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Shortly after the fall of the Berlin wall, Germany was included into NATO. As multiple declassified documents, notes and cables show, together with newspaper articles by Der Spiegel, The New York Times (NYT) and Russia Beyond (the latter being referenced by the NYT), the inclusion of Germany into NATO followed a cascade of assurances to Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev given by Western leaders about the limits of NATO’s expansion.
Even at a distance of many years, on 2014, Mikhail Gorbachev confirmed in an interview that in 1990 “The agreement on a final settlement with Germany said that no new military structures would be created in the eastern part of the country; no additional troops would be deployed; no weapons of mass destruction would be placed there. [..] The decision for the U.S. and its allies to expand NATO into the east was decisively made in 1993. I called this a big mistake from the very beginning. It was definitely a violation of the spirit of the statements and assurances made to us in 1990.”, etc.
Following the interview of Yanis Varoufakis on Febryary 24 2022, where he said that “We have to create international solidarity [..] for NATO to keep out of Europe, and especially Eastern Europe, as, let’s not forget, George Bush — the senior George Bush — had promised Mikhail Gorbachev”, I was surprised that there is no mention about this promise on the Wikipedia page of NATO.
After a short investigation, however, it turned out that there have been several attempts indeed to insert this information, but many of these were reverted by the same user, Patrickneil, for example here, here, and here. His argument is essentially that this event is not notable, or not factual, without however engaging into a discussion (or at least not on his talk page).
On the other side, the Baker-Gorbachev Pact is well covered on a dedicated page of Wikipedia, but this page is very hard to find for someone who just visits the NATO article.
Given the key role that this event may be playing in the Ukraine war, which has been compared even to the Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962 when the Soviet Union vice-versa entered the sphere of influence of the US, I will proceed to reintroduce this event in the NATO page directly. If anybody want to discuss in more details, let’s please do it here. Morgoonki ( talk) 22:18, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
"The topic of “NATO expansion” was not discussed at all, and it wasn’t brought up in those years. I say this with full responsibility. Not a singe Eastern European country raised the issue, not even after the Warsaw Pact ceased to exist in 1991. Western leaders didn’t bring it up, either. Another issue we brought up was discussed: making sure that NATO’s military structures would not advance and that additional armed forces from the alliance would not be deployed on the territory of the then-GDR after German reunification. Baker’s statement, mentioned in your question, was made in that context. Kohl and [German Vice Chancellor Hans-Dietrich] Genscher talked about it."
“ | On 9 February 1990, in Moscow, Mr James Baker presented to Gorbachev and Shevardnadze his famous formula “not one inch eastward” (Gorbachev and Baker 1990a). And during his negotiations with Shevardnadze, on 4May 1990, he promised that the role of the CSCE would be strengthened and reassured him that the new international order would not yield winners and losers. Instead, it would produce
a new legitimate European structure—“one that would be inclusive, not exclusive” (Gorbachev and Baker 1990b). |
” |
@
Beland: Your edit introduces two inaccuracies: 1. there was not just a commitment by two people (Genscher and Baker as you wrote), but (as already discussed few lines above in this talk page) there are multiple memoranda of conversation between the Soviets and the highest-level Western interlocutors, including also Genscher, Kohl, Baker, Gates, Bush, Mitterrand, Thatcher, Major, Woerner; and 2. since the publication on December 12 2017 of the
declassified documents and cables by the National Security Archive, there is no longer a matter of dispute among historians and international relations scholars as you wrote: in fact, the references you cite to support this thesis (the two publications by the same author Kramer) are dated earlier (2009 and July 2017). See also the comments few lines above by Alaexis. I bring therefore the text to its previous version.
Morgoonki (
talk)
21:39, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
“ | The negotiations waged between 1990 and 1991 are seen not only as a part of recent history but also in the light of their consequences for the ISR in the Northern Hemisphere. The leading Western politicians of that period are often celebrated as the respected winners and founders of a radically new international order. On the other hand, some critical authors see the above-mentioned behaviour of the West as cynical hypocrisy and a merciless egoism which sowed the seeds of many future problems, especially the great bitterness among the Russian elites, which resulted in their determination to get revenge for the unjust end of the Cold War. | ” |
It doesn’t make sense to me that the “expenses” line in the info box refers to the combined military expenditures of the member states. This article is about the organization itself, so “expenses” ought to refer to the expenses of the organization, which are obviously well under a trillion dollars. To be clear, I think this information should be retained in the infobox, but I’m wondering what a more accurate heading would be. Wallnot ( talk) 05:12, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
NATO is a military alliance and, so, a fundamentaly a geopolitical entity. All discussion of geopolitics is missing from this article. The Soviet Union, the raison d'etre for the creation of NATO does not even find a mention in the lead. Nor does the article explain why NATO continues to exist even after the collapse of the Soviet Union. The debates surround the expansion of NATO after the end of Soviet Union are not discussed either. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 12:04, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
The specifics of the private discussion were as it related to East Germany, because that was what concerned Russia. Baker assured Russia that no foreign military bases would be built even one inch across the Berlin Wall into East Germany. We upheld that agreement, as evident by maps of military installations in Germany.
This was also confirmed by Gorbachev, as well as others present that day. Gorbachev was not even in negotiations at the time, the Soviets had ceased negotiations and resumed them 10 days later. Presumably, Baker's offer reached Gorbachev.
Of course, we all know that none of this was written at the time of the signing of the agreement by either party, and neither party even brought it up.
