The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Just a few words on Stevie is the man!'s comment that "these guidelines is that they are widely ignored" in connection with WP:BEFORE. There is no requirement that the nominator, or anybody else, actually attempt to improve the article, only that they look for sources. WP:BEFORE is certainly not ignored by AfD admin closers. If suitable sources are found then the article is generally kept, regardless of its current state. The only cases where a deletion of a sourcable article occurs is if the article is so bad (such as outright advertising) that the consensus of the debate is that it could only be improved by blowing it up and starting over Spinning Spark 09:27, 6 September 2014 (UTC) reply

William Burke Belknap (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)

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Apparently entirely non-notable member of a probably notable family. Both William Burke Belknap (1811–1884) and Belknap Inc. have entries, for example, in John E. Kleber (2001). The Encyclopedia of Louisville, as does Morris Burke Belknap, father of the first William; but this William Burke Belknap does not. It is not clear which of them the privately printed memoir relates to. Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 08:39, 7 August 2014 (UTC) reply

• Weak DeleteKeep. It's possible this subject is notable, but the current content/references doesn't convey it, and as the nominator said, there is confusion about the memoir. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 13:19, 7 August 2014 (UTC) reply

That is not an argument for deletion.  Unscintillating ( talk) 22:48, 14 August 2014 (UTC) reply

The confusion about the memoir is resolved. It was written in 1870, fifteen years before this person was born. OCLC 39138792, Memorandum of the family of Wm B. Belknap – William Burke Belknap – Made at Louisville Ky. 1870. I've removed it. Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 08:42, 15 August 2014 (UTC) reply

Your naked declaration doesn't negate my argument for deletion. Now, the article is reduced to still too little to warrant inclusion. There isn't anything that makes the subject notable at this point. The article hasn't been improved to the point of clarifying the notability of the subject as of yet. It still could be, so that's why I use 'Weak'. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 09:45, 15 August 2014 (UTC) reply

WP:N notability is independent of articles on Wikipedia or the sources or absence of sources in those articles.  Unscintillating ( talk) 20:52, 30 August 2014 (UTC) reply

It's the sources that demonstrate notability. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 14:03, 31 August 2014 (UTC) reply

I've listed two offline newspaper articles and twelve online sources.  How many more sources do you want?  Unscintillating ( talk) 16:12, 31 August 2014 (UTC) reply

Note: I would say Keep and Merge if there were an article to merge into, but there's not at this point. It would naturally merge into Belknap Inc.. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 09:59, 15 August 2014 (UTC) reply

It has turned up that the subject was a state representative, although the information comes from a likely unreliable source. I'm changing my vote to Weak Keep in hopes that a reliable source can be found. There are many, many state representative articles here in the Wikipedia, many of which are for otherwise non-notable persons. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 13:09, 16 August 2014 (UTC) reply

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Kentucky-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 01:09, 8 August 2014 (UTC) reply

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 01:10, 8 August 2014 (UTC) reply

• Delete Move to WP:Drafts – non-notable. Looking beyond the article, it appears to be one written to bolster another article (which has recently been expanded upon by a COI editor). Basically this it is about a branch of a family history, but not encyclopedic. – S. Rich ( talk) 06:16, 12 August 2014 (UTC) Upon further consideration, our article creator is a newbie and might better use Drafts to work out the article. – S. Rich ( talk) 06:11, 18 August 2014 (UTC) reply
• Keep  Incubate Keep or merge  AfD is not for non-notable topics with encyclopedic material, where the topic as a redirect belongs in the encyclopedia, and the material can be merged.  Start an RfC is you can't get consensus on the talk page of the article.  In addition, this article has been improved.  Unscintillating ( talk) 22:48, 14 August 2014 (UTC) reply

