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Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
This archive page covers approximately the dates between April 2006 and July2006.
Post replies to the main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary.
Please add new archivals to Talk:Batman/Archive06. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. -- Ipstenu ( talk| contribs) 20:59, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Does the Scarecrow knows Batman's true identity? I got that form an article here, somewhere on wikipedia.-- T-man, the wise 07:47, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
I started a Christopher York article, if he is such a great author he should have an article, so that we can finally know how is he such a good reference.-- T-man, the wise 10:07, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Where is the Bio of B:TAS Batman???-- T-man, the wise 10:12, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Done. The article is all Summary style. You can add or remove info from the sections here to meet your taste. This way we can help this article be more organized and at the same time more informative through sub-articles.
We still need to decide how are we going to expand and connect the Animated Series Batman to this article.-- T-man, the wise 05:11, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Moving on to new and more important things... Superman is now 35kb, while Batman is 49 kb. Further ideas on reduction? Dyslexic agnostic 08:10, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
You didn't say anythig about Superman, just check it out, that's the format I'm following. The ironic thing is that its current format DA's idea and my work months ago when he was kind of a coherent editor. (An annoying mindless one track mind nazi eraser calling himself minimalist, one could say, but at least he was coherent then).-- T-man, the wise 11:31, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Also, what was the point of this link WP:NOT you put? How is it related to this discussion? And BTW, I'm responsible for about 30% of the current format of Enemies of Batman. Friends of Batman should be as symilar to that article as the Batman article should be to Superman. this should be a 35k article.-- T-man, the wise 11:39, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Face it, T-man, your edits don't have consensus. CovenantD 16:00, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
I suspect that "T-man" is fairly young and still working on his writing skills -- and does not appear to be a native-english speaker -- so I encourage everyone to have a certain amount patience as he continues to gain experience at editing Wikipedia.
That said: I concur with the sentiments above. The recent edits to Batman and Batman: The Animated Series, as well as the creation of the redundent Batman (animated) article, have not improved the material. The material concerned with continuity sounds fanish, and innaproriate for a mature article. Additionally, I oppose any changes that strip down the material in a manner that creates lists or overly-segmented subheadings (such as the "friends" and "tools" sections in B:tAS) that disrupt the flow of the prose in the articles. These articles should be sophisticated, not fanish or read like RPG stats. ~CS 17:34, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
In my opinion we don't need separate articles. Wiki articles focus on fictional characters in both story and real world terms, so an overview of the character's evolution should remain in the main page. However, the focus should be on the current canonical version above all, so for example we shouldn't have a listing of all his relatives in every single iteration of the character. WesleyDodds 22:26, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Check other superhero articles and then come back and read Batman again. Notice how by adding so much non-cannonical material, you dont get a flowing biography. As it is right now, you read 2 outdated versions before you get to the modern version. If you want to know what's going on with current Batman, you have to ignore about 40% of the article. And then, you have a humongous section talking about speculations of him being gay. If you are a comediant that's gold, and it's a great thing it exists, info should never be eliminated, but that's another article. An article about a detail of Batman, a detail about how there is a history of comparisons between gay people and Batman style of life, pointing how easy is it to find them similar.
So you wanted a bio and you got, a killer Batman that got married to Catwoman, had a daughter and got killed at 50 by Hugo Strange; a lame one that chased Killer Moth in the museum of the world's biggest bug-traps and insecticides, even during working hours along with Alfred, Bat-mite, Ace, Robin, Batwoman, her niece Batgirl, Several uncles and aunts and a Chief O'Hara; a Bat-fruit sodomizing Robin; and finally some sections about the current one you wanted under the tittle "Modern Batman".
I say we define current batman, with his current powers, equipment and characters as a solid thing, then we gather the non-cannonical sections in a single one, something like "Batman over the Years", introducing readers to the concept of different continuities, diferent ages, conception of the character and the Crisis on the Infinite Earths.
About the Batman: TAS changes. It was the same concept there. There was a lot of sections with random info (forbiden character, especial characters, etc) about production details and no info detailing what the series is about. There was no Batman bio there. Again check other heroes, there is always a regular bio and then a mini bio about the animated version ( John Stewart, Hawkgirl, Flash, Darkseid, etc). How come, if batman is the main DCAU character he has no animated bio!!!!!!!!!! that's stupid. It's a DUHHHHH thing to change. I agree, that bio can be later merged, but where? Here? where is already to crowded and editors don't care much for that version. Or maybe in the Batman TAS page? Then again, it's a page about a show, not about a character.
It maybe confuses you the fact that my changes are rather raw, but I already spend too much time here, and this is a comunity work. I view other editors as a team, I won't built a castle alone, design is my thing, and it's all about shape. This is an article about what? We have a size to respect. Not because of memory space, but because it must be easy to read. We must avoid crowding the reader with info, and at the same time make sure Wikipedia has all the info there can be. The Batman article is a directory containing several files, including one called Batman.-- T-man, the wise 00:39, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
As CS said above, "Batman's a fictional character, and therefore the approach the article(s) should take is an academic and historical one." With that in mind, why do I not see any section on the influences and origins that led to Batman, e.g., Zorro, The Shadow, etc.?
Isn't it way more important to discuss how Batman is an old kind of hero that predates superheroes, and how he was based on the noirish pulp fiction of the '20s and '30s, than it is to list trivial information on alternate-universe Batmen? -- 69.177.118.70 16:08, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, I know some of the story, anyway. I'll get a section started; I'm sure others will have lots to add (or correct). I'll also have to refresh my memory with my reference book at home at some point, so the key words for now are "rough draft". -- Iritscen 13:11, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. By the way, the IP post above was me before I registered, but you probably guessed that. All right, the initial version is up.
Possible issues:
I still find these two sentences to be confusing: "It is retroactively established within the pages the 2006 limited series Infinite Crisis (after a character from the pre-1964 era is transferred to a re-created Earth-Two) that the pre-1964 Silver Age stories happen on Earth-Two, despite the fact that the year 1964 was well into the Silver Age (and therefore years after the supposed retirement of the Earth-Two Batman), and that the characters and creative concepts which remain post-1964 aren't given new origin stories."
"The characters also seem to recall their pre-1964 adventures, and the version of Batman which is established as living on Earth-One has been having adventures with Superman, the Justice League of America, and other heroes since well before 1964."
