Main case page ( Talk) — Evidence ( Talk) — Workshop ( Talk) — Proposed decision ( Talk) Case clerks: KnightLago ( Talk) & Manning Bartlett ( Talk) Drafting arbitrators: Coren ( Talk) & Newyorkbrad ( Talk) |
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![]() | Important — please note
The Committee, in passing the motion to open this case, provided explicit direction to all editors participating in this case:
The Clerk for this case is KnightLago ( talk · contribs) who will be assisted by non-recused members of the Clerk team in enforcing the above rules. The Clerks will, wherever it deems necessary, refactor and remove statements where they violate the above directions, or where they violate the general standards of decorum and Wikipedia policies. The Clerks will, where required for particular egregious or repetitive violations, ban participants from the case pages for an appropriate period of time. Both the refactoring of statements, and case page bans, that are implemented by the Clerks, can be appealed to the Committee. If any user requires assistance in submitting private evidence to the Arbitrators in the method requested by Committee (see the second bullet point, above), please contact a member of the Clerks or, alternatively, an Arbitrator directly. — User:KnightLago ( talk) 02:17, 2 October 2009 (UTC) |
![]() | Given the exceptional nature of the case (insofar as it centers on the alleged contents of a private mailing list), the normal workshop format is not appropriate. This page will be used by the drafting arbitrator ( Coren), or other arbitrators as required, to post redacted summaries of privately submitted evidence when appropriate and to ask questions to the participants in a format closer to that of an inquest. Please refrain from responding directly to statements made by others; this page is not appropriate for threaded discussion and such comments will be refactored. The prohibition against posting private information remains in force here. When in doubt, submit evidence to the committee directly. |
Proposals for injunctions have been placed on the proposed decision page for voting; and the discussion suggesting them has been moved to the talk page. — Coren (talk) 01:17, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Do you claim that the list archive submitted to ArbCom was falsified? Have you received a copy yet? Jehochman Talk 09:15, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Future Perfect at Sunrise ( talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA), a named party to this case, utilized sysop tools to unblock another party, Tymek ( talk · contribs), over my objection. I had blocked Tymek as an apparently compromised account, or else as a disruptive account falsely claiming to be compromised. At the time I asked the Committee to consider the matter. Neither I nor FPaS has Checkuser access, whereas most members of the Committee do. In the block notice I specifically asked that the account not be unblocked without my consent, or else the consent of a Checkuser or ArbCom member. I consider FPaS action to be a serious violation of Wikipedia:Administrators. FPaS could have easily requested a clerk to perform the unblock if an unblock were needed. FPaS posted this message to my talk page upon performing the disputed sysop action. I request the FPaS be directed not to perform any further sysop actions on other parties to this case. I also request that the Committee respond to my message of September 16 so that I can understand whether you have looked into the matter of Tymek being a compromised account. FPaS seems to be concerned that you may have dropped the ball on that issue. I am also concerned. Jehochman Talk 01:57, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
To make things clear, the Committee did — and will continue to — examine the list of email that has been received for potential serious violations of Wikipedia rules. In particular, hounding, meatpuppetry and disruptively gaming the rules are all activities that are forbidden and destructive and that can (and usually are) made possible by coordination off-wiki.
In doing so, we are proceeding under a number of (rebuttable) presumptions: that the mail archive has not been fabricated, that most email within the archive have not been altered or falsified, and that completeness of that archive is unknown. Insofar as information in the emails correctly matches verifiable events on-wiki, they can be presumed to be authentic. Evidence otherwise is welcome and solicited, in particular from the participants of the mailing list.
There have been objections to the use of the archive entirely based on the allegation that it has been acquired through illegal or unethical means. It is to be noted that [a link to] the archive has been received independently by a number of editors, none of whom are alleged to have stolen it, who then forwarded it to the Arbitration Committee. Claims that it has been obtained improperly by the original sender are unsubstantiated, and unverifiable by the committee. Other alternatives are equally likely (that it was transmitted willingly by a member of the list or that it was leaked accidentally then forwarded by an unknown third party for instance) and investigating the issue is neither possible, nor within the Committee's remit.
At any rate, even if one ignored the obvious fact that criminal rules of evidence do not apply to the Committee the original provenance of the email archive is entirely moot: the Committee is not bound by an exclusionary rule in the first place. Even if the allegations of the mailing list archive having been taken illegally by an outsider "hacking" were correct, they lie entirely outside the jurisdiction and reach of the Committee, and have no bearing on the propriety of using it.
— Coren (talk) 18:28, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
I believe that much of the problem would be solved if we had a general prohibition on admins using their tools in ethnic disputes when those admins closely identify with one side of the ethnic dispute. Ethnic issues have probably the longest history of dispute, right back to Gdanzig and beyond, and I think that any administrative action should be strictly at arms length for these articles. I don't see how Piotrus, for example, can ever be perceived as an honest broker by the opposing side in these disputes - however carefully he might weigh the neutrality of every action, the mere fact of his involvement will be inflammatory to a deeply entrenched opposing camp - muc more so than would be the case with, say, William and climate change articles, where there is at least an objective standard by which to judge the issue. In many ethnic disputes there never can be an objective single value of truth, which is why they are so intractable. Guy ( Help!) 16:38, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
I believe that the Committee should adopt a policy that would inform parties presenting evidence to the ArbCom that they have no right to share private information that is not theirs without permission from other parties whose private information is being shared, and that the Committee will not accept such evidence. The Committee should also adopt a policy that it will not accept evidence obtained by illegal or unethical means (such as, but not limited to, hacking somebody's computer). This should substantially discourage parties from attempting to violate other editors' privacy, and from other illegal actions such as hacking. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 21:19, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Due to the fact that the case involves off-Wiki material that has been collected and possibly altered in an unknown manner and then disseminated with and without permission of the affected parties, issues of Wikipedia editor’s privacy, on and off Wiki, play a central, and unprecedented role in this case, in addition to the topics discussed on the mailing list or the nationalities or places of residence of its members.
As a result the case shall be renamed to “Eastern European Mailing List and Privacy Issues”.
Proposed by radek ( talk) 22:23, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Alex Bakharev is immediately temporarily desysopped.
User:Alex Bakharev, one of the administrators who received the email from Tymek's compromised acocunt with the supposed "evidence", despite the uncertain legal status of this material shared it with other Wikipedia users, notably User:Deacon_of_Pndapetzim. He did this despite being previously asked, in a specific and clear manner, more than once, not to share the information [1] [2], as it contained personal and private data about several Wikipedia users, including their real names, occupations and families. This was a clear violation of Wikipedia policy on outing.
As a result of showing bad judgment Alex Bakharev, for the duration of the ArbCom case shall be desysopped and his administrative privileges revoked, pending complete investigation and conclusion of this case.
