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This wikipedia article shows apparent statistcs about the relationship between Islam and Violence. Those statistics have two main points (actually a third one, which I could not check).
The first is about an article of Professor Fish, in which he states that he conducted some regressions which apparently show that "more Muslims means less homicide". While this is true and absolutely in agreement with the original source ( https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2015/01/27/why-is-terror-islamist/), the article at the very same time states that Islamists are responsible for 70% of all terrorist deaths (according to Fish): "In a recent book I reported that between 1994 and 2008, the world suffered 204 high-casualty terrorist bombings. Islamists were responsible for 125, or 61 percent of these incidents, which accounted for 70 percent of all deaths." Now, when I add this paragraph, it gets repeatedly deleted by user GenoV84. Why? One cannot simply cite some parts from the Fish article and ignore the other parts. Ignoring this statement by Fish means that one cherry-picks those information pieces from the article that support one view. This is called propaganda.
The second is about an apparent comparative statistical analysis of the Qu'ran by Tom Anderson ( https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/violence-more-common-bible-quran-text-analysis-reveals-a6863381.html). Anderson's analysis is highly superficial, as he states himself: "I must also reemphasize that this analysis is superficial and the findings are by no means intended to be conclusive. Ours is a 30,000-ft, cursory view of three texts: the Quran and the Old and New Testaments, respectively." When I add this information, it gets likewise deleted, by the same user. Moreover, a more detailed version of the analysis is given here ( https://www.prweb.com/releases/odintext/textanalysis/prweb13172048.htm). When I add this further information, e.g., "The concept of ‘love’ appears most often in the New Testament (3.0%), significantly more than in either the Old Testament (1.9%) or the Quran (1.26%).", this is likewise deleted. Why? As a scientist, I'm appalled by the subjective and one-sided information that this wikipedia article spreads.
If your intent was to make me laugh, congratulations! You did it. Everybody is welcome to edit and improve Wikipedia, regardless of their professional status or degree. You seem to assume quite a lot about other people's lives, how do you know if I am a scientist or not? Do you have any evidence to backup for your claims about me and my personal life? GenoV84 ( talk) 06:25, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
"I am a scientist (and you are not)".... And you have a Nobel Prize to prove it, don't you?
"I make you an offer. If you are a scientist, let's exchange our names. I can give you an email address (not my official one), and we take it from there."Asking another person to dox himself by releasing his personal informations and e-mail address in order to "make a deal" is a totally inappropriate behavior and ridiculous thing to do on the internet, and a potential violation of WP:PRIVACY on Wikipedia.
Barraista: 1) The material you added may be okay for this article, but it has to be formatted properly. Lots of small sections with dates as titles is not acceptable. Look at other, similar articles to see what an encyclopedic format looks like. 2) Make sure the sources identify the Islam religion (not just people/leaders who happen to be Muslim) as related to the violence 3) Some of the material may be better in the Islam and terrorism article. This article here Islam and violence is more of a top-level article (see WP:Summary style for more info). -- Noleander ( talk) 23:15, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
1) The dates ae prior to WW2, before the modern phenomenon of what we call now: "terror attacks" - came avout. the dates involve either Islamic movement with violence as a theme. 2) violence in the name of Islam like mentioning Islamic calls during the massacres, or Islamic massacres in a clear attempt to Islamize a region (like Moplah massacres). In any case, violence by a religous leader, by an ISLAMIC SUPREME BEING like the Mufti is already "Islamic." 3) I just added some of the material with a clear introduction of the 'holy war.' It ias all under that section. Also the
caliphate dimension to the terrorism section.
Barrasita (
talk) 04:02, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
Barrista: make sure the sources you use are "reliable" .. see WP:Reliable sources for details. Academic and scholarly works are best. If a particular issue is raised by a Christian source, that is okay, but in that case there should be a second, independent source that talks about it and refers to the Christian source. See WP:Secondary source for details. Please double-check your sources you recently used, it looks like many of them are not quite good enough. The material may be okay: but you need better sources. -- Noleander ( talk) 01:15, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
I am looking at the revision history, there's a lot of information removed, it only needs to be rewriten and improved. Blitzland ( talk) 16:15, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
I edited Barrasita's material, but removed 'deadlinks' and reference to faithfreedom.org as it might not be such a RS. As well as some items not so obvious related to violence derived from Islamic nature/spirit/text/ideas.
What I did reposted with alterations in formatting and adding the ISAM-ic natute includes: Muhammad's followers in Islam's early days acting for his honor/sake, Muslims using Islamic themes, Quranic text or/and ideas, mobilized forced conversions, attacks by Islamic religious athorities often explained with declaration of clear 'Islamic' goals, violence with a clear subjucation of Dhimmitude / infidels status, [regarding the massacres in early Islam in Spain, during frictions, Christians and Jews were dehumanized and referred to as apes and pigs, a Quranic inspired idea. [1]. Blitzland ( talk) 13:31, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
Thank you blitsland, now please search for suleika affair, i will leave it to you as you write better than me. cheers. Barrasita ( talk) 14:59, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
Word Usage
Caliph is translated from the Arabic Khalifa (خليفة ẖalīfä) meaning " successor", " substitute", or " lieutenant". It is used in the Qur'an to establish Adam's role as representative of Allah on earth. Kalifa is also used to describe the belief that man's role, in his real nature, is as khalifa or viceroy to Allah. [1] The word is also most commonly used for the Islamic leader of the Ummah; starting with Muhammad and his line of successors. http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Caliph Blitzland ( talk) 16:15, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
Al-Qaeda chiefs reveal world domination design (theage.com.au The Age 2005-08-24) [...] Phase five will be the point at which an Islamic state, or caliphate... http://www.theage.com.au/news/war-on-terror/alqaeda-chiefs-reveal-world-domination-design/2005/08/23/1124562861654.html
Obama has (also) linked Caliphate to Islamic terrorism (violence?) / goal. {from the text in the article):
The terrorists are at war with us... They kill man, woman and child; Christian and Hindu, Jew and Muslim. They seek to create a repressive caliphate. To defeat this enemy, we must understand who we are fighting against, and what we are fighting for. http://www.barackobama.com/2007/08/01/the_war_we_need_to_win.php
It is under "terrorism" section. Blitzland ( talk) 18:02, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
From the book: Islam and liberty: the historical misunderstanding G - Reference, Information and Interdisciplinary Subjects Series by Mohamed Charfi, Patrick Camiller. Published by Zed Books, 2005 ( ISBN 1842775111, 9781842775110):
In 1994 the Algerian Armed Islamist Group (GIA), which is well known for its radical positions and the barbaric violence of its operations, announced the restoration of the caliphate and the appointment of a caliph... http://books.google.com/books?id=lxxjHjiZo68C&pg=PA104
Times Online - July 27, 2008
A third of Muslim students back killings ALMOST a third of British Muslim students believe killing in the name of Islam can be justified, according to a poll... The research found that a third of Muslim students supported the creation of a world-wide caliphate or Islamic state. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article4407115.ece
From the book: Islam and liberty: the historical misunderstanding G - Reference, Information and Interdisciplinary Subjects Series by Mohamed Charfi, Patrick Camiller. Published by Zed Books, 2005 ( ISBN 1842775111, 9781842775110):
In 1994 the Algerian Armed Islamist Group (GIA), which is well known for its radical positions and the barbaric violence of its operations, announced the restoration of the caliphate and the appointment of a caliph... http://books.google.com/books?id=lxxjHjiZo68C&pg=PA104
From the book: Title The Theory and Practice of Islamic Terrorism: An Anthology
by Marvin Perry, Howard E. Negrin. Publisher Macmillan, 2008. (ISBN-9780230608641) Page 199
Make no mistake about it: They are sacrificing their men, women, and children for this goal of world domination. They are willing to bring about an Armageddon to conquer the world to Islam
From book History upside down: the roots of Palestinian fascism and the myth of Israeli aggression Brief encounters by David Meir-Levi. (Publisher Encounter Books, 2007
ISBN-9781594031922) pp. 39-40
Hamas... well known as a self-defined religious-apocalyptic terrorist group whose foundational documents preach genocide and world domination by the military and religious forces of Islam. In Arabic, Hamas means "Zeal." In Hebrew, Arabic's sister language, the same word means "violence." ..one Islamic religious Caliphate... http://books.google.com/books?id=1pLi3Cy8uQkC&pg=PA39
From book: Perspectives on violence and violent death Death, value, and meaning series by Robert G. Stevenson, Gerry R. Cox. Publisher Baywood Pub., 2007 ( ISBN 0895033135, 9780895033130, In its introduction: "This book examines violence. It looks at the nature and types of violence, the causes of violence, and the emotional wake left by violent episodes. In the twentieth century, the world experienced two world wars and countless other wars. Many millions died violent deaths from murder, death squads, purges, riots, revolutions, ethnic cleansing.")
