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The current lead section is way too long. I propose shortening it as so: User:Szqecs/sandbox Szqecs ( talk) 04:50, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
![]() | Dear Mr. {{
tmbox}}: What on earth is this article talking about? |
Since there is so much to cover, I think the earlier history can be removed from lead and left only in the history section: User:Szqecs/sandbox. Szqecs ( talk) 08:59, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
@ Kanguole: Can we removed pre-Qing sentences from the lead as well? It's too distant and can be left for the History section. Szqecs ( talk) 14:34, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
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This article refers to Taiwan as a "state", which is defined by H.J. De Blij in Human Geography (An AP class taught to American high school students) as "A politically organized territory that is administered by sovereign government and is recognized by a significant portion of the international community. A state has a defined territory, a permanent population, a government, and is recognized by other states."
Taiwan fits all parts of the definition of a state, however it is not recognized by a significant portion of the international community, as your own Wikipedia page on Taiwan's political status indicates. "On 25 October 1971, Resolution 2758 was passed by the UN General Assembly, which "decides to restore all its rights to the People's Republic of China and to recognize the representatives of its Government as the only legitimate representatives of China to the United Nations, and to expel forthwith the representatives of Chiang Kai-shek from the place which they unlawfully occupy at the United Nations and in all the organizations related to it." It should be noted that the Resolution 2758 merely dealt with the issue of Chinese representative in UN without any reference to the legal status of Taiwan. Multiple attempts by the Republic of China to rejoin the UN, no longer to represent all of China but just the people of the territories it governs, have not made it past committee, largely due to diplomatic maneuvering by the PRC, which claims Resolution 2758 has settled the matter. (See China and the United Nations.)" - Wikipedia, "Political Status of Taiwan" page.
Thus it cannot be classified as "Taiwan (Listeni/ˌtaɪˈwɑːn/), officially the Republic of China (ROC), is a state in East Asia.[12] Neighbors include the People's Republic of China (PRC, commonly known as "China") to the west, Japan to the northeast, and the Philippines to the south. Taiwan is the most populous non-UN state and the largest economy outside the UN."
I urge you to change this phrase, albeit small, to nation as quickly as possible, to spark less controversy in the on-going debates. Taiwan is it's own nation, however it doesn't fit the definition of a state because it has no international recognition.
Thanks Richardtigerlai ( talk) 02:33, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
Regarding this revert,
Kanguole 00:55, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
The two genetics papers (Hill et al and Bird et al) focus on the dispersal across island southeast Asia and Oceania – their discussion of Taiwan is peripheral, so a source that adresses the subject directly (like Jiao) is to be preferred. Still, both of them contradict "More than 8,000 years ago". Kanguole 18:11, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
I noticed in the last two days editor ILVTW has made many changes to the article with no discussion. I reverted to longstanding prose but was reverted again which is not wiki protocol. Per the changes, Taiwan no longer uses Taiwanese Mandarin as it's language, and it is no longer fully self-governing. Editors may want to check out these non-discussed edits. I'll leave it to others from here. Fyunck(click) ( talk) 22:56, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
@ ILVTW: There is a source pointing out that the territory of the ROC is disputed and therefore it is controversial to assert that the ROC meets the requirements of statehood. [1] My suggestion is that we keep the lead as what it was and add the statehood dispute in a section below in the article. -- Matt Smith ( talk) 01:01, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
References
Many have argued that Taiwan qualifies for statehood, since Taiwan has its own government that controls a population on the territory of the island of Taiwan and conducts its own foreign affairs, and since Taiwan has already been recognized in the past as an independent state. But to make such an argument, one has to reject China's claim of sovereignty over the territory of the Taiwan island, a claim that has been recognized by most states in the world.
References
{{
cite book}}
: |work=
ignored (
help)"Taiwan remains in limbo with regard to its sovereignty, as it meets only three of the four criteria of statehood under the 1933 Montevideo Convention. The island has a distinct territory,a distinct population, and a government that administers locally and does not answer to any other countries. However, it faces great difficulty meeting the fourth condition: the ability to engage in formal relations with other states."
