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Mostly in reference to this edit, by @ All Hallow's Wraith:. The Cohen source only explicitly mentions Sennott is not Jewish (and that Agron is Jewish but she "plays the WASP-iest character"); it does infer that Deferrari isn't Jewish, but it doesn't say it, and it doesn't mention Draper's ethnic background or faith at all (though IndieWire does). While we could look for other sources (and if you're doing it, Seligman herself recently said in an interview that Gordon isn't religious and it's known Melamed was raised secular, the sentence should probably include most of the cast), it might be WP:OR and WP:SYNTH to be pointing it out when the source where Seligman talks about casting only focuses on Sennott not being Jewish. What do people think? Perhaps it's useful to note but I'd like to see a source that connects the cast's Jewishness with the movie if we're going to put it in the same sentence (also discuss the merits of a separate sentence). Kingsif ( talk) 10:13, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
Also pinging @
LaserLegs:, my favorite
WP:DETAIL stickler, for that policy view on if it's a relevant level of detail - and you could comb the rest of the article if you're willing to read about film :) ?
Kingsif (
talk)
10:36, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
As another aside, a related fact was used for a December 2020 DYK about the lead actress, as something intriguing about her, and that probably shouldn't bear relevance on inclusion here. Kingsif ( talk) 10:35, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
@ All Hallow's Wraith: I've taken my time responding to your edit/reason because I couldn't quite put my finger on what about your general editing behavior irked me, and I've now come to realize it's because I believe you are editing here entirely with an WP:AGENDA. I won't say you are simply an WP:Agenda account, though all your edits are about ethnicity and you have been involved in several disputes about relevancy, but I do think that in this case you had done WP:OR and made up your mind about who of the Shiva Baby cast was Jewish and that a POV narrative about the casting choices needed to be pushed, and now won't listen to anything that disagrees with your OR - from adding Deferrari as not Jewish despite it being irrelevant in the discussion and untrue per sources from Deferrari and Seligman, to removing sourced statements about Sennott going to Hebrew school on her bio (not unheard of with Catholics) with the reason you thought the source was wrong.
This is inappropriate editing behavior; I don't know why you care so much about which members of the cast are Jewish, or what moral argument you want to win by having Wikipedia frame the issue a certain way to presumably give your stance on authentic casting legitimacy, but you are in massive violation of (at least) WP:V - Wikipedia uses information from reliable sources that is verifiable, i.e. not necessarily true but the "known truth", what's recorded. This means that whether you believe the sources saying that Molly Gordon was raised Jewish but isn't religious, Deferrari is Jewish, and Sennott went to Hebrew school, are correct or not, you cannot remove the sourced facts because of your personal views on their accuracy. There is also a debate to be had about WP:OWN and WP:DUE - you added statements about cast members not being Jewish without any sources and before there was any discussion in media about the authenticity of casting, i.e. there was no relevance of these statements to the movie and so it was clearly to make a WP:POINT, and now you insist on only listing certain cast members even when others have been brought into that discussion in reliable sources. Whatever picture you are trying to paint, whatever point you want to make about Sennott, Draper and Deferrari, Wikipedia is not your advocacy platform. Kingsif ( talk) 22:09, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
I would say it's a version of "fact" editing. Sennott and Draper aren't Jewish. Gordon (you're joking/etc.) is Jewish. I wouldn't necessarily have included the sentence about their Jewishness at all, but someone added something nonsensical about "the director set out to cast Jewish actors" in there, nonsensical because she didn't, so if we're putting in the part about her wanting to, we should add that she didn't. Facts. Nothing more. And just because some website in India accidentally called Gordon not Jewish, has nothing to do with anything. All Hallow's Wraith ( talk) 20:37, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
some website in India- the very RS major circulation newspaper The Hindu - posed the question to Seligman, who didn't correct them and previously said of her own accord that Gordon "isn't religious". You seem to think both that you know better than these people about themselves, and that your view of fact overrides WP:V, which it never will. In your response we now see your agenda: you're angry that Seligman said she cast Jewish actors when not all of the cast are Jewish. What a petty waste of editing. Kingsif ( talk) 21:33, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Shiva Baby article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Mostly in reference to this edit, by @ All Hallow's Wraith:. The Cohen source only explicitly mentions Sennott is not Jewish (and that Agron is Jewish but she "plays the WASP-iest character"); it does infer that Deferrari isn't Jewish, but it doesn't say it, and it doesn't mention Draper's ethnic background or faith at all (though IndieWire does). While we could look for other sources (and if you're doing it, Seligman herself recently said in an interview that Gordon isn't religious and it's known Melamed was raised secular, the sentence should probably include most of the cast), it might be WP:OR and WP:SYNTH to be pointing it out when the source where Seligman talks about casting only focuses on Sennott not being Jewish. What do people think? Perhaps it's useful to note but I'd like to see a source that connects the cast's Jewishness with the movie if we're going to put it in the same sentence (also discuss the merits of a separate sentence). Kingsif ( talk) 10:13, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
Also pinging @
LaserLegs:, my favorite
WP:DETAIL stickler, for that policy view on if it's a relevant level of detail - and you could comb the rest of the article if you're willing to read about film :) ?