Thank you. My sources: Declassified documents of specific conversations between Baker and Russia, Gorbachev himself, Baker's assistant, several articles including a 2009 The Washington Quarterly article and a Nov 6, 2014 Brookings.edu article by Steven Pifer. 107.77.169.24 ( talk) 08:51, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
What are the benefits. 103.157.186.226 ( talk) 04:20, 15 March 2022 ? UTC)
@ Wallnot: well, I'm ready to discuss this. I see that there were various discussions in archives as well. This is not original research, we're making map based on the text NATO provides. It doesn't say that those two are under NATO protection. [1] even their own map doesn't show it. Again, art. 6 [2]:
For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:
on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France 2, on the territory of Turkey or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;
on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.
Similarly see
North_Atlantic_Treaty#Article_6: Article 6 states that the treaty covers only member states' territories in Europe and North America, Turkey and islands in the North Atlantic north of the
Tropic of Cancer, plus
French Algeria. It was the opinion in August 1965 of the US State Department, the US Defense Department and the legal division of NATO that an attack on the
U.S. state of
Hawaii would not trigger the treaty, but an attack on the other 49 would.
[1]
References
So I am saying that, instead putting member countries, describe it like that. It's misleading.
Beshogur ( talk) 15:05, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
If a single source says "A" in one context, and "B" in another, without connecting them, and does not provide an argument of "therefore C", then "therefore C" cannot be used in any article.See WP:SYNTH. We don't need a source stating that UK/USA/France's overseas departments are under NATO protection, because the caption presently reads "Land controlled by member states shown in dark green"—not "Land protected by alliance". Wallnot ( talk) 17:03, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
However obvious it is that they are north of the Tropic of CancerNope, they're south of it. That's what I'm saying. see map. Well, instead we can say with a note tag that territories south of Tropic of Cancer isn't under NATO protection, and change the main sentence as "Member states", instead of "Land controlled". Beshogur ( talk) 19:48, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
Right, north, south, whatever you said. I don't see that there's a need to change to change the note. "Land controlled by member states" is accurate. If you edit the map to remove land south of the tropic of cancer, "Member states" would be inaccurate, because that would exclude Hawaii (not to mention fact that territories are arguably part of the states themselves. Wallnot ( talk) 20:00, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
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Please add on the expenses column in pounds GBP £736.19 billion 192.175.42.246 ( talk) 20:58, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
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There needs to be country identifiers in the map. Anyone know how to do this? — 69.181.193.59 ( talk • contribs) 03:07, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
There's a good Military Operations section, but no Paramilitary Operations section. This should include for example the stay behind organisations which NATO created in Western Europe and which participated in right-wing terrorism. Faulty ( talk) 18:12, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
I agree, and that section should also include how those NATO missions were/are part of the CIA's history — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:5C4:200:5C40:C18E:5F3:7247:3519 ( talk) 20:55, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
"The three Scandinavian members Denmark, Iceland and Norway which joined NATO as founding members [...]". Iceland are not part of Scandinavia, only Norway, Sweden and Denmark are. Should change "Scandinavian" to "Nordic", where also Iceland and Finland are included. Marfug060302 ( talk) 08:50, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
Zelensky said only 1 % of NATO's tanks, could suffice to Ukraine. Can someone include the number of tanks, troops etc. Can also include a 2022 section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.193.35.108 ( talk) 11:58, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
Great, anyone who has edit privilege should add this number within the infobox I suppose. And for tanks, I suppose we have sources, for each country, they simply need to be gathered into an aggrgate number.-- 194.199.143.58 ( talk) 09:29, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by MingyueH ( talk • contribs) 00:26, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
Why is Iceland, Norway and Denmark labeled as Scandinavian when Nordic would be more correct? 2A01:799:1660:D300:CC01:B90D:A2F2:A8A9 ( talk) 16:25, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
NATO is not a system of collective security. It is a system of collective defense. The follow-up sentence describes precisely that. "...its independent member states agree to defend each other against attacks by third parties." That's effectively the definition of a system of collective defense. 2A02:8071:B81:2200:A585:9F47:7C72:FE65 ( talk) 12:52, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
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Remove the sentence "Talks between Turkey, Finland, and Sweden are underway to resolve the issue" as the sentence directly after, "On 28 June, at a NATO summit in Madrid, Turkey agreed to support the membership bids of Finland and Sweden" makes this line redundant Loganp23 ( talk) 04:37, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
1: Should NATO involvement in the war be added? 2: Would that section be called "Response to Russia-Ukraine War" or 'Involvement in Russia-Ukraine War" 3: Does pass by Wikipedia nobility guidelines?
Thanks for helping!
( BadKarma22 ( talk) 02:01, 7 May 2022 (UTC))
Another point: I think the global map showing Russia as a "Partnership of Peace" in orange should be updated. Thanks to those who do the work! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.117.141.141 ( talk) 14:06, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
The introduction reads: Enlargement has led to tensions with non-member Russia, which is one of the twenty additional countries that participate in NATO's Partnership for Peace programme. Is Russia still member of PfP? Or is it either suspended or excluded? -- 2A02:908:C33:A180:24A:8695:E001:28A7 ( talk) 16:07, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
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Change: “It is however officially a different structure from NATO” to: “It is however a structure different from NATO” {grammar}
Change: “NATO is an alliance of 30 sovereign nations but” to: “NATO is an alliance of 30 sovereign nations and” {there is no contradiction between both clause’s meanings} 86.90.202.241 ( talk) 03:13, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
Main captions currently reads " Land controlled by member states shown in dark green." I propose we change this to the much simpler "Member states in dark green." Territories are still parts of the member states (for instance Greenland is part of Denmark), so this caption would be simpler while still accurate. Garuda28 ( talk) 00:46, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
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Is it possible to add both Sweden and Finland to NATO member countries since the accession protocols are signed and completed recently? FireDragonValo ( talk) 19:43, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 1 August 2022 and 4 September 2022. Further details are available
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article contribs).