Because the infobox says Taiwanese, could the demonym also include Chinese as well? The reason why it should be added because under the One China principle, both the Mainland/PRC and Taiwan/ROC are "one united China". 2607:FEA8:61F:F0AB:C158:98C2:1732:48EE ( talk) 00:35, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved per WP:SNOW. Come on people, stop wasting everyone's time. В²C ☎ 23:05, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
– Because the Chinese Wikipedia corresponds those, I also noticed from the Russian Wikipedia that it also has this and this as well as the Greek Wikipedia. I do not condone the WP:COMMONNAME but its better to change those articles to correspond with the other languages in the Wikipedia. Taiwan is just an island not an independent sovereign nation, but the Republic of China has been in existence since 1912 but the mainland is usurped by the PRC in 1949. 2607:FEA8:61F:F0AB:5C89:BBA5:CFF6:4F03 ( talk) 22:25, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's policy on article titles.Okay we generally ask IPs which take part in such discussions to stick to one stable IP to put the edits on the same level as other users who create accounts. In this case looks like the IP has canvassed legitimately participating editor Matt Smith twice from two different addresses /info/en/?search=Special:Contributions/2607:FEA8:61F:F0AB:C158:98C2:1732:48EE . Could the IP please declare what other addresses he/she has used? In ictu oculi ( talk) 16:46, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Because the article Republic of China (1949-71) redirects to Taiwan after World War II, I am proposing this article needs to be restored since it held the UN seat after it lost the mainland to the CCP until the PRC replaced the ROC. However, the Category:Treaties of the Republic of China (1949–71) article matches it all. Any suggestions or comments. 2607:FEA8:61F:F0AB:4EF:D86A:11F0:ECD1 ( talk) 19:54, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's policy on article titles.This was discussed at length in the deletion discussion: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Republic of China (1949–71). As can be seen from Taiwan after World War II the date 1971 is not an important landmark in Taiwan’s history. It’s just a footnote, one of many events in the transition from recognising Taiwan to recognising China, as the rightful representative of the China that existed before 1949.-- JohnBlackburne words deeds 20:25, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
Guys, this will be your answer if you read this per User:Khajidha's comment: "As the Communist forces headed for victory, Chiang began to shift troops and gold reserves to the island of Taiwan, 100 miles off the Chinese mainland. Two months after the inauguration of the People's Republic of China (PRC) in Beijing on October 1, 1949, Chiang and the Nationalists installed the rival Republic of China (ROC) as a government in exile on Taiwan." They would hold on to the UN seat until 1971. [4] 2607:FEA8:61F:F0AB:19CC:10C8:E1F7:57E8 ( talk) 21:05, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
Just above this RfC there is a section called "Multiple IP addresses" where a user is asked to declare other IP adresses they are using. That request concerns IP_2607:FEA8:61F:F0AB:C158:98C2:1732:48EE and IP_2607:FEA8:61F:F0AB:5C89:BBA5:CFF6:4F03. The proposer of the current RfC is IP_2607:FEA8:61F:F0AB:4EF:D86A:11F0:ECD1, which looks very much the same. In the entry just above here, that same IP address is given as a "signature" in an unsigned(!) comment by IP_135.23.144.238, which again is very similar to the users IP_135.23.144.12 and IP_135.23.144.153 that have tried to recreate this article after the AfD as seen here. I will repeat the request: Could the IP please declare what other addresses he/she has used? -- T*U ( talk) 08:08, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
On the Abkhazia infobox replacement, its time for the new infobox that I created based on the one User:Seryo93 made on the Abkhazia article. So the new infobox would be used for disputed territories in the future. Should the current infobox be replaced with a new one? Vote now. Supreme Dragon ( talk) 00:33, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
The proposal to update Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Chinese) to handle the China/Taiwan matter is under discussion. I invite you to comment there. -- George Ho ( talk) 23:38, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
Dear all. I invite you to join the discussion on renaming districts of Kaohsiung. @ George Ho:. Szqecs ( talk) 06:43, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
Dear all. I invite you to join a
centralized discussion about naming issues related to China and Taiwan.
Szqecs (
talk)
06:57, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
In this picture above, this map should be re-added since the green represents the Free area of the Republic of China and light green as historical or current claims. To User:Matt Smith will this more be appropriate since the ROC still claims the mainland but no actual control? 24.212.149.50 ( talk) 01:26, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
This talk page seems to have Wikipedia's focus for how we represent the (non-trivial) status of Taiwan, so I am posting here.
On one hand, the opening statement of this article describes Taiwan as a state and uses consistent with that the {{ infobox country}}.
However, Portal:Taiwan ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) (and its redirect Portal:Republic of China ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)) calls it a region.
Further, some Taiwan categories are subordinate to China, e.g. Category:Nuclear power stations in Taiwan and Category:Hydroelectric power stations in Taiwan, but others such as Category:Republic of China Army are not. One month ago Beagel asked for guidance with respect to the categories [ here], but no one has commented.
As such I find Wikipedia's description of the status of Taiwan to be inconsistent, and I think
1) the article and the portal on Taiwan should afford it the same status,
2) if that status is a state then its categories should not be subordinate to China, otherwise they should.
I would appreciate if anyone here can contribute to clearing up how these two points can be implemented (or else argue against them). Thanks. Lklundin ( talk) 08:57, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
Strictly speaking, the terms “Formosa”, “Taiwan”, and “Republic of China” are not synonymous. “The Republic of China” is the English name of a sovereign state, which is recognized by more than twenty members of the United Nations, though not by Japan. Taiwan is a province of China, which is recognized as such by both of the governments which lay claim to it, namely, the ROC and the PRC (People's Republic of China). The territory of Taiwan consists entirely of islands, of which the largest is Formosa, which name was given it by sixteenth century Portuguese explorers, and which has been used in English-language writing thereafter. In addition to Formosa, the province comprises the Pescadores or Penghu Islands 澎湖群島 to the west of Formosa, Orchid Island 蘭嶼 and Green Island 緑島 to the east of Formosa, and a number of smaller islands. In English-language writing and speech, both Chinese governments use the name "Taiwan" ambiguously, referring either to the province 台湾省 or to its primary island, Formosa 美麗島. Another difficulty is that "China" and "Taiwan" are often used to distinguish, respectively, PRC-controlled territory from ROC-controlled territory; however, this too is misleading usage, for the territory controlled by the ROC is actually greater than the extent of the province of Taiwan. In addition to Taiwan, the ROC controls island groups near the Chinese mainland which are traditionally part of mainland provinces. The use of “Taiwan” to mean Formosa, as well as the de facto ROC control of areas beyond Formosa and the Pescadores, is reflected in the ROC’s official name as a member of the APEC, which is “the Territory of Taiwan, Penghu, Kinmen, and Matsu”.This is no clear cut description of what Taiwan is. -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 20:47, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
