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John Lockley is sourced largely with articles that are no longer available online, but that have been archived in some form on the subject's personal sites: johnlockley.com and african-shaman.com. In the former case, these are pdf scans of the originals. But in the second, the articles have been retyped, so there is no way of checking if they are true to the originals. There are a couple of users that want all these sources, even those retyped onto the personal site, to be considered secondary sources, and one of the users is removing the flag on the page for over-reliance on primary sources: [1]. They have also insisted on inserting links to multiple pages from the subject's same personal site as independent "Further Reading" links (in same diff above). User has tended to edit war in the past over this article. I would appreciate more eyes on this situation. Thanks. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 23:18, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
If John Lockley is notable in Africa, and/or Internationally, why is this en-wiki article the only one about him? As noted above by @ Tiptoethrutheminefield: [6], [7] and myself: [8], I think the lack of notability issues here are clear. I propose Lockley is only notable to a rather small group of English-speakers who frequent the type of workshops Lockley offers. Do folks think we can agree on a merge/redirect here or should we take this to AfD? (And yes, I know I could just go ahead and do this, but as Mycelium has been contentious and prone to revert-warring in the past, and almost no one pays attention to the article in question, I am seeking consensus as long as we finally have a few people looking at it now :) ) - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 17:06, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
A curious issue this, but I've encountered this guy adding a review to a film article, citing "eminent author and critic Shaiju Mathew" and his blog chaiwithshai.com. I very strongly suspect a COI between the contributing editor and the "eminent author and critic", beginning with the homophone between Shai and Shy, but I also note that many of this user's edits seem to revolve around Shaiju Mathew, like this edit (sorry, only Admins will be able to see it) where we learn that Arjun Mathew and Shaiju Mathew are the same person. (And that he couldn't make it in the world of song in part because of his "laid back attitude"...)
Anyhow, I'm digressing for entertainment purposes.
The question is this: Should we consider his blog a reliable source? Shaiju Mathew has an article, so he is presumably notable. The article claims Mathew is "a well known movie critic and writes extensively for various newspapers and magazines". As I poke through some articles found through the Indian news search, I don't quickly find anything that suggests he's a known critic. That doesn't mean he's not, only that I can't find anything. He might very well be a writer, he might very well be notable, but would we consider his blog a worthwhile source for film critiques? Thanks. Cyphoidbomb ( talk) 17:36, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
I see it's used in a number of articles. [9]. Besides any issues about using such a site as a source, this (Redacted) per WP:COPYVIOEL seems to be a copyvio download of a book still in copyright. Doug Weller talk 10:08, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
We're down to 4 articles now. (I think 11 may have been an underestimate; I feel sure I removed more):
John G. Schmitz (used as primary source for an obit of the article subject), H. Keith Thompson (used as a primary source to show article subject is a writer for the Journal of Historical Review), Geoff Muirden (used as a primary source to show article subject is a reviewer), and Germar Rudolf (used as a primary source for article subject's experiments on "cell phones in airliners").
None of these appear to be links to copyvio. There are also 72 other links in Talk, User talk, Wikipedia namespaces. I'll raise the question about WP:COPYVIOEL in these namespaces on WP:ELN. - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 07:36, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
Germar Rudolf, a disgustingly biased article that casts aside all notions of npov, but probably well protected against improvement. Tiptoethrutheminefield ( talk) 16:48, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
Fellow editors, Is Heatstreet ( http://heatst.com) a reliable source for attributed opinion? The publisher as listed at the site is Dow Jones & Company, Inc. The content of the site appears to include opinion pieces from a range of persons. Specific context for the question is this piece, by games journalist Ian Miles Cheong. The question here relates strictly to reliability of the source; questions on the noteworthiness of the opinion, neutrality of inclusion, or other aspects being a matter for article Talk pages. - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 23:47, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
The salient rule is that opinions are almost always reliable sources for opinions cited and used as opinion. The only issue would be whether the person is notable in the field in which he is expressing opinions, and, at first glance, that appears to be the case. And opinions held by notable persons are not "fact checked" nor is "fact checking" a requirement for use of opinions. By the way, trying to find opinions which are absolutely neutral would rule out opinions on Wikipedia in the first place. Which might not be a bad idea, but is not what Wikipedia policy goes by. Collect ( talk) 09:42, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
The claim that the results of the Referendum of the United Kingdom on the Membership of the United Kingdom in the European Union (2016), are "not legally binding", is tainted, or, is put into doubt by the fact that it was NEVER actually widely made (and was certainly never made on THIS article, here, on Wikipedia, and cited) BEFORE the (provisional) final results were announced and confirmed by the national chief Returning Officer from the Electoral Commission, in Manchester, based in one of the premises of Manchester City Council, sometime on June the 24th..
One of the last "clean" versions of the article, and the last version dated June the 23rd..
This question is in fact not first raised by me, but by Peter Lilley MP (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Conservative), who said ( Hansard: House of Commons; 5 September 2016; Volume 614), by his speech in the debate (regarding the e-Petition Number 131215; relating to EU referendum rules ),
"The final argument I want to deal with is that the referendum was only advisory. I debated daily with remainers—sometimes three times a day—but not once did a remain opponent say to the audience, “Oh by the way, this referendum is just advisory. If you give us the wrong advice we will ignore the result and remain in the EU anyway or perhaps call another referendum or vote against application of article 50 and the referendum result until we get the right result.” Did any Opposition Member say that to an audience and can they give me chapter and verse of them saying that they would treat the result as advisory and ignore it if they did not like it? Not one of them did. Now they are pretending that the whole thing was advisory. I forget which hon. Member said that was made clear during the debate.
"On the contrary, the then Foreign Secretary, who introduced the Referendum Bill, said that it was giving the decision to the British people. When launching the campaign, the Prime Minister said:
""This is a straight democratic decision—staying in or leaving—and no Government can ignore that. Having a second renegotiation followed by a second referendum is not on the ballot paper. For a Prime Minister to ignore the express will of the British people to leave the EU would be not just wrong, but undemocratic." —(Official Report, 22 February 2016; Vol. 606, c. 24.)
"It was spelled out at the beginning of the referendum debate and again and again during it that this was a decisive choice for the British people. If we ignore that choice now and treat the British people with contempt, we will undermine their respect for democracy and prove how little faith we have in it."
Hansard transcripts
Recordings of proceedings in audio and video, or Audio-only
Recordings of proceedings (Audio-only)
David Lammy MP (Tottenham) (Labour) had indeed, on the same debate, cited the Briefing Paper issued by the House of Commons Library. He, however, erred, in that he either omitted by oversight, or he conveniently, for his own purpose, deliberately ignored and omitted the disclaimer, at the end of the document, which clearly states, at the end (Page 33 of 33 pages according to the Printers), that,
"Disclaimer - This information is provided to Members of Parliament in support of their parliamentary duties. It is a general briefing only and should not be relied on as a substitute for specific advice. The House of Commons or the author(s) shall not be liable for any errors or omissions, or for any loss or damage of any kind arising from its use, and may remove, vary or amend any information at any time without prior notice."
Bill documents — European Union Referendum Act 2015 (2015 c. 36)
European Union Referendum Bill 2015-16 (Briefing Paper) (Number 07212, 3 June 2015) (summary)
(in full) (.PDF)
(cached) (Google)
Essentially, the cited Brief Paper cannot be used or otherwise cited as an acceptable or reliable legal advice. -- 87.102.116.36 ( talk) 00:12, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
Hello,
I'd like to know if there have been any discussions about whether we can use Buzzfeed articles as sources. I notice that Buzzfeed is being used on various pages, but I'd like to know if there is any clear policy about it. Of course, by "Buzzfeed articles", I mean actual articles by real writers, i.e. legitimate content, and not clickbait pages. Jean-Jacques Georges ( talk) 14:28, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
My question is whether I can use this source on the matter of mysterious disappearance of Musa al-Sadr. I ask this because what is mentioned in the source on this page is very counter intuitive in that it claims the famous Shia figure Mohammad Beheshti conspired his death with Qaddafi.-- Kazemita1 ( talk) 12:22, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
With Wikipedia:Ignore all rules, the definition of reliable sources has become a mess of confusion.
I would like to know the answers to these, so I can add/remove respective content in Wikipedia articles, as per answers written here. More specifically, New World Order (conspiracy theory), Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, PRISM (surveillance program), Windows 10, Aam Aadmi Party, Democratic Party (United States), etc.
Thank You -- Ne0 ( talk) 16:36, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
So, from what I understand, I can use WP:IAR to bypass WP:MEDRS, and revive this article as common knowledge. Am I right ?No. Not even remotely. I gave an example where a broad spectrum of empirical data all points to a very specific claim being true. You can't go from that to "replace MEDRS sources with common knowledge to make a new article". There's a huge gap between empirical data and 'common knowledge'. The former is un-debatable, the latter is almost always just plain wrong.
An AFP report with the incredibly optimistic headline "Facebook, Twitter join coalition to improve online news" lists several news organizations as users of a third-party fact-checking service:
Be aware that reports from these organizations may no longer have sufficient internal fact-checking, and factual errors may propagate throughout the entire network. 50.196.177.155 ( talk) 20:19, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
In point of fact, the NYT has no actual "fact checkers" as employees, and few places have any "fact checkers" as employees. The reference given says
Using the "social web" is the issue, and there is no doubt that there is no general fact-checking done on the "social web." Collect ( talk) 13:57, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
1. Sources:
2. Article: Trac
3. Statement that the source is supporting: Trac meets Wikipedia's notability guidelines.
These were rejected because "How to books are not independent of the subject", "is simply a doctoral thesis", "is a mention to explain why they used it, not to say it's the best", "they're not reliable sources". Wikipedia:Notability_(software) says "A computer program can usually be presumed to be notable if [...] It is the subject of multiple printed third-party manuals, instruction books [...]" and "It is reasonable to allow relatively informal sources for free and open-source software". Wikipedia:Notability_(organizations_and_companies)#cite_ref-fourexamples_4-0 says "Microsoft Word satisfies this criterion because people who are wholly independent of Microsoft have written books about it." For the purpose of establishing notability of the Trac software, these all seem reliable to me as they are independent from the authors of the Trac software. Cgbuff ( talk) 17:28, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
As the subject states, is it appropriate to dispute the credibility or reliability of a particular claim within an otherwise reliable source? I assume that it is, since this Noticeboard clearly states the following: Many sources are reliable for statement "X" but unreliable for statement "Y". This issue was raised during a discussion at the John A. McDougall talkpage, specifically regarding a source which is cited to support the claim that the McDougall Plan is a "fad diet", among the other claims supported by the source. The claims are on the John A. McDougall article and the specific claims, from the lead, are as follows:
McDougall's diet—The McDougall Plan—has been categorized as a fad diet that carries some disadvantages, such as a boring food choice and the risk of feeling hungry.
The claims are again stated in John A. McDougall § McDougall Plan criticism as follows:
McDougall's namesake diet, The McDougall Plan, has been categorized as a fad diet with possible disadvantages including a boring food choice, flatulence, and the risk of feeling hungry.
The source in question is Essential Concepts for Healthy Living (6th Edition) by Sandra Alters and Wendy Schiff; it was published by Jones & Bartlett Learning in 2012. The specific claims are being supported by page 327 of this source, wherein the McDougall Plan is listed as a "fad diet". No explanation or justification is given for this classification, however, and the source cited in the textbook—Wardlaw's Perspectives in Nutrition (8th Edition) by Carol Byrd-Bredbenner, Donna Beshgetoor, Gaile Moe, and Jacqueline Berning; published by McGraw-Hill Education in 2009—does not technically classify the McDougall Plan as a "fad diet".
Basically, these claims, particularly that the McDougall Plan is a "fad diet", are supported by a tertiary source which is itself supported by a tertiary source that isn't supported by any secondary source or primary. This classification appears to be the unsubstantiated opinions of the authors based on a dubious reading of their own source (in which case WP:RSOPINION applies, if nothing else). Although this source may be otherwise reliable for other claims, my dispute is that the source is unreliable—or at least unsatisfactory—to support these specific claims, or at least the claim that the McDougall Plan is a "fad diet". Please peruse my full position and further discussion about the topic in the article's talkpage.
Given this context, would this issue be one of a reliable source being unreliable for a particular claim (or set of claims)? If not, under which conditions might that occur, if at all? I would assume that anything claimed in a reliable source is not automatically assumed to be reliable and credible simply by virtue of the source itself being reliable and credible, but that Wikipedians must determine whether the source is reliable and strong enough for that particular claim, as well. If I'm mistaken on this, then please do correct me.
