- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete, the list is still unverifiable by non-trivial and independent coverage on the subject. The article reads like fan-cruft and is not substantiated with reliable sources. Perhaps it would do better to merge the substantiated content with the publisher's article, or a list of publications. Article will be recreated in userspace upon request. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 09:35, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
The noob
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This is yet another non-notable web comic, whose appeal seems very limited. The only places mentioning it seem to be blogs, forums, chat rooms, social sites, and other pages of little to no value or notability. Wikipedia is not a DMOZ-style directory, and we should only be listing notable web comics - i.e., those which have had a noticeable effect on culture, society, and media, and are cited by established publications. This comic doesn't seem to have had much of an influence at all. Including any and all buzz found on Web 2.0 sites only leads to fancruft. NetOracle 01:49, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- keep. as the article states, the webcomic has received some acclaim. As there is no real policy on what makes a webcomic notable, this article should be preserved. Niffweed17, Destroyer of Chickens 01:55, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not disputing that. My problem with this webcomic-cruft is that the acclaim and praise comes from a very small segment of the population, as posted on personal sites, blogs, forums, etc, rather than from notable published sources. There seems to be an endless number of aspiring artists and adherents to the "Internet media culture" who can do little more than
regurgitate
memes and engage in self-promotion. Where are we going to draw the line?
NetOracle 02:03, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Well, why invalidate the feedback of blogs? The very presence of positive feedback, even if only largely present among internet communities, should account for some notability. It might not under Wikipedia policy. but such a distinction is immaterial as there presently is no policy to govern the treatment of this medium.
Niffweed17, Destroyer of Chickens 02:21, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Blogs in general are not a reliable or noteworthy source. There are exceptions, of course, but the vast majority of blogs are sites for personal ramblings, and devoid of any audience not known to the author personally. We're talking about several orders of magnitude here. Basically, anything can be considered notable if personal sites are allowed to serve as a basis for notability. It is not hard at all to establish a personal site, and participate in enough community-driven forms of media to build several hundred references to that site by means of self-promotion. Thus, how can anything present in the non-notable blogs, but nowhere else, be considered notable?
NetOracle 02:41, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- MMORPG.COM, Worldofwarcraft.com, the Web Comic Cartoonist Chioice Awards are NOT Blogs, ramblings, or personal sites. They are HUGE websites with significant populations of content creators and visitors. Timmccloud 02:52, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Blogs in general are not a reliable or noteworthy source. There are exceptions, of course, but the vast majority of blogs are sites for personal ramblings, and devoid of any audience not known to the author personally. We're talking about several orders of magnitude here. Basically, anything can be considered notable if personal sites are allowed to serve as a basis for notability. It is not hard at all to establish a personal site, and participate in enough community-driven forms of media to build several hundred references to that site by means of self-promotion. Thus, how can anything present in the non-notable blogs, but nowhere else, be considered notable?
NetOracle 02:41, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Well, why invalidate the feedback of blogs? The very presence of positive feedback, even if only largely present among internet communities, should account for some notability. It might not under Wikipedia policy. but such a distinction is immaterial as there presently is no policy to govern the treatment of this medium.
Niffweed17, Destroyer of Chickens 02:21, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Webcomics-related deletions. -- Sid 3050 02:09, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Strong Keep - Once again a small minority of wikipedians are trying to delete notable webcomics. It's notability arises from 1) it has been published somewhere OTHER than it's home page (MMORPG.COM), which is NOT a just a "blog, forum, etc", it's a huge portal of content for MMORPG gamers. 2) There are over 7 million people playing World of Warcraft across the world, and the comic has been featured notibly on the WOW home page. 3) It has been nominated for awards - and as much as a large quantity of wikipedia editors don't want to recognize it - the web comic choice awards ARE a big deal in the field of webcomics, and being nominated meets notablity guidelines. All three of these items make this comic notable, notwithstanding the critical reviews included in the article. So to nominate it for deleteion SOLEY for the fact that it's not mentioned in the "buzz" on Web 2.0 sites this makes is absurd. And to nominate it for deletion because the reviews don't meet some personal criteria of "notablity" when there are other obvious reasons for notability is also unwarranted. Finally your editing comment "(Non-notable web comic, and we're going to sack it.)" shows you to be extremely biased on this topic in general, and your neutrality on this issue now brought into question. Timmccloud 02:48, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Note: for discussion purposes, anyone who is interested in this topic should also review the original discussion by following this link: [2] Timmccloud 02:59, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Note: I find it a FASCINATING coincidence that the nomination for deletion has occured during the authors annual vaction (She won't be back until Feb 18th) so arguably the best reference for information about recent notabilty events is convienently away during the nomination for deletion. I don't suppose that the AFD might possibly be withdrawn until she returns? Timmccloud 03:08, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Reply The sources of supposed notability that you reference suffer from many of the same pitfalls of blogs, forums, and chat rooms.
- First, this "ubersite" looks to be fairly open, and thus, the words of any one poster do not carry the weight or the reputation of the site as would the words of a senior staff writer for, as an example, Forbes Magazine.
- Next, we will address "MMORPG.COM". The only reference to the article's subject is the presence of one single strip, along with a link to the strip's website. There is no review or assertion of notability, and we don't know who is endorsing the comic, or why. Once again, the existence of a mention on a large or notable site does not necessarily convey any weight when determining notability. If I post an classified ad for used computer parts on
Craigslist, is it proper to say that I am a "Active secondhand electronics distributor featured on an
Alexa Top 100 website"?
- Reply Duh. The CURRENT comic is reposted on MMORPG every time a new one comes out. This has been happening for over a year - that constitues "publication". And it's part of the main site navigation, which means that it is PART OF THE WEBSITE. It's not just "posted" by someone. Unfortunately the press release that stated the publication is no longer available on the web, so all that can be done is post the link to the current page. Timmccloud 17:39, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- If you comment on an upstart technology company, it does not make them notable. If Tim Berners-Lee, Bill Gates, or BusinessWeek makes the same comment, then it may very well make the company notable. The common theme here is that "what is said" and "where it is said" is less important than "who says it".
- As for the "Web Cartoonists' Choice Awards", this "organization" is not notable in itself. It appears to be some loosely-organized group of Internet cartoonists, established for the sake of mutual promotion. Awards are only notable if given by a notable organization, and this organization seems to be little more than a hastily constructed site maintained by a very small number of people who share a hobby. Every E-Mail address on the site is some form of free mail, and the site itself is poorly built. Furthermore, the site is hosted and operated by "Keenspace Entertainment", apparently for the purpose of drawing attention to the webcomics it hosts.
- There are a great many notable websites which provide a constant stream of linkage. Most of this linkage is, however, not notable. Should everybody or everything which gets featured on the front page of the abomination known as " Digg" receive an article on Wikipedia?
- The problem I have with the criteria being used here is that any single person, or a few devoted fans, given a few sockpuppets at user-driven sites, or just a regularly updated personal blog, can, under the criteria, elevate a personal creation to a level of notability warranting inclusion.
- The majority of these webcomics have become entrenched because their main readership - namely, those who are on the Internet for recreation constantly - edits Wikipedia with a frequency far removed from the general population. Some of these webcomics, which are essentially personal hobbies of their creators, have articles which far exceed multi-season national television shows and major motion pictures, in both depth and length. Think what you will about the worth and notability of webcomics, but please do not suggest that encyclopediac integrity is served by such a horribly disproportionate representation.
- Please, again, tell me why these webcomics are notable, and how they matter in the overall scheme of things.
- Your comment concerning the timing of the discussion, and the hushed accusation of my intentions as being based in bad faith, is rather inappropriate. I couldn't have named a single webcomic as of yesterday, and only began to care about these things yesterday after I saw a solid case for deletion destroyed by insane levels of meatpuppetry and fanboyism. I have a strong concern that postponing this discussion until the author returns will only allow time for a similar meatpuppet army to assemble. I'm not here to attack a specific strip - I only became involved in this because I saw the professionalism of Wikipedia being compromised by a steady encroachment of fancruft, and wanted to remedy the situation. NetOracle 03:41, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- UM. Where to begin... let's just focus on the things I can handle at 5am. The WCCA has been around since 2001 and also awards comics outside Keenspace (as a quick peek and ANY list of nominations would have told you), so it's hardly hastily assembled or promoting Keenspace comics. It has also been covered on TV, radio and has received half an article in the New York Times. This year's nomination will be at Megacon.
- Your "meatpuppet army" will be the people who maintain the article. Sorry to tell you that, but slipping in an AfD while the comic is vacationing (and thus the editors may not feel the need to check the Wiki article since nothing changed) is going to look fairly bad.
- May I ask what your "solid case for deletion" was? There have been 50+ (by now possibly 60+) such cases for webcomics alone during the past month, so it's somewhat hard to guess which one you mean. The recent wave (to which you just contributed) also explains the "meatpuppet" syndrome you oppose so much - The webcomic world is pretty much up in arms right now because of the dozens of AfDs that axed a few entries of comics that steadily updated for half a decade or so. Another entry of a published comic got axed and had to be recreated via DRV.
- Oh, and somehow, your last paragraph makes it VERY hard to assume good faith. You effectively made the nominations because you saw another AfD being flooded. "Assuming good faith is about intentions, not actions."
- Didn't you stop to think WHY the AfD got flooded? Your effort only contributes to the larger problem - the reputation of Wikipedia in the webcomic world. But considering that you "couldn't have named a single webcomic as of yesterday", I assume that this is not one of your major concerns. --
Sid 3050 04:45, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- The WCCA is not notable. Its website is of shoddy quality. It is hosted by an entity with a set of comics to promote, and therefore not impartial. Its awards seem to be distributed based on raw popular vote. Its coordinators have failed to establish their notability. Please provide evidence of "TV coverage". Is everything mentioned in any small capacity now suddenly notable?
- reply not every non-profit orginization has the funding to hire the best webmasters, often these notable groups do with voulenteer work. Your assertion that the orginization is not notable based on 1) the quality of their website and 2) keenspot sponsering it has no merit. Timmccloud 17:39, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- The WCCA is not notable. Its website is of shoddy quality. It is hosted by an entity with a set of comics to promote, and therefore not impartial. Its awards seem to be distributed based on raw popular vote. Its coordinators have failed to establish their notability. Please provide evidence of "TV coverage". Is everything mentioned in any small capacity now suddenly notable?
- You said that the creator is on vacation, yet you assert that there is a large group of legitimate editors who wrote the article. Why should the creator's vacation have anything to do with this, unless you anticipated him rallying a group of puppets to action?
- Have you considered that the trend of AfD'ing webcomics might be the result of a general backlash against fancruft accumulating within a walled garden? Not everything is a vendetta or conspiracy.
- I made the AfD because I saw another AfD in which a meatpuppet army tried to save an article about a non-notable subject. The Ugly Hill AfD was flooded with meatpuppets, and possibly sockpuppets. This should not be happening, and reflects poorly on those who engaged in ballot stuffing. This is the result of external fanboyism spilling over into Wikipedia. This sort of passion for a specific and generally non-notable string of subjects and characters is best reserved for a specific Wiki hosted by a Wikia-esque service.
- Have you
considered that I might have made these nominations for deletion because I honestly believe in principles such as
verifiability,
reliable sources, and
encyclopedic standards? I am an outsider to the world of webcomics, and don't see how the hundreds of strips featured by Wikipedia are notable to the rest of us. You are right - webcomics are not my concern. Improving Wikipedia is.
NetOracle 05:01, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- WCCA: NYT, TV, Radio (link is to the announcement, but I have no reason to doubt the validity). The website is easy to navigate, and I don't see how it is "shoddy". Subjectivity, much? And an official Wal-Mart site had been completely broken in Firefox for a good while. Would that mean that Wal-Mart is non-notable? (No, don't answer that, I just used the example to stress the point that "good website" is not a notability criterion).
- I did not "anticipate" a rally, but common sense implies that article editing frequency is in some relation to event frequency. When is it more likely for most editors to visit an article? When the primary information source does not update or when it does?
- I am in no position to judge why dozens of major comic entries get vaped in large waves, but the nominations I saw hint that there either is bias or that the nominations were made by people with little knowledge about webcomics at all. The fact that the webcomic awards were quietly edged out of the Web Notability rules and then got vaped from Wikipedia (surrounded by quick nominations for comics that based their notability on them) sort of makes it hard to assume good faith for the whole situation.
- Yes, I feared that you meant Ugly Hill. It's an award-winning and published webcomic, so of course the webcomic community (already in a "I might be next!" mood) spread the word about this nomination. There is a world outside of Wikipedia, and you can't expect it to stay silent during these deletion waves. Right now, the reputation of Wikipedia has suffered immensely in the eyes of webcomic communities, so you should expect a strong reaction to AfDs, especially for major comics. I'm not saying that I think this is a good thing, but I am realistic enough to see that it is quite inevitable.
- Before your comments, I did assume good faith. But now I only see somebody nominating articles of a genre he knows nothing about, for the sole reason of retaliation for an AfD going a way you don't like. Your actions seem noble, but your motivation is not. I simply cannot assume that you act in good faith. This is just you going all "Oh, so you didn't like that, huh? Let's see how you like THIS!". So please spare me the "My only goal is to improve Wikipedia" talk, it sounds mighty hollow. --
Sid 3050 12:38, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- I noticed that nobody has offered a rebuttal to my analysis of all the sources as unreliable and non-notable, with the specific exception of that awards committee.
- Wikipedia has established policies and guidelines as to what sources are acceptable, and how those sources should be interpreted. Please see verifiability, reliable sources, and encyclopedic standards. WP:WEB does apply here, but its guidelines for sourcing material and determining notability and verifiability are still shaped by the other policies and guidelines dealing with source integrity.
- When you apply policy to the majority of these articles on webcomics, the articles lose the footing on which their supporters built them. Enthusiasm can be good, and is admirable, but we, as editors, need to exercise some professional integrity in our analysis of source material.
- One good rule of thumb for determining notability is the test of time. I have a concern that the majority of these webcomic-related articles will, 5-10 years from now, be unpublished and virtually unknown. Now, granted, there are many notable webcomics. Among these are ones which set milestones for revenue and exposure, shaped the evolution of the genre, and influenced humanity in a broad sense. This is why the entry on Columella is valid - does anyone here honestly believe that the majority of these comics will still be remembered in 2 decades, let alone 2 millenia?
- The majority of these entries are fancruft, and are beginning to look like a walled garden.
- There was meatpuppetry on the Ugly Hill AfD. Recruiting supporters offsite to bolster an AfD argument is not proper, and is against policy.
- If these articles were notable on their own, you wouldn't have to rally your supporters to stop the deletion from going forward. A notable subject's article will be written by disinterested third parties, in the spirit of building Wikipedia. A non-notable subject's article will only be written by fans and other strong supporters. Your claim that this deletion was timed to coincide with the author's vacation only furthers my case against this article as fancruft. If this article is notable, then it will stand on its own, and without the evils of meatpuppetry or bloc voting.
- During a time when Wikipedia is struggling for acceptance as a solid and reliable reference, the expansion of fancruft and non-notable material only dilutes the reputation of the encyclopedia as a whole. NetOracle 18:15, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Groan. Pay attention who you reply to. I was not the one who brought up the timing, I am not the one who is rallying anybody. Indeed, I think YOU are the one who instantly started pointing fingers about rallying people. Paranoia, much? And if you had paid any attention at all, you would have noticed that I haven't even voiced any Delete/Keep opinion so far, so I'm hardly the one you could accuse of meatpuppetry or fancruft or whatever.
- I think it's a given that in TWO THOUSAND YEARS, not even Wikipedia will be remembered. So let's delete everything! Your entire "must influence humanity" and "must stand the test of time" makes me curious. Please point out the exact policy that lists these things as requirements. Cite sources. I'm honestly curious.
- The current flood of AfDs is a nasty call for sources, so I think it's a double standard to call for sources, but protest when new people join to argue about whether certain sources count or not.
- Additionally, AfDs like the one for Starslip Crisis are based on the simple fact that an admin decided to ignore given sources for an award and declared it to be non-notable. And all of a sudden, a well-sourced article becomes not sourced at all. If an Admin suddenly declared CNN or the NYT to be non-notable, how many articles would fail to stand on their own? You cling to policies, but blindly accept that the wikiality suddenly changes. If/when WCCA gets restored, will you say "Yes, of course it fulfills policy"? I surely hope so.
- A webcomic with more than five years of archived material, hundreds or thousands of strips and a dedicated fanbase don't count AT ALL in the current Web Notability rules. Without a dedicated newspaper article or a lengthy TV report, such a comic will be declared as non-notable as the average Geocities page. And thanks to the eager Admins who quickly got rid of the major webcomic awards, Wikipedia has become a "Get published or get out" site. So please tell me this: Is that the greater goal of Wikipedia? Kick out everything that hasn't changed the fate of mankind?
- And I honestly ask you: What hurts the reputation of Wikipedia more: A few articles about things that have a large following, or pissing off thousands of people that read about Wikipedia's mass deletions on tons of blogs and webcomic news?
- Oh, and people ignoring your "analysis" does not mean that you are right by default, even if you'd like to imply it. -- Sid 3050 19:39, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Not every word of that reply was directed toward you. There are a number of parallel discussions occuring in this deletion debate, and I chose to save time by combining my thoughts into a single reply.
- I never leveled an accusation of meatpuppetry or solicitation of meatpuppetry against any specific editor. I merely pointed out that a recent AfD had been plagued by an invasion of meatpuppets hell-bent on perpetuated the fancruft within. If an article can only be saved through meatpuppetry, its subject probably isn't notable to begin with. When I stand accused of timing my nomination to coincide with the vacation of a webcomic's author, I have to question why the author's vacation should even enter in to the equation. Is the motion for postponment based strictly on a desire to see one person be able to comment on the AfD, or is it a cover for something more sinister, such as the author making a website, forum, chat, or blog entry soliciting meatpuppet activity?
- It is incivil to accuse another editor of being a meatpuppet or soliciting meatpuppets without probable cause, which is why I made no such accusation. I merely used the presence of meatpuppets in a completely seperate AfD as an indicator of problems within that AfD.
- I cannot speak for other editors, but I did not put forth this nomination as an underhanded and hostile way of calling for sources. We have templates which are used to request sources when an article which probably meets notability guidelines is lacking the sources which make it whole. I put forth this nomination because I have a genuine belief that this webcomic does not meet notability guidelines, and the sources it is built on fail to establish notability and importance in a manner which maintains professionalism and encyclopedic integrity. Wikipedia has policies on verifiability, reliable sources, and encyclopedic standards for good reason. I feel the letter and spirit of these policies is breached by this article and the sources used to support its alledged notability.