From: pp. 83-4
Restore the Islamic Caliphate: The Caliphate refers to the restoration of the messengers of the Prophet ... as a response to perceived moral decay caused by Western political and social influences, the extremist components in both sects (Shia, Sunni) believe that a return to Islam and the Quran as the Word of God is the only way to revive Islamic civilization and combat the threat of foreign influence... [2] reasserting the goal of Muslim's to expel the foreign dominators and restore traditional Islamic order... "[Muslim] Brotherhood"... dedicated to reinstating the Caliphate [3]
(Note: Claiphate = Allah's rule on the earth, see at the beginning of this discusson) Book: Living with Terrorism by Steven C. King. Publisher AuthorHouse, 2007 ( ISBN 1434338436, 9781434338433). Page 109
Recruiting for Jihad... speaks about becoming a “Shaheed” (suicide bomber), and on its Jihad page states: “Islam also trains all those who volunteer for service to Allah before allowing them to undertake jihad (sic) and establish Allah's rule on the earth.' http://books.google.com/books?id=gud-BwjsQXEC&pg=PA109
Point is: I support it to be under 'Islamic terrorism' as a cause, derived from an Islamic concept (Allah's rule on earth). I wasn't suggesting that the entire concept of Caliphate is inherently violent. but as a motivation used by violent Al Qaeda and Hamas. Blitzland ( talk) 19:32, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
Blitzland/Barraista: The new material does not seem to have remedied the numerous defects identified above. I'd hate to revert it again, but you need so spend more time and remedy the shortcomings. Let me give a few examples:
This is the third time you have been told about these guidelines. Much of the material you are re-inserting for the third time without remedying the problems. Also, for the sources that are not available to other editors on-line, you may need to type-in some quotes from the source (here on the Talk page; or in a footnote) to help other editors understand if the material is appropriate or not. It looks like much of the material could be appropriate for the article, but you need to work on it more. If there was less material, I would volunteer to help fix it myself. Here is a suggestion: what if you just add the sections one at a time, and we can work together and fix them one one by one? -- Noleander ( talk) 14:52, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
This is about Islamic Holy wars!!! Islamic Inspired, or theme embbeded.
---
Holy wars in Islam from its early days till post WW2, 622-1946
all violence by Mufti's Jihad 1920-1943
(Also) often explained with declaration of clear 'Islamic' goals.
B) The grand Mufti (the highest religious authority in Islam dictating Islamic law and "who was given sole religious authority" [7]) waged a Jihad against the West and the Jews between 1920-1940. [8] especially a "holy war" against the Jews. [9] "Throughout his public career, the Mufti relied upon traditional Koranic anti-Jewish motifs to arouse the Arab street." [10] "Perhaps the longest-running jihad in today's world is the struggle to reclaim Israel for the Muslims... by the "highest ranking Islamic cleric." [11].
The Legacy of Islamic-Antisemitism pp. 46-47:
Various anti-dhimmi regulations became integral to the permanent “humiliation and wretchedness” prescribed for the Jews, specifically, by the Qur’anic curse of 2:61. Breaches of this regulatory pact (or “dhimma”) by Jews—whether real or perceived—could have disastrous consequences, including fully sanctioned jihad violence directed at them.
Blitzland ( talk) 15:35, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
What "other" blogs are you referring to (if usa-morocco is indeed a blog, it can be replaced, rest assured all their info is well-historically sourced here's one:
[18])?
Let me give you an example in English what do you think of the following:
<bockquote>They were coming, thousands and thousands, shouting 'Allahu Akbar! God is great! Let us attack them for the Arabs, let us offer a holocaust to Mohammad!
http://books.google.com/books?id=6bEwc2FStIYC&pg=PA125
Why do you need an Islamic text always to justify a link by you or me, If Islamists USE Islamic themese text and ideas in order to qualify for Islamic Holy Wars? I am not saying that Islam neccessarily orders to do all those things, I am no Imam, I am writing on Jihad, Islamic "holy wars." as perceived by those carrying out the deeds. Please look again at my explanation above why they are connected to Islamic inspired violence. [unsigned by Blitzland]
Dear Noleander, Do you prefer the dates to be formatted in bullets like this (example): *890 ? Blitzland ( talk) 21:37, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
From:
To
That will tighten up the text, and the boldface text will give the reader an idea what the paragraph is about. -- Noleander ( talk) 13:46, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Blitz/Bar: the citations are still wrong. I tried to check a few, and the FIRST one I tried was " Philippine gov't releases video of Abu Sayyaf atrocities | Asian Political News Newspaper | Find Articles at BNET". Philippine gov't releases video of Abu Sayyaf atrocities | Asian Political News Newspaper | Find Articles at BNET and it failed. Please review ALL the citations, and remove those that refer to blogs or minor web sites. -- Noleander ( talk) 13:46, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Noleander I appreciate that, and fixed that link, with subsituting BBC pages, I also removed Barrasita's item about the 1886 Petach Tikva attack, because I can't connect it (with sources) to the Mufti or/and Jihadism. Blitzland ( talk) 15:35, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
Shii: Did you want to propose a re-name for this article? If so, please do so on this Talk page. There is a lot of drama on WP, and the consensus process (especially for contentious articles) requires that we discuss significant changes. Thanks. -- Noleander ( talk) 18:25, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
Shii's added 'lead' is on top of the page, In the 'cuurent holy-war' section, The Ayatollah, Laskar Jihad etc. have been split in order to see clarity. Blitzland ( talk) 16:48, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
Not to overcomplicate the name issue, I was actually a bit misled by this name. It's known that by far most Muslim violence has been against other Muslims, such as inter-tribal and sectarian wars. The Sunni-Shia variety is happening on a major scale in Iraq once again. And of course we have the Taliban. The Iran-Iraq war killed around half a million. The list goes on. In any case, I was expecting this article to discuss Muslim violence against other Muslims, not just Jihad against Jews and Christians. -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 07:49, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
This article is incredibly biased. It speaks of world domination and antisemitism, but fails to point out the resentment Muslim youths feel towards the West because of the history of colonialism that has never ended. For example, the Grand Mufti used Islam to arouse youthful violence against Jews in WWII, but don't forget that Britain was occupying Palestine and force settling Jews on his home before his very eyes. Same with Iraq; it sided with Germany, but it was under British occupation after all, and it was only natural for Palestine and Iraq to do what they can to get independence. I'm sure you'll find that the Mufti wasn't the only one in WWII who went to extremities; there were massive civilians massacres on the part of the Allies too. The Mufti was just unique in doing so religiously, admittedly. However, religiously or not, you have to bear into mind the reasons that would drive him into doing those things, or more importantly, drive the hordes of others into supporting him.
Same with modern "world domination". Even among modern Mujahideen that is a very far fetched and rare concept. It's a dream they all have, but not all of them are willing to fight and go that far. You forget to mention how the United States toppled the democratic PM of Iran in 1953 (which caused the resentful Islamists to hold American hostages for 444 days in 1979 after deposing the repressive pro-American Shah), and helped Iraq against Iran in 1980-1988, and how Israel bombed Lebanon in 1982, and of course the good ole' Gulf War in 1991, and the sanctions that followed, plus all the spontaneous raids on Iraq, Libya, Sudan, Afghanistan, Yemen, and Pakistan on the part of America and its allies. You realize that these things help distort the way Muslims view non-Muslims, right? If you notice, all pre-1982 Arab terrorism was nationalistic and secular, not Muslim. It only gained an Islamic vibe after the 1982 war and the failure of Arab nationalist governments to act. While the bloodshed caused by Muslims and Christians in Lebanon was way harsher, the fact that Israel took advantage of the weakened state of the country, and used advanced weaponry on a defenseless republic did turn Muslim opinion against them. Furthermore, let us not forget how the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq only increased terrorism globally. That in itself tells you something; the more Muslims perceive that non-Muslims are grouping up against them, the more they will feel an urge to believe what the zealots tell them. I think that in itself would be worth mentioning in the article in order to avoid giving a biased outlook. Propaganda works really well if accompanied by pictures of dead Muslim children on TV. That should really be mentioned. Oh, and Saddam Hussein was a secular. Some Gulf jurists called him an infidel/apostate, and justified getting infidels (aka, Americans) to bomb him, so it really works both ways. You can say whatever you want in public; some people will always buy it. He only used Islam to gather support, and someone tells me even claimed descendence from Muhammad. Religious propaganda is commonly used as a tool for gathering support, nothing more. It should be noted that many so called Muslim extremists were actually the furthest people from Islam. These include him and Yasser Arafat. Not every Muslim terrorist is an Islamist. An Islamist one would install a Sharia law after succeeding, which is not what the Baath and Fatah had in mind. I am a Muslim, and I would understand about the mentality of other Muslims. I've tried confronting radicals before, and they'd always bring up what Jews did in Palestine, or what America did in Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, Sudan, etc. In short, every generation of wars breeds more radical Muslims. Now these radicals will confront the West in a new war, and the West's retaliation will be even harsher, and the Muslim world will witness even more atrocities, and resentment will only get higher. In short, it's never going to end at this rate.
