The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was Draftify. Sometimes reslitings can prompt a consensus as editors discuss the fate of an article. Just a note, do not strike out any "votes"/arguments unless the editor is a confirmed sockpuppet of a block-evading editor. Being an inexperienced editor, especially inexperienced with commenting at AFDs, doesn't warrant having ones opinion struck. LizRead!Talk!17:46, 19 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment: I have also tried to review the article in question but the article major contributor kept reverting some of my good faith edits. And in order to avoid edit warring Otuọcha (
talk)09:50, 27 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment - I can see no vandalism. Tagging by the nom seems appropriate but there has been edit warring to remove valid tags which has led to this AfD. Whether this AfD is valid remains to be seen but the sourcing of this article is very weak and should probably be at Draft instead of mainspace. VelellaVelella Talk 10:02, 27 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Note: Appearing on multiple sources even reliable ones doesn't mean Notability. They can be just mere press releases, blogs or created by the subject. The organisation she founded even fails
WP: ORG. Thus, I can basically say there is no notability.
Per
WP: BEFORE, I also believe there can be sources out there. Simply rewrite the page, since the neutrality is disputed. Remember also that Press release and blog posts are not reliable Just advice!!! Otuọcha (
talk)10:43, 27 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete: Just not enough sourcing. The Financial Times article is solid. The BBC is an interview, the rest are about her speaking in a panel of two or three people... This is brief coverage
[1] and this is also a brief mention
[2]. I tried French sources, not much else turns up. One more good source, I think we'd be ok
Oaktree b (
talk)
02:52, 6 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep: Although I would prefer better sources, the interviews have some valuable content before the interview. I can't find the specific guideline right now, but I remember somewhere seeing that although the interview itself is primary, the information the source often provides before the interview can be considered a secondary source. As such, if we accept the Financial Times source, then the couple of paragraphs introducing her in the Forbes article, we're good.
Significa liberdade (she/her) (
talk)
04:54, 9 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Relisting. Opinion is divided so let's try one more relist so this doesn't need to close as No consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, LizRead!Talk!22:04, 12 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete: I agree FT is a solid source but the others are interviews or not in-depth. I searched for other sources but came up with the same. The Forbes article is also largely an interview and was written by a contributor rather than staff so is not a reliable source per
WP:FORBESCON.
S0091 (
talk)
16:05, 13 March 2024 (UTC)reply
The article has no named author just "Forbes Africa" which is always suspect and the only policies/standards they have are Advertising Terms & Conditions and Privacy. Compare that to FT which has a named author and a robust Editorial Code. That's not say Forbes Africa is not usable but it needs to be used with caution so a weak source.
As for the content you have highlighted below, the portions that talk about what she wants and what her plans are emanating from her as she is the only person that can know her wants/plans so that's primary and mostly about the business rather than her. YSWARA
closed last year which is largely the claim for notability given almost all the sources are in the context of her founding YSWARA. I did check for sources in the past year but only found
this which is mostly about Africa's agri-business in general with little independent content about her. Maybe she can meet notability in the future but she doesn't currently.
S0091 (
talk)
17:19, 16 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Essentially every news source has articles that are bylined directly as their publication name, so I don't know if it's fair to say Forbes Africa is not reliable without any discussion, such as Forbes India.
The first, part of the third, and the fourth paragraph seem secondary enough to me. Even if most of her notability stems from YSWARA that isn't a 1E thing or WP:INHERIT. I'd say it's still a weakish keep from me. TLAtlak01:12, 17 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment: Even at some point, interviews per
WP: INTERVIEW can serve as secondary source and per
WP: COMMONSENSE, if and only if it's significant and thus, an indepth analysis for the subject. Some of the sources (per interview; if not all) in no way treats the subject solely and talked any information about the subject. How then, do it adds to notability. Example: a part of the article stated; In 2012, Forbes considered her one of the 20 most influential young African women. And looking at this
source from
Forbes, there were none like that. All the Best! Otuọcha (
talk)01:58, 16 March 2024 (UTC)reply
I agree with what you're saying about WP:INTERVIEW. We should also completely disregard the Forbes.com article as it's written by a contributor, per
WP:FORBESCON, I also can't find where Forbes writes that she is one of the 20 most influential young African women.