- There IS some serious fancruft going on here. Regardless of whether the article is deemed to be notable or not, this and many other webcomic-related articles have articles in size and depth which are grossly disproportionate to their notability and importance. Why should a webcomic, produced as a hobby, and having a limited readership in the thousands of tens of thousands, contain plot summaries and character descriptions with far more clarity than is present in the articles of most major motion pictures and nationally syndicated television programs?
- If other people are offended or upset because something they find amusing is deleted according to established policies of verifiability, reliable sources, and encyclopedic standards, then that is their problem. I cannot control whether they choose to follow and believe in the letter and spirit of Wikipedia's policies or not. Good-faith AfD nominations are not disparagements of the subjects or authors involved.
- In proper debate, failing to make a mention, let alone a rebuttal, is a de facto admission of surrender on a specific point. NetOracle 20:25, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- So you de facto admit that the WCCA is notable? You didn't bring it up anymore when I cited the sources... :P (Cutting off the rest at this point since it has gotten WAYYYYY out of hand, so this will most likely be my last edit here. Well, that, and Wikipedia is seriously eating away my free time - do the established Wiki editors have a life outside the Wiki? If so, please tell me your secret! O_o) -- Sid 3050 21:43, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- keep This comic is way more notable than most of the rest. I can see where some people not familiar with the scene might delete the other ones, but this one is so notable that anything against it is just hate toward non traditional entertainment. Wizardbrad 04:41, 10 February 2007 (UTC) — Wizardbrad ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- keep seems notable enough and the article is fairly well written. Variety of articles is what makes wikipedia impressive as a living encyclodpedia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Justinboden86 ( talk • contribs) 04:52, 10 February 2007 (UTC).
- Keep It is notable enough. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Luckyherb ( talk • contribs) 06:45, 10 February 2007 (UTC).
- Keep. I had not heard of this strip prior to perusing the AFDs in examining the contention that webcomics are being targeted. Alexa ranking (32,000) bears out what the various links within the article and the previous VFD indicate, namely, that this is a very heavily trafficked comic with great prominence in the online RPG community. That is has been published independently online as well as in print make it clearly notable by the standards of Wikipedia. I will further note that the assertion of the WCCA as non-notable is disputable. I do not wish to assume bad faith, but I find NetOracle's expressed desire to "sack" this article to be a disturbing indicator of such. Balancer 08:47, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep I am an avid reader of the comic, as well as many people I know both personally and through the internet. We are certainly not meatpuppets and I take offense at this insinuation. Through his claims of ballot stuffing and meatpuppetry, NetOracle could explain away any kind of following or rallying in defense of this comic without any proof. Simply because he does not take interest in this webcomic or others does not mean it is not notable. Sheora 09:48, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Strong Keep I fail to see the validity in NetOracle's argument on notability. Among webcomic circles, The Noob is regularly very highly ranked on two of the three comic listings, and has a very active and supportive reader community. If this was a "Webcomic Wiki" there should be little doubt that all webcomics that are a) active and b) regularly updated should be represented. So why here is the judgement made that being only a webcomic individual instances that have not been presented in mainstream national media should be considered not notable?
- You admit yourself that you hadn't really encountered webcomics - you are most likely a totally inappropriate person to judge the notability of an individual entity in a sphere that does not interest you. Someone may be interested in military modelling and do an article on a specific era of modelling -- totally uninteresting to me, but probably extremely useful for some die hard modelling fanatics, and good for them. Wikipedia is precisely about having in depth and accurate articles broadly across as many topics is possible for the information and reading of the general public. On the whole I only come to Wikipedia to look up things I don't already know about.
- You claim that the support comes from a small section of population? So does most support for things that are not worldwide phenomena, so why would that make them less interesting as included articles as a whole? I suspect there is more current interest in The Noob than, for example, the Roman writer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columella, yet he manages to escape any need for deletion. Why not have every writer from every culture ever that there is some kind of written record of? Most of those will not be at all notable to vast swathes of the population, yet I suspect there will be little complaint about such historical figures.
- You talk about main media resources. I doubt for a second that BBC News, Reuters, Tim Berners-Lee, Bill Gates, ZDNet or anyone else has written about Columella, so lets sack that article too. In fact, lets Google for each Wiki article we find that looks obscure, and if there appears to be no large international media story or commentary about them then sack those articles too! And so we can steadily destroy the fantastic library of genuine interest articles that Wikipedia has managed to set up.
- This site builds its reputation for two reasons. Firstly, it is on the whole well researched, works hard to avoid bias and provide a balanced argument in areas of contention, and is well presented and supported both by users and moderators. Secondly, it is extremely broad with a wide reach into the most obscure of subcategories in any given subject. Webcomics are now popular enough that some writers earn their entire living from donations, and I cannot see how your personal interest in them can be used as a judging factor in whether or not they should be allowed on Wikipedia.
- So having already had so many comments that it should be kept in this discussion, perhaps it is notable to enough people to keep, especially as so far your reasoning for removing it appears not to have gathered much momentum? And perhaps webcomic entries should be moderated and marked potentially as AfD by administrators and content moderators with some level of interest in webcomics as a whole?
Topazg 11:02, 10 February 2007 (UTC) —
Topazg (
talk •
contribs) has made
few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Comment. Topazg happens to be an articulate editor who's familiar with the subject and puts thought and effort into his messages, while the nominator started editing yesterday, admits to having no knowledge about the field and has concerned himself with little else than deletion nominations and discussions. --
Kizor 21:06, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- This was about a 'few or other edits' tag that appears to be no longer here. --
Kizor 00:38, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- The spa tag was removed by Wizardbrad's sockpuppet. I put it back, but note that I did not originally put it there, nor necessarily agree with it.. -- Krator 01:00, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- This was about a 'few or other edits' tag that appears to be no longer here. --
Kizor 00:38, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Comment. Topazg happens to be an articulate editor who's familiar with the subject and puts thought and effort into his messages, while the nominator started editing yesterday, admits to having no knowledge about the field and has concerned himself with little else than deletion nominations and discussions. --
Kizor 21:06, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Comment. Can we all slow down a bit here before we get carried away? On all sides? The debate has been getting pretty heated. Timmccloud, even if we had any reason to assume that NetOracle knew the comic's author was away, it wouldn't make a difference. Articles are supposed to stand on their own merits. Getting authors involved is in no way policy, required or common, nor has it been beneficial in several cases where one did get involved. --
Kizor 11:24, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- In the case of these "I see no sources, so let's AfD it to encourage the editors to find them" AfDs, it's highly counter-productive to nominate comics that are on a brief hiatus. -- Sid 3050 12:38, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Continuing the comment after I was distracted by shiny things and a relative closed the window (this part is written after Krator's message, mind): NetOracle... cool down. Please. Your comments (nominating as a reaction, "
We're going to sack it"..) give the impression of acting out of personal indignation. The train wreck at Ugly Hill was far from usual, the worst one I've seen in this field. Your assumptions - the WCCA are for self-promotion, meatpuppetry is to be expected - are broad, severe and, well, wrong.
Sid has a point, too. It's an odd one, but not long ago I e-mailed an author and he responded with additional data, sources and proofs that turned an AfD from 2-3 to 6-0. -- Kizor 21:00, 10 February 2007 (UTC) - Sid, Kizor, that was my point, that you for clarifying it - last time the noob was up for AFD, it was my communication with the author that allowed me to enhance the article with proper refrerences and information. This time round, the best reference to the work is unavailable. Timmccloud 01:46, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete. No substantial coverage by reliable sources as required by WP:WEB etc., only by websites of varying levels of ephemerality. The only reliable source cited, the Yahoo News story, mentions the subject only tangentially. Sandstein 11:51, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete no sign of multiple, non-trivial, independent reliable sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Started by a single purpose account, like most webcomic articles, it's a depository for character bios and trivia which is not even available on the site itself. Sources for some claims in the article, such as the comic being 'well-known' amongst MMORPG players, probably don't exist.-- Nydas (Talk) 12:59, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete per nom and per Nydas. Inkpaduta 15:23, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Strong Keep per Balancer and Topazg. I also agree with Kizor. -- Krator 15:26, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete Fancruft. Wile E. Heresiarch 17:31, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- note re [WP:WEB] notability is asserted - "Notability on Wikipedia for Web-specific content[3] is based on the following criterion"
- 1 The content itself has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the site itself. MMPORPG.COM, WorldofWarcraft.com Timmccloud 17:39, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- 2 The content is distributed via a medium which is both well known and independent of the creators, either through an online newspaper or magazine, an online publisher, or an online broadcaster. MMORPG.COM
Timmccloud 17:39, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Please cite instances where staff editors (not people with a forum/commentary account) make a significant mention of the subject. My concern is that these sources do not establish the notability of the subject, and are little more than one of many tangential mentions of sites which may fall under the category of "interesting, and worth a click" (but only to a specific subculture) but not notable. Furthermore, the mentions I saw earlier gave no indication of authorship, and thus, carried no weight associated with the entity responsible for publication.
NetOracle 18:35, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- "Please cite instances where staff editors (not people with a forum/commentary account) make a significant mention of the subject."
- Answer:
- On mmorpg.com, the section where The noob is mentioned, is not one where people with forum/commentary accounts can make additions to.
- On WorldofWarcrat.com, The noob was featured in a news item, which is, again, a section of the site that needs more than a forum/commentary account.
- -- Krator 21:49, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Please cite instances where staff editors (not people with a forum/commentary account) make a significant mention of the subject. My concern is that these sources do not establish the notability of the subject, and are little more than one of many tangential mentions of sites which may fall under the category of "interesting, and worth a click" (but only to a specific subculture) but not notable. Furthermore, the mentions I saw earlier gave no indication of authorship, and thus, carried no weight associated with the entity responsible for publication.
NetOracle 18:35, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Note: The noob is mentioned quite a lot in sections of notable and reliable websites (Gamespot, Ign, WoW, etc) where just a forum or commentary account is needed to add content. However, I agree with you that these shouldn't be used to support any claims of notability for The noob. They do, however, support the claims that The noob is reknown throughout the MMO community.
Comment: I might also add that there was a previous AfD for this article, which resulted in a discussion not unlike the one observed here right now. Note that the article has significantly improved since then, and now includes a lot more encyclopaedic content (i.e: about the satire of MMORPG culture in the comic) in relation to the amount of 'descriptive' content. As the article has only improved, and so has the number of references and reviews included therein, I question whether this debate will reach a different conclusion than the last one. That being said, I'd like to propose WP:SNOW, because the conclusion of no consensus seems imminent. -- Krator 22:09, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Strong Keep Definitely notable, and liked by many.BlackMateria 22:23, 10 February 2007 (UTC) BlackMateria ( talk · contribs) is a confirmed illegitimate sockpuppet of Wizardbrad ( talk · contribs) (who has already commented in this AfD), and as a result BlackMateria is blocked indefinitely. Please see Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Wizardbrad for more information. Krator 00:30, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Strong Keep - As Timmccloud and others have amply demonstrated, the argument for deleting The noob is incredibly weak. Almost to where it is laughable, really. I'm incredulous that the article is here again. The vendetta against webcomics continues, it would seem. – Xoid 22:42, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Strong Keep - This article deletion seems complete vendictful and mean. Its just shocking to me why someone would want to step on and destroy the hard works and passions of others. So what if our comics are enjoyed by a select few? We are a community.FGreen1989 22:51, 10 February 2007 (UTC) FGreen1989 ( talk · contribs) is a confirmed illegitimate sockpuppet of Wizardbrad ( talk · contribs) (who has already commented in this AfD), and as a result FGreen1989 is blocked indefinitely. Please see Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Wizardbrad for more information. Krator 00:30, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Keep because calling something "fancruft" is just a way of being hateful and disparaging something. Somebody cared enough to put work into it, therefore we should keep it. This page hurts nobody else. I don't see why we have to crush the work of some because of elitists hiding behind a shield of "profesionnalism" or "encyclopedic standards". Webcomics are about fun and entertainment, but they still are notable. Just because they aren't all run for huge corporate profit and aren't stuffy like 18th century British Literature doesn't mean that talking about them is unprofesional.CSMASTER84 22:58, 10 February 2007 (UTC) CSMASTER84 ( talk · contribs) is a confirmed illegitimate sockpuppet of Wizardbrad ( talk · contribs) (who has already commented in this AfD), and as a result CSMASTER84 is blocked indefinitely. Please see Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Wizardbrad for more information. Krator 00:30, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Keep I think this is worthy of an article even right now. Let it stay and we'll improve it. There is nothing wrong with the subject, it just isn't as complete as it should be. Thats no reason to stomp it out.Ccfr88 23:20, 10 February 2007 (UTC) Ccfr88 ( talk · contribs) is a confirmed illegitimate sockpuppet of Wizardbrad ( talk · contribs) (who has already commented in this AfD), and as a result Ccfr88 is blocked indefinitely. Please see Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Wizardbrad for more information. Krator 00:30, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Comment: Tagged three votes above with Spa because the only edit made by these accounts is on this page. I hate to see meatpuppets here, and I didn't ask for them, even if they support my point(s). It doesn't matter though, because of WP:NOT. I encourage the nominator to take my suggestion of using WP:SNOW here into account, in order to get back to editing instead of debating. -- Krator 23:10, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Comment: Confirmed to be sockpuppets, and votes deleted and tagged as such. I noticed
Kizor (
talk ·
contribs) and
Xoid (
talk ·
contribs) edited this page concerning these sockpuppets while I was doing so too, but I think keeping the text is to be preferred, because I fear that there'll be some more debate on sock and meatpuppets in this AfD. --
Krator 00:32, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks be to you. -- Kizor 00:38, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks from me too - sockpuppets pollute the dialog. -- Timmccloud 01:37, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks from me too. Eliminating sockpuppets which were supporting your side's opinion was a stand up thing to do. I did, however, notice this edit in the history: [3] Can someone with access check to see if Topazg is operating any sockpuppets, considering that a sockpuppet tried to whitewash some facts concerning his history here?
- Deletet: Lacks the multiple non-trivial independent sources necessary for verifiable, NPOV encyclopedia writing. My library searches have turned up no reputable sources. -- Dragonfiend 01:54, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep per User:Timmccloud, User:Kizor, and User:Balancer. Although I am not a fan of comics (print or online), I think the notability of the comic has been demonstrated (recongition by notable websites). Another factor to consider is the possibly inappropriate nature of the nomination, when {{ unreferenced}} or {{ notability}} may have sufficed. Black Falcon 02:08, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete, with a reminder to everyone to have a quick look at WP:ILIKEIT (do we need a WP:SOMEONENOTABLELIKESIT for arguments to avoid too?). Unless reliable sources have covered this, which I see no evidence of, it's not notable. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 02:47, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- And what pray tell is "relaible" by your definition? A major MMORPG software developent company like Blizzard covers it on the flagship games website home page, and it doesn't meet your "reliable" criteria? The largest webcomic award - WCCA - nominates it for an award and that's not "reliable"? Timmccloud 03:37, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Blizzard? There's a link to mmorpg.com, which is also the source cited for that assertion, but I followed the link. Nothing on that page supports that assertion whatsoever, it's just the site's homepage. As to WCCA, no, Notability is not popularity, nor did the site even win, it just received an honorable mention. I suppose the award site is reliable as to who won an award, but certainly, that's not enough source material for a comprehensive article-the award site only mentions their name once! Coverage must also be non-trivial, certainly a name-drop is as trivial as it gets! Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 03:48, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, Blizzard, World of Warcraft, worldofwarcraft.com. Your lack of knowledge in the area of MMORPG games dilutes your opinions on notablity - within the gaming communitiy this comic is very notable. And that gaming community is larger than the wikipedia community in size, so notability is herby asserted for "a noticeable effect on culture". Granted that it's not YOUR culture is obvious, but members of the gaming culture who are in this thread assert notabily, and it should be respected. Timmccloud 14:37, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep per Niffweed17, Destroyer of Chickens and others. Mathmo Talk 05:37, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep saying this comic is not widely recognized is ignorant. There is a huge fanbase. People like it. It is notable. Period. 06:34, 11 February 2007 (UTC) Gozerthegreat 06:38, 11 February 2007 (UTC)— Gozerthegreat ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Uh, I just saw a thread about this. I have to say I am really quite shocked. This is one of the biggest comic strips out there. Its everywhere. And on every important forum and weblog directory too. Deleting this would be illegal censorship.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Doomtrooper6 Doomtrooper6 ( talk · contribs) is a confirmed illegitimate sockpuppet of Wizardbrad ( talk · contribs) (who has already commented in this AfD), and as a result Doomtrooper6 is blocked indefinitely. Please see Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Wizardbrad for more information. User:Krator ( t c) 13:31, 12 February 2007 (UTC)- Keep this article. I don't see what purpose it serves to delete it. It isn't like Wikipedia is going to run out of memory. Zeruzero 08:20, 11 February 2007 (UTC)— Zeruzero ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Keep per the fact that many other Webcomics are listed. It seems like a well-written article. Usually short stub-type nonsensical articles get tagged for deletion. If this is deleted, maybe wikibooks will accept it, if they accept comics. BuickCenturyDriver 08:57, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep Timmccloud said basically everything I want to say. FWIW, this seems to be just wasting time and creating tension. The Nazis in the anti-webcomic camp need to learn some tolerance. Dorikonu 09:25, 11 February 2007 (UTC)— Dorikonu ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Ohforf'sake. --
Kizor 09:43, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- huh? BuickCenturyDriver 11:00, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Weak delete Doesn't seem to meet notability guidelines, and I've always wanted to be an illegal censoring anti-webcomic Nazi!
One Night In Hackney 09:48, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- The frustrating thing about notibilty is that people will base it on whether or not the subject familiar to them or their peers as opposed to a whether or not it belongs on wikipedia and the community accepting it. BuickCenturyDriver 11:00, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Comment I'm basing my vote on whether The noob meets WP:WEB. Has it been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the site itself? In my opinion, no. The coverage it has isn't from reliable sources, or it's trivial. Take the World of Warcraft "review", it doesn't review the site at all. The ubersite "review" is on a site where submissions seem to be open to all and sundry. The article states The Noob has been invited (article's emphasis not mine) to post on MMPORG, but that isn't verified by the reference. In my opinion it's a long way short of WP:WEB. One Night In Hackney 11:58, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- That teaches you a lesson about consensus. If you want to call them votes, just count the number of users. But these are comments and they are counted based on experiance. New user comments are discounted (because accounts are free on WP) but account with experiance and especially sysops and admins usually have more impact. The legitimacy usually depends on experiance and reputation.