Proposed by radek ( talk) 03:49, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
At Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern_European_mailing_list/Proposed_decision#Russavia NewYorkBrad suggested that I make a proposal on editing restrictions. As this Arbcom is partly centred around the topic of Soviet/Russian/succesor states history in relation to the history of the Baltic States, Poland and Romania, I feel that a fair proposal would be the temporary ban of myself, and all editors named as being on this email list, from editing articles relating to the history of the Soviet Union/Russia/successor states (including the Baltics), Poland and Romania, where the history is based upon any one of the named states interactions with any of the other named states, e.g. Soviet-Polish history, Polish-Ukrainian history, Russian-Estonian, Romanian-Moldovan history, etc. This would allow editing to continue by all editors in areas which are not related to this area of dispute, and where there is likely productive work going on, and for the duration of these proceedings. -- Russavia Dialogue 06:39, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
Based on the comments and activity of Deacon of Pndapetzim ( talk · contribs) I think it is obvious he consider himself a party to this case, and as such should be added to it.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 16:21, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
Would the list administrator agree to let somebody inspect the archives? In real life I occasionally serve as an expert witness and get to peruse through people's highly private (trade secret) data and give my opinions to the court. If you don't trust me, would you trust somebody else to examine the archives and tell ArbCom whether there were nefarious activities going on, or not? Jehochman Talk 22:38, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia is a project based mostly on anonymous contributions. Each writer's privacy is protected unless they choose to reveal their identity themselves. Posting another person's personal information, or external links to such information on Wikipedia oneself (i.e.: the link to the aforementioned mailing list archive), is harassment. Privacy violations include previously undisclosed real life names, IP addresses, email addresses etc. as per our Wikipedia:Harassment policy.
Personal information delivered by undisclosed users via Wikimedia servers such as the legal names of their content opponents, home or workplace addresses, telephone numbers, and other contact information is subject to disciplinary sanctions. Thus, according to Wikipedia guiding policies the above attempted outing becomes grounds for an immediate block. That’s why the Arbitration Committee must take all necessary steps to trace the user who carried out the outing, and act accordingly.
Users need not worry about accidentally damaging Wikipedia when adding or improving information, as other editors are always around to advise or correct obvious errors. Unless proven as misleading and malicious on purpose, the contributions provided by the group of Wikipedians connected by the above discussion forum shall be considered valuable to the project, knowledgeable and positive in spirit. Similarly, there’s nothing wrong with discussing the project by small interest groups outside Wikipedia for as long as no relevant action to the detriment of this project has been taken.
Wikipedia is written collaboratively, and requires cooperation among users leading to consensus. If anybody wishes to express doubts about the conduct of the above involved parties, then please substantiate those doubts with specific diffs and other relevant evidence drawn from Wikipedia and not from their personal correspondence acquired through illegal and/or unethical means. Although conduct may be assumed due to personal views, it is usually best to address it without mentioning motives, because you have them too (which would tend to exacerbate resentments all around). -- Poeticbent talk 22:17, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Proposed principles: Enforce WP:NPOV & WP:YESPOV , lets say by enforcing splitting-up the controversial articles into relevant sections describing the opposing viewpoints one by one instead of letting editors battle over the truth. Unless someone wants to return to similar ArbCom cases in the future, there is no other way to solve this 'cold information edit war' between the Eastern European 'nationalists' and Russian/Soviet 'imperilaists' (-broadly defined) on Wikipedia I think. WP:NPOV & WP:YESPOV needs to be enforced, otherwise nothing is going to be solved in the territory of EE with this another ArbCom case either I'm afraid. There are a number of editors under editing restrictions/banned/etc. already. Has anything changed? No. Only if Wikiedia rules change on controversial subjects, only then there might be a light in the end of this tunnel.-- Termer ( talk) 02:35, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
It looks like multiple users were driven out from Wikipedia by members of the team. They stopped editing to avoid further attacks (like Ghirlandajo) or were blocked (like me) through the efforts of the team. Most of them do not know about opening of this case and have no chance to present their evidence here. I myself noticed this case almost accidentally several days after it was opened. My proposal is that this editors should be:
DonaldDuck ( talk) 03:28, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
This is ridiculous. Petri Krohn got himself banned (twice!) for making threats and other disruptive behavior and the bans were imposed by neutral administrators with support from editors and admins not related to this case. Similar situation describes DD (17 reverts!) and others. This case isn't a COATRACK where every kind of grievance can be aired and everyone who has ever been restricted/reprimanded/banned/blocked/admonished gets to pretend that they never did anything wrong when they clearly did. In fact, that kind of attempts at abusing what this case is supposed to be about, should itself lead to reprimands and potential restrictions. radek ( talk) 07:27, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Premise 1: Generally, an article that has been "peer"-reviewed and achieved A-class of GA-class status is unlikely to generate edit wars or inflaming discussions. The reviewing process itself, even when it does not notably increase the size of an article, has tremendous potential to eliminate many (even potential, yet unsurfaced) points of contention.
Premise 2: Although it is a social phenomenon, Wikipedia is ultimately about content, not editors.
Proposal based on these premises: After this ArbCom case would be concluded, to set up a volunteer team of editors (or a mini-project), which, or under the supervision of which, a number of articles would be developed, and "peer"-reviewed, possibly or preferably by several independent editors in parallel. ArbCom would place a number of articles it deems worth trying this path into a (hidden, i.e. which doesn't show up) category. (My guess there would be around 20 such articles, but don't believe my guess.) There could be set up a procedure by which the coordinator of this mini-project could admit further articles into this category (in case this would be a success and there would be desire to enlarge the pool of articles). The procedure for removing an article from the category would have to involve a vote of the ArbCom. (The ArbCom would not validate in any way the content - absolutely not! b/c that would go against the basics of WP - but could conclude based on a report from the coordinator of this mini-project that satisfactory progress has been achieved on that article. For example, if it became GA-class, that would be - I would say - satisfactory.) Put otherwise, for an article to (re-)enter the category should be much easier than to leave it. Dc76\ talk 12:36, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
Every member of the mailing list has given approval for me to review their list correspondence. See User:Piotrus/ArbCom. Molobo signed at his user talk because of his block and Digwuren emailed approval because he no longer edits. List members will be supplying their correspondence records to me. Would the Committee please send me its copy of the list for comparison? I plan to prepare a detailed report. Collaborative input from the Committee would be welcome in this endeavor. Durova 320 20:13, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
I have a special request for you, Durova, with regard to your investigation. When comparing the illegal archive with the genuine list of exchanged emails, please pay special attention to messages that have been deleted by the whistleblower in an attempt to cover his own tracks. This would be important for the future, as possible proof of an attempted outing. Besides, you can’t get anymore genuine than that in your search for evidence tampering. -- Poeticbent talk 23:28, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
After discussion, the committee has decided that it was best that no exception be made to our internal policy of not further forwarding private or sensitive communications that have reached us. The mailing list archive includes amongst other things copies of correspondence that may have been forwarded or copied to the mailing list without clear authorization, and further dissemination is not appropriate. — Coren (talk) 18:14, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Look: I'm trying to keep this communication as transparent as possible. If side discussions derail things to the point where the arbitrators miss something important then matters will be harder on everyone. The best faith interpretation of Coren's and Risker's posts is that the Committee mistakenly supposed I've requested an exception to their privacy policy. I haven't requested any exception. If hurdles remain there are two possible workarounds:
I will be moving ahead after the start of UTC time tomorrow. If that progress occurs without the Committee's cooperation then I will pursue the second option and cull non-member material (the first option is unavailable since I do not know the names of any people who may be affected that way). Durova 320 03:13, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Durova, I would be very interested in your answers to the questions Bigtimepeace has proposed, most especially to the third one. In any comparison of the archive to so-called original emails, the possibility of tampering with the originals must be considered. If you do find any differences and have not controlled for the possibility of tampering then the reliability of any conclusions you might seek to draw will be undermined. EdChem ( talk) 17:12, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
This is just one of many proofs that despite lot of bad faith floating around editors involved in this case can still try to understand one another and cooperatively work together. Of course, the addition of private and sometimes offensive correspondence now made semi-public into the mix is not going to help, although I believe that there is evidence in the same correspondence that shows willingness to extend a hand and work to bridge the gaps. Nonetheless the fact remains that this was hard if not impossible to do for many months (if not years).
