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Is Lee Grant born in 1925 or 1927? I'm confused. IMDB says 1927. Something else sats 1925. Ask Dinah Manoff. She knows, I think.-- E2e3v6 ( talk) 19:27, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
No, you're wrong. Lee Grant was born in 1927, according to IMDB. I know.-- E2e3v6 ( talk) 00:01, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
::: Turns out we were both wrong; according to Intelius search today, she was born in 1928, and is thus 83 years old! (WHO WOULDA GUESSED IT?) Given how rapidly Intelius changed the year of birth, I suspect Grant or someone on her behalf must have faxed a copy of something sufficiently trustworthy for Intelius to make the adjustment. Wow.
Quis separabit? 20:34, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Birth date requires a secondary source. Please see WP:BLPPRIMARY and WP:DOB. Kendall-K1 ( talk) 16:15, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
My own opinion is that BLP discourages listing a birth date unless it has been widely reported outside Wikipedia, but listing the birth year only requires a secondary source. And I would guess imdb counts as a secondary source, but I have not looked into it in detail. If you need more help with policy questions, I suggest going back to the BLP noticeboard and asking.
Kendall-K1 (
talk) 23:50, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
Let me revise the above. Someone at BLP/N has said that imdb is not considered a proper secondary source. Personally I don't know, I'm just guessing. I do know that the census is not a proper secondary source. Suggest you continue to ask at BLP/N if you need more help. Kendall-K1 ( talk) 23:56, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
On Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast #124 Lee said she was blacklisted at the age of 24. If she was blacklisted in 1951, that would put her birth year at 1927, depending upon the actual date of the blacklist (and assuming her memory is accurate). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1006:B108:C4F3:0:8:5D1E:D01 ( talk) 16:48, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
On Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast #124, Lee also mentioned a trip to Paris at age 6. According to ship records in the New York, Passenger Lists, 1820-1957 database, she was 7. If you look at the image of the record, not just the index, the record actually lists her date of birth as 31 Oct 1925.
Ship: Champlain Date of Arrival: 12 Jul 1933 Passenger: Lyova Rosenthal Age: 7 Date of birth: 31 Oct 1925 Birth Location: New York Port of Departure: Le Havre, France Port of Arrival: New York, New York
(Source Citation Year: 1933; Arrival: New York, New York; Microfilm Serial: T715, 1897-1957; Microfilm Roll: Roll 5355; Line: 27; Page Number: 45 Source Information Ancestry.com. New York, Passenger Lists, 1820-1957 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2010.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C2:4C01:274E:F852:C008:AE23:8138 ( talk) 09:18, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
Considering the above and this link, I think it’s pretty to confirm 1925 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XQBXR8HVuQ&app=desktop Mazaman ( talk) 11:54, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
I thought WP policy is "no original research" for material in an article. The forgoing all falls under the category of original research. Hence WP's admonition to not report a birthdate that is not widely reported elsewhere. If it's not widely reported, then don't include it. WP is about gathering together information that is available elsewhere, and debates are about credibility of the material so found, not about playing detectives in uncovering facts about the original subject. 107.132.168.109 ( talk) 09:19, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
Shouldn't there be some mention of this incident? For a good while over the years--before I came to think of her first for her memorable turn in the memorable "In the Heat of the Night"--I must admit that this was the first, and pretty much only, thing I would think of when hearing the name Lee Grant.
I don't know all the details, but my usually-pretty-reliable recollection is as follows: she appeared on "The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson" a while after a sitcom in which she starred--which I presume but don't know for a fact was "Fay" on NBC--had been cancelled. Now, I never saw a "Fay" episode, nor did I watch that edition of "Tonight", and indeed can't even confirm it was Carson, rather than one of his various guest hosts, that she was talking to that particular evening. In any case, the conversation on "Tonight" somehow came around to her recently-shuttered show. It was then that she uttered one of the most famous off-air quotes in TV history, attributing its cancellation to an unnamed "mad programmer" at the network. (While I didn't see "Tonight" that evening or in repeat--though I doubt it was ever repeated by NBC, given its notorious nature--I did read about it a day or so later, and then would see frequent references to it for several years thereafter.) Supposedly the outburst made her persona non grata throughout the television industry for years at least, which is understandable, especially if "Fay" was the sitcom in question, given that "Tonight" was also an NBC property. Can anyone add any details to this? Thanks in advance. [signed] FLORIDA BRYAN
This article states, and Ms Grant stated to Robert Osborne on TCM in a guest programmer segment (7/30/2014), that she had been blacklisted for 12 years. Isn't that incorrect??? She was "outed" in Red Channels magazine in 1952 and did not appear on the screen, at least, until 1959 in "Middle of the Night." Did she appear under a stage name??? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_of_the_Night I think the article needs more factual research. User:JCHeverly 16:05, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
In one of her many book interviews this summer, Grant said she had three children and two were step sons. User:JCHeverly 05:12, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Being that the reliable sources have her dob as being between 1925 and 1928, I suggest rather than having the article look silly with no birth date, we include a reliable sourced one, note the differing cites, and add a note explaining the others. We can let the reader decide. I'll add one to the infobox pending further consensus or debates, and do we really care?-- Light show ( talk) 04:44, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
Nor is there any reason to give special attention to Only Victims: A Study of Show Business Blacklisting, By Robert Vaughn, as his viewpoint would not be any more reliable than the two encyclopedias cited in the infobox. He used his PhD thesis for the book, and adding text about the book itself is unnecessary and undue promotion, since it's already listed as a citation with all the others. -- Light show ( talk) 18:36, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
That is unjust. The book cites records from the hearings where she stated she was born that year. Radiohist ( talk) 22:36, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
These links:
http://www.familytreenow.com/search/census/results/image/lr4snn600n0
http://www.familytreenow.com/search/census/results?first=Lyova&middle=H&last=Rosenthal&state=NY&rid=0s0&smck=ULmAoibGO4nwrcmj0g9R7w
indicate Lyova Rosenthal was 14 years old in April 1940 (age provided as of last birthday, i.e. 10/31/1939), showing that 1925 is the correct YOB, just for the heck of it.
