Category:1913 Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association football season
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The result of the discussion was:procedural keep. This needs a mass nomination (I'm happy to help if needed).
(non-admin closure)Qwerfjkltalk 14:08, 17 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: There's only a page and the template in here. I've added the main page to the 1913 football season category.
Mason (
talk) 23:55, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
This should be nominated together with its siblings.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 08:58, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep; part of a well-established, highly-structured categorization scheme.
Jweiss11 (
talk) 03:52, 11 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom. Others in similar situation should also be nominated.
Let'srun (
talk) 15:52, 11 February 2024 (UTC).reply
This is one of thousands like it; I do not understand why we want to stray from order to disorder, rather than stay orderly and organized.
BeanieFan11 (
talk) 19:27, 11 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Fascists by ethnicity
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Category:Brooklyn Hills football seasons
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Nominator's rationale: Only 2 pages in category.
Let'srun (
talk) 23:09, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete, I have added a "see also" note directly in the article text.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 09:02, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Staten Island Cricket Club football seasons
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Nominator's rationale: Only two pages in category
Let'srun (
talk) 22:50, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete, I have added a "see also" note directly in the article text.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 09:05, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:12th-century Christian universalists
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Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. There's only one person in this category, which is unhelpful for navigation
Mason (
talk) 22:02, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
KeepWP:SMALLCAT and the fact that it diffuses multiple navigation schemes. ―
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 22:05, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Small cat is no longer wikipedia policy. What navigation schemes does it diffuse?
Mason (
talk) 23:56, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Merge, isolated single-article category. The 15th-century sibling should be nominated too.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 09:10, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Breton historians
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Nominator's rationale: Per C2C: Norm is to use Historians of SUBJECT, I'm not sure if this can be speedied because the main page is called
List of Breton historians. But as named it could be historians who are ethnically Bretons
Mason (
talk) 21:30, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom. This is clearly less ambiguous. The list may be renamed too.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 09:13, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom. Breton categories are often filled with people based on their link with the region rather than reliable information on their ethnicity anyway.
Place Clichy (
talk) 17:24, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:6th-century Indian non-fiction writers
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Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. Redudant category layer. Each only has FOOian-century Indian scholars in it
Mason (
talk) 21:20, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Merge per nom. More siblings may be added.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 10:06, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:21st-century Vietnamese calligraphers
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Nominator's rationale: There are only 4 unique people across these three categories. Upmerge for now
Mason (
talk) 21:06, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Merge for now, without objection to recreate these categories when some more articles are available.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 10:19, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:21st-century Korean calligraphers
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Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. There's only one (or two) people in each of these categories.
Mason (
talk) 20:54, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Merge for now, without objection to recreate these categories when some more articles are available.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 10:20, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:5th-century Chinese musicians
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Nominator's rationale: I propose broadening these categories to include musicians of any nationality.
Mason (
talk) 20:12, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Support in principle. I am surprised these categories do not exist yet. The articles should be manually added more specifically to musicians by dynasty categories instead of generally to
Category:Ancient Chinese musicians.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 11:01, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Nominator's rationale: Non-defining category. Already handled at
Category:Murdoch family, spouse categories are incredibly rare except for royalty etc. --
woodensuperman 13:50, 1 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose Categories like these are not only intended for royalty.
Dimadick (
talk) 14:09, 1 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment Is this an inherently limited category? It's not like Murdoch will be having 4 or 5 more wives so there is little potential for growth. LizRead!Talk! 19:58, 6 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Qwerfjkltalk 15:59, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete; as Liz notes, there is little to no potential for growth here.
Omnis Scientia (
talk) 16:11, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete Yeah, I'd agree that unlike wives of royalty, this is not defining.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 17:30, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom.
Mason (
talk) 20:23, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom. Not a defining characteristic and extremely limited.
Let'srun (
talk) 22:51, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Female soldiers
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The result of the discussion was:merge. A larger discussion should be held for renaming "women" categories to "female".
(non-admin closure)Qwerfjkltalk 14:23, 17 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: A complete
WP:OVERLAPCAT. It used to be a redirect, but since
User:AHI-3000 thinks it should be its own category, we should probably come to a consensus about whether it should exist.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 19:47, 1 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Reverse merge. "Female soldiers" sounds grammatically better than "women soldiers", because "female" is an adjective and "women" is actually a plural noun. I also think this should be done for other occupational categories that are erroneously named with "Women" at the beginning of their page titles.