I'd like, therefore, to propose that the Committee considers a remedy that would involve close mediation and/or mentorship between various parties here, aiming at restoring good faith through discussion and work on articles that both parties find agreeable and helpful in building good trust (I am sure that if we look hard enough there are some mutually agreeable articles to cooperatively develop in every field, such as Russian-Estonian relations and so on). I do believe that most parties here share the goal of building a neutral, reliable encyclopedia. Developing ways to harness that common goal, and reducing bad faith that developed for various reasons, seems like "the right thing to do". And if we can turn this mess into something that will help the project, this will be truly and ArbCom case to remember :) -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:48, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
Piotrus, can you give me a single example of any of the emails which, in your words, "shows willingness to extend a hand and work to bridge the gaps" between list members and myself? All I see is discussing of how much of an enemy I am, a shedload of emails stating that I am the #1 target of your list, yourself posting threads in order for harrassment against me to snowball and continue. I wish I could believe what you write above, but call me cycnical. If you are able to show me a single email in relation to myself that covers what you say, I will eat my hat, and if you can show me three, I will support your proposal wholeheartedly. Additionally, if the Arbcom finds that stalking and harrassment of editors has taken place, that the victims' participation in any such mediation must be completely voluntary on that editor's part; otherwise it is akin to forcing a rape victim to go to counselling with her rapist. -- Russavia Dialogue 21:28, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
This was proposed by Irpen at Piotrus' last Arbcom [5]. Skäpperöd ( talk) 21:48, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
Copied here by Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 21:14, 23 September 2009 (UTC) from here
User:Molobo, one of the list members, was blocked for supposed sock-puppeting [6] (in an investigation involving "secret evidence" that may or may not be related to the present case). I propose that he is temporarily unblocked for the purpose of participating in this case, making his statement and so on. Of course, he'd be banned from editing articles not related to this case, although I think he should also be allowed to make an edit here [7]. radek ( talk) 04:14, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
User Piotrus today made revert on Polonization article violating his topic ban - [8] and 1RR imposed on him. Please compare with previous version before my edits to assure yourself that this is revert [9]. Again he adds nothing to content but edit wars.
He also added this [10].
Per [11], he violated his topic ban. Vlad fedorov ( talk) 17:04, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
There was a reason Vlad fedorov ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was banned for a year. Edit warring and extreme POV-pushing are a major part of it. Trying to abuse wiki dispute resolution was a factor, too. All nicely present above. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:22, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Speaking as a recused individual, the reference topic ban did not pass and was rejected by a wide majority of arbcom, therefore there is not topic ban in existence and Piotus could not have violated a non-existent ban. MBisanz talk 17:28, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm not going to speculate on the rightful fate of Piotrus and co because I still have enough faith (just) in Wikipeda and the Arbcom to know they will be banned. However, when this case eventually reaches its conclusions and decisions I think the Wikipedia community is entitled to a firm and decisive statement than no Arb was aware of the mailing list's existence prior to Alex's notification. If this is not possible, I suspect certain Arbs knew of it, we need an expanation as to why the situation was allowed to continue. Also, it is essential that all blocks, concerned with Eastern European subjects, performed by Sandstein are examined and their worthiness scrutenised. Without such assurances then this case wil never die. Giano ( talk) 17:49, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
I've posted the proposed principles early to help guide the collection of evidence and discussion. I do not expect that any findings of fact or remedies will be posted for a few weeks still, since more evidence (and examination of that evidence) is likely to be forthcoming.
Those principles, however, should give a good idea of what the Committee will be looking at in the weeks to come; and some of my colleagues may well propose a few more until then. — Coren (talk) 19:52, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Inspired by comments both here and elsewhere, I would like to direct editors attention to the inactive (for all instances and purposes) Wikipedia:WikiProject Eastern Europe. In particular, I've created Wikipedia:WikiProject Eastern Europe/Noticeboard where interested editors can list articles, disputes, votes and so on to officially canvass for community's attention (and everyone is welcome to watchlist it). The current page is just a draft; I'd like to invite all parties to sign up for the project, help design the tools we need and of course, help keep the project active. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 02:27, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Alex Bakharev proposed something similar at Piotrus' last arbcom [13]. Back then, Piotrus rejected the idea [14]. This Arbcom actually is about what he did instead, and I guess the FoFs will make most editors sceptical of the benefits of an EE board created and joined by Piotrus. Skäpperöd ( talk) 21:42, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
Some differences are just irreconcilable. Consider an article on Occupation of the Baltic states. For starters it lacked details on the historic background, namely being part of Russian empire, and short period of independence under British protection. Second, there is a difference between the terms annexation and occupation and yet one of the debatable POVs was put into the title, the other was merely mentioned in passing and heavily criticized. Third, in 1944-45 Allies liberated Europe from Nazis, not occupied it. (I remember there was even a deleted article on Allied occupation of Europe, I wonder why it was deleted...). Yet in case of Baltic states that episode was called re-occupation. I thought of rewriting the article (see what what I mean, but quickly gave up facing heavy nationalistic resistance. If the project/notice board will start up, I will bring this situation over "occupation of Europe by Nazis and Soviet Union" up for discussion, and I just wonder how a qualified mediator such as Vassyana might resolve this conflict. ( Igny ( talk) 02:12, 28 September 2009 (UTC))
I was gonna reply to Vassyana that I can see some reconciliation going on, particularly with people like Igny or Paul Siebert, who though I disagree with strongly I have acquired a good bit of respect in the past few weeks (and hell, if Igny was running for admin right now, I'd support him). I was also going to say that I can also see some reconciliation with folks like Russavia, mostly because whatever else, I respect dedicated content creation, but after that last comment where he compared the list participants to gang rapists (and people wonder how this guy got banned for incivility!) I don't see how that is possible. radek ( talk) 06:40, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
Both the opening motion and the injunction about to be passing prohibit inflammatory speculation about the case, explicitely labeling it as disruption in the latter case. Despite this, GiacomoReturned ( talk · contribs) has seen fit to make ominous-sounding comments, including on pages that are part of this case, that appear intended to imply a material involvement of me in this affair ( [16], [17], [18], [19], [20]). For these reasons, I respectfully request that GiacomoReturned be added to the parties to the case and that the Committee or a clerk take the steps required to prevent continued disruption of this sort.
Also, because I remain (for reasons unclear to me) named as a party to the case and have also been named in the ANI thread causing this case to be opened, I respectfully request that the final decision include findings of fact cleary reflecting my level of involvement with any offwiki coordination that may have been going on (i.e., no involvement whatsoever), and whether I was manipulated in any way through offwiki coordination to take administrative action. Although I can't currently think of any situation in which the latter might have been the case, I would appreciate being informed of any potential cases of manipulation so that I can reconsider the administrative action at issue. Sandstein 06:11, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Sandstein, for someone who claims to be uninvolved as far as Giano is concerned - uninvolved enough to block for a week only days ago - you are now sounding like you have an on-going issue with him. Perhaps you should re-evaluate your claims of being impartial in blocking him while you were both connected with this case? EdChem ( talk) 17:20, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Those proceedings are very deprived of good faith (on all sides), yet this project cannot function without this crucial ingredient. I am willing to assume good faith about anybody (even if I lost it in the past) and work, collaboratively with them, on an article they select. Although I have a huge ( public) log of articles I want to work on, I am willing, in an effort to show good faith and rebuild trust, to work with any editor here and apply my considerable experience in content creation to improving an article they are interested in and working on. It is my hope that by working together to create content we can rebuild the trust and good faith that got lost along the way - and help the project in its primary mission, creating encyclopedic content. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 16:36, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
There is this [22] that could either be used itself, or serve as a template (full disclosure: I wasn't the first to notice it). Of course there needs to be two sides to something like that and Russavia would need to stop making offensive, uncivil, remarks comparing list members to rapists. radek ( talk) 19:58, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
This is nauseating. You haven't even apologized to Russavia or any of the other editors who your group terrorized, you're still in complete denial about the damage you've caused to wikipedia, some of you actually have the nerve to suggest the cabal was a positive thing, yet you're already taking for granted the idea that you'll still be editing here in the near future? Maybe you should start thinking about begging the community to forgive you, and dealing with whatever punishment you're dealt with a giant smile on your face, still without ever the assumption that anyone will be able to take you in good faith if you ever do return to editing. LokiiT ( talk) 01:54, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
How about we start this discussion all over again, this time ignoring the personalities of the responders and rather focusing on the content of Piotrus' post? For the record, both Giano's history and also LokiiT's history are irrelevant when discussing Piotrus' proposal. Daniel ( talk) 03:17, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
Piotrus posted on my talk page, and as this is basically the same message, I will post my reply here.