Quis separabit? 15:15, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
Penguin Publishing, which published her autobiography, is likely the best source. Their description on the flyleaf states, "At age twenty-four she was nominated for an Academy Award for Detective Story..." The film was released in 1951, and she would have been nominated in 1952, which would put her birth date in 1928. -- Light show ( talk) 02:03, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
Plus Kirk Douglas in his own autobiography, I Am Spartacus!, and the star of Detective Story, said she was twenty-three when they filmed it. -- Light show ( talk) 02:07, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
According to guidelines about using primary sources for her date of birth, most, if not all of them should probably be removed. This Holmesian attention to her dob has produced an " analysis paralysis" status which has undermined the bio, IMO. We have a bio of a famous person with no date of birth, along with a questionable assertion that there is a "dispute." Are there actually disputes about it? If so, they are not cited. Just because different sources give a different date for an event, does not alone create a controversy.
I have a simple suggestion to bring the bio back to earth. First, we agree on the guidelines about not overusing primary sources:
Then we come to a consensus about which secondary sources are the most reliable. I mentioned two examples in the previous section, and there are obviously others, including her own testimony at the HUAC. From that consensus, we choose a single dob for the bio, and include the other RSs for other dates as a note. While the date may be scientifically incorrect, what is correct now IMO is that the bio is highly defective with its reliance on reaching absolute certainty. Thoughts?-- Light show ( talk) 21:50, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
The basis for the different dates are primary sources, such as census records and travel manifests. But the guidelines say that RSs should be secondary sources, and Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source. So do we have secondary sources listing different dates? (I'm not using the word "disputed" since that implies people are disputing the dates.)
And per the discussions, there is a consensus to use 1928. Is there some guideline that states that where two or more facts differ, neither one can be included, even with a note? Is an RfC needed? -- Light show ( talk) 04:29, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
It seems little has been resolved about the issues: 1) Is analysis to paralysis undermining the bio?, or 2) Primary vs. secondary sources.
It's useful that a few non-editors to this bio have stopped by to make comments, but the issues noted have not been resolved. This is a 3,000-word article and there appears to be an intense effort to imply that there is a dispute about her dob, so we can't give one. IMO, the effort is misguided and there certainly is no "dispute."
About some of the the new comments, Betty Logan wrote that her "presumably under oath" HUAC statement should take priority as another primary source. But note that her HUAC testimony came from a secondary source by an author who was not there. As for the strange amount of forensic research about what she wrote on a census form, a number of details: There is no link to the actual forms, although the cite says they were online. And Grant already said in the radio interview that she once asked the Mayor of Los Angeles to change her drivers license date, which would be a bit harder than filling out a census form. In any case, census data, even if we have it, is a primary source, and the point of the discussion is whether they should take precedence over secondary sources. The guidelines say no.
Her recent radio and TV interviews are both primary and secondary sources combined. The interviewer stated her age and she tacitly agreed.
Personally, I don't care which date is used, and don't assume too many readers care either. The point is whether it undermines the bio to have a few editors create an imaginary "dispute" about something so insignificant. I just looked at how a very reliable 1,600-page encyclopedia dealt with it, (International Dictionary of Films and Filmakers: Actors and Actesses) and it's similar to what we have now. It has the year, and in parentheses states, "some sources give ..." Very simple and logical. Nor is there any "dispute," which for some reason a few editors claim there is, since a "dispute" implies some sort of argument, and there are no arguments. We only have some different sources which include different dates. -- Light show ( talk) 20:08, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
Lyova Rosenthal was born in the mid-1920s. The granddaughter of Polish and Russian immigrants is famously inexact about her age.Look at the other book reviews. She is not a reliable source for the year of her birth.
I went ahead and reverted to the sourced version that I created that doesn't give an exact year, then copied the reference and note to the infobox. At least this version is sourced and the accuracy of the content is not disputed. As far as presentation, I find it awkward.
This version mentioned [3] seems better in that it gives a more specific and verifiable range. I don't think it is an OR violation if sourced, but I think we need the sources to back it up. -- Ronz ( talk) 19:49, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
Two secondary sources: She tacitly agreed she was born in 1928 in two recent interviews when the interviewers themselves stated that she was 24 when she received her Oscar: Audio interview with Gilbert Gottfried, Nov. 2016, and interview with Robert Osborne in 2014 (08:13) -- Light show ( talk) 06:26, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
Repeating yourself isn't adding anything new. You go further than Ronz, in fact, claiming "there are countless secondary sources," yet are again unable to provide any. As it is, there are only those two interviews that are secondary sources, so claiming that I am promoting one source over another is nonsense. I also replied to your consensus issue and you've again ignored the question. And as stated at the beginning of this entire discussion, I don't care what date is used and have no "favorite" dates, as you said.
