![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Should this article be renamed to Japanese occupation of the Dutch East Indies since Indonesia did not exist before 1945? Arsonal ( talk) 16:32, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Do not dare claim some minimally educated white with a very blatant program of altering Indonesian history to suit their own PC agenda and Australian-US-UK scholars who are barely literate in Indoneisan are some how suprerior and more authorative than Indonesian mainstream scholarship. I am sorry if you feel Indonesian history is too racist or controversial for YOU- BUT HERE'S A NASTY FACT- INDONESIAN HISTORY IS RACIST. Here are some unpleasant facts for you sok tahu bule mincing about with your infatuation with PC and multi-culturalism:
To claim Chinese had any positive involvement in Perjuangan constitutes original research and it utterly refuted by all Indonesian scholarship- which as being the narrative of its' own native history is unqueastionably the authorative version- exctly as Australin history scholarhsip is the authorative narrative of Austrlian history, British scholarship to British history and so forth.
Unless you are prepared to write Indonesian history in agreement with the dominant Indonesian academic perspective - which excludes all Gramedia/Gunung Agung/Tokoh Indonesia belated "revelations" about heroic, selfless Chinese (which should be immediately dismissed as typical Chinese self-aggrandisement and ingratiation to the dominant power) to suit your perceptions Indonesian self determination was a multi-cultural love-fest then you thoroughly need re-adjustment and a dose of reality. I am more than happy to lend a valet with English skills to tour you around all the national museums, the national archives etc to prove my point.
You will respect MY edits on my own nations history as more authoritative, more educated and more accurate <personal attacks removed Gnan garra 03:03, 31 August 2009 (UTC)> .—Preceding unsigned comment added by Starstylers ( talk • contribs)
The anti-Japanese tone of the article represents the Allied nations view of the Occupation more than any other. The fact is that the British, who moved into the Dutch East Indies and occupied it in preparation to turning it back over to Dutch forces after the War, relied heavily on Japanese military forces to keep order for many months after the Japanese surrender. Liberation was not exactly what the British were aiming to do. 38.96.155.221 ( talk) 15:21, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
This article is very unclear for the reasons why the japanese occupied the archipelago. The article only says that the japanese wanted to be the "good ones" to free the colony, Asia to the asians and things like that. But that is maybe only the half of the truth, if so. The main interest of the japanese was the economics. For their industrial growth they needed more natural resources of which the indonesian archipelago has plenty, like gold, oil and coal in Sumatra and Borneo, all these fine and rich plantations, farms and factories (so called "Onderneming") which have been installed by the Dutch, like sugar (in fact, Java was the biggest sugar producer of the world in the 1920/30's, there were almost about 300 sugar mills, I am a member of a group around Rob Dickinson who is doing researches on this), palm oil, teak wood, rubber, tea, coffee, sisal, algarve, aloe vera, cashew, coco nuts, spices, tobacco, opium, salt, fish, shrimps and many more. The japanese occupators restructured the complete economics of the archipelago, for example they reorganized the sugar mills under control of japanese companies, they merged all the railway companies, they even built a few new railway lines, for example the so called "bones railway", or "trans sumatra spoorweg" (this is not a modern invention) to extend the west-Sumatra-railsystem (Padang) to Pekanbaru to have easyier acces for coal transportation from the sawahlunto coal mines to the chinese sea for quicker and more safe transport of the coal to the mainland Japan. 84.167.213.60 ( talk) 20:46, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
wow, the discussion page is more interesting than the article itself....i had thought the article really downplays any negative impacts of the Japanese invasion but i read in the discussion that the Dutch(and the Chinese) were quite hated...not sure what to believe as the Okinawans were just recently angry at the Japanese for their attempts at revisionist history in school textbooks re the mass suicides on the island in WWII...after enough years have passed people will just believe whatever makes them feel good...already an enormous number of holocaust deniers around and there are people still alive who were in the camps... 173.126.195.172 ( talk) 03:31, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
I find it rather surprising that despite the lenght of the article there is not one mention of the 3 to 4 million indonisians that died because of famine and the labour camps during the ocupation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.126.13.229 ( talk) 22:49, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