Piotrus, first off, know that I am only unblocked at the present time so that I can participate in the current Arbcom proceedings. Other than that, I remain under a complete indef block, and even if I was not indef blocked, I would be unable to edit any such article, as I have been placed under a topic ban by User:Sandstein whereby for the next six months I am banned from editing anything broadly construed relating to the Soviet Union, its successor states, including the Baltic States, Russia or Russian people. So much so, I would even be unable to insert this photo into the Hugo Chavez article, and so much so that there is absolutely nothing else that I am able to edit on WP, as I have absolutely zero interest in shit like Pokemon, or the rest of the pop culture rubbish that tends to dominate this project. I have requested an official lifting of the indef block, but it seems that admins there want to await the conclusion of the Arb case; but it is entirely unlikely that the Arbcom will address this issue in the case, therefore I will likely remain under indef block for the duration of the case, which may take months given the amount of evidence and other issues. So I am not able to take you up on this so long as any bans on me are in place.
Secondly, and this is the most important part in relation to your message.
I am a productive editor, and I realise that we are here to help build an encyclopaedia, and this is supposed to be done in a collegial environment. And I simply want to be able to do that in peace. I do not want any battleground conditions, and have always said it would be great to get rid of the utter bullshit in this area of editing. Whilst we all have our own opinions, and I have even on occasion expressed my personal opinion on issues on talk pages, my edits in mainspace are always meticulously sourced, and done from as neutral POV as is humanly possible, and I always try to provide all sides of an issue when creating articles. The reason that many people may see me as pro-Putin is that often I see articles and it is missing a major POV, and often this is done deliberately by editors when articles are created, as they are here to engage in advocacy. Very few articles I have written require editors to come in and add tons of POV, as I try to ensure that all POV is covered from the very beginning.
Since November/December 2008, I have basically been the target of a systematic campaign of stalking and harrassment, and this campaign was widely discussed on your email list -- 10% of emails deal with myself in some way - more than other subject -- discussions which took place included stalking my edits, teaming up on myself, harrassment, etc, and some of this also included actual admissions by list members in ways to get me to be incivil in order to report me. I have known that I have been stalked and harrassed by certain members for the last 10 months -- WP is literally plastered with my pleadings for assistance in helping to deal with what I knew was going on, but nothing was ever done (and the community itself needs to take some responsibility for that). Because of the consistency and veracity of the harrassment from certain editors, I have lost my cool on occasion and lashed out, and as the stalking and harrassment has increased, so at times has my incivility. So bad has it been, that I have considered walking away from the project altogether on numerous occasions. But you know what, I still believe the project has a purpose and has some potential, and participating here is worth it. But I can tell you, that the harrassment is not worth it at all. And because of the length and nature of the harrassment that has taken place upon myself, whilst it is still not OK for me to lash out, it is an obvious reaction when one has been harrassed such as I have been.
So you can imagine my surprise in April of this year, when I stumbled across by pure chance that thread started by yourself on AN/I in regard to myself. And this was done after Biophys had sent emails to your list, and he even gave you links to User_talk:Tiptoety/Archive_19#Inappropriate_use_of_account.3F and User_talk:Russavia/Archive_6#Want_to_run_a_checkuser_on_me.3F_Well_read_on......, where you can see that this had already been addressed, and that it was considered by several users other than myself to be harrassment. But yet you posted it anyway, in what can only be considered as continuation of that harrassment on myself. At the time, I thought it a little too convenient that this subject should be raised on AN/I, and the only person to post was Biophys, hence why I asked you the questions I did.
This is just one incident of many involving the harrassment of myself by editors, but it is also the one incident that for some months has made me want to go off at you, although I haven't, because one would think that an admin who is supposedly a trusted member of the community would be party to such a thing. It was the stated intent of several editors on the list to make my wiki time absolute hell. And they succeeded, and you were an integral part of that. It wasn't simply a case of me being discussed on the list a few times, and we all know that.
I am an adult, and I live in the real world and I was brought up with the value system that people need to take responsibility for their actions. This is why I take responsibility for my actions, and if I have been uncivil to others, I sincerely apologise. And I will cop any fair punishment on the chin. Although with the latest drama, I did lash out afterwards, and I was a bit of a prick to Sandstein, and I apologise for that. But being an adult and living in the real world, I also expect others to admit their wrongs, because the only way that any reconciliation can take place is for past wrongs to be admitted and explained. This is something that I have had to go thru myself in the real world on occasion, by swallowing my own pride and coming to terms with events that had occurred. And I see no reason why WP should be any different.
It is fine that you wish to look forward, but I am sorry, I can not be a part of that so long as there is no acknowledgement or explanation by a single one of you in relation to what I have been put through the last 10 months, and there seems to be absolutely zero remorse at all. -- Russavia Dialogue 10:09, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
I have just read in the latest WP signpost at Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2009-09-28/Arbitration_report:
Standard workshop procedures appear to have been suspended for the case, so normal drafting of proposals by the parties and other editors is not taking place; a draft decision is to be written by arbitrators Coren and Newyorkbrad, but no date for it has been announced.
Can I be so bold as to ask why normal drafting of proposals by parties to the case and other editors is not taking place in this instance? I am sorry if this has been answered elsewhere, but I can't find any explanation for this in the case pages; maybe I am simply missing it? -- Russavia Dialogue 19:08, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
Though this will not be in the format of support/oppose/etc, but discussion. — Coren (talk) 20:40, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
There already exists a Digwuren sanction board for reported users where they are subject to 1 Revert restriction per day. From my experience limiting the revert limit leads to more discussions and more quality work on articles, that expand content. It could be useful to expand this over all politically related Central and Eastern European topics.
A big problem is lack of civility on the Wikipedia discussions. It would be good to reinstate WP:CIV and enforce it.
They are several works that I believe I could work with Russavia and Russian users with in order to reconcillate. For example:
-- Molobo ( talk) 11:36, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
I think that various parties, myself included, should consider adopting various restrictions, to show the community (and other parties) that they acknowledge they have made mistakes and to atone for them they will take actions to ensure their editing falls not only withing standards of what is required of an editor, but exceeds those standards.
As far as my actions are concerned, and with regards to evidence provided, I acknowledge that:
Further:
I will happily work with the Committee to refine the above if such a need arises.