@ Kanguole:I perceive that note is important enough to be put on the first paragraph. Hope you could understand. Thank you! =) -- It's gonna be awesome!# Talk♬ 10:27, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
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Change GDP total from "$1.147 trillion" to "$1,147 trillion" Bosung90 ( talk) 08:26, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
GDP data are made in 2014,Why not use World Economic Outlook Database, April 2017,IMF?? These data are old and should be updated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.142.115.27 ( talk) 11:41, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Splitting the article Politics of the Republic of China is proposed at Talk:Politics of the Republic of China#RfC, where I invite you to discuss. -- George Ho ( talk) 23:43, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
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The major threat to the ROC is of course invasion from the Communist-controlled mainland. That could be simply stated. It is not the same as "constant threat of invasion by the PRC under the Anti-Secession Law of the People's Republic of China". It is not a threat of invasion by or under legislation, but military force. Royalcourtier ( talk) 02:20, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
The move request is made at Talk:List of political parties in the Republic of China#Requested move 24 May 2017, which is ongoing. -- George Ho ( talk) 19:41, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
Hi there. Over at Same-sex marriage in Taiwan, an anon user has gone through the article replacing references to Taiwan as a "country" with the word "province". As I'm sure you guys have debated this one to death, could someone clarify what the most accurate/consensus terminology would be in this case? I considered "island" as more neutral, but it doesn't work in the sentence "would become the first island in Asia to legalise...", among others. Thanks. Jdcooper ( talk) 10:35, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
I noticed that ROC may not be confined to Taiwan island when we talk about neighbors of ROC, islands like the Taiping Islands may be considerate so that the S.R.Vietnam and the R.O.Korea should also be regard as neighed states. Please check out the Wikipedia item of the Chinese version. When we talk about ROC and PRC, Mainland China may not be less offensive, since considerable Taiwanese regard themselves as Chinese at the same time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wkbreaker ( talk • contribs) 15:16, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
Compare " Ireland" Vs. the " Republic of Ireland", the Republic of Ireland article exist separately from the Ireland article despite "Ireland" being the WP:COMMONNAME for the country, I'm not suggesting changing other articles with "Taiwan" or "Taiwanese" in the name to "Republic of China", but this article clearly denotes a political state and the Republic of China is a sovereign state, before there used to be a "China" article explaining the situation, and for the same reason that "Korea" is the WP:COMMONNAME of the Republic of Korea doesn't mean that we would have to change it. In fact the current title gives WP:UNDUE weight to both Taiwanese independence, and the One-China policy and for this same reason we refrain from calling the Republic of Ireland simply "Ireland", or the Republic of Korea simply as "Korea" both the People's Republic of China and the Republic of China are sovereign states called "China" no matter how often the media repeats that the ROC is called "Taiwan" doesn't make it true. The Tylenol page also directs users to the uncommonly used name (in the English-speaking world) "paracetamol" or qn obscure band, for some reason WP:COMMONNAME is never applied to any other political entity other than here. -- 42.112.158.223 ( talk)
"Ireland" and "Korea" are ambiguous terms, "Taiwan" is not. Szqecs ( talk) 22:10, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
Fact 1: RoC (Republic of China) rules parts of Fujian Province as well (and of course entirety of Taiwan province), so this current article equating Taiwan province to RoC is pretty ridiculous. What about Penghu and Jinmen? these counties are also ruled by RoC and they are part of Fujian province.
Fact 2: Taiwan province actually has a provincial governor, which is a different and separate political position vs President of RoC. President of RoC has much more power than the Taiwan governor. If Taiwan = RoC, how would this work? - Ranmin ( talk) 05:40, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
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At "Political and legal status" there's a timeline of history, change "China" to " Mainland China" as it implies that the Republic of China isn't "China". Further "Mainland China" would be less ambiguous. 1.55.183.244 ( talk) 07:25, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
To remove confusion stated by other editors above, I propose to rename this page to Republic of China (Taiwan). Please express your views below ELHK | 〒 13:48, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
Why was it closed so suddenly? Anyhow Wikipedia:COMMONNAME does not apply to misnomers, see Talk:Duchy of Warsaw#Move to Grand Duchy of Warsaw. -- Codename Alex ( talk) 07:12, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
Look up the source for Taiwan's Ethnic Group in the wikipedia page. It is called "Republic of China Yearbook 2014" and it specifically uses the term "Han Chinese". Stop changing that. Han Chinese is the correct term. -- ExGuardianNinja ( talk) 17:07, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
BECAUSE IT SAYS "HAN CHINESE" IN THE SOURCE! LOOK UP THE SOURCE THAT IS USED FOR THE CITATION 5 (THE CITATION FOR TAWIAN'S ETHNIC COMPOSITION! THERE IS A PDF OF THE REPUBLIC OF CHINA YEARBOOK 2014 WITH ALL OF THE PAGES. ON PAGE 36, IN THE ETHNICITY CATEGORY, "HAN CHINESE" IS USED! IF YOU THINK I AM LYING WHY DON'T YOU TAKE THE TIME TO CLICK THE LINK AND LOOK UP PAGE 36 IN THE REPUBLIC OF CHINA YEARBOOK 2014? I WILL EVEN PUT THE LINK HERE MYSELF!
http://www.ey.gov.tw/Upload/UserFiles/YB%202014%20all%20100dpi.pdf GO TO PAGE 36 ON IT! --
ExGuardianNinja (
talk)
19:48, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
I think you are missing the point here. If it is supported by the source, then you should use it. If you were truly unbiased, you would accept whatever the source says. -- ExGuardianNinja ( talk) 06:37, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
@ ExGuardianNinja: The ROC yearbook is a primary source. Primary sources don't carry the same weight as secondary ones, particularly for challenged claims. Szqecs ( talk) 08:17, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
The following changes are made to the lead section:
Szqecs ( talk) 00:56, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Which map or maps should be used in the infobox? Recent proposals are a map showing administered areas only, and a map showing both administered and claimed areas. Kanguole 13:04, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
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I inserted this above in 'change to lead'. I have copied it here under a specific heading so it is not lost in obscurity.