Word games don't do it either: ie. By your reasoning, if you told someone that you believed they were from Mars, and they didn't reply, then the person effectively stated they were from Mars. -- Light show ( talk) 23:11, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
Lyova Rosenthal was born in the mid-1920s. The granddaughter of Polish and Russian immigrants is famously inexact about her age. From her mid-20s to her mid-30s, the blacklist left her unemployable in TV and film, so she lied about her years, whatever they were, to remain viable as an actress.
I've been looking for the year. I've not found a source that specifically gives it, but the facts seem to all point to '31. I think it would be OR to include it without a source clearly identifying the year, but it's worth looking for as such early life details are good indicators of actual birthdates. I'll track down and list a few of the sources I'd previously found. There are multiple sources quoting that she was either 3 or 4 when she debuted. -- Ronz ( talk) 00:23, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
I'm not sure what's the best solution, but I don't see how the WT:IRS discussion will move us along.
Looking at the independent, primary sources, 1925 is clear, but the secondary sources verifying it are rather poor. Can we agree that she wasn't born after 1928, given she appeared on stage as a child in November 1931?
I don't recall seeing a reference that gives a range, but then we've not populated the sections above about what sources say what. I'll add a subsection specifically for sources that give ranges. I'm going to assume there are none in the meantime.
Grant is clearly not a reliable source for the year of her birth, so we shouldn't be presenting any quotes from her, interviews, etc, without a reliable independent secondary source that clearly demonstrates why such information should be presented.
We do have a source that specifically says, "Lyova Rosenthal was born in the mid-1920s." I don't think we can go far wrong using that rather than a range. I don't expect anyone is going to argue for a specific year instead.
Note that we need to take care to avoid original research (especially combining information from multiple references to create or justify information) and neutrality problems (especially giving weight to information or sources where it is not due). -- Ronz ( talk) 18:14, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
SFGate article is essentially a primary sourceI doubt you'll find any agreement to that.
she had no reason to give an erroneous date since...That's original research to promote a viewpoint not in any sources while attempting to discredit contradicting sources. She is simply not a reliable source for the year of her birth, and it would require exceptionally qualified sources to change that. -- Ronz ( talk) 20:32, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
The question should be whether your your "bold" edit should be reverted. Expanding the notes is OK, although the massive list of different dates is absurd and could be tightened. It makes the bio harder to dig through with excessive minutia. IMO, (OR alert!) hardly anyone will care whether she's now 89 or 90 or whatever. And again, any reasonably supported date is fine with notes. Recall that the original issue was whether a single date was best, and which one. There was a 2 to 1 consensus, by the main editors, to use 1928. I personally didn't expect your way of commenting.-- Light show ( talk) 00:49, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
But I don't feel an RfC is needed. Both you and BL are drive-byes who had never contributed the the bio. I feel a self-revert on your part is the simplest solution, and the discussion can continue. If so few of the 1,000-plus watchers at IRS wanted to comment after two weeks, it's unlikely any casual RfC editors will add much. -- Light show ( talk) 01:15, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Lee Grant is a famous actress who was born on October 31, some time between 1925 and 1931 according to secondary and tertiary sources, and 1925 and 1928 according to primary sources. It is the year that is contentious. Census records state she was 4 in 1930 and 14 in 1940. We can independently corroborate that Grant made her stage debut in November 1931, and in her autobiography she claims to have been 4 years old at the time (her debut was just a few weeks after birthday). She was nominated for an oscar in March 1952, at the age of 24 according to her autobiography. She was called before the House Un-American Activities Committee and promptly blacklisted for refusing to testify against her husband. At her hearing she gave her date of birth as October 31, 1926. She lost ten years of her career and after resuming it undertook a deception in regards to her age to obtain work. She admits to persuading the mayor to alter her date of birth on her driving licence to knock five years off her age. In some recent interviews the year given has been 1928, although such a date is inconsistent with the ages she gives in her autobiography. The question I put to the community is How should Grant's date of birth be presented in the article? Betty Logan ( talk) 23:12, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
These are the various proposals:
References
Lyova Rosenthal was born in the mid-1920s. The granddaughter of Polish and Russian immigrants is famously inexact about her age. From her mid-20s to her mid-30s, the blacklist left her unemployable in TV and film, so she lied about her years, whatever they were, to remain viable as an actress.
Grant: I was nominated and I was given the Best Actress Award in Cannes in 1952; Gottfried: So here you are and I think you were 24 at the time so this is like your career is exploding and then what happens then?
References
References
By that time I was twenty-four when I was nominated for an Academy Award and I won the Cannes Film Festival Award for Best Actress... for this little teeny part in 1952
Grant: I was nominated and I was given the Best Actress Award in Cannes in 1952; Gottfried: So here you are and I think you were 24 at the time so this is like your career is exploding and then what happens then?
Lyova Rosenthal was born in the mid-1920s. The granddaughter of Polish and Russian immigrants is famously inexact about her age. From her mid-20s to her mid-30s, the blacklist left her unemployable in TV and film, so she lied about her years, whatever they were, to remain viable as an actress.