BuickCenturyDriver 13:32, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Comment Actually, I normally use the term !vote but I neglected to include an exclamation mark on this occasion. I regard your condescending tone as inappropriate, and I suggest you return to debating the matter at hand. One Night In Hackney 13:40, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Notability is asserted - The january 2007 issue of the Norwegian Print magazine PEGASUS (ISSN 1890-0704) has started publishing the noob - on page 4 of the following link Pegasus January 2007. This meets notablity per "and are cited by established publications". I have included this reference in the article as well. Timmccloud 15:13, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. This is "notable", and stuff. Nothing I see that's wrong with it. -- Chris is me (u/c/t) 19:25, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Keep in print is in print, and that makes this "notable". This isn't some comic that some kid drew in art class one day. This is a real publication.Mikemasterful 20:45, 11 February 2007 (UTC) Mikemasterful ( talk · contribs) is a confirmed illegitimate sockpuppet of Dorikonu ( talk · contribs) (who has already commented in this AfD), and as a result Mikemasterful is blocked indefinitely. Please see Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Wizardbrad for more information. User:Krator ( t c) 13:31, 12 February 2007 (UTC)Keep subject is certainly notable.Frobber6 21:08, 11 February 2007 (UTC) Frobber6 ( talk · contribs) is a confirmed illegitimate sockpuppet of Dorikonu ( talk · contribs) (who has already commented in this AfD), and as a result Frobber6 is blocked indefinitely. Please see Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Wizardbrad for more information. User:Krator ( t c) 13:31, 12 February 2007 (UTC)- Strong keep per Timmccloud, Kizor, and Balancer. It is clearly referenced by notable sources. JackSparrow Ninja 21:10, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Comment The puppetry here is out of hand, and this has become the Ugly Hill AfD all over again. I'm going to get it cleaned up, and then we can proceed. NetOracle 22:24, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep This comic is generally well known, it has been referanced on major sites (web comic awards, Blizzard main page, various gaming sites), and as shown above even published. My own initial exposure to it came from ingame references from other players and images from it being used as forum avatars/linked inside posts, on the World of Warcraft forums. Which says something about it having a following in the gaming community. There's probably 5-10 or so other webcomics of similar notability that i can think of, and i don't think cutting off most of the webcomic content on wikipedia helps anyone who actually has any interest in the subject. -- Helixdq 02:32, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- I contest (and removed) the {{spa}} that was given to this user. As Special:Contributions/Helixdq shows, Helixdq has made several edits outside this topic (even to articles not connected to this topic at all), and the account has been active for much longer than this AfD. To keep it civil in here, I think it is paramount that a clear distinction is made between those who create an account just to !vote here (vote stacking/meat puppets) and 'normal' !votes. I quote from WP:SPA: "Please note that any other use of this tag is highly discouraged as it can be interpreted as a personal attack that may lead to action being taken against you."
- -- User:Krator ( t c) 13:51, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete I have not seen adequate evidence provided that this webcomic has met any of the guidelines described within WP:WEB. There are some sources, but not a substantial ammount sufficient for covering the requirement of multiple non-trivial published works. The awards and recognition have been limited to non-notable organizations and blogs. Leebo 86 13:49, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep Notability is established, and this is routinely mentioned on sites related to the MMORPG culture. Also, calling something a subculture with derisive implications (as in that makes them non-notavble) is silly. Millions of users is beyond notable. And this has been on the front page of the "main" mmorp portal, mmorpg.com, and World of warcraft.com - Denny 17:10, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. Not all of the references meet my personal standards for reliability, but there is sufficient sourcing of a reliable nature to suggest that this comic is in fact notable. (jarbarf) 19:45, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. Holy crap, this is the longest deletion discussion I've ever seen. As it stands now, the article is not deletable. YechielMan 22:48, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete though I can see that won't happen. If Wikipedia does not want to be overwhelmed by internet ephemera it must draw a line in the sand. An official policy is definitely needed. Rkevins 08:41, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete per others above and because of the massive amount of sockpuppetry in this AFD. SakotGrimshine 10:53, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Comment The sockpuppetry has been well identified in order to ignore it's contribution to the discussion. Deleting the article out of spite because some people make ill advised attempts to save it is NOT a reason to ignore the validity of the other commentary. It makes it more difficult to mediate, yes, and I personally wish they hadn't done so, but there are serious reasons to keep this article, and serious discussions between the meat puppetry. Timmccloud 12:57, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- While I certainly don't agree with you on the notability of the subject, I do have to agree with your stance on the sockpuppetry. The presence of puppets alone should not sway a person to disagree with the viewpoint held by the puppets out of spite. If this deletion goes forward, it should be on the merits of the discussion held, and not the interference in the discussion by those who don't wish to play by the rules. All that can be said of the puppetry is that a large fan community exists, many of whom have no problems in introducing cruft into articles, or puppets into discussion NetOracle 04:54, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep The comic (and by extention the article) seems to have quite a bit of support and in any case the articles quite well written-- Bisected8 12:43, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete Qualiy of comic: irrelevant. Author on vacation: irrelevant. Lots of people like it: irrelevant. Lots of noise on blogs: irrelevant. No evidence of multiple non-trivial coverage in reliable, independent secondary sources: relevant per policy and guideline, not yet rebutted. Please provide sources. Guy ( Help!) 16:07, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep, three published books on it sounds notable enough for me. >Radiant< 16:31, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete has not had "...a noticeable effect on culture, society, and media, and are cited by established publications. " -
Francis Tyers
· 16:38, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Comment. Is it worth noting that NetOracle just made those criteria up himself, and furthermore has shown himself to be operating under his own idea of what Wikipedia should be by saying that we should restrict ourselves to those subjects that will "stand the test of time"? -- Kizor 08:31, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- Comment: Where you say
***
During a time when Wikipedia is struggling for acceptance as a solid and reliable reference, the expansion of fancruft and non-notable material only dilutes the reputation of the encyclopedia as a whole. NetOracle 18:15, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
***
I would like to disagree. What calls the reputation of wikipedia into question is the fact that a small minority keep on calling wikipedia's objectivity into question by deleting what they have subjectively determined to be subjective content. The objectivity of wikipedia is of more value to the site's reputation than anything else. If wikipedia is not objective, then how can it be trusted at all? Just because it contains vast amounts of what could be considered trivial data (please note that the articles regarding Knuckles the Echidna and Hitmonchan are longer than the article on European History), that does not mean that this data is not a valid reference for those who seek it. Furthermore, due to the open nature of a wiki they are going to struggle for a long time to come before they are regarded as "solid and reliable". Right now, objectivity is all that wikipedia has, and it is being fast eroded by the same pomposity displayed in the passage I have quoted.
TNUK 00:52, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- Why do you classify the articles as "objective", yet deletion decisions "subjective"? I agree with you that objectivity is essential, and that is why I launched this deletion process to begin with. Writing a long, in-depth article about a subject because you like it conflicts with established principles of verifiability, reliable sources, and encyclopedic standards. The articles you mentioned are far too long for an objective encyclopedia not associated with a specific form of pop culture, and probably shouldn't exist. Writing a long and detailed article for a non-notable subject only gives it a false sense of notability to those not familiar with it. Wikipedia needs to be objective, and part of this involves fans of a particular entertainment medium or specific work controlling the impulse to bypass encyclopedic standards and source integrity simply because the subject in question made an impact on their life. WP:BAND frequently sacks articles profiling small, non-notable bands. The people writing these articles (generally the members themselves, or their close friends) do so in good faith, but without the objectivity of a neutral observer. There are thousands of non-notable bands, just as there are thousands of non-notable webcomics, and neither belong on Wikipedia. Inclusion in Wikipedia can give a reader a false sense of notability, and readers of Wikipedia should not be deceived as to notability because several people like it.
- Conversely, holding a distaste for something is not a valid reason to delete or prune it. At this point, let us make an important semantical distinction: not liking something is not the same as disliking something. Of particular concern are some of the comments that I have received indicating that someone who does not like webcomics has no business in pruning them down or deleting them. This notion is misguided; if only people who like webcomics participate in those articles, then they will fill up with biased fancruft. How can an article be objective if only one viewpoint is considered? The only people who should not participate in webcomic-related discussions are those who have vendettas against webcomics. I don't have a vendetta against webcomics; I simply don't find them humorous, and I don't associate with the typical nerd/gamer stereotypes portrayed in them. If I were to go around nominating things which I dislike for not being entertaining at all, I would have started with Speed 2, as pretty much everyone agrees that it sucks. If I were going to troll the genre, I would have started with a notable webcomic such as Penny Arcade.
- The reason this discussion seems excessively long is because a significant amount of
biased editing by fans has transpired in the past, and the community as a whole needs to develop standards for webcomic inclusion. This debate has already been had with other fancruft-prone subjects, such as
Star Wars and
Star Trek, and the articles in those genre have been evaluated for notability, and much of the cruft transwikied to places which exist specifically for non-objective writing. When we look at articles, we must do so from a
neutral point of view. If multiple, non-trivial published sources document a subject, then it meets inclusion criteria, and should be documented in an objective way that does not falsely misrepresent the notability of the subject to multiple, disinterested third parties. I have a concern that the cruft found in many of the webcomic articles is both not useful and misrepresentative to those reading Wikipedia as an objective encyclopedia. I could have just as easily gone after other instances of cruft; the massive number of articles on non-notable
Idol contestants is ridiculous too, and had I encountered it before I did similarly problematic articles on webcomics, I'd be off trying to apply encyclopedic standards to it, instead of here.
NetOracle 04:33, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- Your argument is specious. "There's cruft in there, so we should delete the entire article". That reasoning warrants a {{
cleanup}}, not an {{
afd}}. As we've already established this webcomic is notable, so don't try pulling that one. –
Xoid 06:07, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- The presence of cruft in an otherwise notable article is a symptom of the same ILIKEIT editing which has created non-notable articles to begin with. Thus, non-notable webcomics do far more harm than fancruft-filled articles like the Final Fantasy series. An article such as Sinfest would be much more deserving of a cruft cleanup tag than an AfD tag. Completely unencyclopedic articles are a much greater concern than articles with a bit of cruft; i.e., cruft in itself is less misrepresentative to a reader than the existence of an article which probably shouldn't be around in the first place. AfD is not a substitute for cruft cleanup, and we haven't established that this webcomic is notable, given that this AfD is still open. NetOracle 06:14, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- Your argument is specious. "There's cruft in there, so we should delete the entire article". That reasoning warrants a {{
cleanup}}, not an {{
afd}}. As we've already established this webcomic is notable, so don't try pulling that one. –
Xoid 06:07, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. Any deletion proceeding where a claim of "cruft" is the primary motivation for deletion should not happen. Cruft forever! Rogue 9 02:46, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- Comment I don't want to seem like I'm questioning each keep !vote, but if you could cite some policy or guideline for your reasoning, it would be appreciated. Leebo 86 03:06, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- Comment: WP:CRUFT itself states that cruft cannot be the primary reason for deletion. However, an article's cruftiness can be a determining factor when other valid reasons for deletion are met. ( Justyn 21:31, 14 February 2007 (UTC))
- Comment Justyn beat me to it. Yelling "cruft" isn't a reason to delete anything, and the reasoning behind the nomination boils down to "I think this is cruft." Given that "cruft" is an entirely subjective measure (one could argue that articles on high schools, for instance, are cruft, just to give one example), one person thinking an article constitutes cruft is not a reason for deletion. Rogue 9 07:37, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
- Rather weak keep The print references are a bit thin (the magazine listed appears to be a new one, though I have very little clue about Norwegian) an self-published books don't count. That said, they may weakly satisfy the notability. The article needs some old chainsaw love though. Perhaps AfD it again a little bit later? -- wwwwolf ( barks/ growls) 09:39, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep: The the article itself sites sources and asserts its notibility, it has more then two real reliable sources, it meets the relevent criteria for inclusion. ( Justyn 21:31, 14 February 2007 (UTC))
In response to NetOracle: You ask why do I classify the articles as "objective", yet deletion decisions "subjective"? The answer is simple. Wikipedia uses set criteria to assess objectivity in articles - criteria which the article under discussion certainly meet. Deletion (and even the motion to delete the article itself) is therefore subjective, by the standards of wikipedia. This blatant display of double standards is the reason that I felt compeeled to add my two pennorth', and the reason why I am very close to giving up on ever being able to treat wikipedia as being an objective, credible source.
You may or may not be aware of my meaning in my initial response to you. I am unsure, because you say things like "The articles you mentioned are far too long for an objective encyclopedia not associated with a specific form of pop culture, and probably shouldn't exist." as though this adds weight to your query regarding objectivity. In actual fact, you have merely repeated my setiments quite succinctly. You go on to say that you are trying to "apply encyclopedic standards to articles" such as this one. What I think you mean is that you are deleting articles entirely subjectively. Case in point: this article meets the required standards, and therefore in order to apply encyclopedic standards, one merely needs to clean up the style (not the content) of the article so that it may be brought into line. You say that "the community as a whole needs to develop standards for webcomic inclusion", yet instead of this, you are acting in an highly subjective manner by removing content before such standards have even been established.
You refer to "cruft". If "cruft" is the problem, then why not remove "cruft" from the article and ensure that it properly conforms to the required standard, then protect it. Surely a basic article giving objective and encyclopedically delivered facts is far better than a gap in the supposedly omniscient databank that many editors seem to regard wikipedia as?
I can only hope that the madness does not spread, or next any article that mentions God (or references another which mentions God) will be deleted for not having an ojective enough worldview, and being about entirely subjective worldviews (which is of course an entirely subjective opinion as God's existance can not at this point be proved or disproved, and any attempt to do either on the site would be frowned upon as "original thinking". If this happens, then who knows where it will end?
The pomposity and hypocrisy of those who would seek to control and/or limit the flow of information across the internet never ceases to astound me. Just as I think I have seen the worst example possible, another crops up that is ten times as bad (and often this is the case when one bad yet impassioned idea is raised in support of a previous and equally execrable idea).
TNUK 23:13, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 10:57, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Latino Muslims
- Delete This article is a complete waste of time.
I think the first thing we have to ask ourselves is whether Wikipedia is merely an indescriminate collection of information. I have no idea how "true" this information is, especially given the dubious sources (getting to that in a bit), but frankly what purpose does this information serve? It informs us that there are latino-muslims.
And that's it.
Huzzah! They exist! Couldn't we simply say that in one line in the latino thread when discussing demographics? "there are also a growing number of latino-muslims." Why is this any more "separate-entry worthy" than say, latino-sikhs? What information is being presented to us that makes latin-muslims noteworthy? Do they have a noticeably different culture, something syncretic perhaps? Have they accomplished anything recently? Have they faced some form of persecution perhaps?
Clearly from the information in this article the answers are no, no, no and no - Which at first I thought might mean there is just a development issue with this thread. But then I looked up latino-muslims online and found only the following: articles acknowledging their existance and lots of articles by muslim missionary groups arguing "You can be a latino and a muslim too!" and that's pretty much it.
The article really is utilizing the most information available, it's simply not anything worth noting! At least in this level of detail.
But let's take a look at the details. The glorious cultural contributions of latino muslims are... LADO, a defunct islamic missionary group, and "Alianza Islámica" which actually IS worth noting because of its civil rights impact in america (or so the article claims)!
Unfortunately Alianza Islámica is completely original research with ZERO sources and furthermore it is plaguerized directly from " http://www.hispanicmuslims.com/articles/ranksincreasing.html" which is yet another islamic missionary organization directly targeting latinos.
And there's the rub, this is all religious advocacy... all of the information in here is from islamic missionary organizations, utilized to push their latino agenda forward.
This links to nothing but unsourced plageurized articles, and the latino navbar, the information could easily be reported (without advertising islamic missionary groups) simply by adding a line about a growing number of muslims to the relevant demographics section of the latino thread. Consequently this article is not worthy of a separate thread, breaks the soapbox rule, and we lose nothing by axing it. -- Skyhawk4584 14:17, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. This article is a stub on an interesting topic. -- JuanMuslim 1m 04:15, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Weak Delete - I agree with the nom that the article mostly states the obvious, and provides too little info to merit a separate article. The Islamic missionary organisations may be notable (depending on their number of converts, coverage in external sources etc.) but no evidence is provided for this. Delete unless expanded by end of AfD. Walton monarchist89 17:10, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Undecided. This article is linked from Template:Latinos in the United States, along with Hispanics and religion (currently a redlink), Christian Latinos, and Latino Jews. Christian Latinos and Latino Jews are currently not much better written than Latino Muslims. All of these are potentially worthy of being quality articles, but for now they would need a lot of work to get up to that standard. -- Metropolitan90 18:08, 10 February 2007 (UTC)- Keep I consider a shame. However, see [44]. Upper estimates are 70,000-200,000 Hispanic Muslims. However, this is in the U.S. as far as I know. Middle Eastern sheikhs and clerics may have funnelled the oil money to build mosques.-- Patchouli 18:20, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Metropolitan, if you will notice there are actual cultural contributions to the latino identity that are associated with the jewish latino and catholic latino articles. The most obvious example being the influence of the Catholic Church in the latino identity. What impact have muslim latinos had on the latino identity? Anything more noteworthy than sikh-latinos? Why not articles for these insignificant sub identities as well? They offer nothing to the main article describing the latino ethnicity, just like this muslim-latino article, yet they do not have their own individual pages. Also, how can one ignore the obvious influence of islamic missionary groups, they are directly quoted and even advertised in the thread. Who cares if there are "dawah organizations," that's not information worth reporting.
On what basis do you say there is potential for a quality article here? It's simply reporting the existance of a subdemongraphic that have made absolutely no impact on the latino identity. They are a part of the identity, shearly because they exist - in which case they belong as a single line descriptor in the main article.
- Patchouli, Your vote shouldn't be controlled by whether you "like" such developments or what is fueling them clearly there are latino muslims this fact is not disputed nor do I believe it should go away, but you should be asking if this worth a full page thread, whether this is merely advertising islamic proselytism (numerous citations of islamic "dawa" organizations suggests this is so), and whether the information here presented is more appropriately described in a simple line or two on the main page.-- 67.163.191.97 22:28, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Keep The notability of Latino Muslims is dependent on the term Latino. The term is often misunderstood to mean Latin American and thus exclude people from Spain. I can elaborate upon request. This article can easily be expanded to become a good article. Someone asked on this AfD: "What impact have muslim latinos had on the latino identity?" This question should be answered in the article. Latino Muslims have impacted Latino architecture in a profound way. Please see Alhambra and Mezquita. Moreover, Islam has had an impact on Latino culture. An example of this is the impact it has had on the Spanish language. For example, the word Ojalá is derived from Arabic. To quote the BBC, "The etymology is quite interesting as it comes from the Arabic law šá lláh, meaning 'If Allah wishes'." Please see [45]. It is also important to recognize the impact of Islam in Spain, after all "Islam is the second largest religion in Spain". Agha Nader 00:26, 11 February 2007 (UTC)Agha Nader
- Your answer directly contradicts the term "Latino" which as defined by the article and minority groups is: "Latino (and the form Latina for females), as used in American English, refers to a United States national of Latin American origin. [1] It is borrowed from Spanish latino, shortened from latinoamericano. [2]" That is verbatim from the article. If you don't like this term, take it up with the main article, this is not the place to introduce your reformulation of the word.