The consensus was, in your own words: "Alright I think we have a consensus to use "state" without link. Szqecs (talk) 16:55, 14 June 2016 (UTC)" This followed a discussion about state v country (by a small group). The lead sentence covers a little bit more than state v country, much of which is POV. Therefore, there is no consensus relating to what to call this place. Taking an even wider view, this article is a cluster of different articles covering different topics, all squashed together. A complete rethink is needed. I suggest we try to obtain a consensus on 1/ what this article is about, and 2/ what it should be called. Please remember, we are not undoing a consensus, because one does not exist: we are creating consensus. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 09:35, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
@ Berting Li: The lead sentence was established by consensus. "Taiwan, officially the Republic of China (ROC), is a state in East Asia." Changes to this should be discussed first. Szqecs ( talk) 00:31, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
The consensus was, in your own words: "Alright I think we have a consensus to use "state" without link. Szqecs (talk) 16:55, 14 June 2016 (UTC)" This followed a discussion about state v country (by a small group). The lead sentence covers a little bit more than state v country, much of which is POV. Therefore, there is no consensus relating to what to call this place. Taking an even wider view, this article is a cluster of different articles covering different topics, all squashed together. A complete rethink is needed. I suggest we try to obtain a consensus on 1/ what this article is about, and 2/ what it should be called. Please remember, we are not undoing a consensus, because one does not exist: we are creating consensus. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 09:32, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
If you mean an independent entity answerable to nobody else then 'sovereign state' is all that is needed. Is "Taiwan" a sovereign state? Not according to its own government, or to mainland China, or to numerous other UN members. The term 'self governing island' appeals to me because it explains the defacto reality without giving opinion. Common sense says that there is no point creating an article that defines 'Taiwan' as a sovereign state' when the govt of Taiwan itself disagrees. However, seeing as that is what you, and some others, have tried to do with this consensus, then you will have to accept a multitude of editorial problems, which is what is happening. This consensus amounts to nothing more than POV and should be regarded as invalid because it contradicts a basic WP principle. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 02:27, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
Now, before you start accusing me or any other editor of talking nonsense, please consider that you will inevitably get a whole host of confusing discussions if you insist on trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. That is what we are doing by treating Taiwan and ROC as the same. Please remember that this article is meant to be encyclopedic, not for a travel brochure. Wikipedia readers deserve better. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 03:05, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
@
Berting Li: I agree with you that not everybody in the world agrees with the status of Taiwan as a state. I'm not just talking about the PRC alone, but other countries including in Southeast Asia and the rest of the world, do not agree that Taiwan is an independent state. As for the suggested wording "Taiwan, officially the Republic of China (ROC), is a state in East Asia.", I think we all can agree that this statement is disputed and there is no consensus to include such wording in the official page.
So since there is no consensus, if that statement were to be included in the official page, we should at least mention that this article is disputed and the facts therein may contain inaccuracies, and invite contributions from the community to make this article more neutral. A notice on Wikipedia's policy of speaking from a neutral point of view (NPOV) should be included prominently on the article.
Otherwise, I suggest that we revert the wording to a previous version that abides by Wikipedia's NPOV policy.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Katie.lim ( talk • contribs) 06:09, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
Taiwan is originally the name of a geographic region. Republic of China is a state. This article should be related only to Taiwan which is currently so. However, it is totally confusing when one types Republic of China into the search box and redirected to Taiwan. Republic of China is a state established in 1912 in mainland China with completely no relation to Taiwan before 1945, and has only become the de-facto state of Taiwan since 1949.- Miklcct ( talk) 14:18, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
We run a grave risk in assuming that there are two separate states - China and Taiwan. That amounts to twisting the facts to suit a POV. There is only one China. The complication is that it has two governments that happen to control two separate parts of China. That may not suit some of the above editors who want to create the artificial situation of two states because 'most people think' there are two states. That assumption is simplistic in the extreme and will only lead to contradictions and confusion. The average reader of WP deserves better. This article is (I think) about the part of China that is a few islands off the east coast. It is not about the actual island of Taiwan and it is not about the ROC, most of which is not controlled by the govt of the ROC. In that sense both headings - Taiwan and ROC - are incorrect. We need to think harder than just to take the easy option of choosing either Taiwan, the ROC, or a combination of both. Perhaps the term 'Chinese Taipei', horribly artificial though it is, does have some merit because it does identify the part of China that this article is about without making any incorrect factual assumptions. Both "Taiwan" and ROC" could be redirected here. Consensus was created years ago? Well, consensus can be wrong. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 20:44, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
References
Many have argued that Taiwan qualifies for statehood, since Taiwan has its own government that controls a population on the territory of the island of Taiwan and conducts its own foreign affairs, and since Taiwan has already been recognized in the past as an independent state. But to make such an argument, one has to reject China's claim of sovereignty over the territory of the Taiwan island, a claim that has been recognized by most states in the world.