AHI-3000 (
talk) 20:23, 5 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Reverse merge per AHI-3000, and do not purge
Category:Female child soldiers (as it fits under the umbrella "female"). If it is regularly-merged, then do purge. HouseBlaster (
talk · he/him) 23:52, 8 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Qwerfjkltalk 15:58, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Reverse merge per discussion above.
Omnis Scientia (
talk) 16:12, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Note As
Category:Female soldiers is the newer category, in order to preserve history, the merge should still be executed as I proposed, but then the category renamed to "Female soldiers".
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 17:34, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Procedurally oppose. I think we should not be having a ton of these renaming women to female simultaneously.
Mason (
talk) 20:25, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Even if you oppose changing the name, surely you support both categories not existing at the same time, right? I don't understand why you would oppose even that. I have no preference on what name it ends up as, I just deferred to the one that has been stable.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 20:58, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
That's a good point. I'll support the merge in these circumstaces.
Mason (
talk) 23:58, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Merge as nominated with no prejuduice to a rename in a larger discussion. –
Aidan721 (
talk) 22:34, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Articles about multiple people
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Nominator's rationale: The current title isn't really defining, as it refers to the article rather than the article subject. The rename would remedy that by making it clear it's talking about the subjects of each article. A move to this name failed in 2011, but for an odd reason - they claimed that 2 people were not a "group". Merriam-Webster defines group as "two or more", so this is flat-out wrong.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 15:28, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom. Without context it is a somewhat odd title, but it is a container category so it won't lead to confusion for editors of articles.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 11:06, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:People from the New York metropolitan area by city
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Category:Lists of American people by city
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Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. There's only one speech in each, which is unhelpful for navigation
Mason (
talk) 05:21, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. There's only one category in here, which is unhelpful for navigation
Mason (
talk) 04:31, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (
talk · he/him) 00:17, 2 February 2024 (UTC)reply
These deletions seems reasonable. I don't have strong opinions. Has anyone asked the Wikiproject what they'd like to do with it?
Mason (
talk) 02:27, 6 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: I am going to relist this and drop a note at
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Germany. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (
talk · he/him) 03:24, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Humor and wit characters
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Nominator's rationale: Seems like a complete overlap; humor and wit is by definition comedy. Category was also made by a blocked user.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 06:29, 24 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Question about the target: does "comedy" include folklore tales? Because that is what a number of articles are about.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:17, 24 January 2024 (UTC)reply
If the characters aren't explicitly comedic, they should probably just be purged. Calling a non-comedic character humorous or not, is personal opinion.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 14:15, 24 January 2024 (UTC)reply
It is a bit of a grey area though.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 17:22, 24 January 2024 (UTC)reply
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Qwerfjkltalk 21:46, 1 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Stand-up comedy concert films
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Nominator's rationale: There are no separate Categories for non-concert films of stand-up comedy, so the disambiguation is unneeded. The Category was created in the early year of 2006. Recorded, edited and released long-form stand-up comedy acts are ubiquitously referred to as "specials". Separately, Wikipedia defines a
concert as being a live musical performance in front of an audience.
DA1 (
talk) 09:24, 1 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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The result of the discussion was:Keep. If there are individual categories that should be renamed, they should be nominated individually. (
non-admin closure)
Qwerfjkltalk 12:23, 18 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: "Women" is a noun, "female" is an adjective. There are probably many categories I missed, but this is a good start. HouseBlaster (
talk · he/him) 02:44, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose. I've started to think about this some more as the nom has been coming up. (I personally prefer being called a women, than being described as female).
1) These renames are going to wreck havoc on a ton of pre-existing templates, which just makes more work. Going from FOO female/woman to female/women FOO occupation splits the occupation category.
2) I do not want to see this trickle down into categories called Fooian females, because there are numerous undertones. I would like the previsions discussions related to these renames to be linked here.
3) I would really like some feedback from more women focused wikipedia groups.
4) I think women makes it clearer that being a women in the occupation is a defining feature, rather than someone who is female.