I hope that other parties will follow with similar pledges. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 02:39, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
Main case page ( Talk) — Evidence ( Talk) — Workshop ( Talk) — Proposed decision ( Talk) Case clerks: KnightLago ( Talk) & Manning Bartlett ( Talk) Drafting arbitrators: Coren ( Talk) & Newyorkbrad ( Talk) |
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![]() | Important — please note
The Committee, in passing the motion to open this case, provided explicit direction to all editors participating in this case:
The Clerk for this case is KnightLago ( talk · contribs) who will be assisted by non-recused members of the Clerk team in enforcing the above rules. The Clerks will, wherever it deems necessary, refactor and remove statements where they violate the above directions, or where they violate the general standards of decorum and Wikipedia policies. The Clerks will, where required for particular egregious or repetitive violations, ban participants from the case pages for an appropriate period of time. Both the refactoring of statements, and case page bans, that are implemented by the Clerks, can be appealed to the Committee. If any user requires assistance in submitting private evidence to the Arbitrators in the method requested by Committee (see the second bullet point, above), please contact a member of the Clerks or, alternatively, an Arbitrator directly. — User:KnightLago ( talk) 02:17, 2 October 2009 (UTC) |
![]() | Given the exceptional nature of the case (insofar as it centers on the alleged contents of a private mailing list), the normal workshop format is not appropriate. This page will be used by the drafting arbitrator ( Coren), or other arbitrators as required, to post redacted summaries of privately submitted evidence when appropriate and to ask questions to the participants in a format closer to that of an inquest. Please refrain from responding directly to statements made by others; this page is not appropriate for threaded discussion and such comments will be refactored. The prohibition against posting private information remains in force here. When in doubt, submit evidence to the committee directly. |
Proposals for injunctions have been placed on the proposed decision page for voting; and the discussion suggesting them has been moved to the talk page. — Coren (talk) 01:17, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Do you claim that the list archive submitted to ArbCom was falsified? Have you received a copy yet? Jehochman Talk 09:15, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Future Perfect at Sunrise ( talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA), a named party to this case, utilized sysop tools to unblock another party, Tymek ( talk · contribs), over my objection. I had blocked Tymek as an apparently compromised account, or else as a disruptive account falsely claiming to be compromised. At the time I asked the Committee to consider the matter. Neither I nor FPaS has Checkuser access, whereas most members of the Committee do. In the block notice I specifically asked that the account not be unblocked without my consent, or else the consent of a Checkuser or ArbCom member. I consider FPaS action to be a serious violation of Wikipedia:Administrators. FPaS could have easily requested a clerk to perform the unblock if an unblock were needed. FPaS posted this message to my talk page upon performing the disputed sysop action. I request the FPaS be directed not to perform any further sysop actions on other parties to this case. I also request that the Committee respond to my message of September 16 so that I can understand whether you have looked into the matter of Tymek being a compromised account. FPaS seems to be concerned that you may have dropped the ball on that issue. I am also concerned. Jehochman Talk 01:57, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
To make things clear, the Committee did — and will continue to — examine the list of email that has been received for potential serious violations of Wikipedia rules. In particular, hounding, meatpuppetry and disruptively gaming the rules are all activities that are forbidden and destructive and that can (and usually are) made possible by coordination off-wiki.
In doing so, we are proceeding under a number of (rebuttable) presumptions: that the mail archive has not been fabricated, that most email within the archive have not been altered or falsified, and that completeness of that archive is unknown. Insofar as information in the emails correctly matches verifiable events on-wiki, they can be presumed to be authentic. Evidence otherwise is welcome and solicited, in particular from the participants of the mailing list.
There have been objections to the use of the archive entirely based on the allegation that it has been acquired through illegal or unethical means. It is to be noted that [a link to] the archive has been received independently by a number of editors, none of whom are alleged to have stolen it, who then forwarded it to the Arbitration Committee. Claims that it has been obtained improperly by the original sender are unsubstantiated, and unverifiable by the committee. Other alternatives are equally likely (that it was transmitted willingly by a member of the list or that it was leaked accidentally then forwarded by an unknown third party for instance) and investigating the issue is neither possible, nor within the Committee's remit.
At any rate, even if one ignored the obvious fact that criminal rules of evidence do not apply to the Committee the original provenance of the email archive is entirely moot: the Committee is not bound by an exclusionary rule in the first place. Even if the allegations of the mailing list archive having been taken illegally by an outsider "hacking" were correct, they lie entirely outside the jurisdiction and reach of the Committee, and have no bearing on the propriety of using it.
— Coren (talk) 18:28, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
I believe that much of the problem would be solved if we had a general prohibition on admins using their tools in ethnic disputes when those admins closely identify with one side of the ethnic dispute. Ethnic issues have probably the longest history of dispute, right back to Gdanzig and beyond, and I think that any administrative action should be strictly at arms length for these articles. I don't see how Piotrus, for example, can ever be perceived as an honest broker by the opposing side in these disputes - however carefully he might weigh the neutrality of every action, the mere fact of his involvement will be inflammatory to a deeply entrenched opposing camp - muc more so than would be the case with, say, William and climate change articles, where there is at least an objective standard by which to judge the issue. In many ethnic disputes there never can be an objective single value of truth, which is why they are so intractable. Guy ( Help!) 16:38, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
I believe that the Committee should adopt a policy that would inform parties presenting evidence to the ArbCom that they have no right to share private information that is not theirs without permission from other parties whose private information is being shared, and that the Committee will not accept such evidence. The Committee should also adopt a policy that it will not accept evidence obtained by illegal or unethical means (such as, but not limited to, hacking somebody's computer). This should substantially discourage parties from attempting to violate other editors' privacy, and from other illegal actions such as hacking. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 21:19, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Due to the fact that the case involves off-Wiki material that has been collected and possibly altered in an unknown manner and then disseminated with and without permission of the affected parties, issues of Wikipedia editor’s privacy, on and off Wiki, play a central, and unprecedented role in this case, in addition to the topics discussed on the mailing list or the nationalities or places of residence of its members.
As a result the case shall be renamed to “Eastern European Mailing List and Privacy Issues”.
Proposed by radek ( talk) 22:23, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Alex Bakharev is immediately temporarily desysopped.
User:Alex Bakharev, one of the administrators who received the email from Tymek's compromised acocunt with the supposed "evidence", despite the uncertain legal status of this material shared it with other Wikipedia users, notably User:Deacon_of_Pndapetzim. He did this despite being previously asked, in a specific and clear manner, more than once, not to share the information [1] [2], as it contained personal and private data about several Wikipedia users, including their real names, occupations and families. This was a clear violation of Wikipedia policy on outing.
As a result of showing bad judgment Alex Bakharev, for the duration of the ArbCom case shall be desysopped and his administrative privileges revoked, pending complete investigation and conclusion of this case.
