This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This archive page covers approximately the dates between March 2005 and November 2005.
Post replies to the main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary.
Please add new archivals to Talk:Batman/Archive02. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. Hiding talk 11:12, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Was he ever legally adopted by Bruce? Apostrophe 05:24, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Yes. Unlike Dick Grayson, Jason Todd was legally adopted by Bruce Wayne as his son from the beginning. Dick was not legally adopted by Bruce until much later.
Actually, I think that only happened in the pre-crisis version (where Bruce even fought a bitter custody battle to adopt Jason. I'm not positive anything similar happended in the current continuity.--Talison 04:26, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
There was also pre-Adam West tv series, in black and white.
Was the feature film "The Wild World of Batwoman" from 1966 too stupid to be listed here? The Catwoman movie is listed. Arctic.gnome
"Batwoman" is unrelated and I think I even read DC sued the makers. --Talison 04:27, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
No brilliant info to add, just that a DVD is finally being released of this.
Speaking as a gay man (and I know on behalf of others), could I say that Robin's legs, particularly when so ably portrayed by Chris O'Donnell, do indeed enourage homosexuality? Adam 04:24, 9 Oct 2003 (UTC)
...I'm not even sure what to say to this. Robin is meant to be a young boy. Are you also a pedophile?
I removed the following from the article because I really don't think RPG stats belong in Wikipedia. Since large numbers of these "vital stats" sections have been added to various articles, I'm using Talk:Strength level (comics) to discuss this issue in general. Bryan 02:20, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)
is there really no page on Azrael?? -- Yak 17:58, Mar 9, 2004 (UTC)
i do not think the picture is in the public domain.
I was noticing -- the Superman article lists several pastiche-type characters, including Hyperion, Underdog, and so on, based on Superman. It would be nice to see something here, but I don't know of enough to warrant it. However, I know there are several Batman clones out there, including but not limited to: The Blue Falcon, Night Owl ( Watchmen), Owlman ( DC's Earth 3 villain), Nighthawk ( Squadron Supreme), and I'm sure Image had to have one, but I never read their stuff because the chance of seeing Leifeld's terrible artwork was too high. -- user:Dodger
This is a good idea - Batman is one of the most frequently ripped-off characters in comics. Although Nite-Owl was actually intended as a Blue Beetle pastiche, IIRC. Lokicarbis 03:50, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)
it should be noted that both Ozymandias and Rorschach are derived from Bats, one being the relentless vigilante, and the other being the billionare playboy hero. Rorschach is also heavily based on The Question, another Batman-like DC hero.
The article states that [Gotham] is [New York]. I believe that [Metropolis] is [New York]; while however, [Gotham] is [Boston].
?alabio 07:15, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
You're welcome to provide actual evidence from the comics for your supposition, of course. Back up your belief with facts/data. Kaijan 08:35, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
Gotham may be a nickname for New York; However, it is supposed to have a Revolutionary War history (which New York City lacks); At one time, Metropolis was depicted as
Manhattan and Gotham as
Brooklyn separated by a bridge. Gotham City has a Philadelphia aspect to it as per artist
Bernie Wrightson. And Boston is Wonder Woman's turf. -
Sparky 07:31, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The original Bat-man comics from 1939 strongly imply that Bat-man is a resident of New York City. See page 46 of Batman Archives Volume 1, 1990,DC Comics. The story is reprinted from Detective Comics September 1939 (No. 31), "Batman versus the Vampire (Part 1)". The first panel has the caption "Through the dark of a New York night..." The second panel also shows a famous pose of the early Batman with wings spread.
The classic comic Superman vs. Spiderman had a map of the East Coast of the United States which implied that Gotham City was New York, while Metropolis was (believe it or not) Philadelphia!
More trivia gleaned from Batman Archives Volume 1:
-- ?jmalin7 5:39, 8 May 2004 (UTC)
What about the several Batman video games?
-- 217.232.1.229 18:17, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
I haven't see the show, so I can't say for sure - but shouldn't Birds_of_Prey rate a mention in the Television section? Lokicarbis 03:52, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)
Contains the word "camp" or a derivative at least three times. Takes away from the flow and poetry. I'd edit it, but I'm not yet sure how to go about it. Just a personal reminder.