Mason (
talk) 03:05, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose as "women" refers to gender, while "female" refers to sex.
Ed[talk][OMT] 03:13, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Support selected moves. Women does go in front of nouns. A recent phenomenon is to put "female" in front instead of women, which has only been happening in the past few decades. The thing about this change is that some fields still have "women" as more common.
Here is a listing on Google Ngrams to consider the most common:
An issue is that "women" applies only to adults whereas "female" is inclusive to children (girls). We had this issue on the
List of female monarchs, which previously used "women monarchs" and was
moved to "female".
To reply to
The ed17's mention that "female" refers to sex and "women" gender, that point does not follow consensus on
Women, where "female" refers to both gender and sex. —Panamitsu(talk) 03:46, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose: As an 80-year-old Brit, my initial inclination was to use "female" as a qualifier, in both articles and categories on Wikipedia, but as a result of discussions with experts in the field such as
SusunW I now frequently use "women" as a pseudo-adjective. For most sports though, "female" is widely used internationally and is generally more appropriate for Wikipedia categories, see
Category:Sportswomen by sport. I would not support these being changed to "women", e.g. women baseball players. The many existing categories including "women" and "female" function well and are widely used. I strongly suggest they should be maintained.--
Ipigott (
talk) 07:09, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose: as noun modifiers are so commonplace in informal writing, formal writing, and our category tree that the rationale is wrong. If there are other reasons to prefer "female", I'd love to her them. The Ngram analysis is nice, but we shouldn't choose one form over the other if the Ngrams show that they're close and there are other reasons (e.g. consistency) to stick with the slightly less common version. I would feel differently if one form were vastly more common than the other.
Firefangledfeathers (
talk /
contribs) 13:11, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Strongly Oppose: If you look at the history of women vs. female as a modifier, it dates to the 14th century. According to the Oxford English Dictionary woman first appeared as an adjective in 1382.
[1] According to Webster's Dictionary,
[2] Henry Fowler, who wrote the 1926 Dictionary of Modern English Usage, was the first scholar to insist that woman was a noun and female was an adjective. (Interestingly he argued that female suffrage was the correct term, and that women who opposed that phraseology were whiny, but the largest global organization pressing for suffrage was the
International Woman Suffrage Alliance.) Journalists have varying opinions on whether woman can be a noun modifier.
[3],
[4],
[5],
[6],
[7] Scholars have also debated the question
[8],
[9] and dictionaries disagree as well. According to "Grammar Girl" Mignon Fogarty Webster's (their article on usage indicates it's not cut and dry) and American Heritage indicate woman is a noun, Dictionary.com says woman can be used as a noun or adjective, and the Oxford English Dictionary states that woman can be used as an appositive noun.
[10]Guardian reporter Maddie York, whose personal preference is for woman to be restricted to use as a noun, states that the Chamber's Dictionary considers the usage of female and woman to be interchangeable and the Collin's Dictionary lists woman as a modifier.
[11] Given this history there is no logical reason the categories should be renamed to choose one word over another.
SusunW (
talk) 15:14, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose per most/all of the various different arguments above, and the sheer hassle of catching all of them, which I don't think the nom does.
Johnbod (
talk) 15:32, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose per the oppose votes above. Trying to avoid repeating the arguments. --
Rohini (
talk) 16:55, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose Per the various arguments given, things are not nearly as cut and dry as the nomination claims. It's amazing that somehow it was assumed that whoever made all these categories was unable to distinguish a noun from an adjective.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 17:54, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Strongly oppose. Making such a change would be a prime example of trying to make language fit a rigid idea of consistency and correctness, rather than reflecting how language is actually used and understood by editors and readers. And in many cases, changing "women" to "female" would be borderline offensive, as it would abruptly draw attention to biological sex in contexts where it is not relevant. Note the difference between "She was the first woman astronaut to orbit the moon" and "Accommodating the bodies of the first female astronauts presented space suit designers with a new set of issues." Each of these sentences, I would argue, uses the best word in the context. Would support going with common usage, which is rarely consistent and often "incorrect". —
scribblingwoman 19:25, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Strong oppose. As the founder of
WP:WPWW in 2014, I can tell you that we had this conversation back then when deciding about creating new categories to support our WikiProject's work. Academics who focus on women's literature were part of the discussion (including off-wiki). In addition, my point of view is supported by the oppose arguments presented here by others. --
Rosiestep (
talk) 19:09, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Remove the women/female subcategories, orAdd a "man" (for consistency with "woman") subcategory as well. Or have both "male"/"female" subcats. Either way we should be both equal-opportunity (subcats for both sexes/genders) and consistent (man/woman or male/female).