For the record, I have also submitted reports on the Neutral Point of View Noticeboard and Biographies of Living Persons Noticeboard, which can be found here and here, respectively. Alexbrn has also submitted a report to the Fringe Theories Noticeboard, which can be found here. ― Nøkkenbuer ( talk • contribs) 21:23, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
P.S. I forgot all the skills that go into the related infrastructure that makes your computer and WP possible. Power generation, construction, business, government, etc... The idea that we never trust an expert unless they prove themselves is a black hole of illogic. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 00:25, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
In the article on Tony Gardiner ( /info/en/?search=Tony_Gardiner), his Olympiad predecessor is given as Peter Shiu. While this information is correct, the Peter Shiu in question is Mathematician Peter Man-Kit Shiu ( http://www.genealogy.ams.org/id.php?id=27070) as opposed to the Peter Shiu linked to who is the Vice Chairman of the Liberal Party in Hong Kong ( /info/en/?search=Peter_Shiu). --— Preceding unsigned comment added by Aap03102 ( talk • contribs) 10:56, September 7, 2016 (UTC)
This article [1] published in The News International has no markings to indicate whether it is a news item or an opinion column. Can you take a look and give me your view? It has been used on the 2016 Uri attack page in this edit. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 11:28, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
References
Should http://blavatskyarchives.com/ be considered a reliable source? It is used in the article Charles Webster Leadbeater to support a variety of assertions. Dlabtot ( talk) 07:53, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
Is this] which is named a diploma a reliable source for claims about Pleistocene lakes in South America? Jo-Jo Eumerus ( talk, contributions) 14:51, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for the input so far. For the record I was not asking about a specific claim, just whether that source in general could be used to build the article currently sandboxed at User:Jo-Jo Eumerus/Lake Tauca per WP:MINE. Jo-Jo Eumerus ( talk, contributions) 15:17, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
I'm sure the The Daily Telegraph has been discussed before, but I don't know the consensus. I did come across a piece that I thought was pretty appalling. It's used to ref a fact over at Murder of Seth Rich.
It's not exactly a BLP since the person's dead, but the "for people who have recently died" clause applies since his family has made requests regarding publicity about the matter. So it's a sensitive issue, and its an extremely sensitive fact (it implies that the victim may have been a criminal and was assassinated by a hitman rather than killed in a random robbery). The passage, taken from this piece, involves the motive for the Murder of Seth Rich (he was pretty clearly murdered in a botched robbery but some people have trolled that he was assassinated) and says:
which we can deconstruct as
The third point is implied. Otherwise there's no need to mention the second point, and there's especially no need to use the word "but" to preface the second point. The use of "but" clearly presents the third point by clear inference.
This sure looks like editorializing on the part of The Daily Telegraph, since common sense tells us that if you're robbing someone, and it goes bad and you shoot the person (on the public street! gunshots are loud!) your number one thought would be to get the fuck away fast rather than pawing over his body. (I don't have a ref proving that, but the burden would be on an editor trying to prove the highly counter-intuitive proposition, I would think.)
(FWIW there's zero evidence of an assassination, and no disinterested reasonable person has suggested this; it's purely a " Vince Foster murder" type political ploy.)
The entire Telegraph piece looks pretty sensationalist to me, and while its presented as a straight news story their POV about the matter -- an extremely fringe POV -- is pretty much in evidence. So my question is, is the Telegraph any good generally for ref'ing sensitive contentious (kind of BLP-ish even) facts, and what about this one in particular? Herostratus ( talk) 14:51, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
To cut a long story short, my general thoughts on newspaper sources is they are okay as a "stand-in" source or to flesh out detail, but generally I would not choose it over as a critically acclaimed book or thoroughly researched report written ten years after the event which may not exist. The Telegraph has historically had a pro-Conservative bias (which is why it's nicknamed the Torygraph) but otherwise is considered a broadsheet-style paper like the Times and Guardian with a solid reputation of fact-checking and minimum sensationalism. Of course, that doesn't imply everything they say is true or accurate, like any newspaper. Reading the piece linked here, I immediately get the impression it is calling the Wikileaks events a conspiracy theory without making any serious attempt to show the reader it is true. With such a small article, it is probably not a prominent enough viewpoint to include right now, until there's any more detail that can be fleshed out from other sources. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 09:47, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
Quite agree that The Telegraph is one of the UK newspapers where one would least expect to see POV issues (unless something was quoted directly from the Editorial). Robbery is only successful if something is taken, although in UK there is the separate offence of "Assault with intent to rob", see [19]. So I see no problem at all. The Telegraph, like any UK source reporting an ongoing crime investigation, is dependent on what the police tells it and this is often not a full (or even always consistent) account of what may have occurred. But this happened in the US, of course, so the situation may be totally different and/or something may have been "lost in translation"? Martinevans123 ( talk) 10:06, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
This noticeoboard is of no value if it's the same editors coming here from the article talk page. The idea is to get independent viewpoints. The issue at hand on the talk page is why we should use the Telegraph when there are unquestionably better sources such as the Washington Post for the facts presented in the article text. The Telegraph insinuates all the conspiracy and anti-Clinton mongering by incorporating and pointing to that much weaker, redundant reference. SPECIFICO talk 21:10, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
Curiosity took me to have a look at the article. I think there has been a lot of troubling editing going on there, and a troubling distortion of Wikipedia guidelines (such as BLP and consensus) to support that editing. We have some of that distortion revealed in the initial post here: "This sure looks like editorializing on the part of The Daily Telegraph" given as a reason to exclude the source. However, sources can editorialize as much as they want, the Wikipedia guidelines forbidding editorializing is about Wikipedia editors editorializing the content of sources. My feeling is that this article has been censored to the point that the subject's notability has been entirely removed - it would now almost qualify as an AfD candidate. The "speculation / conspiracy" stuff that some editors working on it are wanting to exclude [22] is what makes the subject notable - remove it and all we have left is a non-notable murder. I think the article urgently needs some new pairs of editorial eyes to look at it. Tiptoethrutheminefield ( talk) 21:03, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
Counting noses and arguments, it looks like the consensus is that the Daily Telegraph is a reliable and neutral source generally and in this instance in particular, and very much thanks to my colleauges who took the time and effort to help out here. Herostratus ( talk) 17:19, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
There seems to be some concern about "How do we know what we know about #Gamergate?" in the CJR. The question does not concern its use in the article, but on whether its description of the landscape of other publications on the topic is a significant resource for informing article structure. That discussion is here. I don't quite understand the objections, but they apparently pertain in part to the qualifications of the author, Chris Ip. The article has been discussed once before on RSN. Rhoark ( talk) 02:09, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
Some relevant info: It should be noted that this source does not actually appear in the CJR proper - rather, it's web-only content on the CJR's "behind the news" blog. So WP:NEWSBLOG (and it's requirement that such sources should be "used with caution") would seem to apply. It may also be relevant that it was written by one of the CJR's Delacorte Fellows, which means that he was a recent journalism school grad, basically doing a year-long work experience/internship at CJR, when he wrote this. I did my best to figure out what Chris Ip does now, but he does not seem to be currently working as a journalist, or to have done much journalistic writing since his stint at the CJR - at least that's what his own website appears to suggest.
Not saying any of that necessarily makes the source unusable - but it certainly affects its weight. This wasn't written by a particularly experienced or well-known journalist, so whatever weight it carries comes from it's appearance on the CJR's blog. Fyddlestix ( talk) 04:50, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
The editors opposed to Miriyam Aouragh’s inclusion support the retention of Matthias Küntzel. I support the retention of both. She is an Arabist, qualified formally in the topic area: he has no technical background in Middle Eastern studies, no knowledge of Arabic, and is strongly criticized by German Arabists as incompetent. For those who cannot read German, the German wiki states he is a 'publicist' and several of the most prominent German Arabists dismiss his books, published by such distinguished publishing houses as Elephanten Press and Telos Press. One even summed his tirades up as 'grotesk verzerrt' (grotesquely distorted'). He's not cited in the serious scholarly literature on Islam, as opposed to be frequently cited in the polemical literature.
(a) wiki policy on RS does not appear in my view to be applied neutrally here, since the criteria being applied vary according to the position taken by the scholar in question: an Arabist with a university post is excluded, a non-Arabist with a university position is accepted, from a section dealing with Achcar's views and their reception. (b) All that concerns me is to hear from neutral third party experts here whether or not Miriyam Aouragh, used already with attribution, is a reliable source for a review of a book by Gilbert Achcar? Nishidani ( talk) 19:21, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
As No More Mr Nice Guy writes, Küntzel is a published by academic sources on this exact topic. The virtually unknown Ms. Aouragh is published in an extremist group blog - a source explictly disallowed by WP:V. I have little to add to Nice Guy's summary, but I will correct the (typical) misrepresentations by Nishidani. Aouragh is not an "Arabist" - here is her bio on the U of Westminster site [25]- it doesn't use that word, even once, and here is the bio she had on Oxfords Internet Institute - [26] which also does not use that descriptor. Both sites describe her as having a background in anthropology, and current interests in Internet and New Media. This is also what she teaches (or rather, taught, a few years ago. It does not appear that she currently has a teaching role) at UoW - "Media, Activism & Censorship". Her research interests are likewise described as "Centre for Social Media Research", "Arab Media" and" 'New Media-New Politics". At OII, her research interests were "virtual mobility, online empowerment, grassroots activism, Internet and Arab revolutions, construction of online exiled communities". None of this is even remotely related to the relationship between Nazism and antisemitism in the Arab world. Epson Salts ( talk) 00:55, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
If you had read the review (I just did), and if you knew anything about academic writing, you'd recognize that this review is written by someone who obviously knows her stuff, including historical developments, major academic and other opinions on history, and the various critiques from various angles of those opinions and interpretations. I note also that you (deliberately?) cite only "social media and internet activism", which of course are taking place in a context--that of the Arab Spring in Lebanon, Palestine, and Jordan, a range of events that one cannot understand without a thorough grounding in the history of that region, including colonialism, two World Wars, the competition and cooperation between three major religions, etc. She got a Ph.D. in that area from a pretty decent university. Come get a graduate degree, and you'll see how much you need to know. Now, I understand that you don't like this person's politics and activism, but that doesn't make them wrong or, for the present discussion, unqualified. Drmies ( talk) 03:11, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
(e/c):::Just a slight correction there Drmies if you will allow me. There was no Arab spring in Palestine, as that is Israel, a haven of democracy, free speech, relative peace and sanity in a region gone insane. If you are referring to the Palestinian Territories, there has been no spring there, but unfortunately a repressive government holding on to power, with no press freedom or even a timeframe for the next elections. Abbas has been de facto strongman since 2006. The Arab Spring phenomena of 2010 has turned into an ice age, the ice splattered with hundreds of thousands of dead. See Syria, as we all do daily, barrel bombs, chlorine vapor and all. Just a gentle correction. Simon. Irondome ( talk) 03:38, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
Aouragh's review is too partisan for my liking. But Künstel's review is also highly partisan, and he is also known as an activist at one edge of the spectrum. Künstel also has a COI: Achcar derided him as "an 'expert' on Islamic questions who does not know Arabic" and called his book a "fantasy-based narrative pasted together out of secondary sources and third-hand reports" (p163). I'd prefer to leave both of them out, with the second best option being to leave both of them in. Excluding Aouragh and including Künstel on the totally fatuous reasoning provided here would be a blatant NPOV violation. It is perfectly obvious that Aouragh is a qualified commentator whose expertise is related to the content of Achcar's book. Her review can be cited with attribution, or it can be removed along with Künstel's. Zero talk 09:31, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
Errr, sorry to perhaps burst your bubbles, but is the article in question actually by Miriyam Aouragh? I think it is not. Has nobody noticed that the embedded link in the author's name [27] actually leads to Philip Weiss, not Miriyam Aouragh, and that Miriyam Aouragh's name is crossed out in the publisher's newsletter reposted here [28], and that the article's author is given as Phillip Weiss elsewhere on the mondoweiss website [29]. And it is listed amongst his articles here [30]. Bubbles are all burst, I think. But at least Miriyam Aouragh got a Wikipedia article out of it. :) Tiptoethrutheminefield ( talk) 21:35, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
Miriyam Aouragh claims that article on her own web page and it is the sort of article she would write. The discrepancy is more likely a glitch made by Mondoweiss. The lists of articles by each author are probably generated automatically so only one editing error was needed. The page with crossings out does not just cross out her name but also crosses out the title, so it says nothing about authorship. On balance the evidence that Aouragh wrote it is much stronger than the contrary. Zero talk 03:36, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
In the AfD for The Latin Testament Project there's an editor who is arguing for various sources as a sign of notability. Many of them are unusable, such as a personal email by someone asking to use text from one of the books in the project, as that's a SPS at best. However the email states that the person is going to use that text in a book published through the University Press of the Catholic University of Lublin, which looks like it also goes by the name of Wydawnictwo KUL, at least via their URL.