@ Ronz and Light show: I have been looking at the two interviews that Light show has been repeatedly bringing up as "proof" that Grant was born in 1928, and have discvered he has been misrepresenting the contents of the sources, namely the two interviews with TCM's Robert Osborne and an interview with Gilbert Gottfried. I will reproduce them here for convenience:
By that time I was twenty-four when I was nominated for an Academy Award and I won the Cannes Film Festival Award for Best Actress... for this little teeny part in 1952
Grant: I was nominated and I was given the Best Actress Award in Cannes in 1952; Gottfried: So here you are and I think you were 24 at the time so this is like your career is exploding and then what happens then?
Here are some observations:
The very basis of Light show's assertion that Grant was born in 1928 is flawed. Both the interviews and her autobiography state she was was 24 when she was nominated for an oscar and when she won at Cannes. Even aside from the fact Grant is not a reliable source for her date of birth, taken at face value Grant's claims we can mathematically conclude she was born before May 1928 (either early 1928 or some time in 1927). I guess we could have saved ourselves a lot of time by checking Light show's sources, but I hope now he will give up on this doomed crusade to install 1928 when his own sources imply a 1927 date! Betty Logan ( talk) 22:26, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
I'm just waiting for others to respond. I don't see how we can meet BLP while asserting one specific year without confirmed birth records. -- Ronz ( talk) 15:36, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
I'm disappointed with the response. Shall we leave it open, try to get it closed, try to get more responses somehow, something else? Is there a standard way to try to get further response? -- Ronz ( talk) 23:28, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
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Not to rehash a topic that has clearly been discussed to death, but I came across an on-camera interview from April 2017 where the reporter asks Grant is asked what year she was born to put the question to rest, and she tells him she was "outed" as being born in 1925, and confirms that as her birth year. If the previous years she's given were to purposely make her seem younger, I cannot think of a reason why she would admit she was born in 1925 (as it dates her the oldest) if it weren't true. The link is here: [10] Not sure if it's worth anything, but I thought I'd put it here for consideration/documentation. It may prove useful at some point. -- Drown Soda ( talk) 05:54, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
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The records show she was born in 1924. ( ManyMoonsoons ( talk) 00:03, 9 September 2018 (UTC))
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A stray keystroke jumbled some of the filmography grid. Please help when you have a moment. Thank you :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lwottring ( talk • contribs) 22:03, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
An IP editor removed mention of Grant's awards and nomination from the first paragraph in the lead. The edit was subsequently reverted by Hipal on the grounds that it is part of her notability.
While I agree with Hipal that it is indeed part of her notability and should definitely be mentioned in the lead, it is worth noting that her awards are already mentioned in the second and third paragraphs (with the exception of the DGA directing award), so essentially the IP was simply eliminating some redundancy. I am of the opinion that the awards do not need to be mentioned twice in the lead. A good template for incorporating awards information into the lead can be seen at Laurence Olivier. I would suggest reinstating the IP's edit and adding in mention of the DGA award to the third paragraph. Betty Logan ( talk) 19:21, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
Re the reversion of my addition to the Factbox (31/1/21), it came from the Wiki page for Joseph Feury: He and Grant are the parents of Belinda Fioretti. - admittedly unreferenced. Valetude ( talk) 00:23, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
Hi Beeandzo and welcome to Wikipedia. I am enquiring about the latest edits you have made to this article. In the future, please note that if you change the content of an article, it is customary to add an edit summary explaining why in detail. In addition, it is very important to always cite ( WP:CITE) reliable sources ( WP:RS) when you add information to an article, especially when you are working on the biography of a living person. Here are a the edits I would like to ask you about:
Thank you. JBchrch ( talk) 15:09, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
I'm not entirely sure how to reference everything, sorry. But in terms of the first point: in her biography, I Said Yes To Everything, Lee Grant mentioned that she met Joseph Fioretti when her daughter was five years old, which would have been in 1961/1962. She also mentioned in the book that they didn't get married until much later. Her daughter Dinah also said that Lee and Joseph lived together "for 12 years" before they got married. www.youtu.be/cyczBjsVrCQ (at 5:17 in the video) The occupation of her mother is also from the book. She mentions in the book that her mother ran a day care as a profession. In reading a lot of reviews of the film, they were slightly more positive than "mixed." Beeandzo ( talk) 19:07, 15 March 2021 (UTC)Beeandzo
The result of the move request was: consensus against move. —usernamekiran (talk) 21:39, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
– no clear WP:PRIMARYTOPIC [15] Joeykai ( talk) 22:45, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
There has been several recent edits to the infobox ( [16], [17] & [18]) which can only be described as unconstructive. Grant has had a long, eventful, and notable career; she is primarily known for being an actress who has had a string of high-profile film and TV appearances, so narrowing her notability down to just a single film is not particularly helpful. If Grant had never made Shampoo she would still be an actress of some note.
Also, invoking the "awards" parameter in this manner is not consistent with how the parameter is used in other articles. It is generally used to link to standalone lists if one exists. You can see an example of its usage at Kate Winslet and Scarlett Johansson. Just because the parameter is there does not mean it has to be used. You need to consider how helpful the information is to the reader. For this reason it is better to stick to established precedents. Betty Logan ( talk) 21:53, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
We had a request from IRC to update Grant's year of birth based on this article. I am not an expert on the subject, and while the article does not appear on the surface to not be reliable I am also cognizant of the rather large footnote about the matter. Thus, posting here for further review. No need to ping, I'll keep an eye on this thread. Thanks. Primefac ( talk) 14:13, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
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Is Lee Grant born in 1925 or 1927? I'm confused. IMDB says 1927. Something else sats 1925. Ask Dinah Manoff. She knows, I think.-- E2e3v6 ( talk) 19:27, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
No, you're wrong. Lee Grant was born in 1927, according to IMDB. I know.-- E2e3v6 ( talk) 00:01, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
::: Turns out we were both wrong; according to Intelius search today, she was born in 1928, and is thus 83 years old! (WHO WOULDA GUESSED IT?) Given how rapidly Intelius changed the year of birth, I suspect Grant or someone on her behalf must have faxed a copy of something sufficiently trustworthy for Intelius to make the adjustment. Wow.