Mitch Ames (
talk) 08:56, 11 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Remove the women/female subcategories — and the men/male subcategories (as
Ipigott mentioned
on my talk page), where they exist and are irrelevant to being a foo.
Mitch Ames (
talk) 23:43, 12 February 2024 (UTC)reply
support considerable effort has been on going for sometime to address the Bias singular terminology will help in the identification of such bias.
Gnangarra 12:47, 13 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Can you @
Gnangarra unpack what you mean by "address the Bias singular terminology will help in the identification of such bias"?
Mason (
talk) 02:22, 14 February 2024 (UTC)reply
"considerable effort has been on going for sometime to address the Bias..."
WP:BIAS female catches the nuiances between women and transgender.
Gnangarra 04:28, 14 February 2024 (UTC)reply
The article you refer to appears to me to call for increased efforts in support of women. I see no call for standardizing terminology.--
Ipigott (
talk) 15:10, 15 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Perhaps it's a special case but (a) 'female astronauts' is in common use, and (b) social gender isn't as relevant as biological sex. (Both male and female astronauts are biology research test subjects, among other roles.) (
— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk)
Oppose because the rationale is faulty.
Noun adjuncts are a very standard part of English. We can debate whether using "female" or "women" properly reflects the focus of these categories, but we cannot do so starting from the false premise that there is any grammatical reason to prefer one or the other construction. —
David Eppstein (
talk) 23:38, 16 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose because the nom's rationale is incorrect as pointed out by the various other oppose !votes.
TipsyElephant (
talk) 06:16, 17 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:1910s business films
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Oppose Breaking the decades series is not helpful for navigation.
Dimadick (
talk) 09:01, 1 February 2024 (UTC)reply
How is this breaking the decades series? The series would just start a decade later.
Mason (
talk) 03:09, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:1910 government budgets
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Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. Not enough content to support diffusing this decade by year
Mason (
talk) 04:07, 1 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Merge for now, without objection to recreate the categories when some more articles are available.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 05:09, 1 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose Small categories are more useful than decade-level categories for economic topics. The budgets should also be included in
Category:x year in politics categories.
Dimadick (
talk) 13:23, 1 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Merge for Now without objection to recreation later should more articles be published per
WP:MFN. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 01:10, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Alpine skiing at the 1936 Winter Olympics
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Nominator's rationale: There was only 1 women's and men's alpine skiing event the 1936 Winter Olympics. Merge in the spirit of
WP:C2F. –
Aidan721 (
talk) 01:50, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Nominator's rationale: We don't need to categorize the intersection of seasons for ice hockey and field hockey. Not useful in any way. Merge. –
Aidan721 (
talk) 00:54, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Merge, redundant category layer with only two subcategories each.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:28, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Merge. Field hockey and ice hockey don't share anything besides the name. They belong to a larger family of
Stick sports, which also include lacrosse, bandy, hurling, rink hockey etc.
Place Clichy (
talk) 17:32, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Seasons in United States Virgin Islands soccer
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Nominator's rationale:WP:NARROWCAT. Merge/delete. The lone articles are already in the parent trees, so an additional merge is unnecessary. –
Aidan721 (
talk) 00:21, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Seasons in Cook Islands football
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Nominator's rationale:WP:NARROWCAT. Merge/delete. The lone articles are already in the parent trees, so an additional merge is unnecessary. –
Aidan721 (
talk) 00:03, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Seasons in Guinean football
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Nominator's rationale:WP:NARROWCAT. Merge/delete. The lone articles are already in the parent trees, so an additional merge is unnecessary. –
Aidan721 (
talk) 00:00, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:1913 Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association football season
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The result of the discussion was:procedural keep. This needs a mass nomination (I'm happy to help if needed).