- It is a US term for people from Latin America. Furthermore latino identity is not exclusive to any "home country" especially not Spain, for which the original term "hispanic" was thrown out because it was exclusive of south american countries that had no connection to Spain (ie Brazil, which was a portuguese colony).
- Alhambra, the Mezquita et cetera are valuable pieces of Spanish culture, to which Islam has contributed. Naturally this extension through the colony homeland (Spain) played an impact on the latino identity; however, that is already communicated by the fact the latino article acknowledges Spanish culture has played a heavy role in the latino identity - links from the spanish culture designations describe Islamic influence.
- Ergo there is no need to reiterate the obvious indirect impact, especially since it is "once removed." This thread is about "Latinos," which are a unique new-world specific syncretic culture in the Americas, incorporating Spanish, Portuguese, African, Carribean and native American culture to form this separate ethnicity. The question is, where have these muslim latinos (who as you and your articles acknowledge are new to Islam) made any contribution to the latino identity which is worth noting? We're not talking about inherited second hand influences from Old World Spain, but actual identifiable contributions of latino (per the definition)-muslims, here in the New World.
- There are ZERO. This article demonstrates absolutely no reason for why this subset of people is worth identifying as a separate article when we can just as easily incorporate the useful sources (if there are any) into a one line demographic report "there are a growing number of latino muslims." Rather than creating this elaborate article dedicated to informing us of all the recent trends in Islamic missionary groups.
- This is wikipedia, not wikidawah, religious groups need to backoff with the advertisement. -- - Skyhawk 04:13, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete. I am changing to a delete recommendation but not for the reasons cited by Skyhawk. The delete is based on the fact that of the four sentences of prose in this article, three are just statements of the obvious, devoid of content: "Latino Muslims are Latinos whose religion is Islam. Latino Muslims are also known as Hispanic Muslims. Latino Muslims live in various cities within the United States." If the article is improved before the AfD period is up, I may change my recommendation. -- Metropolitan90 18:33, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- According to the article: "Latino Muslims are Latinos whose religion is Islam. Latino Muslims are also known as Hispanic Muslims." Hispanic people include Spaniards. Agha Nader 22:15, 11 February 2007 (UTC)Agha Nader
- Please look at this map
As you can see, Spaniards are, indeed, Hispanic. I can see why you would be confused. After researching the term Latino, I found out there are many misconceptions about the term. Thus, I propose adding a few sentences clarifying the term Latino. The article already states that Latino Muslims are also known as Hispanic Muslims. Do you doubt that Spaniards are Hispanic?
Agha Nader 03:14, 12 February 2007 (UTC)Agha Nader
- Latino is New World, Spanish is Old World, Moorish is Ancient World
- Stop trying to pull Europeans into the picture, if you are European (as in Spanish), especially European 800 years before the New World was even discovered you are not latino. As the article clearly says the term "latino" is short for "latinoamericana," it is a new world designation, and an ethnicity according to the US census. If you come from Spain you are European, different ethnic designation - for good reason, as mentioned before Latino culture is unique to the New World, it is a new syncretic ethnicity, not an old world monolithic culture like Spanish culture. Hispanic and Spanish are mutually exclusive terms, to quote the wikipedia Hispanic entry "The term "Spanish" to denote a person from or of descent from a Latin American country is incorrect, as "Spanish" means a person who is from Spain."
- We already have an article detailing the accomplishments of the people who build Al Hambra and the Cathedral of Cordoba, and you can see that article by typing "Moor" into the search button to your left. They existed about 1300 to 600 years ago, in Europe, and never saw the New World. The present article we are discussing is an irrelevant subset of people within the much larger and far more significant syncretic New World Latino ethnicity. The people this article discusses have accomplished nothing more than merely existing which is not worth reporting - certainly not worth reporting as a full separate article. Wikipedia is simply not a listing of everything that exists in the world.
- You, everyone else and google have not produced any serious contribution to the Latino identity that latino-muslims have brought to the picture (and by serious contributions I do not mean "they set up organizations to proselytize Islam to muslims"). This article serves no other purpose than to further the agenda of "wikidawah." There is no information here, as metropolitan correctly noted out it says the same sentence four times - I suggest we just say it once, as a small insignificant rider to a demographics section "there are a growing number of latino muslims."
- Nor will there be any information here, every time it is pointed out that this thread is pointless those whose pet issue this is come running along to save it from the clutches of deletion by whining about how they have mountains of information and there is great potential and they will personally see to it that the article is expanded. And each time everybody just goes along with in and one week later all we have added one more line reiterating that there are muslim latinos. I'm curious what it will be this time if the AFD fails "Muslim Latino as mentioned before are Latinos who are Muslims, however it could be said with equal accuracy that they are Muslims who are Latino." -- - Skyhawk 01:47, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Agha Khan,
-from the wikipedia entry LatinoLatino (and the form Latina for females), as used in American English, refers to a United States national of Latin American origin. It is borrowed from Spanish latino, shortened from latinoamericano.
The term "Latino" refers to any person having Latin American background and is often taken to be a synonym with "Hispanic". However, while official use of the term Hispanic has its origins in the Census Bureau in the 1970s, activist groups such as MEChA, Crusade for Justice, Brown Berets, Black Berets, and the Young Lords often preferred the term Latino because they felt it is more inclusive of the broad range of peoples in Latin America.
The term "Latino" is typically understood by some to mean immigrants from Hispanophone countries in North, Central and South America and their U.S.-born descendants. It refers specifically to persons of Latin American origin.
'People from Spain self-categorize as latinos in the Spanish language, but in that case it means "Latin," rather than 'Latin American or 'US citizen or resident of Latin American origin' (a 'Latin American American', in other words), as the Spanish are one of the Latin peoples of Europe.
Clearly for your argument to be valid the entire definition of Latino in wikipedia needs to be changed. You're arguing something that is not being discussed here, the definition of "latino" used in this article is the group of people in the latino entry - which is exclusively New World. The Moors were not latinos.
Latinos origins are in "Latin America" - a place that did not exist at the time of the Moors. Ergo it is impossible to call Moors "Latinos."
Look at this map, it's the relevant one:
Just answer the question, what cultural significance are "latino muslims," what makes them worthy of their own separate entry aside from latino sikhs, latino-scientologists or latino-over the top football fans? Nothing. Furthermore what is the relevance of noting the existence "Latino Dawah Organizations?" This is just furthering the "wikidawah project." -- - Skyhawk 19:52, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Keep - Encyclopedia, interesting. Baka man 22:28, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete per Skyhawk. Do not confuse the scope of the title of this article with that of the Islam in Spain. Baristarim 00:58, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- The article states "Latino Muslims are also known as Hispanic Muslims." As you can see, Hispanics are included. And obviously Spaniards are Hispanic. There is further evidence of this. Please see [46]. This template is included in the article. The template clearly shows that Spanish Americans are Latino and are included in the template. Furthermore, Spaniards recognize themselves as Latino ("People from Spain self-categorize as Latinos in the Spanish language"). This is not to be confused with the term Latin American. Agha Nader 02:59, 13 February 2007 (UTC)Agha Nader
- Please note: The name of the article is not Latin American Muslims, it is Latino Muslims. Agha Nader 02:59, 13 February 2007 (UTC)Agha Nader
- The map user Skyhawk (a new user whose only experience is this AfD), has provided is of Latin America, and is thus irrelevant to our discussion. In contrast, the Hispanic American map is the one of issue. This is because the article states "Latino Muslims are also known as Hispanic Muslims." In fact, the article never uses the term Latin American Muslim. Agha Nader 02:59, 13 February 2007 (UTC)Agha Nader
"a new user whose only experience is this AfD" that's called an ad hom attack - it's a logical fallacy because it avoids the issue, something you've excelled at thusfar, and instead attacks the credibility of the person. The article doesn't say "latin american muslim" because it would be redundant, Latino = americans of latin american descent, not spaniards we have a fabulous word for people from spain "Spanish." You clearly have a problem with the wikipedia definition of latino, you said so in your first objection about how this is all just a small misunderstanding. Why don't you push your definition of latino in that thread? For the sake of consistency we must all accept the wikipedia definition of latino and debate the issue at hand - whether there is any point in identifying the existence of latino muslims.
Once again my question to you is what have latino muslims done of any consequence that requires a full dedicated thread?
User Bakasuprman, I agree it has an encyclopedic value - the question is this much? Is there any reason we can't include all the useful information in this thread (and advertising Muslim missionary groups is not "useful") in a one line acknowledgement that "there are a growing number of latino muslims" in a demographics section of the main latino article, describing the scope and bounds of the latino identity? As it stands the article says just that - four times. Several users have promised to upgrade the article every time its utility is challenged, and all have never followed up. There simply is nothing more to say than "they exist" and you don't need a full article for that.
I mean at least with the latinos and Christianity thread you can talk about the cultural significance of the Catholic Church in the latino identity, its impact on distinctly latin american cultural endeavors like santos in art, which synthesize native american idols and Catholic icon veneration - or any number of syncretic religions in Brazil that have popped up like condomble. That one makes obvious sense. And they are the achievements of Catholic latinos - not spanish latinos, or even more ludicrous moorish achievements, but rather the work of this distinctly new world group.
But latino muslims? What have they done that is worth noting other than forming a couple missionary orgs (LADO is defunct incidentally), and possibly formed an organization that had something to do with civil rights - except for the fact that tidbit of information is completely unsourced, the page it links to has zero sources at all and if you google it you find out it is plaguerized from the organization itself.
How many shades of shady would you say that is?
Supporters of this article have yet to show one iota of accomplishment or contribution to the latino identity, from latino-muslims and that is the crux of the issue - the difference between a one liner acknowledging they exist in the main article, or an entry with an indepth discussion on what their unique achievements are and why they are worth acknowledging. -- - Skyhawk 03:31, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
GASP I was wrong! This article does tell us something extremely valuable about the relevance of latino-muslims! They live in various cities in the United States!!
- Delete - No sources. Just using advocacy sites as references isn't enough. Please find an article by a WP:RS on the community of Latino Muslims and we have an article. - Merzbow 04:42, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete There are no reliable sources in this article, and this is just some POV garbage article used for propaganda. Honestly, some people will create an article on anything no matter how un-notable a topic it is. This clearly isn't a notable topic. The majority of people don't even know of the existance of Latino muslims, and they still number less than a million.-- Sefringle 04:59, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep per the precedent set by Christian Latinos and Latino Jews. ITAQALLAH 15:01, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete whats the point of such categorization? -- CltFn 12:44, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep per above. Some good demographics and topic is good to have some information about it. --- ALM 18:36, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Not to sound redundant but nobody is suggesting the demographic information disappear - rather it will be added to the main article as a one or two line statement instead of a full entry as a separate article. There is nothing artical worthy here, it doesn't meet the wikipedia requirements for notability and the discussion on muslim missionary groups is clear advocacy. Take these things away and you are confronted with the reality there is nothing being reported here except a link to an unsourced (yet still plaguerized) article and the same sentence restated four times. As already mentioned this doesn't meet the notability requirements ergo there is nothing else that can be said in this article - it is simply a waste of space at this time.--
- Skyhawk 02:25, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
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The result was delete all - the club (and the copy-and-paste at Clonlost), the tournament ( International Youth Cup) as well as the players. - Daniel.Bryant 08:14, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Nitelink Rovers
Non-notable football team, probably in fact entirely fictional. Google returns only two hits; both of which are to Wikipedia. I am not sure if this meets the criteria for speedy deletion, so I'm listing it here instead.
I would also suggest that the articles on the 'players' the article links to be deleted on the same grounds. Stevefarrell 21:57, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of football (soccer) related deletions. Scottmsg 22:09, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete all - nonsensical.
Archibald99
22:21, 10 February 2007 (UTC) - Delete all - just a load of bull. -- Mattythewhite 22:25, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete all - A hoax that even if it were true would not be notable. Scottmsg 22:59, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete all definitely a hoax. Please consider for deletion also International Youth Cup, David O'Sullivan-Kontoursis, and Clonlost, respectively the fake league, the fake manager and a duplicate of Nitelink Rovers. Please note how all these articles were created by the same user, Gizmo10. So I also propose to block him for vandalism, if possible. -- Angelo 01:11, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- do not wish to be offended by this but i feel i must defend myself. Nitelink Rovers is a football team affiliated with a youth club in Dublin Ireland. I am responsible for this youth club and run it along with other adults. The mentioned "coach" is another leader in the youth club who has qualifications from the FAI(football association of Ireland). We are an amateur youth club and the international youth club cup is what the group of teams refer to the tournament as. Our youth club is affiliated with the E.C.Y.D. and regnum Christi (see legionaires of Christ) who have a boarding school in Wicklow, Ireland known as Dublin Oak. The other teams are all teams of E.C.Y.D. Members from clubs in the country. The children in the youth club all use Wikipedia as a resource for their school work and asked that they could have themselves on the site. This article may not be of significant use to other members of the site but the children really enjoy being able to see themselves on the internet. As a user of Wikipedia for many years I am upset that other users are saying that i should be blocked as i have put nothing untruthful in any of the articles I have written. The only part of any article that could be deemed untrue is the inclusion of Eugene O'Connor and "Zippo" Nolan. These are two fathers who have done alot of work installing toilets and doing building work on the club and as a gesture of goodwill the children asked them to be included.
- I would like to hear from people regarding this issue as i feel it is highly unfair what is being said of myself and these articles.
- Gizmo10, aka. Aidan Dunne
- Then it isn't in the least bit notable enough for inclusion in Wikipedia. It's a youth club team. There are thousands of these throughout Ireland and the United Kingdom. I can think of ten in my own home town, which has a much smaller population than Dublin. Your youth club's football team is not notable. I'm sorry to break it to you, but it isn't. Please read WP:N and WP:NOT. There are also separate guidelines on what kinds of football teams are notable enough for inclusion on Wikipedia, but I forget where those are. This doesn't even nearly meet the criteria for notability. Sorry. -- Stevefarrell 15:04, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete all per nomination. Qwghlm 20:39, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete WP does not exist to give non-notable people a kick out of seeing themselves included. If the kids want to have an internet presence they should check out MySpace or something similar.....
ChrisTheDude 08:05, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- also Delete all the articles on the club's individual players, namely Shane Kearns, Aidan McCann, Odhran Mahar, Niall O'Cuilleanain, Peter Ryan Cosgrove, Luke Nolan, Morgan MacFhionnlaoich, Fionn Kelly, Seán O'Connor, Karl Rogers, Cormac Roche, Jason Cullen, Ryan Connolly, Richie Keely, David O'Sullivan-Kontoursis, Duane Dalton, Zippo Nolan and Eugene O'Connor....... ChrisTheDude 08:06, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Discus fish
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. - Daniel.Bryant 09:20, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Melbourne Revolution FC
- Melbourne Revolution FC ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD)
Non-notable minor football team. Articles linking from this page about players etc. should be deleted also.
Archibald99
23:59, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
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Archibald99
00:18, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. Scottmsg 02:42, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete. Social indoor soccer team in the Box Hill Indoor Soccer League in Melbourne. No claim to notability. Player articles should be deleted as well. May be case under A7 non-notable organisation. Capitalistroadster 03:32, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletions. -- Capitalistroadster 03:32, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete, in addition to being non-notable, it looks like most of the edits are by their "manager", Jonathan Menner. Lankiveil 04:05, 11 February 2007 (UTC).
- Delete -- nn. - Longhair\ talk 05:14, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- KEEPhello lads, this page shouldnt be deleted because it is set up so people can further learn more about us and who play for us i really dont see the need to delete it, you should maybe spend some time making your own or something before you see the need to go and ask someone elses to be deleted, is it hurting anyone? do you also want me to delete our myspace because were not important enough? all the stats are right all the facts are right, who really cares 19:02, 11 February 2007 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.107.48.211 ( talk • contribs)
- Comment The above purposes would be much better met by a webpage published by yourself rather than a page on an encyclopaedia. Orderinchaos78 08:51, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- KEEP The page is up to and it is providing correct details for anyone who needs to know about indoor football —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.239.223.209 ( talk) 12:32, 11 February 2007 (UTC).
- KEEP I dont feel it is necessary to delete this page as it is providing facts not fiction. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.214.14.160 ( talk • contribs) — 203.214.14.160 ( talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Delete Unless the anons here can show otherwise, this is an article about a non-notable sports team. NeoChaosX ( talk, walk) 08:34, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
KEEPi really dont see what the problem is with this :S —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.107.48.211 ( talk) 08:59, 11 February 2007 (UTC).- Delete not notable.-- cj | talk 10:12, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- DElete - division 3 indoor team says it all. - Peripitus (Talk) 10:24, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete unless some notability can be established. A less than year old mates team doesn't cut it. Nuttah68 10:26, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete Division 3 indoor soccer team? Not notable enough. -- Canley 11:43, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete Not even close to being notable enough for inclusion. Ignore the votes to 'keep' from sockpuppets of the page's creator. -- Stevefarrell 12:45, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- KEEP This club although small has had hundreds of adds from people all over the world on its myspace it is followed in england and scotland by a keen few fans, this wikipedia is so that these fans can look into further statistics and further analysis of the club , all stats and facts are 100% true, i see no reason to delete this page —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Johnnybhoy22 ( talk • contribs) 13:34, 11 February 2007 (UTC).
- Speedy delete Recreational team. Already had a db-template, but it was removed by the article starter. Julius Sahara 16:54, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. -- Edcolins 17:13, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination and WP:CORP. Qwghlm 20:42, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep you people need to get out more, and actually the speedy delete was not deleted by the page creator smart ass, the page was taken off the speedy delete list —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Johnnybhoy22 ( talk • contribs) 00:24, 12 February 2007 (UTC).