In reverting 32 edits, including material properly sourced with an inline citation, nominator stated about the content contributor, in this diff, "...Revert WP:COI edits - COI editors are STRONGLY ADVISED not to edit the article directly, but instead to suggest changes on the talk-page;..."  It has now been four days since the content contributor edited Wikipedia.  With more online review, I have found pictures of the topic preserved at the Eckstrom library at the University of Louisville.  Histories of Kentucky indicate that there are four or five wp:notable Belknap's and the company itself (see http://www.wkfinetools.com/hUS/hardw_Belknap/belknap-index.asp) in its centenary in 1940 described itself as the "THE WORLD'S LARGEST HARDWARE PLANT".  Changing !vote to "incubate", as the article is no longer the one that I !voted keep, and has lost its champion.  Unscintillating ( talk) 10:00, 20 August 2014 (UTC) reply

Changing !vote to keep, with sourcing shown from many vantage points including Boston, Montreal, Salt Lake City, Spokane, Pittsburgh, Washington, D.C.; influence on legislation in 46 states; lasting effects in Louisville and Oldham County, direct attention from President Hoover due to his work.  Unscintillating ( talk) 01:46, 24 August 2014 (UTC) reply

• • Could you clarify where in policy or guidelines your position comes from? AfD is about discussing the deletion of an article where there is question about inclusion for various reasons. Changing to a redirect is an argument one can make in such proceedings. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 09:55, 15 August 2014 (UTC) reply

• All editors who edit an AfD page are provided a link to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion discussion guidelines, which is better known as WP:BEFORE.  Point C1 there states, "If the article can be fixed through normal editing, then it is not a candidate for AfD."  "Normal editing" means those things that can be done without admin tools, c.f. WP:Editing policy.  See also WP:ATD, which is a policy.

Note that delete-and-redirect requires admin tools and is covered by WP:Deletion policy, while redirect-without-deletion is covered by WP:Editing policy.  The redirect and merge !votes were added in 2009, and are not well integrated into the AfD scheme.  Whether or not a merge/redirect consensus at an AfD is binding beyond the end of the AfD remains disputed.  This is part of a power struggle that would give more power to AfD !voters and AfD closing administrators.  Unscintillating ( talk) 05:04, 18 August 2014 (UTC) reply

Thanks. What's interesting about these guidelines is that they are widely ignored. It's actually rather humorous when we see a lot of AfDs started without any attempt to fix articles first. I actually agree that this article was prematurely submitted, but it happens in so many cases that it almost seems silly to even comment about. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 15:18, 19 August 2014 (UTC) reply

• Comment: The article that should have been written is Belknap Inc., a historical business in Louisville, not one about a member of the family that started it, unless they were notable on their own accord. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 09:55, 15 August 2014 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, NorthAmerica ¹⁰⁰⁰ 03:25, 16 August 2014 (UTC) reply

• Comment  This edit by the nominator has removed 6 references and more than 4K of material from the article.  Unscintillating ( talk) 05:50, 18 August 2014 (UTC) reply
• Comment  I have examined one of the references removed, and confirm that it shows in the Boston Evening Transcript of Feb. 8, 1907, that WBB was reported as Phi Betta Kappa from Yale (New Haven, CN).  Unscintillating ( talk) 06:17, 18 August 2014 (UTC) reply
• Comment  Here is a source I found using WP:BEFORE D1.  It reports that WBB graduated from Yale in 1908, and that in 1915 he was a second-year graduate student in Harvard economics, having won a scholarship for the third year.  Unscintillating ( talk) 06:17, 18 August 2014 (UTC) reply
• Delete This chap is verifiable, but doesn't have significant coverage of him, fails WP:Notability (people). If he were a state representative, then a reliable source for that needs to be found, before he would meet WP:POLITICIAN. Absent that, there is no basis for retaining this article. And yes, I looked at the deleted material. -- Bejnar ( talk) 15:08, 18 August 2014 (UTC) reply

• [1] might suffice.  Other sources say that he was in office from 1924-1928 and from 1934-1935.  Unscintillating ( talk) 00:36, 21 August 2014 (UTC) reply