(non-admin closure)Qwerfjkltalk 14:08, 17 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: There's only a page and the template in here. I've added the main page to the 1913 football season category.
Mason (
talk) 23:55, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
This should be nominated together with its siblings.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 08:58, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep; part of a well-established, highly-structured categorization scheme.
Jweiss11 (
talk) 03:52, 11 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom. Others in similar situation should also be nominated.
Let'srun (
talk) 15:52, 11 February 2024 (UTC).reply
This is one of thousands like it; I do not understand why we want to stray from order to disorder, rather than stay orderly and organized.
BeanieFan11 (
talk) 19:27, 11 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Fascists by ethnicity
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Category:Brooklyn Hills football seasons
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Nominator's rationale: Only 2 pages in category.
Let'srun (
talk) 23:09, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete, I have added a "see also" note directly in the article text.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 09:02, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Staten Island Cricket Club football seasons
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Nominator's rationale: Only two pages in category
Let'srun (
talk) 22:50, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete, I have added a "see also" note directly in the article text.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 09:05, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:12th-century Christian universalists
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Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. There's only one person in this category, which is unhelpful for navigation
Mason (
talk) 22:02, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
KeepWP:SMALLCAT and the fact that it diffuses multiple navigation schemes. ―
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 22:05, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Small cat is no longer wikipedia policy. What navigation schemes does it diffuse?
Mason (
talk) 23:56, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Merge, isolated single-article category. The 15th-century sibling should be nominated too.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 09:10, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Breton historians
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Nominator's rationale: Per C2C: Norm is to use Historians of SUBJECT, I'm not sure if this can be speedied because the main page is called
List of Breton historians. But as named it could be historians who are ethnically Bretons
Mason (
talk) 21:30, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom. This is clearly less ambiguous. The list may be renamed too.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 09:13, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom. Breton categories are often filled with people based on their link with the region rather than reliable information on their ethnicity anyway.
Place Clichy (
talk) 17:24, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:6th-century Indian non-fiction writers
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Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. Redudant category layer. Each only has FOOian-century Indian scholars in it
Mason (
talk) 21:20, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Merge per nom. More siblings may be added.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 10:06, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:21st-century Vietnamese calligraphers
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Nominator's rationale: There are only 4 unique people across these three categories. Upmerge for now
Mason (
talk) 21:06, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Merge for now, without objection to recreate these categories when some more articles are available.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 10:19, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:21st-century Korean calligraphers
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Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. There's only one (or two) people in each of these categories.
Mason (
talk) 20:54, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Merge for now, without objection to recreate these categories when some more articles are available.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 10:20, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:5th-century Chinese musicians
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Nominator's rationale: I propose broadening these categories to include musicians of any nationality.
Mason (
talk) 20:12, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Support in principle. I am surprised these categories do not exist yet. The articles should be manually added more specifically to musicians by dynasty categories instead of generally to
Category:Ancient Chinese musicians.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 11:01, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Nominator's rationale: Non-defining category. Already handled at
Category:Murdoch family, spouse categories are incredibly rare except for royalty etc. --
woodensuperman 13:50, 1 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose Categories like these are not only intended for royalty.
Dimadick (
talk) 14:09, 1 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment Is this an inherently limited category? It's not like Murdoch will be having 4 or 5 more wives so there is little potential for growth. LizRead!Talk! 19:58, 6 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Qwerfjkltalk 15:59, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete; as Liz notes, there is little to no potential for growth here.
Omnis Scientia (
talk) 16:11, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete Yeah, I'd agree that unlike wives of royalty, this is not defining.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 17:30, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom.
Mason (
talk) 20:23, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom. Not a defining characteristic and extremely limited.
Let'srun (
talk) 22:51, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Female soldiers
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The result of the discussion was:merge. A larger discussion should be held for renaming "women" categories to "female".
(non-admin closure)Qwerfjkltalk 14:23, 17 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: A complete
WP:OVERLAPCAT. It used to be a redirect, but since
User:AHI-3000 thinks it should be its own category, we should probably come to a consensus about whether it should exist.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 19:47, 1 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Reverse merge. "Female soldiers" sounds grammatically better than "women soldiers", because "female" is an adjective and "women" is actually a plural noun. I also think this should be done for other occupational categories that are erroneously named with "Women" at the beginning of their page titles.