But the Forbes Africa article contains good information about her work. She is not inheriting notability from the company (there is essentially more about what she is doing with Yswara than what Yswara itself is doing).
Extended content
Yswara, a luxury tea company based in Johannesburg, South Africa, was launched in 2012. Its founder and CEO, Swaady Martin-Leke, a national of Côte d’Ivoire, hand-selects the tea from the various African countries, to incorporate into her company’s collection of 23 varieties of tea.
This curator of precious African teas wants to make her offering a prestigious product through educating customers on the quality and benefits of African teas, by creating an experience that includes African tea rituals, African-made tea paraphernalia and elegant packaging.
Martin-Leke sources Yswara’s tea from South Africa, Malawi, Rwanda and Kenya with plans to source from Burundi, Cameroon, Madagascar, Malawi, Rwanda and Zimbabwe. All her staff are women and the suppliers must be 75% female-owned or managed.
Martin-Leke is already shipping her luxury tea around the world via her online store and online partners like africacandy.com.
Draftify - Per Oaktree b, we are not at GNG yet, but close. Strictly speaking then, it is not a keep on the sources we have thus far, and I am hesitant to suggest any kind of IAR keep. But look at the title of the Le Monde article that (briefly) mentions her as a woman in business in Africa: "On doit toujours prouver qu’on est capables" - "We must always prove that we're capable" and somehow I think this rings true in Wikipedia biographies too, which skew white male. If she were an American businessman, I bet the sourcing would be there. I think we probably should have this article, and the encyclopaedia would be a little better for having it. I am not happy with deleting this, whilst recognising that we could do with another secondary source. The article is a good start, but there is a lot more that could be done to it. Some of the statements appear somewhat promotional (e.g. the way the Forbes interview is presented). !voting draftify, where it could be incubated further, but if that doesn't have consensus, I'd be weakly for keep.
Sirfurboy🏄 (
talk)
09:24, 19 March 2024 (UTC)reply
While I think a keep is fine, I think this draftify idea is a good closer and appropriately addresses the delete votes. This probably shouldn't be relisted again, and there's consensus that one source, FT, is strong, but as we need "multiple" sources, interviews can be iffy. TLAtlak09:59, 19 March 2024 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was Draftify. Sometimes reslitings can prompt a consensus as editors discuss the fate of an article. Just a note, do not strike out any "votes"/arguments unless the editor is a confirmed sockpuppet of a block-evading editor. Being an inexperienced editor, especially inexperienced with commenting at AFDs, doesn't warrant having ones opinion struck. LizRead!Talk!17:46, 19 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment: I have also tried to review the article in question but the article major contributor kept reverting some of my good faith edits. And in order to avoid edit warring Otuọcha (
talk)09:50, 27 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment - I can see no vandalism. Tagging by the nom seems appropriate but there has been edit warring to remove valid tags which has led to this AfD. Whether this AfD is valid remains to be seen but the sourcing of this article is very weak and should probably be at Draft instead of mainspace. VelellaVelella Talk 10:02, 27 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Note: Appearing on multiple sources even reliable ones doesn't mean Notability. They can be just mere press releases, blogs or created by the subject. The organisation she founded even fails
WP: ORG. Thus, I can basically say there is no notability.
Per
WP: BEFORE, I also believe there can be sources out there. Simply rewrite the page, since the neutrality is disputed. Remember also that Press release and blog posts are not reliable Just advice!!! Otuọcha (
talk)10:43, 27 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete: Just not enough sourcing. The Financial Times article is solid. The BBC is an interview, the rest are about her speaking in a panel of two or three people... This is brief coverage
[1] and this is also a brief mention
[2]. I tried French sources, not much else turns up. One more good source, I think we'd be ok
Oaktree b (
talk)
02:52, 6 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep: Although I would prefer better sources, the interviews have some valuable content before the interview. I can't find the specific guideline right now, but I remember somewhere seeing that although the interview itself is primary, the information the source often provides before the interview can be considered a secondary source. As such, if we accept the Financial Times source, then the couple of paragraphs introducing her in the Forbes article, we're good.
Significa liberdade (she/her) (
talk)
04:54, 9 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Relisting. Opinion is divided so let's try one more relist so this doesn't need to close as No consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, LizRead!Talk!22:04, 12 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete: I agree FT is a solid source but the others are interviews or not in-depth. I searched for other sources but came up with the same. The Forbes article is also largely an interview and was written by a contributor rather than staff so is not a reliable source per
WP:FORBESCON.
