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I moved the name to internationally reckognised name. The previous version was simply German word for Castle of the Order followed by German version of the city's name. The internationally reckognised name in English is Malbork Castle. -- Molobo 16:03, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Britannica only has as short article on the town of Malbork Poland German Marienburg, and just speaks of "the fortress" there, plus of the "vast red-brick castle of Malbork (Marienburg)" in an article on arts. The "article"
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/359863/Malbork-castle is none, it just lists search results within EB, as does
http://www.britannica.com/bps/fulltext?query=Marienburg. Hardly helpful what EB has to offer there. So, what is the most frequently used name on Google Book and Scholar?
Some examples for recent use in reliable sources, each author being an expert on the field:
Those books tell about the history of the castle (first one about an event from 1902, second one about the whole history of the Teutonic Order, third one about an event from 1309). In those days the castle was known under its German name so that name was used in the books. We are discussing here about what schould be the name of an article about a still existing castle in the 21th century. 77.253.66.1 ( talk) 01:20, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
In the last book we have Castle of Malbork (Marienburg)
While the post-1945 location is correctly described as Malbork, Poland, the castle itself is mostly described as "the Marienburg", or "the castle at Malbork" (as the UNESCO did). I doubt any respectable author insists that the castle itself is called Malbork, or had been called so in the past, except by Poles. And Google's OCR engine can't be blamed for ignoring diacritics here.
Knepflerle, you are using a name that suggests a South West German (or Alsatian, Swiss) background, how come the opinions you voice almost always seem to oppose anything remotely " Szwab"? -- Matthead Discuß 16:14, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
-- IIIraute ( talk) 17:24, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
The following comment was copied from Malbork as that article focuses on the city, to be merged here. -- Matthead 02:51, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
The town was built around the fortress Ordensburg Marienburg, founded in 1274 on the right bank of the river Nogat by the Teutonic Knights. Both the castle and the town of Marienburg were named for their patron saint, the Virgin Mary.
This fortified castle became the seat of the Teutonic Order and Europe's largest Gothic fortress. The river and flat terrain allowed easy access for barges a hundred kilometers from the sea. During Prussia's government by the Teutonic Knights, they collected tolls on river traffic and imposed a monopoly of the amber trade. The city later became a member of the Hanseatic League, and many Hanse meetings were held there. The castle successfully withstood a siege after the Battle of Grunwald under the guidance of Heinrich von Plauen the Elder. However, it was sold during the Thirteen Years' War in 1457 to Casimir IV, the king of Poland, by the Bohemian king's imperial soldiers in lieu of their pay. The city of Malbork under mayor Bartholomäus Blume resisted the Poles for three further years, until he was hanged. Since then, Malbork became one of the Polish royal residences until the partitions of Poland in 1772. In 1945 the castle was severely damaged as a result of fighting during World War II, but was reconstructed thereafter.
Ordensburg Marienburg is a classic example of a medieval fortress; it is the world’s largest brick castle and one of the most impressive of its kind in Europe. The castle and its museum are listed as UNESCO's World Heritage Sites. It is sometimes referred to as 'the largest heap of bricks north of the Alps'. Under continuous construction for nearly 230 years, Malbork is actually three castles nested in one another. The High, Middle and Low Castles are separated by additional dry moats and towers. It housed some 3,000 "brothers in arms". The Low Castle walls enclose 52 acres (210,000 m²), four times the area of Windsor Castle.