AHI-3000 (
talk) 20:23, 5 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Reverse merge per AHI-3000, and do not purge
Category:Female child soldiers (as it fits under the umbrella "female"). If it is regularly-merged, then do purge. HouseBlaster (
talk · he/him) 23:52, 8 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Qwerfjkltalk 15:58, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Reverse merge per discussion above.
Omnis Scientia (
talk) 16:12, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Note As
Category:Female soldiers is the newer category, in order to preserve history, the merge should still be executed as I proposed, but then the category renamed to "Female soldiers".
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 17:34, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Procedurally oppose. I think we should not be having a ton of these renaming women to female simultaneously.
Mason (
talk) 20:25, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Even if you oppose changing the name, surely you support both categories not existing at the same time, right? I don't understand why you would oppose even that. I have no preference on what name it ends up as, I just deferred to the one that has been stable.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 20:58, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
That's a good point. I'll support the merge in these circumstaces.
Mason (
talk) 23:58, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Merge as nominated with no prejuduice to a rename in a larger discussion. –
Aidan721 (
talk) 22:34, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Articles about multiple people
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Nominator's rationale: The current title isn't really defining, as it refers to the article rather than the article subject. The rename would remedy that by making it clear it's talking about the subjects of each article. A move to this name failed in 2011, but for an odd reason - they claimed that 2 people were not a "group". Merriam-Webster defines group as "two or more", so this is flat-out wrong.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 15:28, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom. Without context it is a somewhat odd title, but it is a container category so it won't lead to confusion for editors of articles.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 11:06, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:People from the New York metropolitan area by city
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Category:Lists of American people by city
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Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. There's only one speech in each, which is unhelpful for navigation
Mason (
talk) 05:21, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. There's only one category in here, which is unhelpful for navigation
Mason (
talk) 04:31, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (
talk · he/him) 00:17, 2 February 2024 (UTC)reply
These deletions seems reasonable. I don't have strong opinions. Has anyone asked the Wikiproject what they'd like to do with it?
Mason (
talk) 02:27, 6 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: I am going to relist this and drop a note at
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Germany. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (
talk · he/him) 03:24, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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talk · he/him) 03:23, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Humor and wit characters
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Nominator's rationale: Seems like a complete overlap; humor and wit is by definition comedy. Category was also made by a blocked user.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 06:29, 24 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Question about the target: does "comedy" include folklore tales? Because that is what a number of articles are about.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:17, 24 January 2024 (UTC)reply
If the characters aren't explicitly comedic, they should probably just be purged. Calling a non-comedic character humorous or not, is personal opinion.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 14:15, 24 January 2024 (UTC)reply
It is a bit of a grey area though.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 17:22, 24 January 2024 (UTC)reply
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Qwerfjkltalk 21:46, 1 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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talk · he/him) 03:21, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Stand-up comedy concert films
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Nominator's rationale: There are no separate Categories for non-concert films of stand-up comedy, so the disambiguation is unneeded. The Category was created in the early year of 2006. Recorded, edited and released long-form stand-up comedy acts are ubiquitously referred to as "specials". Separately, Wikipedia defines a
concert as being a live musical performance in front of an audience.
DA1 (
talk) 09:24, 1 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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talk · he/him) 03:17, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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The result of the discussion was:Keep. If there are individual categories that should be renamed, they should be nominated individually. (
non-admin closure)
Qwerfjkltalk 12:23, 18 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: "Women" is a noun, "female" is an adjective. There are probably many categories I missed, but this is a good start. HouseBlaster (
talk · he/him) 02:44, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose. I've started to think about this some more as the nom has been coming up. (I personally prefer being called a women, than being described as female).
1) These renames are going to wreck havoc on a ton of pre-existing templates, which just makes more work. Going from FOO female/woman to female/women FOO occupation splits the occupation category.
2) I do not want to see this trickle down into categories called Fooian females, because there are numerous undertones. I would like the previsions discussions related to these renames to be linked here.
3) I would really like some feedback from more women focused wikipedia groups.
4) I think women makes it clearer that being a women in the occupation is a defining feature, rather than someone who is female.
