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I wanted to know anyones take on the National Human Rights Commission of Korea survey which states that 63 percent of foreigners have been discriminated against vs the Statistics Korea survey which says 20 have faced discrimination. I can't find the survey for the latter and therefor don't know what methods it uses in terms of whether or not it's more or less reliable than the Human Rights Commission of Korea. https://english.news.cn/20230906/bc3d89a3f77b4099b0da58413e57abb1/c.html
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This article only cites newspaper articles and thus leading to a complete unneutral point of view. For every country in the world, you could find that many articles regarding racism. The article also shows some original research by wanting to prove racism by referencing as many as possible news articles. For a topic like this, you definitely need journal articles or books. Newspapers are for current events. -- Christian140 ( talk) 22:11, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
The numbers are like 6 years old. Moreover, in recent years, there had been many reports that the situation improved a lot, correlating with the decreasing jobless rate among North Korean resettlers, which is now less than 5%. Reports often claim television shows regarding North Korean defectors as reason, though, there are also voices that rather think it is due to government measures. -- Christian140 ( talk) 17:28, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
I am concerned about the inflammatory nature of the page and the poor citations.
I propose to remove all personal, subjective opinions and illegitimately referenced items. I will attempt to emulate other "Racism in XYZ" pages, such as "Racism in France" and keep all matters strictly factual. For the present, I will tackle only the Introduction, sentence by sentence.
1) First and foremost, I suggest this page be renamed Ethnic Issues in South Korea.
2) "Racism in South Korea is widespread and overt in nature, stemming from the country's commonly held belief that Koreans are a 'pure-blooded race' that have been homogeneous throughout history"
3) "South Korean racism comes in a variety of different forms, such as nationalistic xenophobia, ethnic prejudices, and discrimination against persons on the basis of their skin color and ancestry."
4) "Racism permeates many levels of South Korean society, from education to employment."
5) "Children born to South Korean mothers and American fathers often are mistreated by students at schools, and black American expatriates often are denied employment due to the color of their skin, a form of discrimination that is actually allowed under current South Korean law."
6) "The discrimination even extends to North Koreans living in South Korea, who are often mistreated at schools and denied employment due to their being from North Korea."
7) A South Korean soccer player from Japan even renounced his South Korean citizenship after being called a racist slur by a South Korean newspaper.
8) "People in South Korea who experience racism are often helpless to do anything about it, due to its being legal under South Korean law."
9) "Sometimes, when racist abuse is reported to police, the police themselves even engage in racist vitriol."
10) "The heavily widespread nature of racism in South Korea has even led to the United Nations and the United States expressing concern over the matter."
11) "Despite the ubiquitous nature of South Korean racism, discrimination in South Korea is not just limited to racism and xenophobia against foreigners."
12) "Among South Koreans themselves, sexism, nepotism, and ageism are also very prevalent, with preferential treatment being given to people who are male, related, and older in age."
13) "This has led to some South Koreans nicknaming the country "Hell Joseon", with a poll indicating eighty percent of young South Koreans indicating a desire to leave the country and move overseas."
AmericanExpat ( talk) 00:14, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
What does define when the thoughts of one person are relevant for a general topic? Brian Reynolds Myers is a journalist and I guess most researchers would disagree with his opinion. Saying that the sinking of Cheonan caused "relatively low outrage" sounds not well researched. Same goes for the other claims he make. -- Christian140 ( talk) 19:09, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
Was there any consensus for moving the article? Spacecowboy420 ( talk) 13:49, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
It's moved back. All is good. Spacecowboy420 ( talk) 14:46, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
I cleaned up the introduction section to omit all inflammatory language, opinions and unsubstantiated claims. Most of them were ridiculous generalizations and the citations detailed in the body as cases. But if any were deserving of mention, they should be added in the body of the article as separate incidents.
I rewrote the segment on the absence of discrimination law in SK and omitted the mention of UN because it has its separate section at the end. The US bit has been deleted because it was not true.
But I don't think I have all my citations correctly formatted. If someone can lend a hand there, that'd be great. Thanks. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
AmericanExpat (
talk •
contribs)
00:26, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
AmericanExpat ( talk) 23:00, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
When making huge removals of cited content that has been included with the support of consensus, you should make proposals on the article talk page, and gain consensus for your edits. It's rather suspicious that you made an account, just after a sock account was blocked for editing this article, you are making exactly the same edits and have already had claims of sock puppetry placed on your user page.
Spacecowboy420 (
talk)
06:41, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
I propose that the article is reverted to the more stable and consensus backed version, that we had before the minor edit war. ie. this version [ [3]]
I know that in the eyes of some, this version is not perfect. (personally, I don't have major issues with that version) but at least it will give us some stability, while we discuss proposed changes on this talk page.
This can be dealt with a lot more easily with discussion, than with huge changes based on "I don't like that version, it's not fair" that result in edit-wars and editors being blocked from editing. Spacecowboy420 ( talk) 06:38, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
Noticed the comments by AmericanExpat about the claim in the lead and the body about the US expressing concerns. That seems to be backed up only by this source. I'm scratching my head on this one as to how that source could support that statement or the one in the body about a report from the US Department of Education. Nothing in that source supports either of those claims - just because it's on a .gov domain doesn't mean it's from the government. I think both should be removed unless far better sources are found. Ravensfire ( talk) 22:00, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
As stated also in the description. I removed all the WP:BLOGS as sources. They are completely unreliable. Especially The Korea Observer is just a personal webblog with very biased opinions and should not be mixed up with the scientific journal Korea Observer. Moreover, how is this incident of any relevance for business discrimination? A single incident by one person cannot be representative for one country. Even news articles should only be in articles to new topics because scientific sources cannot be found to recent incidents. This is a general topic and should only allow reliable sources instead of news articles about single incidents that happen anywhere. Not to mention these webblogs.