- KEEP the fact that this page is of importance both interstate and internationally gives it suitable grounds for being kept on, the idea of the site is to provide pages relevant to what people want and are interested in, and obviously this fits that criteria — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.164.134.249 ( talk • contribs) — 58.164.134.249 ( talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Delete as a non-notable team (along with the linked player articles). The various keep !voters offer no significant argument other than "this is true" and "I find it useful", which are not valid reasons to keep an article ChrisTheDude 08:11, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete - if individual players make it to a higher league, they could well become notable enough to have an article. This fails on the same grounds as local councillors not being notable enough to have articles (despite their state parliamentary counterparts having them). Orderinchaos78 08:42, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- The club has fans internationaly it maybe a small supporter base but atleast we have one we have fans in other states in australia aswell, doesnt this mean that we are not some social club? which we are not — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnnybhoy22 ( talk • contribs)
- Delete. That's nice, a myspace page for a reference. YechielMan 23:14, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
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The result was delete, the list is still unverifiable by non-trivial and independent coverage on the subject. The article reads like fan-cruft and is not substantiated with reliable sources. Perhaps it would do better to merge the substantiated content with the publisher's article, or a list of publications. Article will be recreated in userspace upon request. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 09:35, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
The noob
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This is yet another non-notable web comic, whose appeal seems very limited. The only places mentioning it seem to be blogs, forums, chat rooms, social sites, and other pages of little to no value or notability. Wikipedia is not a DMOZ-style directory, and we should only be listing notable web comics - i.e., those which have had a noticeable effect on culture, society, and media, and are cited by established publications. This comic doesn't seem to have had much of an influence at all. Including any and all buzz found on Web 2.0 sites only leads to fancruft. NetOracle 01:49, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- keep. as the article states, the webcomic has received some acclaim. As there is no real policy on what makes a webcomic notable, this article should be preserved. Niffweed17, Destroyer of Chickens 01:55, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not disputing that. My problem with this webcomic-cruft is that the acclaim and praise comes from a very small segment of the population, as posted on personal sites, blogs, forums, etc, rather than from notable published sources. There seems to be an endless number of aspiring artists and adherents to the "Internet media culture" who can do little more than
regurgitate
memes and engage in self-promotion. Where are we going to draw the line?
NetOracle 02:03, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Well, why invalidate the feedback of blogs? The very presence of positive feedback, even if only largely present among internet communities, should account for some notability. It might not under Wikipedia policy. but such a distinction is immaterial as there presently is no policy to govern the treatment of this medium.
Niffweed17, Destroyer of Chickens 02:21, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Blogs in general are not a reliable or noteworthy source. There are exceptions, of course, but the vast majority of blogs are sites for personal ramblings, and devoid of any audience not known to the author personally. We're talking about several orders of magnitude here. Basically, anything can be considered notable if personal sites are allowed to serve as a basis for notability. It is not hard at all to establish a personal site, and participate in enough community-driven forms of media to build several hundred references to that site by means of self-promotion. Thus, how can anything present in the non-notable blogs, but nowhere else, be considered notable?
NetOracle 02:41, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- MMORPG.COM, Worldofwarcraft.com, the Web Comic Cartoonist Chioice Awards are NOT Blogs, ramblings, or personal sites. They are HUGE websites with significant populations of content creators and visitors. Timmccloud 02:52, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Blogs in general are not a reliable or noteworthy source. There are exceptions, of course, but the vast majority of blogs are sites for personal ramblings, and devoid of any audience not known to the author personally. We're talking about several orders of magnitude here. Basically, anything can be considered notable if personal sites are allowed to serve as a basis for notability. It is not hard at all to establish a personal site, and participate in enough community-driven forms of media to build several hundred references to that site by means of self-promotion. Thus, how can anything present in the non-notable blogs, but nowhere else, be considered notable?
NetOracle 02:41, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Well, why invalidate the feedback of blogs? The very presence of positive feedback, even if only largely present among internet communities, should account for some notability. It might not under Wikipedia policy. but such a distinction is immaterial as there presently is no policy to govern the treatment of this medium.
Niffweed17, Destroyer of Chickens 02:21, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Webcomics-related deletions. -- Sid 3050 02:09, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Strong Keep - Once again a small minority of wikipedians are trying to delete notable webcomics. It's notability arises from 1) it has been published somewhere OTHER than it's home page (MMORPG.COM), which is NOT a just a "blog, forum, etc", it's a huge portal of content for MMORPG gamers. 2) There are over 7 million people playing World of Warcraft across the world, and the comic has been featured notibly on the WOW home page. 3) It has been nominated for awards - and as much as a large quantity of wikipedia editors don't want to recognize it - the web comic choice awards ARE a big deal in the field of webcomics, and being nominated meets notablity guidelines. All three of these items make this comic notable, notwithstanding the critical reviews included in the article. So to nominate it for deleteion SOLEY for the fact that it's not mentioned in the "buzz" on Web 2.0 sites this makes is absurd. And to nominate it for deletion because the reviews don't meet some personal criteria of "notablity" when there are other obvious reasons for notability is also unwarranted. Finally your editing comment "(Non-notable web comic, and we're going to sack it.)" shows you to be extremely biased on this topic in general, and your neutrality on this issue now brought into question. Timmccloud 02:48, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Note: for discussion purposes, anyone who is interested in this topic should also review the original discussion by following this link: [2] Timmccloud 02:59, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Note: I find it a FASCINATING coincidence that the nomination for deletion has occured during the authors annual vaction (She won't be back until Feb 18th) so arguably the best reference for information about recent notabilty events is convienently away during the nomination for deletion. I don't suppose that the AFD might possibly be withdrawn until she returns? Timmccloud 03:08, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Reply The sources of supposed notability that you reference suffer from many of the same pitfalls of blogs, forums, and chat rooms.
- First, this "ubersite" looks to be fairly open, and thus, the words of any one poster do not carry the weight or the reputation of the site as would the words of a senior staff writer for, as an example, Forbes Magazine.
- Next, we will address "MMORPG.COM". The only reference to the article's subject is the presence of one single strip, along with a link to the strip's website. There is no review or assertion of notability, and we don't know who is endorsing the comic, or why. Once again, the existence of a mention on a large or notable site does not necessarily convey any weight when determining notability. If I post an classified ad for used computer parts on
Craigslist, is it proper to say that I am a "Active secondhand electronics distributor featured on an
Alexa Top 100 website"?
- Reply Duh. The CURRENT comic is reposted on MMORPG every time a new one comes out. This has been happening for over a year - that constitues "publication". And it's part of the main site navigation, which means that it is PART OF THE WEBSITE. It's not just "posted" by someone. Unfortunately the press release that stated the publication is no longer available on the web, so all that can be done is post the link to the current page. Timmccloud 17:39, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- If you comment on an upstart technology company, it does not make them notable. If Tim Berners-Lee, Bill Gates, or BusinessWeek makes the same comment, then it may very well make the company notable. The common theme here is that "what is said" and "where it is said" is less important than "who says it".
- As for the "Web Cartoonists' Choice Awards", this "organization" is not notable in itself. It appears to be some loosely-organized group of Internet cartoonists, established for the sake of mutual promotion. Awards are only notable if given by a notable organization, and this organization seems to be little more than a hastily constructed site maintained by a very small number of people who share a hobby. Every E-Mail address on the site is some form of free mail, and the site itself is poorly built. Furthermore, the site is hosted and operated by "Keenspace Entertainment", apparently for the purpose of drawing attention to the webcomics it hosts.
- There are a great many notable websites which provide a constant stream of linkage. Most of this linkage is, however, not notable. Should everybody or everything which gets featured on the front page of the abomination known as " Digg" receive an article on Wikipedia?
- The problem I have with the criteria being used here is that any single person, or a few devoted fans, given a few sockpuppets at user-driven sites, or just a regularly updated personal blog, can, under the criteria, elevate a personal creation to a level of notability warranting inclusion.
- The majority of these webcomics have become entrenched because their main readership - namely, those who are on the Internet for recreation constantly - edits Wikipedia with a frequency far removed from the general population. Some of these webcomics, which are essentially personal hobbies of their creators, have articles which far exceed multi-season national television shows and major motion pictures, in both depth and length. Think what you will about the worth and notability of webcomics, but please do not suggest that encyclopediac integrity is served by such a horribly disproportionate representation.
- Please, again, tell me why these webcomics are notable, and how they matter in the overall scheme of things.
- Your comment concerning the timing of the discussion, and the hushed accusation of my intentions as being based in bad faith, is rather inappropriate. I couldn't have named a single webcomic as of yesterday, and only began to care about these things yesterday after I saw a solid case for deletion destroyed by insane levels of meatpuppetry and fanboyism. I have a strong concern that postponing this discussion until the author returns will only allow time for a similar meatpuppet army to assemble. I'm not here to attack a specific strip - I only became involved in this because I saw the professionalism of Wikipedia being compromised by a steady encroachment of fancruft, and wanted to remedy the situation. NetOracle 03:41, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- UM. Where to begin... let's just focus on the things I can handle at 5am. The WCCA has been around since 2001 and also awards comics outside Keenspace (as a quick peek and ANY list of nominations would have told you), so it's hardly hastily assembled or promoting Keenspace comics. It has also been covered on TV, radio and has received half an article in the New York Times. This year's nomination will be at Megacon.
- Your "meatpuppet army" will be the people who maintain the article. Sorry to tell you that, but slipping in an AfD while the comic is vacationing (and thus the editors may not feel the need to check the Wiki article since nothing changed) is going to look fairly bad.
- May I ask what your "solid case for deletion" was? There have been 50+ (by now possibly 60+) such cases for webcomics alone during the past month, so it's somewhat hard to guess which one you mean. The recent wave (to which you just contributed) also explains the "meatpuppet" syndrome you oppose so much - The webcomic world is pretty much up in arms right now because of the dozens of AfDs that axed a few entries of comics that steadily updated for half a decade or so. Another entry of a published comic got axed and had to be recreated via DRV.
- Oh, and somehow, your last paragraph makes it VERY hard to assume good faith. You effectively made the nominations because you saw another AfD being flooded. "Assuming good faith is about intentions, not actions."
- Didn't you stop to think WHY the AfD got flooded? Your effort only contributes to the larger problem - the reputation of Wikipedia in the webcomic world. But considering that you "couldn't have named a single webcomic as of yesterday", I assume that this is not one of your major concerns. --
Sid 3050 04:45, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- The WCCA is not notable. Its website is of shoddy quality. It is hosted by an entity with a set of comics to promote, and therefore not impartial. Its awards seem to be distributed based on raw popular vote. Its coordinators have failed to establish their notability. Please provide evidence of "TV coverage". Is everything mentioned in any small capacity now suddenly notable?
- reply not every non-profit orginization has the funding to hire the best webmasters, often these notable groups do with voulenteer work. Your assertion that the orginization is not notable based on 1) the quality of their website and 2) keenspot sponsering it has no merit. Timmccloud 17:39, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- The WCCA is not notable. Its website is of shoddy quality. It is hosted by an entity with a set of comics to promote, and therefore not impartial. Its awards seem to be distributed based on raw popular vote. Its coordinators have failed to establish their notability. Please provide evidence of "TV coverage". Is everything mentioned in any small capacity now suddenly notable?
- You said that the creator is on vacation, yet you assert that there is a large group of legitimate editors who wrote the article. Why should the creator's vacation have anything to do with this, unless you anticipated him rallying a group of puppets to action?
- Have you considered that the trend of AfD'ing webcomics might be the result of a general backlash against fancruft accumulating within a walled garden? Not everything is a vendetta or conspiracy.
- I made the AfD because I saw another AfD in which a meatpuppet army tried to save an article about a non-notable subject. The Ugly Hill AfD was flooded with meatpuppets, and possibly sockpuppets. This should not be happening, and reflects poorly on those who engaged in ballot stuffing. This is the result of external fanboyism spilling over into Wikipedia. This sort of passion for a specific and generally non-notable string of subjects and characters is best reserved for a specific Wiki hosted by a Wikia-esque service.
- Have you
considered that I might have made these nominations for deletion because I honestly believe in principles such as
verifiability,
reliable sources, and
encyclopedic standards? I am an outsider to the world of webcomics, and don't see how the hundreds of strips featured by Wikipedia are notable to the rest of us. You are right - webcomics are not my concern. Improving Wikipedia is.
NetOracle 05:01, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- WCCA: NYT, TV, Radio (link is to the announcement, but I have no reason to doubt the validity). The website is easy to navigate, and I don't see how it is "shoddy". Subjectivity, much? And an official Wal-Mart site had been completely broken in Firefox for a good while. Would that mean that Wal-Mart is non-notable? (No, don't answer that, I just used the example to stress the point that "good website" is not a notability criterion).
- I did not "anticipate" a rally, but common sense implies that article editing frequency is in some relation to event frequency. When is it more likely for most editors to visit an article? When the primary information source does not update or when it does?
- I am in no position to judge why dozens of major comic entries get vaped in large waves, but the nominations I saw hint that there either is bias or that the nominations were made by people with little knowledge about webcomics at all. The fact that the webcomic awards were quietly edged out of the Web Notability rules and then got vaped from Wikipedia (surrounded by quick nominations for comics that based their notability on them) sort of makes it hard to assume good faith for the whole situation.
- Yes, I feared that you meant Ugly Hill. It's an award-winning and published webcomic, so of course the webcomic community (already in a "I might be next!" mood) spread the word about this nomination. There is a world outside of Wikipedia, and you can't expect it to stay silent during these deletion waves. Right now, the reputation of Wikipedia has suffered immensely in the eyes of webcomic communities, so you should expect a strong reaction to AfDs, especially for major comics. I'm not saying that I think this is a good thing, but I am realistic enough to see that it is quite inevitable.
- Before your comments, I did assume good faith. But now I only see somebody nominating articles of a genre he knows nothing about, for the sole reason of retaliation for an AfD going a way you don't like. Your actions seem noble, but your motivation is not. I simply cannot assume that you act in good faith. This is just you going all "Oh, so you didn't like that, huh? Let's see how you like THIS!". So please spare me the "My only goal is to improve Wikipedia" talk, it sounds mighty hollow. --
Sid 3050 12:38, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- I noticed that nobody has offered a rebuttal to my analysis of all the sources as unreliable and non-notable, with the specific exception of that awards committee.
- Wikipedia has established policies and guidelines as to what sources are acceptable, and how those sources should be interpreted. Please see verifiability, reliable sources, and encyclopedic standards. WP:WEB does apply here, but its guidelines for sourcing material and determining notability and verifiability are still shaped by the other policies and guidelines dealing with source integrity.
- When you apply policy to the majority of these articles on webcomics, the articles lose the footing on which their supporters built them. Enthusiasm can be good, and is admirable, but we, as editors, need to exercise some professional integrity in our analysis of source material.
- One good rule of thumb for determining notability is the test of time. I have a concern that the majority of these webcomic-related articles will, 5-10 years from now, be unpublished and virtually unknown. Now, granted, there are many notable webcomics. Among these are ones which set milestones for revenue and exposure, shaped the evolution of the genre, and influenced humanity in a broad sense. This is why the entry on Columella is valid - does anyone here honestly believe that the majority of these comics will still be remembered in 2 decades, let alone 2 millenia?
- The majority of these entries are fancruft, and are beginning to look like a walled garden.
- There was meatpuppetry on the Ugly Hill AfD. Recruiting supporters offsite to bolster an AfD argument is not proper, and is against policy.
- If these articles were notable on their own, you wouldn't have to rally your supporters to stop the deletion from going forward. A notable subject's article will be written by disinterested third parties, in the spirit of building Wikipedia. A non-notable subject's article will only be written by fans and other strong supporters. Your claim that this deletion was timed to coincide with the author's vacation only furthers my case against this article as fancruft. If this article is notable, then it will stand on its own, and without the evils of meatpuppetry or bloc voting.
- During a time when Wikipedia is struggling for acceptance as a solid and reliable reference, the expansion of fancruft and non-notable material only dilutes the reputation of the encyclopedia as a whole. NetOracle 18:15, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Groan. Pay attention who you reply to. I was not the one who brought up the timing, I am not the one who is rallying anybody. Indeed, I think YOU are the one who instantly started pointing fingers about rallying people. Paranoia, much? And if you had paid any attention at all, you would have noticed that I haven't even voiced any Delete/Keep opinion so far, so I'm hardly the one you could accuse of meatpuppetry or fancruft or whatever.
- I think it's a given that in TWO THOUSAND YEARS, not even Wikipedia will be remembered. So let's delete everything! Your entire "must influence humanity" and "must stand the test of time" makes me curious. Please point out the exact policy that lists these things as requirements. Cite sources. I'm honestly curious.
- The current flood of AfDs is a nasty call for sources, so I think it's a double standard to call for sources, but protest when new people join to argue about whether certain sources count or not.
- Additionally, AfDs like the one for Starslip Crisis are based on the simple fact that an admin decided to ignore given sources for an award and declared it to be non-notable. And all of a sudden, a well-sourced article becomes not sourced at all. If an Admin suddenly declared CNN or the NYT to be non-notable, how many articles would fail to stand on their own? You cling to policies, but blindly accept that the wikiality suddenly changes. If/when WCCA gets restored, will you say "Yes, of course it fulfills policy"? I surely hope so.
- A webcomic with more than five years of archived material, hundreds or thousands of strips and a dedicated fanbase don't count AT ALL in the current Web Notability rules. Without a dedicated newspaper article or a lengthy TV report, such a comic will be declared as non-notable as the average Geocities page. And thanks to the eager Admins who quickly got rid of the major webcomic awards, Wikipedia has become a "Get published or get out" site. So please tell me this: Is that the greater goal of Wikipedia? Kick out everything that hasn't changed the fate of mankind?
- And I honestly ask you: What hurts the reputation of Wikipedia more: A few articles about things that have a large following, or pissing off thousands of people that read about Wikipedia's mass deletions on tons of blogs and webcomic news?
- Oh, and people ignoring your "analysis" does not mean that you are right by default, even if you'd like to imply it. -- Sid 3050 19:39, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Not every word of that reply was directed toward you. There are a number of parallel discussions occuring in this deletion debate, and I chose to save time by combining my thoughts into a single reply.
- I never leveled an accusation of meatpuppetry or solicitation of meatpuppetry against any specific editor. I merely pointed out that a recent AfD had been plagued by an invasion of meatpuppets hell-bent on perpetuated the fancruft within. If an article can only be saved through meatpuppetry, its subject probably isn't notable to begin with. When I stand accused of timing my nomination to coincide with the vacation of a webcomic's author, I have to question why the author's vacation should even enter in to the equation. Is the motion for postponment based strictly on a desire to see one person be able to comment on the AfD, or is it a cover for something more sinister, such as the author making a website, forum, chat, or blog entry soliciting meatpuppet activity?
- It is incivil to accuse another editor of being a meatpuppet or soliciting meatpuppets without probable cause, which is why I made no such accusation. I merely used the presence of meatpuppets in a completely seperate AfD as an indicator of problems within that AfD.
- I cannot speak for other editors, but I did not put forth this nomination as an underhanded and hostile way of calling for sources. We have templates which are used to request sources when an article which probably meets notability guidelines is lacking the sources which make it whole. I put forth this nomination because I have a genuine belief that this webcomic does not meet notability guidelines, and the sources it is built on fail to establish notability and importance in a manner which maintains professionalism and encyclopedic integrity. Wikipedia has policies on verifiability, reliable sources, and encyclopedic standards for good reason. I feel the letter and spirit of these policies is breached by this article and the sources used to support its alledged notability.
