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Frequently asked questions Q1: Why does this article define homosexuality as "romantic attraction, sexual attraction, or sexual behavior between members of the same sex or gender"?
A1: Because that is how high-quality
reliable sources define it. |
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![]() | Homosexuality was one of the Social sciences and society good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||||||||||
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![]() | Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute. |
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The discrimination section claims that "Negative stereotypes characterize LGB people as less romantically stable and more likely to abuse children, but there is no scientific basis to such assertions.", however this claim is not accompanied by a source. I've seen people show data relating child abuse or pedophilia to homosexuality, and I believe that a source would help make this claim more sound. Aimarekin ( talk) 01:49, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
There is an extremely obvious consensus against the starting user’s interpretation here
Dronebogus (
talk)
22:57, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
|
---|
There seems to be a clear overwhelming scholarly consensus that homosexuality is exclusive to sex (including by the APA, which contradicts the message planted in the "edit" section). Gender is irrelevant when coming to the determination of whether someone or something is homosexual or not. Words have definitions, let us use them correctly. Homosexuality refers to same-sex attraction only. Including sources from several major dictionaries and scholarly articles below.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/homosexuality
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/homosexual
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/homosexual
https://dictionary.apa.org/homosexuality
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/homosexual
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/homosexuality/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/biochemistry-genetics-and-molecular-biology/homosexuality
https://study.com/learn/lesson/homosexuality-concept-history.html BUZZLIGHTYEAR99 ( talk) 20:53, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
|
We’re getting incessant redundant requests complaining about the definition including gender. Therefore a FAQ is in order. It should obviously include “why does it describe the sex/gender thing etc.” (in more formal terminology of course) but what should the answer be? Dronebogus ( talk) 23:15, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
3a. gen. Males or females viewed as a group; = sex n.1 1. Also: the property or fact of belonging to one of these groups.
Originally extended from the grammatical use at sense 1 (sometimes humorously), as also in Anglo-Norman and Old French. In the 20th cent., as sex came increasingly to mean sexual intercourse (see sex n.1 4b), gender began to replace it (in early use euphemistically) as the usual word for the biological grouping of males and females. It is now often merged with or coloured by sense 3b.
3b. Psychology and Sociology (originally U.S.). The state of being male or female as expressed by social or cultural distinctions and differences, rather than biological ones; the collective attributes or traits associated with a particular sex, or determined as a result of one's sex. Also: a (male or female) group characterized in this way.
Homosexuality is romantic attraction, sexual attraction, or sexual behavior between members of the same sex or gender.and has 3 different references for including both words. I don't think that the RECENT politicisation of trans people (personal declarations notwithstanding) is something that needs reflection in the lead. I do fear that wording an FAQ item or hatnote for this talk page would end up being no less controversial, however. — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk) 11:17, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
Currently, the history section reads: "Some scholars argue that the term "homosexuality" is problematic when applied to ancient cultures since, for example, neither Greeks or Romans possessed any one word covering the same semantic range as the modern concept of "homosexuality""
This seems incorrect. Bailey writes: "The historian John Boswell documented the existence of obviously heterosexual or homosexual characters in Greek literature.... The Romans, just a few centuries later, had a word to describe feminine, exclusively homosexual men: cinaedi" p. 128. So, the citing of social constructionists probably needs revision. Zenomonoz ( talk) 05:56, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
possessed any one word covering the same semantic range. Many suffragettes fought to outlaw drag in theatres. That does not mean they had the concept of TERFs at the start of the last century. The point of the sentence is important: The modern homo/hetero dichotomy is not universal in the historical record, and many (perhaps most) ancient and classical cultures would be baffled by our current classifications. I believe that the sources clearly support the current phrasing. Cheers, Last1in ( talk) 00:08, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Octanvui – this is improper. Wikipedia is based upon secondary sources, not primary source studies. You've also inserted your own improper conclusions from a GWAS study.
A modest 'genetic' influence on a trait is irrelevant to the cause. It does not prove the influence of social environment or nurture, as you assert. For example, the genetic influence on left handedness is low, but we know the environmental influence on left handedness is due to non-social mechanisms, such as hormones in the womb, or randomness in how the brain grows.
As the Bailey review clarifies, the non-social environment is the important part here, especially for males.
Examples of non-social environment include the prenatal hormones that differentiate male and female brains, as well as maternal immune responses which have been implicated. Alternatively, things might be trace back to an an entirely different biological mechanism outside of genes interacting with prenatal hormones. Zenomonoz ( talk) 07:14, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Homosexuality article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
Index,
1,
2,
3,
4,
5,
6,
7,
8,
9,
10,
11,
12,
13,
14,
15,
16,
17,
18,
19,
20,
21,
22,
23,
24,
25Auto-archiving period: 30 days
![]() |
Frequently asked questions Q1: Why does this article define homosexuality as "romantic attraction, sexual attraction, or sexual behavior between members of the same sex or gender"?