As for Khaybar, that story is unreliable and will never be reliable. Do not preach as fact about Muhammad that which is not proven. Normally when Muslim tradition portrays something positively, the article says "according to Muslim tradition;" so why doesn't it say "according to said source" in this article? All we have is a biography written 150 years after his death. Its author, Ibn Ishaq, got that information from descendants of the Jews in question. Muhammad never killed the other two Jewish tribes, he just expelled them. Why would he exterminate the third? The Hadith, too, was compiled generations after Muhammad's life but it uses a Sanad, or a list of narrators starting from Muhammad himself down to the person telling the author of the Hadith compilation about said Hadith. Ibn Ishaq never bothered with checking the authenticity of the Sanad for liars, hypocrites, drunks, insane individuals, and other possible imperfections. The character background and the reputation history of the person narrating a Hadith is very important in order for the Muslim jurist to actually believe it is part of Islam. But since this article isn't a Muslim one, it should be at least worth mentioning that the first source that describes a genocide of Jews by Muhammad came at least 150 years after Muhammad's death.
UltimateDarkloid (
talk) 23:07, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
You said this: ""This article is incredibly biased. It speaks of world domination and antisemitism, but fails to point out the resentment Muslim youths feel towards the West because of the history of colonialism that has never ended."" I say: Pffft! You speak of colonialism as though Europeans are the first to do it! Muslims colonized all of North Africa and stole it from the Native Christian people there [and forced those Christians to convert], Muslims colonized the rest of the Middle East, Iran, Anatolia, and Central Asia aswell...Muslims ALSO tried to colonize Spain, Portugal, Southern Italy, Siciliy, and South Eastern Europe. So If anyone should be mad it is non-Muslims! Muslims were trying to conquer Europe for more than 1000 years after the death of Muhammad, it is only because of the technology revolution in Europe that the tables were turned, and Muslims got a taste of their own medicine for a change..
107.222.205.242 (
talk)
I have moved the coatrack of wars to the article on Jihad. My rationale was that this article was too long (205kb at its max) and since Jihad already had a coatrack and so that article was the most logical temporary place to park the one that used to be here. However, doing that made Jihad too long (171kb) so we need a longer term solution. I have made a proposal here. Please look at it and provide your feed back at Talk:Jihad.
-- Richard S ( talk) 17:43, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
User:Al-Andalusi has suggested that the article Qur'an and violence should either be merged to Jihad or renamed. Given that both Qur'an and violence and Jihad are very long, I don't think a merger is a good idea. However, I do think there is merit in the idea of renaming Qur'an and violence to Qur'an and jihad or Qur'an and war. Please take a look at the discussion at Talk:Qur'an and violence and provide your input. -- Richard S ( talk) 18:59, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
An editor rm a summary of Islam's early history. The summary lacked references but seemed accurate to me, so I restored it with links and citation requests. What is inaccurate about it? Student7 ( talk) 16:50, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
I think this article should follow Christianity and violence in content and structure: i.e. it should discuss Islamic attitudes towards violence, without listing every act of violence ever perpetrated by Muslims in the name of Islam. Most such acts can be covered under Islamic terrorism anyways. VR talk 02:06, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
It looks unfinished, obviously, but about the Islam and Domestic violence section: "The relationship between Islam and domestic violence is disputed". By who? Details? No discussion of how the concerns arose. These ideas are "vaguely justified with reference to the Qur'an". We're dealing with legitimate concerns about a discriminatory practice within factions of a religion and that sentence reads like a lazy dismissal. "Some of the scholars allowing "beating" stress that it is a last resort" - which scholars? What part of Islam? Phrasing reads like a vague justification for the practice, easily interpretable as a tacit acceptance of male-on-female authority. No exploration of its problematic nature. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.124.210.71 ( talk) 17:36, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
I agree that "Current holy wars" is a valid topic. Reviewing the section again, I find that some of the subsections are worth keeping (e.g. Ayatollah, Taliban, Wahhabists). However, the sections are badly written and include text that makes the subsection ramble. In general, the whole section just kind of mentions a bunch of "holy wars" without connecting them together in any overall framework. Are these holy wars related or not? Stepping back from the details and providing a discussion of how scholars view the current state of Islamic violence would be more valuable than this seemingly "random collection of facts". -- Pseudo-Richard ( talk) 16:15, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
I haven't digested all the changes yet, but under one subsection, "Western stereotypes", we have a bunch of nn editors with odd opinions. One reads "Juan Eduardo Campo writes that, "Europeans (have) viewed Islam in various ways: sometimes as a backward, violent religion; sometimes as an Arabian Nights fantasy;" Westerners regard Islam as an "Arabian Nights fantasy?" What? Who are these people? This is a bit of straw man fallacy, isn't it? We laugh at "Arabian Nights" analogy, and therefore people fearing Islam are also likely laughable, right? Student7 ( talk) 00:23, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
How about some notable scholars in this subsection? Why are they all unknown? Student7 ( talk) 00:23, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
Half the article was removed in June. I have my doubts over the correctness of the excisions, citing " Ibn Warraq not a RS" for hi own views.
Having said that the article needs structure, it is currently a bit of a disaster area, partly as a result of that edit, and a previous one which split the article, and partly because it is such a broad topic, covering thirteen centuries and religion, sociology, law, crime and punishment, and military history. For that reason it would probably be better reduced to an overview, linking to disparate articles.
Rich
Farmbrough, 12:01, 6 February 2012 (UTC).
I've added new material backed with reliable sources wherever needed. If any one takes issue with one of these inclusions please let me know here, before reverting the changes. But of course, you may rearrange the content freely.
Add this → "{{Talkback|Talk:Islam_and_violence|New addition|ts=~~~~~}}" template on my talk-page, if you're worried I'll not be quick to respond. I repeat, please do it before reverting/erasing my changes. I can prove that these are all legitimate and reliable sources. Brendon is here 08:46, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
"Early Gallup Poll data suggested that 6.5% of Muslims worldwide thought the 9/11 attacks were mostly justified, while 55.4% thought the attacks were not justified at all.[2] " This is actually an incorrect inference from the data, as the data sets were taken from 1-5, 1 being not justified at all and 5 being completely justifiable. The breakdown is as follows [1] 55.4 [2] 11.8 [3] 11.3 [4] 6.5 with a remained of 15% for [5] who believed the attacks were completely justifiable. Per the reference, "We defined "radicals" (as opposed to the "politically radicalized") as those who answered a "4" or a "5" to the 9/11 justification question, and compared this group to those who answered with a "1" or a "2" " -- this would mean, according to the source, 15+6.5=21.5% of those surveyed were "politically radicalized" and felt that the 9/11 attacks were mostly or completely justifiable. The 1-4 breakdown, in the source article, was an attempt to determine which respondents were "radicalized." This article on Islam and violence is wrong from the reference material and misleading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Freakdog ( talk • contribs) 01:58, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
"This article on Islam and violence is wrong from the reference material and misleading."? I deemed the initial premise of your observation as being worth examining carefully until you tacked on the second unsupported statement regarding the entire article as if it were a reliably supported fact. This is an article WP:TALK page, not a WP:SOAPBOX. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 05:38, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
I have reservations regarding the use of the 9/11 attacks as being central to the WP:TITLE. It may be an emotive subject for those in the US, but is WP:UNDUE for the lead. There is a section explicitly dedicated to the poll in the article, but the article is not "Islam and 9/11". It simply doesn't meet with WP:NPOV for the WP:LEAD. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 03:29, 20 November 2015 (UTC)The term "moderate" is more of a placeholder label than a value judgment. It is similar to calling one clustering in the data "group A" and another "group B." We simply used labels that a broad audience can easily understand and remember. Some have also asked how we can call someone a "radical" simply because they thought 9/11 was justified and actually had not *done* anything. The idea here is not that we are judging who or what a "moderate" or "radical" is, but rather assigning labels to statistical groups that we clearly define.