- There IS some serious fancruft going on here. Regardless of whether the article is deemed to be notable or not, this and many other webcomic-related articles have articles in size and depth which are grossly disproportionate to their notability and importance. Why should a webcomic, produced as a hobby, and having a limited readership in the thousands of tens of thousands, contain plot summaries and character descriptions with far more clarity than is present in the articles of most major motion pictures and nationally syndicated television programs?
- If other people are offended or upset because something they find amusing is deleted according to established policies of verifiability, reliable sources, and encyclopedic standards, then that is their problem. I cannot control whether they choose to follow and believe in the letter and spirit of Wikipedia's policies or not. Good-faith AfD nominations are not disparagements of the subjects or authors involved.
- In proper debate, failing to make a mention, let alone a rebuttal, is a de facto admission of surrender on a specific point. NetOracle 20:25, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- So you de facto admit that the WCCA is notable? You didn't bring it up anymore when I cited the sources... :P (Cutting off the rest at this point since it has gotten WAYYYYY out of hand, so this will most likely be my last edit here. Well, that, and Wikipedia is seriously eating away my free time - do the established Wiki editors have a life outside the Wiki? If so, please tell me your secret! O_o) -- Sid 3050 21:43, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- keep This comic is way more notable than most of the rest. I can see where some people not familiar with the scene might delete the other ones, but this one is so notable that anything against it is just hate toward non traditional entertainment. Wizardbrad 04:41, 10 February 2007 (UTC) — Wizardbrad ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- keep seems notable enough and the article is fairly well written. Variety of articles is what makes wikipedia impressive as a living encyclodpedia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Justinboden86 ( talk • contribs) 04:52, 10 February 2007 (UTC).
- Keep It is notable enough. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Luckyherb ( talk • contribs) 06:45, 10 February 2007 (UTC).
- Keep. I had not heard of this strip prior to perusing the AFDs in examining the contention that webcomics are being targeted. Alexa ranking (32,000) bears out what the various links within the article and the previous VFD indicate, namely, that this is a very heavily trafficked comic with great prominence in the online RPG community. That is has been published independently online as well as in print make it clearly notable by the standards of Wikipedia. I will further note that the assertion of the WCCA as non-notable is disputable. I do not wish to assume bad faith, but I find NetOracle's expressed desire to "sack" this article to be a disturbing indicator of such. Balancer 08:47, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep I am an avid reader of the comic, as well as many people I know both personally and through the internet. We are certainly not meatpuppets and I take offense at this insinuation. Through his claims of ballot stuffing and meatpuppetry, NetOracle could explain away any kind of following or rallying in defense of this comic without any proof. Simply because he does not take interest in this webcomic or others does not mean it is not notable. Sheora 09:48, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Strong Keep I fail to see the validity in NetOracle's argument on notability. Among webcomic circles, The Noob is regularly very highly ranked on two of the three comic listings, and has a very active and supportive reader community. If this was a "Webcomic Wiki" there should be little doubt that all webcomics that are a) active and b) regularly updated should be represented. So why here is the judgement made that being only a webcomic individual instances that have not been presented in mainstream national media should be considered not notable?
- You admit yourself that you hadn't really encountered webcomics - you are most likely a totally inappropriate person to judge the notability of an individual entity in a sphere that does not interest you. Someone may be interested in military modelling and do an article on a specific era of modelling -- totally uninteresting to me, but probably extremely useful for some die hard modelling fanatics, and good for them. Wikipedia is precisely about having in depth and accurate articles broadly across as many topics is possible for the information and reading of the general public. On the whole I only come to Wikipedia to look up things I don't already know about.
- You claim that the support comes from a small section of population? So does most support for things that are not worldwide phenomena, so why would that make them less interesting as included articles as a whole? I suspect there is more current interest in The Noob than, for example, the Roman writer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columella, yet he manages to escape any need for deletion. Why not have every writer from every culture ever that there is some kind of written record of? Most of those will not be at all notable to vast swathes of the population, yet I suspect there will be little complaint about such historical figures.
- You talk about main media resources. I doubt for a second that BBC News, Reuters, Tim Berners-Lee, Bill Gates, ZDNet or anyone else has written about Columella, so lets sack that article too. In fact, lets Google for each Wiki article we find that looks obscure, and if there appears to be no large international media story or commentary about them then sack those articles too! And so we can steadily destroy the fantastic library of genuine interest articles that Wikipedia has managed to set up.
- This site builds its reputation for two reasons. Firstly, it is on the whole well researched, works hard to avoid bias and provide a balanced argument in areas of contention, and is well presented and supported both by users and moderators. Secondly, it is extremely broad with a wide reach into the most obscure of subcategories in any given subject. Webcomics are now popular enough that some writers earn their entire living from donations, and I cannot see how your personal interest in them can be used as a judging factor in whether or not they should be allowed on Wikipedia.
- So having already had so many comments that it should be kept in this discussion, perhaps it is notable to enough people to keep, especially as so far your reasoning for removing it appears not to have gathered much momentum? And perhaps webcomic entries should be moderated and marked potentially as AfD by administrators and content moderators with some level of interest in webcomics as a whole?
Topazg 11:02, 10 February 2007 (UTC) —
Topazg (
talk •
contribs) has made
few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Comment. Topazg happens to be an articulate editor who's familiar with the subject and puts thought and effort into his messages, while the nominator started editing yesterday, admits to having no knowledge about the field and has concerned himself with little else than deletion nominations and discussions. --
Kizor 21:06, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- This was about a 'few or other edits' tag that appears to be no longer here. --
Kizor 00:38, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- The spa tag was removed by Wizardbrad's sockpuppet. I put it back, but note that I did not originally put it there, nor necessarily agree with it.. -- Krator 01:00, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- This was about a 'few or other edits' tag that appears to be no longer here. --
Kizor 00:38, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Comment. Topazg happens to be an articulate editor who's familiar with the subject and puts thought and effort into his messages, while the nominator started editing yesterday, admits to having no knowledge about the field and has concerned himself with little else than deletion nominations and discussions. --
Kizor 21:06, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Comment. Can we all slow down a bit here before we get carried away? On all sides? The debate has been getting pretty heated. Timmccloud, even if we had any reason to assume that NetOracle knew the comic's author was away, it wouldn't make a difference. Articles are supposed to stand on their own merits. Getting authors involved is in no way policy, required or common, nor has it been beneficial in several cases where one did get involved. --
Kizor 11:24, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- In the case of these "I see no sources, so let's AfD it to encourage the editors to find them" AfDs, it's highly counter-productive to nominate comics that are on a brief hiatus. -- Sid 3050 12:38, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Continuing the comment after I was distracted by shiny things and a relative closed the window (this part is written after Krator's message, mind): NetOracle... cool down. Please. Your comments (nominating as a reaction, "
We're going to sack it"..) give the impression of acting out of personal indignation. The train wreck at Ugly Hill was far from usual, the worst one I've seen in this field. Your assumptions - the WCCA are for self-promotion, meatpuppetry is to be expected - are broad, severe and, well, wrong.
Sid has a point, too. It's an odd one, but not long ago I e-mailed an author and he responded with additional data, sources and proofs that turned an AfD from 2-3 to 6-0. -- Kizor 21:00, 10 February 2007 (UTC) - Sid, Kizor, that was my point, that you for clarifying it - last time the noob was up for AFD, it was my communication with the author that allowed me to enhance the article with proper refrerences and information. This time round, the best reference to the work is unavailable. Timmccloud 01:46, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete. No substantial coverage by reliable sources as required by WP:WEB etc., only by websites of varying levels of ephemerality. The only reliable source cited, the Yahoo News story, mentions the subject only tangentially. Sandstein 11:51, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete no sign of multiple, non-trivial, independent reliable sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Started by a single purpose account, like most webcomic articles, it's a depository for character bios and trivia which is not even available on the site itself. Sources for some claims in the article, such as the comic being 'well-known' amongst MMORPG players, probably don't exist.-- Nydas (Talk) 12:59, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete per nom and per Nydas. Inkpaduta 15:23, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Strong Keep per Balancer and Topazg. I also agree with Kizor. -- Krator 15:26, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete Fancruft. Wile E. Heresiarch 17:31, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- note re [WP:WEB] notability is asserted - "Notability on Wikipedia for Web-specific content[3] is based on the following criterion"
- 1 The content itself has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the site itself. MMPORPG.COM, WorldofWarcraft.com Timmccloud 17:39, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- 2 The content is distributed via a medium which is both well known and independent of the creators, either through an online newspaper or magazine, an online publisher, or an online broadcaster. MMORPG.COM
Timmccloud 17:39, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Please cite instances where staff editors (not people with a forum/commentary account) make a significant mention of the subject. My concern is that these sources do not establish the notability of the subject, and are little more than one of many tangential mentions of sites which may fall under the category of "interesting, and worth a click" (but only to a specific subculture) but not notable. Furthermore, the mentions I saw earlier gave no indication of authorship, and thus, carried no weight associated with the entity responsible for publication.
NetOracle 18:35, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- "Please cite instances where staff editors (not people with a forum/commentary account) make a significant mention of the subject."
- Answer:
- On mmorpg.com, the section where The noob is mentioned, is not one where people with forum/commentary accounts can make additions to.
- On WorldofWarcrat.com, The noob was featured in a news item, which is, again, a section of the site that needs more than a forum/commentary account.
- -- Krator 21:49, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Please cite instances where staff editors (not people with a forum/commentary account) make a significant mention of the subject. My concern is that these sources do not establish the notability of the subject, and are little more than one of many tangential mentions of sites which may fall under the category of "interesting, and worth a click" (but only to a specific subculture) but not notable. Furthermore, the mentions I saw earlier gave no indication of authorship, and thus, carried no weight associated with the entity responsible for publication.
NetOracle 18:35, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Note: The noob is mentioned quite a lot in sections of notable and reliable websites (Gamespot, Ign, WoW, etc) where just a forum or commentary account is needed to add content. However, I agree with you that these shouldn't be used to support any claims of notability for The noob. They do, however, support the claims that The noob is reknown throughout the MMO community.
Comment: I might also add that there was a previous AfD for this article, which resulted in a discussion not unlike the one observed here right now. Note that the article has significantly improved since then, and now includes a lot more encyclopaedic content (i.e: about the satire of MMORPG culture in the comic) in relation to the amount of 'descriptive' content. As the article has only improved, and so has the number of references and reviews included therein, I question whether this debate will reach a different conclusion than the last one. That being said, I'd like to propose WP:SNOW, because the conclusion of no consensus seems imminent. -- Krator 22:09, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Strong Keep Definitely notable, and liked by many.BlackMateria 22:23, 10 February 2007 (UTC) BlackMateria ( talk · contribs) is a confirmed illegitimate sockpuppet of Wizardbrad ( talk · contribs) (who has already commented in this AfD), and as a result BlackMateria is blocked indefinitely. Please see Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Wizardbrad for more information. Krator 00:30, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Strong Keep - As Timmccloud and others have amply demonstrated, the argument for deleting The noob is incredibly weak. Almost to where it is laughable, really. I'm incredulous that the article is here again. The vendetta against webcomics continues, it would seem. – Xoid 22:42, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Strong Keep - This article deletion seems complete vendictful and mean. Its just shocking to me why someone would want to step on and destroy the hard works and passions of others. So what if our comics are enjoyed by a select few? We are a community.FGreen1989 22:51, 10 February 2007 (UTC) FGreen1989 ( talk · contribs) is a confirmed illegitimate sockpuppet of Wizardbrad ( talk · contribs) (who has already commented in this AfD), and as a result FGreen1989 is blocked indefinitely. Please see Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Wizardbrad for more information. Krator 00:30, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Keep because calling something "fancruft" is just a way of being hateful and disparaging something. Somebody cared enough to put work into it, therefore we should keep it. This page hurts nobody else. I don't see why we have to crush the work of some because of elitists hiding behind a shield of "profesionnalism" or "encyclopedic standards". Webcomics are about fun and entertainment, but they still are notable. Just because they aren't all run for huge corporate profit and aren't stuffy like 18th century British Literature doesn't mean that talking about them is unprofesional.CSMASTER84 22:58, 10 February 2007 (UTC) CSMASTER84 ( talk · contribs) is a confirmed illegitimate sockpuppet of Wizardbrad ( talk · contribs) (who has already commented in this AfD), and as a result CSMASTER84 is blocked indefinitely. Please see Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Wizardbrad for more information. Krator 00:30, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Keep I think this is worthy of an article even right now. Let it stay and we'll improve it. There is nothing wrong with the subject, it just isn't as complete as it should be. Thats no reason to stomp it out.Ccfr88 23:20, 10 February 2007 (UTC) Ccfr88 ( talk · contribs) is a confirmed illegitimate sockpuppet of Wizardbrad ( talk · contribs) (who has already commented in this AfD), and as a result Ccfr88 is blocked indefinitely. Please see Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Wizardbrad for more information. Krator 00:30, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Comment: Tagged three votes above with Spa because the only edit made by these accounts is on this page. I hate to see meatpuppets here, and I didn't ask for them, even if they support my point(s). It doesn't matter though, because of WP:NOT. I encourage the nominator to take my suggestion of using WP:SNOW here into account, in order to get back to editing instead of debating. -- Krator 23:10, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Comment: Confirmed to be sockpuppets, and votes deleted and tagged as such. I noticed
Kizor (
talk ·
contribs) and
Xoid (
talk ·
contribs) edited this page concerning these sockpuppets while I was doing so too, but I think keeping the text is to be preferred, because I fear that there'll be some more debate on sock and meatpuppets in this AfD. --
Krator 00:32, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks be to you. -- Kizor 00:38, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks from me too - sockpuppets pollute the dialog. -- Timmccloud 01:37, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks from me too. Eliminating sockpuppets which were supporting your side's opinion was a stand up thing to do. I did, however, notice this edit in the history: [3] Can someone with access check to see if Topazg is operating any sockpuppets, considering that a sockpuppet tried to whitewash some facts concerning his history here?
- Deletet: Lacks the multiple non-trivial independent sources necessary for verifiable, NPOV encyclopedia writing. My library searches have turned up no reputable sources. -- Dragonfiend 01:54, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep per User:Timmccloud, User:Kizor, and User:Balancer. Although I am not a fan of comics (print or online), I think the notability of the comic has been demonstrated (recongition by notable websites). Another factor to consider is the possibly inappropriate nature of the nomination, when {{ unreferenced}} or {{ notability}} may have sufficed. Black Falcon 02:08, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete, with a reminder to everyone to have a quick look at WP:ILIKEIT (do we need a WP:SOMEONENOTABLELIKESIT for arguments to avoid too?). Unless reliable sources have covered this, which I see no evidence of, it's not notable. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 02:47, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- And what pray tell is "relaible" by your definition? A major MMORPG software developent company like Blizzard covers it on the flagship games website home page, and it doesn't meet your "reliable" criteria? The largest webcomic award - WCCA - nominates it for an award and that's not "reliable"? Timmccloud 03:37, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Blizzard? There's a link to mmorpg.com, which is also the source cited for that assertion, but I followed the link. Nothing on that page supports that assertion whatsoever, it's just the site's homepage. As to WCCA, no, Notability is not popularity, nor did the site even win, it just received an honorable mention. I suppose the award site is reliable as to who won an award, but certainly, that's not enough source material for a comprehensive article-the award site only mentions their name once! Coverage must also be non-trivial, certainly a name-drop is as trivial as it gets! Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 03:48, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, Blizzard, World of Warcraft, worldofwarcraft.com. Your lack of knowledge in the area of MMORPG games dilutes your opinions on notablity - within the gaming communitiy this comic is very notable. And that gaming community is larger than the wikipedia community in size, so notability is herby asserted for "a noticeable effect on culture". Granted that it's not YOUR culture is obvious, but members of the gaming culture who are in this thread assert notabily, and it should be respected. Timmccloud 14:37, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep per Niffweed17, Destroyer of Chickens and others. Mathmo Talk 05:37, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep saying this comic is not widely recognized is ignorant. There is a huge fanbase. People like it. It is notable. Period. 06:34, 11 February 2007 (UTC) Gozerthegreat 06:38, 11 February 2007 (UTC)— Gozerthegreat ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Uh, I just saw a thread about this. I have to say I am really quite shocked. This is one of the biggest comic strips out there. Its everywhere. And on every important forum and weblog directory too. Deleting this would be illegal censorship.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Doomtrooper6 Doomtrooper6 ( talk · contribs) is a confirmed illegitimate sockpuppet of Wizardbrad ( talk · contribs) (who has already commented in this AfD), and as a result Doomtrooper6 is blocked indefinitely. Please see Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Wizardbrad for more information. User:Krator ( t c) 13:31, 12 February 2007 (UTC)- Keep this article. I don't see what purpose it serves to delete it. It isn't like Wikipedia is going to run out of memory. Zeruzero 08:20, 11 February 2007 (UTC)— Zeruzero ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Keep per the fact that many other Webcomics are listed. It seems like a well-written article. Usually short stub-type nonsensical articles get tagged for deletion. If this is deleted, maybe wikibooks will accept it, if they accept comics. BuickCenturyDriver 08:57, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep Timmccloud said basically everything I want to say. FWIW, this seems to be just wasting time and creating tension. The Nazis in the anti-webcomic camp need to learn some tolerance. Dorikonu 09:25, 11 February 2007 (UTC)— Dorikonu ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Ohforf'sake. --
Kizor 09:43, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- huh? BuickCenturyDriver 11:00, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Weak delete Doesn't seem to meet notability guidelines, and I've always wanted to be an illegal censoring anti-webcomic Nazi!
One Night In Hackney 09:48, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- The frustrating thing about notibilty is that people will base it on whether or not the subject familiar to them or their peers as opposed to a whether or not it belongs on wikipedia and the community accepting it. BuickCenturyDriver 11:00, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Comment I'm basing my vote on whether The noob meets WP:WEB. Has it been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the site itself? In my opinion, no. The coverage it has isn't from reliable sources, or it's trivial. Take the World of Warcraft "review", it doesn't review the site at all. The ubersite "review" is on a site where submissions seem to be open to all and sundry. The article states The Noob has been invited (article's emphasis not mine) to post on MMPORG, but that isn't verified by the reference. In my opinion it's a long way short of WP:WEB. One Night In Hackney 11:58, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- That teaches you a lesson about consensus. If you want to call them votes, just count the number of users. But these are comments and they are counted based on experiance. New user comments are discounted (because accounts are free on WP) but account with experiance and especially sysops and admins usually have more impact. The legitimacy usually depends on experiance and reputation.