S0091 (
talk)
16:05, 13 March 2024 (UTC)reply
The article has no named author just "Forbes Africa" which is always suspect and the only policies/standards they have are Advertising Terms & Conditions and Privacy. Compare that to FT which has a named author and a robust Editorial Code. That's not say Forbes Africa is not usable but it needs to be used with caution so a weak source.
As for the content you have highlighted below, the portions that talk about what she wants and what her plans are emanating from her as she is the only person that can know her wants/plans so that's primary and mostly about the business rather than her. YSWARA
closed last year which is largely the claim for notability given almost all the sources are in the context of her founding YSWARA. I did check for sources in the past year but only found
this which is mostly about Africa's agri-business in general with little independent content about her. Maybe she can meet notability in the future but she doesn't currently.
S0091 (
talk)
17:19, 16 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Essentially every news source has articles that are bylined directly as their publication name, so I don't know if it's fair to say Forbes Africa is not reliable without any discussion, such as Forbes India.
The first, part of the third, and the fourth paragraph seem secondary enough to me. Even if most of her notability stems from YSWARA that isn't a 1E thing or WP:INHERIT. I'd say it's still a weakish keep from me. TLAtlak01:12, 17 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment: Even at some point, interviews per
WP: INTERVIEW can serve as secondary source and per
WP: COMMONSENSE, if and only if it's significant and thus, an indepth analysis for the subject. Some of the sources (per interview; if not all) in no way treats the subject solely and talked any information about the subject. How then, do it adds to notability. Example: a part of the article stated; In 2012, Forbes considered her one of the 20 most influential young African women. And looking at this
source from
Forbes, there were none like that. All the Best! Otuọcha (
talk)01:58, 16 March 2024 (UTC)reply
I agree with what you're saying about WP:INTERVIEW. We should also completely disregard the Forbes.com article as it's written by a contributor, per
WP:FORBESCON, I also can't find where Forbes writes that she is one of the 20 most influential young African women.
But the Forbes Africa article contains good information about her work. She is not inheriting notability from the company (there is essentially more about what she is doing with Yswara than what Yswara itself is doing).
Extended content
Yswara, a luxury tea company based in Johannesburg, South Africa, was launched in 2012. Its founder and CEO, Swaady Martin-Leke, a national of Côte d’Ivoire, hand-selects the tea from the various African countries, to incorporate into her company’s collection of 23 varieties of tea.
This curator of precious African teas wants to make her offering a prestigious product through educating customers on the quality and benefits of African teas, by creating an experience that includes African tea rituals, African-made tea paraphernalia and elegant packaging.
Martin-Leke sources Yswara’s tea from South Africa, Malawi, Rwanda and Kenya with plans to source from Burundi, Cameroon, Madagascar, Malawi, Rwanda and Zimbabwe. All her staff are women and the suppliers must be 75% female-owned or managed.
Martin-Leke is already shipping her luxury tea around the world via her online store and online partners like africacandy.com.
Draftify - Per Oaktree b, we are not at GNG yet, but close. Strictly speaking then, it is not a keep on the sources we have thus far, and I am hesitant to suggest any kind of IAR keep. But look at the title of the Le Monde article that (briefly) mentions her as a woman in business in Africa: "On doit toujours prouver qu’on est capables" - "We must always prove that we're capable" and somehow I think this rings true in Wikipedia biographies too, which skew white male. If she were an American businessman, I bet the sourcing would be there. I think we probably should have this article, and the encyclopaedia would be a little better for having it. I am not happy with deleting this, whilst recognising that we could do with another secondary source. The article is a good start, but there is a lot more that could be done to it. Some of the statements appear somewhat promotional (e.g. the way the Forbes interview is presented). !voting draftify, where it could be incubated further, but if that doesn't have consensus, I'd be weakly for keep.
Sirfurboy🏄 (
talk)
09:24, 19 March 2024 (UTC)reply
While I think a keep is fine, I think this draftify idea is a good closer and appropriately addresses the delete votes. This probably shouldn't be relisted again, and there's consensus that one source, FT, is strong, but as we need "multiple" sources, interviews can be iffy. TLAtlak09:59, 19 March 2024 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.