lack of a clear 'board of editors' would make me careful using the 'original articles' as a single reliable source. For the library function, as in every library, the original authors/sources should be checked for their reliability. Rwos ( talk) 14:41, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
I am wondering to what extent the info contained within a political candidate's current campaign website can be considered to be from a RS and therein placed on the BLP of that person here on Wikipedia? Mr.Grantevans2 ( talk) 19:08, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Treat it as a highly opinionated primary source, but one which is indubitably in possession of the facts regarding the subject. Where there is no reason to doubt, go ahead and use. Ray Talk 22:05, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Is http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/aksagraph.html a usable source for casualties and foiled plots? Unomi ( talk) 19:01, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Is the JVL used as a source by other, obviously reliable sources? If so, where? Thanks. Hipocrite ( talk) 17:20, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
It is deeply problematic that JVL is seen as an RS when its figures are so unambiguously exaggerated compared to those published by organizations affiliated with Israeli intelligence. It clearly cannot be. Unomi ( talk) 19:18, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Jewish Virtual Library is not a reliable source, this has been discussed before. There are many lies and misinformation in JVL articles. -- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 19:17, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
For certain things the source is fine, but there is almost invariably a better source that can be used in its place. There are things on that site that are reliable, others that are plain bogus. But if there is anything contentious being used a better source should be found. nableezy - 21:18, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Comment: JVL is used on a vast number of articles: see here. It is an encyclopaedic source which is appropriate for WP. I disapprove of the above structuring -- I assume created by Unomi -- as it indicates a misunderstanding of how sources are used here. e.g. I haven't seen a citation that calls the BBC to have a reputation for fact checking, to the contrary even, they are winners (if I'm not mistaken) of about 4 out of 8 "Dishonest reporter of the year" awards. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 11:34, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
To repeat what I wrote once before: "JVL is a real mixed bag of material. It includes some excellent articles from respected experts alongside some appalling propagandistic junk. In my view, we can use articles on JVL if they have an author clearly identified and that author is an acknowledged authority on the subject of the article. Otherwise we should look for other sources." I have not seen anything written here to make me change that viewpoint. JVL is both valuable and dangerous; because of its ubiquitous usage in Wikipedia I think we should make a protocol for using it along the lines of what I suggested. Zero talk 13:48, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
A perfect example of unreliable propaganda at JVL is the "Myths & Facts" pages [71]. This is a load of old nonsense dating from the 1960s (but updated with more of the same). There is simply no way any of it should be used as a source in WP. Zero talk 14:00, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Reading through the discussion, I find I agree with Zero's statement: "JVL is a real mixed bag of material. It includes some excellent articles from respected experts alongside some appalling propagandistic junk. In my view, we can use articles on JVL if they have an author clearly identified and that author is an acknowledged authority on the subject of the article. Otherwise we should look for other sources." Dlabtot ( talk) 17:12, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Note: I've removed/corrected some wrong/misleading information from the article Jewish Virtual Library. Cs32en Talk to me 13:55, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
Here's one example (out of very many) why JVL can't automatically be treated as reliable: [72] (map of "Israel's boundaries" with no mention of the Gaza Strip, West Bank, or Golan Heights. Yet elsewhere [73] we find a whole page attacking Palestinian maps that don't show, or don't name, Israel. An unbiased source would treat this phenomenon of cartographic propaganda in a balanced fashion, but JVL is there to present the Israeli point of view only. Zero talk 07:16, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
Question: After reading the about us page, why are we using a source that is not authored by intelligence/security experts to cite the number of foiled terror plots? Even if the Library is RS for other things, terror/security study does not seem to be its focus/expertise. Is police or official intelligence reports not available or something? Jim101 ( talk) 13:55, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
My gut feeling: Comparing sourcing between ITIC and the Library...ITIC's study is based on:
This study is mainly based on data and information appearing in the Bulletins issued by the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (ITIC) during 2006. They were complemented by data received from the Israel Security Agency, the Operational Division of the IDF’s General Staff and from Military Intelligence. When there was a discrepancy between the sources, the data of the ITIC and the IDF’s Operational Division were usually preferred. The analyses and assessments in this study were prepared by the ITIC research staff.
While the Library's data is based on:
Israeli Foreign Ministry, Washington Post, (April 2, 2004); Prime Minister’s Office; McClatchey Washington Bureau, (January 11, 2006)
I'm no expert, but I can tell right away that ITIC actually worked with first hand information and professional analyst while the Library just compiled a bunch of hearsay data. Now, this doesn't mean the the Library's data is invalid, but IMO it should only used as a light weight counter-claim while the data from ITIC should be used as the factual data (Unless official Israeli government source is available, which then use that instead). Jim101 ( talk) 14:32, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
My two cents into this discussion: JVL appears to have two functions: A library function (deposit of research/articles from others), and a publisher of original articles.
JVL has the appearance to be driven mainly by one person. From the four new additions listed on the front page, 3 articles are written by one person (who is also the executive director of JVL), and one article is sourced to an external site (the library function of JVL). On the "About Us - Acknowledgement" section, there is a heading "our staff" which lists 'student interns' for both research and webmaster activities. On the same page, under 'Additional credits' a long list of external sources is shown (again, my interpretation, referring to the library function of JVL). On the "About Us - Board of Directors", one other member of the 3-person board, and one member of the 14-person Advisory board shares the same family name as the executive director. A 28-member Honorary board lists several US-senators and Congressmen. There is no mention of an Editorial board. On the page "About Us - Biographies", only one biography is listed; The executive director and author of 3 of the 4 recent 'original articles'.
Note that my paragraph here says nothing about the content of the site. The extensive referencing of sources used give the appearance of a scholarly approach to research. However, the impression of a single person driver, and the lack of a clear 'board of editors' would make me careful using the 'original articles' as a single reliable source. For the library function, as in every library, the original authors/sources should be checked for their reliability. Rwos ( talk) 14:41, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
I am wondering to what extent the info contained within a political candidate's current campaign website can be considered to be from a RS and therein placed on the BLP of that person here on Wikipedia? Mr.Grantevans2 ( talk) 19:08, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Treat it as a highly opinionated primary source, but one which is indubitably in possession of the facts regarding the subject. Where there is no reason to doubt, go ahead and use. Ray Talk 22:05, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
I'm wondering if any Turkish website such as the Assembly of Turkish American Association [75] or articles from Middle East Forum such as one by Edward J. Erickson [76] or one by Gunter Lewy [77] can be disregarded as a reliable source just because of the viewpoint they support.
For example, in the second article Edward J. Erickson, Researcher, Birmingham University, retired Lieutenant-Colonel, PhD in Ottoman Military History, The Leeds University, argues the involvement of Teşkilat-i Mahsusa which is claimed to take part in the "Armenian Genocide." The same argument is also seen from another article from the source by Gunter Lewy, Professor Emeritus of Political Science, University of Massachusetts-Amherst.
There is a long list of historians who have been studying Ottoman history that supports the Turkish argument concerning the Armenian issue. Are they reliable sources or are we supposed to ignore and dismiss them as they support the Turkish argument? TheDarkLordSeth ( talk) 14:55, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
Be as clear as possible - what information is being cited to what source in what article. Use diffs and quotes liberally. Thanks. Hipocrite ( talk) 15:53, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
Let me try this one more time. Firstly, you are directed not to respond further to Anothroskon untill you have clearly responded to me. You will provide the following, or you will recieve no further assistance at this noticeboard.
If you respond again to this thread without providing those three things, I will archive this thread as not-actionable. Hipocrite ( talk) 20:44, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
There have been several articles about fraternities and sororities nominated at Good Article Nominations recently. An example is Delta Upsilon, currently under review. Many of these articles cite almost exclusively sources that are published by the fraternities themselves. I have two questions:
My view is that they are not independent third-party sources, and it is not even clear that they are reliable generally. Other views? hamiltonstone ( talk) 23:47, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
I am curious as to what my fellow editors think of Gossip Cop's reliability. Before the name "Gossip Cop" scares everyone off, it's actually a web site that's supposed to be devoted toward debunking (or confirming) reporting on celebrities. My own preliminary analysis of this source is that it might be a reliable source. According to our article, it was founded by Michael Lewittes who "served as producer of NBC's Access Hollywood, gossip columnist and news director at Us Weekly magazine, a features editor for the New York Post, and a gossip columnist at the New York Daily News." According to their about page, [83] they were "created to police the gossip industry. Launched in July 2009, it is the go-to destination for credible celebrity news. Every day the site separates fact from fiction". Would this source be acceptable for non-controversial information? A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 01:47, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
Is Gossip Cop reliable for the claim that Kesha is scheduled to perform on Saturday Night Live April 17th? The specific source is this. The article is Kesha. Note: the issue has been resolved by using other sources, however, I am curious to find out other editors' opinions of whether the source was reliable for this particular content. A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 11:32, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
Example diff. http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=The_Apprentice_%28UK_TV_series%29&action=historysubmit&diff=353595911&oldid=353590919
Source: http://twitpic.com/j20r3
I've tried to reason with one editor about sources for an edit they are constantly making regarding The Apprentice (UK TV series). The editor is using two blogged pictures, neither of which contain any explanatory text, as citation for 3 "facts". Also, constantly adding pure uncited speculation/rumour/nonsense about some chap called "Phil". I have reverted and explained this too many times and don't want to end in a 3RR edit war. Inputs from others would be most welcome. MrMarmite ( talk) 01:03, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
An editor offered a source at the
Eyes Wide Shut discussion page as emphasis for noting the use of Venetian masks in the film. I've looked over the source (
Madame Pickwick Art Blog), and I would like some input from editors here regarding it.