I am refering to this revision by Spacecowboy420 who is only allowing his biased opinion. -- Christian140 ( talk) 07:00, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
@ Christian140: Regarding the bias tag, exactly is the perceived bias here? – Finnusertop ( talk ⋅ contribs) 21:06, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
Please see my comment at
Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Sociology#Racism_in_South_Korea. Bottom line is that this article is way too focused on random news incidents, and does not draw on reliable, scholarly sources. It is a semi-organized collection of news/blog rants about racism in Korea. Half of those stories should probably be deleted as
WP:NOTNEWS. This article could really use a major rewrite, I'd suggest doing so in a sandbox, maybe
Talk:Racism_in_South_Korea/Sandbox. Start from scratch, based on what can be found on
Google Scholar and
Google Books. When the draft makes sense, then and only then see which of the news stories were more widely reported, and consider mentioning a few as examples to illustrate some content. Again, let me stress that news stories should be used as an extra illustrations, not as the primary source material for this article. I have written several articles about sensitive areas of South Korea, see for example
Poverty in South Korea or
Gender inequality in South Korea. Please note that the news stories there are used cautiosly, and blogs are pretty much absent. They are no places for case-studies sopping stories. What we need is statistics and scientific discourse, not journalism or worse, ranting and axe-grinding. PS. Here are some sources that should be READ by people who want to work on this article: the section in Ryuko Kubota; Angel M.Y. Lin (2 June 2009).
Race, Culture, and Identities in Second Language Education: Exploring Critically Engaged Practice. Routledge. p. 56.
ISBN
978-1-135-84569-8.; the entire chapter here Shin Gi Wook (1 November 2012). "Racist South Korea? Diverse but not tolerant of diversity". In Rotem Kowner; Walter Demel (eds.).
Race and Racism in Modern East Asia: Western and Eastern Constructions. BRILL.
ISBN
90-04-23729-1. {{
cite book}}
: Text "pages369" ignored (
help), another chapter through focused on pre-Korean war aspects at Rotem Kowner; Walter Demel (23 April 2015).
Race and Racism in Modern East Asia: Interactions, Nationalism, Gender and Lineage. BRILL. pp. 242–.
ISBN
978-90-04-29293-2. , 1-2 pages at Uk Heo; Terence Roehrig (28 June 2010).
South Korea Since 1980. Cambridge University Press. pp. 76–.
ISBN
978-0-521-76116-1. . I don't have time to do a lit review on this, but this is the first step. For Google Scholar, see
[4]. If anyone needs access to an paywalled article, or a book, well, I'd say message me, but seriously, just use
Library Genesis first, those days it is more useful then an average university's library system. --
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here
09:02, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
There is a Third Opinion request. While two editors have done most of the interacting, there have been at least four editors involved. I am closing the Third Opinion request. The two principal editors should pay attention to the outsiders. The dispute resolution noticeboard or a Request for Comments may be next steps. Robert McClenon ( talk) 13:40, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
The first sentence of the lead states "Racism in South Korea is widespread and overt in nature, stemming from the country's commonly held belief that Koreans are a "pure-blooded race" that have been homogeneous throughout history". It is sources to [6], [7] and [8]. First ref, while reliable (academic book review) does not even mention the word racism. Second and third articles are newspaper articles, which, first, do not mention the word racism and second, even if they did, would be problematic for such a strong sentence in the lead.
Second sentence reads "South Korean racism comes in a variety of different forms, such as nationalistic xenophobia, ethnic prejudices, and discrimination against persons on the basis of their skin color and ancestry". The reference is another decent newspaper article ( [9]) that once again does not mention the word racism. Now, the ref even comes with a quote: "Although the country is rich, well-educated, peaceful and ethnically homogenous – all trends that appear to coincide with racial tolerance – more than one in three South Koreans said they do not want a neighbor of a different race. This may have to do with Korea's particular view of its own racial-national identity as unique – studied by scholars such as B.R. Myers – and with the influx of Southeast Asian neighbors and the nation's long-held tensions with Japan". Note the absence of words such as nationalism, xenophobia or prejudice.
So, in essence, the first paragraph of the lead is not only totally unsubstantiated despite making strong claims, it contains fake references - ones that fail W:V.
Second paragraph starts with an unreferenced sentence "Racism permeates many levels of South Korean society, from education to employment." Let's say it is a summary sentence and move on.
Next sentence is "Children born to South Korean mothers and American fathers often are mistreated by students at schools". It has two references. [10], while reliable (academic), seems not to mention words such as student or child, and therefore, while related to the article, is invalid for the claim. The second ref is a bit better ( [11]). It is academic and briefly discusses some harassment of mixed-ethnicity students. But there are problems. The paper is not published in a peer-reviewed work, it appears pretty much self-published. It contains one interview with a American father whose daughter was harassed at school, this is a singular case and even the paper notes it is difficult to generalize it - through the author "is familiar" with other similar stories. This is bad research (no wonder it is unpublished). It does contain a cite to a newspaper ( [12]) that could probably be used as a much better, on-topic reference for a related sentence that should, however, not focus on "Children born to South Korean mothers and American fathers". I am relatively sure that children born to South Korean mothers and German or Chinese fathers, or American mothers and Korean fathers, would face the same issues.