Looks liek the entire text fo the History section is copied verbatim from the castle website http://www.zamek.malbork.pl/en/historia/indexh.php (and follow links to expand each section). There's no indication that this text is any other than copyright, so I'm going to remove it from the article until someone can precis/paraphrase it. David Underdown 12:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Done (by Charlie D - 21:56 28 March 2007)
I don't see any source for this statement, although tour guides repeat it continously. UNESCO doesn't say that, and I don't understand why if it's true. Castello Sforzesco is listed in List of Brick Renaissance buildings and used to have 1000-3000 warriors in 16th century and 4000 under Napoleon (while the article say 3000 at Malbork) and covered an area of almost 27 hectares (compared to 21 for Malnork, according to the article). -- Nemo 12:05, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
It is maybe not the most scientific kind of research, but check out the following results on google.com (books): Malbork castle ~12,300; Marienburg ~818,000 results...... so almost 77 times more hits on Marienburg within the english language that were published!-- IIIraute ( talk) 05:18, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
— A. Kupicki ( talk) 08:05, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
-- IIIraute ( talk) 17:17, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
-- IIIraute ( talk) 19:42, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
-- IIIraute ( talk) 00:35, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
Undoing edit: 153.19.182.21, 14:22, 12 December 2011. See discussion above↑.-- IIIraute ( talk) 02:08, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
Please see: Gdansk-Vote-Notice ↑↑ -- IIIraute ( talk) 23:31, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
Could you change the German name "Ordensburg Marienburg" to "Marienburg" or "Die Marienburg" (to separate it from the German name of the town)? "Ordensburg Marienburg" sounds weird in German. Ordensburg is only an explanation what kind of castle it is, but it is not a part of the name. Apologize for my bad English. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.56.109.61 ( talk) 06:12, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
In this context "remove vandalism" as in this edit summary [13] is a personal attack as very clearly these edits are not vandalism.
Likewise, "article has been stable" or "restore original version" [14] are NOT legitimate reasons for making blind reverts. If we were to "restore original versions" we'd pretty much have to erase all of Wikipedia, back to 2002. Cut the BS. Don't try to use "restore original version" as an empty excuse for undoing legitimate improvements or engaging in POV pushing.
VolunteerMarek 01:25, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Sources: Jerzy Lukowski, W. H. Zawadzki, "A concise history of Poland", (2006) Rosamond McKitterick, Michael Jones "The New Cambridge Medieval History: c. 1300-c. 1415" (1995) Zsolt Hunyadi, József Laszlovszky; "The Crusades and the military orders", (2001) David Watkin, "A history of Western architecture", (2005) J. E. Kaufmann, H. W. Kaufmann, Robert M. Jurga, "The medieval fortress",(2004) Stephen Turnbull, Peter Dennis "Crusader Castles of the Teutonic Knights (1)", (2003) David Nicolle, Graham Turner, "Teutonic Knight: 1190-1561", (2007) Peter Harrison, "Castles of God: fortified religious buildings of the world", (2004) John H. Stubbs, World Monuments Fund (New York, N.Y.), "Time honored: a global view of architectural conservation", (2009) Karin Friedrich, "The Other Prussia: Royal Prussia, Poland and Liberty, 1569-1772", (2006) D. M. Field, D. M. Field, "The world's greatest architecture: past and present", (2002) Ion Grumeza, "The Roots of Balkanization: Eastern Europe C.E. 500-1500", (2010) James A. Michener, James A. Michener, "Poland", (1987) William Urban, "The Teutonic Knights: a military history", (2003) Tomasz Torbus, "Poland", (1999) Marshall Cavendish Corporation, Steven Maddocks, Dale Anderson, "Exploring the Middle Ages", (2006) Andrejs Plakans, "A Concise History of the Baltic States", (2011) Armin Tuulse, "Castles of the Western world", (2002)-- IIIraute ( talk) 02:13, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Looking quickly at the history, I see that IIIraute has a habit of making completely mindless and unjustifed reverts [18]. Obviously this castle is not a "military structure" - the designation "World Heritage Site" is much more appropriate. But IIIraute blindly reverted the change (with no edit summary). Why? Cuz the person that made the original edit had a Polish looking username? VolunteerMarek 03:39, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
I've been watching this exchange from the sidelines with great distress. Already since October 2011 – when IIIraute ( talk · contribs) showed up here for the first time – he's been pushing his POV very aggressively, mostly by interpreting sources rather than citing them. Why? Because English is not sufficient enough when it comes to Eastern territories once controlled by the imperial and Nazi Germany in present day Poland. English must be augmented with German; the castle is not a castle without Ordensburg, and so on. Marienburg, Marienburg, Marienburg... as if the place was still in Germany today. That's why his POV is so hard to accept. Poeticbent talk 04:28, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
I better leave this without further comment [22], [23]. -- IIIraute ( talk) 05:43, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Back on topic. The title of this article is "Malbork Castle". On Wikipedia, the first sentence of an article's lede introduces the subject and it does so by including the title of the article in bold. This is just standard practice. So the first sentence of the article should be "The Malbork Castle (Polish: zamek w Malborku; German: Ordensburg Marienburg) is the largest castle in the world by surface area, and the largest brick building in Europe." Not "The Castle of the Teutonic Order in Malbork..." since that is NOT the title of this article. Of course the UNESCO name can - and should be - mentioned in the article, but the first sentence needs to match up with the article title.