There doesn't appear to be any provenance for the opinions being cited, and the person doing the talking (some fellow named 'Dave'), while interesting, doesn't seem to offer any personal qualifications or notability. I am thinking we cannot use it as a source or either argument or as a reference for the article. -
Arcayne
(cast a spell) 14:15, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
I assume that we do not explicitly state the copyright holder of a certain text (e.g. a source), if the copyright of a text has not been the subject of reports in independent reliable sources. There may be cases where this is appropriate, however, I do not think that a text that is being used as a source at Jewish Virtual Library falls into that category. Maybe there should be an addition to the relevant guideline/MOS, so that actual disputes on such questions can be resolved and potential disputes avoided. See the talk page section, [85] and [86]. Cs32en Talk to me 10:07, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
Sorry I should have got to this sooner but... I agree we generally do not include the copyright owner in the article. However, these two reviews are a little different. The first [87] was written in 2007 and archived by the Internet Reviews Archive at Bowdoin College, a branch of the Association of College and Research Libraries and that a branch of the American Library Association. The ALA had copyright of her words because she wrote for them, not for Life Magazine. I make this point because Cs32en would strip her of all her credentials except for her university affiliation when in fact it is clear that she wrote for the ALA. If the ALA wanted to disavow her comments, they would say so. "The ALA takes no responsibility ..." etc etc. Same situation for the second author who writes an article here [88] clearly also for the Association of College and Research Libraries. The editor above would allow only the author of the piece, John Jaeger, to be noted, and not his affiliation with the ALA or ACRL. These journals are written by their members. The ALA or the ACRL does not write stuff itself, it is a collection of its members. I believe it appropriate in both cases that their affiliation with the ALA and the ACRL should be part of the citation. The copyright notice said it could not be quoted without appropriate note of the copyright. I would drop it if we could acknowledge that the material was written by these people as representatives of the ALA and ACRL. I hope I am being clear. It is rather late here. :) Stellarkid ( talk) 05:21, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
As I understand it, this is a wiki about Jerusalem, see: http://www.jerusalempedia.com/about.html. I first noticed it added to Dominus Flevit Church, see [89]. I believe this site rather uncontroversially fails WP:RS? If so, and if people don´t mind; can we add it to the spam-lists? How? Cheers, Huldra ( talk) 12:01, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
This passage "In 1918 the Russians attacked Poland and I volonteered to go into the army. I was only fifteen years old and my entire class had volunteered. Of course my family was not happy about that. My two older brothers were already in the army. One was an instructor in the automobile division and he taught me to drive a big truck, but in the next several months the Bolsheviks were repelled and we all went back to school." from the book 'Mystic Souls' (2002) by Lyn Harper, published by iUniverse is being used to prove that the person quoted joined the Polish army before June 1919. There are a few probloms 1.The Russians did not attack Poland untill 1919. 2.They were driven back in 1920. 3 The source is self published. I as such do not bleive the source can be used to back up the claim. Slatersteven ( talk) 13:47, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
www.apologeticsindex.org/ www.rickross.com/ www.xfamily.org/ www.cultnews.com/
In The New Religous Movements/Cults section of Wikipedia These Three Sites are Pretty Heavily linked in some Articles. Here the Issues i see,
www.apologeticsindex.org/ frankly I have looked for anything on This Guy Anton Hien, I fail to see how he is an authority on anything here. Secondly his site has a bunch of proable Copy right violations. Thirdly had any one the pages on any in this was transfered to wikipedia it would be speedy deleted as an attack page.
RickRoss.com & cultnews.com, Frankly 99% of the stuff here looks like clear copy right Violations across the board. I highly doubt such diverse news orgizations all gavve him clearance to host them. Also I have not been able to find some articles on his site that allegdly came from Big orgs like NYT and Boston Globe anywhere else in News data bases at my university.
Xfamily.org, Two Problems Again Hosting likley Copyright violations and a Number of Primary Sources used in artcles. The Family International and Related artcles are almost made entirely of off this website.
Wikipedia Policy restrict us from linking to Site with Copy Violations and also requiring that Source meet verifable, Resrticting the use of primary sources, and For Sources do be a written by a reconized authority on a subject. All these sites seem to fail at least to catagories here. Weaponbb7 ( talk) 13:44, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
Astynax if i can't duplicate a Source why should we use Rick Ross for a Convience link? I tried Duplicating a source he abscribed to the boston globe! If i can't duplicate it Why use it for convience? Secondly Will, Evertime something nutty happens in the world Media turns to Doctor Phil type character, but that does mena we would cite an episode of Larry king with Doc Phil as source on Manic Dreppesion, Bipolarism, or autism? thats the Way i see him. And Doc Phil is actual Doctor this guy as far as i can tell does not have bachelors! But Rick Ross Aside The Other two are ones i can't find anything on and what i am more concerned with... And right now link to those site could get wikipeidia introble with courts that why we have the rule better to air on the side of caution than Rather do it until we told we cant and get fined. Weaponbb7 ( talk) 18:24, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
Astynx, there's a big difference between material missing and actively changing it. For example, Ross changed a news article from " cult-deprogramming organization named Wellspring" to "cult-[recovery rehabilitation retreat] named Wellspring". He states "Typically this is done for clarification (e.g. Wellspring doesn't do "deprogramming" but is instead a licensed mental health facility providing counseling for former cult members)". [94] Whether accurate or not, this is active POV editing of sources. Regarding copyright, WP:COPYLINK nowhere says "leave it to the courts". -- Insider201283 ( talk) 21:00, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
:If you compare the two versions, you'll find that the version on rickross.com contains a fair number of POV-motivated edits to the text. The first ones of these I noticed were:
From Jayne466 [95]. By the way the reason i Didn't Notify NRM workGroup is because as far as i can tell since John Carter dropped off the map, its only Me an J466 active right now. J466 got caught in Sweeping Scientology ARBCom Case is now Forbidden to Comment on Rick Ross. Thus i didnt bother notifying them Weaponbb7 ( talk) 22:09, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
Just to clarify We agree these sources are not up to wikipolicy? Weaponbb7 ( talk) 23:05, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
Whoops should Have been more Clear, It sounds like We Argree
Anton's Hein's Apologetics index does not meet Notability and Authority to be a RS
Citing XFamily's Primary Sources is not Appropriate and probable Copy Right Violation not Appropriate to use for a Convenience Link
CultNews and Rick Ross's sites should not be used for Connivence Links due to Probable Copy Violations
Is this correct?
There has been a dispute at the Washington International University article on the use of old, archived pages from the Oregon state database on diploma mills. User:Orlady and User:TallMagic have inserted material sourced to an archived page from the Oregon database referring to information which has since been removed. The two editors have stated that they have made it clear that the information is no longer included in the database. I've never come across this situation before. Is it ok to use old, archived database pages to insert controversial information into an article, information that has since been removed from the database in question? Cla68 ( talk) 23:13, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
I had a question on how would I determine the RS of a website? There may be some question and I wanted to get ahead of the process. The site I question is www.fair.org. Please let me know where to look up their standing as a reliable source. Padillah ( talk) 18:33, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
There is no doubt that B'Tselem is an interested party in the Israel-Palestinian conflict, but WP:RS specifically allows the use of biased sources. It is a truism (noted by WP:RS) that all sources are biased regardless of their ostensible independence.
As far as I'm aware B'Tselem's facts have never been challenged as inaccurate by the opposition who certainly would attempt to delegitimize B'Tselem if they could.
And it is important to note tha B'Tselem is an Israeli human rights organization, not a Palestinian advocacy group. It is also extremely critical of human rights violations by Palestinian Authority and Hamas as well as Israel.
I understand why people would be skeptical of B'Tselem's neutrality and reliability but there is a formidable and massive opposition to its work from Israeli "public diplomacy" organizations. If there were any serious neutrality problems with its data it would have been ripped apart instantly by one of the many pro-Israel "watchdog" organizations and we would have heard about it already. If you read the criticism it is immediately striking how insubstantial the criticism is and that the criticism is from unreliable, partisan sources such as Caroline Glick and NGO Monitor; there are no real criticism of the facts that B'Tselem talks about. As B'Tselem says, the organization is transparent in its operations and relies on independent field work. The opportunity (and motivation) for falsififying data is low. Factomancer ( talk) 22:19, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
Another point is that in the context that the information from B'Tselem is being used, Palestinian freedom of movement, reports from independent sources (the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, the World Bank) support and reinforce the facts presented by B'Tselem. If anything, these reports from independent sources are more forceful and open in their message about Palestinian restrictions. Read them for yourself - UN OCHA Update, World Bank Technical Team Report on Restrictions. As you can see, these reports coincide with and support B'Tselem facts completely. The reason B'Tselem is being used is that no other organization provides the same level of detail as to what is going on in the West Bank. I could simply use the reports from the UN and the World Bank but it would be a shame to give up the details provided by B'Tselem for vague, unexplained reasons of "bias" when the organization has a reputation for accuracy and honesty. Factomancer ( talk) 22:57, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
I note that Google Scholar shows a healthy 1800+ hits with numerous cites of B'Tselem data. Similarly for Google Books. Mordechai_Bar-On writes in In pursuit of peace: a history of the Israeli peace movement
B'tselem was perhaps the most impressive project of the Israeli peace movement. It undertook its mission under heavy attach from the right, and with significant reservations from many within the Labor Party as well. ... Some on the right branded B'tselem efforts as distortions, exaggerations, and a treasonous "laundering of dirty linen in public." The professional team of investigators and analysts that B'tselem recruited and trained defended the finds of their reports, which in most cases were subsequently proven to be accurate. ... and the organization was viewed by the press as a reliable source of information.