I'm not familiar with this like I would be the Yale University press, but it offhand seems like it should be usable given the university's ranking in Poland. What say you guys? This one is iffy since I've not familiar with the publisher and I know that being a university press isn't always an automatic seal of usability. Their books do seem to get referenced here and there. I don't see a lot, but then we also have to take the language barrier into consideration. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 15:04, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
We are currently having a discussion (at Talk:2016_Uri_attack#Kashmir_unrest) on what sort of background to include for the 2016 Uri attack article. I have found that BBC News, New York Times, The Telegraph, LA Times, Washington Post all mention 2016 Kashmir unrest, and the 70-80 people killed in it, in their coverage of the Uri attack. User:Kautilya3, however, has implied that these sources are not very reliable and instead suggested using The Diplomat (specifically this article) as a more reliable source for sourcing the events preceding the attack. While I do not deny the reliability of The Diplomat (while noting that all opinions should be attributed and not stated as fact), I do think that all the sources I mentioned above (NYT and BBC) are also reliable enough to be used. VR talk 23:33, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
It's just a hypothetical at the moment, but Good Friday#Ireland currently cites this article from the generally respectable Irish Independent. I wanted to rewrite the sentence to fully represent what the source says, but would have trouble doing so without somewhat altering the structure of the section and perhaps lending undue weight to a recent (mostly 2016, it seems) controversy surrounding a ban on the sale of alcohol. If I were to do so, I might quote Donall O'Keeffe, whom the article quotes as saying the ban "amounted to discrimination against the licensed trade and made no financial sense". It's a really minor issue, but technically the two verbs should be in square-brackets, as it's obvious he wasn't speaking in the past tense ( this source gives what look like his actual words, ironically not in quotation marks).
But are we allowed correct our source on this kind of thing? Or should we follow our source in (probably, kinda-sorta) misquoting the person named? Or should we just find a better source?
Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 05:39, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
There is an ambiguity in use of primary and secondary sources in legal articles. Please comment at WikiProject Law here. Note I changed this initial comment after the comment by TheBlueCanoe below.
@ Stevietheman: was unsatisfied with the limited involvement with the last discussion that ended up sent to archives. At the advice of Cameron11598 I am opening up another RS/N section.
Following is the contents of the last discussion in entirety:
Digging around I found out that this "Rebel Magazine" is not even the Rebel Magazine we have an article on ( [31]), but instead some obscure Arizona Christian publication. A publication so non-notable that it doesn't even have an article on Wikipedia, and so poorly managed that none of their websites ( [32] [33]) are even functional (though they do have a facebook page [34]. Therefore this source should not be considered as reliable on any article, including Shaun_King_(activist) (which by the way is the only article trying to use it as a source). - 75.140.253.89 ( talk) 03:16, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Stevietheman insists on an RfC being made for this. He refuses to do that himself, despite my protests, that in my limited experience I don't feel comfortable doing that and even if I did, I have no idea which category to file it in. If the passing reader would please create an RfC for this, I guess it would be helpful?? - 75.140.253.89 ( talk) 05:05, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
I looked at the website and couldn't find any information regarding editorial oversight nor any names of anyone who runs the website. -- Bob K31416 ( talk) 15:05, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
[Please note that there is currently a discussion at
Talk:Shaun King (activist)#Attributing King for info on his father. --
Bob K31416 (
talk) 16:40, 22 September 2016 (UTC)]
Can Entertainment.ie be used as a reliable source? Specifically, this article reviewing one of Onnit's products. There is currently an RfC discussion on Onnit's talk page in which the entertainment.ie article's reliability may influence some decisions. Thanks! Meatsgains ( talk) 01:00, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
I nominated the Joachim Helbig article for community reassessment due to sourcing concerns:
Any additional input would be welcome. K.e.coffman ( talk) 02:59, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
Of the subjected article, can this can be considered a reliable source since it comes from odatv.com, it's not a blog or a forum but an online news site, they have published the interview with a descendant of the subjected woman. Is this website trustworthy? For the same subject, please advise if this second source can be considered reliable. The second one is archived from 2003, way before any TV serial aired. This source says that Mahidevran was married to Suleiman and was a Haseki sultan. Please advise for both sources. Worldandhistory ( talk) 15:45, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
Crash Override Network ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Gamergaters want to include information on this page which is sourced to a rightwing political rags The Washington Examiner and Heat Street.
jps ( talk) 12:17, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
that bias is prioritized such that the publications do not have a "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy"? Are you saying there are instances of inaccuracy and lack of fact-checking or that their bias is strong enough that a reputation for accuracy is irrelevant?
An August 2016 leak of chat logs among members who would go on to found the group suggested some participated in doxing and harassment of Gamergate supporters.[13] Ian Miles Cheong says he was a member of the chat group and that the logs are genuine.[14]
Are you saying there are instances of inaccuracy and lack of fact-checking or that their bias is strong enough that a reputation for accuracy is irrelevant?- Not the latter; more or less the former. The promotion of WP:FRINGE perspectives is part of what calls their reputation for accuracy into question -- I didn't mean that particular article did so. They do not have a good reputation for fact-checking and accuracy in the way they report on contentious political topics (including social topics with a conservative/liberal angle, like gamergate). Doesn't mean it's precluded from use, but if the only sources for a particular claim are sources that are those with a bias relevant to that claim, it's considered fringe. I'm talking more about use of these sources in general than this particular instance btw. (i.e. I'm more reacting Ryk72's comments than jps's). — Rhododendrites talk \\ 19:22, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
if the only sources for a particular claim are sources that are those with a bias relevant to that claim, it's considered fringe; nor evidence that this is a generally applied principle. Nor am I seeing anything in the history of this noticeboard which supports a consensus that the Washington Examiner promotes
WP:FRINGE perspectives. I think it's clear from our use of news sources generally that bias is not a disqualifier. More on this to follow, below. If there are supporting policies, guidelines or discussions demonstrating consensus, it would be appreciated if diffs to these could be provided. - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 00:03, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
I think the point here is fairly clear. There are a number of factual claims being made sourced to the Examiner:
Both of these points would need a fairly strong source to verify. The Washington Examiner is liable to simply repeat something they heard on the internet one day as they have done in the past. Additionally, we have the following opinion sourced to Heatstreet:
This is at least properly couched as an opinion rather than a fact, but how do we know Heatstreet has faithfully and reliably reported that this opinion was proffered? jps ( talk) 20:04, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
It is indeed hard to decide which is which in this topic area, and it is way beyond the scope of Wikipedia itself to try to disentangle this. We have in the past gotten into problems in Wikipedia including opinions of people who have a documented history of changing their minds. (I am reminded of an instance where Virginia Heffernan was quoted praising a particular climate denial blog and then she changed her mind on her verified twitter account which led to all sorts of contortions about how we should describe the state of affairs. The end result was to omit her opinions on the blog entirely.) As it is, I think this discussion is probably best left to the talkpage. jps ( talk) 14:45, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
Please read Argument from fallacy. You can utterly destroy every argument against inclusion, and still not make the case for inclusion. You need to make a positive argument for why we should keep the material. Also, your argument about Heat Street applies just as well the breitbart.com, one of the biggest non-RSs there is. A sources reliability is not determined by the success level of its founder, but by its reputation for fact checking and accuracy. Also, there would be nothing to say about the group if the article did not say what the group does. That's the thing with group of any sort, from your local D&D group to multinational corporations to charities: the most important thing about them is what they do. Disparaging the article for describing what CON does is like disparaging an article about a film for having a plot summary. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 19:44, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
Much more so than Gawker or the Mary Sue, which are widely cited on the main Gamergate controversy pageJust a note that isn't a true statement. The Mary Sue is cited once, and it's being used for the attributed opinion of Wu's and even then it's only being used as a primary source and backed up by a secondary source. Gawker is cited for a statement about Gawker saying they lost money. And Kotaku a Gawker publication is used in three places, once as an example of the "Death of an identity" article and twice for statements about Kotaku directly. — Strongjam ( talk) 19:51, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
Since you asked, the information improves the article by documenting that CON was conducting many of the same toxic conduct that they purported to oppose, directly in contrast to their mission statement.I see two problems with that. 1) Allegations against 'social justice' types are a dime a dozen. The internet is full of them. I'm sure there are allegations that Zoe Quinn has raped someone out there, somewhere. 2) Even if they are true, they serve as nothing more than an example of the "white hat hacking" the article already identifies the group as engaging in. Hacking is, by definition, the retrieval of private information, an act which accomplishes nothing if that information is not used somehow. Doxing is, by definition, the release of private information. It should be apparent enough from the mention of white hat hacking that doxing would be in their repertoire.
Cheong himself should be considered a reliable source, as he's been the most forthcoming about the actions of CON.That looks like a non-sequitur to me. How does Cheong being vocal (you used the word "forthcoming", but that word presumes he is already considered reliable) about CON make him more reliable? Generally speaking, in my experience, the most vocal critics of any group or person are usually the least trustworthy. I have a niece who is the most feminist person I know, and she thinks that all men are rapists by nature. The fact that she won't shut up about it doesn't make her views any less ridiculous.
The logs also align with the statements made soon after leaving CON months ago- that the group wasn't living up to their values and engaging in the same behavior that they claimed to oppose.That's something worth considering. Can you provide some sources where he said this soon after leaving CON?
Furthermore, the Washington Examiner article presents an objective description of the log's contents that we can see match the primary source being covered.While Cheong's endorsement helps, I find it to be insufficient, given the nature of this issue. I think there needs to be some independent affirmation that the logs are genuine, such as a current member of CON who is a participant attempting to 'explain' the logs, or to justify their use of such tactics. Barring that, we should not claim the logs are accurate. If we can find some coverage elsewhere, however, I'm open to keeping this claims, re-written to be in source voice. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 19:44, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
I see two problems with that. 1) Allegations against 'social justice' types are a dime a dozen. The internet is full of them.Thank you for the detailed reply. This is true, but allegations against anyone are common on the internet. We're not citing a 4chan post, these aren't third-party "allegations" but a direct documentation of the group's inner workings, verified by a primary source. The Washington Examiner article mostly just repeats what is already documented.
That looks like a non-sequitur to me. How does Cheong being vocal (you used the word "forthcoming", but that word presumes he is already considered reliable) about CON make him more reliable?. He's been the most honest about the group's inner workings, whereas no other members will confirm or deny the logs (besides whoever leaked them, and the leaker is clearly not comfortable with making themselves known). In the past he stated that he joined because he believed in the purported mission of CON, but grew disillusioned upon seeing that they were seeking to create more victims of doxing/harassment instead of supporting them. I'll need a moment to find his past statements, but he's talked about it at length in a blog post or two, without leaking specific chatlogs. Also unlike the current members of CON, Cheong no longer has a personal or professional stake in the group's reputation. He's also not the "most vocal" critic, just the most forthcoming. His recent verification of the logs was the most he's spoken about the group since announcing his departure. Aside from that, current members of CON have commented on the release of the logs, CON member Randi Harper was present in the logs and publicly attempted to justify her actions in a section. Specifically, the act of deliberately antagonize Gamergate members on twitter for the purpose of "distracting" them from a recent discovery that one CON member was an outspoken pedophile and child porn distributor in the years prior. The only sources for this are primary ones, so I shall not name the CON member in question. Source for Randi's verification of the logs: https://archive.is/h9Xfp 73.13.28.182 ( talk) 20:59, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
We're not citing a 4chan post, these aren't third-party "allegations" but a direct documentation of the group's inner workings, verified by a primary source. The Washington Examiner article mostly just repeats what is already documented.If you sprinkle the word "allegedly" a few times in that quote, I would agree with it entirely. As it is, that's the point of this discussion: we're discussing whether this claim is accurate, whether the sources are reliable, and whether the claim is WP:UNDUE. Stating your preferred conclusion on two of those issues is not an argument for that conclusion.
He's been the most honest about the group's inner workings, whereas no other members will confirm or deny the logs (besides whoever leaked them, and the leaker is clearly not comfortable with making themselves known).Again, stating that he's honest is not an argument that he's honest. Without a prior reputation for integrity, the only things we know about him are that he makes the claims he makes. For all we know, he only joined the group to dig up dirt on them, failed, and decided to type up a fake chat log instead, then 'leak' it to the Examiner, an outlet he knew would be sympathetic. Now, I'm not suggesting that's the case. I'm just looking for some evidence that fits less with that hypothesis than with the "Cheong is the one telling the truth" hypothesis. So far, the evidence could go either way. And since this is a BLP issue, that means we should leave it out. (This doesn't matter if this controversy gets picked up on by other, good sources. At that point, the allegations themselves will be notable enough for inclusion.)