BuickCenturyDriver 13:32, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Comment Actually, I normally use the term !vote but I neglected to include an exclamation mark on this occasion. I regard your condescending tone as inappropriate, and I suggest you return to debating the matter at hand. One Night In Hackney 13:40, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Notability is asserted - The january 2007 issue of the Norwegian Print magazine PEGASUS (ISSN 1890-0704) has started publishing the noob - on page 4 of the following link Pegasus January 2007. This meets notablity per "and are cited by established publications". I have included this reference in the article as well. Timmccloud 15:13, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. This is "notable", and stuff. Nothing I see that's wrong with it. -- Chris is me (u/c/t) 19:25, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Keep in print is in print, and that makes this "notable". This isn't some comic that some kid drew in art class one day. This is a real publication.Mikemasterful 20:45, 11 February 2007 (UTC) Mikemasterful ( talk · contribs) is a confirmed illegitimate sockpuppet of Dorikonu ( talk · contribs) (who has already commented in this AfD), and as a result Mikemasterful is blocked indefinitely. Please see Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Wizardbrad for more information. User:Krator ( t c) 13:31, 12 February 2007 (UTC)Keep subject is certainly notable.Frobber6 21:08, 11 February 2007 (UTC) Frobber6 ( talk · contribs) is a confirmed illegitimate sockpuppet of Dorikonu ( talk · contribs) (who has already commented in this AfD), and as a result Frobber6 is blocked indefinitely. Please see Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Wizardbrad for more information. User:Krator ( t c) 13:31, 12 February 2007 (UTC)- Strong keep per Timmccloud, Kizor, and Balancer. It is clearly referenced by notable sources. JackSparrow Ninja 21:10, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Comment The puppetry here is out of hand, and this has become the Ugly Hill AfD all over again. I'm going to get it cleaned up, and then we can proceed. NetOracle 22:24, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep This comic is generally well known, it has been referanced on major sites (web comic awards, Blizzard main page, various gaming sites), and as shown above even published. My own initial exposure to it came from ingame references from other players and images from it being used as forum avatars/linked inside posts, on the World of Warcraft forums. Which says something about it having a following in the gaming community. There's probably 5-10 or so other webcomics of similar notability that i can think of, and i don't think cutting off most of the webcomic content on wikipedia helps anyone who actually has any interest in the subject. -- Helixdq 02:32, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- I contest (and removed) the {{spa}} that was given to this user. As Special:Contributions/Helixdq shows, Helixdq has made several edits outside this topic (even to articles not connected to this topic at all), and the account has been active for much longer than this AfD. To keep it civil in here, I think it is paramount that a clear distinction is made between those who create an account just to !vote here (vote stacking/meat puppets) and 'normal' !votes. I quote from WP:SPA: "Please note that any other use of this tag is highly discouraged as it can be interpreted as a personal attack that may lead to action being taken against you."
- -- User:Krator ( t c) 13:51, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete I have not seen adequate evidence provided that this webcomic has met any of the guidelines described within WP:WEB. There are some sources, but not a substantial ammount sufficient for covering the requirement of multiple non-trivial published works. The awards and recognition have been limited to non-notable organizations and blogs. Leebo 86 13:49, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep Notability is established, and this is routinely mentioned on sites related to the MMORPG culture. Also, calling something a subculture with derisive implications (as in that makes them non-notavble) is silly. Millions of users is beyond notable. And this has been on the front page of the "main" mmorp portal, mmorpg.com, and World of warcraft.com - Denny 17:10, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. Not all of the references meet my personal standards for reliability, but there is sufficient sourcing of a reliable nature to suggest that this comic is in fact notable. (jarbarf) 19:45, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. Holy crap, this is the longest deletion discussion I've ever seen. As it stands now, the article is not deletable. YechielMan 22:48, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete though I can see that won't happen. If Wikipedia does not want to be overwhelmed by internet ephemera it must draw a line in the sand. An official policy is definitely needed. Rkevins 08:41, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete per others above and because of the massive amount of sockpuppetry in this AFD. SakotGrimshine 10:53, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Comment The sockpuppetry has been well identified in order to ignore it's contribution to the discussion. Deleting the article out of spite because some people make ill advised attempts to save it is NOT a reason to ignore the validity of the other commentary. It makes it more difficult to mediate, yes, and I personally wish they hadn't done so, but there are serious reasons to keep this article, and serious discussions between the meat puppetry. Timmccloud 12:57, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- While I certainly don't agree with you on the notability of the subject, I do have to agree with your stance on the sockpuppetry. The presence of puppets alone should not sway a person to disagree with the viewpoint held by the puppets out of spite. If this deletion goes forward, it should be on the merits of the discussion held, and not the interference in the discussion by those who don't wish to play by the rules. All that can be said of the puppetry is that a large fan community exists, many of whom have no problems in introducing cruft into articles, or puppets into discussion NetOracle 04:54, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep The comic (and by extention the article) seems to have quite a bit of support and in any case the articles quite well written-- Bisected8 12:43, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete Qualiy of comic: irrelevant. Author on vacation: irrelevant. Lots of people like it: irrelevant. Lots of noise on blogs: irrelevant. No evidence of multiple non-trivial coverage in reliable, independent secondary sources: relevant per policy and guideline, not yet rebutted. Please provide sources. Guy ( Help!) 16:07, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep, three published books on it sounds notable enough for me. >Radiant< 16:31, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete has not had "...a noticeable effect on culture, society, and media, and are cited by established publications. " -
Francis Tyers
· 16:38, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Comment. Is it worth noting that NetOracle just made those criteria up himself, and furthermore has shown himself to be operating under his own idea of what Wikipedia should be by saying that we should restrict ourselves to those subjects that will "stand the test of time"? -- Kizor 08:31, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- Comment: Where you say
***
During a time when Wikipedia is struggling for acceptance as a solid and reliable reference, the expansion of fancruft and non-notable material only dilutes the reputation of the encyclopedia as a whole. NetOracle 18:15, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
***
I would like to disagree. What calls the reputation of wikipedia into question is the fact that a small minority keep on calling wikipedia's objectivity into question by deleting what they have subjectively determined to be subjective content. The objectivity of wikipedia is of more value to the site's reputation than anything else. If wikipedia is not objective, then how can it be trusted at all? Just because it contains vast amounts of what could be considered trivial data (please note that the articles regarding Knuckles the Echidna and Hitmonchan are longer than the article on European History), that does not mean that this data is not a valid reference for those who seek it. Furthermore, due to the open nature of a wiki they are going to struggle for a long time to come before they are regarded as "solid and reliable". Right now, objectivity is all that wikipedia has, and it is being fast eroded by the same pomposity displayed in the passage I have quoted.
TNUK 00:52, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- Why do you classify the articles as "objective", yet deletion decisions "subjective"? I agree with you that objectivity is essential, and that is why I launched this deletion process to begin with. Writing a long, in-depth article about a subject because you like it conflicts with established principles of verifiability, reliable sources, and encyclopedic standards. The articles you mentioned are far too long for an objective encyclopedia not associated with a specific form of pop culture, and probably shouldn't exist. Writing a long and detailed article for a non-notable subject only gives it a false sense of notability to those not familiar with it. Wikipedia needs to be objective, and part of this involves fans of a particular entertainment medium or specific work controlling the impulse to bypass encyclopedic standards and source integrity simply because the subject in question made an impact on their life. WP:BAND frequently sacks articles profiling small, non-notable bands. The people writing these articles (generally the members themselves, or their close friends) do so in good faith, but without the objectivity of a neutral observer. There are thousands of non-notable bands, just as there are thousands of non-notable webcomics, and neither belong on Wikipedia. Inclusion in Wikipedia can give a reader a false sense of notability, and readers of Wikipedia should not be deceived as to notability because several people like it.
- Conversely, holding a distaste for something is not a valid reason to delete or prune it. At this point, let us make an important semantical distinction: not liking something is not the same as disliking something. Of particular concern are some of the comments that I have received indicating that someone who does not like webcomics has no business in pruning them down or deleting them. This notion is misguided; if only people who like webcomics participate in those articles, then they will fill up with biased fancruft. How can an article be objective if only one viewpoint is considered? The only people who should not participate in webcomic-related discussions are those who have vendettas against webcomics. I don't have a vendetta against webcomics; I simply don't find them humorous, and I don't associate with the typical nerd/gamer stereotypes portrayed in them. If I were to go around nominating things which I dislike for not being entertaining at all, I would have started with Speed 2, as pretty much everyone agrees that it sucks. If I were going to troll the genre, I would have started with a notable webcomic such as Penny Arcade.
- The reason this discussion seems excessively long is because a significant amount of
biased editing by fans has transpired in the past, and the community as a whole needs to develop standards for webcomic inclusion. This debate has already been had with other fancruft-prone subjects, such as
Star Wars and
Star Trek, and the articles in those genre have been evaluated for notability, and much of the cruft transwikied to places which exist specifically for non-objective writing. When we look at articles, we must do so from a
neutral point of view. If multiple, non-trivial published sources document a subject, then it meets inclusion criteria, and should be documented in an objective way that does not falsely misrepresent the notability of the subject to multiple, disinterested third parties. I have a concern that the cruft found in many of the webcomic articles is both not useful and misrepresentative to those reading Wikipedia as an objective encyclopedia. I could have just as easily gone after other instances of cruft; the massive number of articles on non-notable
Idol contestants is ridiculous too, and had I encountered it before I did similarly problematic articles on webcomics, I'd be off trying to apply encyclopedic standards to it, instead of here.
NetOracle 04:33, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- Your argument is specious. "There's cruft in there, so we should delete the entire article". That reasoning warrants a {{
cleanup}}, not an {{
afd}}. As we've already established this webcomic is notable, so don't try pulling that one. –
Xoid 06:07, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- The presence of cruft in an otherwise notable article is a symptom of the same ILIKEIT editing which has created non-notable articles to begin with. Thus, non-notable webcomics do far more harm than fancruft-filled articles like the Final Fantasy series. An article such as Sinfest would be much more deserving of a cruft cleanup tag than an AfD tag. Completely unencyclopedic articles are a much greater concern than articles with a bit of cruft; i.e., cruft in itself is less misrepresentative to a reader than the existence of an article which probably shouldn't be around in the first place. AfD is not a substitute for cruft cleanup, and we haven't established that this webcomic is notable, given that this AfD is still open. NetOracle 06:14, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- Your argument is specious. "There's cruft in there, so we should delete the entire article". That reasoning warrants a {{
cleanup}}, not an {{
afd}}. As we've already established this webcomic is notable, so don't try pulling that one. –
Xoid 06:07, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. Any deletion proceeding where a claim of "cruft" is the primary motivation for deletion should not happen. Cruft forever! Rogue 9 02:46, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- Comment I don't want to seem like I'm questioning each keep !vote, but if you could cite some policy or guideline for your reasoning, it would be appreciated. Leebo 86 03:06, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- Comment: WP:CRUFT itself states that cruft cannot be the primary reason for deletion. However, an article's cruftiness can be a determining factor when other valid reasons for deletion are met. ( Justyn 21:31, 14 February 2007 (UTC))
- Comment Justyn beat me to it. Yelling "cruft" isn't a reason to delete anything, and the reasoning behind the nomination boils down to "I think this is cruft." Given that "cruft" is an entirely subjective measure (one could argue that articles on high schools, for instance, are cruft, just to give one example), one person thinking an article constitutes cruft is not a reason for deletion. Rogue 9 07:37, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
- Rather weak keep The print references are a bit thin (the magazine listed appears to be a new one, though I have very little clue about Norwegian) an self-published books don't count. That said, they may weakly satisfy the notability. The article needs some old chainsaw love though. Perhaps AfD it again a little bit later? -- wwwwolf ( barks/ growls) 09:39, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep: The the article itself sites sources and asserts its notibility, it has more then two real reliable sources, it meets the relevent criteria for inclusion. ( Justyn 21:31, 14 February 2007 (UTC))
In response to NetOracle: You ask why do I classify the articles as "objective", yet deletion decisions "subjective"? The answer is simple. Wikipedia uses set criteria to assess objectivity in articles - criteria which the article under discussion certainly meet. Deletion (and even the motion to delete the article itself) is therefore subjective, by the standards of wikipedia. This blatant display of double standards is the reason that I felt compeeled to add my two pennorth', and the reason why I am very close to giving up on ever being able to treat wikipedia as being an objective, credible source.
You may or may not be aware of my meaning in my initial response to you. I am unsure, because you say things like "The articles you mentioned are far too long for an objective encyclopedia not associated with a specific form of pop culture, and probably shouldn't exist." as though this adds weight to your query regarding objectivity. In actual fact, you have merely repeated my setiments quite succinctly. You go on to say that you are trying to "apply encyclopedic standards to articles" such as this one. What I think you mean is that you are deleting articles entirely subjectively. Case in point: this article meets the required standards, and therefore in order to apply encyclopedic standards, one merely needs to clean up the style (not the content) of the article so that it may be brought into line. You say that "the community as a whole needs to develop standards for webcomic inclusion", yet instead of this, you are acting in an highly subjective manner by removing content before such standards have even been established.
You refer to "cruft". If "cruft" is the problem, then why not remove "cruft" from the article and ensure that it properly conforms to the required standard, then protect it. Surely a basic article giving objective and encyclopedically delivered facts is far better than a gap in the supposedly omniscient databank that many editors seem to regard wikipedia as?
I can only hope that the madness does not spread, or next any article that mentions God (or references another which mentions God) will be deleted for not having an ojective enough worldview, and being about entirely subjective worldviews (which is of course an entirely subjective opinion as God's existance can not at this point be proved or disproved, and any attempt to do either on the site would be frowned upon as "original thinking". If this happens, then who knows where it will end?
The pomposity and hypocrisy of those who would seek to control and/or limit the flow of information across the internet never ceases to astound me. Just as I think I have seen the worst example possible, another crops up that is ten times as bad (and often this is the case when one bad yet impassioned idea is raised in support of a previous and equally execrable idea).
TNUK 23:13, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 10:57, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Latino Muslims
- Delete This article is a complete waste of time.
I think the first thing we have to ask ourselves is whether Wikipedia is merely an indescriminate collection of information. I have no idea how "true" this information is, especially given the dubious sources (getting to that in a bit), but frankly what purpose does this information serve? It informs us that there are latino-muslims.
And that's it.
Huzzah! They exist! Couldn't we simply say that in one line in the latino thread when discussing demographics? "there are also a growing number of latino-muslims." Why is this any more "separate-entry worthy" than say, latino-sikhs? What information is being presented to us that makes latin-muslims noteworthy? Do they have a noticeably different culture, something syncretic perhaps? Have they accomplished anything recently? Have they faced some form of persecution perhaps?
Clearly from the information in this article the answers are no, no, no and no - Which at first I thought might mean there is just a development issue with this thread. But then I looked up latino-muslims online and found only the following: articles acknowledging their existance and lots of articles by muslim missionary groups arguing "You can be a latino and a muslim too!" and that's pretty much it.
The article really is utilizing the most information available, it's simply not anything worth noting! At least in this level of detail.
But let's take a look at the details. The glorious cultural contributions of latino muslims are... LADO, a defunct islamic missionary group, and "Alianza Islámica" which actually IS worth noting because of its civil rights impact in america (or so the article claims)!
Unfortunately Alianza Islámica is completely original research with ZERO sources and furthermore it is plaguerized directly from " http://www.hispanicmuslims.com/articles/ranksincreasing.html" which is yet another islamic missionary organization directly targeting latinos.
And there's the rub, this is all religious advocacy... all of the information in here is from islamic missionary organizations, utilized to push their latino agenda forward.
This links to nothing but unsourced plageurized articles, and the latino navbar, the information could easily be reported (without advertising islamic missionary groups) simply by adding a line about a growing number of muslims to the relevant demographics section of the latino thread. Consequently this article is not worthy of a separate thread, breaks the soapbox rule, and we lose nothing by axing it. -- Skyhawk4584 14:17, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. This article is a stub on an interesting topic. -- JuanMuslim 1m 04:15, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Weak Delete - I agree with the nom that the article mostly states the obvious, and provides too little info to merit a separate article. The Islamic missionary organisations may be notable (depending on their number of converts, coverage in external sources etc.) but no evidence is provided for this. Delete unless expanded by end of AfD. Walton monarchist89 17:10, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Undecided. This article is linked from Template:Latinos in the United States, along with Hispanics and religion (currently a redlink), Christian Latinos, and Latino Jews. Christian Latinos and Latino Jews are currently not much better written than Latino Muslims. All of these are potentially worthy of being quality articles, but for now they would need a lot of work to get up to that standard. -- Metropolitan90 18:08, 10 February 2007 (UTC)- Keep I consider a shame. However, see [44]. Upper estimates are 70,000-200,000 Hispanic Muslims. However, this is in the U.S. as far as I know. Middle Eastern sheikhs and clerics may have funnelled the oil money to build mosques.-- Patchouli 18:20, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Metropolitan, if you will notice there are actual cultural contributions to the latino identity that are associated with the jewish latino and catholic latino articles. The most obvious example being the influence of the Catholic Church in the latino identity. What impact have muslim latinos had on the latino identity? Anything more noteworthy than sikh-latinos? Why not articles for these insignificant sub identities as well? They offer nothing to the main article describing the latino ethnicity, just like this muslim-latino article, yet they do not have their own individual pages. Also, how can one ignore the obvious influence of islamic missionary groups, they are directly quoted and even advertised in the thread. Who cares if there are "dawah organizations," that's not information worth reporting.
On what basis do you say there is potential for a quality article here? It's simply reporting the existance of a subdemongraphic that have made absolutely no impact on the latino identity. They are a part of the identity, shearly because they exist - in which case they belong as a single line descriptor in the main article.
- Patchouli, Your vote shouldn't be controlled by whether you "like" such developments or what is fueling them clearly there are latino muslims this fact is not disputed nor do I believe it should go away, but you should be asking if this worth a full page thread, whether this is merely advertising islamic proselytism (numerous citations of islamic "dawa" organizations suggests this is so), and whether the information here presented is more appropriately described in a simple line or two on the main page.-- 67.163.191.97 22:28, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Keep The notability of Latino Muslims is dependent on the term Latino. The term is often misunderstood to mean Latin American and thus exclude people from Spain. I can elaborate upon request. This article can easily be expanded to become a good article. Someone asked on this AfD: "What impact have muslim latinos had on the latino identity?" This question should be answered in the article. Latino Muslims have impacted Latino architecture in a profound way. Please see Alhambra and Mezquita. Moreover, Islam has had an impact on Latino culture. An example of this is the impact it has had on the Spanish language. For example, the word Ojalá is derived from Arabic. To quote the BBC, "The etymology is quite interesting as it comes from the Arabic law šá lláh, meaning 'If Allah wishes'." Please see [45]. It is also important to recognize the impact of Islam in Spain, after all "Islam is the second largest religion in Spain". Agha Nader 00:26, 11 February 2007 (UTC)Agha Nader
- Your answer directly contradicts the term "Latino" which as defined by the article and minority groups is: "Latino (and the form Latina for females), as used in American English, refers to a United States national of Latin American origin. [1] It is borrowed from Spanish latino, shortened from latinoamericano. [2]" That is verbatim from the article. If you don't like this term, take it up with the main article, this is not the place to introduce your reformulation of the word.