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Specific historical facts are routinely censored in this page as highlighted here. The quality of the discussion in the talk page has reached very low levels making it impossible to hold a conversation. The page is also a theater of edit-warring, which should cause immediate failure of being considered a good article. Morgoonki ( talk) 10:47, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
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On this page one can read that „NATO is a system of collective security“. This is objectively wrong and ought to be changed effective immediately. Take for example the heinous and despicable invasion of Jugoslavia by NATO, in which case NATO attacked and invaded Jugoslavia without being threatened by the Jugoslavia regime. Or the evil invasion of Iraq by NATO, where 3.2 million Iraqis were murdered by the „collective security“ system of NATO. 2A02:810C:4CBF:E144:74D3:E7A2:6013:E184 ( talk) 06:05, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
The recent entries on NATO appear old and stale. I attempted to introduce new historical sources, we have entries here that are over 10 years old, update these paragraphs! Osterluzei ( talk) 23:34, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
I noticed country flags were removed from the infobox. I would prefer restoring them, if only to make member states more easily identified, though I admit it is mostly a personal preference of mine. - Bokmanrocks01 ( talk) 19:00, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
It should be precised that, according to some like Baker, these assurances only applied to East Germany. The source from Der Spiegel is not really relevant imo as these diplomatic talks have not been discovered recently. Tom10tom ( talk) 22:42, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
in this sub-section, the date is incorrect, it's supposed to be September 27th, 2022, but instead its 3 months into the future Please fix this 2A10:8001:E494:0:1DC:E089:AF0B:4C27 ( talk) 23:48, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
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Remove "The entry of Finland and Sweden was ratified by Slovakia on 27 December 2022", as it is not December 27th. JrStudios The Wikipedian ( talk) 15:14, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
There's a lot of information that's been processed in the North Atlantic Treaty article that might do well to be here as well, but I don't know the best way to go about including it all, or what should be included here versus the NATO history article. E.g., the events listed as subsections under North Atlantic Treaty#Article 5 or the timeline from the table in North Atlantic Treaty#Article 4 or the intraparty disputes under North Atlantic Treaty#Articles 7 and 8. At the very least, the Syrian Civil War and subsequent Operation Active Fence missions should probably be mentioned or the ongoing Greco-Turkish Aegean dispute. Fephisto ( talk) 14:17, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
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Change map of countries in Europe to include Sweden and Finland as they have joined NATO.
Source: https://editorials.voa.gov/a/u-s-formally-approves-finland-and-sweden-s-nato-membership/6713334.html/ SirSkinner ( talk) 05:37, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
FINLAND and SWEDEN have already joined NATO 112.79.72.235 ( talk) 10:47, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
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There is a country in South America coloured green to indicate nato membership. Mistake? 72.139.196.244 ( talk) 18:23, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
Regarding :
Putin asked U.S. President Joe Biden for legal guarantees that NATO would not expand eastward or put "weapons systems that threaten us in close vicinity to Russian territory."
Article proceeds with a reply from Stoltenburg apparently to a different question 🤔
Should it not be President Bidens response that is published here? I understand Biden did in fact reply. Be1968 ( talk) 10:57, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
The addition of the countries of Finland, and Sweden are long overdue. They were admitted into NATO in mid-2022. (As a result of Russia's invasion of Ukraine.) Oceanic84 ( talk) 04:15, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
Asia is missing at the country allocation 95.112.75.90 ( talk) 18:11, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
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There is a Wiki page for the NATO motto "Animus in consulendo liber" (Latin: "A mind unfettered in deliberation"), but it is not linked or referenced anywhere in the main page for NATO. I am proposing to list the motto in the right side panel, underneath "Anthem". 50.221.62.202 ( talk) 15:24, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
I believe there may be a minor grammatical error under the "History" section. In the second last sentence of the paragraph talking about Russia's annexation of Crimea, it states "In March 2022, NATO leaders met at Brussels for an extraordinary summit which also involved Group of Seven and European Union leaders."
I'm pretty certain there's meant to be a "the" before "Group of Seven". Mindos2055 ( talk) 00:53, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
More out of curiosity, is Bermuda apart of NATO? StevoLaker ( talk) 16:15, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
We need a new nap that includes Finland. Znuddel ( talk) 07:16, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
Someone needs to update it from 30 to 31 in accordance with the accompanying membership map and the linked membership article. I’d do it myself, but the page is locked. Sodari ( talk) 08:32, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
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Nato now has 31 members with Finland,not 30. Text needs update 2A0A:A543:69A:0:9826:CFD7:8A61:46EB ( talk) 11:59, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
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As of April 4th, Finland has become a member of NATO.
https://apnews.com/article/finland-nato-hungary-turkey-membership-accession-13f879ea8e3a2458dfa22e59cea04e3f AndriyYatsykiv ( talk) 12:37, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
A current source to replace obsolete source [163] in the article:
Finland officially joined NATO on 4 April 2023. obsolete source
would be:
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_52044.htm
> Member countries
> Last updated: 04 Apr. 2023 15:06
> ... Finland deposited its Instrument of Accession to the North Atlantic Treaty on 4 April 2023, becoming NATO’s 31st member country.