Ipstenu, you beat me to that comment...I provide more information below yours for context. -- Ace ETP 04:02, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I blame SuperBoy-Prime. No, seriously. I think it's trying to say 'Since per-1964/Silver Age characters were transported to Earth-2 during the recreaction of the Multiverse in Infinite Crisis, it has been established that Earth-2 was their home earth. This is, however contradictory as Batman of Earth-1 has many memories of events that take place in the Silver Age, and has been noted to have had adventures with Superman, the Justice League of America, and other heroes since well before the end of the Silver Age.' In essence, Bats is sort of straddling both pre and post crisis 'rules'. -- Ipstenu ( talk| contribs) 03:33, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
One thing we first need to realize is that the Crisis on Infinite Earths was an historic fraud perpetrated on DC fandom - a ludicrous, quite tasteless, poorly written, poorly conceived "answer" to problems that did not exist.
We can take what writers of this travesty claimed, and what following authors who mistakenly refused to realize that Crisis was a bad accident claimed -
and then we can look at the historical record.
Go ahead and argue with me about what is and is not "canonical". I don't care.
When DC comics destroyed the canon that I had enjoyed and read for two and a half whole entire \ decades prior to "Crisis", I stopped reading anything related to the new universe that rejected my treasured memories, destroyed my favorite tales and in essence was a statement by the new DC that me, and older fans like me, could all go to Hades and read something else.
Whatever the new DC may now claim, the timeline was well established prior to "Crisis".
The first, original Batwoman was introduced in July 1956. In 1964, Schwartz stopped using her - but this VERY SAME CHARACTER popped up again to team up with Earth 1's Barbara Gordon and she was executed by the League of Assassins on Earth-1 in 1979. She even appeared in JLA.
She therefore was NOT of Earth-2, but of Earth-1. If she has been retroactively assigned to Earth-2, this in no way changes the fact that she had appeared on Earth-1 prior to Crisis, and died on Earth-1 prior to Crisis. So, go ahead - tell me she's of Earth-2. I'll tell you to poop in your shoes.
There was a Batwoman of Earth-2 prior to Crisis, but that Batwoman never knew the Bronze Tiger. She surely was older than Earth-1's Batwoman, but her tales were not chronicled until after that Earth's Batman married that Earth's Catwoman. We first saw this Earth-2 Batwoman in a Brave and the Bold comic from 1982 ("Interlude on Earth-2"). She was teamed with Earth-2's Robin, who continued as Robin after the death of Earth-2's Batman, and also the Starman. Earth-1's Batman was transported there by Hugo Strange's manipulation of Starman's star-wand. Of HER history, we know little beyond how she donned costume prior to the wedding of Earth-2 Batman and Earth-2 Catwoman to foil a plot by the Earth-2 Scarecrow.
The mushroom-induced Bat-Mite appeared during the transcript of some writer's deranged drug trip in May 1959. Schwartz wisely stopped using this character, too - but again THIS VERY SAME CHARACTER Mr. Mxyzptlk in World's Finest comic strips in 1965 and 1967. Note the spelling - this was on Earth-1.
The first and original Batgirl, introduced in 1961, was the niece of the first and original Batwoman, and therefore must have been of Earth-1. Reinforcing her Earth-1 origins, she later appeared in the tales of Teen Titans West. The Robin with whom she flirted was a boy - not a grown man such as he who teamed with the Huntress on Earth-2 against Earth-2's Joker.
When I was a DC comics fan, established canon was that Earth-2's Batman retired before the Bathound was introduced.
Of course, as I noted, DC flipped all of us older fans the bird and unfortunately was NOT bankrupted as a result. More's the pity.
Now we have had, for twenty years, a DC universe that is telling me that all my favorite characters never existed and all of my favorite tales never happened. Even worse, it's telling me the brilliant new tales (well, new then and over twenty years old now) penned by Roy Thomas never happened - a cardinal sin. I never shall understand why Roy played such a lusty role erasing the beautifully scripted storylines he had just created.
None of this changes the facts about Batwoman's role in the Batman series. She, Batman and Robin were battling Earth-1 villains: Clayface, the Catman, Earth-1's Lex Luthor, Killer Moth and the Firefly. In World's Finest, 1957, Batwoman was involved in a story that made mention of "Jor-El"
Batwoman's obvious Earth-1 affiliation was decidedly made clear in Batman Family #17, published in 1978.
The Huntress, Helena Wayne of Earth-2, traveled to Earth-1 and interviewed Earth-1's Batman while seeking the counsel of established super-heroines. Earth-1's Batman referred her to Earth-1's Batwoman.
So, there you go folks - DC can try to put the genie back in the bottle, but these stories were written and people like me read them.
Currently, Batman is listed as a fictional atheist, along with several others. Personally, I don't care in either regard, but I'm concerned with the lack of any proof or statements to support the position. --AWF
Yeh, he has met super dudes like that angel that joined the league for a while, Etrigan, the Spectre, and many others. After that I don't think its a matter of faith for Batman, he just know there is a celestial order, because he happens to know some of the celestial beings. That kind of thoughts always cross my mind when I read comics involving Greek gods a and celestial beings, in DC Universe, you just know there is a god---Zauriel!! I think that's the name of the angel. I mean with angels and demons in the public eye you don't keed faith you just know.-- T-man, the wise 20:02, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
So long as we're not saying 'He believes in hell so he must be <insert religion>' I think that's fair. You can say you're going to hell without actually beilving it, but in this case, I think we need more proof that Bats is an atheiest (negative proof proves nothing). -- Ipstenu ( talk| contribs) 03:36, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I think relegion is more an application of faith, whereas Bruce takes certain things as fact. he doesnt have to be a Christian and have faith that there is an afterlife; he knows this for certain. My thoughts are, when you carry such definable knowledge of subjects, certain componants of faith and certianly relegious dogma become totally irrelevant. Therefore it would be a mis-service to label Bruce in terms of any relegious or anti-relegious methodology. Violet Grey 15:11, 8 June 2006
I don't think this belong here, and it think it lowers the article's quality. -- Chris Griswold 13:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
The article assumes that the modern interpretation of Batman began with "Year One". Thing is, it didn't. The Post-Crisis Batman's adventures began with Batman #401, and even then he made a prior appearence in the Man of Steel miniseries. So what should we do? WesleyDodds 05:25, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I removed the following section from 'Supporting characters' and I think it should go back in but I don't know where. Help?