YES! I just came here to say that. The original author must have just learnt the meaning of that word, as he used it 9 times. Please fix it, somebody.
Also in the movies section Batman & Robin doesn't have a director. Consistency in the list needed.
Removed from article:
For one thing, the relative realities of "Clark Kent" and "Superman" have varied over the years (when the character was created, for instance, "Clark Kent" was entirely a shallow front over Superman). For another, the relative realities of "Bruce Wayne" and "Batman" have likewise varied. For yet another, I would argue that in the cases of both Superman and Batman, the truth as it currently stands is that both the public superhero persona and the public less-heroic persona are situation-dependant fronts for the real person. -- Paul A 06:59, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
You're right because saying that Bruce Wayne is just a front over Batman is quite disrespectful to the character and devoids him of any meaning. Batman exists because of Bruce Wayne's tragedy, which was losing his parents. Everytime he goes to that cemetery and pays them tribute he reinforce that. In fact, the "never forget" device has been used regularly in the comics.
Recently, in the pages of Superman, that very same question was laid about Superman/Clark & Batman/Bruce and which was the dominant personality in each one of them. Bruce himself stated "I'm Bruce Wayne!".
This whole section was a whole lot of opinion and "original research" (i.e. an essay exploring the topic), not encyclopedic information. Tverbeek 15:10, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Hi, I am working to encourage implementation of the goals of the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy. Part of that is to make sure articles cite their sources. This is particularly important for featured articles, since they are a prominent part of Wikipedia. The Fact and Reference Check Project has more information. Thank you, and please leave me a message when you have added a few references to the article. - Taxman 16:24, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
The 60's TV show arsenal included such ridiculous "bat-" names as a bat-computer, bat-rope, bat-scanner, bat-radar, bat-handcuffs, bat-phone, bat-bat, bat-drinking water dispenser, bat-camera with polarized bat-filter, shark repellent bat-spray, bat-funnel and alphabet soup bat-container.
Is this for real?-- Fito 03:43, May 29, 2005 (UTC)
In the Batman movie the Penguine is taken back to the Batcave while diguised as a Commadore. He asks for some water and Adam West says "The drinking water dispencer is clearly marked." It, in fact, is clearly marked just like everything in the Batcave. However it is not a "Bat-Drinking Water Dispencer" and none of the items in the cave seem to bear the Bat prefix.--Talison 04:43, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
From the article:
This is a serious allegation which I've never seen before, and it's both lazy and irresponsible to brush it off with, "Most accounts suggest..." Every comic, movie, novel, and TV show I've seen credits Bob Kane. If you have reason to believe someone named Bill Finger was involved, you have to back that up with specific, sourced information. Otherwise this is exactly the sort of anonymous, unfounded allegation that impeaches the credibility of Wikipedia.
yeah! is more like a "who kept the rights" thing, from what i know but is comonly known that bill finger drew batman for the first time (unles bob kane did a not so famous raw sketch or something)-- T for Trouble-maker 22:35, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
This is an old chestnut, but which name is "official" or "his correct name", etc, needn't concern us here, what matters is the most common name. That's why this page is at Batman, and not The Batman, and it stands to reason that the article's first bold title should indeed correspond to the article title. Feel free to add as many caveats as desired as to originality, officialness, etc, of the "The Batman" name, but please bear in mind that convention. Alai 02:51, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I just found this cool page on howstuffworks.com about the bat suit works:
http://www.howstuffworks.com/batsuit.htm
Maybe we can incorporate this somewhere on the page? I see the bat suit link is missing :) -- Mayuresh Kadu (India) 08:39, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
....and I was just about to nominate this as a featured article, too, before I clicked here and realized it already was one. Good work to all involved. -- FuriousFreddy 17:09, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Now i have no problem with homosexuality, but i do have a problem with people trying to look for something that doesn't exist. this page is for discussion of batman, if you would like to discuss batman and the homosexual stigma, please discuss it in batman the tv series wikipedia entry. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_%28TV_series%29 since that is really the only place where it has been an issue. also i removed the image of batman and robin condom ad, since that is not actually batman and robin and in no way endorsed by dc comics.