Next sentence (well, second part of the compound sentence, but that's not relevant) reads: "and black American expatriates often are denied employment due to the color of their skin." and is sourced to a Korean news article [13]. As far as I can make it out from the Google translation, it is about some foreigner (I don't see words black or American, but there is something about Indian) who either was abused verbally on the bus, or by police officers, or both. Nothing seems to justify the sentence.
Next sentence reads "The discrimination even extends to North Koreans living in South Korea, who are often mistreated at schools and denied employment due to their being from North Korea". Let's put aside the question of whether discrimination against North Koreans is racism, which I find dubious ( discrimination =/= racism). All refs are newspaper. [14] first ref only states that North Koreans "re struggling to join mainstream South Korean society", it does not say why, so it fails to support the claim here. [15] second ref is fine, discusses discrimination against NKs in SK at workplace. [16] this one does mention harassment of NK in SK schools, so overall ref 2 and 3 do make this the first properly referenced claim in this article.
Next sentence "Lee Chung-sung, a South Korean soccer player from Japan even renounced his South Korean citizenship after being called a racist slur by a South Korean newspaper". It can be confirmed on the second page of the newspaper report ( [17]), but seems WP:UNDUE in the lead (newsy, gossipy story).
Moving on: "People in South Korea who experience racism are often helpless to do anything about it, due to its being legal under South Korean law", ref to [18], another Korean language ref. Google Translate fails badly, but there does seem to be something in the article about no legal grounds to punish... something related to discrimination. Again, this is a very strong claim and we need a more reliable and accessible source. A bit of my own research ( [19], [20]) suggest that what SK is lacking is anti-discrimination law. Again, discrimination and racism are not the same things, but at the very least the correct terminology should be used.
Next: "Sometimes, when racist abuse is reported to police, the police themselves even engage in racism". Let's note the WP:WEASEL word "sometimes". First ref is the Korean article mentioned earlier ( [21]) - guess I was right about it having something to do with police being racist. The next two articles are similar - Korean news articles that seem to mention some incidents by the police: [22], [23]. The big problem here is that the sentence is an improper WP:SYNTHESIS - using three news reports to claim that something happens "sometimes". That's bad wiki style. We need a source that states something happens "sometimes", we cannot do original research and synthesize such reports into our own conclusions.
Almost over: "It took until 2011 for the South Korean government to formally take any official action against racism in the country, the first time it has done so in its history.". It is, unfortunately, another Korean language ref ( [24]). I cannot make out much of GTranslate here, and I cannot find an English ref that would confirm this, so I am calling it dubious, particularly in light of numerous errors and misrepresentation of prior sources here.
The leads end with "The nature of racism in South Korea has led to the United Nations expressing concern over the matter. The United Nation's top expert on racism outlined "racist and xenophobic verbal and physical abuse" and that "many are afraid to report domestic violence for fear of losing their residence permit"". The first ref is already discussed self-published academic paper at [25] and seems to have no relevant mention of UN. [26] and [27] are fortunately on topic and contain the quote cited.
Uff, I just spend an hour reviewing the lead and it is very discouraging. The refs cited do not support the text, whether this is intentional vandalism or poor editing / writing skills I am not prepared to say. The structure and the tone are poor too: the lead cites not a single statistic, but uses at least one weasel word.
A few months ago I voted keep during an AfD. This time I am increasingly leaning to renomination it at which point I'll endorse WP:TNT. This article needs to be rewritten from scratch, using reliable, academic sources. Most of the current content seems not only based on low-quality news, but has major problems with failed WP:V, and occasional problems with WP:OR (synthesis). -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 13:57, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
Thoughts on this as a start...?
References
The recent increased influx of immigrants in Korea has ignited racism among Korean natives, which is heightened by economic and cultural nationalism [6]. For example, more than 40 % of Koreans answered that they would not want a foreigner as their neighborhood, based on the recent World Value Survey (2010–2014) [9].
{{
citation}}
: Explicit use of et al. in: |last3=
(
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link)
If other people can't access the sources, LMK and I'll paste some quotes. Please ping me or I might not notice it in my watchlist. Here are some other academic sources that seem relevant (and use the word racism):
—PermStrump (talk) 07:30, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
@ Permstrump: More good sources are, courtesy of Christian, at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Sociology#Literature. I'd suggest the following restructuring for clarity and focus. I have essentially re-ordered some sentences and added one cite request, as well as some blue links. I could check the sources for venerability, but perhaps you'd be so kind as to make it easier for everyone by adding more |quote parameter to all sources? For the WVS data, it would be good to place it on a scale - something like comparing this response to OECD average, or such (is 40% good or bad? We imply it is bad, but without a benchmark it is just a number). Finally, from the quote of the third source and the title of the first, I expect we can add a sentence on nationalism or sources of racism in general ( this reliable magazine cites a scholar who attributes it to "century-old nationalism and much older xenophobia"). -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:53, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
References
The recent increased influx of immigrants in Korea has ignited racism among Korean natives, which is heightened by economic and cultural nationalism [6]. For example, more than 40 % of Koreans answered that they would not want a foreigner as their neighborhood, based on the recent World Value Survey (2010–2014) [9].
{{
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: Explicit use of et al. in: |last3=
(
help)CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (
link)
It seems that the new draft is stable. Anyone interested in the old revision, from which maybe, just maybe, a few sentences could be salvaged, can look at [29]. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:34, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
References
The recent increased influx of immigrants in Korea has ignited racism among Korean natives, which is heightened by economic and cultural nationalism [6]. For example, more than 40 % of Koreans answered that they would not want a foreigner as their neighborhood, based on the recent World Value Survey (2010–2014) [9].