I am surprised - or rather, given the nationalistic tone of Wikipedia entries on Indonesia, I am not surprised - to see that the murder of thousands of Dutch civilians, including women and children by Indonesians after the war is not mentioned. These people had survived terrible hardships and privations which led to a 25% death rate under Japanese imprisonment; when the war ended and they thought they might be saved, instead many were murdered by nationalist Indonesians. This shameful episode in Indonesia's history naturally doesn't get a mention here. It should. 86.133.213.93 ( talk) 15:40, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
Indonesian romusha There is a brief mention of the recruitment of Indonesian romushas in this article. Is there anywhere I can find out more about this subject? Supposedly the mortality rate was very high and Sukarno said that he regretted encouraging Indonesians to volunteer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.150.249.171 ( talk) 05:03, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
In one case men and women were herded to a beach and machine-gunned. I will be adding some references for this. HammerFilmFan ( talk) 22:47, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: move. -- tariqabjotu 04:26, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
Japanese occupation of Indonesia → Japanese occupation of the Dutch East Indies – An editor raised this article at a recent move discussion, which I hope sets a precedent. Basically, the current title of the article is anachronistic and should be changed to reflect the reality during the period. I accept that for people more interested in Indonesian history than WWII in general it's very tempting to keep the same country name across history, but putting an country which did not then exist into a historical event still makes no sense. By extension, a fundamentally re-write of almost all "Country X in war y" articles would be needed to reflect modern borders which are less relevant to the theme than the borders which existed at the time. Brigade Piron ( talk) 09:11, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
I'm not going to deny the idea that 4 million people were killed in Indonesia during Japans occupation, but John W. Dower's estimate is just one of many. I think it would help improve this article somewhat to include a variety of sources. I've found 3 serperate estimates on the civilian deaths in Indonesia. One by Sterling Seagrave where Japans kill count was in the hundreds of thousands(only problem is that Seagrave doesn't mention how many hundreds of thousands), one by Werner Gruhl who puts the body count at 1.5 million, and one by RJ Rummel that states that 300,000 were killed(though Rummels estimates on Japans body count isn't flawless).
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/9196-sterling-and-peggy-seagrave-gold-warriors/ /info/en/?search=World_War_II_casualties#Japanese_war_crimes https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP3.HTM
One thing that baffles me about Dower's estimate and RJ Rummels estimate is that, despite both of them mentioning a UN report on Japans occupation of Indonesia, they both come up with different statistics. Does anybody have a link to the UN report so we could clearify? Thanks-Signed Graylandertagger
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 5 external links on Japanese occupation of the Dutch East Indies. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 12:13, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
This article is about the country/area or about the occupation and why use {{ Infobox former country}}? The similarly-named Indonesian occupation of East Timor doesn't use {{ Infobox former country}}. Hddty. ( talk) 06:22, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
About these numbers, the exact total number and death toll of the laborers(romusha) based on good evidence is not really known. [1] [2] The total number of romusha Japanese estimate is about 2 million, and the Indonesian estimate is about 4 million, [2] and the death toll of the romusha which written in the Indonesian history textbooks used from 1984 to 1993 is about 230,000. [2]
This additions on the research of theorists based on an objective perspective. It's not strange content that will be deleted, and since the source has a URL, it can be verified by translating it.-- みしまるもも ( talk) 02:37, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
References
Hi Brigade Piron, it is my understanding that as the war goes on, and the Japanese loses more, they tried to gain sympathy and starts to do more appeasement in Indonesia starting in 1944 and especially 1945, this include allowing to sing the National Anthem "Indonesia Raya" and flying the Indonesian Flag " Sang Saka Merah-Putih" (albeit next to the Japanese " Hinomaru"). Admittedly in 1944 the National Anthem uses the "Mulia, Mulia" lyrics [1] instead of the "Merdeka, Merdeka" lyrics but by 1945 it changes back to the original "Merdeka, Merdeka" lyrics. [2] I know these are wartime Japanese propaganda footages but i think the Indonesian Flag should be added still, maybe with a sidenote to explain it. There is also the "Janji Koiso" [3]. And in here it says [4]
Pardon me for the rushed translation. I would like to hear your thoughts on this?