I did initially remove the entries of batman's homosexuality, then i tried to reinclude it in a way that would not be offensive to anyone. after Haiduc reverted it, i thought i should try and accomodate this view, so i just made some changes and additions. nothing big. i would also like to discuss this further before any major changes be made.
-- CaptainCrash
Edit: Dictionary.com
Stigma 5:A mark of shame or discredit.
-- CaptainCrash 02:31, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Also 'Slanderous' might have been too harsh a word, but I got that impression from Amazon Reviews where most people felt this whole book was a joke and an insult to the comics/comic characters mentioned, and hurtful to the industry. I choose the word because some people felt that the original claim that Batman was homosexual was intended as derogatory to Batman and Robin, and homosexuality was considered offensive at the time, from the time period it was claimed that is understandable. Also, never did I claim that being homosexual was bad, and I don't appreciate people reading into things that don't exist. If you have a problem with my editing do not claim that it's because of some anti-gay agenda. It may actually be because I saw that an edit was justified. You may contact me, if you have a problem with my edit, and we can discuss it.
edit. Also I didn't even mention it, Batman being a quadroon would almost definetly be considered slanderous if the claim was made during the 50's. But that's not part of the discussion. you can go ahead and include it if you'd like. just don't devote a sub-section unless there is enough information and importance on the subject to justify it. -- CaptainCrash 03:02, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Where has it ever been stated that Batwoman and Batgirl were introduced to prove Batman and Robin wern't gay? Superman and Wonder Woman also recieved an extensive "family" of characters after the code and all of DC was made lighter, campier, and more family friendly. Seems like it was just standard practice in the 50s. Also, every interview I have ever read states Dennis O'Neil seperated Batman and Robin to get back to darker stories about a more driven Dark Knight. Do you know of a source that states they were seperated to debug the gay theory? I've no doubt that the idea exists that they may be gay. Although I don't see it myself I understand where people get it from and don't argue with it being mentioned in this article. However these facts I mention seem unproven, and much of the section is simply POV. --Talison 08:21, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
"Seems like it was just standard practice?" Ever thought about WHY that became standard practice? Here's a hint: Fredric Wertham, Seduction of the Innocent, and congressional hearings all had something to do with it. Nobody's suggesting that there weren't other, story reasons for all of these things to happen... but that particular era of comics history, and specifically BATMAN in that era, played a huge role in the direction comics would take for at least the next twenty years or so. It's entirely possible we're still feeling the repercussions today. Ignoring it would be like ignorning the Adam West TV show -- sure, we WISH it wasn't there, but it was, it was important, so it gets addressed. -Simnel
I think much of the "this is gay stuff/no it isn't/he's bonkin' Robin/no he isn't" thing is of historical significance and not an insignificant part of popular culture, and frankly, to not address the issue at all stinks of intellectual dishonesty at its best and historical revisionism or homophobia at its worst. I want to stress that I'm not making any accusations here, I'm just making a point that it should be addressed and not addressing it is going to look like someone's embarrassed to talk about it, because it's a pretty well-known issue precisely because Wertham and others have made such a big deal out of it, and because it had consequences that altered the character and how the character was perceived. I should stress that this is not just some small fringe thing; it's something a lot of people who're not necessarily comics readers might be interested in.
That said, I think the article's getting to be too damn huge as it is and could really use some chopping up into smaller sections. It strikes me that this particular thing could well be turned into an article of its own; it could be dealt with more depth there without worrying about how it would impact on the main Batman article's readability. Another section that could well benefit from a similar treatment is "Batman in Popular Culture".
Thus, the main Batman article would just include the information about Batman and his history in the context of the comics, but the other articles (or perhaps one larger article that could incorporate both of the sections I mention above) would include more information about how Batman has been represented and perceived outside the traditional format.