Please update the obsolete source.
Rocketwidget (
talk)
13:27, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
The map in the beginning of the Membership section (NATO partnerships.svg) is obsolete and should be replaced to one including Finland. Znuddel ( talk) 14:38, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
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Change photo "1024px-North_Atlantic_Treaty_Organization_(orthographic_projection).svg.png" to include Finland as a member CubusXD ( talk) 13:14, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
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Under ‘enlargement’ subtitle - Change “NATO currently has two candidate countries that are in the process of joining the alliance: Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Sweden.” To “NATO currently has one candidate country in the process of joining the alliance: Bosnia and Herzegovina.” Calcorps ( talk) 15:07, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
If the security agreements only extend to territories north of the ToC, should that latitude be added to the global map? I thought to ask at the Map Lab. — kwami ( talk) 23:53, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
The map doesn't show Finland for me when the SVG map is rendered at certain resolutions. Right now, I have this problem at 240 × 240, 480 × 480 and 1024 × 1024 pixels. I have tried it on several computers with the same result. Does anyone else experience this problem and has an idea on what the cause might be? Thanks. Schweinchen ( talk) 11:09, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
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Hello, I would like to suggest adding the following text to the "History" section of the article:
"On April 4th, 2023, Finland officially became the newest member of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO). This came after Finland's instrument of accession was deposited with the United States government at NATO Headquarters in Brussels. The Accession Protocol was signed by all NATO Allies on July 5th, 2022, and subsequently ratified by all 30 national parliaments."
This information is supported by a reliable source published on NATO's official website: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_213448.htm
I believe this update is important for readers to know about NATO's current membership status. Thank you for your consideration.
-EdrianJade EdrianJade ( talk) 09:05, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
On the map of NATO on this article in the infobox you can see the border of Transylvania in Romania. Why? MeManBlaze ( talk) 20:41, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
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I have created a page about NATO's global partners. It is a relatively new page, but I hope to improve it, and that others will, in the course of time.
Under NATO#Membership, all partnership levels are linked to their respective pages. My request is for "Global Partners" to be linked to its new page.
XA1dUXvugi ( talk) XA1dUXvugi ( talk) 19:35, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
In the article about NATO, it lists several NATO bodies, including the text below. As of June, 2023, there is a new NATO body called DIANA, the Defence Innovation Accelerator for the North Atlantic. You can find out more at the DIANA website. Can you please update the article on NATO to reflect this. Thanks! James
The organizations and agencies of NATO include:
Headquarters for the NATO Support Agency will be in Capellen Luxembourg (site of the current NATO Maintenance and Supply Agency – NAMSA).
The NATO Communications and Information Agency Headquarters will be in Brussels, as will the very small staff which will design the new NATO Procurement Agency.
A new NATO Science and Technology Organization will be created before July 2012, consisting of Chief Scientist, a Programme Office for Collaborative S&T, and the NATO Undersea Research Centre (NURC).[citation needed]
The NATO Standardization Agency became the NATO Standardization Office (NSO) in July 2014.
Jamesalanwhite (
talk)
18:42, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
There is an important message missing about Hastings Lionel Ismay, who accepted the position but resigned after only six months to become the first Secretary General of NATO in 1952. During his tenure as Secretary General, Ismay is credited with being the first person to articulate the purpose of NATO as "to keep the Soviet Union out, the Americans in, and the Germans down." This saying has since become a common way to describe the dynamics of NATO. 67.180.19.54 ( talk) 19:10, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
Finland has joined it after the turkish parlament ratified it Lucasoliveira653 ( talk) 23:09, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
I appear Finland has not yet joined Nato according to the Guardian.-- とんずらする豚 ( talk) 23:42, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
In section Membership Finland is not included, and not highlighted dark green on any maps of this article yet Dogyuîgeghgd ( talk) 11:36, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
On this section: /info/en/?search=NATO#Special_arrangements
We learn that scandinavian countries have special agreements, but in Denmark we actually revoked most of ours by national referendum back in 2022: /info/en/?search=2022_Danish_European_Union_opt-out_referendum
I don't know how relevant is it for the larger picture of the article, just thought I'd point it out and see what you guys thought. 87.73.64.98 ( talk) 11:29, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
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I uploaded a new map to indicate pending and aspiring members. I now need a color key. Anyone willing to add one? JordanJa🎮es 92🐱9 00:01, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
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The alt text of the image on line 330 (below):
should read domed white church instead of white domed church.
REF: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/grammar/british-grammar/adjectives-order 82.173.107.220 ( talk) 09:23, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
four-sidedin the link that you posted). This is clearly visible if you look at usage online; see: "domed white church" (68 hits) vs "white domed church" (14,000 hits) ~ F4U ( talk • they/it) 15:38, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
"The alliance has increased its NATO Response Force deployments in Eastern Europe" - when? It has increased them many times, since e.g. in 2023 they are not the same as in 1953. Moreover, it was a counterforce not just to the USSR as stated, but to the Warsaw Pact as a whole. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.12.97.111 ( talk) 12:42, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
Can somebody explain why Finland and Sweden are not dark green on the map? 130.41.62.253 ( talk) 04:58, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
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NATO member states make up 956m people (12% of the worlds population) and 16% of the worlds habitable land area. [1] Asto77 ( talk) 06:01, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
"Membership" Section (Portugal is missing from the description of the 31 countries). The description and the map are correct in showing 31 members. But after Poland there should be Portugal on the list. 46.189.238.123 ( talk) 13:31, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Shortly after the fall of the Berlin wall, Germany was included into NATO. As multiple declassified documents, notes and cables show, together with newspaper articles by Der Spiegel, The New York Times (NYT) and Russia Beyond (the latter being referenced by the NYT), the inclusion of Germany into NATO followed a cascade of assurances to Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev given by Western leaders about the limits of NATO’s expansion.
