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I do not see why we must have the section The world in the article. I think the section should be deleted / merged into other sections. It has not been changed much since it was created in July 2004 and therefore it does not fit to the concept of the rest of the article anymore. It seems to deal with two different topics which do not really fit to the title:
The first paragraph of the section describes the relation of the geography of Middle-earth to that of today's world, which would rather belong into the section geography. Anyhow I think the relation is presented wrongly. The article says that "Gondor might lie in the Mediterranean Italy and Greece" whereas the article Arda states that Tolkien said Minas Tirith corresponded to Vienna (In the map used in this article the distance between the Shire and Minas Tirith is approximately 900 miles, which equals the distance between England and Vienna)
The other three paragraphs deal with the writings of Tolkien. I think this part should be put into the section Books which lacks of prose text anyway.
I would like to delete the first pargraph and merge the rest into the section Books -- Galadh 07:33, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
The Middle-Earth version of Risk is out, and there is also a card game version that could be added under adaptations section. PeregrineV 20:07, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
This article's featured status is being reviewed. See link at top of page, reproduced here: Wikipedia:Featured_article_review/Middle-earth. Carcharoth 09:09, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I am now in the process of adding references to this article. Please bear with me for the next few hours as I tidy up after myself. Carcharoth 12:53, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I removed a link to the Ardalambion website from the external links of this article because such a link is more appropriate at Languages of Arda (to which Languages of Middle-earth redirects), which is linked from the languages section of this article. Carcharoth 18:01, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
OK. How does this sound for the opening paragraph?
I think that gets across the idea that the term Middle-earth existed before Tolkien, and that Tolkien was using it in a very specific sense, that of the mythological and classical worldview of the known world. Carcharoth 00:48, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Ive deleted one of the links because it did not lead to what it was supposed to. le Dan 01:15, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
The Morwen Steelsheen article lacks any references and seems useless to stand on its own. As far as I know the character only exists in relation to the subject of this article and therefore should only be piece of it. I propose a merge. Alan.ca 12:46, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure if it's relevant, but I know Joseph Jacobs uses "Middle Earth" in Childe Rowland in his 1890 English Fairy Tales.-- Pharos 18:04, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
From reading the section "animals also appear, such as the Eagles, Huan the Great Hound from Valinor, the Balrog and the wolf-like Wargs. The Eagles were created by Ilúvatar along with the Ents, and the Balrogs were bred by Morgoth, but in general these animals' origins and nature are unclear. Some of them might have been Maiar in animal form, or perhaps even the offspring of Maiar and normal animals. The giant spiders such as Shelob were descended from normal spiders and Ungoliant, who is possibly an Ainu."
Balrogs were not bred by Morgoth, they were just corrupted by him early on.
It it mentioned in canon that the 'giant spiders' were only descended from Ungoliant and not from 'normal spiders'.
le Dan ( talk) 15:49, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
There are a HUGE number of inaccuracies in the article. The opening sentence, claiming that most of Tolkien's stories are set in Middle-earth, is completely wrong. Unfortunately, the entire Middle-earth section has been reworked extensively under the influence of one of the great manglers of Tolkien's legendarium, Conrad Dunkerson (now a Wikipedia admin), and I gave up trying to fix the problems he introduced years ago. When he attributed David Day's "ages of the sun" expression to me and people believed his claim that it was my own "original research", I knew there was no point in continuing the debate. This whole series of articles violates Wikipedia's "original research" principle in numerous ways.
THE BOOK OF LOST TALES is not set in Middle-earth, for example, but is rather based in a fictional prehistoric England. There was no conception of "Middle-earth" or anything like it when Tolkien wrote THE BOOK OF LOST TALES. These articles, however, misrepresent Tolkien's work as if it were a continuous stream of evolutionary developments rather than successive starts and restarts that he later wove together retroactively in concept.
Other examples of inaccuracies include: equating Arda with the Earth (Tolkien equated Arda with the Solar System); Endor is the Elvish for "Middle-earth" (actually, it means only "middle land"); Nargothrond was only a fortress (in fact, it was the capitol city of Finrod's kingdom); Halflings were only half the size of Men (Tolkien associated the meaning more specifically with the height of Numenorean or Dunedain men). I'
The article is also incomplete in its adaptations section. Although I would not recommend any attempt to exhaustively list stage play productions, there have been many -- some for commercial projects and most for school projects. The "Other Works" section fails to mention the implied references to Middle-earth (or elements that were incorporated into Middle-earth) in Tolkien's other books (such as Roverandom and Smith of Wootton Major). Michael Martinez ( talk) 18:55, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
The very first Middle-earth MU* game was in fact Middle-Earth MUD (not the reincarnation from 2003, but the MUD that was server-based) from approximately 1990-1992. I played it while I was in college until it shut down, and I added a newsgroup reference that mentions it- back then, newsgroups and usergroups were really all we had, and it is the best available documentation to be found for the period of pre-internet 'online' gaming. Monsieurdl mon talk- mon contribs 16:39, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Rohan and Gondor are recognisably states; but how would the other "geographically defined entities" be defined? The Shire and Breeland are a communities - defined be their various inhabitants and would be recognised as such by outsiders: but what would be appropriate terms for them, Rivendell and other communities? Jackiespeel ( talk) 17:52, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure that one can classify either as a true nation-state... it would be nice if someone had additional information about the political geography of Middle-earth, be it from Tolkien or otherwise. Blackhawk003 ( talk) 05:17, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Shouldn't this page have more information on notable references (Middle Earth in Other Works) and a section on notable illustrators, concept albums (notable music), and the like? 216.15.63.67 ( talk) 23:46, 25 September 2009 (UTC) BER
I always believed that the world was called Middle-Earth. Here though there seems to be the following possibilites,
Which is it? ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! ( talk) 06:18, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
This paragraph about Germanic mythology does not have any sources connecting it to Tolkien's use of the term "Middle-earth". Without those sources, it's a synthesis and can't be used in this article. I moved it here for comment rather than just deleting it, because it's interesting and well-written.