Mason (
talk) 03:05, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose as "women" refers to gender, while "female" refers to sex.
Ed[talk][OMT] 03:13, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Support selected moves. Women does go in front of nouns. A recent phenomenon is to put "female" in front instead of women, which has only been happening in the past few decades. The thing about this change is that some fields still have "women" as more common.
Here is a listing on Google Ngrams to consider the most common:
An issue is that "women" applies only to adults whereas "female" is inclusive to children (girls). We had this issue on the
List of female monarchs, which previously used "women monarchs" and was
moved to "female".
To reply to
The ed17's mention that "female" refers to sex and "women" gender, that point does not follow consensus on
Women, where "female" refers to both gender and sex. —Panamitsu(talk) 03:46, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose: As an 80-year-old Brit, my initial inclination was to use "female" as a qualifier, in both articles and categories on Wikipedia, but as a result of discussions with experts in the field such as
SusunW I now frequently use "women" as a pseudo-adjective. For most sports though, "female" is widely used internationally and is generally more appropriate for Wikipedia categories, see
Category:Sportswomen by sport. I would not support these being changed to "women", e.g. women baseball players. The many existing categories including "women" and "female" function well and are widely used. I strongly suggest they should be maintained.--
Ipigott (
talk) 07:09, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose: as noun modifiers are so commonplace in informal writing, formal writing, and our category tree that the rationale is wrong. If there are other reasons to prefer "female", I'd love to her them. The Ngram analysis is nice, but we shouldn't choose one form over the other if the Ngrams show that they're close and there are other reasons (e.g. consistency) to stick with the slightly less common version. I would feel differently if one form were vastly more common than the other.
Firefangledfeathers (
talk /
contribs) 13:11, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Strongly Oppose: If you look at the history of women vs. female as a modifier, it dates to the 14th century. According to the Oxford English Dictionary woman first appeared as an adjective in 1382.
[1] According to Webster's Dictionary,
[2] Henry Fowler, who wrote the 1926 Dictionary of Modern English Usage, was the first scholar to insist that woman was a noun and female was an adjective. (Interestingly he argued that female suffrage was the correct term, and that women who opposed that phraseology were whiny, but the largest global organization pressing for suffrage was the
International Woman Suffrage Alliance.) Journalists have varying opinions on whether woman can be a noun modifier.
[3],
[4],
[5],
[6],
[7] Scholars have also debated the question
[8],
[9] and dictionaries disagree as well. According to "Grammar Girl" Mignon Fogarty Webster's (their article on usage indicates it's not cut and dry) and American Heritage indicate woman is a noun, Dictionary.com says woman can be used as a noun or adjective, and the Oxford English Dictionary states that woman can be used as an appositive noun.
[10]Guardian reporter Maddie York, whose personal preference is for woman to be restricted to use as a noun, states that the Chamber's Dictionary considers the usage of female and woman to be interchangeable and the Collin's Dictionary lists woman as a modifier.
[11] Given this history there is no logical reason the categories should be renamed to choose one word over another.
SusunW (
talk) 15:14, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose per most/all of the various different arguments above, and the sheer hassle of catching all of them, which I don't think the nom does.
Johnbod (
talk) 15:32, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose per the oppose votes above. Trying to avoid repeating the arguments. --
Rohini (
talk) 16:55, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose Per the various arguments given, things are not nearly as cut and dry as the nomination claims. It's amazing that somehow it was assumed that whoever made all these categories was unable to distinguish a noun from an adjective.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 17:54, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Strongly oppose. Making such a change would be a prime example of trying to make language fit a rigid idea of consistency and correctness, rather than reflecting how language is actually used and understood by editors and readers. And in many cases, changing "women" to "female" would be borderline offensive, as it would abruptly draw attention to biological sex in contexts where it is not relevant. Note the difference between "She was the first woman astronaut to orbit the moon" and "Accommodating the bodies of the first female astronauts presented space suit designers with a new set of issues." Each of these sentences, I would argue, uses the best word in the context. Would support going with common usage, which is rarely consistent and often "incorrect". —
scribblingwoman 19:25, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Strong oppose. As the founder of
WP:WPWW in 2014, I can tell you that we had this conversation back then when deciding about creating new categories to support our WikiProject's work. Academics who focus on women's literature were part of the discussion (including off-wiki). In addition, my point of view is supported by the oppose arguments presented here by others. --
Rosiestep (
talk) 19:09, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Remove the women/female subcategories, orAdd a "man" (for consistency with "woman") subcategory as well. Or have both "male"/"female" subcats. Either way we should be both equal-opportunity (subcats for both sexes/genders) and consistent (man/woman or male/female).