Proposed by radek ( talk) 03:49, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
At Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern_European_mailing_list/Proposed_decision#Russavia NewYorkBrad suggested that I make a proposal on editing restrictions. As this Arbcom is partly centred around the topic of Soviet/Russian/succesor states history in relation to the history of the Baltic States, Poland and Romania, I feel that a fair proposal would be the temporary ban of myself, and all editors named as being on this email list, from editing articles relating to the history of the Soviet Union/Russia/successor states (including the Baltics), Poland and Romania, where the history is based upon any one of the named states interactions with any of the other named states, e.g. Soviet-Polish history, Polish-Ukrainian history, Russian-Estonian, Romanian-Moldovan history, etc. This would allow editing to continue by all editors in areas which are not related to this area of dispute, and where there is likely productive work going on, and for the duration of these proceedings. -- Russavia Dialogue 06:39, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
Based on the comments and activity of Deacon of Pndapetzim ( talk · contribs) I think it is obvious he consider himself a party to this case, and as such should be added to it.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 16:21, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
Would the list administrator agree to let somebody inspect the archives? In real life I occasionally serve as an expert witness and get to peruse through people's highly private (trade secret) data and give my opinions to the court. If you don't trust me, would you trust somebody else to examine the archives and tell ArbCom whether there were nefarious activities going on, or not? Jehochman Talk 22:38, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia is a project based mostly on anonymous contributions. Each writer's privacy is protected unless they choose to reveal their identity themselves. Posting another person's personal information, or external links to such information on Wikipedia oneself (i.e.: the link to the aforementioned mailing list archive), is harassment. Privacy violations include previously undisclosed real life names, IP addresses, email addresses etc. as per our Wikipedia:Harassment policy.
Personal information delivered by undisclosed users via Wikimedia servers such as the legal names of their content opponents, home or workplace addresses, telephone numbers, and other contact information is subject to disciplinary sanctions. Thus, according to Wikipedia guiding policies the above attempted outing becomes grounds for an immediate block. That’s why the Arbitration Committee must take all necessary steps to trace the user who carried out the outing, and act accordingly.
Users need not worry about accidentally damaging Wikipedia when adding or improving information, as other editors are always around to advise or correct obvious errors. Unless proven as misleading and malicious on purpose, the contributions provided by the group of Wikipedians connected by the above discussion forum shall be considered valuable to the project, knowledgeable and positive in spirit. Similarly, there’s nothing wrong with discussing the project by small interest groups outside Wikipedia for as long as no relevant action to the detriment of this project has been taken.
Wikipedia is written collaboratively, and requires cooperation among users leading to consensus. If anybody wishes to express doubts about the conduct of the above involved parties, then please substantiate those doubts with specific diffs and other relevant evidence drawn from Wikipedia and not from their personal correspondence acquired through illegal and/or unethical means. Although conduct may be assumed due to personal views, it is usually best to address it without mentioning motives, because you have them too (which would tend to exacerbate resentments all around). -- Poeticbent talk 22:17, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Proposed principles: Enforce WP:NPOV & WP:YESPOV , lets say by enforcing splitting-up the controversial articles into relevant sections describing the opposing viewpoints one by one instead of letting editors battle over the truth. Unless someone wants to return to similar ArbCom cases in the future, there is no other way to solve this 'cold information edit war' between the Eastern European 'nationalists' and Russian/Soviet 'imperilaists' (-broadly defined) on Wikipedia I think. WP:NPOV & WP:YESPOV needs to be enforced, otherwise nothing is going to be solved in the territory of EE with this another ArbCom case either I'm afraid. There are a number of editors under editing restrictions/banned/etc. already. Has anything changed? No. Only if Wikiedia rules change on controversial subjects, only then there might be a light in the end of this tunnel.-- Termer ( talk) 02:35, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
It looks like multiple users were driven out from Wikipedia by members of the team. They stopped editing to avoid further attacks (like Ghirlandajo) or were blocked (like me) through the efforts of the team. Most of them do not know about opening of this case and have no chance to present their evidence here. I myself noticed this case almost accidentally several days after it was opened. My proposal is that this editors should be:
DonaldDuck ( talk) 03:28, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
This is ridiculous. Petri Krohn got himself banned (twice!) for making threats and other disruptive behavior and the bans were imposed by neutral administrators with support from editors and admins not related to this case. Similar situation describes DD (17 reverts!) and others. This case isn't a COATRACK where every kind of grievance can be aired and everyone who has ever been restricted/reprimanded/banned/blocked/admonished gets to pretend that they never did anything wrong when they clearly did. In fact, that kind of attempts at abusing what this case is supposed to be about, should itself lead to reprimands and potential restrictions. radek ( talk) 07:27, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Premise 1: Generally, an article that has been "peer"-reviewed and achieved A-class of GA-class status is unlikely to generate edit wars or inflaming discussions. The reviewing process itself, even when it does not notably increase the size of an article, has tremendous potential to eliminate many (even potential, yet unsurfaced) points of contention.
Premise 2: Although it is a social phenomenon, Wikipedia is ultimately about content, not editors.
Proposal based on these premises: After this ArbCom case would be concluded, to set up a volunteer team of editors (or a mini-project), which, or under the supervision of which, a number of articles would be developed, and "peer"-reviewed, possibly or preferably by several independent editors in parallel. ArbCom would place a number of articles it deems worth trying this path into a (hidden, i.e. which doesn't show up) category. (My guess there would be around 20 such articles, but don't believe my guess.) There could be set up a procedure by which the coordinator of this mini-project could admit further articles into this category (in case this would be a success and there would be desire to enlarge the pool of articles). The procedure for removing an article from the category would have to involve a vote of the ArbCom. (The ArbCom would not validate in any way the content - absolutely not! b/c that would go against the basics of WP - but could conclude based on a report from the coordinator of this mini-project that satisfactory progress has been achieved on that article. For example, if it became GA-class, that would be - I would say - satisfactory.) Put otherwise, for an article to (re-)enter the category should be much easier than to leave it. Dc76\ talk 12:36, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
Every member of the mailing list has given approval for me to review their list correspondence. See User:Piotrus/ArbCom. Molobo signed at his user talk because of his block and Digwuren emailed approval because he no longer edits. List members will be supplying their correspondence records to me. Would the Committee please send me its copy of the list for comparison? I plan to prepare a detailed report. Collaborative input from the Committee would be welcome in this endeavor. Durova 320 20:13, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
I have a special request for you, Durova, with regard to your investigation. When comparing the illegal archive with the genuine list of exchanged emails, please pay special attention to messages that have been deleted by the whistleblower in an attempt to cover his own tracks. This would be important for the future, as possible proof of an attempted outing. Besides, you can’t get anymore genuine than that in your search for evidence tampering. -- Poeticbent talk 23:28, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
After discussion, the committee has decided that it was best that no exception be made to our internal policy of not further forwarding private or sensitive communications that have reached us. The mailing list archive includes amongst other things copies of correspondence that may have been forwarded or copied to the mailing list without clear authorization, and further dissemination is not appropriate. — Coren (talk) 18:14, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Look: I'm trying to keep this communication as transparent as possible. If side discussions derail things to the point where the arbitrators miss something important then matters will be harder on everyone. The best faith interpretation of Coren's and Risker's posts is that the Committee mistakenly supposed I've requested an exception to their privacy policy. I haven't requested any exception. If hurdles remain there are two possible workarounds:
I will be moving ahead after the start of UTC time tomorrow. If that progress occurs without the Committee's cooperation then I will pursue the second option and cull non-member material (the first option is unavailable since I do not know the names of any people who may be affected that way). Durova 320 03:13, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Durova, I would be very interested in your answers to the questions Bigtimepeace has proposed, most especially to the third one. In any comparison of the archive to so-called original emails, the possibility of tampering with the originals must be considered. If you do find any differences and have not controlled for the possibility of tampering then the reliability of any conclusions you might seek to draw will be undermined. EdChem ( talk) 17:12, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
This is just one of many proofs that despite lot of bad faith floating around editors involved in this case can still try to understand one another and cooperatively work together. Of course, the addition of private and sometimes offensive correspondence now made semi-public into the mix is not going to help, although I believe that there is evidence in the same correspondence that shows willingness to extend a hand and work to bridge the gaps. Nonetheless the fact remains that this was hard if not impossible to do for many months (if not years).