Note that this has NOTHING to do with Gdansk-Danzig vote and any raising of that (old, outdated, superseded) vote are just red herrings which do nothing but derail the discussion. VolunteerMarek 19:15, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Currently the article states that during the 13 Years War the castle was purchased from the Czech mercenaries by "Stibor de Poniec of Ostoja" - whoever that is (I could maybe find a Scibor of Ostoja, but the "de Poniec" is just weird - the wlink is just to the Wikipedia article on the clan Ostoja - which has it's own crazy problems). However, I think the castle was actually purchased by Andrzej Tęczyński (1461). The source at the end of the paragraph is completely irrelevant to that piece of information... or to any of the other information in this article. Volunteer Marek 02:54, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This page is affected by the
Gdańsk (Danzig) Vote. The following rules apply in the case of disputes:
The detailed vote results and the vote itself can be found on Talk:Gdansk/Vote. This vote has ended; please do not vote anymore. Comments and discussions can be added to Talk:Gdansk/Vote/discussion anytime. This template {{ Gdansk-Vote-Notice}} can be added on the talk page of affected articles if necessary. |
![]() | Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I moved the name to internationally reckognised name. The previous version was simply German word for Castle of the Order followed by German version of the city's name. The internationally reckognised name in English is Malbork Castle. -- Molobo 16:03, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Britannica only has as short article on the town of Malbork Poland German Marienburg, and just speaks of "the fortress" there, plus of the "vast red-brick castle of Malbork (Marienburg)" in an article on arts. The "article"
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/359863/Malbork-castle is none, it just lists search results within EB, as does
http://www.britannica.com/bps/fulltext?query=Marienburg. Hardly helpful what EB has to offer there. So, what is the most frequently used name on Google Book and Scholar?
Some examples for recent use in reliable sources, each author being an expert on the field:
Those books tell about the history of the castle (first one about an event from 1902, second one about the whole history of the Teutonic Order, third one about an event from 1309). In those days the castle was known under its German name so that name was used in the books. We are discussing here about what schould be the name of an article about a still existing castle in the 21th century. 77.253.66.1 ( talk) 01:20, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
In the last book we have Castle of Malbork (Marienburg)
While the post-1945 location is correctly described as Malbork, Poland, the castle itself is mostly described as "the Marienburg", or "the castle at Malbork" (as the UNESCO did). I doubt any respectable author insists that the castle itself is called Malbork, or had been called so in the past, except by Poles. And Google's OCR engine can't be blamed for ignoring diacritics here.
Knepflerle, you are using a name that suggests a South West German (or Alsatian, Swiss) background, how come the opinions you voice almost always seem to oppose anything remotely " Szwab"? -- Matthead Discuß 16:14, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
-- IIIraute ( talk) 17:24, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
The following comment was copied from Malbork as that article focuses on the city, to be merged here. -- Matthead 02:51, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
The town was built around the fortress Ordensburg Marienburg, founded in 1274 on the right bank of the river Nogat by the Teutonic Knights. Both the castle and the town of Marienburg were named for their patron saint, the Virgin Mary.