Mitch Ames (
talk) 08:56, 11 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Remove the women/female subcategories — and the men/male subcategories (as
Ipigott mentioned
on my talk page), where they exist and are irrelevant to being a foo.
Mitch Ames (
talk) 23:43, 12 February 2024 (UTC)reply
support considerable effort has been on going for sometime to address the Bias singular terminology will help in the identification of such bias.
Gnangarra 12:47, 13 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Can you @
Gnangarra unpack what you mean by "address the Bias singular terminology will help in the identification of such bias"?
Mason (
talk) 02:22, 14 February 2024 (UTC)reply
"considerable effort has been on going for sometime to address the Bias..."
WP:BIAS female catches the nuiances between women and transgender.
Gnangarra 04:28, 14 February 2024 (UTC)reply
The article you refer to appears to me to call for increased efforts in support of women. I see no call for standardizing terminology.--
Ipigott (
talk) 15:10, 15 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Perhaps it's a special case but (a) 'female astronauts' is in common use, and (b) social gender isn't as relevant as biological sex. (Both male and female astronauts are biology research test subjects, among other roles.) (
— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk)
Oppose because the rationale is faulty.
Noun adjuncts are a very standard part of English. We can debate whether using "female" or "women" properly reflects the focus of these categories, but we cannot do so starting from the false premise that there is any grammatical reason to prefer one or the other construction. —
David Eppstein (
talk) 23:38, 16 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose because the nom's rationale is incorrect as pointed out by the various other oppose !votes.
TipsyElephant (
talk) 06:16, 17 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:1910s business films
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Oppose Breaking the decades series is not helpful for navigation.
Dimadick (
talk) 09:01, 1 February 2024 (UTC)reply
How is this breaking the decades series? The series would just start a decade later.
Mason (
talk) 03:09, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (
talk · he/him) 02:21, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:1910 government budgets
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Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. Not enough content to support diffusing this decade by year
Mason (
talk) 04:07, 1 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Merge for now, without objection to recreate the categories when some more articles are available.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 05:09, 1 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose Small categories are more useful than decade-level categories for economic topics. The budgets should also be included in
Category:x year in politics categories.
Dimadick (
talk) 13:23, 1 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (
talk · he/him) 02:21, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Merge for Now without objection to recreation later should more articles be published per
WP:MFN. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 01:10, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Alpine skiing at the 1936 Winter Olympics
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Nominator's rationale: There was only 1 women's and men's alpine skiing event the 1936 Winter Olympics. Merge in the spirit of
WP:C2F. –
Aidan721 (
talk) 01:50, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Nominator's rationale: We don't need to categorize the intersection of seasons for ice hockey and field hockey. Not useful in any way. Merge. –
Aidan721 (
talk) 00:54, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Merge, redundant category layer with only two subcategories each.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:28, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Merge. Field hockey and ice hockey don't share anything besides the name. They belong to a larger family of
Stick sports, which also include lacrosse, bandy, hurling, rink hockey etc.
Place Clichy (
talk) 17:32, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Seasons in United States Virgin Islands soccer
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Nominator's rationale:WP:NARROWCAT. Merge/delete. The lone articles are already in the parent trees, so an additional merge is unnecessary. –
Aidan721 (
talk) 00:21, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Seasons in Cook Islands football
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Nominator's rationale:WP:NARROWCAT. Merge/delete. The lone articles are already in the parent trees, so an additional merge is unnecessary. –
Aidan721 (
talk) 00:03, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Seasons in Guinean football
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Nominator's rationale:WP:NARROWCAT. Merge/delete. The lone articles are already in the parent trees, so an additional merge is unnecessary. –
Aidan721 (
talk) 00:00, 9 February 2024 (UTC)reply
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