Further in footnote 119
In one case the IDF chief of staff publicly challenged the numbers B'tselem reported on Palestinian casualties, and subsequently apologized when he learned that his figures were wrong and B'tselem's report was correct.
Unomi ( talk) 23:51, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
I made extensive use of B'Tselem to source the population figures for the Israeli settlements in the articles Israeli settlement timeline and the graph of the population data that I produced ( IsraeliSettlementGrowthLineGraph.png). To corroborate the fgures, I also used numbers from Peace Now which were highly consistent with the B'Tselem figures. There were no objections to the sourcing of this data. If B'Tselem is deemed unreliable then that article and the graph need to be changed too. Factomancer ( talk) 02:36, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
I am wondering if we couldn't handle most of that with a !disclaimer that states that the information is sourced to human rights organizations? Unomi ( talk) 05:00, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Btselem is undoubtedly Israel's most widely respected human rights organization. Of course anything potentially controversial sourced to them should clearly indicate them as the source (which goes for all NGOs). Zero talk 22:15, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
It is often claimed that there is a pro-Israel bias in BBC reports You gave me a good chuckle. Please read: Documenting BBC Documentaries, Criticism of the BBC#Middle East and Israel, Balen Report. I think that there is a difference between being anti-Israel, pro-Palestinian or anti-Palestinian and pro-Israel. I think that organizations that take sides can still be RS for many things like geography, sports, entertainment, nature, etc... but when entire political / 'controversy' articles are based solely on 'one side', then we have a problem in misleading the reader. CNN is RS, right? I will never forget how after Saddam fell, multiple testimonies came forth about how they were reporting the truth, but not all of it. -- Shuki ( talk) 20:29, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
This article from NGO Monitor (Israel's side) points out B'tselem's agenda: “acts primarily to change Israeli policy in the Occupied Territories and ensure that its government, which rules the Occupied Territories, protects the human rights of residents there and complies with its obligations under international law,” and does not report on HR violations within Israel. NGO monitor states that their analysts have demonstrated that B'selem's data is "problematic, often inconsistent, and reflects the organization’s political agenda," citing this 2007 analysis [97] NGO-monitor also accuses B'tselem of a double standard with respect to " intra-Palestinian human rights abuses" and that it "Regularly minimizes Israeli security concerns." It offers a number of articles to back its points,including an [98] [99] [100]. In a 2007 CAMERA report [101], Tamar Sternthal for CAMERA questions the accuracy of their casualty figures. Then there is the Im Tirtzu report in Israel, a very controversial report which denigrates B'tselem along other ngos as "seeking to destroy Israel's image." [102] Point being, according to some, B'Tselem has an agenda. It is a self-described agenda, limited, and "problematic" according to the other side. I would say that they can certainly be used, but with the caveat that if there is disagreement on the other side, that both sides would have their story told, since there are two sides to this story. If there are any questions with respect to the data, those questions should be aired. There should be no attempt to only present the statistics of B'Tselem in relation to Israel, especially if another source is available and particularly if that other source disagrees with B'Tselem. Stellarkid ( talk) 04:13, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
I need opinions on two sources being used regarding mistakes in the book Angels & Demons: Is the content of Book Mistakes user-generated? Second, what is the reliability of CR Publications for that webpage's material on the same topic? Nightscream ( talk) 00:53, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
The video quickly went viral and has been viewed 6 million times.
The article I wish to use it for is McDonald's rap, an article that I created but was deleted on the grounds that the topic wasn't notable. I'd like to use this source to help establish the topic's notability in hopes that I can at some point rescue the article. Knowyourmeme.com was named by Time Magazine as one of the "50 Best Websites 2009" [103] and Maximum PC magazine named it as one of "50 Kick-Ass Websites You Need to Know About" [104]. It has also received favorable press coverage by The Guardian [105] and Winnipeg Free Press [106]. A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 00:12, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
Is Spinwatch a reliable source? There is a question at the English Defense League (EDL) whether this article can be used as a source for Robert Spencer's relationship with the EDL. The Four Deuces ( talk) 15:17, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
The source claims that Tannu Tuva was an "independent state", and that its soldiers engaged in hostilities, from source: "soldiers from that independent country fought on the Soviet-German front in 1943-44". If you look at the entries and sources in the talk pages, and the Tannu Tuva article ( Tuvan People's Republic), its almost impossible to conclude that Tannu Tuva was an "independent state". The source also states that Tannu Tuva is also "still at war with Germany" into and past the year 1944. Tannu Tuva was annexed on 11 October 1944 by the Soviet Union, and the area became the Tuvan Autonomous Oblast. I believe the source is not reliable due to all the evident misinformation contained within it, and things that are blatantly not true. Lt.Specht ( talk) 23:07, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
Minogue stated on her official Twitter page that the album will be released in the Summer of 2010 [1] and that she is also working with Fraser T. Smith and Tim Rice-Oxley. [2] On 24 February 2010 Minogue also revealed that she was working with Cutfather, Lucas Secon, Damon Sharpe, [3] Starsmith and Nervo. [4] On 12 March 2010 Minogue hinted on her Twitter page that a song produced by Stuart Price would be released to the public in June 2010. [5]
http://twitter.com/kylieminogue/status/9003792038
http://twitter.com/kylieminogue/status/9026328343
http://twitter.com/kylieminogue/status/9572763707
http://twitter.com/kylieminogue/status/9572927971
http://twitter.com/kylieminogue/status/10371400191
five twitter posts and..Kylie dot com another self publisher citation.
On 3 June 2010 she will be hosting the inaugural AmfAR "Inspiration Gala" at the New York Public Library honouring Jean Paul Gaultier for his lifelong contribution to men's fashion and the fight against AIDS. [6]
This is all self published, five twitter posts and an upcoming appointment announcement on her official website, I removed it and quoted http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources#Self-published_sources_.28online_and_paper.29 but it has been replaced and the editor seems to be saying the information is not available elsewhere so it is OK to use, is this content cited correctly? Off2riorob ( talk) 18:15, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
Is that the way forward that we are going to add to wikipedia whatever a subject puts on his twitter page. really? One day they add they are working with jonny and we add it and tomorrow it turns out they aren't working with jonny any mopre and we then add that to the article and sit waiting to update our BLP articles with the fabulous valuable self published tweets? If this is true it is a sad day for the wikipedia , sad indeed. Off2riorob ( talk) 19:39, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
I was redirected here for asking a question at the Help desk. My question, is Ancestry.com a reliable source? The reason I ask is because I've been adding the etmology on surname pages here on Wikipedia. Someone has suggested to me to simply source the link on an Ancestry.com surname meaning page which is Dictionary of American Family Names, Oxford University Press (Irish Names, French Names, Spanish Names, etc.). Although, I could simply reference another source, it's difficult to trust many websites. I welcome any advice on this matter, 71.240.162.16 ( talk) 04:50, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
{{
cite web}}
: External link in |title=
(
help)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 55 | ← | Archive 59 | Archive 60 | Archive 61 | Archive 62 | Archive 63 | → | Archive 65 |
Is Sol Bellel, author of knickerbockervillage.blogspot.com a reliable source? An author is trying to use this blog posting to identify the faces carved in The Forward building. Jayjg (talk) 02:40, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Hi. I recently nominated an article I've been working on for FAC and concerns have been raised about the reliability of some of the sources. While they're not known to be unreliable, Wikipedia has apparently not before validated them as reliable. I was wondering therefore if somebody could help with this process. Below are links to the "About" pages of the sources concerned (which I consulted after being directed to this article together with the fAC and the article it concerns. Cheers. Paul Largo ( talk) 18:28, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Below is the relevant information together with the sources from which it was referenced. The four references of concern are as listed above - Patient UK, Response Source, Excellence Gateway and Leisure Opportunities. Wherever possible I have added a second ref to support the information. I'm also posting these so all the facts are available here. Cheers. Paul Largo ( talk) 19:18, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
What if you have a reliable source, such as the BBC, whose reporter gets a sample of opinions relating to a story from people who would not, on their own, qualify as RS. Say, the owner of an online store who isn't a RS, but the BBC reporter thought his opinion relevant to the particular story. Can quotes from such a source be used on Wikipedia? (I mean, only as quoted by the BBC). Thanks. Fletcher ( talk) 11:24, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
per [ [2]], is it an acceptable use of a self published source to source someone's middle name if they posted a picture of their license to their own message board? since someone's middle name is uncontroversial, and they posted the information to their own website, shouldn't this should be an acceptable use of a self published source. Theserialcomma ( talk) 21:00, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
There has been some debate regarding this piece in the Washington Times. Specifically the issue revolves around using the information in the first paragraph A thousand architects and engineers want to know. The petition signatories are listed here along with full names, and license numbers in most cases. Unomi ( talk) 07:32, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm an involved editor although I've disputed this content on WP:UNDUE and WP:NOTNEWS grounds. However, it occurs to me that the claim that a thousand architects and engineers have signed a petition in support of 9/11 conspiracy theories seems like a pretty extraordinary claim to me. Per WP:V, exceptional claims require exceptional sources. I think the source fails on this point. What's more, the petition itself says " Everyone can sign the AE911Truth petition" (emphasis not mine) [7] meaning anyone can sign - even if you're not an architect or an engineer. In fact, take a look at some of the signatures. One signatory is a 15 year old student. [8] Another is a visual arts artist. [9] This guy is apparently an accountant. [10] This one works in finance. [11] This one is a musician. [12] This guy is a plumber. [13] The Washington Times apparently didn't do much fact-checking with this one. A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 00:39, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Hi everybody,
is it OK to use sources that are only preserved at google cache? The reason I ask is this edit, the source is actually here. news.mn seems to have been overhauled, and I can't locate articles from before 2010. Yaan ( talk) 12:24, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
Google cache often gets flushed out. I would also archive the reference so you still have it in case it does disappear. Betty Logan ( talk) 01:03, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Is this or this a reliable source to say in the Al-Muizz Lideenillah article that Pope Abraham moved a mountain in Cairo and when seeing this al-Muizz, a person still revered within Ismaili Islam as the 14th Imam, converted to Christianity? nableezy - 22:06, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Hi, I have presented this article as a reliable source pertaining to above mentioned disputed articles. Now, I would highly appreciate, if you kindly discuss the reference is reliable or not.-- 119.155.39.93 ( talk) 09:46, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
A dispute has a arisen on Avatar (2009 film) about the nationality of the film. The crux of the argument is whether the Avatar is American or not: Talk:Avatar_(2009_film)#Edit_request. Fox, a US based company produced the film and put up 40% of the budget. They also own the copyright. It seems convincingly American.