Kingsif (
talk)
10:36, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
As another aside, a related fact was used for a December 2020 DYK about the lead actress, as something intriguing about her, and that probably shouldn't bear relevance on inclusion here. Kingsif ( talk) 10:35, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
@ All Hallow's Wraith: I've taken my time responding to your edit/reason because I couldn't quite put my finger on what about your general editing behavior irked me, and I've now come to realize it's because I believe you are editing here entirely with an WP:AGENDA. I won't say you are simply an WP:Agenda account, though all your edits are about ethnicity and you have been involved in several disputes about relevancy, but I do think that in this case you had done WP:OR and made up your mind about who of the Shiva Baby cast was Jewish and that a POV narrative about the casting choices needed to be pushed, and now won't listen to anything that disagrees with your OR - from adding Deferrari as not Jewish despite it being irrelevant in the discussion and untrue per sources from Deferrari and Seligman, to removing sourced statements about Sennott going to Hebrew school on her bio (not unheard of with Catholics) with the reason you thought the source was wrong.
This is inappropriate editing behavior; I don't know why you care so much about which members of the cast are Jewish, or what moral argument you want to win by having Wikipedia frame the issue a certain way to presumably give your stance on authentic casting legitimacy, but you are in massive violation of (at least) WP:V - Wikipedia uses information from reliable sources that is verifiable, i.e. not necessarily true but the "known truth", what's recorded. This means that whether you believe the sources saying that Molly Gordon was raised Jewish but isn't religious, Deferrari is Jewish, and Sennott went to Hebrew school, are correct or not, you cannot remove the sourced facts because of your personal views on their accuracy. There is also a debate to be had about WP:OWN and WP:DUE - you added statements about cast members not being Jewish without any sources and before there was any discussion in media about the authenticity of casting, i.e. there was no relevance of these statements to the movie and so it was clearly to make a WP:POINT, and now you insist on only listing certain cast members even when others have been brought into that discussion in reliable sources. Whatever picture you are trying to paint, whatever point you want to make about Sennott, Draper and Deferrari, Wikipedia is not your advocacy platform. Kingsif ( talk) 22:09, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
I would say it's a version of "fact" editing. Sennott and Draper aren't Jewish. Gordon (you're joking/etc.) is Jewish. I wouldn't necessarily have included the sentence about their Jewishness at all, but someone added something nonsensical about "the director set out to cast Jewish actors" in there, nonsensical because she didn't, so if we're putting in the part about her wanting to, we should add that she didn't. Facts. Nothing more. And just because some website in India accidentally called Gordon not Jewish, has nothing to do with anything. All Hallow's Wraith ( talk) 20:37, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
some website in India- the very RS major circulation newspaper The Hindu - posed the question to Seligman, who didn't correct them and previously said of her own accord that Gordon "isn't religious". You seem to think both that you know better than these people about themselves, and that your view of fact overrides WP:V, which it never will. In your response we now see your agenda: you're angry that Seligman said she cast Jewish actors when not all of the cast are Jewish. What a petty waste of editing. Kingsif ( talk) 21:33, 21 June 2021 (UTC)