This template was considered for deletion on 2020 March 8. The result of the discussion was "merge/delete". |
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this template seems a bit unwieldy. I cut out the explicit listing of all HoME volumes. It cannot be the aim of this template to give a full bibliography (also, why was Bilbo's Song listed? See J. R. R. Tolkien for a full listing of works. dab 15:39, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I won't insist on removing Bilbo's Last Song, but, heck, it's a single short poem. You want it on this overview simply because it was first published on its own, on a poster? It's a part of The Road goes ever on, now. dab 20:24, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I've created another version of Template:middle-earth which is designed to go down the right-hand side of an article, at the top. It is at User:Time3000/Sandbox. I'm conscious that putting it on the article pages could be controversial (especially in such a high-visibility place in a relatively high-visibility article) so any comments or suggestions for improvement are welcome. This is copied from Talk:The Lord of the Rings in the Navboxes/Templates section -- please see there for context. Time3000 15:51, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I removed Category:Novel series navigational boxes, but it was reverted by Kevinalewis. My reasoning was The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings are the only novels in the legendarium. Using "novel series " for LOTR itself is wrong since the volumes aren't stand-alone novels. (And even then, JRRT didn't like "novel", preferring "heroic romance"...) The Silmarillion is a history, Unfinished Tales and The History of Middle-earth are... not novels at any rate, and the rest now published are poems or collections of poems. So what's appropriate? Uthanc 14:05, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I think that it would be a good idea to add the three volumes of the Lord of the Rings in brackets after The Lord of the Rings. So it would look like this The Lord of the Rings ( The Fellowship of the Ring · The Two Towers · The Return of the King) Darth Newdar ( talk) 14:10, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
"The Tale of Beren and Luthien" has been added in the template, but for some reason, it doesn't appear on the template of the "Middle-earth" page. Unfortunately I don't know how to fix it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:587:8044:4000:559E:7250:CDD8:A564 ( talk) 22:29, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
The article on Tolkien's legendarium states that it is "the body of J. R. R. Tolkien's mythopoeic writing that forms the background to his The Lord of the Rings".
If that be our definition, and it seems a good one, then we should not be including articles about items, characters, and events that occur entirely or very largely within The Lord of the Rings. Perhaps several of the recent additions therefore do not belong.
By the same token, articles which belong in the LOTR framework should generally not also be in the Middle-earth Legendarium template, unless they are also significantly written about over there, i.e. in a book such as Morgoth's Ring or Unfinished Tales. -- Chiswick Chap ( talk) 15:29, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
By chance I came across the following very old comment, which I copy now from Talk:Battle of Helm's Deep, on this theme, noting the ambiguity and alternative possible titles: Chiswick Chap ( talk) 10:19, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
We all know that Middle-earth is a continent, but the name is also commonly used for Tolkien's universe. While he himself didn't use it, it is commonly recognizable - and "fictional character from the fictional continent..." doesn't sound right. If we used "Arda" or "Ea", many people might not get it.
Ausir 07:23, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Well I certainly agree that merging the templates into one 'universal' blob would be disastrous. The overlap remains troubling, especially as you have recently added the template to many LOTR articles where the LOTR template provides all that's needed. Perhaps the answer lies there for now. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 04:28, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
There is a clear problem with the needless overlap between these two templates. The Legendarium is clearly defined in its article as consisting of the books that form the background to the Lord of the Rings. The Lord of the Rings template covers that book, and the places and characters and events within it, in the Third Age of Middle-earth. I suggest that we go back to what always used to be the case, and logically should be, that the Legendarium template covers the books and events in the Legendarium. It will be fine for the templates to note the other's existence in a 'Related' section, but it is quite wrong for the Legendarium to go beyond its brief by going into the action and details of Lord of the Rings. I propose we remove those details. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 21:01, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
I suggest renaming that field to Tolkien studies. Also how about we add dates of publications to the works there and order them by date? Would probably be more useful then ordering them by alphabet, which still beats the current random listing. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:25, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Template:Ainur. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 June 18#Template:Ainur until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Hog Farm ( talk) 03:00, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
The Silmarillion is of course posthumous, but it's evidently different in kind from The History of The Hobbit and The History of Middle-earth in being "written by JRR Tolkien" whereas the Histories consist in large part of analysis (by Christopher Tolkien); further, they aren't novels in themselves, but (analyses of) drafts of (parts of) novels. As such they might make more sense in 'Literary criticism' but it feels to me as if there's an intermediate category which we could call something like 'History of composition'.