The problem here though is that nationality isn't consistently applied across the film artciles. A British company put up some of the budget for Avatar so it is partly produced by a British company. On the otherhand principle photography was in New Zealand and Canada, to the extent it qualifed as a NZ production and received a tax rebate.
So there is many different criteria for choosing a film's nationality. Is it American because a US company produced it? If that is so then that would make Bond films and the first Superman British, which they are not considered to be on Wikipedia. Is it copyright? Many of Stanley Kubrick's films had their copyright regsitered in Britain, but 2001 was produced and financed by MGM? Are we saying this isn't an American film at all? Is it funding? Money comes from so many different companies in many counties now that all you end up with is a paper chase.
The problem though, is because American editors outnumber editors of any other nationality there is a bias towards labelling this film American, or a film in which there was some financial input US-UK etc. Once you're outnumbered everything becomes a "consensus" or a dead horse" becaus ethey don't want to continue a discussion. What I want to know is it proper for editors to set criteria for a film's nationality? Surely any claim of a factual nature needs to be referenced so it is verifiable? We need a source to say how much money a film has grossed, so why is it not necessary to have a source that says "Avatar is American" or "Avatar is US production", or even "Avatar is US produced". I was told a source is not necessary because "you can look at the Fox logo". As I've outlined it's hardly that clear cut, and there are are many different ways to perceive a film's nationality.
By having Wikipedia set the criteria for a film's nationality it violates WP:NPOV and WP:SYNTHESIS since criteria is being put together to lead to a conclusion that is subject to the point of view of the person setting the criteria. You can source that Fox is a US company, you can source that Fox produced Avatar, but that doesn't necessarily lead to the logical conclusion that Avatar is American. I thought whole point of verifiability was such that all claims have to be sourced.
I would like to know your views as whether a film's nationality is a claim that must be established through a reliable source, and if not, what sets it apart from all other claims about films. This isn't really about whether Avatar is American or not, if sources are there saying it is I'm happy for them to go in and for Avatar to be American, but I don't like the culture of editors setting the criteria for a film's nationality and the fact that they don't think references are required for such a claim. There have been several discussions about this on Avatar's talk page but I just rounded on every time saying "Avatar is American", "it's obvious" etc. Personally I would like to see film nationalities established through verifiable sources like other factual claims instead of some concocted criteria by editors. There's no way I'm ever going to get through on the article talk page, so I would like an objective view please.
Betty Logan ( talk) 01:43, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
p.s.It seems a source has just been added for Avatar's nationality, but I still would welcome your thoughts in the context of all the film articles.
My $0.02 is that thinking that whether or not something is "American" as being a binary on-off switch (e.g. "American"<->"Not American") is not a good idea. All of the necessary particulars about how which part of the film came from there should be noted in nuance-included detail.
FWIW. Grandma Got Divorced ( talk) 05:50, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Is glbtq.com considered a reliable source? I've used them in several biographies, which is why I bring it up. They do have an editorial oversight policy, which is what I *thought* was needed, but it's come in to question recently. Thoughts? -- SatyrTN ( talk / contribs) 06:13, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
A commenter on an AFD discussion that I started ( Wikipedia: Articles for deletion/Mister (novel)) has added several sources to the article claiming that they verify the subject's notability. I, however, do not believe that they satisfy the RS standard. They appear to fall under WP: FRINGE, meaning they can't be used to verify notability. They are:
While I do not personally believe the above sources pass the RS test, I would like a second opinion on the matter, particularly in the case of [www.sezession.de]; since I can't read German, I have no way of knowing for sure whether that website is a RS or not. Stonemason89 ( talk) 21:47, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Is glbtq.com considered a reliable source? I've used them in several biographies, which is why I bring it up. They do have an editorial oversight policy, which is what I *thought* was needed, but it's come in to question recently. Thoughts? -- SatyrTN ( talk / contribs) 06:13, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
A commenter on an AFD discussion that I started ( Wikipedia: Articles for deletion/Mister (novel)) has added several sources to the article claiming that they verify the subject's notability. I, however, do not believe that they satisfy the RS standard. They appear to fall under WP: FRINGE, meaning they can't be used to verify notability. They are:
While I do not personally believe the above sources pass the RS test, I would like a second opinion on the matter, particularly in the case of [www.sezession.de]; since I can't read German, I have no way of knowing for sure whether that website is a RS or not. Stonemason89 ( talk) 21:47, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Anyone familar with the Caesar Rodney Institute? Do we consider it reliable? -- Cameron Scott ( talk) 13:26, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act#Threats_of_violence refers to College News, Rawstory.com, Gawker.com, DailyKos, RedState, and YouTube all as reliable sources for the factual information said in the section.
The material in that section may need to be rewritten, but that's another kettle of fish. At issue is whether or not these six websites are reliable sources. Thoughts? Grandma Got Divorced ( talk) 05:47, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
The article Richard Tylman contains the following statement: "While in Canada Tylman worked as an airbrush illustrator , his illustrations were used on billboards and in various magazines such as Time and Chatelaine and corporate annual reports and brochures including BCTel and Energy Mines and Resources Canada.[10][11][12][2] [13]". The sources are either primary, that is the magazines themselves, or self-published (a press release) or equivalent (claims in an interview). There also appears to be a Youtube video which has been deleted. I saw this video before deletion, and although it announces an exhibition of drawings Richard Tylman it does not mention any of the magazines above. Two editors checked the primary sources, and were not able to verify the claims. One editor was an anon ip, see [14] and [15]. The other editor was an editor in good standing, User:Victoriagirl who at that time tried to cleanup the article as it was reported on the COI board. See here for her findings, [16] and [17]. The question is - should we accept self-published sources in this case? And more broadly, what about other claims in the article that are only supported by self-published sources? Can we assume good faith and accept the self-published sources if editors repeatedly fail to verify the claims made in the article? Pantherskin ( talk) 16:14, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Would the opinion of the author of this book ( [18]) be considered notable? The author is a published academic on the subject so I have no problem with the text being used as a factual source, but as for an opinion on the subject I am not sure the notability of the author is sufficient to warrant that his opinion is notable. I cannot find any third party sources citing this book on indeed this author on this subject indicating that his opinion is notable. It meets the verifiability criteria, but I am not sure it meets the notability criteria. If his opinion is notable isn't it required that we should establish his notability through other third party sources? I am not sure either way, although I'm leaning towards the view his opinion isn't notable even though it is verifiable, so would appreciate any clarification you can give me. It's in relation to this edit: [19] Betty Logan ( talk) 22:06, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Any opinions on historyplace.com? There are hundreds of references to it on Wikipedia. Most pages are written by the site owner, who does not give much evidence of his credibility to write on such a range of topics. Given the large number of citations for a site that is at best on the edge of a reliable source, I begin to suspect linkspam.... What do others think? Bytwerk ( talk) 23:26, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
AfterElton.com is a notable gay-related news blog with a number of journalists contributing with articles on people, films, music etc. Considering it is used to support statments in BLPs, should it be considered a quality source and sufficient, for example, to demonstrate that someone identifies as LGBT? As an example, it is true that Simon Amstell is openly gay but the current statement in the BLP about him relies on two blogs of which AfterElton is the more notable. Fæ ( talk) 08:46, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
I created a list: List of Supreme Court Justices salaries (United States) based off a source at the Federal Judicial Center. They have since updated their website and the reference link is no longer valid. Worse still, I can't seem to find this information on their newly updated site. Archive.org does not have a copy, but google cache does have a copy of http://www.fjc.gov/history/home.nsf/page/salaries_scus . Is there any way to create a webcite based off of google cache...or does anyone know where I can find this information again? Smallman12q ( talk) 02:13, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
I'm wondering if Jerusalem Letter / Viewpoints can be considered a reliable source. It's a newsletter put out by the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs (JCPA), an Israeli think-tank based in Jerusalem (not to be confused with the much larger American non-profit Jewish Council for Public Affairs).
The specific article in question is this one by Amnon Lord, which is being cited in the biography of Nahum Shahaf for information on his work history. The page carries a footnote that says: "The opinions expressed by the authors of Viewpoints do not necessarily reflect those of the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs." My thinking is that this source should be treated like any other opinion editorial, but WP:RS states: "Never use self-published books, zines, websites, webforums, blogs and tweets as a source for material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the biographical material." Likewise, WP:BLP states: "Material available solely in questionable sources or sources of dubious value should not be used anywhere in the article."