{{
citation}}
: Explicit use of et al. in: |last3=
(
help)CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (
link)
Park
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).I started the discussion about Korea Exposé at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Korea Exposé. -- George Ho ( talk) 02:16, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
One editor said something about the source. -- George Ho ( talk) 22:43, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
Should the sentence "As a result, it is common for people to be denied service at business establishments or in taxis." be included in the article? -- Christian140 ( talk) 14:05, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
The issue is whether the statement is even correct, the validity of the sources for such an academic topic.
As a result, it is common for people to be denied service at business establishments or in taxis. [1] [2] [3] [4]
References
- ^ http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20160221000207
- ^ http://thediplomat.com/2016/03/the-south-korean-businesses-that-ban-foreigners/
- ^ http://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/news/article/article.aspx?aid=2988812
- ^ http://www.koreaobserver.com/taxi-drivers-to-lose-license-for-refusing-passengers-25902/
Support for inclusion of said sentence, Oppose for exclusion.
Problems with sources: Korea Observer is an inactive web blog, presenting their 2014 blogging awards at the top of the page, and therefore not suitable. Moreover, the article is quite biased. While stating that foreigners are denied service by taxis in Korea, it omits that people, regardless of nationality are denied service and that this is a complex issue often presented in Korean media and discussed in politics. Also, the disputed sentence claims that the texi denial stems from a missing anti-discrimination law by it's introductory words "As a result, it is common". This is not supported by the article, nor has it anything to do with the anti-discrimination law, since the denial of passengers is illegal and everyone can report these issues, as mentioned at the end of the article. The Korea Herald and The Diplomat article are very similar since The Diplomat reports about the prviously Korea Herald article. The disputed sentence says, is was common for people to be denied service, but this is not supported by the sources. Instead, some single incidents are listed from which is cannot be deducted that it is common. Instead, they identified 8 establishments over the course of 1 year in a metropolis of 25 million where are more than countless bars and clubs in Hongdae, Itaewon, and Gangnam. Moreover, issues regarding clubs belong in the specific articles since they are a special issue everywhere in the world due to dressing codes etc. -- Christian140 ( talk) 16:00, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
Kim, Yudae (2017-06-08).
"[뉴스 따라잡기] "인도인 출입 금지"…이태원 인종차별 논란" [[Followup news]"No Indian"... Itaewon racism controversy] (in Korean). Korean Broadcasting System. Retrieved 28 November 2017.
. Background info: Person with
India passport was denied entry to a restaurant because of his racial status. Quotes below:그런데 이태원 등지에선 이런 비슷한 경험을 했다는 외국인들을 쉽게 찾아볼 수 있었는데요.
But we can find quite a number of foreigner (revi's note: non-Korean) who had similar experiences.
특히 중동이나 동남아 국적을 가진 외국인들이 차별을 경험했다고 말하는 경우가 많았습니다.
Especially, people from Middle East or Southeast Asia tend to say they had experienced discrimination.
<인터뷰> 최향섭 (국민대 문화사회학 교수):“선진국에서는 인종차별 금지법이 존재하지만, 한국에서는 아직도 인종차별과 관련된 법안이 마련되어 있지가 않아요. 이것은 어떤 제도적인 대책이 분명히 있음을 의미하고 한국사회가 선진사회로 발돋움하기 위해서는 이런 제도적 장치가 필요하다고 생각합니다.”
<Interview> Hyangseop Choi (Kookmin Univ., professor, Culture and Society): "Developed countries have anti-discrimination law, but S. Korea does not have any sort of law regarding racism. This means we do have a sort of systemic measures, and we need kind of this systemic countermeasure for Korea to be an advanced culture.
Why does Racism in Korea redirect to Racism in South Korea, and why is there no Racism in North Korea page? – Athaenara ✉ 12:14, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
In the overview section, it is stated that Europeans/ North American with white skin often experience preferential treatment. This is somewhat tone deaf as it does not take into account the sexual racism women of all races experience in Korea. White women are often asked if they are Russian (slang for "prostitute", you can find this under the wiki page Prostitution in South Korea) and approached by men. Foreign women also repeatedly experience sexual harassment and assault, domestic violence, and power abuses by the system. Their crimes are vastly underreported or mishandled without justice, and deserve to be acknowledged on this page. Please see the UN Gender Inequiality and Gender Gap statistics on South Korea, as well as other sources which can be found by doing some simple web browsing. Mzuccardo ( talk) 16:20, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
Here is another source from the OSAC, and I will try to find more. https://www.osac.gov/Country/SouthKorea/Content/Detail/Report/55d33eb7-21b6-4b2f-8ccb-18618d06536b Mzuccardo ( talk) 16:32, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
The Diplomat article is relevant to this article and has some other usable examples, but it doesn't clearly state that "Is the lack of appropriate online curriculum" for foreign student is racist, and frankly, I think such a claim seems like a stretch. I think this example should be removed as an OR. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:58, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
Grammatical Error: Add a quotation mark to the sentence ending in "not to protect refugees but to keep them out" just before the History section begins. Geographynerd101 ( talk) 12:19, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
Such topics, like these, are not for people to start making baseless claims. It is stated blatantly in the policies Wikipedia:Neutral point of view that you are not allowed to put unsourced claims in ANY article. This is an extremely serious topic, and just putting in these claims just to vent or have a laugh isn't something you should do. Notendiesonmyplate ( talk) 07:44, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
This article was nominated for deletion on 2016-5-30. The result of the discussion was SNOW Keep. |
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/Archive 1 |
I wanted to know anyones take on the National Human Rights Commission of Korea survey which states that 63 percent of foreigners have been discriminated against vs the Statistics Korea survey which says 20 have faced discrimination. I can't find the survey for the latter and therefor don't know what methods it uses in terms of whether or not it's more or less reliable than the Human Rights Commission of Korea. https://english.news.cn/20230906/bc3d89a3f77b4099b0da58413e57abb1/c.html
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 2 April 2019 and 7 June 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): DAlexPiña.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 07:43, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 21 August 2020 and 17 December 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): TheOrientAlice. Peer reviewers: Cmsandov.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 07:43, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
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Racism in South Korea. Please take a moment to review
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This article only cites newspaper articles and thus leading to a complete unneutral point of view. For every country in the world, you could find that many articles regarding racism. The article also shows some original research by wanting to prove racism by referencing as many as possible news articles. For a topic like this, you definitely need journal articles or books. Newspapers are for current events. -- Christian140 ( talk) 22:11, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
The numbers are like 6 years old. Moreover, in recent years, there had been many reports that the situation improved a lot, correlating with the decreasing jobless rate among North Korean resettlers, which is now less than 5%. Reports often claim television shows regarding North Korean defectors as reason, though, there are also voices that rather think it is due to government measures. -- Christian140 ( talk) 17:28, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
I am concerned about the inflammatory nature of the page and the poor citations.