Quis separabit? 20:34, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Birth date requires a secondary source. Please see WP:BLPPRIMARY and WP:DOB. Kendall-K1 ( talk) 16:15, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
My own opinion is that BLP discourages listing a birth date unless it has been widely reported outside Wikipedia, but listing the birth year only requires a secondary source. And I would guess imdb counts as a secondary source, but I have not looked into it in detail. If you need more help with policy questions, I suggest going back to the BLP noticeboard and asking.
Kendall-K1 (
talk) 23:50, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
Let me revise the above. Someone at BLP/N has said that imdb is not considered a proper secondary source. Personally I don't know, I'm just guessing. I do know that the census is not a proper secondary source. Suggest you continue to ask at BLP/N if you need more help. Kendall-K1 ( talk) 23:56, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
On Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast #124 Lee said she was blacklisted at the age of 24. If she was blacklisted in 1951, that would put her birth year at 1927, depending upon the actual date of the blacklist (and assuming her memory is accurate). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1006:B108:C4F3:0:8:5D1E:D01 ( talk) 16:48, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
On Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast #124, Lee also mentioned a trip to Paris at age 6. According to ship records in the New York, Passenger Lists, 1820-1957 database, she was 7. If you look at the image of the record, not just the index, the record actually lists her date of birth as 31 Oct 1925.
Ship: Champlain Date of Arrival: 12 Jul 1933 Passenger: Lyova Rosenthal Age: 7 Date of birth: 31 Oct 1925 Birth Location: New York Port of Departure: Le Havre, France Port of Arrival: New York, New York
(Source Citation Year: 1933; Arrival: New York, New York; Microfilm Serial: T715, 1897-1957; Microfilm Roll: Roll 5355; Line: 27; Page Number: 45 Source Information Ancestry.com. New York, Passenger Lists, 1820-1957 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2010.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C2:4C01:274E:F852:C008:AE23:8138 ( talk) 09:18, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
Considering the above and this link, I think it’s pretty to confirm 1925 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XQBXR8HVuQ&app=desktop Mazaman ( talk) 11:54, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
I thought WP policy is "no original research" for material in an article. The forgoing all falls under the category of original research. Hence WP's admonition to not report a birthdate that is not widely reported elsewhere. If it's not widely reported, then don't include it. WP is about gathering together information that is available elsewhere, and debates are about credibility of the material so found, not about playing detectives in uncovering facts about the original subject. 107.132.168.109 ( talk) 09:19, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
Shouldn't there be some mention of this incident? For a good while over the years--before I came to think of her first for her memorable turn in the memorable "In the Heat of the Night"--I must admit that this was the first, and pretty much only, thing I would think of when hearing the name Lee Grant.
I don't know all the details, but my usually-pretty-reliable recollection is as follows: she appeared on "The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson" a while after a sitcom in which she starred--which I presume but don't know for a fact was "Fay" on NBC--had been cancelled. Now, I never saw a "Fay" episode, nor did I watch that edition of "Tonight", and indeed can't even confirm it was Carson, rather than one of his various guest hosts, that she was talking to that particular evening. In any case, the conversation on "Tonight" somehow came around to her recently-shuttered show. It was then that she uttered one of the most famous off-air quotes in TV history, attributing its cancellation to an unnamed "mad programmer" at the network. (While I didn't see "Tonight" that evening or in repeat--though I doubt it was ever repeated by NBC, given its notorious nature--I did read about it a day or so later, and then would see frequent references to it for several years thereafter.) Supposedly the outburst made her persona non grata throughout the television industry for years at least, which is understandable, especially if "Fay" was the sitcom in question, given that "Tonight" was also an NBC property. Can anyone add any details to this? Thanks in advance. [signed] FLORIDA BRYAN
This article states, and Ms Grant stated to Robert Osborne on TCM in a guest programmer segment (7/30/2014), that she had been blacklisted for 12 years. Isn't that incorrect??? She was "outed" in Red Channels magazine in 1952 and did not appear on the screen, at least, until 1959 in "Middle of the Night." Did she appear under a stage name??? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_of_the_Night I think the article needs more factual research. User:JCHeverly 16:05, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
In one of her many book interviews this summer, Grant said she had three children and two were step sons. User:JCHeverly 05:12, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Being that the reliable sources have her dob as being between 1925 and 1928, I suggest rather than having the article look silly with no birth date, we include a reliable sourced one, note the differing cites, and add a note explaining the others. We can let the reader decide. I'll add one to the infobox pending further consensus or debates, and do we really care?-- Light show ( talk) 04:44, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
Nor is there any reason to give special attention to Only Victims: A Study of Show Business Blacklisting, By Robert Vaughn, as his viewpoint would not be any more reliable than the two encyclopedias cited in the infobox. He used his PhD thesis for the book, and adding text about the book itself is unnecessary and undue promotion, since it's already listed as a citation with all the others. -- Light show ( talk) 18:36, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
That is unjust. The book cites records from the hearings where she stated she was born that year. Radiohist ( talk) 22:36, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
These links:
http://www.familytreenow.com/search/census/results/image/lr4snn600n0
http://www.familytreenow.com/search/census/results?first=Lyova&middle=H&last=Rosenthal&state=NY&rid=0s0&smck=ULmAoibGO4nwrcmj0g9R7w
indicate Lyova Rosenthal was 14 years old in April 1940 (age provided as of last birthday, i.e. 10/31/1939), showing that 1925 is the correct YOB, just for the heck of it.