24.84.155.22 ( talk) 20:55, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
Taking a look at the Washington Examiner editorial board and staff. There are several experienced journalists and editors there. I don't know what kind of fact checking it does generally. Looking at the article cited, we see that the writer (Ashe Scow) is listed as a "Commentary writer". I don't know what exactly this means, but perhaps it is similar to a columnist or opinion writer. The claim for which it is supposed to be a source is "suggest some members participated in doxing and harassment of Gamergate supporters while part of the group". That's a rather strong claim and has possible BLP implications. I would not use a sole source like the cited article for this claim. The Heatst source is probably fine with attribution: whether it should be included or not is to be decided on the talk page. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 22:30, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
if the claims themselves are notable enough to be considered prominant viewpoints-- Sure, but that "notable enough" would have to be established by better (or at least more mainstream sources) to include the voices of these authors. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 14:07, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
For example, the group discussed trying to contact the superior officer of a Purple Heart recipient who had expressed support of Gamergate to try to silence him. The group also discussed contacting Google in an attempt to get Justine Tunney fired after she also voiced support for Gamergate.. Unlike the interpretation of whether or not it was harassment, this is not an opinion of Ashe Schow; it's in the logs or it isn't. Rhoark ( talk) 16:24, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
Some perspectives that might help ground the assessment:
Rhoark ( talk) 21:06, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
and it can be proven to a degree that news organizations with a reputation for fact-checking can corroborate, then I'm sure we'll be reading about it soon in higher quality sources.Highly doubtful. 1. CON, itself, isn't very newsworthy outside of virtue signaling writers, or writers with personal connections to Quinn, Lifschitz, etc. 2. Because said writers care more about virtue signaling and/or are friends with one or more people involved in the CON chat leaks, they will never report on the leaks-- because it will cast the members of the group in a bad light-- and, as we've seen, that simply won't happen; nor will it be accepted here on Wikipedia, as the current situation is showing. The current sources on the CON article include at least one personal friend of Quinn et. al. (Leigh Alexander)-- which, in and of itself, should remove this as a reliable source. After all, is Alexander going to say anything negative about her friend? Also, every single source used in the CON article is simply sourcing all their info from CON. "They've helped people!" "Who can confirm that?" "CON said it! That's good enough!" Might as well only use Trump as a source for Trump and Clinton as a source for Clinton... you'd get the same amount of fact checking as is happening in the articles sourced on the main CON page. The articles sourced are little more than fluff pieces propping up CON as something beyond what it actually is. Supposedly, though, these are all outlets considered reliable because of their propensity for fact checking; correct? That is the argument that certain editors are using, isn't it? So, just 'Listening and Believing' what CON says about itself is fact checking, now? It's like using press releases as verifiable facts and discounting anything that discredits the press releases. The obvious political and idological bias of Wikipedia editors is showing, and that valued neutrality that Wikipedia strives for is now dead and buried when it comes to certain subjects.
Also, there has been arguments made that it doesn't violate BLP, mostly saying that the sourcing is solid enough that the likelihood of every source being either wrong or lying is incredibly unlikely.Frankly, that argument is completely ridiculous. It's either circular reasoning (the sources are strong because the sources are strong) or a bald-faced assertion (the sources are strong, period), but even if it wasn't, it's ignoring the very fact that this discussion is taking place: If the sources were that strong, this would have been an open-and-shut case. Furthermore, it ignores the actual problems people have with the sources: the author has a history of writing extremely conservative opinions, which introduces a strong bias. It doesn't do anything to diminish her opinions, but it casts serious doubt on her ability to be used to cite claims of fact. (This is true of writers with a liberal bias, as well). The other author, a blogger, is also in a position where the charges of bias are worth listening to. Again, his opinion is his opinion, and it's as valid as any other, but what he reports as fact is not necessarily fact. (Bias doesn't prevent us from using a source, but it absolutely should be considered when evaluating a source. For example, we wouldn't trust thinkprogress.org for claims of fact about Roger Ailes if those claims paint him in a bad light.) Add to that you have two editors here who've looked at the logs and contend that what these authors present as fact is not so. Add to that, we have another primary source claiming the logs have been edited. So it's not just a lack of evidence, but a small amount of evidence contrary to the assertion that the author's claims of facts are accurate.
It's either circular reasoning (the sources are strong because the sources are strong) or a bald-faced assertion (the sources are strong, period)". I disagree with this assessment, mostly because the reasons for the sources being strong were already given. The primary sources are strong because they come from people who were directly present in the chats, and they have no reason to be falsely implicating themselves in coordinating harassment and doxing. This is in addition to the chatlog, which is both extensive and heavily aligned with chronological events taking place at the time. The secondary source is strong for the reasons I outlined in my previous post.
it's ignoring the very fact that this discussion is taking place: If the sources were that strong, this would have been an open-and-shut case. But I gotta say, this also seems pretty circular. The sources aren't good enough is evident because we're discussing them, and there wouldn't be a discussion if they were good enough. Because wiki editors are never wrong, or act in bad faith? Keep in mind, the chat logs also document CON directly instructing established wiki editors to push changes on their behalf. The editors named (who were eventually blocked), along with the timing and nature of edits to the Gamergate page match up with what was discussed in the chatlog. I'm not implying that anyone here is in contact with those involved, just that it's not without precedent
Furthermore, it ignores the actual problems people have with the sources: the author has a history of writing extremely conservative opinions, which introduces a strong bias.Normally I would agree, if this were a political topic and the author was injecting conservative views into the article. However, the subject of the article doesn't relate to politics, and contains no conservative spin or viewpoints. At least, none that I can identify. Their opinions on current politics seems irrelevant and entirely absent from the article.
Add to that, we have another primary source claiming the logs have been edited.This is in reference to Randi Harper. Specifically, she said that "some are edited", the meaning of which is vague- but at the very least establishes that some were not edited. Notably, the section in which she tries to justify her actions in them, which is not something she would do if they were fake.
For example, we wouldn't trust thinkprogress.org for claims of fact about Roger Ailes if those claims paint him in a bad light.Normally we wouldn't, unless they did their due diligence and reached out to former employees under Roger Ailes to confirm the authenticity of something like leaked emails. Which many other outlets have, especially in the recent sexual harassment scandal. 73.13.28.182 ( talk) 21:26, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
I disagree with this assessment, mostly because the reasons for the sources being strong were already given.And countered. Are you contending that Randi did not indicate the logs were edited? Or that a disgruntled former member is under no COI with respect to the issue? Those are both huge problems with the rationale given, and whenever I bring them up, they're ignored, or countered with "but the sources are so strong!" I'm sorry, this is either circular logic, or simply restating one's point.
But I gotta say, this also seems pretty circular.No, you're missing the implication. I should have spelled it out better. I'm saying if the sources were strong, any arguments against them would have been shot down quickly. Instead, we have an ongoing discussion that's resulted in multiple blocks over the course of several days now. We also have unanswered criticisms of the sources, and several defenses of the source consisted of blatant falsehoods (claiming that the Examiner source wasn't an opinion piece, for example). I've seen numerous situations where strong sources were opposed for ideological reasons, and they tend to end pretty quickly because eventually, the opposing side runs into a wall they can't climb. They run out of arguments and either turn to incivility and get blocked or give up. I can't speak for others, but again: I have no dog in this fight. My concern is only for the quality of the article and our adherence to WP policy. I have no problem believing that anyone involved in CON could have engaged in doxing themselves, nor do I have any desire to protect them. I'm just as happy to lose this argument as I am to win it. My concern over the quality of the sources is based on their applicability to the BLP issues here.
Normally I would agree, if this were a political topic and the author was injecting conservative views into the article.Conservatism and liberalism extend to more than just politics. Perhaps I should have said "right-wing" rather than conservative: Gamergaters are obviously right wing, just as the SJWs (I don't mean that pejoratively, just for lack of a better term) are obviously left wing. In fact, I'm sure I should, because conservatism and liberalism aren't quite the same things, and I don't think they apply here. So consider this a correction.
Notably, the section in which she tries to justify her actions in them, which is not something she would do if they were fake.That's not true. I've recently been accused of ordering someone to never disagree with me. The allegation was obviously false to everyone who heard it, yet I still have typed several paragraphs (significantly more than Randi) justifying my actions.
Normally we wouldn't, unless they did their due diligence...Even then, I wouldn't even consider citing them for that. If they are right, less biased news outlets would pick up the story, and we could run with those sources. To analogize that back to this section, it's as if TP claimed to have smoking gun proof in the form of emails that Ailes molests Catholic school girls, and a former employee verifying said emails, yet NPR and CNN never once mention the story. At that point, we're not relying on TPs editorial process to vet their stories so much as we are beginning to question whether they were ever reliable for any use. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 02:52, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
Gamergaters are obviously right wingAre they? Before Bernie Sanders dropped out of the race, many of the same people now claiming that Gamergate supporters are now 'alt right' were claiming the same people were 'Bernie Bros'. So, which is it? Are they right wing extremists, or are they so far to the left (In US political terms, Sanders would be considered right of center in Europe) that they support Sanders' ideal of a more socialist vision of America? They cannot be both at the same time.
If they are right, less biased news outlets would pick up the story, and we could run with those sources.You are using a fallacy that there are many, if any unbiased sources on the subject of GamerGate. As we have seen, there are very few unbiased sources on this issue. You previously mentioned Kotaku as a source, if they wrote about these logs. However, many of the writers at Kotaku are friends with people in the chat logs, including Quinn and Lifschitz-- as well as one of the writers being one of the focal points of the controversy, Nathan Grayson, who slept with Quinn in the past. So, please, tell me honestly if they are going to write anything bad about them or a group they are involved with. The very first 'reliable source' used in the CON article is penned by Leigh Alexander, who is both part of the whole GamerGate controversy, and a personal friend of more than one person involved in Crash Override Network. Are you going to say Alexander is an unbiased writer on the subject? The other 'reliable sources' used in the CON article read like press releases for CON, as well-- they are simply using quotes and talking points given to them by CON members as their sole basis for the articles. I was unaware that press releases and fluff pieces were considered reliable sources, now.
And countered. Are you contending that Randi did not indicate the logs were edited? Or that a disgruntled former member is under no COI with respect to the issue?I've contended that Randi didn't indicate what the nature of the edit was, so it's impossible to know if the content itself was altered in any way, or just the formatting. All we can definitively conclude from her statements is that parts were unedited, specifically the portion where she posts the facebook profiles of Gamergate supporters and publicly calling for employers to blacklist them. I've also explained why Cheong is under no COI- he's no longer a part of the organization and thus has no personal or professional stake in defending it's reputation, unlike the current members. You floated a theory in which Cheong might have hypothetically joined in order to find dirt, then inexplicably quit, and then nearly a year later created months worth of fake chatlogs. I explained why this was highly unlikely, and that there was no evidence of it, so it wasn't worth consideration. I'm sorry if you missed it, I will try to be clearer in the future
Conservatism and liberalism extend to more than just politics. Perhaps I should have said "right-wing" rather than conservative: Gamergaters are obviously right wing, just as the SJWsOn that note, I don't see anything in the Examiner article that shows a right-wing bias, or advocacy of any conservative position. Again, it would be helpful to point out where the author has injected their opinion, but they seemed to have left it at the door in favor of a simple recounting of events, backed by primary sources. On the question of Gamergate being right-wing, all available data on their political affiliations shows most of them identifying as leftist or liberal. Of the Gamergate members who voted in the last US election, Obama supporters outnumbered Romney supporters by 4:1. To date I haven't seen any polls showing conservatives or right-wingers to be more than a small minority, but maybe you have some. https://www.allthink.com/1588852
Even then, I wouldn't even consider citing them for that. If they are right, less biased news outlets would pick up the story, and we could run with those sources.This is less of an argument against verifiability than it is against notability. But the Washington Examiner isn't any more biased on the subject than the outlets already cited in the article, many of which have personal connections to Crash Override Network and their founders.
That's not true. I've recently been accused of ordering someone to never disagree with me. The allegation was obviously false to everyone who heard it, yet I still have typed several paragraphs (significantly more than Randi) justifying my actions.This is a bit confusing to read. You spent time justifying actions which you didn't do? Or did you deny ordering someone to disagree with you? Anyway, if the logs were fake, Randi Harper would simply state that the quotes attributed to her were fake, spending time explaining why she said the things she said in the chatlogs. 73.13.28.182 ( talk) 22:09, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
So let's sum up: we're good with the Washington Examiner as a source, right? Since it's used on many other pages, and on the scale of reliable sources is far better than most of the existing sourcing on the page in question.
2601:602:9802:99B2:B8B7:8167:6D6E:F9D6 (
talk) 02:48, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
We should probably break up this disgusting thread with a new section, it's hard to read. Now that there's nothing more to be said and we're simply waiting for everyone to forget about this article before pretending like nothing ever happened maybe we could play a game? Maybe we could do that thing where we all say a sentence and try to make a story out of it. What do you guys even normally do on this page? is this just where citations go to die? 24.84.155.22 ( talk) 04:30, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
The instructions at the top of this page are clear. Applying them here, this information needs to be provided:
Note the last sentence.