So then, should this source be cited for statements of fact, cited as a statement of the author's opinion in-text (odd as it might be to state someone's opinion on what another person's work history is), or not used at all? ← George talk 23:53, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
He is a strongly built man of medium height, with graying hair combed back from his forehead. In photos he always appears stern, almost glowering, whereas in the time I spent with him he seemed to be constantly smiling, joking, having fun. Shahaf is in his middle fifties, but like many other scientists and engineers, he has the quality of seeming not quite grown up. He used to live in California, where, among other pursuits, he worked as a hang-gliding instructor. ... Before getting involved in the al-Dura case, Shahaf was known mainly as an inventor. He was only the tenth person to receive a medal from the Israeli Ministry of Science, for his work on computerized means of compressing digital video transmission.
-- GRuban ( talk) 13:52, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
Ths JCPA is led by an Israeli diplomat and many of its employees are also employed by the Israeli defence forces, so this is a clearly promotional orgenization that should primarily be used as a source for its own views, the notability of which is of course another issue entirely. Whether Nahum Shahaf should have an article on Wikipedia is also something that should be considered. -- Dailycare ( talk) 11:39, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
Tucker Max ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
This citation http://www.quotabletuckermax.com/images/license.jpg which is said to be an archive from Max's chat site, and is said to be something he put on there is being used as a support for his middle name Tibor, it could well have been put there by the subject, I don't know. The pitrure has though clearly been altered, the chat site was removed by the subject and there have been multiple removals of this name, this appears to be the only place his middle name, tibor is citable to, also in that case and there are objections, as regards the privacy of personal information this may well be an issue too, also are citations like this wikipedia reliable to use for any content http://web.archive.org/web/20070107043843/http://messageboard.tuckermax.com/showthread.php?t=12129 please comment, thanks. Off2riorob ( talk) 11:13, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Already listed earlier here: see #self published source for a person's middle name. — David Eppstein ( talk) 16:00, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
I quoted an opinion from an expert cited in The Huffington Post in the Aspartame_controversy: "Samuel S. Epstein, M.D. is Professor emeritus of Environmental & Occupational Medicine at the University of Illinois at Chicago School of Public Health; Chairman of the Cancer Prevention Coalition; and author of over 200 scientific articles and 15 books on cancer, including the groundbreaking 1979 The Politics of Cancer, and the 2009 Toxic Beauty." This was rejected by a few editors, claiming it wasn't reliable and they removed the following part:
"Cancer Prevention Expert Samuel S. Epstein stated that ERF's findings have been sharply challenged by the sweetener industry, major sweetener users, such as Coca-Cola, PepsiCo, Nestlé and Monsanto, and also by the industry oriented scientific journal Critical Reviews in Toxicology. Other critics included Donald Rumsfeld, former U.S. Defense Secretary, and earlier CEO of Searle. Epstein acknowledges the evidence on the carcinogenicity of aspartame."
They also removed a quote from The Guardian, without discussion or reason:
"In 2010, the British Food Standards Agency has launched an investigation into the artificial sweetener aspartame amid claims that some people experience side-effects after consuming the substance. [30] Immortale ( talk) 21:53, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
This comes from a semantic discussion in Falkland Islands. There is this sentence: "As Argentina considers the Falklands to be Argentine territory, they also consider the Falkland Islanders to be Argentine citizens through the system of jus soli operated under Argentine nationality law (...)", or this proposal "Under Argentine nationality law, native Falkland Islanders are also considered native argentineans, and the rest are eligible for naturalization.", which is more specific.
The discussion is no progressing since some says it isn't sourced, is POV push towards Argentina, and its based on primary sources. My opinion is that:
The sources in question are:
Those are primary sources, but official ones. And the context is the position by this same sources. In a simply logic deduction, and clarified in the sentences, it's implied that the Argentine law considers native islanders as Argentineans (full citizens, as if they born in Buenos Aires) since it considers the Falklands as part of its territory. As has been said it was an WP:OR, there is this another source, a publication about the Falkland islanders and the sovereignty dispute, from National University of the Northeast, saying:
Which constitutes a secondary, reliable source applying the previous sources in this specific context. But this is being rejected as "POV", when it shouldn't be rejected as we are needing a neutral source to expose a POV. For other information, in Argentine the Falklands are always considered as part of the territory, even if there is no sovereignty (e.g. it's specified in the last census -another official source- the exclusion of the islands -point (6)-, since it couldn't be possibly done), or this reference (quote: and dismissed the application of a man born on the Islands for Argentine citizenship on the grounds that he is in any event an Argentine) that exposes an application of this position.
Note: this is not an discussion about sovereignty, or about application, it's only about "what says Argentine law", not about if it has any implication at all (afaik, there is not a single islander who wants to be argentine)
As we need to quote an official position, which is obviously POV (and that isn't bad in this context), are this two official sources reliable to use? I don't have doubts about the secondary source, but in any case, comments for its reliability will be welcomed too. Thanks. pmt7ar ( talk) 21:12, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
Thanks Blueboar, the point about primary sources has been made on the talk page but its been interpreted as "disruptive" and arguing semantics to prevent the edit that Pmt7ar proposes. You're right about multiple polices including WP:NOR, WP:SYN, WP:AGF, WP:RS, WP:CITE and WP:NPOV. Justin the Evil Scotsman talk 11:44, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Justin, Blueboard, and Apcbg are correct here. To begin with, it's more of an WP:NOR/N issue than a WP:RS/N issue. That said, this is exactly the kind of area in which primary sources should be avoided, precisely because legal interpretations are complex. It's also a situation in which WP:NPOV demands that multiple positions be presented because with most complex legal discussions (particularly ones not settled by a court ruling) there are bound to be multiple views. And finally, Argentine nationality law is a Wikipedia article, and therefore not a Reliable Source. Jayjg (talk) 21:53, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Looks like I'm in a reliable sources dispute over the article Neglected Mario Characters. This article on a webcomic probably ought to be deleted because it only has 2 sources, the video game web site 1up.com and a page hosted on Angelfire. But in the meantime, the dispute is that 1 up.com says this webcomic started in 1998, but User:24.44.119.71 says that's an unreliable source and that this webcomic actually started in 1997. 24.44.119.71 might be right, but they don't cite a source for the 1997 date. I'd like some help figuring out what to do with this. I'm not sure whether to go with what 1up.com says even though they look unreliable, or get rid of the 1up.com source and then just have an article sourced solely to an Angelfire web site, or just delete the whole mess. Sharksaredangerous ( talk) 23:39, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Is an investigation/documentary show based on the subject and was broadcast across the globe reliable and notable? It was broadcast on NTV (Russia)
Iksanov Maxim Tahirovich. (2009-10-15) (in Russian). From Russia with Love. [Television documentary]. Russia: NTV (Russia).
I included quotes and everything, full details at Talk:Marina_Orlova#addition.-- Sinistrial ( talk) 21:00, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Helpful comments required still!-- Sinistrial ( talk) 17:30, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
Mosmof has continually made false edits to Ronn Torossian page - Please assist.
Some elements are maintaining denial of the qualification of the biographical subject for membership in Category:Confidence tricksters on the basis that he makes objects appear out of nothing. Yes you heard that right. The direct and indirect patronage he attracts for these "displays of divinity" fund aspects of his ashram and wider activities and contribute to his general notoriety. The experts Sorcar and Narasimhaiah, referenced in the article, the latter of which "held the fact that Sathya Sai Baba ignored his letters to be one of several indications that his miracles are fraudulent" found a prevailing view (from non-devotees) that the 'miracles' have a fraudulent basis. Seeking to have the two experts mentioned previously declared as reliable sources on the matter of fraudulence and confidence trickery. The following two comments are transcluded from the WP:FRINGE noticeboard. ResignBen16 ( talk) 03:46, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Is http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/aksagraph.html a usable source for casualties and foiled plots? Unomi ( talk) 19:01, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Is the JVL used as a source by other, obviously reliable sources? If so, where? Thanks. Hipocrite ( talk) 17:20, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
It is deeply problematic that JVL is seen as an RS when its figures are so unambiguously exaggerated compared to those published by organizations affiliated with Israeli intelligence. It clearly cannot be. Unomi ( talk) 19:18, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Jewish Virtual Library is not a reliable source, this has been discussed before. There are many lies and misinformation in JVL articles. -- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 19:17, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
For certain things the source is fine, but there is almost invariably a better source that can be used in its place. There are things on that site that are reliable, others that are plain bogus. But if there is anything contentious being used a better source should be found. nableezy - 21:18, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Comment: JVL is used on a vast number of articles: see here. It is an encyclopaedic source which is appropriate for WP. I disapprove of the above structuring -- I assume created by Unomi -- as it indicates a misunderstanding of how sources are used here. e.g. I haven't seen a citation that calls the BBC to have a reputation for fact checking, to the contrary even, they are winners (if I'm not mistaken) of about 4 out of 8 "Dishonest reporter of the year" awards. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 11:34, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
To repeat what I wrote once before: "JVL is a real mixed bag of material. It includes some excellent articles from respected experts alongside some appalling propagandistic junk. In my view, we can use articles on JVL if they have an author clearly identified and that author is an acknowledged authority on the subject of the article. Otherwise we should look for other sources." I have not seen anything written here to make me change that viewpoint. JVL is both valuable and dangerous; because of its ubiquitous usage in Wikipedia I think we should make a protocol for using it along the lines of what I suggested. Zero talk 13:48, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
A perfect example of unreliable propaganda at JVL is the "Myths & Facts" pages [49]. This is a load of old nonsense dating from the 1960s (but updated with more of the same). There is simply no way any of it should be used as a source in WP. Zero talk 14:00, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Reading through the discussion, I find I agree with Zero's statement: "JVL is a real mixed bag of material. It includes some excellent articles from respected experts alongside some appalling propagandistic junk. In my view, we can use articles on JVL if they have an author clearly identified and that author is an acknowledged authority on the subject of the article. Otherwise we should look for other sources." Dlabtot ( talk) 17:12, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Note: I've removed/corrected some wrong/misleading information from the article Jewish Virtual Library. Cs32en Talk to me 13:55, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
Here's one example (out of very many) why JVL can't automatically be treated as reliable: [50] (map of "Israel's boundaries" with no mention of the Gaza Strip, West Bank, or Golan Heights. Yet elsewhere [51] we find a whole page attacking Palestinian maps that don't show, or don't name, Israel. An unbiased source would treat this phenomenon of cartographic propaganda in a balanced fashion, but JVL is there to present the Israeli point of view only. Zero talk 07:16, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
Question: After reading the about us page, why are we using a source that is not authored by intelligence/security experts to cite the number of foiled terror plots? Even if the Library is RS for other things, terror/security study does not seem to be its focus/expertise. Is police or official intelligence reports not available or something? Jim101 ( talk) 13:55, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
My gut feeling: Comparing sourcing between ITIC and the Library...ITIC's study is based on:
This study is mainly based on data and information appearing in the Bulletins issued by the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (ITIC) during 2006. They were complemented by data received from the Israel Security Agency, the Operational Division of the IDF’s General Staff and from Military Intelligence. When there was a discrepancy between the sources, the data of the ITIC and the IDF’s Operational Division were usually preferred. The analyses and assessments in this study were prepared by the ITIC research staff.