Quis separabit? 15:15, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
Penguin Publishing, which published her autobiography, is likely the best source. Their description on the flyleaf states, "At age twenty-four she was nominated for an Academy Award for Detective Story..." The film was released in 1951, and she would have been nominated in 1952, which would put her birth date in 1928. -- Light show ( talk) 02:03, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
Plus Kirk Douglas in his own autobiography, I Am Spartacus!, and the star of Detective Story, said she was twenty-three when they filmed it. -- Light show ( talk) 02:07, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
According to guidelines about using primary sources for her date of birth, most, if not all of them should probably be removed. This Holmesian attention to her dob has produced an " analysis paralysis" status which has undermined the bio, IMO. We have a bio of a famous person with no date of birth, along with a questionable assertion that there is a "dispute." Are there actually disputes about it? If so, they are not cited. Just because different sources give a different date for an event, does not alone create a controversy.
I have a simple suggestion to bring the bio back to earth. First, we agree on the guidelines about not overusing primary sources:
Then we come to a consensus about which secondary sources are the most reliable. I mentioned two examples in the previous section, and there are obviously others, including her own testimony at the HUAC. From that consensus, we choose a single dob for the bio, and include the other RSs for other dates as a note. While the date may be scientifically incorrect, what is correct now IMO is that the bio is highly defective with its reliance on reaching absolute certainty. Thoughts?-- Light show ( talk) 21:50, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
The basis for the different dates are primary sources, such as census records and travel manifests. But the guidelines say that RSs should be secondary sources, and Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source. So do we have secondary sources listing different dates? (I'm not using the word "disputed" since that implies people are disputing the dates.)
And per the discussions, there is a consensus to use 1928. Is there some guideline that states that where two or more facts differ, neither one can be included, even with a note? Is an RfC needed? -- Light show ( talk) 04:29, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
It seems little has been resolved about the issues: 1) Is analysis to paralysis undermining the bio?, or 2) Primary vs. secondary sources.
It's useful that a few non-editors to this bio have stopped by to make comments, but the issues noted have not been resolved. This is a 3,000-word article and there appears to be an intense effort to imply that there is a dispute about her dob, so we can't give one. IMO, the effort is misguided and there certainly is no "dispute."
About some of the the new comments, Betty Logan wrote that her "presumably under oath" HUAC statement should take priority as another primary source. But note that her HUAC testimony came from a secondary source by an author who was not there. As for the strange amount of forensic research about what she wrote on a census form, a number of details: There is no link to the actual forms, although the cite says they were online. And Grant already said in the radio interview that she once asked the Mayor of Los Angeles to change her drivers license date, which would be a bit harder than filling out a census form. In any case, census data, even if we have it, is a primary source, and the point of the discussion is whether they should take precedence over secondary sources. The guidelines say no.
Her recent radio and TV interviews are both primary and secondary sources combined. The interviewer stated her age and she tacitly agreed.
Personally, I don't care which date is used, and don't assume too many readers care either. The point is whether it undermines the bio to have a few editors create an imaginary "dispute" about something so insignificant. I just looked at how a very reliable 1,600-page encyclopedia dealt with it, (International Dictionary of Films and Filmakers: Actors and Actesses) and it's similar to what we have now. It has the year, and in parentheses states, "some sources give ..." Very simple and logical. Nor is there any "dispute," which for some reason a few editors claim there is, since a "dispute" implies some sort of argument, and there are no arguments. We only have some different sources which include different dates. -- Light show ( talk) 20:08, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
Lyova Rosenthal was born in the mid-1920s. The granddaughter of Polish and Russian immigrants is famously inexact about her age.Look at the other book reviews. She is not a reliable source for the year of her birth.
I went ahead and reverted to the sourced version that I created that doesn't give an exact year, then copied the reference and note to the infobox. At least this version is sourced and the accuracy of the content is not disputed. As far as presentation, I find it awkward.
This version mentioned [3] seems better in that it gives a more specific and verifiable range. I don't think it is an OR violation if sourced, but I think we need the sources to back it up. -- Ronz ( talk) 19:49, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
Two secondary sources: She tacitly agreed she was born in 1928 in two recent interviews when the interviewers themselves stated that she was 24 when she received her Oscar: Audio interview with Gilbert Gottfried, Nov. 2016, and interview with Robert Osborne in 2014 (08:13) -- Light show ( talk) 06:26, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
Repeating yourself isn't adding anything new. You go further than Ronz, in fact, claiming "there are countless secondary sources," yet are again unable to provide any. As it is, there are only those two interviews that are secondary sources, so claiming that I am promoting one source over another is nonsense. I also replied to your consensus issue and you've again ignored the question. And as stated at the beginning of this entire discussion, I don't care what date is used and have no "favorite" dates, as you said.