It's useful information but it felt like more than just a toss in supporting chars -- Ipstenu ( talk| contribs) 00:41, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
How about here? Batman#Persona CovenantD 00:44, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Why do people keep removing this? It's relevant information. If you take anything, make it the beginning of this, but keep the description of Spoiler's death in! CmdrClow 08:15, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
I made an edit because after viewing the Barbara Walters interview, I think it can be clearly seen that Clooney was joking about the Batman being gay after being asked if he would play a gay cowboy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx3IjSXOt8c&search=barbara%20walters So I changed it from Clooney "said" to Clooney "joked". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hokgwai ( talk • contribs) .
What I'm saying is, Clooney was saying it in a very lighthearted and humorous matter. It's really not something to be taken as so concrete and serious. He did not mean to portray a homosexual character; he just ended up making it that way and it's simply a humorous and somewhat regretful retrospect for him. He has stated on several occassions that he was "a big fan" as a kid, so you can honestly imagine him truly attempting to play a homosexual Batman? Neither Clooney, Kilmer, nor O'Donnel were actually trying to play homosexuals; they all have relationships with, and kiss, women for crying out loud. And as I said, this is obviously causing a lot of misinterpretation by fans. If you refuse to leave the piece out, I would just like to at least edit it a bit with a words like "allegidly." That's not asking a lot, and I'm just trying to be reasonable. When you see enough of Clooney's interviews, you know when not to take him so seriously as to report it to the world as a bold, serious statement. -- Caleson 13 June 2006
I don't think we need to be glib. If we look at the difference in Clooney's demeanor when he is talking about his investigative trip to Dafar (which was undeniably serious) and his comment about how he played Batman (to which Barbara Walters responded to with laughter, because she knew he was joking after asking him a serious question about Brokeback Mountain), I think we can all see that Clooney was not making a serious comment about his portrayal of Batman. Barbara Walters asked him a direct question (joking or not) "George, is Batman gay?" To which he responded, "No, but I made him gay." With all due respect, I am changing it back to "Clooney joked -- User:Hokgwai 8:20, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
-- User:Caleson 1 July 2006
As per the Batman FARC, I have tried to deal with the Trivia section. I ended up deleting most of it, but was able to keep the bit about the source of Bruce Wayne's name; however, I think that the item about Forbes Mag's comparison of Bruce Wayne's wealth is interesting. Unfortunately, I do not know where it should go. -- Chris Griswold 17:13, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
What about combining Infinite Crisis and 52's sections into one? They're both very short, and pretty much the point of 52 is 'a world without Batman' so we shouldn't expect to see him... -- Ipstenu ( talk| contribs) 18:49, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Could someone explain where the section evolution of the character has gone from either this article or History of Batman? It's purportedly merged back here but I can't seem to find it. Hiding Talk 20:27, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
With all of the new edits going on, a lot of people are incorrectly changing the tense. When it comes to the story elements, you should write those in present tense. Yes, "four teenagers serve as Robin" is correct. This is a work of fiction. -- Chris Griswold 21:18, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Okay! English-major hat on! Chris Griswold is absolutely, 100% correct that works of fiction should be written about in the present tense. The conceit is that a work of fiction is not intended to relate past events, but unfolds as we are reading. Even when the author makes a creative decision to write in the past tense (It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, It was the summer of 1923) for the reader, the events are still taking place as we read. The question here is the relationship between the reader and the text: the relationship is immediate, not vicarious. We're writing about works of literature which are perpetually present, not about real people or events that actually took place in the past.
That said, the serial nature of comics adds a difficult element to this: because the events of the story take place over so much time -- both in the reader's world and in the internal continuity of the stories -- sometimes the present tense is imperfect for expressing ideas accurately. The best way to handle this is to write around the problem -- as I see Ipstenu has taken a stab at in the questionable sentence. Since this sentence is still unclear, I've given a try to write around the problem from a different approach. My sentence is also imperfect, however, and it may be necessary to return the sentence to its original past-tense form if no satisfactory write-around is found. While I would object strongly to revising the majority of the article to past-tense, I believe the English language is pliable in this regard, and we can skirt rules in instances where it makes the sentence more clear. ~CS 19:55, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Then, at 17, Dick leaves the mantle of Robin and becomes Nightwing. Jason Todd, about 14 or 15, becomes the next Robin and dies within the year (Batman says in one Batman that Jason died after nine months of being Robin, this is after the reboot and the Crisis On Infinite Earths. This would leave Batman at about 31. Now, shortly afterwards, 12-year old Tim Drake takes up the role of Robin, and a year or two later, Batman: No Man's Land happens over the course of a year. Another year later, Tim is now 15, Bruce is now 33, the Batman: Hush story arc begins over the course of a few months.
During the new part of the year, the Infinite Crisis happens, the Battle of Metropolis results in Superboy's death, and Jason Todd, now 18 or 19, comes back as the Red Hood. Fast foward one year later, Batman is now 34 or 35 (just about right), Tim Drake is around 16 to 17, and Dick Grayson is now about 21-23. It all adds up.
Overall, Batman is definitely early to mid thirties, and that's the oldest he'll get! Look at Superman, he has always been aged around 30, and he'll never get older! The movies Superman: The Movie and Superman Returns prove this by showing him in his late twenties, just around that right age. Psst, I heard that a later One Year Later story is gonna have Batman and Robin get doused in some youth restorative of Ra's al Ghul's, bringing them back five years younger. Tim, around 17, would probably become 11 or 12, and Batman would be brought back to his late twenties! Thank goodness for the slowing of aging, or Batman would be walking around with a cane! -- Jonathan.Bruce 07:32, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
I didn't see this mentioned in the article, so thought I'd throw it out there. In one of the Justice League episodes (I believe in the "Wild Cards" episode) it shows a brief display of Batman's height at 6'3" and weight at 240 lbs. Have fun. -- Alsayid 06:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I have just got rid of the whole paragraph talking about him being gay. I don't care if I get blocked from editing. I just don't think it's fair that the second main DC hero is being ruined like this.-- Mr.Nobody 19:04, 13 June 2006 (UTC)Mr.Nobody
On the thing that talks about Batman being gay why don't you just remove some?
Batman, both as a superhero and in his identity as Bruce Wayne, has been portrayed throughout his years in comics and other media as not only heterosexual, but also as having enjoyed a high number of romantic and/or sexual relationships with women, and his encounters with his female adversaries have also occasionally used sexual tension to add to the narrative. While it remains possible, through deconstruction and re-interpretation, to view these actions as a means by which Batman is deluding himself about his own homosexuality, the gay interpretation of Batman and Robin is ultimately subjective and not intended by creators in most contexts.