The remaining posthumous works could, it seems to me, simply go into 'Works' --- after all, why is the date of publication so important --- or if people prefer, we could have 'Posthumous' as a subgroup of 'Works'. Either way, works like Unfinished Tales and The Silmarillion don't belong with the 'History' bucketful. In short, I think the current group3 is a muddle which needs resolving. If nobody objects I suggest we give it a try. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 09:20, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
Given Christopher Tolkien's many contributions to the Legendarium - as map artist, shaper and completer of the published Silmarillion, and compiler and editor of HoME - it seems unfair to omit him from this template. I would be inclined to add him in the top bar as a major contributor; alternatively he could go into the 'History of composition' section. To relegate him to 'Artists' would be to understate his influence. -- Verbarson talk edits 17:16, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
This template was considered for deletion on 2020 March 8. The result of the discussion was "merge/delete". |
Middle-earth Template‑class | ||||||||||
|
Novels Template‑class | |||||||
|
this template seems a bit unwieldy. I cut out the explicit listing of all HoME volumes. It cannot be the aim of this template to give a full bibliography (also, why was Bilbo's Song listed? See J. R. R. Tolkien for a full listing of works. dab 15:39, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I won't insist on removing Bilbo's Last Song, but, heck, it's a single short poem. You want it on this overview simply because it was first published on its own, on a poster? It's a part of The Road goes ever on, now. dab 20:24, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I've created another version of Template:middle-earth which is designed to go down the right-hand side of an article, at the top. It is at User:Time3000/Sandbox. I'm conscious that putting it on the article pages could be controversial (especially in such a high-visibility place in a relatively high-visibility article) so any comments or suggestions for improvement are welcome. This is copied from Talk:The Lord of the Rings in the Navboxes/Templates section -- please see there for context. Time3000 15:51, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I removed Category:Novel series navigational boxes, but it was reverted by Kevinalewis. My reasoning was The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings are the only novels in the legendarium. Using "novel series " for LOTR itself is wrong since the volumes aren't stand-alone novels. (And even then, JRRT didn't like "novel", preferring "heroic romance"...) The Silmarillion is a history, Unfinished Tales and The History of Middle-earth are... not novels at any rate, and the rest now published are poems or collections of poems. So what's appropriate? Uthanc 14:05, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I think that it would be a good idea to add the three volumes of the Lord of the Rings in brackets after The Lord of the Rings. So it would look like this The Lord of the Rings ( The Fellowship of the Ring · The Two Towers · The Return of the King) Darth Newdar ( talk) 14:10, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
"The Tale of Beren and Luthien" has been added in the template, but for some reason, it doesn't appear on the template of the "Middle-earth" page. Unfortunately I don't know how to fix it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:587:8044:4000:559E:7250:CDD8:A564 ( talk) 22:29, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
The article on Tolkien's legendarium states that it is "the body of J. R. R. Tolkien's mythopoeic writing that forms the background to his The Lord of the Rings".
If that be our definition, and it seems a good one, then we should not be including articles about items, characters, and events that occur entirely or very largely within The Lord of the Rings. Perhaps several of the recent additions therefore do not belong.
By the same token, articles which belong in the LOTR framework should generally not also be in the Middle-earth Legendarium template, unless they are also significantly written about over there, i.e. in a book such as Morgoth's Ring or Unfinished Tales. -- Chiswick Chap ( talk) 15:29, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
By chance I came across the following very old comment, which I copy now from Talk:Battle of Helm's Deep, on this theme, noting the ambiguity and alternative possible titles: Chiswick Chap ( talk) 10:19, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
We all know that Middle-earth is a continent, but the name is also commonly used for Tolkien's universe. While he himself didn't use it, it is commonly recognizable - and "fictional character from the fictional continent..." doesn't sound right. If we used "Arda" or "Ea", many people might not get it.
Ausir 07:23, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Well I certainly agree that merging the templates into one 'universal' blob would be disastrous. The overlap remains troubling, especially as you have recently added the template to many LOTR articles where the LOTR template provides all that's needed. Perhaps the answer lies there for now. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 04:28, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
There is a clear problem with the needless overlap between these two templates. The Legendarium is clearly defined in its article as consisting of the books that form the background to the Lord of the Rings. The Lord of the Rings template covers that book, and the places and characters and events within it, in the Third Age of Middle-earth. I suggest that we go back to what always used to be the case, and logically should be, that the Legendarium template covers the books and events in the Legendarium. It will be fine for the templates to note the other's existence in a 'Related' section, but it is quite wrong for the Legendarium to go beyond its brief by going into the action and details of Lord of the Rings. I propose we remove those details. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 21:01, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
I suggest renaming that field to Tolkien studies. Also how about we add dates of publications to the works there and order them by date? Would probably be more useful then ordering them by alphabet, which still beats the current random listing. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:25, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Template:Ainur. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 June 18#Template:Ainur until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Hog Farm ( talk) 03:00, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
The Silmarillion is of course posthumous, but it's evidently different in kind from The History of The Hobbit and The History of Middle-earth in being "written by JRR Tolkien" whereas the Histories consist in large part of analysis (by Christopher Tolkien); further, they aren't novels in themselves, but (analyses of) drafts of (parts of) novels. As such they might make more sense in 'Literary criticism' but it feels to me as if there's an intermediate category which we could call something like 'History of composition'.
The remaining posthumous works could, it seems to me, simply go into 'Works' --- after all, why is the date of publication so important --- or if people prefer, we could have 'Posthumous' as a subgroup of 'Works'. Either way, works like Unfinished Tales and The Silmarillion don't belong with the 'History' bucketful. In short, I think the current group3 is a muddle which needs resolving. If nobody objects I suggest we give it a try. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 09:20, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
Given Christopher Tolkien's many contributions to the Legendarium - as map artist, shaper and completer of the published Silmarillion, and compiler and editor of HoME - it seems unfair to omit him from this template. I would be inclined to add him in the top bar as a major contributor; alternatively he could go into the 'History of composition' section. To relegate him to 'Artists' would be to understate his influence. -- Verbarson talk edits 17:16, 6 February 2023 (UTC)