As this is a very contentious topic, expect things to proceed slowly as debate takes place. This debate needs to be free of snark, aspersions, or attacks. Editors not adhering to this requirement should expect arbcom enforcement blocks. -- NeilN talk to me 18:14, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
Content The disputed text is in this diff:
Sources The primary sources are linked from here:
Secondary sources include Ian Miles Cheong who was a member of the Crash Override Network:
A report by Ashe Schow:
William Usher is self-published but has followed the subject closely and any of his claims can be double checked against the logs:
Hope that helps. 50.196.177.155 ( talk) 21:24, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
Also here's Randi Harper confirming the origin of the leaks (note: the logs cover an extensive period of time): https://twitter.com/randileeharper/status/769662582890168320 I just assumed you would have already read what was written and didn't need it spoonfed, sorry my mistake. 24.84.155.22 ( talk) 21:26, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
Note for editors. [43] -- NeilN talk to me 22:38, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 210 | Archive 211 | Archive 212 | Archive 213 | Archive 214 | Archive 215 | → | Archive 220 |
John Lockley is sourced largely with articles that are no longer available online, but that have been archived in some form on the subject's personal sites: johnlockley.com and african-shaman.com. In the former case, these are pdf scans of the originals. But in the second, the articles have been retyped, so there is no way of checking if they are true to the originals. There are a couple of users that want all these sources, even those retyped onto the personal site, to be considered secondary sources, and one of the users is removing the flag on the page for over-reliance on primary sources: [1]. They have also insisted on inserting links to multiple pages from the subject's same personal site as independent "Further Reading" links (in same diff above). User has tended to edit war in the past over this article. I would appreciate more eyes on this situation. Thanks. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 23:18, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
If John Lockley is notable in Africa, and/or Internationally, why is this en-wiki article the only one about him? As noted above by @ Tiptoethrutheminefield: [6], [7] and myself: [8], I think the lack of notability issues here are clear. I propose Lockley is only notable to a rather small group of English-speakers who frequent the type of workshops Lockley offers. Do folks think we can agree on a merge/redirect here or should we take this to AfD? (And yes, I know I could just go ahead and do this, but as Mycelium has been contentious and prone to revert-warring in the past, and almost no one pays attention to the article in question, I am seeking consensus as long as we finally have a few people looking at it now :) ) - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 17:06, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
A curious issue this, but I've encountered this guy adding a review to a film article, citing "eminent author and critic Shaiju Mathew" and his blog chaiwithshai.com. I very strongly suspect a COI between the contributing editor and the "eminent author and critic", beginning with the homophone between Shai and Shy, but I also note that many of this user's edits seem to revolve around Shaiju Mathew, like this edit (sorry, only Admins will be able to see it) where we learn that Arjun Mathew and Shaiju Mathew are the same person. (And that he couldn't make it in the world of song in part because of his "laid back attitude"...)
Anyhow, I'm digressing for entertainment purposes.
The question is this: Should we consider his blog a reliable source? Shaiju Mathew has an article, so he is presumably notable. The article claims Mathew is "a well known movie critic and writes extensively for various newspapers and magazines". As I poke through some articles found through the Indian news search, I don't quickly find anything that suggests he's a known critic. That doesn't mean he's not, only that I can't find anything. He might very well be a writer, he might very well be notable, but would we consider his blog a worthwhile source for film critiques? Thanks. Cyphoidbomb ( talk) 17:36, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
I see it's used in a number of articles. [9]. Besides any issues about using such a site as a source, this (Redacted) per WP:COPYVIOEL seems to be a copyvio download of a book still in copyright. Doug Weller talk 10:08, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
We're down to 4 articles now. (I think 11 may have been an underestimate; I feel sure I removed more):
John G. Schmitz (used as primary source for an obit of the article subject), H. Keith Thompson (used as a primary source to show article subject is a writer for the Journal of Historical Review), Geoff Muirden (used as a primary source to show article subject is a reviewer), and Germar Rudolf (used as a primary source for article subject's experiments on "cell phones in airliners").
None of these appear to be links to copyvio. There are also 72 other links in Talk, User talk, Wikipedia namespaces. I'll raise the question about WP:COPYVIOEL in these namespaces on WP:ELN. - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 07:36, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
Germar Rudolf, a disgustingly biased article that casts aside all notions of npov, but probably well protected against improvement. Tiptoethrutheminefield ( talk) 16:48, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
Fellow editors, Is Heatstreet ( http://heatst.com) a reliable source for attributed opinion? The publisher as listed at the site is Dow Jones & Company, Inc. The content of the site appears to include opinion pieces from a range of persons. Specific context for the question is this piece, by games journalist Ian Miles Cheong. The question here relates strictly to reliability of the source; questions on the noteworthiness of the opinion, neutrality of inclusion, or other aspects being a matter for article Talk pages. - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 23:47, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
The salient rule is that opinions are almost always reliable sources for opinions cited and used as opinion. The only issue would be whether the person is notable in the field in which he is expressing opinions, and, at first glance, that appears to be the case. And opinions held by notable persons are not "fact checked" nor is "fact checking" a requirement for use of opinions. By the way, trying to find opinions which are absolutely neutral would rule out opinions on Wikipedia in the first place. Which might not be a bad idea, but is not what Wikipedia policy goes by. Collect ( talk) 09:42, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
The claim that the results of the Referendum of the United Kingdom on the Membership of the United Kingdom in the European Union (2016), are "not legally binding", is tainted, or, is put into doubt by the fact that it was NEVER actually widely made (and was certainly never made on THIS article, here, on Wikipedia, and cited) BEFORE the (provisional) final results were announced and confirmed by the national chief Returning Officer from the Electoral Commission, in Manchester, based in one of the premises of Manchester City Council, sometime on June the 24th..
One of the last "clean" versions of the article, and the last version dated June the 23rd..
This question is in fact not first raised by me, but by Peter Lilley MP (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Conservative), who said ( Hansard: House of Commons; 5 September 2016; Volume 614), by his speech in the debate (regarding the e-Petition Number 131215; relating to EU referendum rules ),
"The final argument I want to deal with is that the referendum was only advisory. I debated daily with remainers—sometimes three times a day—but not once did a remain opponent say to the audience, “Oh by the way, this referendum is just advisory. If you give us the wrong advice we will ignore the result and remain in the EU anyway or perhaps call another referendum or vote against application of article 50 and the referendum result until we get the right result.” Did any Opposition Member say that to an audience and can they give me chapter and verse of them saying that they would treat the result as advisory and ignore it if they did not like it? Not one of them did. Now they are pretending that the whole thing was advisory. I forget which hon. Member said that was made clear during the debate.
"On the contrary, the then Foreign Secretary, who introduced the Referendum Bill, said that it was giving the decision to the British people. When launching the campaign, the Prime Minister said:
""This is a straight democratic decision—staying in or leaving—and no Government can ignore that. Having a second renegotiation followed by a second referendum is not on the ballot paper. For a Prime Minister to ignore the express will of the British people to leave the EU would be not just wrong, but undemocratic." —(Official Report, 22 February 2016; Vol. 606, c. 24.)
"It was spelled out at the beginning of the referendum debate and again and again during it that this was a decisive choice for the British people. If we ignore that choice now and treat the British people with contempt, we will undermine their respect for democracy and prove how little faith we have in it."
Hansard transcripts
Recordings of proceedings in audio and video, or Audio-only
Recordings of proceedings (Audio-only)
David Lammy MP (Tottenham) (Labour) had indeed, on the same debate, cited the Briefing Paper issued by the House of Commons Library. He, however, erred, in that he either omitted by oversight, or he conveniently, for his own purpose, deliberately ignored and omitted the disclaimer, at the end of the document, which clearly states, at the end (Page 33 of 33 pages according to the Printers), that,
"Disclaimer - This information is provided to Members of Parliament in support of their parliamentary duties. It is a general briefing only and should not be relied on as a substitute for specific advice. The House of Commons or the author(s) shall not be liable for any errors or omissions, or for any loss or damage of any kind arising from its use, and may remove, vary or amend any information at any time without prior notice."
Bill documents — European Union Referendum Act 2015 (2015 c. 36)
European Union Referendum Bill 2015-16 (Briefing Paper) (Number 07212, 3 June 2015) (summary)
(in full) (.PDF)
(cached) (Google)
Essentially, the cited Brief Paper cannot be used or otherwise cited as an acceptable or reliable legal advice. -- 87.102.116.36 ( talk) 00:12, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
Hello,
I'd like to know if there have been any discussions about whether we can use Buzzfeed articles as sources. I notice that Buzzfeed is being used on various pages, but I'd like to know if there is any clear policy about it. Of course, by "Buzzfeed articles", I mean actual articles by real writers, i.e. legitimate content, and not clickbait pages. Jean-Jacques Georges ( talk) 14:28, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
My question is whether I can use this source on the matter of mysterious disappearance of Musa al-Sadr. I ask this because what is mentioned in the source on this page is very counter intuitive in that it claims the famous Shia figure Mohammad Beheshti conspired his death with Qaddafi.-- Kazemita1 ( talk) 12:22, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
With Wikipedia:Ignore all rules, the definition of reliable sources has become a mess of confusion.
I would like to know the answers to these, so I can add/remove respective content in Wikipedia articles, as per answers written here. More specifically, New World Order (conspiracy theory), Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, PRISM (surveillance program), Windows 10, Aam Aadmi Party, Democratic Party (United States), etc.
Thank You -- Ne0 ( talk) 16:36, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
So, from what I understand, I can use WP:IAR to bypass WP:MEDRS, and revive this article as common knowledge. Am I right ?No. Not even remotely. I gave an example where a broad spectrum of empirical data all points to a very specific claim being true. You can't go from that to "replace MEDRS sources with common knowledge to make a new article". There's a huge gap between empirical data and 'common knowledge'. The former is un-debatable, the latter is almost always just plain wrong.
An AFP report with the incredibly optimistic headline "Facebook, Twitter join coalition to improve online news" lists several news organizations as users of a third-party fact-checking service:
Be aware that reports from these organizations may no longer have sufficient internal fact-checking, and factual errors may propagate throughout the entire network. 50.196.177.155 ( talk) 20:19, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
In point of fact, the NYT has no actual "fact checkers" as employees, and few places have any "fact checkers" as employees. The reference given says
Using the "social web" is the issue, and there is no doubt that there is no general fact-checking done on the "social web." Collect ( talk) 13:57, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
1. Sources:
2. Article: Trac
3. Statement that the source is supporting: Trac meets Wikipedia's notability guidelines.
These were rejected because "How to books are not independent of the subject", "is simply a doctoral thesis", "is a mention to explain why they used it, not to say it's the best", "they're not reliable sources". Wikipedia:Notability_(software) says "A computer program can usually be presumed to be notable if [...] It is the subject of multiple printed third-party manuals, instruction books [...]" and "It is reasonable to allow relatively informal sources for free and open-source software". Wikipedia:Notability_(organizations_and_companies)#cite_ref-fourexamples_4-0 says "Microsoft Word satisfies this criterion because people who are wholly independent of Microsoft have written books about it." For the purpose of establishing notability of the Trac software, these all seem reliable to me as they are independent from the authors of the Trac software. Cgbuff ( talk) 17:28, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
As the subject states, is it appropriate to dispute the credibility or reliability of a particular claim within an otherwise reliable source? I assume that it is, since this Noticeboard clearly states the following: Many sources are reliable for statement "X" but unreliable for statement "Y". This issue was raised during a discussion at the John A. McDougall talkpage, specifically regarding a source which is cited to support the claim that the McDougall Plan is a "fad diet", among the other claims supported by the source. The claims are on the John A. McDougall article and the specific claims, from the lead, are as follows:
McDougall's diet—The McDougall Plan—has been categorized as a fad diet that carries some disadvantages, such as a boring food choice and the risk of feeling hungry.
The claims are again stated in John A. McDougall § McDougall Plan criticism as follows:
McDougall's namesake diet, The McDougall Plan, has been categorized as a fad diet with possible disadvantages including a boring food choice, flatulence, and the risk of feeling hungry.
The source in question is Essential Concepts for Healthy Living (6th Edition) by Sandra Alters and Wendy Schiff; it was published by Jones & Bartlett Learning in 2012. The specific claims are being supported by page 327 of this source, wherein the McDougall Plan is listed as a "fad diet". No explanation or justification is given for this classification, however, and the source cited in the textbook—Wardlaw's Perspectives in Nutrition (8th Edition) by Carol Byrd-Bredbenner, Donna Beshgetoor, Gaile Moe, and Jacqueline Berning; published by McGraw-Hill Education in 2009—does not technically classify the McDougall Plan as a "fad diet".
Basically, these claims, particularly that the McDougall Plan is a "fad diet", are supported by a tertiary source which is itself supported by a tertiary source that isn't supported by any secondary source or primary. This classification appears to be the unsubstantiated opinions of the authors based on a dubious reading of their own source (in which case WP:RSOPINION applies, if nothing else). Although this source may be otherwise reliable for other claims, my dispute is that the source is unreliable—or at least unsatisfactory—to support these specific claims, or at least the claim that the McDougall Plan is a "fad diet". Please peruse my full position and further discussion about the topic in the article's talkpage.
Given this context, would this issue be one of a reliable source being unreliable for a particular claim (or set of claims)? If not, under which conditions might that occur, if at all? I would assume that anything claimed in a reliable source is not automatically assumed to be reliable and credible simply by virtue of the source itself being reliable and credible, but that Wikipedians must determine whether the source is reliable and strong enough for that particular claim, as well. If I'm mistaken on this, then please do correct me.