Or add a little more than what's above^^^^
Don't agree with me? If not then oh well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.213.210.87 ( talk • contribs) 15:48, June 13, 2006
What's up with the The Batman page? Everything's like gone! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.37.71.145 ( talk • contribs) .
Does anyone else think this article is a bit lengthy? It's listed as one that needs to be condensed, and I have to agree. After all, this is meant to be a wiki. character article, not "the definite analysis of Batman and all things Batman." Anyone of the same mind? And if so, any ideas on what can go? Bhissong 16:03, 17 June 2006 (UTC)bhissong
I proposed the article on Christopher York for deletion (see WP:BIO), and was asked by the creator to annouce that fact on this talk page since he is mentioned in the section on homosexual interpretations of Batman. I think it makes perfect sense for the referecne to his paper to remain here but for his own article to be deleted, but if anyone disagrees I won't worry about it. Eluchil404 02:20, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't think ALL new or unregistered users should be blocked from editing this page, but seeing as how this article seems to suffer new acts of vandalism everyday, I propose we vote to determine if we should continue to allow new and unregistered users to edit it. We just succeeded in keeping Batman as a featured article. We can't let everybody's work go to waste. -- Ace ETP 21:55, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm wondering whether it's feasible to have a section where a list of definitive Batman stories can be shown. I realise that "definitive" is a very subjective term, but I think it would be useful to have a few key stories that would show how the character was developed over 60 years from Bob Kane's original creation to the current version. This runs the risk of people putting in their favourite Batman story as a "definitive" story, but I think it's worth the risk. The Dark Knight Returns and Batman: Year One are the two automatic choices, but since these were written iin the 80s, I'd like to see a more representative selection across 60 years. Let me know if this is workable or not. -- D'Olivier 19:52, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Batman 654 labels Grayson as his ward (and skips over Jason). Should we switch it here? -- Ipstenu ( talk| contribs) 22:57, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Dude, that didn't happened drake shot first at cap boomerang, then when he fell he threw his boomerang killing drake. it's in identity crisis. chapter five father's day-- Brian Boru is awesome 23:51, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
When did this happen? I thought Bruce had offically adopted Dick a few years ago?-- Wakefencer
"Dick was my ward. Legally. It gave him security. I think you should have that too. However ... The laws have changed. I can't adopt you as my ward. For you to have the security I feel you deserve ... ... I'd have to adopt you as my son." (emphasis the comic, not me) -- Ipstenu ( talk| contribs) 23:59, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm new new new, but the other night I read a Batman comic in which the new robin is female, a 12 year old girl named some asexual name that has a 't' sound in it. (I need to get my hands back on the book...) I just wanted to draw attention to it, until I can sign in with the info, if others have it on their fingers more readily
The images lacks fair use rationales. This is a requirement for a featured article. Please fix this. -- Maitch 11:06, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Please justify the inclusion of Bill Finger as a "creator". Bob Kane created Batman and it was brought to Bill Finger to develop. It even says this right in the article. Finger is important to the Batman character as we know it, but he did not co-create him. Rhindle The Red 15:35, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Rhindle -- there is no need to accuse other Wikipedia editors of being "fanboyish" or intimating that they are not being truthful. I assure you that everyone involved is as concerned about article accuracy and truthfulness as you are. The issue of who deserves the credit for creating Batman is a longstanding one -- the issue here is that we're falling on different sides of the argument. You believe that the DC contracts and bylines accurately attribute who the creator was, others believe that the secondary sources which credit Finger as a primary collaborator prove that his role is important enough to warrant co-creator status.
I stress the word "collaborator" because your version credits Finger as an outsider brought into the project late. Ours stresses that Finger was Kane's ongoing collaborator on other projects before Batman, and Kane's contributions were still very, very rudimentary when Finger came on, and it was in the collaboration that the character was truly developed.
I believe that the scholarship agrees with our interpretation.
Les Daniel's Batman: The Complete History is the most thorough text still in publication. Daniels says they agreed to collaborate on comics well before developing Batman (p17), and that Kane and Finger had collaborated on development before Vin Sullivan saw Kane's sketches:
"What Sullivan missed was the process in which first Bob Kane and then Bill Finger ransacked their
memories for ideas from the past that they could incorporate into a comic book hero" (p18).
Daniels goes on to explain that Finger was not only a writer on the early publications, but was also there for the initial visual development of Kane's sketches, making contributions to those sketches that were just as vital as Kane's. "This was the figure of Batman that was presented for editor Vin Sullivan's approval, which it promptly received" (p22-23). It is only then that Daniels goes on to talk about Finger's authorship of the early Batman texts -- well after is involvement had already started.
You are correct that DC saw Finger as Kane's employee, but this appears to be largely due to the nature of DC's contractual perceptions, and not their creative process. Kane "had made his deal with DC Comics on his own" writes Daniels (p31), and "'I always felt rather badly that I never gave him a byline," said Kane recently, "He was the unsung hero.'" (p31).
Will Booker's Batman Unmasked: Analyzing a cultural icon concurs with this analysis:
"Kane has, of course, a strong claim to have 'created' Batman in his early sketches, with the proviso
that many of his ideas were derivative and were in any case refined by Bill Finger before the
character was presented to DC's editors." (p.51)(my emphasis).
Broker also writes:
Finally, with all due credit to Kane, Batman's creator, it is misleading to state that he "learned
successfully to share his creation with many other artists." Kane consistently played down the
contributions of his art assistant, Jerry Robinson, the writer Gardner Fox, and most crucially,
Batman's co-creator Bill Finger [...] without whom the character would never have become the cultural
icon he is today." (p.310) (my emphasis).
I would also like to put forth Rick Marschall's forward to Batman Archives: Volume 1:
"There was Bob Kane [...] and Bill Finger [...] the two of whom had been collaborating on comic-book
features during the dawning of the Golden Age. Kane produced the art -- crude, halting,
humorously inclined, but art nevertheless; and Finger wrote the scripts."(p4) (again, my emphasis).
Despite the official statements by DC (the controversy over byline credits in their contracts is covered in our article) I believe that scholars and historians on the matter are clear that Batman's creation is clearly a collaborative effort. ~CS 21:55, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
George Clooney made that statement as a joke after Barbara Walters asked him if he would ever play a gay cowboy. The paragraph that was in place was completely out of context and is in no way relevant to this topic. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.94.104.11 ( talk • contribs) .