In ancient Germanic mythology, the world of Men is known by several names, such as Midgard, Middenheim, Manaheim, and Middengeard, and is located in the centre of the universe; while Bifröst, the rainbow bridge, extended from Middle-earth to Asgard, the land of the gods. Beneath Middle-earth lay Hel, the land of the Dead. The universe as a whole was believed to consist of nine physical "worlds" joined together. The precise arrangement of these worlds is uncertain. According to one view, seven worlds lay across an encircling sea: The lands of Elves ( Alfheim), Dwarves ( Niðavellir), Gods ( Asgard and Vanaheim), and Giants ( Jotunheim and Muspelheim). Other Norse scholars place these seven worlds in the sky, in the branches of Yggdrasil the "World Ash Tree" (possibly the inspiration for the Two Trees of Valinor).
If anyone has sources for relating this to Tolkien's Middle-earth, please provide them. Thanks. -- Jack-A-Roe ( talk) 09:03, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Its a good interview made in Januarary 1971 and worthy of being cited. But I must point out a few things, Tolkien wasn't necessarily consistent with his comments. He made similar claims as to the world being a kind of secondary imagination in several letters as early as 1944 (although this is more a nod to some of his prototype ideas most likely), even. During that time he was also writing letters stating that his world was earth, and/or took place in distant past. He even states in that interview that his books take place in "our world" (although he is unclear about the "timing" issue, instead bringing up one of his alternative imagination comments). BTW, the idea of the stories taking place on earth in the distant past, is even stated in the Appendices D Calenders in LOTR itself.
However, its clear he hadn't give up the Middle-earth is earth, and in a couple of later letters, dated July 1971, and one in "Autumn 1971", he mentions the idea of his books taking place in an distant epoch of Earth's past again.
What does this mean? Well only Tolkien believed whatever he believed. He may have had two distinct yet overlapping interpretations of the world. The most commonly repeated comment however, was that it's supposed to take place in "our world" (his words not mine) of Earth. It's a good example why one should avoid reading too much into what he said in his interviews... and rather look at culmination of everything he had ever said :p... 137.222.231.108 ( talk) 15:35, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
following up on a comment by Tony, copied here from Wikipedia:Featured_article_review/Middle-earth
I've edited the opening thus, ahem ...
WAS: Middle-earth is a term used by the author J. R. R. Tolkien to refer to the geographical setting of many of the tales of his legendarium,....
IS: Middle-earth is the geographical setting of many of the tales of J. R. R. Tolkien's legendarium,....
- Tony 02:53, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
"Oh yes, they're the same word. Most people have made this mistake of thinking Middle-earth is a particular kind of earth or is another planet of the science fiction sort but it's just an old fashioned word for this world we live in, as imagined surrounded by the Ocean." However, he continued to make references to it being "
Chad.burrus edited the first instance of "word" to "world", which does make slightly more sense. It's been reverted now, but I'm curious if anyone actually knows which one it is, and if it is the former, in what context is it used? -- Lolinder ( talk) 02:13, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
-- Chatatea ( talk) 00:09, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
The article mentions there being 2 roleplaying games. There are now three. The One Ring has just been released: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubicle_7#The_One_Ring:_The_Lord_of_the_Rings_Roleplaying_Game — Preceding unsigned comment added by Voidstate ( talk • contribs) 15:37, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
Quote: "A prequel trilogy is currently in production in New Zealand under the direction of Peter Jackson. The three films are scheduled for release in December 2012, 2013, and Summer 2014." - I get the feeling the person who wrote this may be an American. Who's summer are we talking about? December 2014? There are two summers in a year. 121.73.7.84 ( talk) 10:21, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
I don't really want to edit stuff, as I am not sure of how to do it properly. Regardless, I would like to point out that in his work "The Worm Ouroboros" Eddinson use the expression middle-earth 4 times. Here they are:
Chap IV: Conjuring in the Iron Tower "Therewith came forth that offspring of perdition from its hole, strutting erect on its two legs that were the legs of a cock; and a cock’s head it had, with rosy comb and wattles, but the face of it like no fowl’s face of middle-earth but rather a gorgon’s out of Hell."
Chap XIV. THE LAKE OF RAVARY "At length when winter was gone in middle earth, and the spring far spent, back came that last little martlet on weary wing she they had long given up for lost."