For the record, I have also submitted reports on the Neutral Point of View Noticeboard and Biographies of Living Persons Noticeboard, which can be found here and here, respectively. Alexbrn has also submitted a report to the Fringe Theories Noticeboard, which can be found here. ― Nøkkenbuer ( talk • contribs) 21:23, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
P.S. I forgot all the skills that go into the related infrastructure that makes your computer and WP possible. Power generation, construction, business, government, etc... The idea that we never trust an expert unless they prove themselves is a black hole of illogic. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 00:25, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
In the article on Tony Gardiner ( /info/en/?search=Tony_Gardiner), his Olympiad predecessor is given as Peter Shiu. While this information is correct, the Peter Shiu in question is Mathematician Peter Man-Kit Shiu ( http://www.genealogy.ams.org/id.php?id=27070) as opposed to the Peter Shiu linked to who is the Vice Chairman of the Liberal Party in Hong Kong ( /info/en/?search=Peter_Shiu). --— Preceding unsigned comment added by Aap03102 ( talk • contribs) 10:56, September 7, 2016 (UTC)
This article [1] published in The News International has no markings to indicate whether it is a news item or an opinion column. Can you take a look and give me your view? It has been used on the 2016 Uri attack page in this edit. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 11:28, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
References
Should http://blavatskyarchives.com/ be considered a reliable source? It is used in the article Charles Webster Leadbeater to support a variety of assertions. Dlabtot ( talk) 07:53, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
Is this] which is named a diploma a reliable source for claims about Pleistocene lakes in South America? Jo-Jo Eumerus ( talk, contributions) 14:51, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for the input so far. For the record I was not asking about a specific claim, just whether that source in general could be used to build the article currently sandboxed at User:Jo-Jo Eumerus/Lake Tauca per WP:MINE. Jo-Jo Eumerus ( talk, contributions) 15:17, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
I'm sure the The Daily Telegraph has been discussed before, but I don't know the consensus. I did come across a piece that I thought was pretty appalling. It's used to ref a fact over at Murder of Seth Rich.
It's not exactly a BLP since the person's dead, but the "for people who have recently died" clause applies since his family has made requests regarding publicity about the matter. So it's a sensitive issue, and its an extremely sensitive fact (it implies that the victim may have been a criminal and was assassinated by a hitman rather than killed in a random robbery). The passage, taken from this piece, involves the motive for the Murder of Seth Rich (he was pretty clearly murdered in a botched robbery but some people have trolled that he was assassinated) and says:
which we can deconstruct as
The third point is implied. Otherwise there's no need to mention the second point, and there's especially no need to use the word "but" to preface the second point. The use of "but" clearly presents the third point by clear inference.
This sure looks like editorializing on the part of The Daily Telegraph, since common sense tells us that if you're robbing someone, and it goes bad and you shoot the person (on the public street! gunshots are loud!) your number one thought would be to get the fuck away fast rather than pawing over his body. (I don't have a ref proving that, but the burden would be on an editor trying to prove the highly counter-intuitive proposition, I would think.)
(FWIW there's zero evidence of an assassination, and no disinterested reasonable person has suggested this; it's purely a " Vince Foster murder" type political ploy.)
The entire Telegraph piece looks pretty sensationalist to me, and while its presented as a straight news story their POV about the matter -- an extremely fringe POV -- is pretty much in evidence. So my question is, is the Telegraph any good generally for ref'ing sensitive contentious (kind of BLP-ish even) facts, and what about this one in particular? Herostratus ( talk) 14:51, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
To cut a long story short, my general thoughts on newspaper sources is they are okay as a "stand-in" source or to flesh out detail, but generally I would not choose it over as a critically acclaimed book or thoroughly researched report written ten years after the event which may not exist. The Telegraph has historically had a pro-Conservative bias (which is why it's nicknamed the Torygraph) but otherwise is considered a broadsheet-style paper like the Times and Guardian with a solid reputation of fact-checking and minimum sensationalism. Of course, that doesn't imply everything they say is true or accurate, like any newspaper. Reading the piece linked here, I immediately get the impression it is calling the Wikileaks events a conspiracy theory without making any serious attempt to show the reader it is true. With such a small article, it is probably not a prominent enough viewpoint to include right now, until there's any more detail that can be fleshed out from other sources. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 09:47, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
Quite agree that The Telegraph is one of the UK newspapers where one would least expect to see POV issues (unless something was quoted directly from the Editorial). Robbery is only successful if something is taken, although in UK there is the separate offence of "Assault with intent to rob", see [19]. So I see no problem at all. The Telegraph, like any UK source reporting an ongoing crime investigation, is dependent on what the police tells it and this is often not a full (or even always consistent) account of what may have occurred. But this happened in the US, of course, so the situation may be totally different and/or something may have been "lost in translation"? Martinevans123 ( talk) 10:06, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
This noticeoboard is of no value if it's the same editors coming here from the article talk page. The idea is to get independent viewpoints. The issue at hand on the talk page is why we should use the Telegraph when there are unquestionably better sources such as the Washington Post for the facts presented in the article text. The Telegraph insinuates all the conspiracy and anti-Clinton mongering by incorporating and pointing to that much weaker, redundant reference. SPECIFICO talk 21:10, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
Curiosity took me to have a look at the article. I think there has been a lot of troubling editing going on there, and a troubling distortion of Wikipedia guidelines (such as BLP and consensus) to support that editing. We have some of that distortion revealed in the initial post here: "This sure looks like editorializing on the part of The Daily Telegraph" given as a reason to exclude the source. However, sources can editorialize as much as they want, the Wikipedia guidelines forbidding editorializing is about Wikipedia editors editorializing the content of sources. My feeling is that this article has been censored to the point that the subject's notability has been entirely removed - it would now almost qualify as an AfD candidate. The "speculation / conspiracy" stuff that some editors working on it are wanting to exclude [22] is what makes the subject notable - remove it and all we have left is a non-notable murder. I think the article urgently needs some new pairs of editorial eyes to look at it. Tiptoethrutheminefield ( talk) 21:03, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
Counting noses and arguments, it looks like the consensus is that the Daily Telegraph is a reliable and neutral source generally and in this instance in particular, and very much thanks to my colleauges who took the time and effort to help out here. Herostratus ( talk) 17:19, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
There seems to be some concern about "How do we know what we know about #Gamergate?" in the CJR. The question does not concern its use in the article, but on whether its description of the landscape of other publications on the topic is a significant resource for informing article structure. That discussion is here. I don't quite understand the objections, but they apparently pertain in part to the qualifications of the author, Chris Ip. The article has been discussed once before on RSN. Rhoark ( talk) 02:09, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
Some relevant info: It should be noted that this source does not actually appear in the CJR proper - rather, it's web-only content on the CJR's "behind the news" blog. So WP:NEWSBLOG (and it's requirement that such sources should be "used with caution") would seem to apply. It may also be relevant that it was written by one of the CJR's Delacorte Fellows, which means that he was a recent journalism school grad, basically doing a year-long work experience/internship at CJR, when he wrote this. I did my best to figure out what Chris Ip does now, but he does not seem to be currently working as a journalist, or to have done much journalistic writing since his stint at the CJR - at least that's what his own website appears to suggest.
Not saying any of that necessarily makes the source unusable - but it certainly affects its weight. This wasn't written by a particularly experienced or well-known journalist, so whatever weight it carries comes from it's appearance on the CJR's blog. Fyddlestix ( talk) 04:50, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
The editors opposed to Miriyam Aouragh’s inclusion support the retention of Matthias Küntzel. I support the retention of both. She is an Arabist, qualified formally in the topic area: he has no technical background in Middle Eastern studies, no knowledge of Arabic, and is strongly criticized by German Arabists as incompetent. For those who cannot read German, the German wiki states he is a 'publicist' and several of the most prominent German Arabists dismiss his books, published by such distinguished publishing houses as Elephanten Press and Telos Press. One even summed his tirades up as 'grotesk verzerrt' (grotesquely distorted'). He's not cited in the serious scholarly literature on Islam, as opposed to be frequently cited in the polemical literature.
(a) wiki policy on RS does not appear in my view to be applied neutrally here, since the criteria being applied vary according to the position taken by the scholar in question: an Arabist with a university post is excluded, a non-Arabist with a university position is accepted, from a section dealing with Achcar's views and their reception. (b) All that concerns me is to hear from neutral third party experts here whether or not Miriyam Aouragh, used already with attribution, is a reliable source for a review of a book by Gilbert Achcar? Nishidani ( talk) 19:21, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
As No More Mr Nice Guy writes, Küntzel is a published by academic sources on this exact topic. The virtually unknown Ms. Aouragh is published in an extremist group blog - a source explictly disallowed by WP:V. I have little to add to Nice Guy's summary, but I will correct the (typical) misrepresentations by Nishidani. Aouragh is not an "Arabist" - here is her bio on the U of Westminster site [25]- it doesn't use that word, even once, and here is the bio she had on Oxfords Internet Institute - [26] which also does not use that descriptor. Both sites describe her as having a background in anthropology, and current interests in Internet and New Media. This is also what she teaches (or rather, taught, a few years ago. It does not appear that she currently has a teaching role) at UoW - "Media, Activism & Censorship". Her research interests are likewise described as "Centre for Social Media Research", "Arab Media" and" 'New Media-New Politics". At OII, her research interests were "virtual mobility, online empowerment, grassroots activism, Internet and Arab revolutions, construction of online exiled communities". None of this is even remotely related to the relationship between Nazism and antisemitism in the Arab world. Epson Salts ( talk) 00:55, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
If you had read the review (I just did), and if you knew anything about academic writing, you'd recognize that this review is written by someone who obviously knows her stuff, including historical developments, major academic and other opinions on history, and the various critiques from various angles of those opinions and interpretations. I note also that you (deliberately?) cite only "social media and internet activism", which of course are taking place in a context--that of the Arab Spring in Lebanon, Palestine, and Jordan, a range of events that one cannot understand without a thorough grounding in the history of that region, including colonialism, two World Wars, the competition and cooperation between three major religions, etc. She got a Ph.D. in that area from a pretty decent university. Come get a graduate degree, and you'll see how much you need to know. Now, I understand that you don't like this person's politics and activism, but that doesn't make them wrong or, for the present discussion, unqualified. Drmies ( talk) 03:11, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
(e/c):::Just a slight correction there Drmies if you will allow me. There was no Arab spring in Palestine, as that is Israel, a haven of democracy, free speech, relative peace and sanity in a region gone insane. If you are referring to the Palestinian Territories, there has been no spring there, but unfortunately a repressive government holding on to power, with no press freedom or even a timeframe for the next elections. Abbas has been de facto strongman since 2006. The Arab Spring phenomena of 2010 has turned into an ice age, the ice splattered with hundreds of thousands of dead. See Syria, as we all do daily, barrel bombs, chlorine vapor and all. Just a gentle correction. Simon. Irondome ( talk) 03:38, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
Aouragh's review is too partisan for my liking. But Künstel's review is also highly partisan, and he is also known as an activist at one edge of the spectrum. Künstel also has a COI: Achcar derided him as "an 'expert' on Islamic questions who does not know Arabic" and called his book a "fantasy-based narrative pasted together out of secondary sources and third-hand reports" (p163). I'd prefer to leave both of them out, with the second best option being to leave both of them in. Excluding Aouragh and including Künstel on the totally fatuous reasoning provided here would be a blatant NPOV violation. It is perfectly obvious that Aouragh is a qualified commentator whose expertise is related to the content of Achcar's book. Her review can be cited with attribution, or it can be removed along with Künstel's. Zero talk 09:31, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
Errr, sorry to perhaps burst your bubbles, but is the article in question actually by Miriyam Aouragh? I think it is not. Has nobody noticed that the embedded link in the author's name [27] actually leads to Philip Weiss, not Miriyam Aouragh, and that Miriyam Aouragh's name is crossed out in the publisher's newsletter reposted here [28], and that the article's author is given as Phillip Weiss elsewhere on the mondoweiss website [29]. And it is listed amongst his articles here [30]. Bubbles are all burst, I think. But at least Miriyam Aouragh got a Wikipedia article out of it. :) Tiptoethrutheminefield ( talk) 21:35, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
Miriyam Aouragh claims that article on her own web page and it is the sort of article she would write. The discrepancy is more likely a glitch made by Mondoweiss. The lists of articles by each author are probably generated automatically so only one editing error was needed. The page with crossings out does not just cross out her name but also crosses out the title, so it says nothing about authorship. On balance the evidence that Aouragh wrote it is much stronger than the contrary. Zero talk 03:36, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
In the AfD for The Latin Testament Project there's an editor who is arguing for various sources as a sign of notability. Many of them are unusable, such as a personal email by someone asking to use text from one of the books in the project, as that's a SPS at best. However the email states that the person is going to use that text in a book published through the University Press of the Catholic University of Lublin, which looks like it also goes by the name of Wydawnictwo KUL, at least via their URL.