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
This archive page covers approximately the dates between April 2006 and July2006.
Post replies to the main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary.
Please add new archivals to Talk:Batman/Archive06. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. -- Ipstenu ( talk| contribs) 20:59, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Does the Scarecrow knows Batman's true identity? I got that form an article here, somewhere on wikipedia.-- T-man, the wise 07:47, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
I started a Christopher York article, if he is such a great author he should have an article, so that we can finally know how is he such a good reference.-- T-man, the wise 10:07, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Where is the Bio of B:TAS Batman???-- T-man, the wise 10:12, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Done. The article is all Summary style. You can add or remove info from the sections here to meet your taste. This way we can help this article be more organized and at the same time more informative through sub-articles.
We still need to decide how are we going to expand and connect the Animated Series Batman to this article.-- T-man, the wise 05:11, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Moving on to new and more important things... Superman is now 35kb, while Batman is 49 kb. Further ideas on reduction? Dyslexic agnostic 08:10, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
You didn't say anythig about Superman, just check it out, that's the format I'm following. The ironic thing is that its current format DA's idea and my work months ago when he was kind of a coherent editor. (An annoying mindless one track mind nazi eraser calling himself minimalist, one could say, but at least he was coherent then).-- T-man, the wise 11:31, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Also, what was the point of this link WP:NOT you put? How is it related to this discussion? And BTW, I'm responsible for about 30% of the current format of Enemies of Batman. Friends of Batman should be as symilar to that article as the Batman article should be to Superman. this should be a 35k article.-- T-man, the wise 11:39, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Face it, T-man, your edits don't have consensus. CovenantD 16:00, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
I suspect that "T-man" is fairly young and still working on his writing skills -- and does not appear to be a native-english speaker -- so I encourage everyone to have a certain amount patience as he continues to gain experience at editing Wikipedia.
That said: I concur with the sentiments above. The recent edits to Batman and Batman: The Animated Series, as well as the creation of the redundent Batman (animated) article, have not improved the material. The material concerned with continuity sounds fanish, and innaproriate for a mature article. Additionally, I oppose any changes that strip down the material in a manner that creates lists or overly-segmented subheadings (such as the "friends" and "tools" sections in B:tAS) that disrupt the flow of the prose in the articles. These articles should be sophisticated, not fanish or read like RPG stats. ~CS 17:34, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
In my opinion we don't need separate articles. Wiki articles focus on fictional characters in both story and real world terms, so an overview of the character's evolution should remain in the main page. However, the focus should be on the current canonical version above all, so for example we shouldn't have a listing of all his relatives in every single iteration of the character. WesleyDodds 22:26, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Check other superhero articles and then come back and read Batman again. Notice how by adding so much non-cannonical material, you dont get a flowing biography. As it is right now, you read 2 outdated versions before you get to the modern version. If you want to know what's going on with current Batman, you have to ignore about 40% of the article. And then, you have a humongous section talking about speculations of him being gay. If you are a comediant that's gold, and it's a great thing it exists, info should never be eliminated, but that's another article. An article about a detail of Batman, a detail about how there is a history of comparisons between gay people and Batman style of life, pointing how easy is it to find them similar.
So you wanted a bio and you got, a killer Batman that got married to Catwoman, had a daughter and got killed at 50 by Hugo Strange; a lame one that chased Killer Moth in the museum of the world's biggest bug-traps and insecticides, even during working hours along with Alfred, Bat-mite, Ace, Robin, Batwoman, her niece Batgirl, Several uncles and aunts and a Chief O'Hara; a Bat-fruit sodomizing Robin; and finally some sections about the current one you wanted under the tittle "Modern Batman".
I say we define current batman, with his current powers, equipment and characters as a solid thing, then we gather the non-cannonical sections in a single one, something like "Batman over the Years", introducing readers to the concept of different continuities, diferent ages, conception of the character and the Crisis on the Infinite Earths.
About the Batman: TAS changes. It was the same concept there. There was a lot of sections with random info (forbiden character, especial characters, etc) about production details and no info detailing what the series is about. There was no Batman bio there. Again check other heroes, there is always a regular bio and then a mini bio about the animated version ( John Stewart, Hawkgirl, Flash, Darkseid, etc). How come, if batman is the main DCAU character he has no animated bio!!!!!!!!!! that's stupid. It's a DUHHHHH thing to change. I agree, that bio can be later merged, but where? Here? where is already to crowded and editors don't care much for that version. Or maybe in the Batman TAS page? Then again, it's a page about a show, not about a character.
It maybe confuses you the fact that my changes are rather raw, but I already spend too much time here, and this is a comunity work. I view other editors as a team, I won't built a castle alone, design is my thing, and it's all about shape. This is an article about what? We have a size to respect. Not because of memory space, but because it must be easy to read. We must avoid crowding the reader with info, and at the same time make sure Wikipedia has all the info there can be. The Batman article is a directory containing several files, including one called Batman.-- T-man, the wise 00:39, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
As CS said above, "Batman's a fictional character, and therefore the approach the article(s) should take is an academic and historical one." With that in mind, why do I not see any section on the influences and origins that led to Batman, e.g., Zorro, The Shadow, etc.?
Isn't it way more important to discuss how Batman is an old kind of hero that predates superheroes, and how he was based on the noirish pulp fiction of the '20s and '30s, than it is to list trivial information on alternate-universe Batmen? -- 69.177.118.70 16:08, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, I know some of the story, anyway. I'll get a section started; I'm sure others will have lots to add (or correct). I'll also have to refresh my memory with my reference book at home at some point, so the key words for now are "rough draft". -- Iritscen 13:11, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. By the way, the IP post above was me before I registered, but you probably guessed that. All right, the initial version is up.
Possible issues:
I still find these two sentences to be confusing: "It is retroactively established within the pages the 2006 limited series Infinite Crisis (after a character from the pre-1964 era is transferred to a re-created Earth-Two) that the pre-1964 Silver Age stories happen on Earth-Two, despite the fact that the year 1964 was well into the Silver Age (and therefore years after the supposed retirement of the Earth-Two Batman), and that the characters and creative concepts which remain post-1964 aren't given new origin stories."
"The characters also seem to recall their pre-1964 adventures, and the version of Batman which is established as living on Earth-One has been having adventures with Superman, the Justice League of America, and other heroes since well before 1964."