I propose to remove all personal, subjective opinions and illegitimately referenced items. I will attempt to emulate other "Racism in XYZ" pages, such as "Racism in France" and keep all matters strictly factual. For the present, I will tackle only the Introduction, sentence by sentence.
1) First and foremost, I suggest this page be renamed Ethnic Issues in South Korea.
2) "Racism in South Korea is widespread and overt in nature, stemming from the country's commonly held belief that Koreans are a 'pure-blooded race' that have been homogeneous throughout history"
3) "South Korean racism comes in a variety of different forms, such as nationalistic xenophobia, ethnic prejudices, and discrimination against persons on the basis of their skin color and ancestry."
4) "Racism permeates many levels of South Korean society, from education to employment."
5) "Children born to South Korean mothers and American fathers often are mistreated by students at schools, and black American expatriates often are denied employment due to the color of their skin, a form of discrimination that is actually allowed under current South Korean law."
6) "The discrimination even extends to North Koreans living in South Korea, who are often mistreated at schools and denied employment due to their being from North Korea."
7) A South Korean soccer player from Japan even renounced his South Korean citizenship after being called a racist slur by a South Korean newspaper.
8) "People in South Korea who experience racism are often helpless to do anything about it, due to its being legal under South Korean law."
9) "Sometimes, when racist abuse is reported to police, the police themselves even engage in racist vitriol."
10) "The heavily widespread nature of racism in South Korea has even led to the United Nations and the United States expressing concern over the matter."
11) "Despite the ubiquitous nature of South Korean racism, discrimination in South Korea is not just limited to racism and xenophobia against foreigners."
12) "Among South Koreans themselves, sexism, nepotism, and ageism are also very prevalent, with preferential treatment being given to people who are male, related, and older in age."
13) "This has led to some South Koreans nicknaming the country "Hell Joseon", with a poll indicating eighty percent of young South Koreans indicating a desire to leave the country and move overseas."
AmericanExpat ( talk) 00:14, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
What does define when the thoughts of one person are relevant for a general topic? Brian Reynolds Myers is a journalist and I guess most researchers would disagree with his opinion. Saying that the sinking of Cheonan caused "relatively low outrage" sounds not well researched. Same goes for the other claims he make. -- Christian140 ( talk) 19:09, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
Was there any consensus for moving the article? Spacecowboy420 ( talk) 13:49, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
It's moved back. All is good. Spacecowboy420 ( talk) 14:46, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
I cleaned up the introduction section to omit all inflammatory language, opinions and unsubstantiated claims. Most of them were ridiculous generalizations and the citations detailed in the body as cases. But if any were deserving of mention, they should be added in the body of the article as separate incidents.
I rewrote the segment on the absence of discrimination law in SK and omitted the mention of UN because it has its separate section at the end. The US bit has been deleted because it was not true.
But I don't think I have all my citations correctly formatted. If someone can lend a hand there, that'd be great. Thanks. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
AmericanExpat (
talk •
contribs)
00:26, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
AmericanExpat ( talk) 23:00, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
When making huge removals of cited content that has been included with the support of consensus, you should make proposals on the article talk page, and gain consensus for your edits. It's rather suspicious that you made an account, just after a sock account was blocked for editing this article, you are making exactly the same edits and have already had claims of sock puppetry placed on your user page.
Spacecowboy420 (
talk)
06:41, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
I propose that the article is reverted to the more stable and consensus backed version, that we had before the minor edit war. ie. this version [ [3]]
I know that in the eyes of some, this version is not perfect. (personally, I don't have major issues with that version) but at least it will give us some stability, while we discuss proposed changes on this talk page.
This can be dealt with a lot more easily with discussion, than with huge changes based on "I don't like that version, it's not fair" that result in edit-wars and editors being blocked from editing. Spacecowboy420 ( talk) 06:38, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
Noticed the comments by AmericanExpat about the claim in the lead and the body about the US expressing concerns. That seems to be backed up only by this source. I'm scratching my head on this one as to how that source could support that statement or the one in the body about a report from the US Department of Education. Nothing in that source supports either of those claims - just because it's on a .gov domain doesn't mean it's from the government. I think both should be removed unless far better sources are found. Ravensfire ( talk) 22:00, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
As stated also in the description. I removed all the WP:BLOGS as sources. They are completely unreliable. Especially The Korea Observer is just a personal webblog with very biased opinions and should not be mixed up with the scientific journal Korea Observer. Moreover, how is this incident of any relevance for business discrimination? A single incident by one person cannot be representative for one country. Even news articles should only be in articles to new topics because scientific sources cannot be found to recent incidents. This is a general topic and should only allow reliable sources instead of news articles about single incidents that happen anywhere. Not to mention these webblogs.