Even at a distance of many years, on 2014, Mikhail Gorbachev confirmed in an interview that in 1990 “The agreement on a final settlement with Germany said that no new military structures would be created in the eastern part of the country; no additional troops would be deployed; no weapons of mass destruction would be placed there. [..] The decision for the U.S. and its allies to expand NATO into the east was decisively made in 1993. I called this a big mistake from the very beginning. It was definitely a violation of the spirit of the statements and assurances made to us in 1990.”, etc.
Following the interview of Yanis Varoufakis on Febryary 24 2022, where he said that “We have to create international solidarity [..] for NATO to keep out of Europe, and especially Eastern Europe, as, let’s not forget, George Bush — the senior George Bush — had promised Mikhail Gorbachev”, I was surprised that there is no mention about this promise on the Wikipedia page of NATO.
After a short investigation, however, it turned out that there have been several attempts indeed to insert this information, but many of these were reverted by the same user, Patrickneil, for example here, here, and here. His argument is essentially that this event is not notable, or not factual, without however engaging into a discussion (or at least not on his talk page).
On the other side, the Baker-Gorbachev Pact is well covered on a dedicated page of Wikipedia, but this page is very hard to find for someone who just visits the NATO article.
Given the key role that this event may be playing in the Ukraine war, which has been compared even to the Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962 when the Soviet Union vice-versa entered the sphere of influence of the US, I will proceed to reintroduce this event in the NATO page directly. If anybody want to discuss in more details, let’s please do it here. Morgoonki ( talk) 22:18, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
"The topic of “NATO expansion” was not discussed at all, and it wasn’t brought up in those years. I say this with full responsibility. Not a singe Eastern European country raised the issue, not even after the Warsaw Pact ceased to exist in 1991. Western leaders didn’t bring it up, either. Another issue we brought up was discussed: making sure that NATO’s military structures would not advance and that additional armed forces from the alliance would not be deployed on the territory of the then-GDR after German reunification. Baker’s statement, mentioned in your question, was made in that context. Kohl and [German Vice Chancellor Hans-Dietrich] Genscher talked about it."
“ | On 9 February 1990, in Moscow, Mr James Baker presented to Gorbachev and Shevardnadze his famous formula “not one inch eastward” (Gorbachev and Baker 1990a). And during his negotiations with Shevardnadze, on 4May 1990, he promised that the role of the CSCE would be strengthened and reassured him that the new international order would not yield winners and losers. Instead, it would produce
a new legitimate European structure—“one that would be inclusive, not exclusive” (Gorbachev and Baker 1990b). |
” |
@
Beland: Your edit introduces two inaccuracies: 1. there was not just a commitment by two people (Genscher and Baker as you wrote), but (as already discussed few lines above in this talk page) there are multiple memoranda of conversation between the Soviets and the highest-level Western interlocutors, including also Genscher, Kohl, Baker, Gates, Bush, Mitterrand, Thatcher, Major, Woerner; and 2. since the publication on December 12 2017 of the
declassified documents and cables by the National Security Archive, there is no longer a matter of dispute among historians and international relations scholars as you wrote: in fact, the references you cite to support this thesis (the two publications by the same author Kramer) are dated earlier (2009 and July 2017). See also the comments few lines above by Alaexis. I bring therefore the text to its previous version.
Morgoonki (
talk)
21:39, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
“ | The negotiations waged between 1990 and 1991 are seen not only as a part of recent history but also in the light of their consequences for the ISR in the Northern Hemisphere. The leading Western politicians of that period are often celebrated as the respected winners and founders of a radically new international order. On the other hand, some critical authors see the above-mentioned behaviour of the West as cynical hypocrisy and a merciless egoism which sowed the seeds of many future problems, especially the great bitterness among the Russian elites, which resulted in their determination to get revenge for the unjust end of the Cold War. | ” |
It doesn’t make sense to me that the “expenses” line in the info box refers to the combined military expenditures of the member states. This article is about the organization itself, so “expenses” ought to refer to the expenses of the organization, which are obviously well under a trillion dollars. To be clear, I think this information should be retained in the infobox, but I’m wondering what a more accurate heading would be. Wallnot ( talk) 05:12, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
NATO is a military alliance and, so, a fundamentaly a geopolitical entity. All discussion of geopolitics is missing from this article. The Soviet Union, the raison d'etre for the creation of NATO does not even find a mention in the lead. Nor does the article explain why NATO continues to exist even after the collapse of the Soviet Union. The debates surround the expansion of NATO after the end of Soviet Union are not discussed either. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 12:04, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
The specifics of the private discussion were as it related to East Germany, because that was what concerned Russia. Baker assured Russia that no foreign military bases would be built even one inch across the Berlin Wall into East Germany. We upheld that agreement, as evident by maps of military installations in Germany.
This was also confirmed by Gorbachev, as well as others present that day. Gorbachev was not even in negotiations at the time, the Soviets had ceased negotiations and resumed them 10 days later. Presumably, Baker's offer reached Gorbachev.
Of course, we all know that none of this was written at the time of the signing of the agreement by either party, and neither party even brought it up.