I'm happy with the poll in or out but not with a misleading presentation of the results Freakdog ( talk) 03:41, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
I concur. I don't believe that poll as properly represented adds additional value beyond what's already in that section. Be bold :) Freakdog ( talk) 17:06, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
Iryna Harpy sorry but which part of my edits are POV and why? Rupert Loup ( talk) 23:15, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
I notice that Islamic fanaticism now redirects to this article. Should this page redirect instead to Religious fanaticism#Islam?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jarble ( talk • contribs) 04:39, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
@ Iryna Harpy: I also noticed that History of Islamic fanaticism and Islamic extremist groups both redirect to Islamism. Jarble ( talk) 18:11, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
The articles are WP:CFORK, the two covers two different sides of the same topic. In my opinion they should be merged in one balanced article. Rupert Loup ( talk) 22:35, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
comment The proposal is based on a blurry thinking. Peace, violence , extremism, pacifism are completely different subjects. Therefore the corresponding "Islam" articles must be cleaned up to reflect exactly what they are about, with cross-referencing (since the topics are indeed interrelated) and minimizing duplication. If you don't understand the difference between the concepts peace, violence, extremism, pacifism, you are not qualified to discuss the subjects at all. Repeating FORK-FORK does not make it FORK. Staszek Lem ( talk) 22:58, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
Iryna Harpy and Staszek Lem, the discussion about Pacifism in Islam is now taking place here. Rupert Loup ( talk) 01:54, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Islam and violence's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "Leaman":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 22:09, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
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JG Estiot ( talk) 22:46, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
There is something seriously wrong with this article. It is titled "Islam and Violence" but yet does not wholly focus on what may or may not constitute violence in Islam.
In my opinion, we should first build a list of items that fall directly under the heading and not deviate into some kind of politically correct transgressions such as positives or negative perception of Islam because it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic. This is not an article about perception of Islam. This can be done separately.
I suggest the following items to be developed within the article (some are already there):
The above would be a good starting point. If the article is about Islam and Violence, let stick to the topic. Perhaps and for the sale of balance, it would be a good idea to start an article on "Islam and Peace" if it has not already been done. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jgestiot ( talk • contribs)
This article is basically a list of Islamic topics that deal with "violence": Islam and war, Islam and domestic violence, Islamic criminal jurisprudence and Pacifism in Islam. There is no content in this article that would be unique to Islam and violence. In fact, this article appears to be hodge podge of topics. It's best that it be used as a Disambig page pointing to articles mentioned above. Bless sins ( talk) 01:42, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
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Magaard's essay on this topic was published in an academic volume, and we can reflect that source here. However, she's an economist and not an established expert on this topic, so we need to exercise some caution about how we handle statements that come from her interviews and not academic publications. On the other hand, there's no indication that 10news.one is a RS, so we can't use any statements that come from it at all. I'll replace that citation with the original JP article (which, as far as I can tell, doesn't mention her colleagues). The citation for the book was also wrong. Eperoton ( talk) 01:24, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
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Jihad is made to ensure that the Islamic religion is safe and secure from any intrusion.-- Abdullah Alyahya ( talk) 19:20, 10 December 2017 (UTC) Some people are confusing terrorists with Islam because some followers of the region may be engaging themselves in terror activities (Ihsan). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abdullah Alyahya ( talk • contribs) 19:21, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
In this subsection, I would like to utilize another study that compares how media cover terrorist attacks performed by Muslims and non-Muslims in the U.S. This is very critical in understanding how media attract public support in order to create a "war for Islam" or portray Islam and Muslims as the actors on "War on America" [1]. Seda gedik ( talk) 03:09, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
References
I noticed to someone totally changed section of pacifism in islam without any explanation. I put back old content, what is sourced and seems balanced. Also I presented one additional source https://www.bbc.com/bitesize/guides/zfnv87h/revision/7 and there is noted to "most Muslims are not pacifists. This is because the teachings in the Qur'an and Hadith allow for wars to be fought if they can be justified". Quaran and Hadith are normative content and esence of Islam and if according to them wars are acceptable there cant be talk about pacifism. And that is shared by majority and it is majority view of muslims. Movements what linked pacifism to Islam are right now small minority. I am sorry but currently that is how facts are. 109.93.186.50 ( talk) 08:55, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
Giving to much weight to movements or "schools of thought" what are minority and some can be called fringe or to just some individual examples (note it is talk about whole religion not individuals or individual acts or so) without note about majority view is wrong. Facts are facts. And facts are: 1. In Islam most of Muslims are not pacifist. BBC source. 2. Quaran and Hadith allow wars to be fought. That is normative tradition. Main in Islam, essence. Sourced. 3. Movements who linked/link pacifism with Islam are small minority and some of them are / not considered Muslim by most of Muslims or really minor. E.g ahmadiyya movement and some of sufi orders. 4. Even Ahmadiyya Muslims accept violence as the last option only to be used to protect religion and one's own life in extreme situations of persecution, again not pacifism. 5. Self defence is not pacifism. 6. Nonviolence is not pacifism. 7. Personal oponions can't lead to rewriting fact about history of numerous wars, defensive and offensive, majority views, traditions, texts, sources etc etc. In content what I put back is note about movements, note about history, note about legitimate self defence note about when fighiting stop according to Quran and all sourced good according to fact and balanced. 109.93.186.50 ( talk) 15:28, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
"Fight in the Way of God against those who fight you, but do not go beyond the limits. God does not love those who go beyond the limits." Surah-Al-Baqarah, the second chapter of the Quran. Beauty School Dropout ( talk) 18:36, 19 July 2019 (UTC) There is a long and documented history of pacifism within Islam. Beauty School Dropout ( talk) 18:36, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
178.221.118.83 ( talk) 02:21, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
This is rather short, so - in the "Statistics" section, should it not mention that the definition of "violent crime" et al. varies between countries? Perhaps most pertinently, if one reads the article on domestic violence in islam, or in general, violence against women in islam, it would seem that the statistics and/or consensus there is that there is clearly more domestic violence against women in muslim-majority countries - by a rather wide margin - than in other countries. So, just saying that "hey, there is less murder in muslim-majority countries" and focusing so heavily on that in the lead-in of the section, seems rather misleading, in a section in an article called "Islam and violence", doesn't it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:9B1:8826:0:98:128:186:119 ( talk) 23:51, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
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Need help from someone who can check the recent changes and make a decision or take action, if necessary. Currently, there is a revert war going on for keeping a longstanding version of the article where every heading and sub-headings are placed randomly. I believe, version 1160797188 is better and the one that has a flow based on the introduction paragraph. The current version is all over the place, an obvious one would be placing Quran as a type of violence, while it's a religious text, and as the introduction paragraph mentions a religious background. Need intervention to stop vandalism based on statements that probably doesn't have anything to do with Wikipedia policy. 2605:B100:D20:5AEF:3A88:B0D1:7F58:23E6 ( talk) 17:29, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
We have prose about a a software developer (not a religious expert) comparing the old Testament to the Quran. It ends with this quote - "Anderson states that: "I must also reemphasize that this analysis is superficial and the findings are by no means intended to be conclusive."
Why would we put in arbitrary shallow analysis from nonexperts? 99.33.184.99 ( talk) 13:27, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
Provided sources are mostly at least 10 years old, some of them over 20 years. This can not reflect recent data and is thus misleading.
Moreover, I do not see in which way a text analysis comparison of the Quran and the Bible contributes to the topic. Violence of religious people is not attributable to word-frequency in holy books. This paragraph insinuates that the bible is more violent than the Quran - but what is the conclusion? At the same time the word "love" appears more often in the Bible than in Quran - what does this say us? Answer: Nothing. Therefore I propose the deletion of this paragraph. Abba1200 ( talk) 19:45, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
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This wikipedia article shows apparent statistcs about the relationship between Islam and Violence. Those statistics have two main points (actually a third one, which I could not check).