I am refering to this revision by Spacecowboy420 who is only allowing his biased opinion. -- Christian140 ( talk) 07:00, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
@ Christian140: Regarding the bias tag, exactly is the perceived bias here? – Finnusertop ( talk ⋅ contribs) 21:06, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
Please see my comment at
Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Sociology#Racism_in_South_Korea. Bottom line is that this article is way too focused on random news incidents, and does not draw on reliable, scholarly sources. It is a semi-organized collection of news/blog rants about racism in Korea. Half of those stories should probably be deleted as
WP:NOTNEWS. This article could really use a major rewrite, I'd suggest doing so in a sandbox, maybe
Talk:Racism_in_South_Korea/Sandbox. Start from scratch, based on what can be found on
Google Scholar and
Google Books. When the draft makes sense, then and only then see which of the news stories were more widely reported, and consider mentioning a few as examples to illustrate some content. Again, let me stress that news stories should be used as an extra illustrations, not as the primary source material for this article. I have written several articles about sensitive areas of South Korea, see for example
Poverty in South Korea or
Gender inequality in South Korea. Please note that the news stories there are used cautiosly, and blogs are pretty much absent. They are no places for case-studies sopping stories. What we need is statistics and scientific discourse, not journalism or worse, ranting and axe-grinding. PS. Here are some sources that should be READ by people who want to work on this article: the section in Ryuko Kubota; Angel M.Y. Lin (2 June 2009).
Race, Culture, and Identities in Second Language Education: Exploring Critically Engaged Practice. Routledge. p. 56.
ISBN
978-1-135-84569-8.; the entire chapter here Shin Gi Wook (1 November 2012). "Racist South Korea? Diverse but not tolerant of diversity". In Rotem Kowner; Walter Demel (eds.).
Race and Racism in Modern East Asia: Western and Eastern Constructions. BRILL.
ISBN
90-04-23729-1. {{
cite book}}
: Text "pages369" ignored (
help), another chapter through focused on pre-Korean war aspects at Rotem Kowner; Walter Demel (23 April 2015).
Race and Racism in Modern East Asia: Interactions, Nationalism, Gender and Lineage. BRILL. pp. 242–.
ISBN
978-90-04-29293-2. , 1-2 pages at Uk Heo; Terence Roehrig (28 June 2010).
South Korea Since 1980. Cambridge University Press. pp. 76–.
ISBN
978-0-521-76116-1. . I don't have time to do a lit review on this, but this is the first step. For Google Scholar, see
[4]. If anyone needs access to an paywalled article, or a book, well, I'd say message me, but seriously, just use
Library Genesis first, those days it is more useful then an average university's library system. --
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here
09:02, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
There is a Third Opinion request. While two editors have done most of the interacting, there have been at least four editors involved. I am closing the Third Opinion request. The two principal editors should pay attention to the outsiders. The dispute resolution noticeboard or a Request for Comments may be next steps. Robert McClenon ( talk) 13:40, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
The first sentence of the lead states "Racism in South Korea is widespread and overt in nature, stemming from the country's commonly held belief that Koreans are a "pure-blooded race" that have been homogeneous throughout history". It is sources to [6], [7] and [8]. First ref, while reliable (academic book review) does not even mention the word racism. Second and third articles are newspaper articles, which, first, do not mention the word racism and second, even if they did, would be problematic for such a strong sentence in the lead.
Second sentence reads "South Korean racism comes in a variety of different forms, such as nationalistic xenophobia, ethnic prejudices, and discrimination against persons on the basis of their skin color and ancestry". The reference is another decent newspaper article ( [9]) that once again does not mention the word racism. Now, the ref even comes with a quote: "Although the country is rich, well-educated, peaceful and ethnically homogenous – all trends that appear to coincide with racial tolerance – more than one in three South Koreans said they do not want a neighbor of a different race. This may have to do with Korea's particular view of its own racial-national identity as unique – studied by scholars such as B.R. Myers – and with the influx of Southeast Asian neighbors and the nation's long-held tensions with Japan". Note the absence of words such as nationalism, xenophobia or prejudice.
So, in essence, the first paragraph of the lead is not only totally unsubstantiated despite making strong claims, it contains fake references - ones that fail W:V.
Second paragraph starts with an unreferenced sentence "Racism permeates many levels of South Korean society, from education to employment." Let's say it is a summary sentence and move on.
Next sentence is "Children born to South Korean mothers and American fathers often are mistreated by students at schools". It has two references. [10], while reliable (academic), seems not to mention words such as student or child, and therefore, while related to the article, is invalid for the claim. The second ref is a bit better ( [11]). It is academic and briefly discusses some harassment of mixed-ethnicity students. But there are problems. The paper is not published in a peer-reviewed work, it appears pretty much self-published. It contains one interview with a American father whose daughter was harassed at school, this is a singular case and even the paper notes it is difficult to generalize it - through the author "is familiar" with other similar stories. This is bad research (no wonder it is unpublished). It does contain a cite to a newspaper ( [12]) that could probably be used as a much better, on-topic reference for a related sentence that should, however, not focus on "Children born to South Korean mothers and American fathers". I am relatively sure that children born to South Korean mothers and German or Chinese fathers, or American mothers and Korean fathers, would face the same issues.