Thank you. My sources: Declassified documents of specific conversations between Baker and Russia, Gorbachev himself, Baker's assistant, several articles including a 2009 The Washington Quarterly article and a Nov 6, 2014 Brookings.edu article by Steven Pifer. 107.77.169.24 ( talk) 08:51, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
What are the benefits. 103.157.186.226 ( talk) 04:20, 15 March 2022 ? UTC)
@ Wallnot: well, I'm ready to discuss this. I see that there were various discussions in archives as well. This is not original research, we're making map based on the text NATO provides. It doesn't say that those two are under NATO protection. [1] even their own map doesn't show it. Again, art. 6 [2]:
For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:
on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France 2, on the territory of Turkey or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;
on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.
Similarly see
North_Atlantic_Treaty#Article_6: Article 6 states that the treaty covers only member states' territories in Europe and North America, Turkey and islands in the North Atlantic north of the
Tropic of Cancer, plus
French Algeria. It was the opinion in August 1965 of the US State Department, the US Defense Department and the legal division of NATO that an attack on the
U.S. state of
Hawaii would not trigger the treaty, but an attack on the other 49 would.
[1]
References
So I am saying that, instead putting member countries, describe it like that. It's misleading.
Beshogur ( talk) 15:05, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
If a single source says "A" in one context, and "B" in another, without connecting them, and does not provide an argument of "therefore C", then "therefore C" cannot be used in any article.See WP:SYNTH. We don't need a source stating that UK/USA/France's overseas departments are under NATO protection, because the caption presently reads "Land controlled by member states shown in dark green"—not "Land protected by alliance". Wallnot ( talk) 17:03, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
However obvious it is that they are north of the Tropic of CancerNope, they're south of it. That's what I'm saying. see map. Well, instead we can say with a note tag that territories south of Tropic of Cancer isn't under NATO protection, and change the main sentence as "Member states", instead of "Land controlled". Beshogur ( talk) 19:48, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
Right, north, south, whatever you said. I don't see that there's a need to change to change the note. "Land controlled by member states" is accurate. If you edit the map to remove land south of the tropic of cancer, "Member states" would be inaccurate, because that would exclude Hawaii (not to mention fact that territories are arguably part of the states themselves. Wallnot ( talk) 20:00, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
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Please add on the expenses column in pounds GBP £736.19 billion 192.175.42.246 ( talk) 20:58, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
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There needs to be country identifiers in the map. Anyone know how to do this? — 69.181.193.59 ( talk • contribs) 03:07, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
There's a good Military Operations section, but no Paramilitary Operations section. This should include for example the stay behind organisations which NATO created in Western Europe and which participated in right-wing terrorism. Faulty ( talk) 18:12, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
I agree, and that section should also include how those NATO missions were/are part of the CIA's history — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:5C4:200:5C40:C18E:5F3:7247:3519 ( talk) 20:55, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
"The three Scandinavian members Denmark, Iceland and Norway which joined NATO as founding members [...]". Iceland are not part of Scandinavia, only Norway, Sweden and Denmark are. Should change "Scandinavian" to "Nordic", where also Iceland and Finland are included. Marfug060302 ( talk) 08:50, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
Zelensky said only 1 % of NATO's tanks, could suffice to Ukraine. Can someone include the number of tanks, troops etc. Can also include a 2022 section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.193.35.108 ( talk) 11:58, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
Great, anyone who has edit privilege should add this number within the infobox I suppose. And for tanks, I suppose we have sources, for each country, they simply need to be gathered into an aggrgate number.-- 194.199.143.58 ( talk) 09:29, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by MingyueH ( talk • contribs) 00:26, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
Why is Iceland, Norway and Denmark labeled as Scandinavian when Nordic would be more correct? 2A01:799:1660:D300:CC01:B90D:A2F2:A8A9 ( talk) 16:25, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
NATO is not a system of collective security. It is a system of collective defense. The follow-up sentence describes precisely that. "...its independent member states agree to defend each other against attacks by third parties." That's effectively the definition of a system of collective defense. 2A02:8071:B81:2200:A585:9F47:7C72:FE65 ( talk) 12:52, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
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Remove the sentence "Talks between Turkey, Finland, and Sweden are underway to resolve the issue" as the sentence directly after, "On 28 June, at a NATO summit in Madrid, Turkey agreed to support the membership bids of Finland and Sweden" makes this line redundant Loganp23 ( talk) 04:37, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
1: Should NATO involvement in the war be added? 2: Would that section be called "Response to Russia-Ukraine War" or 'Involvement in Russia-Ukraine War" 3: Does pass by Wikipedia nobility guidelines?
Thanks for helping!