I'm not familiar with this like I would be the Yale University press, but it offhand seems like it should be usable given the university's ranking in Poland. What say you guys? This one is iffy since I've not familiar with the publisher and I know that being a university press isn't always an automatic seal of usability. Their books do seem to get referenced here and there. I don't see a lot, but then we also have to take the language barrier into consideration. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 15:04, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
We are currently having a discussion (at Talk:2016_Uri_attack#Kashmir_unrest) on what sort of background to include for the 2016 Uri attack article. I have found that BBC News, New York Times, The Telegraph, LA Times, Washington Post all mention 2016 Kashmir unrest, and the 70-80 people killed in it, in their coverage of the Uri attack. User:Kautilya3, however, has implied that these sources are not very reliable and instead suggested using The Diplomat (specifically this article) as a more reliable source for sourcing the events preceding the attack. While I do not deny the reliability of The Diplomat (while noting that all opinions should be attributed and not stated as fact), I do think that all the sources I mentioned above (NYT and BBC) are also reliable enough to be used. VR talk 23:33, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
It's just a hypothetical at the moment, but Good Friday#Ireland currently cites this article from the generally respectable Irish Independent. I wanted to rewrite the sentence to fully represent what the source says, but would have trouble doing so without somewhat altering the structure of the section and perhaps lending undue weight to a recent (mostly 2016, it seems) controversy surrounding a ban on the sale of alcohol. If I were to do so, I might quote Donall O'Keeffe, whom the article quotes as saying the ban "amounted to discrimination against the licensed trade and made no financial sense". It's a really minor issue, but technically the two verbs should be in square-brackets, as it's obvious he wasn't speaking in the past tense ( this source gives what look like his actual words, ironically not in quotation marks).
But are we allowed correct our source on this kind of thing? Or should we follow our source in (probably, kinda-sorta) misquoting the person named? Or should we just find a better source?
Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 05:39, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
There is an ambiguity in use of primary and secondary sources in legal articles. Please comment at WikiProject Law here. Note I changed this initial comment after the comment by TheBlueCanoe below.
@ Stevietheman: was unsatisfied with the limited involvement with the last discussion that ended up sent to archives. At the advice of Cameron11598 I am opening up another RS/N section.
Following is the contents of the last discussion in entirety:
Digging around I found out that this "Rebel Magazine" is not even the Rebel Magazine we have an article on ( [31]), but instead some obscure Arizona Christian publication. A publication so non-notable that it doesn't even have an article on Wikipedia, and so poorly managed that none of their websites ( [32] [33]) are even functional (though they do have a facebook page [34]. Therefore this source should not be considered as reliable on any article, including Shaun_King_(activist) (which by the way is the only article trying to use it as a source). - 75.140.253.89 ( talk) 03:16, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Stevietheman insists on an RfC being made for this. He refuses to do that himself, despite my protests, that in my limited experience I don't feel comfortable doing that and even if I did, I have no idea which category to file it in. If the passing reader would please create an RfC for this, I guess it would be helpful?? - 75.140.253.89 ( talk) 05:05, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
I looked at the website and couldn't find any information regarding editorial oversight nor any names of anyone who runs the website. -- Bob K31416 ( talk) 15:05, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
[Please note that there is currently a discussion at
Talk:Shaun King (activist)#Attributing King for info on his father. --
Bob K31416 (
talk) 16:40, 22 September 2016 (UTC)]
Can Entertainment.ie be used as a reliable source? Specifically, this article reviewing one of Onnit's products. There is currently an RfC discussion on Onnit's talk page in which the entertainment.ie article's reliability may influence some decisions. Thanks! Meatsgains ( talk) 01:00, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
I nominated the Joachim Helbig article for community reassessment due to sourcing concerns:
Any additional input would be welcome. K.e.coffman ( talk) 02:59, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
Of the subjected article, can this can be considered a reliable source since it comes from odatv.com, it's not a blog or a forum but an online news site, they have published the interview with a descendant of the subjected woman. Is this website trustworthy? For the same subject, please advise if this second source can be considered reliable. The second one is archived from 2003, way before any TV serial aired. This source says that Mahidevran was married to Suleiman and was a Haseki sultan. Please advise for both sources. Worldandhistory ( talk) 15:45, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
Crash Override Network ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Gamergaters want to include information on this page which is sourced to a rightwing political rags The Washington Examiner and Heat Street.
jps ( talk) 12:17, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
that bias is prioritized such that the publications do not have a "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy"? Are you saying there are instances of inaccuracy and lack of fact-checking or that their bias is strong enough that a reputation for accuracy is irrelevant?
An August 2016 leak of chat logs among members who would go on to found the group suggested some participated in doxing and harassment of Gamergate supporters.[13] Ian Miles Cheong says he was a member of the chat group and that the logs are genuine.[14]
Are you saying there are instances of inaccuracy and lack of fact-checking or that their bias is strong enough that a reputation for accuracy is irrelevant?- Not the latter; more or less the former. The promotion of WP:FRINGE perspectives is part of what calls their reputation for accuracy into question -- I didn't mean that particular article did so. They do not have a good reputation for fact-checking and accuracy in the way they report on contentious political topics (including social topics with a conservative/liberal angle, like gamergate). Doesn't mean it's precluded from use, but if the only sources for a particular claim are sources that are those with a bias relevant to that claim, it's considered fringe. I'm talking more about use of these sources in general than this particular instance btw. (i.e. I'm more reacting Ryk72's comments than jps's). — Rhododendrites talk \\ 19:22, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
if the only sources for a particular claim are sources that are those with a bias relevant to that claim, it's considered fringe; nor evidence that this is a generally applied principle. Nor am I seeing anything in the history of this noticeboard which supports a consensus that the Washington Examiner promotes
WP:FRINGE perspectives. I think it's clear from our use of news sources generally that bias is not a disqualifier. More on this to follow, below. If there are supporting policies, guidelines or discussions demonstrating consensus, it would be appreciated if diffs to these could be provided. - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 00:03, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
I think the point here is fairly clear. There are a number of factual claims being made sourced to the Examiner:
Both of these points would need a fairly strong source to verify. The Washington Examiner is liable to simply repeat something they heard on the internet one day as they have done in the past. Additionally, we have the following opinion sourced to Heatstreet:
This is at least properly couched as an opinion rather than a fact, but how do we know Heatstreet has faithfully and reliably reported that this opinion was proffered? jps ( talk) 20:04, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
It is indeed hard to decide which is which in this topic area, and it is way beyond the scope of Wikipedia itself to try to disentangle this. We have in the past gotten into problems in Wikipedia including opinions of people who have a documented history of changing their minds. (I am reminded of an instance where Virginia Heffernan was quoted praising a particular climate denial blog and then she changed her mind on her verified twitter account which led to all sorts of contortions about how we should describe the state of affairs. The end result was to omit her opinions on the blog entirely.) As it is, I think this discussion is probably best left to the talkpage. jps ( talk) 14:45, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
Please read Argument from fallacy. You can utterly destroy every argument against inclusion, and still not make the case for inclusion. You need to make a positive argument for why we should keep the material. Also, your argument about Heat Street applies just as well the breitbart.com, one of the biggest non-RSs there is. A sources reliability is not determined by the success level of its founder, but by its reputation for fact checking and accuracy. Also, there would be nothing to say about the group if the article did not say what the group does. That's the thing with group of any sort, from your local D&D group to multinational corporations to charities: the most important thing about them is what they do. Disparaging the article for describing what CON does is like disparaging an article about a film for having a plot summary. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 19:44, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
Much more so than Gawker or the Mary Sue, which are widely cited on the main Gamergate controversy pageJust a note that isn't a true statement. The Mary Sue is cited once, and it's being used for the attributed opinion of Wu's and even then it's only being used as a primary source and backed up by a secondary source. Gawker is cited for a statement about Gawker saying they lost money. And Kotaku a Gawker publication is used in three places, once as an example of the "Death of an identity" article and twice for statements about Kotaku directly. — Strongjam ( talk) 19:51, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
Since you asked, the information improves the article by documenting that CON was conducting many of the same toxic conduct that they purported to oppose, directly in contrast to their mission statement.I see two problems with that. 1) Allegations against 'social justice' types are a dime a dozen. The internet is full of them. I'm sure there are allegations that Zoe Quinn has raped someone out there, somewhere. 2) Even if they are true, they serve as nothing more than an example of the "white hat hacking" the article already identifies the group as engaging in. Hacking is, by definition, the retrieval of private information, an act which accomplishes nothing if that information is not used somehow. Doxing is, by definition, the release of private information. It should be apparent enough from the mention of white hat hacking that doxing would be in their repertoire.
Cheong himself should be considered a reliable source, as he's been the most forthcoming about the actions of CON.That looks like a non-sequitur to me. How does Cheong being vocal (you used the word "forthcoming", but that word presumes he is already considered reliable) about CON make him more reliable? Generally speaking, in my experience, the most vocal critics of any group or person are usually the least trustworthy. I have a niece who is the most feminist person I know, and she thinks that all men are rapists by nature. The fact that she won't shut up about it doesn't make her views any less ridiculous.
The logs also align with the statements made soon after leaving CON months ago- that the group wasn't living up to their values and engaging in the same behavior that they claimed to oppose.That's something worth considering. Can you provide some sources where he said this soon after leaving CON?
Furthermore, the Washington Examiner article presents an objective description of the log's contents that we can see match the primary source being covered.While Cheong's endorsement helps, I find it to be insufficient, given the nature of this issue. I think there needs to be some independent affirmation that the logs are genuine, such as a current member of CON who is a participant attempting to 'explain' the logs, or to justify their use of such tactics. Barring that, we should not claim the logs are accurate. If we can find some coverage elsewhere, however, I'm open to keeping this claims, re-written to be in source voice. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 19:44, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
I see two problems with that. 1) Allegations against 'social justice' types are a dime a dozen. The internet is full of them.Thank you for the detailed reply. This is true, but allegations against anyone are common on the internet. We're not citing a 4chan post, these aren't third-party "allegations" but a direct documentation of the group's inner workings, verified by a primary source. The Washington Examiner article mostly just repeats what is already documented.
That looks like a non-sequitur to me. How does Cheong being vocal (you used the word "forthcoming", but that word presumes he is already considered reliable) about CON make him more reliable?. He's been the most honest about the group's inner workings, whereas no other members will confirm or deny the logs (besides whoever leaked them, and the leaker is clearly not comfortable with making themselves known). In the past he stated that he joined because he believed in the purported mission of CON, but grew disillusioned upon seeing that they were seeking to create more victims of doxing/harassment instead of supporting them. I'll need a moment to find his past statements, but he's talked about it at length in a blog post or two, without leaking specific chatlogs. Also unlike the current members of CON, Cheong no longer has a personal or professional stake in the group's reputation. He's also not the "most vocal" critic, just the most forthcoming. His recent verification of the logs was the most he's spoken about the group since announcing his departure. Aside from that, current members of CON have commented on the release of the logs, CON member Randi Harper was present in the logs and publicly attempted to justify her actions in a section. Specifically, the act of deliberately antagonize Gamergate members on twitter for the purpose of "distracting" them from a recent discovery that one CON member was an outspoken pedophile and child porn distributor in the years prior. The only sources for this are primary ones, so I shall not name the CON member in question. Source for Randi's verification of the logs: https://archive.is/h9Xfp 73.13.28.182 ( talk) 20:59, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
We're not citing a 4chan post, these aren't third-party "allegations" but a direct documentation of the group's inner workings, verified by a primary source. The Washington Examiner article mostly just repeats what is already documented.If you sprinkle the word "allegedly" a few times in that quote, I would agree with it entirely. As it is, that's the point of this discussion: we're discussing whether this claim is accurate, whether the sources are reliable, and whether the claim is WP:UNDUE. Stating your preferred conclusion on two of those issues is not an argument for that conclusion.
He's been the most honest about the group's inner workings, whereas no other members will confirm or deny the logs (besides whoever leaked them, and the leaker is clearly not comfortable with making themselves known).Again, stating that he's honest is not an argument that he's honest. Without a prior reputation for integrity, the only things we know about him are that he makes the claims he makes. For all we know, he only joined the group to dig up dirt on them, failed, and decided to type up a fake chat log instead, then 'leak' it to the Examiner, an outlet he knew would be sympathetic. Now, I'm not suggesting that's the case. I'm just looking for some evidence that fits less with that hypothesis than with the "Cheong is the one telling the truth" hypothesis. So far, the evidence could go either way. And since this is a BLP issue, that means we should leave it out. (This doesn't matter if this controversy gets picked up on by other, good sources. At that point, the allegations themselves will be notable enough for inclusion.)