I'd like, therefore, to propose that the Committee considers a remedy that would involve close mediation and/or mentorship between various parties here, aiming at restoring good faith through discussion and work on articles that both parties find agreeable and helpful in building good trust (I am sure that if we look hard enough there are some mutually agreeable articles to cooperatively develop in every field, such as Russian-Estonian relations and so on). I do believe that most parties here share the goal of building a neutral, reliable encyclopedia. Developing ways to harness that common goal, and reducing bad faith that developed for various reasons, seems like "the right thing to do". And if we can turn this mess into something that will help the project, this will be truly and ArbCom case to remember :) -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:48, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
Piotrus, can you give me a single example of any of the emails which, in your words, "shows willingness to extend a hand and work to bridge the gaps" between list members and myself? All I see is discussing of how much of an enemy I am, a shedload of emails stating that I am the #1 target of your list, yourself posting threads in order for harrassment against me to snowball and continue. I wish I could believe what you write above, but call me cycnical. If you are able to show me a single email in relation to myself that covers what you say, I will eat my hat, and if you can show me three, I will support your proposal wholeheartedly. Additionally, if the Arbcom finds that stalking and harrassment of editors has taken place, that the victims' participation in any such mediation must be completely voluntary on that editor's part; otherwise it is akin to forcing a rape victim to go to counselling with her rapist. -- Russavia Dialogue 21:28, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
This was proposed by Irpen at Piotrus' last Arbcom [5]. Skäpperöd ( talk) 21:48, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
Copied here by Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 21:14, 23 September 2009 (UTC) from here
User:Molobo, one of the list members, was blocked for supposed sock-puppeting [6] (in an investigation involving "secret evidence" that may or may not be related to the present case). I propose that he is temporarily unblocked for the purpose of participating in this case, making his statement and so on. Of course, he'd be banned from editing articles not related to this case, although I think he should also be allowed to make an edit here [7]. radek ( talk) 04:14, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
User Piotrus today made revert on Polonization article violating his topic ban - [8] and 1RR imposed on him. Please compare with previous version before my edits to assure yourself that this is revert [9]. Again he adds nothing to content but edit wars.
He also added this [10].
Per [11], he violated his topic ban. Vlad fedorov ( talk) 17:04, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
There was a reason Vlad fedorov ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was banned for a year. Edit warring and extreme POV-pushing are a major part of it. Trying to abuse wiki dispute resolution was a factor, too. All nicely present above. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:22, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Speaking as a recused individual, the reference topic ban did not pass and was rejected by a wide majority of arbcom, therefore there is not topic ban in existence and Piotus could not have violated a non-existent ban. MBisanz talk 17:28, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm not going to speculate on the rightful fate of Piotrus and co because I still have enough faith (just) in Wikipeda and the Arbcom to know they will be banned. However, when this case eventually reaches its conclusions and decisions I think the Wikipedia community is entitled to a firm and decisive statement than no Arb was aware of the mailing list's existence prior to Alex's notification. If this is not possible, I suspect certain Arbs knew of it, we need an expanation as to why the situation was allowed to continue. Also, it is essential that all blocks, concerned with Eastern European subjects, performed by Sandstein are examined and their worthiness scrutenised. Without such assurances then this case wil never die. Giano ( talk) 17:49, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
I've posted the proposed principles early to help guide the collection of evidence and discussion. I do not expect that any findings of fact or remedies will be posted for a few weeks still, since more evidence (and examination of that evidence) is likely to be forthcoming.
Those principles, however, should give a good idea of what the Committee will be looking at in the weeks to come; and some of my colleagues may well propose a few more until then. — Coren (talk) 19:52, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Inspired by comments both here and elsewhere, I would like to direct editors attention to the inactive (for all instances and purposes) Wikipedia:WikiProject Eastern Europe. In particular, I've created Wikipedia:WikiProject Eastern Europe/Noticeboard where interested editors can list articles, disputes, votes and so on to officially canvass for community's attention (and everyone is welcome to watchlist it). The current page is just a draft; I'd like to invite all parties to sign up for the project, help design the tools we need and of course, help keep the project active. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 02:27, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Alex Bakharev proposed something similar at Piotrus' last arbcom [13]. Back then, Piotrus rejected the idea [14]. This Arbcom actually is about what he did instead, and I guess the FoFs will make most editors sceptical of the benefits of an EE board created and joined by Piotrus. Skäpperöd ( talk) 21:42, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
Some differences are just irreconcilable. Consider an article on Occupation of the Baltic states. For starters it lacked details on the historic background, namely being part of Russian empire, and short period of independence under British protection. Second, there is a difference between the terms annexation and occupation and yet one of the debatable POVs was put into the title, the other was merely mentioned in passing and heavily criticized. Third, in 1944-45 Allies liberated Europe from Nazis, not occupied it. (I remember there was even a deleted article on Allied occupation of Europe, I wonder why it was deleted...). Yet in case of Baltic states that episode was called re-occupation. I thought of rewriting the article (see what what I mean, but quickly gave up facing heavy nationalistic resistance. If the project/notice board will start up, I will bring this situation over "occupation of Europe by Nazis and Soviet Union" up for discussion, and I just wonder how a qualified mediator such as Vassyana might resolve this conflict. ( Igny ( talk) 02:12, 28 September 2009 (UTC))
I was gonna reply to Vassyana that I can see some reconciliation going on, particularly with people like Igny or Paul Siebert, who though I disagree with strongly I have acquired a good bit of respect in the past few weeks (and hell, if Igny was running for admin right now, I'd support him). I was also going to say that I can also see some reconciliation with folks like Russavia, mostly because whatever else, I respect dedicated content creation, but after that last comment where he compared the list participants to gang rapists (and people wonder how this guy got banned for incivility!) I don't see how that is possible. radek ( talk) 06:40, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
Both the opening motion and the injunction about to be passing prohibit inflammatory speculation about the case, explicitely labeling it as disruption in the latter case. Despite this, GiacomoReturned ( talk · contribs) has seen fit to make ominous-sounding comments, including on pages that are part of this case, that appear intended to imply a material involvement of me in this affair ( [16], [17], [18], [19], [20]). For these reasons, I respectfully request that GiacomoReturned be added to the parties to the case and that the Committee or a clerk take the steps required to prevent continued disruption of this sort.
Also, because I remain (for reasons unclear to me) named as a party to the case and have also been named in the ANI thread causing this case to be opened, I respectfully request that the final decision include findings of fact cleary reflecting my level of involvement with any offwiki coordination that may have been going on (i.e., no involvement whatsoever), and whether I was manipulated in any way through offwiki coordination to take administrative action. Although I can't currently think of any situation in which the latter might have been the case, I would appreciate being informed of any potential cases of manipulation so that I can reconsider the administrative action at issue. Sandstein 06:11, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Sandstein, for someone who claims to be uninvolved as far as Giano is concerned - uninvolved enough to block for a week only days ago - you are now sounding like you have an on-going issue with him. Perhaps you should re-evaluate your claims of being impartial in blocking him while you were both connected with this case? EdChem ( talk) 17:20, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Those proceedings are very deprived of good faith (on all sides), yet this project cannot function without this crucial ingredient. I am willing to assume good faith about anybody (even if I lost it in the past) and work, collaboratively with them, on an article they select. Although I have a huge ( public) log of articles I want to work on, I am willing, in an effort to show good faith and rebuild trust, to work with any editor here and apply my considerable experience in content creation to improving an article they are interested in and working on. It is my hope that by working together to create content we can rebuild the trust and good faith that got lost along the way - and help the project in its primary mission, creating encyclopedic content. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 16:36, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
There is this [22] that could either be used itself, or serve as a template (full disclosure: I wasn't the first to notice it). Of course there needs to be two sides to something like that and Russavia would need to stop making offensive, uncivil, remarks comparing list members to rapists. radek ( talk) 19:58, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
This is nauseating. You haven't even apologized to Russavia or any of the other editors who your group terrorized, you're still in complete denial about the damage you've caused to wikipedia, some of you actually have the nerve to suggest the cabal was a positive thing, yet you're already taking for granted the idea that you'll still be editing here in the near future? Maybe you should start thinking about begging the community to forgive you, and dealing with whatever punishment you're dealt with a giant smile on your face, still without ever the assumption that anyone will be able to take you in good faith if you ever do return to editing. LokiiT ( talk) 01:54, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
How about we start this discussion all over again, this time ignoring the personalities of the responders and rather focusing on the content of Piotrus' post? For the record, both Giano's history and also LokiiT's history are irrelevant when discussing Piotrus' proposal. Daniel ( talk) 03:17, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
Piotrus posted on my talk page, and as this is basically the same message, I will post my reply here.