Nothing is going to happen as a result of this discussion, but I would like to point out Republic of China (1912–49) as the best existing alternate redirect target. Power~enwiki ( talk) 03:53, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
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Taiwan is province of China and not a state or country 72.71.236.221 ( talk) 10:53, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
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Please change the caption "The ruling DPP has traditionally leaned in favour of Taiwan independence and rejects the so-called "One-China policy"." to "The ruling DPP has traditionally leaned in favour of Taiwan independence and rejects the One-China policy." (i.e. removal of "so-called" and the quotation marks surrounding One-China policy.), given that the phrase "so-called" is quite subjective and not neutral. Per WP:NPOV:"All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias". -- 123.161.171.194 ( talk) 02:54, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
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Archive 20 | ← | Archive 23 | Archive 24 | Archive 25 | Archive 26 | Archive 27 | → | Archive 30 |
The current lead section is way too long. I propose shortening it as so: User:Szqecs/sandbox Szqecs ( talk) 04:50, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
![]() | Dear Mr. {{
tmbox}}: What on earth is this article talking about? |
Since there is so much to cover, I think the earlier history can be removed from lead and left only in the history section: User:Szqecs/sandbox. Szqecs ( talk) 08:59, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
@ Kanguole: Can we removed pre-Qing sentences from the lead as well? It's too distant and can be left for the History section. Szqecs ( talk) 14:34, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
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This article refers to Taiwan as a "state", which is defined by H.J. De Blij in Human Geography (An AP class taught to American high school students) as "A politically organized territory that is administered by sovereign government and is recognized by a significant portion of the international community. A state has a defined territory, a permanent population, a government, and is recognized by other states."
Taiwan fits all parts of the definition of a state, however it is not recognized by a significant portion of the international community, as your own Wikipedia page on Taiwan's political status indicates. "On 25 October 1971, Resolution 2758 was passed by the UN General Assembly, which "decides to restore all its rights to the People's Republic of China and to recognize the representatives of its Government as the only legitimate representatives of China to the United Nations, and to expel forthwith the representatives of Chiang Kai-shek from the place which they unlawfully occupy at the United Nations and in all the organizations related to it." It should be noted that the Resolution 2758 merely dealt with the issue of Chinese representative in UN without any reference to the legal status of Taiwan. Multiple attempts by the Republic of China to rejoin the UN, no longer to represent all of China but just the people of the territories it governs, have not made it past committee, largely due to diplomatic maneuvering by the PRC, which claims Resolution 2758 has settled the matter. (See China and the United Nations.)" - Wikipedia, "Political Status of Taiwan" page.
Thus it cannot be classified as "Taiwan (Listeni/ˌtaɪˈwɑːn/), officially the Republic of China (ROC), is a state in East Asia.[12] Neighbors include the People's Republic of China (PRC, commonly known as "China") to the west, Japan to the northeast, and the Philippines to the south. Taiwan is the most populous non-UN state and the largest economy outside the UN."
I urge you to change this phrase, albeit small, to nation as quickly as possible, to spark less controversy in the on-going debates. Taiwan is it's own nation, however it doesn't fit the definition of a state because it has no international recognition.
Thanks Richardtigerlai ( talk) 02:33, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
Regarding this revert,
Kanguole 00:55, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
The two genetics papers (Hill et al and Bird et al) focus on the dispersal across island southeast Asia and Oceania – their discussion of Taiwan is peripheral, so a source that adresses the subject directly (like Jiao) is to be preferred. Still, both of them contradict "More than 8,000 years ago". Kanguole 18:11, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
I noticed in the last two days editor ILVTW has made many changes to the article with no discussion. I reverted to longstanding prose but was reverted again which is not wiki protocol. Per the changes, Taiwan no longer uses Taiwanese Mandarin as it's language, and it is no longer fully self-governing. Editors may want to check out these non-discussed edits. I'll leave it to others from here. Fyunck(click) ( talk) 22:56, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
@ ILVTW: There is a source pointing out that the territory of the ROC is disputed and therefore it is controversial to assert that the ROC meets the requirements of statehood. [1] My suggestion is that we keep the lead as what it was and add the statehood dispute in a section below in the article. -- Matt Smith ( talk) 01:01, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
References
Many have argued that Taiwan qualifies for statehood, since Taiwan has its own government that controls a population on the territory of the island of Taiwan and conducts its own foreign affairs, and since Taiwan has already been recognized in the past as an independent state. But to make such an argument, one has to reject China's claim of sovereignty over the territory of the Taiwan island, a claim that has been recognized by most states in the world.
References
{{
cite book}}
: |work=
ignored (
help)"Taiwan remains in limbo with regard to its sovereignty, as it meets only three of the four criteria of statehood under the 1933 Montevideo Convention. The island has a distinct territory,a distinct population, and a government that administers locally and does not answer to any other countries. However, it faces great difficulty meeting the fourth condition: the ability to engage in formal relations with other states."