While the Library's data is based on:
Israeli Foreign Ministry, Washington Post, (April 2, 2004); Prime Minister’s Office; McClatchey Washington Bureau, (January 11, 2006)
I'm no expert, but I can tell right away that ITIC actually worked with first hand information and professional analyst while the Library just compiled a bunch of hearsay data. Now, this doesn't mean the the Library's data is invalid, but IMO it should only used as a light weight counter-claim while the data from ITIC should be used as the factual data (Unless official Israeli government source is available, which then use that instead). Jim101 ( talk) 14:32, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
My two cents into this discussion: JVL appears to have two functions: A library function (deposit of research/articles from others), and a publisher of original articles.
JVL has the appearance to be driven mainly by one person. From the four new additions listed on the front page, 3 articles are written by one person (who is also the executive director of JVL), and one article is sourced to an external site (the library function of JVL). On the "About Us - Acknowledgement" section, there is a heading "our staff" which lists 'student interns' for both research and webmaster activities. On the same page, under 'Additional credits' a long list of external sources is shown (again, my interpretation, referring to the library function of JVL). On the "About Us - Board of Directors", one other member of the 3-person board, and one member of the 14-person Advisory board shares the same family name as the executive director. A 28-member Honorary board lists several US-senators and Congressmen. There is no mention of an Editorial board. On the page "About Us - Biographies", only one biography is listed; The executive director and author of 3 of the 4 recent 'original articles'.
Note that my paragraph here says nothing about the content of the site. The extensive referencing of sources used give the appearance of a scholarly approach to research. However, the impression of a single person driver, and the lack of a clear 'board of editors' would make me careful using the 'original articles' as a single reliable source. For the library function, as in every library, the original authors/sources should be checked for their reliability. Rwos ( talk) 14:41, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
I am wondering to what extent the info contained within a political candidate's current campaign website can be considered to be from a RS and therein placed on the BLP of that person here on Wikipedia? Mr.Grantevans2 ( talk) 19:08, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Treat it as a highly opinionated primary source, but one which is indubitably in possession of the facts regarding the subject. Where there is no reason to doubt, go ahead and use. Ray Talk 22:05, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Is http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/aksagraph.html a usable source for casualties and foiled plots? Unomi ( talk) 19:01, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Is the JVL used as a source by other, obviously reliable sources? If so, where? Thanks. Hipocrite ( talk) 17:20, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
It is deeply problematic that JVL is seen as an RS when its figures are so unambiguously exaggerated compared to those published by organizations affiliated with Israeli intelligence. It clearly cannot be. Unomi ( talk) 19:18, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Jewish Virtual Library is not a reliable source, this has been discussed before. There are many lies and misinformation in JVL articles. -- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 19:17, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
For certain things the source is fine, but there is almost invariably a better source that can be used in its place. There are things on that site that are reliable, others that are plain bogus. But if there is anything contentious being used a better source should be found. nableezy - 21:18, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Comment: JVL is used on a vast number of articles: see here. It is an encyclopaedic source which is appropriate for WP. I disapprove of the above structuring -- I assume created by Unomi -- as it indicates a misunderstanding of how sources are used here. e.g. I haven't seen a citation that calls the BBC to have a reputation for fact checking, to the contrary even, they are winners (if I'm not mistaken) of about 4 out of 8 "Dishonest reporter of the year" awards. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 11:34, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
To repeat what I wrote once before: "JVL is a real mixed bag of material. It includes some excellent articles from respected experts alongside some appalling propagandistic junk. In my view, we can use articles on JVL if they have an author clearly identified and that author is an acknowledged authority on the subject of the article. Otherwise we should look for other sources." I have not seen anything written here to make me change that viewpoint. JVL is both valuable and dangerous; because of its ubiquitous usage in Wikipedia I think we should make a protocol for using it along the lines of what I suggested. Zero talk 13:48, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
A perfect example of unreliable propaganda at JVL is the "Myths & Facts" pages [71]. This is a load of old nonsense dating from the 1960s (but updated with more of the same). There is simply no way any of it should be used as a source in WP. Zero talk 14:00, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Reading through the discussion, I find I agree with Zero's statement: "JVL is a real mixed bag of material. It includes some excellent articles from respected experts alongside some appalling propagandistic junk. In my view, we can use articles on JVL if they have an author clearly identified and that author is an acknowledged authority on the subject of the article. Otherwise we should look for other sources." Dlabtot ( talk) 17:12, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Note: I've removed/corrected some wrong/misleading information from the article Jewish Virtual Library. Cs32en Talk to me 13:55, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
Here's one example (out of very many) why JVL can't automatically be treated as reliable: [72] (map of "Israel's boundaries" with no mention of the Gaza Strip, West Bank, or Golan Heights. Yet elsewhere [73] we find a whole page attacking Palestinian maps that don't show, or don't name, Israel. An unbiased source would treat this phenomenon of cartographic propaganda in a balanced fashion, but JVL is there to present the Israeli point of view only. Zero talk 07:16, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
Question: After reading the about us page, why are we using a source that is not authored by intelligence/security experts to cite the number of foiled terror plots? Even if the Library is RS for other things, terror/security study does not seem to be its focus/expertise. Is police or official intelligence reports not available or something? Jim101 ( talk) 13:55, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
My gut feeling: Comparing sourcing between ITIC and the Library...ITIC's study is based on:
This study is mainly based on data and information appearing in the Bulletins issued by the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (ITIC) during 2006. They were complemented by data received from the Israel Security Agency, the Operational Division of the IDF’s General Staff and from Military Intelligence. When there was a discrepancy between the sources, the data of the ITIC and the IDF’s Operational Division were usually preferred. The analyses and assessments in this study were prepared by the ITIC research staff.
While the Library's data is based on:
Israeli Foreign Ministry, Washington Post, (April 2, 2004); Prime Minister’s Office; McClatchey Washington Bureau, (January 11, 2006)
I'm no expert, but I can tell right away that ITIC actually worked with first hand information and professional analyst while the Library just compiled a bunch of hearsay data. Now, this doesn't mean the the Library's data is invalid, but IMO it should only used as a light weight counter-claim while the data from ITIC should be used as the factual data (Unless official Israeli government source is available, which then use that instead). Jim101 ( talk) 14:32, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
My two cents into this discussion: JVL appears to have two functions: A library function (deposit of research/articles from others), and a publisher of original articles.
JVL has the appearance to be driven mainly by one person. From the four new additions listed on the front page, 3 articles are written by one person (who is also the executive director of JVL), and one article is sourced to an external site (the library function of JVL). On the "About Us - Acknowledgement" section, there is a heading "our staff" which lists 'student interns' for both research and webmaster activities. On the same page, under 'Additional credits' a long list of external sources is shown (again, my interpretation, referring to the library function of JVL). On the "About Us - Board of Directors", one other member of the 3-person board, and one member of the 14-person Advisory board shares the same family name as the executive director. A 28-member Honorary board lists several US-senators and Congressmen. There is no mention of an Editorial board. On the page "About Us - Biographies", only one biography is listed; The executive director and author of 3 of the 4 recent 'original articles'.
Note that my paragraph here says nothing about the content of the site. The extensive referencing of sources used give the appearance of a scholarly approach to research. However, the impression of a single person driver, and the lack of a clear 'board of editors' would make me careful using the 'original articles' as a single reliable source. For the library function, as in every library, the original authors/sources should be checked for their reliability. Rwos ( talk) 14:41, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
I am wondering to what extent the info contained within a political candidate's current campaign website can be considered to be from a RS and therein placed on the BLP of that person here on Wikipedia? Mr.Grantevans2 ( talk) 19:08, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Treat it as a highly opinionated primary source, but one which is indubitably in possession of the facts regarding the subject. Where there is no reason to doubt, go ahead and use. Ray Talk 22:05, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
I'm wondering if any Turkish website such as the Assembly of Turkish American Association [75] or articles from Middle East Forum such as one by Edward J. Erickson [76] or one by Gunter Lewy [77] can be disregarded as a reliable source just because of the viewpoint they support.
For example, in the second article Edward J. Erickson, Researcher, Birmingham University, retired Lieutenant-Colonel, PhD in Ottoman Military History, The Leeds University, argues the involvement of Teşkilat-i Mahsusa which is claimed to take part in the "Armenian Genocide." The same argument is also seen from another article from the source by Gunter Lewy, Professor Emeritus of Political Science, University of Massachusetts-Amherst.