Ipstenu, you beat me to that comment...I provide more information below yours for context. -- Ace ETP 04:02, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I blame SuperBoy-Prime. No, seriously. I think it's trying to say 'Since per-1964/Silver Age characters were transported to Earth-2 during the recreaction of the Multiverse in Infinite Crisis, it has been established that Earth-2 was their home earth. This is, however contradictory as Batman of Earth-1 has many memories of events that take place in the Silver Age, and has been noted to have had adventures with Superman, the Justice League of America, and other heroes since well before the end of the Silver Age.' In essence, Bats is sort of straddling both pre and post crisis 'rules'. -- Ipstenu ( talk| contribs) 03:33, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
One thing we first need to realize is that the Crisis on Infinite Earths was an historic fraud perpetrated on DC fandom - a ludicrous, quite tasteless, poorly written, poorly conceived "answer" to problems that did not exist.
We can take what writers of this travesty claimed, and what following authors who mistakenly refused to realize that Crisis was a bad accident claimed -
and then we can look at the historical record.
Go ahead and argue with me about what is and is not "canonical". I don't care.
When DC comics destroyed the canon that I had enjoyed and read for two and a half whole entire \ decades prior to "Crisis", I stopped reading anything related to the new universe that rejected my treasured memories, destroyed my favorite tales and in essence was a statement by the new DC that me, and older fans like me, could all go to Hades and read something else.
Whatever the new DC may now claim, the timeline was well established prior to "Crisis".
The first, original Batwoman was introduced in July 1956. In 1964, Schwartz stopped using her - but this VERY SAME CHARACTER popped up again to team up with Earth 1's Barbara Gordon and she was executed by the League of Assassins on Earth-1 in 1979. She even appeared in JLA.
She therefore was NOT of Earth-2, but of Earth-1. If she has been retroactively assigned to Earth-2, this in no way changes the fact that she had appeared on Earth-1 prior to Crisis, and died on Earth-1 prior to Crisis. So, go ahead - tell me she's of Earth-2. I'll tell you to poop in your shoes.
There was a Batwoman of Earth-2 prior to Crisis, but that Batwoman never knew the Bronze Tiger. She surely was older than Earth-1's Batwoman, but her tales were not chronicled until after that Earth's Batman married that Earth's Catwoman. We first saw this Earth-2 Batwoman in a Brave and the Bold comic from 1982 ("Interlude on Earth-2"). She was teamed with Earth-2's Robin, who continued as Robin after the death of Earth-2's Batman, and also the Starman. Earth-1's Batman was transported there by Hugo Strange's manipulation of Starman's star-wand. Of HER history, we know little beyond how she donned costume prior to the wedding of Earth-2 Batman and Earth-2 Catwoman to foil a plot by the Earth-2 Scarecrow.
The mushroom-induced Bat-Mite appeared during the transcript of some writer's deranged drug trip in May 1959. Schwartz wisely stopped using this character, too - but again THIS VERY SAME CHARACTER Mr. Mxyzptlk in World's Finest comic strips in 1965 and 1967. Note the spelling - this was on Earth-1.
The first and original Batgirl, introduced in 1961, was the niece of the first and original Batwoman, and therefore must have been of Earth-1. Reinforcing her Earth-1 origins, she later appeared in the tales of Teen Titans West. The Robin with whom she flirted was a boy - not a grown man such as he who teamed with the Huntress on Earth-2 against Earth-2's Joker.
When I was a DC comics fan, established canon was that Earth-2's Batman retired before the Bathound was introduced.
Of course, as I noted, DC flipped all of us older fans the bird and unfortunately was NOT bankrupted as a result. More's the pity.
Now we have had, for twenty years, a DC universe that is telling me that all my favorite characters never existed and all of my favorite tales never happened. Even worse, it's telling me the brilliant new tales (well, new then and over twenty years old now) penned by Roy Thomas never happened - a cardinal sin. I never shall understand why Roy played such a lusty role erasing the beautifully scripted storylines he had just created.
None of this changes the facts about Batwoman's role in the Batman series. She, Batman and Robin were battling Earth-1 villains: Clayface, the Catman, Earth-1's Lex Luthor, Killer Moth and the Firefly. In World's Finest, 1957, Batwoman was involved in a story that made mention of "Jor-El"
Batwoman's obvious Earth-1 affiliation was decidedly made clear in Batman Family #17, published in 1978.
The Huntress, Helena Wayne of Earth-2, traveled to Earth-1 and interviewed Earth-1's Batman while seeking the counsel of established super-heroines. Earth-1's Batman referred her to Earth-1's Batwoman.
So, there you go folks - DC can try to put the genie back in the bottle, but these stories were written and people like me read them.
Currently, Batman is listed as a fictional atheist, along with several others. Personally, I don't care in either regard, but I'm concerned with the lack of any proof or statements to support the position. --AWF
Yeh, he has met super dudes like that angel that joined the league for a while, Etrigan, the Spectre, and many others. After that I don't think its a matter of faith for Batman, he just know there is a celestial order, because he happens to know some of the celestial beings. That kind of thoughts always cross my mind when I read comics involving Greek gods a and celestial beings, in DC Universe, you just know there is a god---Zauriel!! I think that's the name of the angel. I mean with angels and demons in the public eye you don't keed faith you just know.-- T-man, the wise 20:02, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
So long as we're not saying 'He believes in hell so he must be <insert religion>' I think that's fair. You can say you're going to hell without actually beilving it, but in this case, I think we need more proof that Bats is an atheiest (negative proof proves nothing). -- Ipstenu ( talk| contribs) 03:36, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I think relegion is more an application of faith, whereas Bruce takes certain things as fact. he doesnt have to be a Christian and have faith that there is an afterlife; he knows this for certain. My thoughts are, when you carry such definable knowledge of subjects, certain componants of faith and certianly relegious dogma become totally irrelevant. Therefore it would be a mis-service to label Bruce in terms of any relegious or anti-relegious methodology. Violet Grey 15:11, 8 June 2006
I don't think this belong here, and it think it lowers the article's quality. -- Chris Griswold 13:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
The article assumes that the modern interpretation of Batman began with "Year One". Thing is, it didn't. The Post-Crisis Batman's adventures began with Batman #401, and even then he made a prior appearence in the Man of Steel miniseries. So what should we do? WesleyDodds 05:25, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I removed the following section from 'Supporting characters' and I think it should go back in but I don't know where. Help?