Chap XXVIII. ZORA RACH NAM PSARRION "And that was a note not like a bird’s of middle earth, but a note to charm down spirits out of the air, or to witch the imperishable senses of the Gods when they would hold communion with holy Night and make her perfect, and all her lamps and voices perfect in their eyes."
"What man of middle-earth is this that troubleth our quiet? Make an end! Call up the basilisks."
I hope it helps. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.15.199.131 ( talk) 01:53, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Concern was raised at Wikipedia:Featured article review/Middle-earth about the images used in this article. I've removed two speculative maps (probably based on descriptions in the texts, or on the early maps that were published in HoME): Image:Aman Valinor.jpg and Image:arda.png. I then put the three remaining 'main' maps in a gallery section of a "Maps" section. This section is intended to have discussion about the maps, and hopefully provide "fair use" justification for using these map images in the article, or even scans of the maps from the books. If a detailed enough discussion arose, the other two images above could be added back in.
Do people think this will this alleviate the concerns about image use in this article? Carcharoth 02:16, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
The only thing I can contribute about the images, is that the huge SVG file absolutely brings my computer to a crawl. SVG and vector formats have obvious advantages, but the rendering power required for that image kills any scalability benefit. (I'm running a P4 with 1 GB RAM, for reference, no performance problems.)
There is still no map of Middle-earth in Commons. What can be done? Is it OK, if someone paint a map according to the map in Hobbit, Atlas of Middle-Earth and other books and put it in Commons under cc licence? ( Wajstojfl ( talk) 07:05, 15 May 2017 (UTC))
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See http://peterbird.name/pictures/Middle-Earth.jpg (the map) and http://peterbird.name/ homepage plus/or http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2007/06/03/ map plus external comment
There is a populated place in Maryland, USA called Middle Earth. I'm wondering how that came about. -- Dtkinzer ( talk) 02:44, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Is there a reference for Tolkien's derivation of the term from the Middle English middel-erde, rather than his merely using a direct translation of the Old English middangeard?
It seems particularly strange to insist on the Norse-derived "erde", when English has always had "earth" (ending in a dental fricative): "eorð" in Old English, and the modern form at least since Chaucer. -- Saforrest 04:12, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
He did use middangeard but apparently "Middle-earth" strictly derives from a different word. From the Midgard article:
The name middangeard occurs half a dozen times in the Anglo-Saxon epic poem Beowulf, and is the same word as Midgard in Old Norse. The term is equivalent in meaning to the Greek term Oikoumene, as referring to the known and inhabited world.
The concept of Midgard occurs many times in Middle English, The association with earth (OE eorðe) in Middle English middellærd, middelerde is by popular etymology; the continuation of geard "enclosure" is yard. An early example of this transformation is from the Ormulum:
- þatt ure Drihhtin wollde / ben borenn i þiss middellærd
- that our Lord wanted / be born in this middle-earth.
The usage of "Middle-earth" as a name for a setting was popularized by Old English scholar J. R. R. Tolkien in his The Lord of the Rings and other fantasy works; he was originally inspired by the references to middangeard and Éarendel in the Old English poem Crist.
So if there was a confusion of words, Tolkien may have not realized it. Also see Talk:Midgard. (I only learned about this myself through here). Uthanc 00:53, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Why no mention at all that Mediterreanean means Middle Earth? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.223.204.45 ( talk) 18:58, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
The introduction refers to Middle-earth as the "central continent of Earth", which I consider correct. However the intro also refers to Middle-earth as "the north continent". Tolkien himself, in his Prologue to The Lord of the Rings, indicated an equivalence to the Old World: "the regions in which Hobbits then lived were doubtless the same as ... the North-West of the Old World". Accordingly I think this equivalence (to the Old World) should be noted in the intro.
The intro goes on to state that Middle-earth's "general position is reminiscent of Europe". However I think it would be fairer to say, given Tolkien's own statement, that the general position of the main scene of action is reminiscent of Europe (and also that the climate and ecology thereof is also reminiscent of Europe). However this is an important article, and the introduction is its key, so I'd be interested in comments and suggestions. Jungleboy63 ( talk) 12:55, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 12:07, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
There are two section on maps (both within Geography). I propose to merge these. Any comments? Jungleboy63 ( talk) 01:57, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
Thanks Elphion; I hope the result is satisfactory. I now propose a new section 'Regional maps', so these can be referenced from other articles. I envisage it to be essentially a list of 6 dot-points, and to be positioned between 'Whole-world maps' and 'Cartography'. Does anyone have any comments? Regards, Jungleboy63 ( talk) 08:48, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
It was not written by Christopher Tolkien. What is setting it apart from other books by various authors like "The Annotated Hobbit"? Is it because it had Christopher's "blessing"? Is it because it contains previously unpublished drafts? Or is it just wrong to include it? I just wanted to bring some attention to this topic, in case it's a mistake, since it seems to me like the only "unofficial" book in that list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.131.180.211 ( talk) 12:19, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
I added in the Category:Fictional universes for this article, since it is clearly a Fictional universe. Other articles already identify it as that. List of kings of Gondor This is a list of kings of Gondor from the fictional universe of Middle-earth by J. R. R. Tolkien List of Middle-earth Dwarves This is a list of Dwarves from J. R. R. Tolkien 's fictional universe of Middle-earth etc. 31 articles total use the exact words "fictional universe of Middle-earth" [1] Dream Focus 14:25, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
It actually is't a universe. Middle-earth is just a region, or better, a continent, on planet called Arda (maybe Tolkien even mentioned the name of universe itself, not sure). Just a note, do whatever you think with it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.197.127.131 ( talk) 10:57, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
In my view the Great Plague deserves a home somewhere. It affected many peoples and lands, and so it's mentioned in a number of articles. The event devastated much of Middle-earth, so I wonder if its worth mentioning in the Middle-earth article, in the section History: the Third Age? In the meantime I've added a paragraph to the main article on the Third Age (in the article History of Arda).