The first is about an article of Professor Fish, in which he states that he conducted some regressions which apparently show that "more Muslims means less homicide". While this is true and absolutely in agreement with the original source ( https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2015/01/27/why-is-terror-islamist/), the article at the very same time states that Islamists are responsible for 70% of all terrorist deaths (according to Fish): "In a recent book I reported that between 1994 and 2008, the world suffered 204 high-casualty terrorist bombings. Islamists were responsible for 125, or 61 percent of these incidents, which accounted for 70 percent of all deaths." Now, when I add this paragraph, it gets repeatedly deleted by user GenoV84. Why? One cannot simply cite some parts from the Fish article and ignore the other parts. Ignoring this statement by Fish means that one cherry-picks those information pieces from the article that support one view. This is called propaganda.
The second is about an apparent comparative statistical analysis of the Qu'ran by Tom Anderson ( https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/violence-more-common-bible-quran-text-analysis-reveals-a6863381.html). Anderson's analysis is highly superficial, as he states himself: "I must also reemphasize that this analysis is superficial and the findings are by no means intended to be conclusive. Ours is a 30,000-ft, cursory view of three texts: the Quran and the Old and New Testaments, respectively." When I add this information, it gets likewise deleted, by the same user. Moreover, a more detailed version of the analysis is given here ( https://www.prweb.com/releases/odintext/textanalysis/prweb13172048.htm). When I add this further information, e.g., "The concept of ‘love’ appears most often in the New Testament (3.0%), significantly more than in either the Old Testament (1.9%) or the Quran (1.26%).", this is likewise deleted. Why? As a scientist, I'm appalled by the subjective and one-sided information that this wikipedia article spreads.
If your intent was to make me laugh, congratulations! You did it. Everybody is welcome to edit and improve Wikipedia, regardless of their professional status or degree. You seem to assume quite a lot about other people's lives, how do you know if I am a scientist or not? Do you have any evidence to backup for your claims about me and my personal life? GenoV84 ( talk) 06:25, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
"I am a scientist (and you are not)".... And you have a Nobel Prize to prove it, don't you?
"I make you an offer. If you are a scientist, let's exchange our names. I can give you an email address (not my official one), and we take it from there."Asking another person to dox himself by releasing his personal informations and e-mail address in order to "make a deal" is a totally inappropriate behavior and ridiculous thing to do on the internet, and a potential violation of WP:PRIVACY on Wikipedia.
Barraista: 1) The material you added may be okay for this article, but it has to be formatted properly. Lots of small sections with dates as titles is not acceptable. Look at other, similar articles to see what an encyclopedic format looks like. 2) Make sure the sources identify the Islam religion (not just people/leaders who happen to be Muslim) as related to the violence 3) Some of the material may be better in the Islam and terrorism article. This article here Islam and violence is more of a top-level article (see WP:Summary style for more info). -- Noleander ( talk) 23:15, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
1) The dates ae prior to WW2, before the modern phenomenon of what we call now: "terror attacks" - came avout. the dates involve either Islamic movement with violence as a theme. 2) violence in the name of Islam like mentioning Islamic calls during the massacres, or Islamic massacres in a clear attempt to Islamize a region (like Moplah massacres). In any case, violence by a religous leader, by an ISLAMIC SUPREME BEING like the Mufti is already "Islamic." 3) I just added some of the material with a clear introduction of the 'holy war.' It ias all under that section. Also the
caliphate dimension to the terrorism section.
Barrasita (
talk) 04:02, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
Barrista: make sure the sources you use are "reliable" .. see WP:Reliable sources for details. Academic and scholarly works are best. If a particular issue is raised by a Christian source, that is okay, but in that case there should be a second, independent source that talks about it and refers to the Christian source. See WP:Secondary source for details. Please double-check your sources you recently used, it looks like many of them are not quite good enough. The material may be okay: but you need better sources. -- Noleander ( talk) 01:15, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
I am looking at the revision history, there's a lot of information removed, it only needs to be rewriten and improved. Blitzland ( talk) 16:15, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
I edited Barrasita's material, but removed 'deadlinks' and reference to faithfreedom.org as it might not be such a RS. As well as some items not so obvious related to violence derived from Islamic nature/spirit/text/ideas.
What I did reposted with alterations in formatting and adding the ISAM-ic natute includes: Muhammad's followers in Islam's early days acting for his honor/sake, Muslims using Islamic themes, Quranic text or/and ideas, mobilized forced conversions, attacks by Islamic religious athorities often explained with declaration of clear 'Islamic' goals, violence with a clear subjucation of Dhimmitude / infidels status, [regarding the massacres in early Islam in Spain, during frictions, Christians and Jews were dehumanized and referred to as apes and pigs, a Quranic inspired idea. [1]. Blitzland ( talk) 13:31, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
Thank you blitsland, now please search for suleika affair, i will leave it to you as you write better than me. cheers. Barrasita ( talk) 14:59, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
Word Usage
Caliph is translated from the Arabic Khalifa (خليفة ẖalīfä) meaning " successor", " substitute", or " lieutenant". It is used in the Qur'an to establish Adam's role as representative of Allah on earth. Kalifa is also used to describe the belief that man's role, in his real nature, is as khalifa or viceroy to Allah. [1] The word is also most commonly used for the Islamic leader of the Ummah; starting with Muhammad and his line of successors. http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Caliph Blitzland ( talk) 16:15, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
Al-Qaeda chiefs reveal world domination design (theage.com.au The Age 2005-08-24) [...] Phase five will be the point at which an Islamic state, or caliphate... http://www.theage.com.au/news/war-on-terror/alqaeda-chiefs-reveal-world-domination-design/2005/08/23/1124562861654.html
Obama has (also) linked Caliphate to Islamic terrorism (violence?) / goal. {from the text in the article):
The terrorists are at war with us... They kill man, woman and child; Christian and Hindu, Jew and Muslim. They seek to create a repressive caliphate. To defeat this enemy, we must understand who we are fighting against, and what we are fighting for. http://www.barackobama.com/2007/08/01/the_war_we_need_to_win.php
It is under "terrorism" section. Blitzland ( talk) 18:02, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
From the book: Islam and liberty: the historical misunderstanding G - Reference, Information and Interdisciplinary Subjects Series by Mohamed Charfi, Patrick Camiller. Published by Zed Books, 2005 ( ISBN 1842775111, 9781842775110):
In 1994 the Algerian Armed Islamist Group (GIA), which is well known for its radical positions and the barbaric violence of its operations, announced the restoration of the caliphate and the appointment of a caliph... http://books.google.com/books?id=lxxjHjiZo68C&pg=PA104
Times Online - July 27, 2008
A third of Muslim students back killings ALMOST a third of British Muslim students believe killing in the name of Islam can be justified, according to a poll... The research found that a third of Muslim students supported the creation of a world-wide caliphate or Islamic state. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article4407115.ece
From the book: Islam and liberty: the historical misunderstanding G - Reference, Information and Interdisciplinary Subjects Series by Mohamed Charfi, Patrick Camiller. Published by Zed Books, 2005 ( ISBN 1842775111, 9781842775110):
In 1994 the Algerian Armed Islamist Group (GIA), which is well known for its radical positions and the barbaric violence of its operations, announced the restoration of the caliphate and the appointment of a caliph... http://books.google.com/books?id=lxxjHjiZo68C&pg=PA104
From the book: Title The Theory and Practice of Islamic Terrorism: An Anthology
by Marvin Perry, Howard E. Negrin. Publisher Macmillan, 2008. (ISBN-9780230608641) Page 199
Make no mistake about it: They are sacrificing their men, women, and children for this goal of world domination. They are willing to bring about an Armageddon to conquer the world to Islam
From book History upside down: the roots of Palestinian fascism and the myth of Israeli aggression Brief encounters by David Meir-Levi. (Publisher Encounter Books, 2007
ISBN-9781594031922) pp. 39-40
Hamas... well known as a self-defined religious-apocalyptic terrorist group whose foundational documents preach genocide and world domination by the military and religious forces of Islam. In Arabic, Hamas means "Zeal." In Hebrew, Arabic's sister language, the same word means "violence." ..one Islamic religious Caliphate... http://books.google.com/books?id=1pLi3Cy8uQkC&pg=PA39
From book: Perspectives on violence and violent death Death, value, and meaning series by Robert G. Stevenson, Gerry R. Cox. Publisher Baywood Pub., 2007 ( ISBN 0895033135, 9780895033130, In its introduction: "This book examines violence. It looks at the nature and types of violence, the causes of violence, and the emotional wake left by violent episodes. In the twentieth century, the world experienced two world wars and countless other wars. Many millions died violent deaths from murder, death squads, purges, riots, revolutions, ethnic cleansing.")