It's useful information but it felt like more than just a toss in supporting chars -- Ipstenu ( talk| contribs) 00:41, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
How about here? Batman#Persona CovenantD 00:44, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Why do people keep removing this? It's relevant information. If you take anything, make it the beginning of this, but keep the description of Spoiler's death in! CmdrClow 08:15, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
I made an edit because after viewing the Barbara Walters interview, I think it can be clearly seen that Clooney was joking about the Batman being gay after being asked if he would play a gay cowboy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx3IjSXOt8c&search=barbara%20walters So I changed it from Clooney "said" to Clooney "joked". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hokgwai ( talk • contribs) .
What I'm saying is, Clooney was saying it in a very lighthearted and humorous matter. It's really not something to be taken as so concrete and serious. He did not mean to portray a homosexual character; he just ended up making it that way and it's simply a humorous and somewhat regretful retrospect for him. He has stated on several occassions that he was "a big fan" as a kid, so you can honestly imagine him truly attempting to play a homosexual Batman? Neither Clooney, Kilmer, nor O'Donnel were actually trying to play homosexuals; they all have relationships with, and kiss, women for crying out loud. And as I said, this is obviously causing a lot of misinterpretation by fans. If you refuse to leave the piece out, I would just like to at least edit it a bit with a words like "allegidly." That's not asking a lot, and I'm just trying to be reasonable. When you see enough of Clooney's interviews, you know when not to take him so seriously as to report it to the world as a bold, serious statement. -- Caleson 13 June 2006
I don't think we need to be glib. If we look at the difference in Clooney's demeanor when he is talking about his investigative trip to Dafar (which was undeniably serious) and his comment about how he played Batman (to which Barbara Walters responded to with laughter, because she knew he was joking after asking him a serious question about Brokeback Mountain), I think we can all see that Clooney was not making a serious comment about his portrayal of Batman. Barbara Walters asked him a direct question (joking or not) "George, is Batman gay?" To which he responded, "No, but I made him gay." With all due respect, I am changing it back to "Clooney joked -- User:Hokgwai 8:20, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
-- User:Caleson 1 July 2006
As per the Batman FARC, I have tried to deal with the Trivia section. I ended up deleting most of it, but was able to keep the bit about the source of Bruce Wayne's name; however, I think that the item about Forbes Mag's comparison of Bruce Wayne's wealth is interesting. Unfortunately, I do not know where it should go. -- Chris Griswold 17:13, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
What about combining Infinite Crisis and 52's sections into one? They're both very short, and pretty much the point of 52 is 'a world without Batman' so we shouldn't expect to see him... -- Ipstenu ( talk| contribs) 18:49, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Could someone explain where the section evolution of the character has gone from either this article or History of Batman? It's purportedly merged back here but I can't seem to find it. Hiding Talk 20:27, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
With all of the new edits going on, a lot of people are incorrectly changing the tense. When it comes to the story elements, you should write those in present tense. Yes, "four teenagers serve as Robin" is correct. This is a work of fiction. -- Chris Griswold 21:18, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Okay! English-major hat on! Chris Griswold is absolutely, 100% correct that works of fiction should be written about in the present tense. The conceit is that a work of fiction is not intended to relate past events, but unfolds as we are reading. Even when the author makes a creative decision to write in the past tense (It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, It was the summer of 1923) for the reader, the events are still taking place as we read. The question here is the relationship between the reader and the text: the relationship is immediate, not vicarious. We're writing about works of literature which are perpetually present, not about real people or events that actually took place in the past.
That said, the serial nature of comics adds a difficult element to this: because the events of the story take place over so much time -- both in the reader's world and in the internal continuity of the stories -- sometimes the present tense is imperfect for expressing ideas accurately. The best way to handle this is to write around the problem -- as I see Ipstenu has taken a stab at in the questionable sentence. Since this sentence is still unclear, I've given a try to write around the problem from a different approach. My sentence is also imperfect, however, and it may be necessary to return the sentence to its original past-tense form if no satisfactory write-around is found. While I would object strongly to revising the majority of the article to past-tense, I believe the English language is pliable in this regard, and we can skirt rules in instances where it makes the sentence more clear. ~CS 19:55, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Then, at 17, Dick leaves the mantle of Robin and becomes Nightwing. Jason Todd, about 14 or 15, becomes the next Robin and dies within the year (Batman says in one Batman that Jason died after nine months of being Robin, this is after the reboot and the Crisis On Infinite Earths. This would leave Batman at about 31. Now, shortly afterwards, 12-year old Tim Drake takes up the role of Robin, and a year or two later, Batman: No Man's Land happens over the course of a year. Another year later, Tim is now 15, Bruce is now 33, the Batman: Hush story arc begins over the course of a few months.
During the new part of the year, the Infinite Crisis happens, the Battle of Metropolis results in Superboy's death, and Jason Todd, now 18 or 19, comes back as the Red Hood. Fast foward one year later, Batman is now 34 or 35 (just about right), Tim Drake is around 16 to 17, and Dick Grayson is now about 21-23. It all adds up.
Overall, Batman is definitely early to mid thirties, and that's the oldest he'll get! Look at Superman, he has always been aged around 30, and he'll never get older! The movies Superman: The Movie and Superman Returns prove this by showing him in his late twenties, just around that right age. Psst, I heard that a later One Year Later story is gonna have Batman and Robin get doused in some youth restorative of Ra's al Ghul's, bringing them back five years younger. Tim, around 17, would probably become 11 or 12, and Batman would be brought back to his late twenties! Thank goodness for the slowing of aging, or Batman would be walking around with a cane! -- Jonathan.Bruce 07:32, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
I didn't see this mentioned in the article, so thought I'd throw it out there. In one of the Justice League episodes (I believe in the "Wild Cards" episode) it shows a brief display of Batman's height at 6'3" and weight at 240 lbs. Have fun. -- Alsayid 06:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I have just got rid of the whole paragraph talking about him being gay. I don't care if I get blocked from editing. I just don't think it's fair that the second main DC hero is being ruined like this.-- Mr.Nobody 19:04, 13 June 2006 (UTC)Mr.Nobody
On the thing that talks about Batman being gay why don't you just remove some?
Batman, both as a superhero and in his identity as Bruce Wayne, has been portrayed throughout his years in comics and other media as not only heterosexual, but also as having enjoyed a high number of romantic and/or sexual relationships with women, and his encounters with his female adversaries have also occasionally used sexual tension to add to the narrative. While it remains possible, through deconstruction and re-interpretation, to view these actions as a means by which Batman is deluding himself about his own homosexuality, the gay interpretation of Batman and Robin is ultimately subjective and not intended by creators in most contexts.