Because the infobox says Taiwanese, could the demonym also include Chinese as well? The reason why it should be added because under the One China principle, both the Mainland/PRC and Taiwan/ROC are "one united China". 2607:FEA8:61F:F0AB:C158:98C2:1732:48EE ( talk) 00:35, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved per WP:SNOW. Come on people, stop wasting everyone's time. В²C ☎ 23:05, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
– Because the Chinese Wikipedia corresponds those, I also noticed from the Russian Wikipedia that it also has this and this as well as the Greek Wikipedia. I do not condone the WP:COMMONNAME but its better to change those articles to correspond with the other languages in the Wikipedia. Taiwan is just an island not an independent sovereign nation, but the Republic of China has been in existence since 1912 but the mainland is usurped by the PRC in 1949. 2607:FEA8:61F:F0AB:5C89:BBA5:CFF6:4F03 ( talk) 22:25, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
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Wikipedia's policy on article titles.Okay we generally ask IPs which take part in such discussions to stick to one stable IP to put the edits on the same level as other users who create accounts. In this case looks like the IP has canvassed legitimately participating editor Matt Smith twice from two different addresses /info/en/?search=Special:Contributions/2607:FEA8:61F:F0AB:C158:98C2:1732:48EE . Could the IP please declare what other addresses he/she has used? In ictu oculi ( talk) 16:46, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Because the article Republic of China (1949-71) redirects to Taiwan after World War II, I am proposing this article needs to be restored since it held the UN seat after it lost the mainland to the CCP until the PRC replaced the ROC. However, the Category:Treaties of the Republic of China (1949–71) article matches it all. Any suggestions or comments. 2607:FEA8:61F:F0AB:4EF:D86A:11F0:ECD1 ( talk) 19:54, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
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Wikipedia's policy on article titles.This was discussed at length in the deletion discussion: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Republic of China (1949–71). As can be seen from Taiwan after World War II the date 1971 is not an important landmark in Taiwan’s history. It’s just a footnote, one of many events in the transition from recognising Taiwan to recognising China, as the rightful representative of the China that existed before 1949.-- JohnBlackburne words deeds 20:25, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
Guys, this will be your answer if you read this per User:Khajidha's comment: "As the Communist forces headed for victory, Chiang began to shift troops and gold reserves to the island of Taiwan, 100 miles off the Chinese mainland. Two months after the inauguration of the People's Republic of China (PRC) in Beijing on October 1, 1949, Chiang and the Nationalists installed the rival Republic of China (ROC) as a government in exile on Taiwan." They would hold on to the UN seat until 1971. [4] 2607:FEA8:61F:F0AB:19CC:10C8:E1F7:57E8 ( talk) 21:05, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
Just above this RfC there is a section called "Multiple IP addresses" where a user is asked to declare other IP adresses they are using. That request concerns IP_2607:FEA8:61F:F0AB:C158:98C2:1732:48EE and IP_2607:FEA8:61F:F0AB:5C89:BBA5:CFF6:4F03. The proposer of the current RfC is IP_2607:FEA8:61F:F0AB:4EF:D86A:11F0:ECD1, which looks very much the same. In the entry just above here, that same IP address is given as a "signature" in an unsigned(!) comment by IP_135.23.144.238, which again is very similar to the users IP_135.23.144.12 and IP_135.23.144.153 that have tried to recreate this article after the AfD as seen here. I will repeat the request: Could the IP please declare what other addresses he/she has used? -- T*U ( talk) 08:08, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
On the Abkhazia infobox replacement, its time for the new infobox that I created based on the one User:Seryo93 made on the Abkhazia article. So the new infobox would be used for disputed territories in the future. Should the current infobox be replaced with a new one? Vote now. Supreme Dragon ( talk) 00:33, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
The proposal to update Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Chinese) to handle the China/Taiwan matter is under discussion. I invite you to comment there. -- George Ho ( talk) 23:38, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
Dear all. I invite you to join the discussion on renaming districts of Kaohsiung. @ George Ho:. Szqecs ( talk) 06:43, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
Dear all. I invite you to join a
centralized discussion about naming issues related to China and Taiwan.
Szqecs (
talk)
06:57, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
In this picture above, this map should be re-added since the green represents the Free area of the Republic of China and light green as historical or current claims. To User:Matt Smith will this more be appropriate since the ROC still claims the mainland but no actual control? 24.212.149.50 ( talk) 01:26, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
This talk page seems to have Wikipedia's focus for how we represent the (non-trivial) status of Taiwan, so I am posting here.
On one hand, the opening statement of this article describes Taiwan as a state and uses consistent with that the {{ infobox country}}.
However, Portal:Taiwan ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) (and its redirect Portal:Republic of China ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)) calls it a region.
Further, some Taiwan categories are subordinate to China, e.g. Category:Nuclear power stations in Taiwan and Category:Hydroelectric power stations in Taiwan, but others such as Category:Republic of China Army are not. One month ago Beagel asked for guidance with respect to the categories [ here], but no one has commented.
As such I find Wikipedia's description of the status of Taiwan to be inconsistent, and I think
1) the article and the portal on Taiwan should afford it the same status,
2) if that status is a state then its categories should not be subordinate to China, otherwise they should.
I would appreciate if anyone here can contribute to clearing up how these two points can be implemented (or else argue against them). Thanks. Lklundin ( talk) 08:57, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
Strictly speaking, the terms “Formosa”, “Taiwan”, and “Republic of China” are not synonymous. “The Republic of China” is the English name of a sovereign state, which is recognized by more than twenty members of the United Nations, though not by Japan. Taiwan is a province of China, which is recognized as such by both of the governments which lay claim to it, namely, the ROC and the PRC (People's Republic of China). The territory of Taiwan consists entirely of islands, of which the largest is Formosa, which name was given it by sixteenth century Portuguese explorers, and which has been used in English-language writing thereafter. In addition to Formosa, the province comprises the Pescadores or Penghu Islands 澎湖群島 to the west of Formosa, Orchid Island 蘭嶼 and Green Island 緑島 to the east of Formosa, and a number of smaller islands. In English-language writing and speech, both Chinese governments use the name "Taiwan" ambiguously, referring either to the province 台湾省 or to its primary island, Formosa 美麗島. Another difficulty is that "China" and "Taiwan" are often used to distinguish, respectively, PRC-controlled territory from ROC-controlled territory; however, this too is misleading usage, for the territory controlled by the ROC is actually greater than the extent of the province of Taiwan. In addition to Taiwan, the ROC controls island groups near the Chinese mainland which are traditionally part of mainland provinces. The use of “Taiwan” to mean Formosa, as well as the de facto ROC control of areas beyond Formosa and the Pescadores, is reflected in the ROC’s official name as a member of the APEC, which is “the Territory of Taiwan, Penghu, Kinmen, and Matsu”.This is no clear cut description of what Taiwan is. -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 20:47, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