24.84.155.22 ( talk) 20:55, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
Taking a look at the Washington Examiner editorial board and staff. There are several experienced journalists and editors there. I don't know what kind of fact checking it does generally. Looking at the article cited, we see that the writer (Ashe Scow) is listed as a "Commentary writer". I don't know what exactly this means, but perhaps it is similar to a columnist or opinion writer. The claim for which it is supposed to be a source is "suggest some members participated in doxing and harassment of Gamergate supporters while part of the group". That's a rather strong claim and has possible BLP implications. I would not use a sole source like the cited article for this claim. The Heatst source is probably fine with attribution: whether it should be included or not is to be decided on the talk page. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 22:30, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
if the claims themselves are notable enough to be considered prominant viewpoints-- Sure, but that "notable enough" would have to be established by better (or at least more mainstream sources) to include the voices of these authors. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 14:07, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
For example, the group discussed trying to contact the superior officer of a Purple Heart recipient who had expressed support of Gamergate to try to silence him. The group also discussed contacting Google in an attempt to get Justine Tunney fired after she also voiced support for Gamergate.. Unlike the interpretation of whether or not it was harassment, this is not an opinion of Ashe Schow; it's in the logs or it isn't. Rhoark ( talk) 16:24, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
Some perspectives that might help ground the assessment:
Rhoark ( talk) 21:06, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
and it can be proven to a degree that news organizations with a reputation for fact-checking can corroborate, then I'm sure we'll be reading about it soon in higher quality sources.Highly doubtful. 1. CON, itself, isn't very newsworthy outside of virtue signaling writers, or writers with personal connections to Quinn, Lifschitz, etc. 2. Because said writers care more about virtue signaling and/or are friends with one or more people involved in the CON chat leaks, they will never report on the leaks-- because it will cast the members of the group in a bad light-- and, as we've seen, that simply won't happen; nor will it be accepted here on Wikipedia, as the current situation is showing. The current sources on the CON article include at least one personal friend of Quinn et. al. (Leigh Alexander)-- which, in and of itself, should remove this as a reliable source. After all, is Alexander going to say anything negative about her friend? Also, every single source used in the CON article is simply sourcing all their info from CON. "They've helped people!" "Who can confirm that?" "CON said it! That's good enough!" Might as well only use Trump as a source for Trump and Clinton as a source for Clinton... you'd get the same amount of fact checking as is happening in the articles sourced on the main CON page. The articles sourced are little more than fluff pieces propping up CON as something beyond what it actually is. Supposedly, though, these are all outlets considered reliable because of their propensity for fact checking; correct? That is the argument that certain editors are using, isn't it? So, just 'Listening and Believing' what CON says about itself is fact checking, now? It's like using press releases as verifiable facts and discounting anything that discredits the press releases. The obvious political and idological bias of Wikipedia editors is showing, and that valued neutrality that Wikipedia strives for is now dead and buried when it comes to certain subjects.
Also, there has been arguments made that it doesn't violate BLP, mostly saying that the sourcing is solid enough that the likelihood of every source being either wrong or lying is incredibly unlikely.Frankly, that argument is completely ridiculous. It's either circular reasoning (the sources are strong because the sources are strong) or a bald-faced assertion (the sources are strong, period), but even if it wasn't, it's ignoring the very fact that this discussion is taking place: If the sources were that strong, this would have been an open-and-shut case. Furthermore, it ignores the actual problems people have with the sources: the author has a history of writing extremely conservative opinions, which introduces a strong bias. It doesn't do anything to diminish her opinions, but it casts serious doubt on her ability to be used to cite claims of fact. (This is true of writers with a liberal bias, as well). The other author, a blogger, is also in a position where the charges of bias are worth listening to. Again, his opinion is his opinion, and it's as valid as any other, but what he reports as fact is not necessarily fact. (Bias doesn't prevent us from using a source, but it absolutely should be considered when evaluating a source. For example, we wouldn't trust thinkprogress.org for claims of fact about Roger Ailes if those claims paint him in a bad light.) Add to that you have two editors here who've looked at the logs and contend that what these authors present as fact is not so. Add to that, we have another primary source claiming the logs have been edited. So it's not just a lack of evidence, but a small amount of evidence contrary to the assertion that the author's claims of facts are accurate.
It's either circular reasoning (the sources are strong because the sources are strong) or a bald-faced assertion (the sources are strong, period)". I disagree with this assessment, mostly because the reasons for the sources being strong were already given. The primary sources are strong because they come from people who were directly present in the chats, and they have no reason to be falsely implicating themselves in coordinating harassment and doxing. This is in addition to the chatlog, which is both extensive and heavily aligned with chronological events taking place at the time. The secondary source is strong for the reasons I outlined in my previous post.
it's ignoring the very fact that this discussion is taking place: If the sources were that strong, this would have been an open-and-shut case. But I gotta say, this also seems pretty circular. The sources aren't good enough is evident because we're discussing them, and there wouldn't be a discussion if they were good enough. Because wiki editors are never wrong, or act in bad faith? Keep in mind, the chat logs also document CON directly instructing established wiki editors to push changes on their behalf. The editors named (who were eventually blocked), along with the timing and nature of edits to the Gamergate page match up with what was discussed in the chatlog. I'm not implying that anyone here is in contact with those involved, just that it's not without precedent
Furthermore, it ignores the actual problems people have with the sources: the author has a history of writing extremely conservative opinions, which introduces a strong bias.Normally I would agree, if this were a political topic and the author was injecting conservative views into the article. However, the subject of the article doesn't relate to politics, and contains no conservative spin or viewpoints. At least, none that I can identify. Their opinions on current politics seems irrelevant and entirely absent from the article.
Add to that, we have another primary source claiming the logs have been edited.This is in reference to Randi Harper. Specifically, she said that "some are edited", the meaning of which is vague- but at the very least establishes that some were not edited. Notably, the section in which she tries to justify her actions in them, which is not something she would do if they were fake.
For example, we wouldn't trust thinkprogress.org for claims of fact about Roger Ailes if those claims paint him in a bad light.Normally we wouldn't, unless they did their due diligence and reached out to former employees under Roger Ailes to confirm the authenticity of something like leaked emails. Which many other outlets have, especially in the recent sexual harassment scandal. 73.13.28.182 ( talk) 21:26, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
I disagree with this assessment, mostly because the reasons for the sources being strong were already given.And countered. Are you contending that Randi did not indicate the logs were edited? Or that a disgruntled former member is under no COI with respect to the issue? Those are both huge problems with the rationale given, and whenever I bring them up, they're ignored, or countered with "but the sources are so strong!" I'm sorry, this is either circular logic, or simply restating one's point.
But I gotta say, this also seems pretty circular.No, you're missing the implication. I should have spelled it out better. I'm saying if the sources were strong, any arguments against them would have been shot down quickly. Instead, we have an ongoing discussion that's resulted in multiple blocks over the course of several days now. We also have unanswered criticisms of the sources, and several defenses of the source consisted of blatant falsehoods (claiming that the Examiner source wasn't an opinion piece, for example). I've seen numerous situations where strong sources were opposed for ideological reasons, and they tend to end pretty quickly because eventually, the opposing side runs into a wall they can't climb. They run out of arguments and either turn to incivility and get blocked or give up. I can't speak for others, but again: I have no dog in this fight. My concern is only for the quality of the article and our adherence to WP policy. I have no problem believing that anyone involved in CON could have engaged in doxing themselves, nor do I have any desire to protect them. I'm just as happy to lose this argument as I am to win it. My concern over the quality of the sources is based on their applicability to the BLP issues here.
Normally I would agree, if this were a political topic and the author was injecting conservative views into the article.Conservatism and liberalism extend to more than just politics. Perhaps I should have said "right-wing" rather than conservative: Gamergaters are obviously right wing, just as the SJWs (I don't mean that pejoratively, just for lack of a better term) are obviously left wing. In fact, I'm sure I should, because conservatism and liberalism aren't quite the same things, and I don't think they apply here. So consider this a correction.
Notably, the section in which she tries to justify her actions in them, which is not something she would do if they were fake.That's not true. I've recently been accused of ordering someone to never disagree with me. The allegation was obviously false to everyone who heard it, yet I still have typed several paragraphs (significantly more than Randi) justifying my actions.
Normally we wouldn't, unless they did their due diligence...Even then, I wouldn't even consider citing them for that. If they are right, less biased news outlets would pick up the story, and we could run with those sources. To analogize that back to this section, it's as if TP claimed to have smoking gun proof in the form of emails that Ailes molests Catholic school girls, and a former employee verifying said emails, yet NPR and CNN never once mention the story. At that point, we're not relying on TPs editorial process to vet their stories so much as we are beginning to question whether they were ever reliable for any use. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 02:52, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
Gamergaters are obviously right wingAre they? Before Bernie Sanders dropped out of the race, many of the same people now claiming that Gamergate supporters are now 'alt right' were claiming the same people were 'Bernie Bros'. So, which is it? Are they right wing extremists, or are they so far to the left (In US political terms, Sanders would be considered right of center in Europe) that they support Sanders' ideal of a more socialist vision of America? They cannot be both at the same time.
If they are right, less biased news outlets would pick up the story, and we could run with those sources.You are using a fallacy that there are many, if any unbiased sources on the subject of GamerGate. As we have seen, there are very few unbiased sources on this issue. You previously mentioned Kotaku as a source, if they wrote about these logs. However, many of the writers at Kotaku are friends with people in the chat logs, including Quinn and Lifschitz-- as well as one of the writers being one of the focal points of the controversy, Nathan Grayson, who slept with Quinn in the past. So, please, tell me honestly if they are going to write anything bad about them or a group they are involved with. The very first 'reliable source' used in the CON article is penned by Leigh Alexander, who is both part of the whole GamerGate controversy, and a personal friend of more than one person involved in Crash Override Network. Are you going to say Alexander is an unbiased writer on the subject? The other 'reliable sources' used in the CON article read like press releases for CON, as well-- they are simply using quotes and talking points given to them by CON members as their sole basis for the articles. I was unaware that press releases and fluff pieces were considered reliable sources, now.
And countered. Are you contending that Randi did not indicate the logs were edited? Or that a disgruntled former member is under no COI with respect to the issue?I've contended that Randi didn't indicate what the nature of the edit was, so it's impossible to know if the content itself was altered in any way, or just the formatting. All we can definitively conclude from her statements is that parts were unedited, specifically the portion where she posts the facebook profiles of Gamergate supporters and publicly calling for employers to blacklist them. I've also explained why Cheong is under no COI- he's no longer a part of the organization and thus has no personal or professional stake in defending it's reputation, unlike the current members. You floated a theory in which Cheong might have hypothetically joined in order to find dirt, then inexplicably quit, and then nearly a year later created months worth of fake chatlogs. I explained why this was highly unlikely, and that there was no evidence of it, so it wasn't worth consideration. I'm sorry if you missed it, I will try to be clearer in the future
Conservatism and liberalism extend to more than just politics. Perhaps I should have said "right-wing" rather than conservative: Gamergaters are obviously right wing, just as the SJWsOn that note, I don't see anything in the Examiner article that shows a right-wing bias, or advocacy of any conservative position. Again, it would be helpful to point out where the author has injected their opinion, but they seemed to have left it at the door in favor of a simple recounting of events, backed by primary sources. On the question of Gamergate being right-wing, all available data on their political affiliations shows most of them identifying as leftist or liberal. Of the Gamergate members who voted in the last US election, Obama supporters outnumbered Romney supporters by 4:1. To date I haven't seen any polls showing conservatives or right-wingers to be more than a small minority, but maybe you have some. https://www.allthink.com/1588852
Even then, I wouldn't even consider citing them for that. If they are right, less biased news outlets would pick up the story, and we could run with those sources.This is less of an argument against verifiability than it is against notability. But the Washington Examiner isn't any more biased on the subject than the outlets already cited in the article, many of which have personal connections to Crash Override Network and their founders.
That's not true. I've recently been accused of ordering someone to never disagree with me. The allegation was obviously false to everyone who heard it, yet I still have typed several paragraphs (significantly more than Randi) justifying my actions.This is a bit confusing to read. You spent time justifying actions which you didn't do? Or did you deny ordering someone to disagree with you? Anyway, if the logs were fake, Randi Harper would simply state that the quotes attributed to her were fake, spending time explaining why she said the things she said in the chatlogs. 73.13.28.182 ( talk) 22:09, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
So let's sum up: we're good with the Washington Examiner as a source, right? Since it's used on many other pages, and on the scale of reliable sources is far better than most of the existing sourcing on the page in question.
2601:602:9802:99B2:B8B7:8167:6D6E:F9D6 (
talk) 02:48, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
We should probably break up this disgusting thread with a new section, it's hard to read. Now that there's nothing more to be said and we're simply waiting for everyone to forget about this article before pretending like nothing ever happened maybe we could play a game? Maybe we could do that thing where we all say a sentence and try to make a story out of it. What do you guys even normally do on this page? is this just where citations go to die? 24.84.155.22 ( talk) 04:30, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
The instructions at the top of this page are clear. Applying them here, this information needs to be provided:
Note the last sentence.
As this is a very contentious topic, expect things to proceed slowly as debate takes place. This debate needs to be free of snark, aspersions, or attacks. Editors not adhering to this requirement should expect arbcom enforcement blocks. -- NeilN talk to me 18:14, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
Content The disputed text is in this diff:
Sources The primary sources are linked from here:
Secondary sources include Ian Miles Cheong who was a member of the Crash Override Network:
A report by Ashe Schow:
William Usher is self-published but has followed the subject closely and any of his claims can be double checked against the logs:
Hope that helps. 50.196.177.155 ( talk) 21:24, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
Also here's Randi Harper confirming the origin of the leaks (note: the logs cover an extensive period of time): https://twitter.com/randileeharper/status/769662582890168320 I just assumed you would have already read what was written and didn't need it spoonfed, sorry my mistake. 24.84.155.22 ( talk) 21:26, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
Note for editors. [43] -- NeilN talk to me 22:38, 14 September 2016 (UTC)