( BadKarma22 ( talk) 02:01, 7 May 2022 (UTC))
Another point: I think the global map showing Russia as a "Partnership of Peace" in orange should be updated. Thanks to those who do the work! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.117.141.141 ( talk) 14:06, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
The introduction reads: Enlargement has led to tensions with non-member Russia, which is one of the twenty additional countries that participate in NATO's Partnership for Peace programme. Is Russia still member of PfP? Or is it either suspended or excluded? -- 2A02:908:C33:A180:24A:8695:E001:28A7 ( talk) 16:07, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
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Change: “It is however officially a different structure from NATO” to: “It is however a structure different from NATO” {grammar}
Change: “NATO is an alliance of 30 sovereign nations but” to: “NATO is an alliance of 30 sovereign nations and” {there is no contradiction between both clause’s meanings} 86.90.202.241 ( talk) 03:13, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
Main captions currently reads " Land controlled by member states shown in dark green." I propose we change this to the much simpler "Member states in dark green." Territories are still parts of the member states (for instance Greenland is part of Denmark), so this caption would be simpler while still accurate. Garuda28 ( talk) 00:46, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
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Is it possible to add both Sweden and Finland to NATO member countries since the accession protocols are signed and completed recently? FireDragonValo ( talk) 19:43, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 1 August 2022 and 4 September 2022. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
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article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by Rasmih ( talk) 06:55, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Specific historical facts are routinely censored in this page as highlighted here. The quality of the discussion in the talk page has reached very low levels making it impossible to hold a conversation. The page is also a theater of edit-warring, which should cause immediate failure of being considered a good article. Morgoonki ( talk) 10:47, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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On this page one can read that „NATO is a system of collective security“. This is objectively wrong and ought to be changed effective immediately. Take for example the heinous and despicable invasion of Jugoslavia by NATO, in which case NATO attacked and invaded Jugoslavia without being threatened by the Jugoslavia regime. Or the evil invasion of Iraq by NATO, where 3.2 million Iraqis were murdered by the „collective security“ system of NATO. 2A02:810C:4CBF:E144:74D3:E7A2:6013:E184 ( talk) 06:05, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
The recent entries on NATO appear old and stale. I attempted to introduce new historical sources, we have entries here that are over 10 years old, update these paragraphs! Osterluzei ( talk) 23:34, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
I noticed country flags were removed from the infobox. I would prefer restoring them, if only to make member states more easily identified, though I admit it is mostly a personal preference of mine. - Bokmanrocks01 ( talk) 19:00, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
It should be precised that, according to some like Baker, these assurances only applied to East Germany. The source from Der Spiegel is not really relevant imo as these diplomatic talks have not been discovered recently. Tom10tom ( talk) 22:42, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
in this sub-section, the date is incorrect, it's supposed to be September 27th, 2022, but instead its 3 months into the future Please fix this 2A10:8001:E494:0:1DC:E089:AF0B:4C27 ( talk) 23:48, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
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Remove "The entry of Finland and Sweden was ratified by Slovakia on 27 December 2022", as it is not December 27th. JrStudios The Wikipedian ( talk) 15:14, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
There's a lot of information that's been processed in the North Atlantic Treaty article that might do well to be here as well, but I don't know the best way to go about including it all, or what should be included here versus the NATO history article. E.g., the events listed as subsections under North Atlantic Treaty#Article 5 or the timeline from the table in North Atlantic Treaty#Article 4 or the intraparty disputes under North Atlantic Treaty#Articles 7 and 8. At the very least, the Syrian Civil War and subsequent Operation Active Fence missions should probably be mentioned or the ongoing Greco-Turkish Aegean dispute. Fephisto ( talk) 14:17, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
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Change map of countries in Europe to include Sweden and Finland as they have joined NATO.
Source: https://editorials.voa.gov/a/u-s-formally-approves-finland-and-sweden-s-nato-membership/6713334.html/ SirSkinner ( talk) 05:37, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
FINLAND and SWEDEN have already joined NATO 112.79.72.235 ( talk) 10:47, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
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There is a country in South America coloured green to indicate nato membership. Mistake? 72.139.196.244 ( talk) 18:23, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
Regarding :
Putin asked U.S. President Joe Biden for legal guarantees that NATO would not expand eastward or put "weapons systems that threaten us in close vicinity to Russian territory."
Article proceeds with a reply from Stoltenburg apparently to a different question 🤔
Should it not be President Bidens response that is published here? I understand Biden did in fact reply. Be1968 ( talk) 10:57, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
The addition of the countries of Finland, and Sweden are long overdue. They were admitted into NATO in mid-2022. (As a result of Russia's invasion of Ukraine.) Oceanic84 ( talk) 04:15, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
Asia is missing at the country allocation 95.112.75.90 ( talk) 18:11, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
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There is a Wiki page for the NATO motto "Animus in consulendo liber" (Latin: "A mind unfettered in deliberation"), but it is not linked or referenced anywhere in the main page for NATO. I am proposing to list the motto in the right side panel, underneath "Anthem". 50.221.62.202 ( talk) 15:24, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
I believe there may be a minor grammatical error under the "History" section. In the second last sentence of the paragraph talking about Russia's annexation of Crimea, it states "In March 2022, NATO leaders met at Brussels for an extraordinary summit which also involved Group of Seven and European Union leaders."
I'm pretty certain there's meant to be a "the" before "Group of Seven". Mindos2055 ( talk) 00:53, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
More out of curiosity, is Bermuda apart of NATO? StevoLaker ( talk) 16:15, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
We need a new nap that includes Finland. Znuddel ( talk) 07:16, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
Someone needs to update it from 30 to 31 in accordance with the accompanying membership map and the linked membership article. I’d do it myself, but the page is locked. Sodari ( talk) 08:32, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
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Nato now has 31 members with Finland,not 30. Text needs update 2A0A:A543:69A:0:9826:CFD7:8A61:46EB ( talk) 11:59, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
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As of April 4th, Finland has become a member of NATO.
https://apnews.com/article/finland-nato-hungary-turkey-membership-accession-13f879ea8e3a2458dfa22e59cea04e3f AndriyYatsykiv ( talk) 12:37, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
A current source to replace obsolete source [163] in the article:
Finland officially joined NATO on 4 April 2023. obsolete source
would be:
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_52044.htm
> Member countries
> Last updated: 04 Apr. 2023 15:06
> ... Finland deposited its Instrument of Accession to the North Atlantic Treaty on 4 April 2023, becoming NATO’s 31st member country.