@ Kanguole:I perceive that note is important enough to be put on the first paragraph. Hope you could understand. Thank you! =) -- It's gonna be awesome!# Talk♬ 10:27, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
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Change GDP total from "$1.147 trillion" to "$1,147 trillion" Bosung90 ( talk) 08:26, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
GDP data are made in 2014,Why not use World Economic Outlook Database, April 2017,IMF?? These data are old and should be updated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.142.115.27 ( talk) 11:41, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Splitting the article Politics of the Republic of China is proposed at Talk:Politics of the Republic of China#RfC, where I invite you to discuss. -- George Ho ( talk) 23:43, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
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The major threat to the ROC is of course invasion from the Communist-controlled mainland. That could be simply stated. It is not the same as "constant threat of invasion by the PRC under the Anti-Secession Law of the People's Republic of China". It is not a threat of invasion by or under legislation, but military force. Royalcourtier ( talk) 02:20, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
The move request is made at Talk:List of political parties in the Republic of China#Requested move 24 May 2017, which is ongoing. -- George Ho ( talk) 19:41, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
Hi there. Over at Same-sex marriage in Taiwan, an anon user has gone through the article replacing references to Taiwan as a "country" with the word "province". As I'm sure you guys have debated this one to death, could someone clarify what the most accurate/consensus terminology would be in this case? I considered "island" as more neutral, but it doesn't work in the sentence "would become the first island in Asia to legalise...", among others. Thanks. Jdcooper ( talk) 10:35, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
I noticed that ROC may not be confined to Taiwan island when we talk about neighbors of ROC, islands like the Taiping Islands may be considerate so that the S.R.Vietnam and the R.O.Korea should also be regard as neighed states. Please check out the Wikipedia item of the Chinese version. When we talk about ROC and PRC, Mainland China may not be less offensive, since considerable Taiwanese regard themselves as Chinese at the same time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wkbreaker ( talk • contribs) 15:16, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
Compare " Ireland" Vs. the " Republic of Ireland", the Republic of Ireland article exist separately from the Ireland article despite "Ireland" being the WP:COMMONNAME for the country, I'm not suggesting changing other articles with "Taiwan" or "Taiwanese" in the name to "Republic of China", but this article clearly denotes a political state and the Republic of China is a sovereign state, before there used to be a "China" article explaining the situation, and for the same reason that "Korea" is the WP:COMMONNAME of the Republic of Korea doesn't mean that we would have to change it. In fact the current title gives WP:UNDUE weight to both Taiwanese independence, and the One-China policy and for this same reason we refrain from calling the Republic of Ireland simply "Ireland", or the Republic of Korea simply as "Korea" both the People's Republic of China and the Republic of China are sovereign states called "China" no matter how often the media repeats that the ROC is called "Taiwan" doesn't make it true. The Tylenol page also directs users to the uncommonly used name (in the English-speaking world) "paracetamol" or qn obscure band, for some reason WP:COMMONNAME is never applied to any other political entity other than here. -- 42.112.158.223 ( talk)
"Ireland" and "Korea" are ambiguous terms, "Taiwan" is not. Szqecs ( talk) 22:10, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
Fact 1: RoC (Republic of China) rules parts of Fujian Province as well (and of course entirety of Taiwan province), so this current article equating Taiwan province to RoC is pretty ridiculous. What about Penghu and Jinmen? these counties are also ruled by RoC and they are part of Fujian province.
Fact 2: Taiwan province actually has a provincial governor, which is a different and separate political position vs President of RoC. President of RoC has much more power than the Taiwan governor. If Taiwan = RoC, how would this work? - Ranmin ( talk) 05:40, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
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At "Political and legal status" there's a timeline of history, change "China" to " Mainland China" as it implies that the Republic of China isn't "China". Further "Mainland China" would be less ambiguous. 1.55.183.244 ( talk) 07:25, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
To remove confusion stated by other editors above, I propose to rename this page to Republic of China (Taiwan). Please express your views below ELHK | 〒 13:48, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
Why was it closed so suddenly? Anyhow Wikipedia:COMMONNAME does not apply to misnomers, see Talk:Duchy of Warsaw#Move to Grand Duchy of Warsaw. -- Codename Alex ( talk) 07:12, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
Look up the source for Taiwan's Ethnic Group in the wikipedia page. It is called "Republic of China Yearbook 2014" and it specifically uses the term "Han Chinese". Stop changing that. Han Chinese is the correct term. -- ExGuardianNinja ( talk) 17:07, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
BECAUSE IT SAYS "HAN CHINESE" IN THE SOURCE! LOOK UP THE SOURCE THAT IS USED FOR THE CITATION 5 (THE CITATION FOR TAWIAN'S ETHNIC COMPOSITION! THERE IS A PDF OF THE REPUBLIC OF CHINA YEARBOOK 2014 WITH ALL OF THE PAGES. ON PAGE 36, IN THE ETHNICITY CATEGORY, "HAN CHINESE" IS USED! IF YOU THINK I AM LYING WHY DON'T YOU TAKE THE TIME TO CLICK THE LINK AND LOOK UP PAGE 36 IN THE REPUBLIC OF CHINA YEARBOOK 2014? I WILL EVEN PUT THE LINK HERE MYSELF!
http://www.ey.gov.tw/Upload/UserFiles/YB%202014%20all%20100dpi.pdf GO TO PAGE 36 ON IT! --
ExGuardianNinja (
talk)
19:48, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
I think you are missing the point here. If it is supported by the source, then you should use it. If you were truly unbiased, you would accept whatever the source says. -- ExGuardianNinja ( talk) 06:37, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
@ ExGuardianNinja: The ROC yearbook is a primary source. Primary sources don't carry the same weight as secondary ones, particularly for challenged claims. Szqecs ( talk) 08:17, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
The following changes are made to the lead section:
Szqecs ( talk) 00:56, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Which map or maps should be used in the infobox? Recent proposals are a map showing administered areas only, and a map showing both administered and claimed areas. Kanguole 13:04, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
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I inserted this above in 'change to lead'. I have copied it here under a specific heading so it is not lost in obscurity.