This fortified castle became the seat of the Teutonic Order and Europe's largest Gothic fortress. The river and flat terrain allowed easy access for barges a hundred kilometers from the sea. During Prussia's government by the Teutonic Knights, they collected tolls on river traffic and imposed a monopoly of the amber trade. The city later became a member of the Hanseatic League, and many Hanse meetings were held there. The castle successfully withstood a siege after the Battle of Grunwald under the guidance of Heinrich von Plauen the Elder. However, it was sold during the Thirteen Years' War in 1457 to Casimir IV, the king of Poland, by the Bohemian king's imperial soldiers in lieu of their pay. The city of Malbork under mayor Bartholomäus Blume resisted the Poles for three further years, until he was hanged. Since then, Malbork became one of the Polish royal residences until the partitions of Poland in 1772. In 1945 the castle was severely damaged as a result of fighting during World War II, but was reconstructed thereafter.
Ordensburg Marienburg is a classic example of a medieval fortress; it is the world’s largest brick castle and one of the most impressive of its kind in Europe. The castle and its museum are listed as UNESCO's World Heritage Sites. It is sometimes referred to as 'the largest heap of bricks north of the Alps'. Under continuous construction for nearly 230 years, Malbork is actually three castles nested in one another. The High, Middle and Low Castles are separated by additional dry moats and towers. It housed some 3,000 "brothers in arms". The Low Castle walls enclose 52 acres (210,000 m²), four times the area of Windsor Castle.
Looks liek the entire text fo the History section is copied verbatim from the castle website http://www.zamek.malbork.pl/en/historia/indexh.php (and follow links to expand each section). There's no indication that this text is any other than copyright, so I'm going to remove it from the article until someone can precis/paraphrase it. David Underdown 12:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Done (by Charlie D - 21:56 28 March 2007)
I don't see any source for this statement, although tour guides repeat it continously. UNESCO doesn't say that, and I don't understand why if it's true. Castello Sforzesco is listed in List of Brick Renaissance buildings and used to have 1000-3000 warriors in 16th century and 4000 under Napoleon (while the article say 3000 at Malbork) and covered an area of almost 27 hectares (compared to 21 for Malnork, according to the article). -- Nemo 12:05, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
It is maybe not the most scientific kind of research, but check out the following results on google.com (books): Malbork castle ~12,300; Marienburg ~818,000 results...... so almost 77 times more hits on Marienburg within the english language that were published!-- IIIraute ( talk) 05:18, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
— A. Kupicki ( talk) 08:05, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
-- IIIraute ( talk) 17:17, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
-- IIIraute ( talk) 19:42, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
-- IIIraute ( talk) 00:35, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
Undoing edit: 153.19.182.21, 14:22, 12 December 2011. See discussion above↑.-- IIIraute ( talk) 02:08, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
Please see: Gdansk-Vote-Notice ↑↑ -- IIIraute ( talk) 23:31, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
Could you change the German name "Ordensburg Marienburg" to "Marienburg" or "Die Marienburg" (to separate it from the German name of the town)? "Ordensburg Marienburg" sounds weird in German. Ordensburg is only an explanation what kind of castle it is, but it is not a part of the name. Apologize for my bad English. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.56.109.61 ( talk) 06:12, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
In this context "remove vandalism" as in this edit summary [13] is a personal attack as very clearly these edits are not vandalism.
Likewise, "article has been stable" or "restore original version" [14] are NOT legitimate reasons for making blind reverts. If we were to "restore original versions" we'd pretty much have to erase all of Wikipedia, back to 2002. Cut the BS. Don't try to use "restore original version" as an empty excuse for undoing legitimate improvements or engaging in POV pushing.