Word games don't do it either: ie. By your reasoning, if you told someone that you believed they were from Mars, and they didn't reply, then the person effectively stated they were from Mars. -- Light show ( talk) 23:11, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
Lyova Rosenthal was born in the mid-1920s. The granddaughter of Polish and Russian immigrants is famously inexact about her age. From her mid-20s to her mid-30s, the blacklist left her unemployable in TV and film, so she lied about her years, whatever they were, to remain viable as an actress.
I've been looking for the year. I've not found a source that specifically gives it, but the facts seem to all point to '31. I think it would be OR to include it without a source clearly identifying the year, but it's worth looking for as such early life details are good indicators of actual birthdates. I'll track down and list a few of the sources I'd previously found. There are multiple sources quoting that she was either 3 or 4 when she debuted. -- Ronz ( talk) 00:23, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
I'm not sure what's the best solution, but I don't see how the WT:IRS discussion will move us along.
Looking at the independent, primary sources, 1925 is clear, but the secondary sources verifying it are rather poor. Can we agree that she wasn't born after 1928, given she appeared on stage as a child in November 1931?
I don't recall seeing a reference that gives a range, but then we've not populated the sections above about what sources say what. I'll add a subsection specifically for sources that give ranges. I'm going to assume there are none in the meantime.
Grant is clearly not a reliable source for the year of her birth, so we shouldn't be presenting any quotes from her, interviews, etc, without a reliable independent secondary source that clearly demonstrates why such information should be presented.
We do have a source that specifically says, "Lyova Rosenthal was born in the mid-1920s." I don't think we can go far wrong using that rather than a range. I don't expect anyone is going to argue for a specific year instead.
Note that we need to take care to avoid original research (especially combining information from multiple references to create or justify information) and neutrality problems (especially giving weight to information or sources where it is not due). -- Ronz ( talk) 18:14, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
SFGate article is essentially a primary sourceI doubt you'll find any agreement to that.
she had no reason to give an erroneous date since...That's original research to promote a viewpoint not in any sources while attempting to discredit contradicting sources. She is simply not a reliable source for the year of her birth, and it would require exceptionally qualified sources to change that. -- Ronz ( talk) 20:32, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
The question should be whether your your "bold" edit should be reverted. Expanding the notes is OK, although the massive list of different dates is absurd and could be tightened. It makes the bio harder to dig through with excessive minutia. IMO, (OR alert!) hardly anyone will care whether she's now 89 or 90 or whatever. And again, any reasonably supported date is fine with notes. Recall that the original issue was whether a single date was best, and which one. There was a 2 to 1 consensus, by the main editors, to use 1928. I personally didn't expect your way of commenting.-- Light show ( talk) 00:49, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
But I don't feel an RfC is needed. Both you and BL are drive-byes who had never contributed the the bio. I feel a self-revert on your part is the simplest solution, and the discussion can continue. If so few of the 1,000-plus watchers at IRS wanted to comment after two weeks, it's unlikely any casual RfC editors will add much. -- Light show ( talk) 01:15, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Lee Grant is a famous actress who was born on October 31, some time between 1925 and 1931 according to secondary and tertiary sources, and 1925 and 1928 according to primary sources. It is the year that is contentious. Census records state she was 4 in 1930 and 14 in 1940. We can independently corroborate that Grant made her stage debut in November 1931, and in her autobiography she claims to have been 4 years old at the time (her debut was just a few weeks after birthday). She was nominated for an oscar in March 1952, at the age of 24 according to her autobiography. She was called before the House Un-American Activities Committee and promptly blacklisted for refusing to testify against her husband. At her hearing she gave her date of birth as October 31, 1926. She lost ten years of her career and after resuming it undertook a deception in regards to her age to obtain work. She admits to persuading the mayor to alter her date of birth on her driving licence to knock five years off her age. In some recent interviews the year given has been 1928, although such a date is inconsistent with the ages she gives in her autobiography. The question I put to the community is How should Grant's date of birth be presented in the article? Betty Logan ( talk) 23:12, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
These are the various proposals:
References
Lyova Rosenthal was born in the mid-1920s. The granddaughter of Polish and Russian immigrants is famously inexact about her age. From her mid-20s to her mid-30s, the blacklist left her unemployable in TV and film, so she lied about her years, whatever they were, to remain viable as an actress.
Grant: I was nominated and I was given the Best Actress Award in Cannes in 1952; Gottfried: So here you are and I think you were 24 at the time so this is like your career is exploding and then what happens then?
References
References
By that time I was twenty-four when I was nominated for an Academy Award and I won the Cannes Film Festival Award for Best Actress... for this little teeny part in 1952
Grant: I was nominated and I was given the Best Actress Award in Cannes in 1952; Gottfried: So here you are and I think you were 24 at the time so this is like your career is exploding and then what happens then?
Lyova Rosenthal was born in the mid-1920s. The granddaughter of Polish and Russian immigrants is famously inexact about her age. From her mid-20s to her mid-30s, the blacklist left her unemployable in TV and film, so she lied about her years, whatever they were, to remain viable as an actress.