Likewise I think the Long Winter and the Fell Winter deserve homes too.
What do others think? The redirect 'Great Plague (Middle-earth)' needs to be redirected from Gondor to its new home, but I have no idea how to do this. Regards, Jungleboy63 ( talk) 12:08, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
Is there any basis for the claim here that Middle-earth is a continent, not the entire world?-- Jack Upland ( talk) 07:49, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
J.R.R. Tolkien specifically used the term "middle-earth" to refer to the entire world. He explained this in several letters. It is an Old English/Norse name for the Earth. The idea that Middle-earth is a single continent is simply wrong. People have confused it with the continent Endor from the pre-cataclysmic world of the mythology. After Numenor was destroyed near the end of the Second Age the world was made round and inescapable. The Middle-earth of The Lord of the Rings is intended to be the global Earth, not a single continent. The article's opening paragraph is wrong. Michael Martinez ( talk) 06:24, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
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There is a discussion at Template talk:Middle-earth#Legendarium template to cover legendarium, LOTR template to cover LOTR on whether we should remove the overlap between these two templates. Editors are invited to contribute. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 11:45, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
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Back at the FARC in 2006, it was rightly noted that, among other things, the article was poorly cited, and the History section was "overlong". Fourteen years on, both remain true, a sad state for a former Featured Article. However, for each of the very long sections Geography, History, and Languages/Peoples (why are those run together into one section?!), there are in fact detailed subsidiary articles. Therefore, each of those sections should, instead of running close to WP:FORK, be succinct "summary style" texts, brief and well-cited, acting as overviews of the linked articles. That will make the whole article a lot shorter, and with any luck a good deal more readable. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 14:33, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
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Jontesta (
talk) 18:01, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
Hi, I want to add an important citation in this article. I noted my source but an administrator avoid me to improve the article. Can you help me ? Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Homford ( talk • contribs) 19:40, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
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I've started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Middle-earth#Top redirects on whether some of the characters whose names are currently redirected to other articles deserve articles of their own. Thoughts welcomed (over there, not here please). Chiswick Chap ( talk) 12:17, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
Looks like another good article for you Chiswick. I note that the lead image is copyrighted, but used under a claim that no free images exist. There are free images available on Commons, such as File:Terra di Mezzo.jpg and File:01 - Kort over hele Midgård (Tolkien) - på dansk.jpg, as such the current image shouldn't be used, and should be replaced with a free image. There may be other free images available that are not yet on Commons. It's a shame because the current image is attractive, but there may be a legal claim against Wikipedia for inappropriately using copyrighted material. SilkTork ( talk) 11:16, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
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Listing a batch of redirects that point here for topics not mentioned here to get some discussion about if these are better RFD'd or should be added to article(s) elsewhere
Nen Lalaith - one of the rivers of Beleriand. Don't remember this one off the top of my head; is it significant enough that it should be added to the Beleriand article?
Orocarni - mountain range mentioned in passing at Mordor, but I thought it was more in the Rhun area
Taeglin - mentioned in passing at The Children of Húrin and Túrin Turambar; is there a better target to point this to?
Everholt - mentioned at The Lord of the Rings Online: Helm's Deep, is that video game article going to be the best place to talk about this?
Serni - apparently a river of Gondor, but I don't remember this one. Is it related to Sernui, which was deleted last summer?
Hopefully we can figure out a way to handle these well. Ideally, we should be able to strike a balance between include so much detail that it bogs down the reader in minute details that belong on wikia, but also present a clear overall coverage that is useful to the reader. Hog Farm Talk 06:29, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
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Talk 15:09, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
Shouldn't the name be "Middle-Earth" or "Middle Earth"? I.e., as a proper name, both words should be capitalized. (I think that's how it is in the books. I can't find any of my editions of LotR to check that or the hyphen.) Zaslav ( talk) 21:14, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
An editor has just tried deleting this article's image map, so a word of explanation may be in order. The image, in this case a sketch map of Middle-earth, contains numerous named areas (such as The Shire, Mirkwood, and Moria) which are arranged or "mapped" (to rectangular patches of the image) in the image map template to link to those articles. In this way, the image map offers an immediate, visual, means of navigation to those parts of Middle-earth which have articles. This is a much larger function than just providing a thumbnail of a map at the top of an article to give a rough idea which area or place the article is about. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 15:55, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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The redirect
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reply here 04:47, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
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I do not see why we must have the section The world in the article. I think the section should be deleted / merged into other sections. It has not been changed much since it was created in July 2004 and therefore it does not fit to the concept of the rest of the article anymore. It seems to deal with two different topics which do not really fit to the title:
The first paragraph of the section describes the relation of the geography of Middle-earth to that of today's world, which would rather belong into the section geography. Anyhow I think the relation is presented wrongly. The article says that "Gondor might lie in the Mediterranean Italy and Greece" whereas the article Arda states that Tolkien said Minas Tirith corresponded to Vienna (In the map used in this article the distance between the Shire and Minas Tirith is approximately 900 miles, which equals the distance between England and Vienna)
The other three paragraphs deal with the writings of Tolkien. I think this part should be put into the section Books which lacks of prose text anyway.