References
It is said that there were three separated adminsitrative regions in the occupied Dutch East Indies, shouldn't be there an article too? Mhatopzz ( talk) 07:27, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
Would it be possible for someone who understands the language to check whether or not the 9 March edit by જય શ્રી રામ is a good change? I'm hesitant to revert it myself, but that user is a sock of someone who seems to have pushed POV in other places. Placeholderer ( talk) 16:15, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Should this article be renamed to Japanese occupation of the Dutch East Indies since Indonesia did not exist before 1945? Arsonal ( talk) 16:32, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Do not dare claim some minimally educated white with a very blatant program of altering Indonesian history to suit their own PC agenda and Australian-US-UK scholars who are barely literate in Indoneisan are some how suprerior and more authorative than Indonesian mainstream scholarship. I am sorry if you feel Indonesian history is too racist or controversial for YOU- BUT HERE'S A NASTY FACT- INDONESIAN HISTORY IS RACIST. Here are some unpleasant facts for you sok tahu bule mincing about with your infatuation with PC and multi-culturalism:
To claim Chinese had any positive involvement in Perjuangan constitutes original research and it utterly refuted by all Indonesian scholarship- which as being the narrative of its' own native history is unqueastionably the authorative version- exctly as Australin history scholarhsip is the authorative narrative of Austrlian history, British scholarship to British history and so forth.
Unless you are prepared to write Indonesian history in agreement with the dominant Indonesian academic perspective - which excludes all Gramedia/Gunung Agung/Tokoh Indonesia belated "revelations" about heroic, selfless Chinese (which should be immediately dismissed as typical Chinese self-aggrandisement and ingratiation to the dominant power) to suit your perceptions Indonesian self determination was a multi-cultural love-fest then you thoroughly need re-adjustment and a dose of reality. I am more than happy to lend a valet with English skills to tour you around all the national museums, the national archives etc to prove my point.
You will respect MY edits on my own nations history as more authoritative, more educated and more accurate <personal attacks removed Gnan garra 03:03, 31 August 2009 (UTC)> .—Preceding unsigned comment added by Starstylers ( talk • contribs)
The anti-Japanese tone of the article represents the Allied nations view of the Occupation more than any other. The fact is that the British, who moved into the Dutch East Indies and occupied it in preparation to turning it back over to Dutch forces after the War, relied heavily on Japanese military forces to keep order for many months after the Japanese surrender. Liberation was not exactly what the British were aiming to do. 38.96.155.221 ( talk) 15:21, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
This article is very unclear for the reasons why the japanese occupied the archipelago. The article only says that the japanese wanted to be the "good ones" to free the colony, Asia to the asians and things like that. But that is maybe only the half of the truth, if so. The main interest of the japanese was the economics. For their industrial growth they needed more natural resources of which the indonesian archipelago has plenty, like gold, oil and coal in Sumatra and Borneo, all these fine and rich plantations, farms and factories (so called "Onderneming") which have been installed by the Dutch, like sugar (in fact, Java was the biggest sugar producer of the world in the 1920/30's, there were almost about 300 sugar mills, I am a member of a group around Rob Dickinson who is doing researches on this), palm oil, teak wood, rubber, tea, coffee, sisal, algarve, aloe vera, cashew, coco nuts, spices, tobacco, opium, salt, fish, shrimps and many more. The japanese occupators restructured the complete economics of the archipelago, for example they reorganized the sugar mills under control of japanese companies, they merged all the railway companies, they even built a few new railway lines, for example the so called "bones railway", or "trans sumatra spoorweg" (this is not a modern invention) to extend the west-Sumatra-railsystem (Padang) to Pekanbaru to have easyier acces for coal transportation from the sawahlunto coal mines to the chinese sea for quicker and more safe transport of the coal to the mainland Japan. 84.167.213.60 ( talk) 20:46, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
wow, the discussion page is more interesting than the article itself....i had thought the article really downplays any negative impacts of the Japanese invasion but i read in the discussion that the Dutch(and the Chinese) were quite hated...not sure what to believe as the Okinawans were just recently angry at the Japanese for their attempts at revisionist history in school textbooks re the mass suicides on the island in WWII...after enough years have passed people will just believe whatever makes them feel good...already an enormous number of holocaust deniers around and there are people still alive who were in the camps... 173.126.195.172 ( talk) 03:31, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
I find it rather surprising that despite the lenght of the article there is not one mention of the 3 to 4 million indonisians that died because of famine and the labour camps during the ocupation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.126.13.229 ( talk) 22:49, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