From: pp. 83-4
Restore the Islamic Caliphate: The Caliphate refers to the restoration of the messengers of the Prophet ... as a response to perceived moral decay caused by Western political and social influences, the extremist components in both sects (Shia, Sunni) believe that a return to Islam and the Quran as the Word of God is the only way to revive Islamic civilization and combat the threat of foreign influence... [2] reasserting the goal of Muslim's to expel the foreign dominators and restore traditional Islamic order... "[Muslim] Brotherhood"... dedicated to reinstating the Caliphate [3]
(Note: Claiphate = Allah's rule on the earth, see at the beginning of this discusson) Book: Living with Terrorism by Steven C. King. Publisher AuthorHouse, 2007 ( ISBN 1434338436, 9781434338433). Page 109
Recruiting for Jihad... speaks about becoming a “Shaheed” (suicide bomber), and on its Jihad page states: “Islam also trains all those who volunteer for service to Allah before allowing them to undertake jihad (sic) and establish Allah's rule on the earth.' http://books.google.com/books?id=gud-BwjsQXEC&pg=PA109
Point is: I support it to be under 'Islamic terrorism' as a cause, derived from an Islamic concept (Allah's rule on earth). I wasn't suggesting that the entire concept of Caliphate is inherently violent. but as a motivation used by violent Al Qaeda and Hamas. Blitzland ( talk) 19:32, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
Blitzland/Barraista: The new material does not seem to have remedied the numerous defects identified above. I'd hate to revert it again, but you need so spend more time and remedy the shortcomings. Let me give a few examples:
This is the third time you have been told about these guidelines. Much of the material you are re-inserting for the third time without remedying the problems. Also, for the sources that are not available to other editors on-line, you may need to type-in some quotes from the source (here on the Talk page; or in a footnote) to help other editors understand if the material is appropriate or not. It looks like much of the material could be appropriate for the article, but you need to work on it more. If there was less material, I would volunteer to help fix it myself. Here is a suggestion: what if you just add the sections one at a time, and we can work together and fix them one one by one? -- Noleander ( talk) 14:52, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
This is about Islamic Holy wars!!! Islamic Inspired, or theme embbeded.
---
Holy wars in Islam from its early days till post WW2, 622-1946
all violence by Mufti's Jihad 1920-1943
(Also) often explained with declaration of clear 'Islamic' goals.
B) The grand Mufti (the highest religious authority in Islam dictating Islamic law and "who was given sole religious authority" [7]) waged a Jihad against the West and the Jews between 1920-1940. [8] especially a "holy war" against the Jews. [9] "Throughout his public career, the Mufti relied upon traditional Koranic anti-Jewish motifs to arouse the Arab street." [10] "Perhaps the longest-running jihad in today's world is the struggle to reclaim Israel for the Muslims... by the "highest ranking Islamic cleric." [11].
The Legacy of Islamic-Antisemitism pp. 46-47:
Various anti-dhimmi regulations became integral to the permanent “humiliation and wretchedness” prescribed for the Jews, specifically, by the Qur’anic curse of 2:61. Breaches of this regulatory pact (or “dhimma”) by Jews—whether real or perceived—could have disastrous consequences, including fully sanctioned jihad violence directed at them.
Blitzland ( talk) 15:35, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
What "other" blogs are you referring to (if usa-morocco is indeed a blog, it can be replaced, rest assured all their info is well-historically sourced here's one:
[18])?
Let me give you an example in English what do you think of the following:
<bockquote>They were coming, thousands and thousands, shouting 'Allahu Akbar! God is great! Let us attack them for the Arabs, let us offer a holocaust to Mohammad!
http://books.google.com/books?id=6bEwc2FStIYC&pg=PA125
Why do you need an Islamic text always to justify a link by you or me, If Islamists USE Islamic themese text and ideas in order to qualify for Islamic Holy Wars? I am not saying that Islam neccessarily orders to do all those things, I am no Imam, I am writing on Jihad, Islamic "holy wars." as perceived by those carrying out the deeds. Please look again at my explanation above why they are connected to Islamic inspired violence. [unsigned by Blitzland]
Dear Noleander, Do you prefer the dates to be formatted in bullets like this (example): *890 ? Blitzland ( talk) 21:37, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
From:
To
That will tighten up the text, and the boldface text will give the reader an idea what the paragraph is about. -- Noleander ( talk) 13:46, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Blitz/Bar: the citations are still wrong. I tried to check a few, and the FIRST one I tried was " Philippine gov't releases video of Abu Sayyaf atrocities | Asian Political News Newspaper | Find Articles at BNET". Philippine gov't releases video of Abu Sayyaf atrocities | Asian Political News Newspaper | Find Articles at BNET and it failed. Please review ALL the citations, and remove those that refer to blogs or minor web sites. -- Noleander ( talk) 13:46, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Noleander I appreciate that, and fixed that link, with subsituting BBC pages, I also removed Barrasita's item about the 1886 Petach Tikva attack, because I can't connect it (with sources) to the Mufti or/and Jihadism. Blitzland ( talk) 15:35, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
Shii: Did you want to propose a re-name for this article? If so, please do so on this Talk page. There is a lot of drama on WP, and the consensus process (especially for contentious articles) requires that we discuss significant changes. Thanks. -- Noleander ( talk) 18:25, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
Shii's added 'lead' is on top of the page, In the 'cuurent holy-war' section, The Ayatollah, Laskar Jihad etc. have been split in order to see clarity. Blitzland ( talk) 16:48, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
Not to overcomplicate the name issue, I was actually a bit misled by this name. It's known that by far most Muslim violence has been against other Muslims, such as inter-tribal and sectarian wars. The Sunni-Shia variety is happening on a major scale in Iraq once again. And of course we have the Taliban. The Iran-Iraq war killed around half a million. The list goes on. In any case, I was expecting this article to discuss Muslim violence against other Muslims, not just Jihad against Jews and Christians. -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 07:49, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
This article is incredibly biased. It speaks of world domination and antisemitism, but fails to point out the resentment Muslim youths feel towards the West because of the history of colonialism that has never ended. For example, the Grand Mufti used Islam to arouse youthful violence against Jews in WWII, but don't forget that Britain was occupying Palestine and force settling Jews on his home before his very eyes. Same with Iraq; it sided with Germany, but it was under British occupation after all, and it was only natural for Palestine and Iraq to do what they can to get independence. I'm sure you'll find that the Mufti wasn't the only one in WWII who went to extremities; there were massive civilians massacres on the part of the Allies too. The Mufti was just unique in doing so religiously, admittedly. However, religiously or not, you have to bear into mind the reasons that would drive him into doing those things, or more importantly, drive the hordes of others into supporting him.
Same with modern "world domination". Even among modern Mujahideen that is a very far fetched and rare concept. It's a dream they all have, but not all of them are willing to fight and go that far. You forget to mention how the United States toppled the democratic PM of Iran in 1953 (which caused the resentful Islamists to hold American hostages for 444 days in 1979 after deposing the repressive pro-American Shah), and helped Iraq against Iran in 1980-1988, and how Israel bombed Lebanon in 1982, and of course the good ole' Gulf War in 1991, and the sanctions that followed, plus all the spontaneous raids on Iraq, Libya, Sudan, Afghanistan, Yemen, and Pakistan on the part of America and its allies. You realize that these things help distort the way Muslims view non-Muslims, right? If you notice, all pre-1982 Arab terrorism was nationalistic and secular, not Muslim. It only gained an Islamic vibe after the 1982 war and the failure of Arab nationalist governments to act. While the bloodshed caused by Muslims and Christians in Lebanon was way harsher, the fact that Israel took advantage of the weakened state of the country, and used advanced weaponry on a defenseless republic did turn Muslim opinion against them. Furthermore, let us not forget how the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq only increased terrorism globally. That in itself tells you something; the more Muslims perceive that non-Muslims are grouping up against them, the more they will feel an urge to believe what the zealots tell them. I think that in itself would be worth mentioning in the article in order to avoid giving a biased outlook. Propaganda works really well if accompanied by pictures of dead Muslim children on TV. That should really be mentioned. Oh, and Saddam Hussein was a secular. Some Gulf jurists called him an infidel/apostate, and justified getting infidels (aka, Americans) to bomb him, so it really works both ways. You can say whatever you want in public; some people will always buy it. He only used Islam to gather support, and someone tells me even claimed descendence from Muhammad. Religious propaganda is commonly used as a tool for gathering support, nothing more. It should be noted that many so called Muslim extremists were actually the furthest people from Islam. These include him and Yasser Arafat. Not every Muslim terrorist is an Islamist. An Islamist one would install a Sharia law after succeeding, which is not what the Baath and Fatah had in mind. I am a Muslim, and I would understand about the mentality of other Muslims. I've tried confronting radicals before, and they'd always bring up what Jews did in Palestine, or what America did in Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, Sudan, etc. In short, every generation of wars breeds more radical Muslims. Now these radicals will confront the West in a new war, and the West's retaliation will be even harsher, and the Muslim world will witness even more atrocities, and resentment will only get higher. In short, it's never going to end at this rate.