Next sentence (well, second part of the compound sentence, but that's not relevant) reads: "and black American expatriates often are denied employment due to the color of their skin." and is sourced to a Korean news article [13]. As far as I can make it out from the Google translation, it is about some foreigner (I don't see words black or American, but there is something about Indian) who either was abused verbally on the bus, or by police officers, or both. Nothing seems to justify the sentence.
Next sentence reads "The discrimination even extends to North Koreans living in South Korea, who are often mistreated at schools and denied employment due to their being from North Korea". Let's put aside the question of whether discrimination against North Koreans is racism, which I find dubious ( discrimination =/= racism). All refs are newspaper. [14] first ref only states that North Koreans "re struggling to join mainstream South Korean society", it does not say why, so it fails to support the claim here. [15] second ref is fine, discusses discrimination against NKs in SK at workplace. [16] this one does mention harassment of NK in SK schools, so overall ref 2 and 3 do make this the first properly referenced claim in this article.
Next sentence "Lee Chung-sung, a South Korean soccer player from Japan even renounced his South Korean citizenship after being called a racist slur by a South Korean newspaper". It can be confirmed on the second page of the newspaper report ( [17]), but seems WP:UNDUE in the lead (newsy, gossipy story).
Moving on: "People in South Korea who experience racism are often helpless to do anything about it, due to its being legal under South Korean law", ref to [18], another Korean language ref. Google Translate fails badly, but there does seem to be something in the article about no legal grounds to punish... something related to discrimination. Again, this is a very strong claim and we need a more reliable and accessible source. A bit of my own research ( [19], [20]) suggest that what SK is lacking is anti-discrimination law. Again, discrimination and racism are not the same things, but at the very least the correct terminology should be used.
Next: "Sometimes, when racist abuse is reported to police, the police themselves even engage in racism". Let's note the WP:WEASEL word "sometimes". First ref is the Korean article mentioned earlier ( [21]) - guess I was right about it having something to do with police being racist. The next two articles are similar - Korean news articles that seem to mention some incidents by the police: [22], [23]. The big problem here is that the sentence is an improper WP:SYNTHESIS - using three news reports to claim that something happens "sometimes". That's bad wiki style. We need a source that states something happens "sometimes", we cannot do original research and synthesize such reports into our own conclusions.
Almost over: "It took until 2011 for the South Korean government to formally take any official action against racism in the country, the first time it has done so in its history.". It is, unfortunately, another Korean language ref ( [24]). I cannot make out much of GTranslate here, and I cannot find an English ref that would confirm this, so I am calling it dubious, particularly in light of numerous errors and misrepresentation of prior sources here.
The leads end with "The nature of racism in South Korea has led to the United Nations expressing concern over the matter. The United Nation's top expert on racism outlined "racist and xenophobic verbal and physical abuse" and that "many are afraid to report domestic violence for fear of losing their residence permit"". The first ref is already discussed self-published academic paper at [25] and seems to have no relevant mention of UN. [26] and [27] are fortunately on topic and contain the quote cited.
Uff, I just spend an hour reviewing the lead and it is very discouraging. The refs cited do not support the text, whether this is intentional vandalism or poor editing / writing skills I am not prepared to say. The structure and the tone are poor too: the lead cites not a single statistic, but uses at least one weasel word.
A few months ago I voted keep during an AfD. This time I am increasingly leaning to renomination it at which point I'll endorse WP:TNT. This article needs to be rewritten from scratch, using reliable, academic sources. Most of the current content seems not only based on low-quality news, but has major problems with failed WP:V, and occasional problems with WP:OR (synthesis). -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 13:57, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
Thoughts on this as a start...?
References
The recent increased influx of immigrants in Korea has ignited racism among Korean natives, which is heightened by economic and cultural nationalism [6]. For example, more than 40 % of Koreans answered that they would not want a foreigner as their neighborhood, based on the recent World Value Survey (2010–2014) [9].
{{
citation}}
: Explicit use of et al. in: |last3=
(
help)CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (
link)
If other people can't access the sources, LMK and I'll paste some quotes. Please ping me or I might not notice it in my watchlist. Here are some other academic sources that seem relevant (and use the word racism):
—PermStrump (talk) 07:30, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
@ Permstrump: More good sources are, courtesy of Christian, at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Sociology#Literature. I'd suggest the following restructuring for clarity and focus. I have essentially re-ordered some sentences and added one cite request, as well as some blue links. I could check the sources for venerability, but perhaps you'd be so kind as to make it easier for everyone by adding more |quote parameter to all sources? For the WVS data, it would be good to place it on a scale - something like comparing this response to OECD average, or such (is 40% good or bad? We imply it is bad, but without a benchmark it is just a number). Finally, from the quote of the third source and the title of the first, I expect we can add a sentence on nationalism or sources of racism in general ( this reliable magazine cites a scholar who attributes it to "century-old nationalism and much older xenophobia"). -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:53, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
References
The recent increased influx of immigrants in Korea has ignited racism among Korean natives, which is heightened by economic and cultural nationalism [6]. For example, more than 40 % of Koreans answered that they would not want a foreigner as their neighborhood, based on the recent World Value Survey (2010–2014) [9].
{{
citation}}
: Explicit use of et al. in: |last3=
(
help)CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (
link)
It seems that the new draft is stable. Anyone interested in the old revision, from which maybe, just maybe, a few sentences could be salvaged, can look at [29]. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:34, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
References
The recent increased influx of immigrants in Korea has ignited racism among Korean natives, which is heightened by economic and cultural nationalism [6]. For example, more than 40 % of Koreans answered that they would not want a foreigner as their neighborhood, based on the recent World Value Survey (2010–2014) [9].