There is a long list of historians who have been studying Ottoman history that supports the Turkish argument concerning the Armenian issue. Are they reliable sources or are we supposed to ignore and dismiss them as they support the Turkish argument? TheDarkLordSeth ( talk) 14:55, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
Be as clear as possible - what information is being cited to what source in what article. Use diffs and quotes liberally. Thanks. Hipocrite ( talk) 15:53, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
Let me try this one more time. Firstly, you are directed not to respond further to Anothroskon untill you have clearly responded to me. You will provide the following, or you will recieve no further assistance at this noticeboard.
If you respond again to this thread without providing those three things, I will archive this thread as not-actionable. Hipocrite ( talk) 20:44, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
There have been several articles about fraternities and sororities nominated at Good Article Nominations recently. An example is Delta Upsilon, currently under review. Many of these articles cite almost exclusively sources that are published by the fraternities themselves. I have two questions:
My view is that they are not independent third-party sources, and it is not even clear that they are reliable generally. Other views? hamiltonstone ( talk) 23:47, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
I am curious as to what my fellow editors think of Gossip Cop's reliability. Before the name "Gossip Cop" scares everyone off, it's actually a web site that's supposed to be devoted toward debunking (or confirming) reporting on celebrities. My own preliminary analysis of this source is that it might be a reliable source. According to our article, it was founded by Michael Lewittes who "served as producer of NBC's Access Hollywood, gossip columnist and news director at Us Weekly magazine, a features editor for the New York Post, and a gossip columnist at the New York Daily News." According to their about page, [83] they were "created to police the gossip industry. Launched in July 2009, it is the go-to destination for credible celebrity news. Every day the site separates fact from fiction". Would this source be acceptable for non-controversial information? A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 01:47, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
Is Gossip Cop reliable for the claim that Kesha is scheduled to perform on Saturday Night Live April 17th? The specific source is this. The article is Kesha. Note: the issue has been resolved by using other sources, however, I am curious to find out other editors' opinions of whether the source was reliable for this particular content. A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 11:32, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
Example diff. http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=The_Apprentice_%28UK_TV_series%29&action=historysubmit&diff=353595911&oldid=353590919
Source: http://twitpic.com/j20r3
I've tried to reason with one editor about sources for an edit they are constantly making regarding The Apprentice (UK TV series). The editor is using two blogged pictures, neither of which contain any explanatory text, as citation for 3 "facts". Also, constantly adding pure uncited speculation/rumour/nonsense about some chap called "Phil". I have reverted and explained this too many times and don't want to end in a 3RR edit war. Inputs from others would be most welcome. MrMarmite ( talk) 01:03, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
An editor offered a source at the
Eyes Wide Shut discussion page as emphasis for noting the use of Venetian masks in the film. I've looked over the source (
Madame Pickwick Art Blog), and I would like some input from editors here regarding it.
There doesn't appear to be any provenance for the opinions being cited, and the person doing the talking (some fellow named 'Dave'), while interesting, doesn't seem to offer any personal qualifications or notability. I am thinking we cannot use it as a source or either argument or as a reference for the article. -
Arcayne
(cast a spell) 14:15, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
I assume that we do not explicitly state the copyright holder of a certain text (e.g. a source), if the copyright of a text has not been the subject of reports in independent reliable sources. There may be cases where this is appropriate, however, I do not think that a text that is being used as a source at Jewish Virtual Library falls into that category. Maybe there should be an addition to the relevant guideline/MOS, so that actual disputes on such questions can be resolved and potential disputes avoided. See the talk page section, [85] and [86]. Cs32en Talk to me 10:07, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
Sorry I should have got to this sooner but... I agree we generally do not include the copyright owner in the article. However, these two reviews are a little different. The first [87] was written in 2007 and archived by the Internet Reviews Archive at Bowdoin College, a branch of the Association of College and Research Libraries and that a branch of the American Library Association. The ALA had copyright of her words because she wrote for them, not for Life Magazine. I make this point because Cs32en would strip her of all her credentials except for her university affiliation when in fact it is clear that she wrote for the ALA. If the ALA wanted to disavow her comments, they would say so. "The ALA takes no responsibility ..." etc etc. Same situation for the second author who writes an article here [88] clearly also for the Association of College and Research Libraries. The editor above would allow only the author of the piece, John Jaeger, to be noted, and not his affiliation with the ALA or ACRL. These journals are written by their members. The ALA or the ACRL does not write stuff itself, it is a collection of its members. I believe it appropriate in both cases that their affiliation with the ALA and the ACRL should be part of the citation. The copyright notice said it could not be quoted without appropriate note of the copyright. I would drop it if we could acknowledge that the material was written by these people as representatives of the ALA and ACRL. I hope I am being clear. It is rather late here. :) Stellarkid ( talk) 05:21, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
As I understand it, this is a wiki about Jerusalem, see: http://www.jerusalempedia.com/about.html. I first noticed it added to Dominus Flevit Church, see [89]. I believe this site rather uncontroversially fails WP:RS? If so, and if people don´t mind; can we add it to the spam-lists? How? Cheers, Huldra ( talk) 12:01, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
This passage "In 1918 the Russians attacked Poland and I volonteered to go into the army. I was only fifteen years old and my entire class had volunteered. Of course my family was not happy about that. My two older brothers were already in the army. One was an instructor in the automobile division and he taught me to drive a big truck, but in the next several months the Bolsheviks were repelled and we all went back to school." from the book 'Mystic Souls' (2002) by Lyn Harper, published by iUniverse is being used to prove that the person quoted joined the Polish army before June 1919. There are a few probloms 1.The Russians did not attack Poland untill 1919. 2.They were driven back in 1920. 3 The source is self published. I as such do not bleive the source can be used to back up the claim. Slatersteven ( talk) 13:47, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
www.apologeticsindex.org/ www.rickross.com/ www.xfamily.org/ www.cultnews.com/
In The New Religous Movements/Cults section of Wikipedia These Three Sites are Pretty Heavily linked in some Articles. Here the Issues i see,
www.apologeticsindex.org/ frankly I have looked for anything on This Guy Anton Hien, I fail to see how he is an authority on anything here. Secondly his site has a bunch of proable Copy right violations. Thirdly had any one the pages on any in this was transfered to wikipedia it would be speedy deleted as an attack page.
RickRoss.com & cultnews.com, Frankly 99% of the stuff here looks like clear copy right Violations across the board. I highly doubt such diverse news orgizations all gavve him clearance to host them. Also I have not been able to find some articles on his site that allegdly came from Big orgs like NYT and Boston Globe anywhere else in News data bases at my university.
Xfamily.org, Two Problems Again Hosting likley Copyright violations and a Number of Primary Sources used in artcles. The Family International and Related artcles are almost made entirely of off this website.
Wikipedia Policy restrict us from linking to Site with Copy Violations and also requiring that Source meet verifable, Resrticting the use of primary sources, and For Sources do be a written by a reconized authority on a subject. All these sites seem to fail at least to catagories here. Weaponbb7 ( talk) 13:44, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
Astynax if i can't duplicate a Source why should we use Rick Ross for a Convience link? I tried Duplicating a source he abscribed to the boston globe! If i can't duplicate it Why use it for convience? Secondly Will, Evertime something nutty happens in the world Media turns to Doctor Phil type character, but that does mena we would cite an episode of Larry king with Doc Phil as source on Manic Dreppesion, Bipolarism, or autism? thats the Way i see him. And Doc Phil is actual Doctor this guy as far as i can tell does not have bachelors! But Rick Ross Aside The Other two are ones i can't find anything on and what i am more concerned with... And right now link to those site could get wikipeidia introble with courts that why we have the rule better to air on the side of caution than Rather do it until we told we cant and get fined. Weaponbb7 ( talk) 18:24, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
Astynx, there's a big difference between material missing and actively changing it. For example, Ross changed a news article from " cult-deprogramming organization named Wellspring" to "cult-[recovery rehabilitation retreat] named Wellspring". He states "Typically this is done for clarification (e.g. Wellspring doesn't do "deprogramming" but is instead a licensed mental health facility providing counseling for former cult members)". [94] Whether accurate or not, this is active POV editing of sources. Regarding copyright, WP:COPYLINK nowhere says "leave it to the courts". -- Insider201283 ( talk) 21:00, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
:If you compare the two versions, you'll find that the version on rickross.com contains a fair number of POV-motivated edits to the text. The first ones of these I noticed were:
From Jayne466 [95]. By the way the reason i Didn't Notify NRM workGroup is because as far as i can tell since John Carter dropped off the map, its only Me an J466 active right now. J466 got caught in Sweeping Scientology ARBCom Case is now Forbidden to Comment on Rick Ross. Thus i didnt bother notifying them Weaponbb7 ( talk) 22:09, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
Just to clarify We agree these sources are not up to wikipolicy? Weaponbb7 ( talk) 23:05, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
Whoops should Have been more Clear, It sounds like We Argree
Anton's Hein's Apologetics index does not meet Notability and Authority to be a RS
Citing XFamily's Primary Sources is not Appropriate and probable Copy Right Violation not Appropriate to use for a Convenience Link
CultNews and Rick Ross's sites should not be used for Connivence Links due to Probable Copy Violations
Is this correct?
There has been a dispute at the Washington International University article on the use of old, archived pages from the Oregon state database on diploma mills. User:Orlady and User:TallMagic have inserted material sourced to an archived page from the Oregon database referring to information which has since been removed. The two editors have stated that they have made it clear that the information is no longer included in the database. I've never come across this situation before. Is it ok to use old, archived database pages to insert controversial information into an article, information that has since been removed from the database in question? Cla68 ( talk) 23:13, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
I had a question on how would I determine the RS of a website? There may be some question and I wanted to get ahead of the process. The site I question is www.fair.org. Please let me know where to look up their standing as a reliable source. Padillah ( talk) 18:33, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
There is no doubt that B'Tselem is an interested party in the Israel-Palestinian conflict, but WP:RS specifically allows the use of biased sources. It is a truism (noted by WP:RS) that all sources are biased regardless of their ostensible independence.