Or add a little more than what's above^^^^
Don't agree with me? If not then oh well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.213.210.87 ( talk • contribs) 15:48, June 13, 2006
What's up with the The Batman page? Everything's like gone! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.37.71.145 ( talk • contribs) .
Does anyone else think this article is a bit lengthy? It's listed as one that needs to be condensed, and I have to agree. After all, this is meant to be a wiki. character article, not "the definite analysis of Batman and all things Batman." Anyone of the same mind? And if so, any ideas on what can go? Bhissong 16:03, 17 June 2006 (UTC)bhissong
I proposed the article on Christopher York for deletion (see WP:BIO), and was asked by the creator to annouce that fact on this talk page since he is mentioned in the section on homosexual interpretations of Batman. I think it makes perfect sense for the referecne to his paper to remain here but for his own article to be deleted, but if anyone disagrees I won't worry about it. Eluchil404 02:20, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't think ALL new or unregistered users should be blocked from editing this page, but seeing as how this article seems to suffer new acts of vandalism everyday, I propose we vote to determine if we should continue to allow new and unregistered users to edit it. We just succeeded in keeping Batman as a featured article. We can't let everybody's work go to waste. -- Ace ETP 21:55, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm wondering whether it's feasible to have a section where a list of definitive Batman stories can be shown. I realise that "definitive" is a very subjective term, but I think it would be useful to have a few key stories that would show how the character was developed over 60 years from Bob Kane's original creation to the current version. This runs the risk of people putting in their favourite Batman story as a "definitive" story, but I think it's worth the risk. The Dark Knight Returns and Batman: Year One are the two automatic choices, but since these were written iin the 80s, I'd like to see a more representative selection across 60 years. Let me know if this is workable or not. -- D'Olivier 19:52, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Batman 654 labels Grayson as his ward (and skips over Jason). Should we switch it here? -- Ipstenu ( talk| contribs) 22:57, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Dude, that didn't happened drake shot first at cap boomerang, then when he fell he threw his boomerang killing drake. it's in identity crisis. chapter five father's day-- Brian Boru is awesome 23:51, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
When did this happen? I thought Bruce had offically adopted Dick a few years ago?-- Wakefencer
"Dick was my ward. Legally. It gave him security. I think you should have that too. However ... The laws have changed. I can't adopt you as my ward. For you to have the security I feel you deserve ... ... I'd have to adopt you as my son." (emphasis the comic, not me) -- Ipstenu ( talk| contribs) 23:59, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm new new new, but the other night I read a Batman comic in which the new robin is female, a 12 year old girl named some asexual name that has a 't' sound in it. (I need to get my hands back on the book...) I just wanted to draw attention to it, until I can sign in with the info, if others have it on their fingers more readily
The images lacks fair use rationales. This is a requirement for a featured article. Please fix this. -- Maitch 11:06, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Please justify the inclusion of Bill Finger as a "creator". Bob Kane created Batman and it was brought to Bill Finger to develop. It even says this right in the article. Finger is important to the Batman character as we know it, but he did not co-create him. Rhindle The Red 15:35, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Rhindle -- there is no need to accuse other Wikipedia editors of being "fanboyish" or intimating that they are not being truthful. I assure you that everyone involved is as concerned about article accuracy and truthfulness as you are. The issue of who deserves the credit for creating Batman is a longstanding one -- the issue here is that we're falling on different sides of the argument. You believe that the DC contracts and bylines accurately attribute who the creator was, others believe that the secondary sources which credit Finger as a primary collaborator prove that his role is important enough to warrant co-creator status.
I stress the word "collaborator" because your version credits Finger as an outsider brought into the project late. Ours stresses that Finger was Kane's ongoing collaborator on other projects before Batman, and Kane's contributions were still very, very rudimentary when Finger came on, and it was in the collaboration that the character was truly developed.
I believe that the scholarship agrees with our interpretation.
Les Daniel's Batman: The Complete History is the most thorough text still in publication. Daniels says they agreed to collaborate on comics well before developing Batman (p17), and that Kane and Finger had collaborated on development before Vin Sullivan saw Kane's sketches:
"What Sullivan missed was the process in which first Bob Kane and then Bill Finger ransacked their
memories for ideas from the past that they could incorporate into a comic book hero" (p18).
Daniels goes on to explain that Finger was not only a writer on the early publications, but was also there for the initial visual development of Kane's sketches, making contributions to those sketches that were just as vital as Kane's. "This was the figure of Batman that was presented for editor Vin Sullivan's approval, which it promptly received" (p22-23). It is only then that Daniels goes on to talk about Finger's authorship of the early Batman texts -- well after is involvement had already started.
You are correct that DC saw Finger as Kane's employee, but this appears to be largely due to the nature of DC's contractual perceptions, and not their creative process. Kane "had made his deal with DC Comics on his own" writes Daniels (p31), and "'I always felt rather badly that I never gave him a byline," said Kane recently, "He was the unsung hero.'" (p31).
Will Booker's Batman Unmasked: Analyzing a cultural icon concurs with this analysis:
"Kane has, of course, a strong claim to have 'created' Batman in his early sketches, with the proviso
that many of his ideas were derivative and were in any case refined by Bill Finger before the
character was presented to DC's editors." (p.51)(my emphasis).
Broker also writes:
Finally, with all due credit to Kane, Batman's creator, it is misleading to state that he "learned
successfully to share his creation with many other artists." Kane consistently played down the
contributions of his art assistant, Jerry Robinson, the writer Gardner Fox, and most crucially,
Batman's co-creator Bill Finger [...] without whom the character would never have become the cultural
icon he is today." (p.310) (my emphasis).
I would also like to put forth Rick Marschall's forward to Batman Archives: Volume 1:
"There was Bob Kane [...] and Bill Finger [...] the two of whom had been collaborating on comic-book
features during the dawning of the Golden Age. Kane produced the art -- crude, halting,
humorously inclined, but art nevertheless; and Finger wrote the scripts."(p4) (again, my emphasis).
Despite the official statements by DC (the controversy over byline credits in their contracts is covered in our article) I believe that scholars and historians on the matter are clear that Batman's creation is clearly a collaborative effort. ~CS 21:55, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
George Clooney made that statement as a joke after Barbara Walters asked him if he would ever play a gay cowboy. The paragraph that was in place was completely out of context and is in no way relevant to this topic. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.94.104.11 ( talk • contribs) .