The consensus was, in your own words: "Alright I think we have a consensus to use "state" without link. Szqecs (talk) 16:55, 14 June 2016 (UTC)" This followed a discussion about state v country (by a small group). The lead sentence covers a little bit more than state v country, much of which is POV. Therefore, there is no consensus relating to what to call this place. Taking an even wider view, this article is a cluster of different articles covering different topics, all squashed together. A complete rethink is needed. I suggest we try to obtain a consensus on 1/ what this article is about, and 2/ what it should be called. Please remember, we are not undoing a consensus, because one does not exist: we are creating consensus. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 09:35, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
@ Berting Li: The lead sentence was established by consensus. "Taiwan, officially the Republic of China (ROC), is a state in East Asia." Changes to this should be discussed first. Szqecs ( talk) 00:31, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
The consensus was, in your own words: "Alright I think we have a consensus to use "state" without link. Szqecs (talk) 16:55, 14 June 2016 (UTC)" This followed a discussion about state v country (by a small group). The lead sentence covers a little bit more than state v country, much of which is POV. Therefore, there is no consensus relating to what to call this place. Taking an even wider view, this article is a cluster of different articles covering different topics, all squashed together. A complete rethink is needed. I suggest we try to obtain a consensus on 1/ what this article is about, and 2/ what it should be called. Please remember, we are not undoing a consensus, because one does not exist: we are creating consensus. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 09:32, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
If you mean an independent entity answerable to nobody else then 'sovereign state' is all that is needed. Is "Taiwan" a sovereign state? Not according to its own government, or to mainland China, or to numerous other UN members. The term 'self governing island' appeals to me because it explains the defacto reality without giving opinion. Common sense says that there is no point creating an article that defines 'Taiwan' as a sovereign state' when the govt of Taiwan itself disagrees. However, seeing as that is what you, and some others, have tried to do with this consensus, then you will have to accept a multitude of editorial problems, which is what is happening. This consensus amounts to nothing more than POV and should be regarded as invalid because it contradicts a basic WP principle. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 02:27, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
Now, before you start accusing me or any other editor of talking nonsense, please consider that you will inevitably get a whole host of confusing discussions if you insist on trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. That is what we are doing by treating Taiwan and ROC as the same. Please remember that this article is meant to be encyclopedic, not for a travel brochure. Wikipedia readers deserve better. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 03:05, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
@
Berting Li: I agree with you that not everybody in the world agrees with the status of Taiwan as a state. I'm not just talking about the PRC alone, but other countries including in Southeast Asia and the rest of the world, do not agree that Taiwan is an independent state. As for the suggested wording "Taiwan, officially the Republic of China (ROC), is a state in East Asia.", I think we all can agree that this statement is disputed and there is no consensus to include such wording in the official page.
So since there is no consensus, if that statement were to be included in the official page, we should at least mention that this article is disputed and the facts therein may contain inaccuracies, and invite contributions from the community to make this article more neutral. A notice on Wikipedia's policy of speaking from a neutral point of view (NPOV) should be included prominently on the article.
Otherwise, I suggest that we revert the wording to a previous version that abides by Wikipedia's NPOV policy.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Katie.lim ( talk • contribs) 06:09, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
Taiwan is originally the name of a geographic region. Republic of China is a state. This article should be related only to Taiwan which is currently so. However, it is totally confusing when one types Republic of China into the search box and redirected to Taiwan. Republic of China is a state established in 1912 in mainland China with completely no relation to Taiwan before 1945, and has only become the de-facto state of Taiwan since 1949.- Miklcct ( talk) 14:18, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
We run a grave risk in assuming that there are two separate states - China and Taiwan. That amounts to twisting the facts to suit a POV. There is only one China. The complication is that it has two governments that happen to control two separate parts of China. That may not suit some of the above editors who want to create the artificial situation of two states because 'most people think' there are two states. That assumption is simplistic in the extreme and will only lead to contradictions and confusion. The average reader of WP deserves better. This article is (I think) about the part of China that is a few islands off the east coast. It is not about the actual island of Taiwan and it is not about the ROC, most of which is not controlled by the govt of the ROC. In that sense both headings - Taiwan and ROC - are incorrect. We need to think harder than just to take the easy option of choosing either Taiwan, the ROC, or a combination of both. Perhaps the term 'Chinese Taipei', horribly artificial though it is, does have some merit because it does identify the part of China that this article is about without making any incorrect factual assumptions. Both "Taiwan" and ROC" could be redirected here. Consensus was created years ago? Well, consensus can be wrong. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 20:44, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
References
Many have argued that Taiwan qualifies for statehood, since Taiwan has its own government that controls a population on the territory of the island of Taiwan and conducts its own foreign affairs, and since Taiwan has already been recognized in the past as an independent state. But to make such an argument, one has to reject China's claim of sovereignty over the territory of the Taiwan island, a claim that has been recognized by most states in the world.
Nothing is going to happen as a result of this discussion, but I would like to point out Republic of China (1912–49) as the best existing alternate redirect target. Power~enwiki ( talk) 03:53, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
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Taiwan is province of China and not a state or country 72.71.236.221 ( talk) 10:53, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
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Please change the caption "The ruling DPP has traditionally leaned in favour of Taiwan independence and rejects the so-called "One-China policy"." to "The ruling DPP has traditionally leaned in favour of Taiwan independence and rejects the One-China policy." (i.e. removal of "so-called" and the quotation marks surrounding One-China policy.), given that the phrase "so-called" is quite subjective and not neutral. Per WP:NPOV:"All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias". -- 123.161.171.194 ( talk) 02:54, 22 September 2017 (UTC)