• Comment: I would think there would be Courier-Journal coverage of this subject's term in office. If anyone can get access to newspapers from this period, those can be used as references. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 15:23, 19 August 2014 (UTC) reply

• February 16, 1986, One store put down, the roots of Belknap, Courier-Journal, p. E-2. This source has two or three paragraphs.  This is newspaper material from 20 years after his death.  WBB could have been president of Belknap but decided on farming.  Land O' Goshen was 3600 acres.  Taught economics at University of Louisville for 11 years.  Unscintillating ( talk) 00:36, 21 August 2014 (UTC) reply

Keep[[User: Mitzi.humphrey ( talk) 00:57, 23 August 2014 (UTC)]] I am the writer of the article and, yes, I do have a COI if you consider that the subject William Burke Belknap, my husband's grand uncle, is a COI case. I have refrained from adding to the article partly because I am not sufficiently familiar with Wikipedia procedures for discussion and partly because I thought I was not supposed to make changes while the article was being considered for deletion. Yes, I do have software access to old newspapers, including the Courier-Journal and think that with help, I could flesh out the article with numerous newspaper and website citations. I think that Land O' Goshen Farm, horsebreeding of the Kentucky saddlebred horse, academic career, philanthropy, political office, and Belknap Hardware Co. are all important aspects of this man's history. Mitzi.humphrey ( talk) 00:57, 23 August 2014 (UTC) reply

• Comment  I found a history of Louisville that explains that Ms. WBB gave land to the University of Louisville in the early 20th century.  That land was sold and the donation was used to purchase and name what is now the Belknap campus of the University of Louisville, which is now the main academic campus.  Another source identifies that the money came from the Belknap family.  Another source talks also about the "Belknap family", so this is two more wp:notable topics in this group that are currently redlinks.  Unscintillating ( talk) 01:39, 23 August 2014 (UTC) reply

Keep I added a clipping I made searching Newspapers.com, which asserts notability. I think with some work, sources for an acceptable article could be found. I am One of Many ( talk) 07:29, 23 August 2014 (UTC) reply

• Sep. 8, 1965, Hardware heir and agriculturist, W. B. Belknap, dies at 80, Courier-Journal, p. B-1, retrieved 2014-08-23.

Notes: This is the bottom quarter of the page.  It ties together many points found individually on the internet.  Bachelor's Yale, Master's at Harvard, did not complete Ph.D., one-man economics dept. at UofL 1916-1927.  State legislator, elected as Democrat in 1924, 1926, and 1934.  Member of national groups dealing with inheritance-law taxation.  Headed National Tax Association committee, whose work was adopted nationally in 1926, and suggestions from the committee were adopted in 46 states.  Helped found and was first president of the national American Legislator's Assn, started on a grant from the Rockefeller Foundation.  Trustee of Berea College most of the years from 1914 to death.  1952 4-year term as Vice-chairman of the Yale University Alumni Board.  Prior to WWII, headed Kentucky League of British Victory, and the Louisville branch of the Committee to Defend America by Aiding the Allies.  World War I served with the Am. Red Cross in England and France.  One of the founders and first president of the Falls Cities Co-operative Milk Producers Assn.  Former head Kentucky Purebred Sheep Breeders Assn.  President of American Saddle Horse Breeders Assn since 1956.  Gallant Guy champion horse raised on Land o' Goshen Farm.  WBB, 3 sisters, and step-mother bought the land for Belknap Campus.  (The Louisville history I saw makes me think the word "bought" here should be read as "contributed to buying".)  Unscintillating ( talk) 15:03, 23 August 2014 (UTC) reply

• Additional search terms: Belnap, W. B. Belknap, William Belknap, William B. Belknap.  Unscintillating ( talk) 15:03, 23 August 2014 (UTC) reply
• Additional references

• "Inheritance tax is principal topic of sessions. Utah Senator Declares great necessity exists for reform of revenue system of government". Deseret News. September 9, 1920. p. 8. Retrieved 2014-08-23. William B. Belknap of Louisville, Kentucky, chairman of the committee on inheritance taxes, gave a progress report on the subject. At present, he declared, state inheritance tax laws are in very much of a muddle. The committee, he declared, was not at all yet a unit on any proposed solution and the difficulties, and he invited suggestions from members of the association.