As for Khaybar, that story is unreliable and will never be reliable. Do not preach as fact about Muhammad that which is not proven. Normally when Muslim tradition portrays something positively, the article says "according to Muslim tradition;" so why doesn't it say "according to said source" in this article? All we have is a biography written 150 years after his death. Its author, Ibn Ishaq, got that information from descendants of the Jews in question. Muhammad never killed the other two Jewish tribes, he just expelled them. Why would he exterminate the third? The Hadith, too, was compiled generations after Muhammad's life but it uses a Sanad, or a list of narrators starting from Muhammad himself down to the person telling the author of the Hadith compilation about said Hadith. Ibn Ishaq never bothered with checking the authenticity of the Sanad for liars, hypocrites, drunks, insane individuals, and other possible imperfections. The character background and the reputation history of the person narrating a Hadith is very important in order for the Muslim jurist to actually believe it is part of Islam. But since this article isn't a Muslim one, it should be at least worth mentioning that the first source that describes a genocide of Jews by Muhammad came at least 150 years after Muhammad's death.
UltimateDarkloid (
talk) 23:07, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
You said this: ""This article is incredibly biased. It speaks of world domination and antisemitism, but fails to point out the resentment Muslim youths feel towards the West because of the history of colonialism that has never ended."" I say: Pffft! You speak of colonialism as though Europeans are the first to do it! Muslims colonized all of North Africa and stole it from the Native Christian people there [and forced those Christians to convert], Muslims colonized the rest of the Middle East, Iran, Anatolia, and Central Asia aswell...Muslims ALSO tried to colonize Spain, Portugal, Southern Italy, Siciliy, and South Eastern Europe. So If anyone should be mad it is non-Muslims! Muslims were trying to conquer Europe for more than 1000 years after the death of Muhammad, it is only because of the technology revolution in Europe that the tables were turned, and Muslims got a taste of their own medicine for a change..
107.222.205.242 (
talk)
I have moved the coatrack of wars to the article on Jihad. My rationale was that this article was too long (205kb at its max) and since Jihad already had a coatrack and so that article was the most logical temporary place to park the one that used to be here. However, doing that made Jihad too long (171kb) so we need a longer term solution. I have made a proposal here. Please look at it and provide your feed back at Talk:Jihad.
-- Richard S ( talk) 17:43, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
User:Al-Andalusi has suggested that the article Qur'an and violence should either be merged to Jihad or renamed. Given that both Qur'an and violence and Jihad are very long, I don't think a merger is a good idea. However, I do think there is merit in the idea of renaming Qur'an and violence to Qur'an and jihad or Qur'an and war. Please take a look at the discussion at Talk:Qur'an and violence and provide your input. -- Richard S ( talk) 18:59, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
An editor rm a summary of Islam's early history. The summary lacked references but seemed accurate to me, so I restored it with links and citation requests. What is inaccurate about it? Student7 ( talk) 16:50, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
I think this article should follow Christianity and violence in content and structure: i.e. it should discuss Islamic attitudes towards violence, without listing every act of violence ever perpetrated by Muslims in the name of Islam. Most such acts can be covered under Islamic terrorism anyways. VR talk 02:06, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
It looks unfinished, obviously, but about the Islam and Domestic violence section: "The relationship between Islam and domestic violence is disputed". By who? Details? No discussion of how the concerns arose. These ideas are "vaguely justified with reference to the Qur'an". We're dealing with legitimate concerns about a discriminatory practice within factions of a religion and that sentence reads like a lazy dismissal. "Some of the scholars allowing "beating" stress that it is a last resort" - which scholars? What part of Islam? Phrasing reads like a vague justification for the practice, easily interpretable as a tacit acceptance of male-on-female authority. No exploration of its problematic nature. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.124.210.71 ( talk) 17:36, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
I agree that "Current holy wars" is a valid topic. Reviewing the section again, I find that some of the subsections are worth keeping (e.g. Ayatollah, Taliban, Wahhabists). However, the sections are badly written and include text that makes the subsection ramble. In general, the whole section just kind of mentions a bunch of "holy wars" without connecting them together in any overall framework. Are these holy wars related or not? Stepping back from the details and providing a discussion of how scholars view the current state of Islamic violence would be more valuable than this seemingly "random collection of facts". -- Pseudo-Richard ( talk) 16:15, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
I haven't digested all the changes yet, but under one subsection, "Western stereotypes", we have a bunch of nn editors with odd opinions. One reads "Juan Eduardo Campo writes that, "Europeans (have) viewed Islam in various ways: sometimes as a backward, violent religion; sometimes as an Arabian Nights fantasy;" Westerners regard Islam as an "Arabian Nights fantasy?" What? Who are these people? This is a bit of straw man fallacy, isn't it? We laugh at "Arabian Nights" analogy, and therefore people fearing Islam are also likely laughable, right? Student7 ( talk) 00:23, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
How about some notable scholars in this subsection? Why are they all unknown? Student7 ( talk) 00:23, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
Half the article was removed in June. I have my doubts over the correctness of the excisions, citing " Ibn Warraq not a RS" for hi own views.
Having said that the article needs structure, it is currently a bit of a disaster area, partly as a result of that edit, and a previous one which split the article, and partly because it is such a broad topic, covering thirteen centuries and religion, sociology, law, crime and punishment, and military history. For that reason it would probably be better reduced to an overview, linking to disparate articles.
Rich
Farmbrough, 12:01, 6 February 2012 (UTC).
I've added new material backed with reliable sources wherever needed. If any one takes issue with one of these inclusions please let me know here, before reverting the changes. But of course, you may rearrange the content freely.
Add this → "{{Talkback|Talk:Islam_and_violence|New addition|ts=~~~~~}}" template on my talk-page, if you're worried I'll not be quick to respond. I repeat, please do it before reverting/erasing my changes. I can prove that these are all legitimate and reliable sources. Brendon is here 08:46, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
"Early Gallup Poll data suggested that 6.5% of Muslims worldwide thought the 9/11 attacks were mostly justified, while 55.4% thought the attacks were not justified at all.[2] " This is actually an incorrect inference from the data, as the data sets were taken from 1-5, 1 being not justified at all and 5 being completely justifiable. The breakdown is as follows [1] 55.4 [2] 11.8 [3] 11.3 [4] 6.5 with a remained of 15% for [5] who believed the attacks were completely justifiable. Per the reference, "We defined "radicals" (as opposed to the "politically radicalized") as those who answered a "4" or a "5" to the 9/11 justification question, and compared this group to those who answered with a "1" or a "2" " -- this would mean, according to the source, 15+6.5=21.5% of those surveyed were "politically radicalized" and felt that the 9/11 attacks were mostly or completely justifiable. The 1-4 breakdown, in the source article, was an attempt to determine which respondents were "radicalized." This article on Islam and violence is wrong from the reference material and misleading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Freakdog ( talk • contribs) 01:58, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
"This article on Islam and violence is wrong from the reference material and misleading."? I deemed the initial premise of your observation as being worth examining carefully until you tacked on the second unsupported statement regarding the entire article as if it were a reliably supported fact. This is an article WP:TALK page, not a WP:SOAPBOX. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 05:38, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
I have reservations regarding the use of the 9/11 attacks as being central to the WP:TITLE. It may be an emotive subject for those in the US, but is WP:UNDUE for the lead. There is a section explicitly dedicated to the poll in the article, but the article is not "Islam and 9/11". It simply doesn't meet with WP:NPOV for the WP:LEAD. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 03:29, 20 November 2015 (UTC)The term "moderate" is more of a placeholder label than a value judgment. It is similar to calling one clustering in the data "group A" and another "group B." We simply used labels that a broad audience can easily understand and remember. Some have also asked how we can call someone a "radical" simply because they thought 9/11 was justified and actually had not *done* anything. The idea here is not that we are judging who or what a "moderate" or "radical" is, but rather assigning labels to statistical groups that we clearly define.