{{
citation}}
: Explicit use of et al. in: |last3=
(
help)CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (
link)
Park
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).I started the discussion about Korea Exposé at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Korea Exposé. -- George Ho ( talk) 02:16, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
One editor said something about the source. -- George Ho ( talk) 22:43, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
Should the sentence "As a result, it is common for people to be denied service at business establishments or in taxis." be included in the article? -- Christian140 ( talk) 14:05, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
The issue is whether the statement is even correct, the validity of the sources for such an academic topic.
As a result, it is common for people to be denied service at business establishments or in taxis. [1] [2] [3] [4]
References
- ^ http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20160221000207
- ^ http://thediplomat.com/2016/03/the-south-korean-businesses-that-ban-foreigners/
- ^ http://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/news/article/article.aspx?aid=2988812
- ^ http://www.koreaobserver.com/taxi-drivers-to-lose-license-for-refusing-passengers-25902/
Support for inclusion of said sentence, Oppose for exclusion.
Problems with sources: Korea Observer is an inactive web blog, presenting their 2014 blogging awards at the top of the page, and therefore not suitable. Moreover, the article is quite biased. While stating that foreigners are denied service by taxis in Korea, it omits that people, regardless of nationality are denied service and that this is a complex issue often presented in Korean media and discussed in politics. Also, the disputed sentence claims that the texi denial stems from a missing anti-discrimination law by it's introductory words "As a result, it is common". This is not supported by the article, nor has it anything to do with the anti-discrimination law, since the denial of passengers is illegal and everyone can report these issues, as mentioned at the end of the article. The Korea Herald and The Diplomat article are very similar since The Diplomat reports about the prviously Korea Herald article. The disputed sentence says, is was common for people to be denied service, but this is not supported by the sources. Instead, some single incidents are listed from which is cannot be deducted that it is common. Instead, they identified 8 establishments over the course of 1 year in a metropolis of 25 million where are more than countless bars and clubs in Hongdae, Itaewon, and Gangnam. Moreover, issues regarding clubs belong in the specific articles since they are a special issue everywhere in the world due to dressing codes etc. -- Christian140 ( talk) 16:00, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
Kim, Yudae (2017-06-08).
"[뉴스 따라잡기] "인도인 출입 금지"…이태원 인종차별 논란" [[Followup news]"No Indian"... Itaewon racism controversy] (in Korean). Korean Broadcasting System. Retrieved 28 November 2017.
. Background info: Person with
India passport was denied entry to a restaurant because of his racial status. Quotes below:그런데 이태원 등지에선 이런 비슷한 경험을 했다는 외국인들을 쉽게 찾아볼 수 있었는데요.
But we can find quite a number of foreigner (revi's note: non-Korean) who had similar experiences.
특히 중동이나 동남아 국적을 가진 외국인들이 차별을 경험했다고 말하는 경우가 많았습니다.
Especially, people from Middle East or Southeast Asia tend to say they had experienced discrimination.
<인터뷰> 최향섭 (국민대 문화사회학 교수):“선진국에서는 인종차별 금지법이 존재하지만, 한국에서는 아직도 인종차별과 관련된 법안이 마련되어 있지가 않아요. 이것은 어떤 제도적인 대책이 분명히 있음을 의미하고 한국사회가 선진사회로 발돋움하기 위해서는 이런 제도적 장치가 필요하다고 생각합니다.”
<Interview> Hyangseop Choi (Kookmin Univ., professor, Culture and Society): "Developed countries have anti-discrimination law, but S. Korea does not have any sort of law regarding racism. This means we do have a sort of systemic measures, and we need kind of this systemic countermeasure for Korea to be an advanced culture.
Why does Racism in Korea redirect to Racism in South Korea, and why is there no Racism in North Korea page? – Athaenara ✉ 12:14, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
In the overview section, it is stated that Europeans/ North American with white skin often experience preferential treatment. This is somewhat tone deaf as it does not take into account the sexual racism women of all races experience in Korea. White women are often asked if they are Russian (slang for "prostitute", you can find this under the wiki page Prostitution in South Korea) and approached by men. Foreign women also repeatedly experience sexual harassment and assault, domestic violence, and power abuses by the system. Their crimes are vastly underreported or mishandled without justice, and deserve to be acknowledged on this page. Please see the UN Gender Inequiality and Gender Gap statistics on South Korea, as well as other sources which can be found by doing some simple web browsing. Mzuccardo ( talk) 16:20, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
Here is another source from the OSAC, and I will try to find more. https://www.osac.gov/Country/SouthKorea/Content/Detail/Report/55d33eb7-21b6-4b2f-8ccb-18618d06536b Mzuccardo ( talk) 16:32, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
The Diplomat article is relevant to this article and has some other usable examples, but it doesn't clearly state that "Is the lack of appropriate online curriculum" for foreign student is racist, and frankly, I think such a claim seems like a stretch. I think this example should be removed as an OR. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:58, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
Grammatical Error: Add a quotation mark to the sentence ending in "not to protect refugees but to keep them out" just before the History section begins. Geographynerd101 ( talk) 12:19, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
Such topics, like these, are not for people to start making baseless claims. It is stated blatantly in the policies Wikipedia:Neutral point of view that you are not allowed to put unsourced claims in ANY article. This is an extremely serious topic, and just putting in these claims just to vent or have a laugh isn't something you should do. Notendiesonmyplate ( talk) 07:44, 14 July 2024 (UTC)