Please update the obsolete source.
Rocketwidget (
talk)
13:27, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
The map in the beginning of the Membership section (NATO partnerships.svg) is obsolete and should be replaced to one including Finland. Znuddel ( talk) 14:38, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
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Change photo "1024px-North_Atlantic_Treaty_Organization_(orthographic_projection).svg.png" to include Finland as a member CubusXD ( talk) 13:14, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
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Under ‘enlargement’ subtitle - Change “NATO currently has two candidate countries that are in the process of joining the alliance: Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Sweden.” To “NATO currently has one candidate country in the process of joining the alliance: Bosnia and Herzegovina.” Calcorps ( talk) 15:07, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
If the security agreements only extend to territories north of the ToC, should that latitude be added to the global map? I thought to ask at the Map Lab. — kwami ( talk) 23:53, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
The map doesn't show Finland for me when the SVG map is rendered at certain resolutions. Right now, I have this problem at 240 × 240, 480 × 480 and 1024 × 1024 pixels. I have tried it on several computers with the same result. Does anyone else experience this problem and has an idea on what the cause might be? Thanks. Schweinchen ( talk) 11:09, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
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Hello, I would like to suggest adding the following text to the "History" section of the article:
"On April 4th, 2023, Finland officially became the newest member of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO). This came after Finland's instrument of accession was deposited with the United States government at NATO Headquarters in Brussels. The Accession Protocol was signed by all NATO Allies on July 5th, 2022, and subsequently ratified by all 30 national parliaments."
This information is supported by a reliable source published on NATO's official website: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_213448.htm
I believe this update is important for readers to know about NATO's current membership status. Thank you for your consideration.
-EdrianJade EdrianJade ( talk) 09:05, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
On the map of NATO on this article in the infobox you can see the border of Transylvania in Romania. Why? MeManBlaze ( talk) 20:41, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
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I have created a page about NATO's global partners. It is a relatively new page, but I hope to improve it, and that others will, in the course of time.
Under NATO#Membership, all partnership levels are linked to their respective pages. My request is for "Global Partners" to be linked to its new page.
XA1dUXvugi ( talk) XA1dUXvugi ( talk) 19:35, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
In the article about NATO, it lists several NATO bodies, including the text below. As of June, 2023, there is a new NATO body called DIANA, the Defence Innovation Accelerator for the North Atlantic. You can find out more at the DIANA website. Can you please update the article on NATO to reflect this. Thanks! James
The organizations and agencies of NATO include:
Headquarters for the NATO Support Agency will be in Capellen Luxembourg (site of the current NATO Maintenance and Supply Agency – NAMSA).
The NATO Communications and Information Agency Headquarters will be in Brussels, as will the very small staff which will design the new NATO Procurement Agency.
A new NATO Science and Technology Organization will be created before July 2012, consisting of Chief Scientist, a Programme Office for Collaborative S&T, and the NATO Undersea Research Centre (NURC).[citation needed]
The NATO Standardization Agency became the NATO Standardization Office (NSO) in July 2014.
Jamesalanwhite (
talk)
18:42, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
There is an important message missing about Hastings Lionel Ismay, who accepted the position but resigned after only six months to become the first Secretary General of NATO in 1952. During his tenure as Secretary General, Ismay is credited with being the first person to articulate the purpose of NATO as "to keep the Soviet Union out, the Americans in, and the Germans down." This saying has since become a common way to describe the dynamics of NATO. 67.180.19.54 ( talk) 19:10, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
Finland has joined it after the turkish parlament ratified it Lucasoliveira653 ( talk) 23:09, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
I appear Finland has not yet joined Nato according to the Guardian.-- とんずらする豚 ( talk) 23:42, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
In section Membership Finland is not included, and not highlighted dark green on any maps of this article yet Dogyuîgeghgd ( talk) 11:36, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
On this section: /info/en/?search=NATO#Special_arrangements
We learn that scandinavian countries have special agreements, but in Denmark we actually revoked most of ours by national referendum back in 2022: /info/en/?search=2022_Danish_European_Union_opt-out_referendum
I don't know how relevant is it for the larger picture of the article, just thought I'd point it out and see what you guys thought. 87.73.64.98 ( talk) 11:29, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
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I uploaded a new map to indicate pending and aspiring members. I now need a color key. Anyone willing to add one? JordanJa🎮es 92🐱9 00:01, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
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The alt text of the image on line 330 (below):
should read domed white church instead of white domed church.
REF: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/grammar/british-grammar/adjectives-order 82.173.107.220 ( talk) 09:23, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
four-sidedin the link that you posted). This is clearly visible if you look at usage online; see: "domed white church" (68 hits) vs "white domed church" (14,000 hits) ~ F4U ( talk • they/it) 15:38, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
"The alliance has increased its NATO Response Force deployments in Eastern Europe" - when? It has increased them many times, since e.g. in 2023 they are not the same as in 1953. Moreover, it was a counterforce not just to the USSR as stated, but to the Warsaw Pact as a whole. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.12.97.111 ( talk) 12:42, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
Can somebody explain why Finland and Sweden are not dark green on the map? 130.41.62.253 ( talk) 04:58, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
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NATO member states make up 956m people (12% of the worlds population) and 16% of the worlds habitable land area. [1] Asto77 ( talk) 06:01, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
"Membership" Section (Portugal is missing from the description of the 31 countries). The description and the map are correct in showing 31 members. But after Poland there should be Portugal on the list. 46.189.238.123 ( talk) 13:31, 3 November 2023 (UTC)