I am surprised - or rather, given the nationalistic tone of Wikipedia entries on Indonesia, I am not surprised - to see that the murder of thousands of Dutch civilians, including women and children by Indonesians after the war is not mentioned. These people had survived terrible hardships and privations which led to a 25% death rate under Japanese imprisonment; when the war ended and they thought they might be saved, instead many were murdered by nationalist Indonesians. This shameful episode in Indonesia's history naturally doesn't get a mention here. It should. 86.133.213.93 ( talk) 15:40, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
Indonesian romusha There is a brief mention of the recruitment of Indonesian romushas in this article. Is there anywhere I can find out more about this subject? Supposedly the mortality rate was very high and Sukarno said that he regretted encouraging Indonesians to volunteer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.150.249.171 ( talk) 05:03, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
In one case men and women were herded to a beach and machine-gunned. I will be adding some references for this. HammerFilmFan ( talk) 22:47, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: move. -- tariqabjotu 04:26, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
Japanese occupation of Indonesia → Japanese occupation of the Dutch East Indies – An editor raised this article at a recent move discussion, which I hope sets a precedent. Basically, the current title of the article is anachronistic and should be changed to reflect the reality during the period. I accept that for people more interested in Indonesian history than WWII in general it's very tempting to keep the same country name across history, but putting an country which did not then exist into a historical event still makes no sense. By extension, a fundamentally re-write of almost all "Country X in war y" articles would be needed to reflect modern borders which are less relevant to the theme than the borders which existed at the time. Brigade Piron ( talk) 09:11, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
I'm not going to deny the idea that 4 million people were killed in Indonesia during Japans occupation, but John W. Dower's estimate is just one of many. I think it would help improve this article somewhat to include a variety of sources. I've found 3 serperate estimates on the civilian deaths in Indonesia. One by Sterling Seagrave where Japans kill count was in the hundreds of thousands(only problem is that Seagrave doesn't mention how many hundreds of thousands), one by Werner Gruhl who puts the body count at 1.5 million, and one by RJ Rummel that states that 300,000 were killed(though Rummels estimates on Japans body count isn't flawless).
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/9196-sterling-and-peggy-seagrave-gold-warriors/ /info/en/?search=World_War_II_casualties#Japanese_war_crimes https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP3.HTM
One thing that baffles me about Dower's estimate and RJ Rummels estimate is that, despite both of them mentioning a UN report on Japans occupation of Indonesia, they both come up with different statistics. Does anybody have a link to the UN report so we could clearify? Thanks-Signed Graylandertagger
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 5 external links on Japanese occupation of the Dutch East Indies. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 12:13, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
This article is about the country/area or about the occupation and why use {{ Infobox former country}}? The similarly-named Indonesian occupation of East Timor doesn't use {{ Infobox former country}}. Hddty. ( talk) 06:22, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
About these numbers, the exact total number and death toll of the laborers(romusha) based on good evidence is not really known. [1] [2] The total number of romusha Japanese estimate is about 2 million, and the Indonesian estimate is about 4 million, [2] and the death toll of the romusha which written in the Indonesian history textbooks used from 1984 to 1993 is about 230,000. [2]
This additions on the research of theorists based on an objective perspective. It's not strange content that will be deleted, and since the source has a URL, it can be verified by translating it.-- みしまるもも ( talk) 02:37, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
References
Hi Brigade Piron, it is my understanding that as the war goes on, and the Japanese loses more, they tried to gain sympathy and starts to do more appeasement in Indonesia starting in 1944 and especially 1945, this include allowing to sing the National Anthem "Indonesia Raya" and flying the Indonesian Flag " Sang Saka Merah-Putih" (albeit next to the Japanese " Hinomaru"). Admittedly in 1944 the National Anthem uses the "Mulia, Mulia" lyrics [1] instead of the "Merdeka, Merdeka" lyrics but by 1945 it changes back to the original "Merdeka, Merdeka" lyrics. [2] I know these are wartime Japanese propaganda footages but i think the Indonesian Flag should be added still, maybe with a sidenote to explain it. There is also the "Janji Koiso" [3]. And in here it says [4]
Pardon me for the rushed translation. I would like to hear your thoughts on this?
References
It is said that there were three separated adminsitrative regions in the occupied Dutch East Indies, shouldn't be there an article too? Mhatopzz ( talk) 07:27, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
Would it be possible for someone who understands the language to check whether or not the 9 March edit by જય શ્રી રામ is a good change? I'm hesitant to revert it myself, but that user is a sock of someone who seems to have pushed POV in other places. Placeholderer ( talk) 16:15, 3 April 2024 (UTC)