VolunteerMarek 01:25, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Sources: Jerzy Lukowski, W. H. Zawadzki, "A concise history of Poland", (2006) Rosamond McKitterick, Michael Jones "The New Cambridge Medieval History: c. 1300-c. 1415" (1995) Zsolt Hunyadi, József Laszlovszky; "The Crusades and the military orders", (2001) David Watkin, "A history of Western architecture", (2005) J. E. Kaufmann, H. W. Kaufmann, Robert M. Jurga, "The medieval fortress",(2004) Stephen Turnbull, Peter Dennis "Crusader Castles of the Teutonic Knights (1)", (2003) David Nicolle, Graham Turner, "Teutonic Knight: 1190-1561", (2007) Peter Harrison, "Castles of God: fortified religious buildings of the world", (2004) John H. Stubbs, World Monuments Fund (New York, N.Y.), "Time honored: a global view of architectural conservation", (2009) Karin Friedrich, "The Other Prussia: Royal Prussia, Poland and Liberty, 1569-1772", (2006) D. M. Field, D. M. Field, "The world's greatest architecture: past and present", (2002) Ion Grumeza, "The Roots of Balkanization: Eastern Europe C.E. 500-1500", (2010) James A. Michener, James A. Michener, "Poland", (1987) William Urban, "The Teutonic Knights: a military history", (2003) Tomasz Torbus, "Poland", (1999) Marshall Cavendish Corporation, Steven Maddocks, Dale Anderson, "Exploring the Middle Ages", (2006) Andrejs Plakans, "A Concise History of the Baltic States", (2011) Armin Tuulse, "Castles of the Western world", (2002)-- IIIraute ( talk) 02:13, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Looking quickly at the history, I see that IIIraute has a habit of making completely mindless and unjustifed reverts [18]. Obviously this castle is not a "military structure" - the designation "World Heritage Site" is much more appropriate. But IIIraute blindly reverted the change (with no edit summary). Why? Cuz the person that made the original edit had a Polish looking username? VolunteerMarek 03:39, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
I've been watching this exchange from the sidelines with great distress. Already since October 2011 – when IIIraute ( talk · contribs) showed up here for the first time – he's been pushing his POV very aggressively, mostly by interpreting sources rather than citing them. Why? Because English is not sufficient enough when it comes to Eastern territories once controlled by the imperial and Nazi Germany in present day Poland. English must be augmented with German; the castle is not a castle without Ordensburg, and so on. Marienburg, Marienburg, Marienburg... as if the place was still in Germany today. That's why his POV is so hard to accept. Poeticbent talk 04:28, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
I better leave this without further comment [22], [23]. -- IIIraute ( talk) 05:43, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Back on topic. The title of this article is "Malbork Castle". On Wikipedia, the first sentence of an article's lede introduces the subject and it does so by including the title of the article in bold. This is just standard practice. So the first sentence of the article should be "The Malbork Castle (Polish: zamek w Malborku; German: Ordensburg Marienburg) is the largest castle in the world by surface area, and the largest brick building in Europe." Not "The Castle of the Teutonic Order in Malbork..." since that is NOT the title of this article. Of course the UNESCO name can - and should be - mentioned in the article, but the first sentence needs to match up with the article title.
Note that this has NOTHING to do with Gdansk-Danzig vote and any raising of that (old, outdated, superseded) vote are just red herrings which do nothing but derail the discussion. VolunteerMarek 19:15, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Currently the article states that during the 13 Years War the castle was purchased from the Czech mercenaries by "Stibor de Poniec of Ostoja" - whoever that is (I could maybe find a Scibor of Ostoja, but the "de Poniec" is just weird - the wlink is just to the Wikipedia article on the clan Ostoja - which has it's own crazy problems). However, I think the castle was actually purchased by Andrzej Tęczyński (1461). The source at the end of the paragraph is completely irrelevant to that piece of information... or to any of the other information in this article. Volunteer Marek 02:54, 21 February 2013 (UTC)