I would like to delete the first pargraph and merge the rest into the section Books -- Galadh 07:33, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
The Middle-Earth version of Risk is out, and there is also a card game version that could be added under adaptations section. PeregrineV 20:07, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
This article's featured status is being reviewed. See link at top of page, reproduced here: Wikipedia:Featured_article_review/Middle-earth. Carcharoth 09:09, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I am now in the process of adding references to this article. Please bear with me for the next few hours as I tidy up after myself. Carcharoth 12:53, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I removed a link to the Ardalambion website from the external links of this article because such a link is more appropriate at Languages of Arda (to which Languages of Middle-earth redirects), which is linked from the languages section of this article. Carcharoth 18:01, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
OK. How does this sound for the opening paragraph?
I think that gets across the idea that the term Middle-earth existed before Tolkien, and that Tolkien was using it in a very specific sense, that of the mythological and classical worldview of the known world. Carcharoth 00:48, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Ive deleted one of the links because it did not lead to what it was supposed to. le Dan 01:15, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
The Morwen Steelsheen article lacks any references and seems useless to stand on its own. As far as I know the character only exists in relation to the subject of this article and therefore should only be piece of it. I propose a merge. Alan.ca 12:46, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure if it's relevant, but I know Joseph Jacobs uses "Middle Earth" in Childe Rowland in his 1890 English Fairy Tales.-- Pharos 18:04, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
From reading the section "animals also appear, such as the Eagles, Huan the Great Hound from Valinor, the Balrog and the wolf-like Wargs. The Eagles were created by Ilúvatar along with the Ents, and the Balrogs were bred by Morgoth, but in general these animals' origins and nature are unclear. Some of them might have been Maiar in animal form, or perhaps even the offspring of Maiar and normal animals. The giant spiders such as Shelob were descended from normal spiders and Ungoliant, who is possibly an Ainu."
Balrogs were not bred by Morgoth, they were just corrupted by him early on.
It it mentioned in canon that the 'giant spiders' were only descended from Ungoliant and not from 'normal spiders'.
le Dan ( talk) 15:49, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
There are a HUGE number of inaccuracies in the article. The opening sentence, claiming that most of Tolkien's stories are set in Middle-earth, is completely wrong. Unfortunately, the entire Middle-earth section has been reworked extensively under the influence of one of the great manglers of Tolkien's legendarium, Conrad Dunkerson (now a Wikipedia admin), and I gave up trying to fix the problems he introduced years ago. When he attributed David Day's "ages of the sun" expression to me and people believed his claim that it was my own "original research", I knew there was no point in continuing the debate. This whole series of articles violates Wikipedia's "original research" principle in numerous ways.
THE BOOK OF LOST TALES is not set in Middle-earth, for example, but is rather based in a fictional prehistoric England. There was no conception of "Middle-earth" or anything like it when Tolkien wrote THE BOOK OF LOST TALES. These articles, however, misrepresent Tolkien's work as if it were a continuous stream of evolutionary developments rather than successive starts and restarts that he later wove together retroactively in concept.
Other examples of inaccuracies include: equating Arda with the Earth (Tolkien equated Arda with the Solar System); Endor is the Elvish for "Middle-earth" (actually, it means only "middle land"); Nargothrond was only a fortress (in fact, it was the capitol city of Finrod's kingdom); Halflings were only half the size of Men (Tolkien associated the meaning more specifically with the height of Numenorean or Dunedain men). I'
The article is also incomplete in its adaptations section. Although I would not recommend any attempt to exhaustively list stage play productions, there have been many -- some for commercial projects and most for school projects. The "Other Works" section fails to mention the implied references to Middle-earth (or elements that were incorporated into Middle-earth) in Tolkien's other books (such as Roverandom and Smith of Wootton Major). Michael Martinez ( talk) 18:55, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
The very first Middle-earth MU* game was in fact Middle-Earth MUD (not the reincarnation from 2003, but the MUD that was server-based) from approximately 1990-1992. I played it while I was in college until it shut down, and I added a newsgroup reference that mentions it- back then, newsgroups and usergroups were really all we had, and it is the best available documentation to be found for the period of pre-internet 'online' gaming. Monsieurdl mon talk- mon contribs 16:39, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Rohan and Gondor are recognisably states; but how would the other "geographically defined entities" be defined? The Shire and Breeland are a communities - defined be their various inhabitants and would be recognised as such by outsiders: but what would be appropriate terms for them, Rivendell and other communities? Jackiespeel ( talk) 17:52, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure that one can classify either as a true nation-state... it would be nice if someone had additional information about the political geography of Middle-earth, be it from Tolkien or otherwise. Blackhawk003 ( talk) 05:17, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Shouldn't this page have more information on notable references (Middle Earth in Other Works) and a section on notable illustrators, concept albums (notable music), and the like? 216.15.63.67 ( talk) 23:46, 25 September 2009 (UTC) BER
I always believed that the world was called Middle-Earth. Here though there seems to be the following possibilites,
Which is it? ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! ( talk) 06:18, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
This paragraph about Germanic mythology does not have any sources connecting it to Tolkien's use of the term "Middle-earth". Without those sources, it's a synthesis and can't be used in this article. I moved it here for comment rather than just deleting it, because it's interesting and well-written.