@ Ronz and Light show: I have been looking at the two interviews that Light show has been repeatedly bringing up as "proof" that Grant was born in 1928, and have discvered he has been misrepresenting the contents of the sources, namely the two interviews with TCM's Robert Osborne and an interview with Gilbert Gottfried. I will reproduce them here for convenience:
By that time I was twenty-four when I was nominated for an Academy Award and I won the Cannes Film Festival Award for Best Actress... for this little teeny part in 1952
Grant: I was nominated and I was given the Best Actress Award in Cannes in 1952; Gottfried: So here you are and I think you were 24 at the time so this is like your career is exploding and then what happens then?
Here are some observations:
The very basis of Light show's assertion that Grant was born in 1928 is flawed. Both the interviews and her autobiography state she was was 24 when she was nominated for an oscar and when she won at Cannes. Even aside from the fact Grant is not a reliable source for her date of birth, taken at face value Grant's claims we can mathematically conclude she was born before May 1928 (either early 1928 or some time in 1927). I guess we could have saved ourselves a lot of time by checking Light show's sources, but I hope now he will give up on this doomed crusade to install 1928 when his own sources imply a 1927 date! Betty Logan ( talk) 22:26, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
I'm just waiting for others to respond. I don't see how we can meet BLP while asserting one specific year without confirmed birth records. -- Ronz ( talk) 15:36, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
I'm disappointed with the response. Shall we leave it open, try to get it closed, try to get more responses somehow, something else? Is there a standard way to try to get further response? -- Ronz ( talk) 23:28, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
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Not to rehash a topic that has clearly been discussed to death, but I came across an on-camera interview from April 2017 where the reporter asks Grant is asked what year she was born to put the question to rest, and she tells him she was "outed" as being born in 1925, and confirms that as her birth year. If the previous years she's given were to purposely make her seem younger, I cannot think of a reason why she would admit she was born in 1925 (as it dates her the oldest) if it weren't true. The link is here: [10] Not sure if it's worth anything, but I thought I'd put it here for consideration/documentation. It may prove useful at some point. -- Drown Soda ( talk) 05:54, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
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The records show she was born in 1924. ( ManyMoonsoons ( talk) 00:03, 9 September 2018 (UTC))
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A stray keystroke jumbled some of the filmography grid. Please help when you have a moment. Thank you :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lwottring ( talk • contribs) 22:03, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
An IP editor removed mention of Grant's awards and nomination from the first paragraph in the lead. The edit was subsequently reverted by Hipal on the grounds that it is part of her notability.
While I agree with Hipal that it is indeed part of her notability and should definitely be mentioned in the lead, it is worth noting that her awards are already mentioned in the second and third paragraphs (with the exception of the DGA directing award), so essentially the IP was simply eliminating some redundancy. I am of the opinion that the awards do not need to be mentioned twice in the lead. A good template for incorporating awards information into the lead can be seen at Laurence Olivier. I would suggest reinstating the IP's edit and adding in mention of the DGA award to the third paragraph. Betty Logan ( talk) 19:21, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
Re the reversion of my addition to the Factbox (31/1/21), it came from the Wiki page for Joseph Feury: He and Grant are the parents of Belinda Fioretti. - admittedly unreferenced. Valetude ( talk) 00:23, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
Hi Beeandzo and welcome to Wikipedia. I am enquiring about the latest edits you have made to this article. In the future, please note that if you change the content of an article, it is customary to add an edit summary explaining why in detail. In addition, it is very important to always cite ( WP:CITE) reliable sources ( WP:RS) when you add information to an article, especially when you are working on the biography of a living person. Here are a the edits I would like to ask you about:
Thank you. JBchrch ( talk) 15:09, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
I'm not entirely sure how to reference everything, sorry. But in terms of the first point: in her biography, I Said Yes To Everything, Lee Grant mentioned that she met Joseph Fioretti when her daughter was five years old, which would have been in 1961/1962. She also mentioned in the book that they didn't get married until much later. Her daughter Dinah also said that Lee and Joseph lived together "for 12 years" before they got married. www.youtu.be/cyczBjsVrCQ (at 5:17 in the video) The occupation of her mother is also from the book. She mentions in the book that her mother ran a day care as a profession. In reading a lot of reviews of the film, they were slightly more positive than "mixed." Beeandzo ( talk) 19:07, 15 March 2021 (UTC)Beeandzo
The result of the move request was: consensus against move. —usernamekiran (talk) 21:39, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
– no clear WP:PRIMARYTOPIC [15] Joeykai ( talk) 22:45, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
There has been several recent edits to the infobox ( [16], [17] & [18]) which can only be described as unconstructive. Grant has had a long, eventful, and notable career; she is primarily known for being an actress who has had a string of high-profile film and TV appearances, so narrowing her notability down to just a single film is not particularly helpful. If Grant had never made Shampoo she would still be an actress of some note.
Also, invoking the "awards" parameter in this manner is not consistent with how the parameter is used in other articles. It is generally used to link to standalone lists if one exists. You can see an example of its usage at Kate Winslet and Scarlett Johansson. Just because the parameter is there does not mean it has to be used. You need to consider how helpful the information is to the reader. For this reason it is better to stick to established precedents. Betty Logan ( talk) 21:53, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
We had a request from IRC to update Grant's year of birth based on this article. I am not an expert on the subject, and while the article does not appear on the surface to not be reliable I am also cognizant of the rather large footnote about the matter. Thus, posting here for further review. No need to ping, I'll keep an eye on this thread. Thanks. Primefac ( talk) 14:13, 22 April 2024 (UTC)