As far as I'm aware B'Tselem's facts have never been challenged as inaccurate by the opposition who certainly would attempt to delegitimize B'Tselem if they could.
And it is important to note tha B'Tselem is an Israeli human rights organization, not a Palestinian advocacy group. It is also extremely critical of human rights violations by Palestinian Authority and Hamas as well as Israel.
I understand why people would be skeptical of B'Tselem's neutrality and reliability but there is a formidable and massive opposition to its work from Israeli "public diplomacy" organizations. If there were any serious neutrality problems with its data it would have been ripped apart instantly by one of the many pro-Israel "watchdog" organizations and we would have heard about it already. If you read the criticism it is immediately striking how insubstantial the criticism is and that the criticism is from unreliable, partisan sources such as Caroline Glick and NGO Monitor; there are no real criticism of the facts that B'Tselem talks about. As B'Tselem says, the organization is transparent in its operations and relies on independent field work. The opportunity (and motivation) for falsififying data is low. Factomancer ( talk) 22:19, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
Another point is that in the context that the information from B'Tselem is being used, Palestinian freedom of movement, reports from independent sources (the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, the World Bank) support and reinforce the facts presented by B'Tselem. If anything, these reports from independent sources are more forceful and open in their message about Palestinian restrictions. Read them for yourself - UN OCHA Update, World Bank Technical Team Report on Restrictions. As you can see, these reports coincide with and support B'Tselem facts completely. The reason B'Tselem is being used is that no other organization provides the same level of detail as to what is going on in the West Bank. I could simply use the reports from the UN and the World Bank but it would be a shame to give up the details provided by B'Tselem for vague, unexplained reasons of "bias" when the organization has a reputation for accuracy and honesty. Factomancer ( talk) 22:57, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
I note that Google Scholar shows a healthy 1800+ hits with numerous cites of B'Tselem data. Similarly for Google Books. Mordechai_Bar-On writes in In pursuit of peace: a history of the Israeli peace movement
B'tselem was perhaps the most impressive project of the Israeli peace movement. It undertook its mission under heavy attach from the right, and with significant reservations from many within the Labor Party as well. ... Some on the right branded B'tselem efforts as distortions, exaggerations, and a treasonous "laundering of dirty linen in public." The professional team of investigators and analysts that B'tselem recruited and trained defended the finds of their reports, which in most cases were subsequently proven to be accurate. ... and the organization was viewed by the press as a reliable source of information.
Further in footnote 119
In one case the IDF chief of staff publicly challenged the numbers B'tselem reported on Palestinian casualties, and subsequently apologized when he learned that his figures were wrong and B'tselem's report was correct.
Unomi ( talk) 23:51, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
I made extensive use of B'Tselem to source the population figures for the Israeli settlements in the articles Israeli settlement timeline and the graph of the population data that I produced ( IsraeliSettlementGrowthLineGraph.png). To corroborate the fgures, I also used numbers from Peace Now which were highly consistent with the B'Tselem figures. There were no objections to the sourcing of this data. If B'Tselem is deemed unreliable then that article and the graph need to be changed too. Factomancer ( talk) 02:36, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
I am wondering if we couldn't handle most of that with a !disclaimer that states that the information is sourced to human rights organizations? Unomi ( talk) 05:00, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Btselem is undoubtedly Israel's most widely respected human rights organization. Of course anything potentially controversial sourced to them should clearly indicate them as the source (which goes for all NGOs). Zero talk 22:15, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
It is often claimed that there is a pro-Israel bias in BBC reports You gave me a good chuckle. Please read: Documenting BBC Documentaries, Criticism of the BBC#Middle East and Israel, Balen Report. I think that there is a difference between being anti-Israel, pro-Palestinian or anti-Palestinian and pro-Israel. I think that organizations that take sides can still be RS for many things like geography, sports, entertainment, nature, etc... but when entire political / 'controversy' articles are based solely on 'one side', then we have a problem in misleading the reader. CNN is RS, right? I will never forget how after Saddam fell, multiple testimonies came forth about how they were reporting the truth, but not all of it. -- Shuki ( talk) 20:29, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
This article from NGO Monitor (Israel's side) points out B'tselem's agenda: “acts primarily to change Israeli policy in the Occupied Territories and ensure that its government, which rules the Occupied Territories, protects the human rights of residents there and complies with its obligations under international law,” and does not report on HR violations within Israel. NGO monitor states that their analysts have demonstrated that B'selem's data is "problematic, often inconsistent, and reflects the organization’s political agenda," citing this 2007 analysis [97] NGO-monitor also accuses B'tselem of a double standard with respect to " intra-Palestinian human rights abuses" and that it "Regularly minimizes Israeli security concerns." It offers a number of articles to back its points,including an [98] [99] [100]. In a 2007 CAMERA report [101], Tamar Sternthal for CAMERA questions the accuracy of their casualty figures. Then there is the Im Tirtzu report in Israel, a very controversial report which denigrates B'tselem along other ngos as "seeking to destroy Israel's image." [102] Point being, according to some, B'Tselem has an agenda. It is a self-described agenda, limited, and "problematic" according to the other side. I would say that they can certainly be used, but with the caveat that if there is disagreement on the other side, that both sides would have their story told, since there are two sides to this story. If there are any questions with respect to the data, those questions should be aired. There should be no attempt to only present the statistics of B'Tselem in relation to Israel, especially if another source is available and particularly if that other source disagrees with B'Tselem. Stellarkid ( talk) 04:13, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
I need opinions on two sources being used regarding mistakes in the book Angels & Demons: Is the content of Book Mistakes user-generated? Second, what is the reliability of CR Publications for that webpage's material on the same topic? Nightscream ( talk) 00:53, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
The video quickly went viral and has been viewed 6 million times.
The article I wish to use it for is McDonald's rap, an article that I created but was deleted on the grounds that the topic wasn't notable. I'd like to use this source to help establish the topic's notability in hopes that I can at some point rescue the article. Knowyourmeme.com was named by Time Magazine as one of the "50 Best Websites 2009" [103] and Maximum PC magazine named it as one of "50 Kick-Ass Websites You Need to Know About" [104]. It has also received favorable press coverage by The Guardian [105] and Winnipeg Free Press [106]. A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 00:12, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
Is Spinwatch a reliable source? There is a question at the English Defense League (EDL) whether this article can be used as a source for Robert Spencer's relationship with the EDL. The Four Deuces ( talk) 15:17, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
The source claims that Tannu Tuva was an "independent state", and that its soldiers engaged in hostilities, from source: "soldiers from that independent country fought on the Soviet-German front in 1943-44". If you look at the entries and sources in the talk pages, and the Tannu Tuva article ( Tuvan People's Republic), its almost impossible to conclude that Tannu Tuva was an "independent state". The source also states that Tannu Tuva is also "still at war with Germany" into and past the year 1944. Tannu Tuva was annexed on 11 October 1944 by the Soviet Union, and the area became the Tuvan Autonomous Oblast. I believe the source is not reliable due to all the evident misinformation contained within it, and things that are blatantly not true. Lt.Specht ( talk) 23:07, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
Minogue stated on her official Twitter page that the album will be released in the Summer of 2010 [1] and that she is also working with Fraser T. Smith and Tim Rice-Oxley. [2] On 24 February 2010 Minogue also revealed that she was working with Cutfather, Lucas Secon, Damon Sharpe, [3] Starsmith and Nervo. [4] On 12 March 2010 Minogue hinted on her Twitter page that a song produced by Stuart Price would be released to the public in June 2010. [5]
http://twitter.com/kylieminogue/status/9003792038
http://twitter.com/kylieminogue/status/9026328343
http://twitter.com/kylieminogue/status/9572763707
http://twitter.com/kylieminogue/status/9572927971
http://twitter.com/kylieminogue/status/10371400191
five twitter posts and..Kylie dot com another self publisher citation.
On 3 June 2010 she will be hosting the inaugural AmfAR "Inspiration Gala" at the New York Public Library honouring Jean Paul Gaultier for his lifelong contribution to men's fashion and the fight against AIDS. [6]
This is all self published, five twitter posts and an upcoming appointment announcement on her official website, I removed it and quoted http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources#Self-published_sources_.28online_and_paper.29 but it has been replaced and the editor seems to be saying the information is not available elsewhere so it is OK to use, is this content cited correctly? Off2riorob ( talk) 18:15, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
Is that the way forward that we are going to add to wikipedia whatever a subject puts on his twitter page. really? One day they add they are working with jonny and we add it and tomorrow it turns out they aren't working with jonny any mopre and we then add that to the article and sit waiting to update our BLP articles with the fabulous valuable self published tweets? If this is true it is a sad day for the wikipedia , sad indeed. Off2riorob ( talk) 19:39, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
I was redirected here for asking a question at the Help desk. My question, is Ancestry.com a reliable source? The reason I ask is because I've been adding the etmology on surname pages here on Wikipedia. Someone has suggested to me to simply source the link on an Ancestry.com surname meaning page which is Dictionary of American Family Names, Oxford University Press (Irish Names, French Names, Spanish Names, etc.). Although, I could simply reference another source, it's difficult to trust many websites. I welcome any advice on this matter, 71.240.162.16 ( talk) 04:50, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
{{
cite web}}
: External link in |title=
(
help)