In ancient Germanic mythology, the world of Men is known by several names, such as Midgard, Middenheim, Manaheim, and Middengeard, and is located in the centre of the universe; while Bifröst, the rainbow bridge, extended from Middle-earth to Asgard, the land of the gods. Beneath Middle-earth lay Hel, the land of the Dead. The universe as a whole was believed to consist of nine physical "worlds" joined together. The precise arrangement of these worlds is uncertain. According to one view, seven worlds lay across an encircling sea: The lands of Elves ( Alfheim), Dwarves ( Niðavellir), Gods ( Asgard and Vanaheim), and Giants ( Jotunheim and Muspelheim). Other Norse scholars place these seven worlds in the sky, in the branches of Yggdrasil the "World Ash Tree" (possibly the inspiration for the Two Trees of Valinor).
If anyone has sources for relating this to Tolkien's Middle-earth, please provide them. Thanks. -- Jack-A-Roe ( talk) 09:03, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Its a good interview made in Januarary 1971 and worthy of being cited. But I must point out a few things, Tolkien wasn't necessarily consistent with his comments. He made similar claims as to the world being a kind of secondary imagination in several letters as early as 1944 (although this is more a nod to some of his prototype ideas most likely), even. During that time he was also writing letters stating that his world was earth, and/or took place in distant past. He even states in that interview that his books take place in "our world" (although he is unclear about the "timing" issue, instead bringing up one of his alternative imagination comments). BTW, the idea of the stories taking place on earth in the distant past, is even stated in the Appendices D Calenders in LOTR itself.
However, its clear he hadn't give up the Middle-earth is earth, and in a couple of later letters, dated July 1971, and one in "Autumn 1971", he mentions the idea of his books taking place in an distant epoch of Earth's past again.
What does this mean? Well only Tolkien believed whatever he believed. He may have had two distinct yet overlapping interpretations of the world. The most commonly repeated comment however, was that it's supposed to take place in "our world" (his words not mine) of Earth. It's a good example why one should avoid reading too much into what he said in his interviews... and rather look at culmination of everything he had ever said :p... 137.222.231.108 ( talk) 15:35, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
following up on a comment by Tony, copied here from Wikipedia:Featured_article_review/Middle-earth
I've edited the opening thus, ahem ...
WAS: Middle-earth is a term used by the author J. R. R. Tolkien to refer to the geographical setting of many of the tales of his legendarium,....
IS: Middle-earth is the geographical setting of many of the tales of J. R. R. Tolkien's legendarium,....
- Tony 02:53, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
"Oh yes, they're the same word. Most people have made this mistake of thinking Middle-earth is a particular kind of earth or is another planet of the science fiction sort but it's just an old fashioned word for this world we live in, as imagined surrounded by the Ocean." However, he continued to make references to it being "
Chad.burrus edited the first instance of "word" to "world", which does make slightly more sense. It's been reverted now, but I'm curious if anyone actually knows which one it is, and if it is the former, in what context is it used? -- Lolinder ( talk) 02:13, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
-- Chatatea ( talk) 00:09, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
The article mentions there being 2 roleplaying games. There are now three. The One Ring has just been released: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubicle_7#The_One_Ring:_The_Lord_of_the_Rings_Roleplaying_Game — Preceding unsigned comment added by Voidstate ( talk • contribs) 15:37, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
Quote: "A prequel trilogy is currently in production in New Zealand under the direction of Peter Jackson. The three films are scheduled for release in December 2012, 2013, and Summer 2014." - I get the feeling the person who wrote this may be an American. Who's summer are we talking about? December 2014? There are two summers in a year. 121.73.7.84 ( talk) 10:21, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
I don't really want to edit stuff, as I am not sure of how to do it properly. Regardless, I would like to point out that in his work "The Worm Ouroboros" Eddinson use the expression middle-earth 4 times. Here they are:
Chap IV: Conjuring in the Iron Tower "Therewith came forth that offspring of perdition from its hole, strutting erect on its two legs that were the legs of a cock; and a cock’s head it had, with rosy comb and wattles, but the face of it like no fowl’s face of middle-earth but rather a gorgon’s out of Hell."
Chap XIV. THE LAKE OF RAVARY "At length when winter was gone in middle earth, and the spring far spent, back came that last little martlet on weary wing she they had long given up for lost."