- It is a US term for people from Latin America. Furthermore latino identity is not exclusive to any "home country" especially not Spain, for which the original term "hispanic" was thrown out because it was exclusive of south american countries that had no connection to Spain (ie Brazil, which was a portuguese colony).
- Alhambra, the Mezquita et cetera are valuable pieces of Spanish culture, to which Islam has contributed. Naturally this extension through the colony homeland (Spain) played an impact on the latino identity; however, that is already communicated by the fact the latino article acknowledges Spanish culture has played a heavy role in the latino identity - links from the spanish culture designations describe Islamic influence.
- Ergo there is no need to reiterate the obvious indirect impact, especially since it is "once removed." This thread is about "Latinos," which are a unique new-world specific syncretic culture in the Americas, incorporating Spanish, Portuguese, African, Carribean and native American culture to form this separate ethnicity. The question is, where have these muslim latinos (who as you and your articles acknowledge are new to Islam) made any contribution to the latino identity which is worth noting? We're not talking about inherited second hand influences from Old World Spain, but actual identifiable contributions of latino (per the definition)-muslims, here in the New World.
- There are ZERO. This article demonstrates absolutely no reason for why this subset of people is worth identifying as a separate article when we can just as easily incorporate the useful sources (if there are any) into a one line demographic report "there are a growing number of latino muslims." Rather than creating this elaborate article dedicated to informing us of all the recent trends in Islamic missionary groups.
- This is wikipedia, not wikidawah, religious groups need to backoff with the advertisement. -- - Skyhawk 04:13, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete. I am changing to a delete recommendation but not for the reasons cited by Skyhawk. The delete is based on the fact that of the four sentences of prose in this article, three are just statements of the obvious, devoid of content: "Latino Muslims are Latinos whose religion is Islam. Latino Muslims are also known as Hispanic Muslims. Latino Muslims live in various cities within the United States." If the article is improved before the AfD period is up, I may change my recommendation. -- Metropolitan90 18:33, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- According to the article: "Latino Muslims are Latinos whose religion is Islam. Latino Muslims are also known as Hispanic Muslims." Hispanic people include Spaniards. Agha Nader 22:15, 11 February 2007 (UTC)Agha Nader
- Please look at this map
As you can see, Spaniards are, indeed, Hispanic. I can see why you would be confused. After researching the term Latino, I found out there are many misconceptions about the term. Thus, I propose adding a few sentences clarifying the term Latino. The article already states that Latino Muslims are also known as Hispanic Muslims. Do you doubt that Spaniards are Hispanic?
Agha Nader 03:14, 12 February 2007 (UTC)Agha Nader
- Latino is New World, Spanish is Old World, Moorish is Ancient World
- Stop trying to pull Europeans into the picture, if you are European (as in Spanish), especially European 800 years before the New World was even discovered you are not latino. As the article clearly says the term "latino" is short for "latinoamericana," it is a new world designation, and an ethnicity according to the US census. If you come from Spain you are European, different ethnic designation - for good reason, as mentioned before Latino culture is unique to the New World, it is a new syncretic ethnicity, not an old world monolithic culture like Spanish culture. Hispanic and Spanish are mutually exclusive terms, to quote the wikipedia Hispanic entry "The term "Spanish" to denote a person from or of descent from a Latin American country is incorrect, as "Spanish" means a person who is from Spain."
- We already have an article detailing the accomplishments of the people who build Al Hambra and the Cathedral of Cordoba, and you can see that article by typing "Moor" into the search button to your left. They existed about 1300 to 600 years ago, in Europe, and never saw the New World. The present article we are discussing is an irrelevant subset of people within the much larger and far more significant syncretic New World Latino ethnicity. The people this article discusses have accomplished nothing more than merely existing which is not worth reporting - certainly not worth reporting as a full separate article. Wikipedia is simply not a listing of everything that exists in the world.
- You, everyone else and google have not produced any serious contribution to the Latino identity that latino-muslims have brought to the picture (and by serious contributions I do not mean "they set up organizations to proselytize Islam to muslims"). This article serves no other purpose than to further the agenda of "wikidawah." There is no information here, as metropolitan correctly noted out it says the same sentence four times - I suggest we just say it once, as a small insignificant rider to a demographics section "there are a growing number of latino muslims."
- Nor will there be any information here, every time it is pointed out that this thread is pointless those whose pet issue this is come running along to save it from the clutches of deletion by whining about how they have mountains of information and there is great potential and they will personally see to it that the article is expanded. And each time everybody just goes along with in and one week later all we have added one more line reiterating that there are muslim latinos. I'm curious what it will be this time if the AFD fails "Muslim Latino as mentioned before are Latinos who are Muslims, however it could be said with equal accuracy that they are Muslims who are Latino." -- - Skyhawk 01:47, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Agha Khan,
-from the wikipedia entry LatinoLatino (and the form Latina for females), as used in American English, refers to a United States national of Latin American origin. It is borrowed from Spanish latino, shortened from latinoamericano.
The term "Latino" refers to any person having Latin American background and is often taken to be a synonym with "Hispanic". However, while official use of the term Hispanic has its origins in the Census Bureau in the 1970s, activist groups such as MEChA, Crusade for Justice, Brown Berets, Black Berets, and the Young Lords often preferred the term Latino because they felt it is more inclusive of the broad range of peoples in Latin America.
The term "Latino" is typically understood by some to mean immigrants from Hispanophone countries in North, Central and South America and their U.S.-born descendants. It refers specifically to persons of Latin American origin.
'People from Spain self-categorize as latinos in the Spanish language, but in that case it means "Latin," rather than 'Latin American or 'US citizen or resident of Latin American origin' (a 'Latin American American', in other words), as the Spanish are one of the Latin peoples of Europe.
Clearly for your argument to be valid the entire definition of Latino in wikipedia needs to be changed. You're arguing something that is not being discussed here, the definition of "latino" used in this article is the group of people in the latino entry - which is exclusively New World. The Moors were not latinos.
Latinos origins are in "Latin America" - a place that did not exist at the time of the Moors. Ergo it is impossible to call Moors "Latinos."
Look at this map, it's the relevant one:
Just answer the question, what cultural significance are "latino muslims," what makes them worthy of their own separate entry aside from latino sikhs, latino-scientologists or latino-over the top football fans? Nothing. Furthermore what is the relevance of noting the existence "Latino Dawah Organizations?" This is just furthering the "wikidawah project." -- - Skyhawk 19:52, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Keep - Encyclopedia, interesting. Baka man 22:28, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete per Skyhawk. Do not confuse the scope of the title of this article with that of the Islam in Spain. Baristarim 00:58, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- The article states "Latino Muslims are also known as Hispanic Muslims." As you can see, Hispanics are included. And obviously Spaniards are Hispanic. There is further evidence of this. Please see [46]. This template is included in the article. The template clearly shows that Spanish Americans are Latino and are included in the template. Furthermore, Spaniards recognize themselves as Latino ("People from Spain self-categorize as Latinos in the Spanish language"). This is not to be confused with the term Latin American. Agha Nader 02:59, 13 February 2007 (UTC)Agha Nader
- Please note: The name of the article is not Latin American Muslims, it is Latino Muslims. Agha Nader 02:59, 13 February 2007 (UTC)Agha Nader
- The map user Skyhawk (a new user whose only experience is this AfD), has provided is of Latin America, and is thus irrelevant to our discussion. In contrast, the Hispanic American map is the one of issue. This is because the article states "Latino Muslims are also known as Hispanic Muslims." In fact, the article never uses the term Latin American Muslim. Agha Nader 02:59, 13 February 2007 (UTC)Agha Nader
"a new user whose only experience is this AfD" that's called an ad hom attack - it's a logical fallacy because it avoids the issue, something you've excelled at thusfar, and instead attacks the credibility of the person. The article doesn't say "latin american muslim" because it would be redundant, Latino = americans of latin american descent, not spaniards we have a fabulous word for people from spain "Spanish." You clearly have a problem with the wikipedia definition of latino, you said so in your first objection about how this is all just a small misunderstanding. Why don't you push your definition of latino in that thread? For the sake of consistency we must all accept the wikipedia definition of latino and debate the issue at hand - whether there is any point in identifying the existence of latino muslims.
Once again my question to you is what have latino muslims done of any consequence that requires a full dedicated thread?
User Bakasuprman, I agree it has an encyclopedic value - the question is this much? Is there any reason we can't include all the useful information in this thread (and advertising Muslim missionary groups is not "useful") in a one line acknowledgement that "there are a growing number of latino muslims" in a demographics section of the main latino article, describing the scope and bounds of the latino identity? As it stands the article says just that - four times. Several users have promised to upgrade the article every time its utility is challenged, and all have never followed up. There simply is nothing more to say than "they exist" and you don't need a full article for that.
I mean at least with the latinos and Christianity thread you can talk about the cultural significance of the Catholic Church in the latino identity, its impact on distinctly latin american cultural endeavors like santos in art, which synthesize native american idols and Catholic icon veneration - or any number of syncretic religions in Brazil that have popped up like condomble. That one makes obvious sense. And they are the achievements of Catholic latinos - not spanish latinos, or even more ludicrous moorish achievements, but rather the work of this distinctly new world group.
But latino muslims? What have they done that is worth noting other than forming a couple missionary orgs (LADO is defunct incidentally), and possibly formed an organization that had something to do with civil rights - except for the fact that tidbit of information is completely unsourced, the page it links to has zero sources at all and if you google it you find out it is plaguerized from the organization itself.
How many shades of shady would you say that is?
Supporters of this article have yet to show one iota of accomplishment or contribution to the latino identity, from latino-muslims and that is the crux of the issue - the difference between a one liner acknowledging they exist in the main article, or an entry with an indepth discussion on what their unique achievements are and why they are worth acknowledging. -- - Skyhawk 03:31, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
GASP I was wrong! This article does tell us something extremely valuable about the relevance of latino-muslims! They live in various cities in the United States!!
- Delete - No sources. Just using advocacy sites as references isn't enough. Please find an article by a WP:RS on the community of Latino Muslims and we have an article. - Merzbow 04:42, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete There are no reliable sources in this article, and this is just some POV garbage article used for propaganda. Honestly, some people will create an article on anything no matter how un-notable a topic it is. This clearly isn't a notable topic. The majority of people don't even know of the existance of Latino muslims, and they still number less than a million.-- Sefringle 04:59, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep per the precedent set by Christian Latinos and Latino Jews. ITAQALLAH 15:01, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete whats the point of such categorization? -- CltFn 12:44, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep per above. Some good demographics and topic is good to have some information about it. --- ALM 18:36, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Not to sound redundant but nobody is suggesting the demographic information disappear - rather it will be added to the main article as a one or two line statement instead of a full entry as a separate article. There is nothing artical worthy here, it doesn't meet the wikipedia requirements for notability and the discussion on muslim missionary groups is clear advocacy. Take these things away and you are confronted with the reality there is nothing being reported here except a link to an unsourced (yet still plaguerized) article and the same sentence restated four times. As already mentioned this doesn't meet the notability requirements ergo there is nothing else that can be said in this article - it is simply a waste of space at this time.--
- Skyhawk 02:25, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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The result was delete all - the club (and the copy-and-paste at Clonlost), the tournament ( International Youth Cup) as well as the players. - Daniel.Bryant 08:14, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Nitelink Rovers
Non-notable football team, probably in fact entirely fictional. Google returns only two hits; both of which are to Wikipedia. I am not sure if this meets the criteria for speedy deletion, so I'm listing it here instead.
I would also suggest that the articles on the 'players' the article links to be deleted on the same grounds. Stevefarrell 21:57, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of football (soccer) related deletions. Scottmsg 22:09, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete all - nonsensical.
Archibald99
22:21, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete all - just a load of bull. -- Mattythewhite 22:25, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete all - A hoax that even if it were true would not be notable. Scottmsg 22:59, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete all definitely a hoax. Please consider for deletion also International Youth Cup, David O'Sullivan-Kontoursis, and Clonlost, respectively the fake league, the fake manager and a duplicate of Nitelink Rovers. Please note how all these articles were created by the same user, Gizmo10. So I also propose to block him for vandalism, if possible. -- Angelo 01:11, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- do not wish to be offended by this but i feel i must defend myself. Nitelink Rovers is a football team affiliated with a youth club in Dublin Ireland. I am responsible for this youth club and run it along with other adults. The mentioned "coach" is another leader in the youth club who has qualifications from the FAI(football association of Ireland). We are an amateur youth club and the international youth club cup is what the group of teams refer to the tournament as. Our youth club is affiliated with the E.C.Y.D. and regnum Christi (see legionaires of Christ) who have a boarding school in Wicklow, Ireland known as Dublin Oak. The other teams are all teams of E.C.Y.D. Members from clubs in the country. The children in the youth club all use Wikipedia as a resource for their school work and asked that they could have themselves on the site. This article may not be of significant use to other members of the site but the children really enjoy being able to see themselves on the internet. As a user of Wikipedia for many years I am upset that other users are saying that i should be blocked as i have put nothing untruthful in any of the articles I have written. The only part of any article that could be deemed untrue is the inclusion of Eugene O'Connor and "Zippo" Nolan. These are two fathers who have done alot of work installing toilets and doing building work on the club and as a gesture of goodwill the children asked them to be included.
- I would like to hear from people regarding this issue as i feel it is highly unfair what is being said of myself and these articles.
- Gizmo10, aka. Aidan Dunne
- Then it isn't in the least bit notable enough for inclusion in Wikipedia. It's a youth club team. There are thousands of these throughout Ireland and the United Kingdom. I can think of ten in my own home town, which has a much smaller population than Dublin. Your youth club's football team is not notable. I'm sorry to break it to you, but it isn't. Please read WP:N and WP:NOT. There are also separate guidelines on what kinds of football teams are notable enough for inclusion on Wikipedia, but I forget where those are. This doesn't even nearly meet the criteria for notability. Sorry. -- Stevefarrell 15:04, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete all per nomination. Qwghlm 20:39, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete WP does not exist to give non-notable people a kick out of seeing themselves included. If the kids want to have an internet presence they should check out MySpace or something similar.....
ChrisTheDude 08:05, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- also Delete all the articles on the club's individual players, namely Shane Kearns, Aidan McCann, Odhran Mahar, Niall O'Cuilleanain, Peter Ryan Cosgrove, Luke Nolan, Morgan MacFhionnlaoich, Fionn Kelly, Seán O'Connor, Karl Rogers, Cormac Roche, Jason Cullen, Ryan Connolly, Richie Keely, David O'Sullivan-Kontoursis, Duane Dalton, Zippo Nolan and Eugene O'Connor....... ChrisTheDude 08:06, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Discus fish
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. - Daniel.Bryant 09:20, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Melbourne Revolution FC
- Melbourne Revolution FC ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD)
Non-notable minor football team. Articles linking from this page about players etc. should be deleted also.
Archibald99
23:59, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
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WikiProject Football's list of football (soccer) related deletions.
Archibald99
00:18, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. Scottmsg 02:42, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete. Social indoor soccer team in the Box Hill Indoor Soccer League in Melbourne. No claim to notability. Player articles should be deleted as well. May be case under A7 non-notable organisation. Capitalistroadster 03:32, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletions. -- Capitalistroadster 03:32, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete, in addition to being non-notable, it looks like most of the edits are by their "manager", Jonathan Menner. Lankiveil 04:05, 11 February 2007 (UTC).
- Delete -- nn. - Longhair\ talk 05:14, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- KEEPhello lads, this page shouldnt be deleted because it is set up so people can further learn more about us and who play for us i really dont see the need to delete it, you should maybe spend some time making your own or something before you see the need to go and ask someone elses to be deleted, is it hurting anyone? do you also want me to delete our myspace because were not important enough? all the stats are right all the facts are right, who really cares 19:02, 11 February 2007 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.107.48.211 ( talk • contribs)
- Comment The above purposes would be much better met by a webpage published by yourself rather than a page on an encyclopaedia. Orderinchaos78 08:51, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- KEEP The page is up to and it is providing correct details for anyone who needs to know about indoor football —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.239.223.209 ( talk) 12:32, 11 February 2007 (UTC).
- KEEP I dont feel it is necessary to delete this page as it is providing facts not fiction. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.214.14.160 ( talk • contribs) — 203.214.14.160 ( talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Delete Unless the anons here can show otherwise, this is an article about a non-notable sports team. NeoChaosX ( talk, walk) 08:34, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
KEEPi really dont see what the problem is with this :S —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.107.48.211 ( talk) 08:59, 11 February 2007 (UTC).- Delete not notable.-- cj | talk 10:12, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- DElete - division 3 indoor team says it all. - Peripitus (Talk) 10:24, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete unless some notability can be established. A less than year old mates team doesn't cut it. Nuttah68 10:26, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete Division 3 indoor soccer team? Not notable enough. -- Canley 11:43, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete Not even close to being notable enough for inclusion. Ignore the votes to 'keep' from sockpuppets of the page's creator. -- Stevefarrell 12:45, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- KEEP This club although small has had hundreds of adds from people all over the world on its myspace it is followed in england and scotland by a keen few fans, this wikipedia is so that these fans can look into further statistics and further analysis of the club , all stats and facts are 100% true, i see no reason to delete this page —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Johnnybhoy22 ( talk • contribs) 13:34, 11 February 2007 (UTC).
- Speedy delete Recreational team. Already had a db-template, but it was removed by the article starter. Julius Sahara 16:54, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. -- Edcolins 17:13, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination and WP:CORP. Qwghlm 20:42, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep you people need to get out more, and actually the speedy delete was not deleted by the page creator smart ass, the page was taken off the speedy delete list —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Johnnybhoy22 ( talk • contribs) 00:24, 12 February 2007 (UTC).
- KEEP the fact that this page is of importance both interstate and internationally gives it suitable grounds for being kept on, the idea of the site is to provide pages relevant to what people want and are interested in, and obviously this fits that criteria — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.164.134.249 ( talk • contribs) — 58.164.134.249 ( talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Delete as a non-notable team (along with the linked player articles). The various keep !voters offer no significant argument other than "this is true" and "I find it useful", which are not valid reasons to keep an article ChrisTheDude 08:11, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete - if individual players make it to a higher league, they could well become notable enough to have an article. This fails on the same grounds as local councillors not being notable enough to have articles (despite their state parliamentary counterparts having them). Orderinchaos78 08:42, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- The club has fans internationaly it maybe a small supporter base but atleast we have one we have fans in other states in australia aswell, doesnt this mean that we are not some social club? which we are not — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnnybhoy22 ( talk • contribs)
- Delete. That's nice, a myspace page for a reference. YechielMan 23:14, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
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