• "Nag flickers". Spokane Daily Chronicle. June 8, 1939. p. 1. Retrieved 2014-08-23. William Belknap, a horse breeder of Kentucky, uses color movies of his horses to sell them to far-away prospects.

• Louisville, KY (May 27, 1940). "Kentucky citizens urge aid to allies. Congress is asked to lift neutrality restrictions at Louisville meeting". The Montreal Gazette. p. 6. Retrieved 2014-08-23. William B. Belknap, former State legislator who acted as chairman of the meeting called by 21 civic and industrial leaders, told the audience he believed 'you express the sentiment of a large section of the American people.' 

• Harrisburg (October 16, 1933). "Traffic meet aims to pass uniform laws. Officials from 17 states will start Harrisburg sessions Friday. Fight restrictions. Height, weight and length of trucks and busses to be discussed". The Pittsburgh Press. p. 13. Retrieved 2014-08-23. ...organized by the American Legislators' Association...

• "North Oldham Lions Club". Retrieved 2014-08-23. The North Oldham Lions Club was given a 25-acre park in 1973 which was to be preserved as community park in memory of William Belknap. The property included two buildings (one for a small business and the other for community meetings and gatherings)...

• Nancy Stearns Theiss (April 30, 2014). "Oldham History. U.S. 42 was once 'Derby Highway'". Courier Journal. Retrieved 2014-08-23. Before Interstate 71....other popular stops along the road for Derby in Oldham County were the...Goshen Gardens (now owned by the North Oldham Lions Club)...Goshen Gardens, owned by William Belknap...
• M. Susan Murnane (August 22, 2005). "Andrew Mellon's unsuccessful attempt to repeal estate taxes". Retrieved 2014-08-23. Belknap, who was also a Kentucky state legislator and chair of the NTA Inheritance Tax Committee, advocated federal estate tax repeal combined with the adoption of uniform state inheritance tax statutes.⁵⁹

Cite 59 from the previous source is:

• 59 William B. Belknap, "State and Federal Policies of Inheritance or Death Taxation," 11 Proceedings of the Academy of Political Science in the City of New York 85-89 (1924).
• This source reminds us that more sources can be found in Google scholar.
• [2] is by itself a blog, but reports on the January 1945 issue of National Horseman, which itself talks about Land O'Goshen Farms, and has a picture of Pre-War-Stuff O'Goshen.

• "Sheep. Local history index". Lexington Public Library. Retrieved 2014-08-23. "Sheep school draws hundreds of farmers"...conducted by the University of Kentucky and the Kentucky Accredited Purebred Breeders' Association opened this morning at the farm of William Belknap, near Goshen. Mr. Belknap's flock includes Southdowns and Ryelands...Record 657863. 07/29/1930. Leader.

• "Hoover open legislators' meet". The Cornell Daily Sun. February 8, 1933. Retrieved 2014-08-23. The first interstate legislative assembly, convened in Washington...Left to right: William B. Belknap of Louisville, Ky...the President...Associated Press Photo

Unscintillating ( talk) 01:35, 24 August 2014 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, – Davey2010 • (talk) 18:27, 24 August 2014 (UTC) reply

• Comment. This is a fascinating exercise by Unscintillating, and a remarkable demonstration of the power of determination and the internet to unearth trivia. But let's be clear: none of this amounts to anything resembling notability. Specifically:
  • Having hundreds of sheep-farmers meet on your farm does not make you notable
  • Being in a room with the president does not make you notable
  • Coming from a rich family does not make you notable
  • Being at Yale does not make you notable
  • Choosing to run a farm instead of sitting in an office in the family business does not make you notable
  • Having a mother who is your father's wife does not make you notable (it used to be quite commonplace)
  • Being someone's husband's great-uncle does not make you notable.