Chap XXVIII. ZORA RACH NAM PSARRION "And that was a note not like a bird’s of middle earth, but a note to charm down spirits out of the air, or to witch the imperishable senses of the Gods when they would hold communion with holy Night and make her perfect, and all her lamps and voices perfect in their eyes."
"What man of middle-earth is this that troubleth our quiet? Make an end! Call up the basilisks."
I hope it helps. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.15.199.131 ( talk) 01:53, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Concern was raised at Wikipedia:Featured article review/Middle-earth about the images used in this article. I've removed two speculative maps (probably based on descriptions in the texts, or on the early maps that were published in HoME): Image:Aman Valinor.jpg and Image:arda.png. I then put the three remaining 'main' maps in a gallery section of a "Maps" section. This section is intended to have discussion about the maps, and hopefully provide "fair use" justification for using these map images in the article, or even scans of the maps from the books. If a detailed enough discussion arose, the other two images above could be added back in.
Do people think this will this alleviate the concerns about image use in this article? Carcharoth 02:16, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
The only thing I can contribute about the images, is that the huge SVG file absolutely brings my computer to a crawl. SVG and vector formats have obvious advantages, but the rendering power required for that image kills any scalability benefit. (I'm running a P4 with 1 GB RAM, for reference, no performance problems.)
There is still no map of Middle-earth in Commons. What can be done? Is it OK, if someone paint a map according to the map in Hobbit, Atlas of Middle-Earth and other books and put it in Commons under cc licence? ( Wajstojfl ( talk) 07:05, 15 May 2017 (UTC))
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See http://peterbird.name/pictures/Middle-Earth.jpg (the map) and http://peterbird.name/ homepage plus/or http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2007/06/03/ map plus external comment
There is a populated place in Maryland, USA called Middle Earth. I'm wondering how that came about. -- Dtkinzer ( talk) 02:44, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Is there a reference for Tolkien's derivation of the term from the Middle English middel-erde, rather than his merely using a direct translation of the Old English middangeard?
It seems particularly strange to insist on the Norse-derived "erde", when English has always had "earth" (ending in a dental fricative): "eorð" in Old English, and the modern form at least since Chaucer. -- Saforrest 04:12, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
He did use middangeard but apparently "Middle-earth" strictly derives from a different word. From the Midgard article:
The name middangeard occurs half a dozen times in the Anglo-Saxon epic poem Beowulf, and is the same word as Midgard in Old Norse. The term is equivalent in meaning to the Greek term Oikoumene, as referring to the known and inhabited world.
The concept of Midgard occurs many times in Middle English, The association with earth (OE eorðe) in Middle English middellærd, middelerde is by popular etymology; the continuation of geard "enclosure" is yard. An early example of this transformation is from the Ormulum:
- þatt ure Drihhtin wollde / ben borenn i þiss middellærd
- that our Lord wanted / be born in this middle-earth.
The usage of "Middle-earth" as a name for a setting was popularized by Old English scholar J. R. R. Tolkien in his The Lord of the Rings and other fantasy works; he was originally inspired by the references to middangeard and Éarendel in the Old English poem Crist.
So if there was a confusion of words, Tolkien may have not realized it. Also see Talk:Midgard. (I only learned about this myself through here). Uthanc 00:53, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Why no mention at all that Mediterreanean means Middle Earth? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.223.204.45 ( talk) 18:58, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
The introduction refers to Middle-earth as the "central continent of Earth", which I consider correct. However the intro also refers to Middle-earth as "the north continent". Tolkien himself, in his Prologue to The Lord of the Rings, indicated an equivalence to the Old World: "the regions in which Hobbits then lived were doubtless the same as ... the North-West of the Old World". Accordingly I think this equivalence (to the Old World) should be noted in the intro.
The intro goes on to state that Middle-earth's "general position is reminiscent of Europe". However I think it would be fairer to say, given Tolkien's own statement, that the general position of the main scene of action is reminiscent of Europe (and also that the climate and ecology thereof is also reminiscent of Europe). However this is an important article, and the introduction is its key, so I'd be interested in comments and suggestions. Jungleboy63 ( talk) 12:55, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
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There are two section on maps (both within Geography). I propose to merge these. Any comments? Jungleboy63 ( talk) 01:57, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
Thanks Elphion; I hope the result is satisfactory. I now propose a new section 'Regional maps', so these can be referenced from other articles. I envisage it to be essentially a list of 6 dot-points, and to be positioned between 'Whole-world maps' and 'Cartography'. Does anyone have any comments? Regards, Jungleboy63 ( talk) 08:48, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
It was not written by Christopher Tolkien. What is setting it apart from other books by various authors like "The Annotated Hobbit"? Is it because it had Christopher's "blessing"? Is it because it contains previously unpublished drafts? Or is it just wrong to include it? I just wanted to bring some attention to this topic, in case it's a mistake, since it seems to me like the only "unofficial" book in that list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.131.180.211 ( talk) 12:19, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
I added in the Category:Fictional universes for this article, since it is clearly a Fictional universe. Other articles already identify it as that. List of kings of Gondor This is a list of kings of Gondor from the fictional universe of Middle-earth by J. R. R. Tolkien List of Middle-earth Dwarves This is a list of Dwarves from J. R. R. Tolkien 's fictional universe of Middle-earth etc. 31 articles total use the exact words "fictional universe of Middle-earth" [1] Dream Focus 14:25, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
It actually is't a universe. Middle-earth is just a region, or better, a continent, on planet called Arda (maybe Tolkien even mentioned the name of universe itself, not sure). Just a note, do whatever you think with it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.197.127.131 ( talk) 10:57, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
In my view the Great Plague deserves a home somewhere. It affected many peoples and lands, and so it's mentioned in a number of articles. The event devastated much of Middle-earth, so I wonder if its worth mentioning in the Middle-earth article, in the section History: the Third Age? In the meantime I've added a paragraph to the main article on the Third Age (in the article History of Arda).