A1: Because that is how high-quality
reliable sources define it. |
![]() | Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments, look in the archives, and review the FAQ before commenting. |
![]() | Homosexuality was one of the Social sciences and society good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute. |
![]() | This page is not a forum for general discussion about Homosexuality. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Homosexuality at the Reference desk. |
![]() | This topic contains controversial issues, some of which have reached a consensus for approach and neutrality, and some of which may be disputed. Before making any potentially controversial changes to the article, please carefully read the discussion-page dialogue to see if the issue has been raised before, and ensure that your edit meets all of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Please also ensure you use an accurate and concise edit summary. |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The discrimination section claims that "Negative stereotypes characterize LGB people as less romantically stable and more likely to abuse children, but there is no scientific basis to such assertions.", however this claim is not accompanied by a source. I've seen people show data relating child abuse or pedophilia to homosexuality, and I believe that a source would help make this claim more sound. Aimarekin ( talk) 01:49, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
There is an extremely obvious consensus against the starting user’s interpretation here
Dronebogus (
talk)
22:57, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
|
---|
There seems to be a clear overwhelming scholarly consensus that homosexuality is exclusive to sex (including by the APA, which contradicts the message planted in the "edit" section). Gender is irrelevant when coming to the determination of whether someone or something is homosexual or not. Words have definitions, let us use them correctly. Homosexuality refers to same-sex attraction only. Including sources from several major dictionaries and scholarly articles below.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/homosexuality
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/homosexual
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/homosexual
https://dictionary.apa.org/homosexuality
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/homosexual
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/homosexuality/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/biochemistry-genetics-and-molecular-biology/homosexuality
https://study.com/learn/lesson/homosexuality-concept-history.html BUZZLIGHTYEAR99 ( talk) 20:53, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
|
We’re getting incessant redundant requests complaining about the definition including gender. Therefore a FAQ is in order. It should obviously include “why does it describe the sex/gender thing etc.” (in more formal terminology of course) but what should the answer be? Dronebogus ( talk) 23:15, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
3a. gen. Males or females viewed as a group; = sex n.1 1. Also: the property or fact of belonging to one of these groups.
Originally extended from the grammatical use at sense 1 (sometimes humorously), as also in Anglo-Norman and Old French. In the 20th cent., as sex came increasingly to mean sexual intercourse (see sex n.1 4b), gender began to replace it (in early use euphemistically) as the usual word for the biological grouping of males and females. It is now often merged with or coloured by sense 3b.
3b. Psychology and Sociology (originally U.S.). The state of being male or female as expressed by social or cultural distinctions and differences, rather than biological ones; the collective attributes or traits associated with a particular sex, or determined as a result of one's sex. Also: a (male or female) group characterized in this way.
Homosexuality is romantic attraction, sexual attraction, or sexual behavior between members of the same sex or gender.and has 3 different references for including both words. I don't think that the RECENT politicisation of trans people (personal declarations notwithstanding) is something that needs reflection in the lead. I do fear that wording an FAQ item or hatnote for this talk page would end up being no less controversial, however. — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk) 11:17, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
Currently, the history section reads: "Some scholars argue that the term "homosexuality" is problematic when applied to ancient cultures since, for example, neither Greeks or Romans possessed any one word covering the same semantic range as the modern concept of "homosexuality""
This seems incorrect. Bailey writes: "The historian John Boswell documented the existence of obviously heterosexual or homosexual characters in Greek literature.... The Romans, just a few centuries later, had a word to describe feminine, exclusively homosexual men: cinaedi" p. 128. So, the citing of social constructionists probably needs revision. Zenomonoz ( talk) 05:56, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
possessed any one word covering the same semantic range. Many suffragettes fought to outlaw drag in theatres. That does not mean they had the concept of TERFs at the start of the last century. The point of the sentence is important: The modern homo/hetero dichotomy is not universal in the historical record, and many (perhaps most) ancient and classical cultures would be baffled by our current classifications. I believe that the sources clearly support the current phrasing. Cheers, Last1in ( talk) 00:08, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Octanvui – this is improper. Wikipedia is based upon secondary sources, not primary source studies. You've also inserted your own improper conclusions from a GWAS study.
A modest 'genetic' influence on a trait is irrelevant to the cause. It does not prove the influence of social environment or nurture, as you assert. For example, the genetic influence on left handedness is low, but we know the environmental influence on left handedness is due to non-social mechanisms, such as hormones in the womb, or randomness in how the brain grows.
As the Bailey review clarifies, the non-social environment is the important part here, especially for males.
Examples of non-social environment include the prenatal hormones that differentiate male and female brains, as well as maternal immune responses which have been implicated. Alternatively, things might be trace back to an an entirely different biological mechanism outside of genes interacting with prenatal hormones. Zenomonoz ( talk) 07:14, 11 April 2024 (UTC)