And so on. What makes someone notable for our purposes is having extended in-depth coverage of that person's actions and achievements in numerous independent reliable sources. This person doesn't seem to have any achievements, so seeking that extensive coverage may be a vain exercise.

A question: if this person had been in, let us say, Bulgaria, would these mentions (university graduate, involved in local politics, photographed with the president, chairman of the local sheep-farmers' association, etc.) have made him seem important enough to merit an article?

I accept the criticism that, when reverting a mass of non-encyclopaedic COI additions, I also removed a valid reference to this character having been at Yale; I apologise for that. I do not accept suggestions that I should have fixed the article WP:BEFORE listing it here. The fix for this page is deletion; I didn't add any sources as there weren't any to add. Please note that as I mentioned above, I believe that the other, famous, William Burke Belknap might merit an article here, as might the hardware store, if only because of the peculiar incompetence that led to its demise. Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 19:35, 1 September 2014 (UTC) reply

A quick response on one point since this AfD could be closed at any moment.  The picture with the president does not show wp:notability because of being pictured with the president, it shows wp:notability because the president was attracted to the work that Belknap was doing.  The WP:N nutshell identifies "attracts attention" as a key component that identifies wp:notability.  Unscintillating ( talk) 20:31, 1 September 2014 (UTC) reply

Regarding, "Having hundreds of sheep-farmers meet on your farm does not make you notable", maybe and maybe not, but that is not the wp:notability shown by this source.  This is an article in a Lexington, KY newspaper, which is 77 miles from Goshen.  I don't literally know if Wikipedians consider the Lexington Leader to be a regional newspaper, but the successor newspaper, Lexington Herald-Leader, certainly is.  We know from the obituary that Belknap was at one time the head of Kentucky Purebred Sheep Breeders Assn (caveat, the article instead names "Kentucky Accredited Purebred Breeders' Association").  Unscintillating ( talk) 20:59, 1 September 2014 (UTC) reply

• Comment  WP:N states in the lede, "A topic is presumed to merit an article if all of the following are true:

• It meets either the general notability guideline below or the criteria outlined in a subject-specific guideline listed in the box on the right.
• It is not excluded under the What Wikipedia is not policy."

WP:Notability (people) states in Paragraph 2, "Additional criteria", "People are likely to be notable if they meet any of the following standards."

WP:Notability (people) states in Paragraph 2.7.1, "Politicians...who have...[been] former members of a national, state or provincial legislature."

Unscintillating ( talk) 21:57, 1 September 2014 (UTC) reply

• Comment |image-needed=yes|image-in=Louisville, Kentucky. Many are available but upload instructions are confusing, with many re-directs for templates. Would it be simpler to place photos in the "Summer of Monuments" appeal for photographs? Mitzi.humphrey ( talk) 15:43, 2 September 2014 (UTC) reply
• Keep. Satisfies WP:POLITICIAN as a former member of the Kentucky state legislature. James500 ( talk) 06:11, 4 September 2014 (UTC) reply

• Straight Keep - Notable enough on a couple of counts. - Richfife ( talk) 21:44, 5 September 2014 (UTC) reply

• KEEP -- It says he served two terms as Kentucky State House Representative. That meets criteria for WP:Politician "Politicians and judges who have held international, national or sub-national (statewide/provincewide) office" Everything else in the article can be fought over regarding relevance, verifiability, etc, but the article seems clearly a keeper... — Gaff ^ταλκ 02:45, 6 September 2014 (UTC) reply

• Note: A request for closure has been posted here. – S. Rich ( talk) 03:58, 6 September 2014 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.