Piotrus, first off, know that I am only unblocked at the present time so that I can participate in the current Arbcom proceedings. Other than that, I remain under a complete indef block, and even if I was not indef blocked, I would be unable to edit any such article, as I have been placed under a topic ban by User:Sandstein whereby for the next six months I am banned from editing anything broadly construed relating to the Soviet Union, its successor states, including the Baltic States, Russia or Russian people. So much so, I would even be unable to insert this photo into the Hugo Chavez article, and so much so that there is absolutely nothing else that I am able to edit on WP, as I have absolutely zero interest in shit like Pokemon, or the rest of the pop culture rubbish that tends to dominate this project. I have requested an official lifting of the indef block, but it seems that admins there want to await the conclusion of the Arb case; but it is entirely unlikely that the Arbcom will address this issue in the case, therefore I will likely remain under indef block for the duration of the case, which may take months given the amount of evidence and other issues. So I am not able to take you up on this so long as any bans on me are in place.
Secondly, and this is the most important part in relation to your message.
I am a productive editor, and I realise that we are here to help build an encyclopaedia, and this is supposed to be done in a collegial environment. And I simply want to be able to do that in peace. I do not want any battleground conditions, and have always said it would be great to get rid of the utter bullshit in this area of editing. Whilst we all have our own opinions, and I have even on occasion expressed my personal opinion on issues on talk pages, my edits in mainspace are always meticulously sourced, and done from as neutral POV as is humanly possible, and I always try to provide all sides of an issue when creating articles. The reason that many people may see me as pro-Putin is that often I see articles and it is missing a major POV, and often this is done deliberately by editors when articles are created, as they are here to engage in advocacy. Very few articles I have written require editors to come in and add tons of POV, as I try to ensure that all POV is covered from the very beginning.
Since November/December 2008, I have basically been the target of a systematic campaign of stalking and harrassment, and this campaign was widely discussed on your email list -- 10% of emails deal with myself in some way - more than other subject -- discussions which took place included stalking my edits, teaming up on myself, harrassment, etc, and some of this also included actual admissions by list members in ways to get me to be incivil in order to report me. I have known that I have been stalked and harrassed by certain members for the last 10 months -- WP is literally plastered with my pleadings for assistance in helping to deal with what I knew was going on, but nothing was ever done (and the community itself needs to take some responsibility for that). Because of the consistency and veracity of the harrassment from certain editors, I have lost my cool on occasion and lashed out, and as the stalking and harrassment has increased, so at times has my incivility. So bad has it been, that I have considered walking away from the project altogether on numerous occasions. But you know what, I still believe the project has a purpose and has some potential, and participating here is worth it. But I can tell you, that the harrassment is not worth it at all. And because of the length and nature of the harrassment that has taken place upon myself, whilst it is still not OK for me to lash out, it is an obvious reaction when one has been harrassed such as I have been.
So you can imagine my surprise in April of this year, when I stumbled across by pure chance that thread started by yourself on AN/I in regard to myself. And this was done after Biophys had sent emails to your list, and he even gave you links to User_talk:Tiptoety/Archive_19#Inappropriate_use_of_account.3F and User_talk:Russavia/Archive_6#Want_to_run_a_checkuser_on_me.3F_Well_read_on......, where you can see that this had already been addressed, and that it was considered by several users other than myself to be harrassment. But yet you posted it anyway, in what can only be considered as continuation of that harrassment on myself. At the time, I thought it a little too convenient that this subject should be raised on AN/I, and the only person to post was Biophys, hence why I asked you the questions I did.
This is just one incident of many involving the harrassment of myself by editors, but it is also the one incident that for some months has made me want to go off at you, although I haven't, because one would think that an admin who is supposedly a trusted member of the community would be party to such a thing. It was the stated intent of several editors on the list to make my wiki time absolute hell. And they succeeded, and you were an integral part of that. It wasn't simply a case of me being discussed on the list a few times, and we all know that.
I am an adult, and I live in the real world and I was brought up with the value system that people need to take responsibility for their actions. This is why I take responsibility for my actions, and if I have been uncivil to others, I sincerely apologise. And I will cop any fair punishment on the chin. Although with the latest drama, I did lash out afterwards, and I was a bit of a prick to Sandstein, and I apologise for that. But being an adult and living in the real world, I also expect others to admit their wrongs, because the only way that any reconciliation can take place is for past wrongs to be admitted and explained. This is something that I have had to go thru myself in the real world on occasion, by swallowing my own pride and coming to terms with events that had occurred. And I see no reason why WP should be any different.
It is fine that you wish to look forward, but I am sorry, I can not be a part of that so long as there is no acknowledgement or explanation by a single one of you in relation to what I have been put through the last 10 months, and there seems to be absolutely zero remorse at all. -- Russavia Dialogue 10:09, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
I have just read in the latest WP signpost at Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2009-09-28/Arbitration_report:
Standard workshop procedures appear to have been suspended for the case, so normal drafting of proposals by the parties and other editors is not taking place; a draft decision is to be written by arbitrators Coren and Newyorkbrad, but no date for it has been announced.
Can I be so bold as to ask why normal drafting of proposals by parties to the case and other editors is not taking place in this instance? I am sorry if this has been answered elsewhere, but I can't find any explanation for this in the case pages; maybe I am simply missing it? -- Russavia Dialogue 19:08, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
Though this will not be in the format of support/oppose/etc, but discussion. — Coren (talk) 20:40, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
There already exists a Digwuren sanction board for reported users where they are subject to 1 Revert restriction per day. From my experience limiting the revert limit leads to more discussions and more quality work on articles, that expand content. It could be useful to expand this over all politically related Central and Eastern European topics.
A big problem is lack of civility on the Wikipedia discussions. It would be good to reinstate WP:CIV and enforce it.
They are several works that I believe I could work with Russavia and Russian users with in order to reconcillate. For example:
-- Molobo ( talk) 11:36, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
I think that various parties, myself included, should consider adopting various restrictions, to show the community (and other parties) that they acknowledge they have made mistakes and to atone for them they will take actions to ensure their editing falls not only withing standards of what is required of an editor, but exceeds those standards.
As far as my actions are concerned, and with regards to evidence provided, I acknowledge that:
Further:
I will happily work with the Committee to refine the above if such a need arises.
I hope that other parties will follow with similar pledges. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 02:39, 12 October 2009 (UTC)