Likewise I think the Long Winter and the Fell Winter deserve homes too.
What do others think? The redirect 'Great Plague (Middle-earth)' needs to be redirected from Gondor to its new home, but I have no idea how to do this. Regards, Jungleboy63 ( talk) 12:08, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
Is there any basis for the claim here that Middle-earth is a continent, not the entire world?-- Jack Upland ( talk) 07:49, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
J.R.R. Tolkien specifically used the term "middle-earth" to refer to the entire world. He explained this in several letters. It is an Old English/Norse name for the Earth. The idea that Middle-earth is a single continent is simply wrong. People have confused it with the continent Endor from the pre-cataclysmic world of the mythology. After Numenor was destroyed near the end of the Second Age the world was made round and inescapable. The Middle-earth of The Lord of the Rings is intended to be the global Earth, not a single continent. The article's opening paragraph is wrong. Michael Martinez ( talk) 06:24, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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There is a discussion at Template talk:Middle-earth#Legendarium template to cover legendarium, LOTR template to cover LOTR on whether we should remove the overlap between these two templates. Editors are invited to contribute. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 11:45, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
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Back at the FARC in 2006, it was rightly noted that, among other things, the article was poorly cited, and the History section was "overlong". Fourteen years on, both remain true, a sad state for a former Featured Article. However, for each of the very long sections Geography, History, and Languages/Peoples (why are those run together into one section?!), there are in fact detailed subsidiary articles. Therefore, each of those sections should, instead of running close to WP:FORK, be succinct "summary style" texts, brief and well-cited, acting as overviews of the linked articles. That will make the whole article a lot shorter, and with any luck a good deal more readable. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 14:33, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
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Hi, I want to add an important citation in this article. I noted my source but an administrator avoid me to improve the article. Can you help me ? Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Homford ( talk • contribs) 19:40, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
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I've started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Middle-earth#Top redirects on whether some of the characters whose names are currently redirected to other articles deserve articles of their own. Thoughts welcomed (over there, not here please). Chiswick Chap ( talk) 12:17, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
Looks like another good article for you Chiswick. I note that the lead image is copyrighted, but used under a claim that no free images exist. There are free images available on Commons, such as File:Terra di Mezzo.jpg and File:01 - Kort over hele Midgård (Tolkien) - på dansk.jpg, as such the current image shouldn't be used, and should be replaced with a free image. There may be other free images available that are not yet on Commons. It's a shame because the current image is attractive, but there may be a legal claim against Wikipedia for inappropriately using copyrighted material. SilkTork ( talk) 11:16, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
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Listing a batch of redirects that point here for topics not mentioned here to get some discussion about if these are better RFD'd or should be added to article(s) elsewhere
Nen Lalaith - one of the rivers of Beleriand. Don't remember this one off the top of my head; is it significant enough that it should be added to the Beleriand article?
Orocarni - mountain range mentioned in passing at Mordor, but I thought it was more in the Rhun area
Taeglin - mentioned in passing at The Children of Húrin and Túrin Turambar; is there a better target to point this to?
Everholt - mentioned at The Lord of the Rings Online: Helm's Deep, is that video game article going to be the best place to talk about this?
Serni - apparently a river of Gondor, but I don't remember this one. Is it related to Sernui, which was deleted last summer?
Hopefully we can figure out a way to handle these well. Ideally, we should be able to strike a balance between include so much detail that it bogs down the reader in minute details that belong on wikia, but also present a clear overall coverage that is useful to the reader. Hog Farm Talk 06:29, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
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Shouldn't the name be "Middle-Earth" or "Middle Earth"? I.e., as a proper name, both words should be capitalized. (I think that's how it is in the books. I can't find any of my editions of LotR to check that or the hyphen.) Zaslav ( talk) 21:14, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
An editor has just tried deleting this article's image map, so a word of explanation may be in order. The image, in this case a sketch map of Middle-earth, contains numerous named areas (such as The Shire, Mirkwood, and Moria) which are arranged or "mapped" (to rectangular patches of the image) in the image map template to link to those articles. In this way, the image map offers an immediate, visual, means of navigation to those parts of Middle-earth which have articles. This is a much larger function than just providing a thumbnail of a map at the top of an article to give a rough idea which area or place the article is about. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 15:55, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
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Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 04:47, 18 June 2023 (UTC)