I'm happy with the poll in or out but not with a misleading presentation of the results Freakdog ( talk) 03:41, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
I concur. I don't believe that poll as properly represented adds additional value beyond what's already in that section. Be bold :) Freakdog ( talk) 17:06, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
Iryna Harpy sorry but which part of my edits are POV and why? Rupert Loup ( talk) 23:15, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
I notice that Islamic fanaticism now redirects to this article. Should this page redirect instead to Religious fanaticism#Islam?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jarble ( talk • contribs) 04:39, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
@ Iryna Harpy: I also noticed that History of Islamic fanaticism and Islamic extremist groups both redirect to Islamism. Jarble ( talk) 18:11, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
The articles are WP:CFORK, the two covers two different sides of the same topic. In my opinion they should be merged in one balanced article. Rupert Loup ( talk) 22:35, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
comment The proposal is based on a blurry thinking. Peace, violence , extremism, pacifism are completely different subjects. Therefore the corresponding "Islam" articles must be cleaned up to reflect exactly what they are about, with cross-referencing (since the topics are indeed interrelated) and minimizing duplication. If you don't understand the difference between the concepts peace, violence, extremism, pacifism, you are not qualified to discuss the subjects at all. Repeating FORK-FORK does not make it FORK. Staszek Lem ( talk) 22:58, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
Iryna Harpy and Staszek Lem, the discussion about Pacifism in Islam is now taking place here. Rupert Loup ( talk) 01:54, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Islam and violence's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "Leaman":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 22:09, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
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JG Estiot ( talk) 22:46, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
There is something seriously wrong with this article. It is titled "Islam and Violence" but yet does not wholly focus on what may or may not constitute violence in Islam.
In my opinion, we should first build a list of items that fall directly under the heading and not deviate into some kind of politically correct transgressions such as positives or negative perception of Islam because it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic. This is not an article about perception of Islam. This can be done separately.
I suggest the following items to be developed within the article (some are already there):
The above would be a good starting point. If the article is about Islam and Violence, let stick to the topic. Perhaps and for the sale of balance, it would be a good idea to start an article on "Islam and Peace" if it has not already been done. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jgestiot ( talk • contribs)
This article is basically a list of Islamic topics that deal with "violence": Islam and war, Islam and domestic violence, Islamic criminal jurisprudence and Pacifism in Islam. There is no content in this article that would be unique to Islam and violence. In fact, this article appears to be hodge podge of topics. It's best that it be used as a Disambig page pointing to articles mentioned above. Bless sins ( talk) 01:42, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
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Magaard's essay on this topic was published in an academic volume, and we can reflect that source here. However, she's an economist and not an established expert on this topic, so we need to exercise some caution about how we handle statements that come from her interviews and not academic publications. On the other hand, there's no indication that 10news.one is a RS, so we can't use any statements that come from it at all. I'll replace that citation with the original JP article (which, as far as I can tell, doesn't mention her colleagues). The citation for the book was also wrong. Eperoton ( talk) 01:24, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
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Jihad is made to ensure that the Islamic religion is safe and secure from any intrusion.-- Abdullah Alyahya ( talk) 19:20, 10 December 2017 (UTC) Some people are confusing terrorists with Islam because some followers of the region may be engaging themselves in terror activities (Ihsan). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abdullah Alyahya ( talk • contribs) 19:21, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
In this subsection, I would like to utilize another study that compares how media cover terrorist attacks performed by Muslims and non-Muslims in the U.S. This is very critical in understanding how media attract public support in order to create a "war for Islam" or portray Islam and Muslims as the actors on "War on America" [1]. Seda gedik ( talk) 03:09, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
References
I noticed to someone totally changed section of pacifism in islam without any explanation. I put back old content, what is sourced and seems balanced. Also I presented one additional source https://www.bbc.com/bitesize/guides/zfnv87h/revision/7 and there is noted to "most Muslims are not pacifists. This is because the teachings in the Qur'an and Hadith allow for wars to be fought if they can be justified". Quaran and Hadith are normative content and esence of Islam and if according to them wars are acceptable there cant be talk about pacifism. And that is shared by majority and it is majority view of muslims. Movements what linked pacifism to Islam are right now small minority. I am sorry but currently that is how facts are. 109.93.186.50 ( talk) 08:55, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
Giving to much weight to movements or "schools of thought" what are minority and some can be called fringe or to just some individual examples (note it is talk about whole religion not individuals or individual acts or so) without note about majority view is wrong. Facts are facts. And facts are: 1. In Islam most of Muslims are not pacifist. BBC source. 2. Quaran and Hadith allow wars to be fought. That is normative tradition. Main in Islam, essence. Sourced. 3. Movements who linked/link pacifism with Islam are small minority and some of them are / not considered Muslim by most of Muslims or really minor. E.g ahmadiyya movement and some of sufi orders. 4. Even Ahmadiyya Muslims accept violence as the last option only to be used to protect religion and one's own life in extreme situations of persecution, again not pacifism. 5. Self defence is not pacifism. 6. Nonviolence is not pacifism. 7. Personal oponions can't lead to rewriting fact about history of numerous wars, defensive and offensive, majority views, traditions, texts, sources etc etc. In content what I put back is note about movements, note about history, note about legitimate self defence note about when fighiting stop according to Quran and all sourced good according to fact and balanced. 109.93.186.50 ( talk) 15:28, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
"Fight in the Way of God against those who fight you, but do not go beyond the limits. God does not love those who go beyond the limits." Surah-Al-Baqarah, the second chapter of the Quran. Beauty School Dropout ( talk) 18:36, 19 July 2019 (UTC) There is a long and documented history of pacifism within Islam. Beauty School Dropout ( talk) 18:36, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
178.221.118.83 ( talk) 02:21, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
This is rather short, so - in the "Statistics" section, should it not mention that the definition of "violent crime" et al. varies between countries? Perhaps most pertinently, if one reads the article on domestic violence in islam, or in general, violence against women in islam, it would seem that the statistics and/or consensus there is that there is clearly more domestic violence against women in muslim-majority countries - by a rather wide margin - than in other countries. So, just saying that "hey, there is less murder in muslim-majority countries" and focusing so heavily on that in the lead-in of the section, seems rather misleading, in a section in an article called "Islam and violence", doesn't it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:9B1:8826:0:98:128:186:119 ( talk) 23:51, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
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Need help from someone who can check the recent changes and make a decision or take action, if necessary. Currently, there is a revert war going on for keeping a longstanding version of the article where every heading and sub-headings are placed randomly. I believe, version 1160797188 is better and the one that has a flow based on the introduction paragraph. The current version is all over the place, an obvious one would be placing Quran as a type of violence, while it's a religious text, and as the introduction paragraph mentions a religious background. Need intervention to stop vandalism based on statements that probably doesn't have anything to do with Wikipedia policy. 2605:B100:D20:5AEF:3A88:B0D1:7F58:23E6 ( talk) 17:29, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
We have prose about a a software developer (not a religious expert) comparing the old Testament to the Quran. It ends with this quote - "Anderson states that: "I must also reemphasize that this analysis is superficial and the findings are by no means intended to be conclusive."
Why would we put in arbitrary shallow analysis from nonexperts? 99.33.184.99 ( talk) 13:27, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
Provided sources are mostly at least 10 years old, some of them over 20 years. This can not reflect recent data and is thus misleading.
Moreover, I do not see in which way a text analysis comparison of the Quran and the Bible contributes to the topic. Violence of religious people is not attributable to word-frequency in holy books. This paragraph insinuates that the bible is more violent than the Quran - but what is the conclusion? At the same time the word "love" appears more often in the Bible than in Quran - what does this say us? Answer: Nothing. Therefore I propose the deletion of this paragraph. Abba1200 ( talk) 19:45, 28 November 2023 (UTC)