Comments? Ideas? Suggestions? Hit me. -- Captain Disdain 13:12, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Just to relight the gay controversy... Or not. Recall Bats (& Robin) was created at a time when most comics fans were subadolescent boys. Was it kinky for C.A. to have Bucky as a sidekick? (OK, putting the kid in deadly danger is pretty sick, but that's a whole 'nother Wertham.) How many fans "stared adoringly" at Bats? What % were (are) gay? Doesn't this aspect (the kid fans, not the adoring stares) deserve some mention? Trekphiler 16:40, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
This is getting out of hand. User:CaptainCrash continues to remove factual information from the article, including reference ot an actual book about the subject. I propse that we cease editing on this section until re reach an actual compromise to whether or not we want to present factual information here, present the information in a seperate article (which will most likely get sen ot VfD and merged back here), or delete the information and violate the rule on Wikipedia:NPOV. -- FuriousFreddy 17:25, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Also, as far as this goes:
...the opinions of noted, published scholars are notable enough to be mentioned in an encyclopedia article. At the very least, remove mention of the book but keep the blurb about gay culture the way it was months beforehand. -- FuriousFreddy 17:45, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I am sorry my work has created so much chaos, but let's clear a couple of things up. It is absurd to claim that Batman "is" this or that, or to "defend" him. All I am doing is documenting one particular aspect of people's takes on this character, their readings of meaning and feeling into the story line, and the way that has played through cultures and subcultures. I am keeping to material that is written by serious scholars. Which brings me to my second point. It borders on comical for some of the contributors here to presume to pass judgement on the validity of recognized academics or entire branches of science. If you are going participate in the building of an encyclopeadia you will have to set aside your own opinions and do some serious study of existing science. If you block other users who are reporting on ongoing scholarly study because it runs against your personal opinions then you are simply catering to your personal comfort, which is not what this game is about. Prove me wrong, bring counterarguments from serious people, but don't censor me. It is my intent to create a short critical section - with appropriate illustrations - exploring a side to Batman's culturalization that was and is very important to a great many people, both young and old. I agreed here to integrate my work into an existing sub-section, as a gesture of collegiality. I did not agree to have my work subject to censorship. I grew up under communism, I have had enough of that. Haiduc 01:38, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I think it's very pathetic that something that started out innocent was wrenched into something perverse. Ereinion 18:36, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
I searched the topics noted in this section and it has come to my attention that every topic in that section has already been addressed in wikipedia in as much detail given in the section itself, it seems redundant. Such as Fredric Wertham's opinion on the sexuality of Batman and Robin, but Especially the paragraph containing "Batman is known as being..." which is not only partially out of place, but mostly redundant with information given in this very article! This whole section should be revamped to provide some kind of usefulness or it should be removed. It might be constructive to relocate the information in this section to other sub-sections which better fit the information given, and perhaps the information could be cut down to not be redundant but to also provide the user with the information and a link to the article on the subject, So they do not lose access to the information, but it no longer clutters up an article with redundancy. I thought since this would be such a big change, I should bring it to the attention to all the editors of this article before I touch anything. -- CaptainCrash 06:01, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I have come across a curious image
and I would be grateful for any help people could provide in identifying the comic book and the date of publication. By the way, I have also re-organized the article, pending any splitting, so as to make it more readable. Haiduc 00:25, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
In order to present this aspect of Batman culture it seems necessary to have:
1. An example of suggestive art (and I would prefer the panel identified by
CaptainCrash above, since we are mainly talking about the comic book medium), and
2. An example of "ousider" art - such as the kiss I originally posted or the Chamberlain kiss picture, showing how readers have taken this suggested aspect of Batman and expanded on it. Also, mention should be made of the studio's efforts to distance Batman from Robin as a reflection of societal changes in which men fooling around with boys went from amusing peccadillo to major crime.
i think it might be a significant edit to add in some of batman's other appearances. for instance, i think it would be an excellent idea to include mention of the multiple batman cameo appearences on Scooby Doo (or was it "scooby doo and friends?"), and the show Batman Beyond (which unfortunately is how most children today know batman). I feel that this artical focuses too heavily on the comic books, and doesnt offer a fair share of information for the predominantly TV/Movie fans of batman. -- Whiteknight 03:59, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
the relationship between batman and superman is mentioned several times in this artical, but is never truely explained. i worry that the topic of their relationship is too narrow a topic to warrant another page, but perhaps a short blurb on this artical to describe why in some media they are perfectly friendly, and in other media, they have more of an uneasy truce. i also think it might be worth disscussing in more depth how batman's lack of "super powers" works to his advantage and disadvantage in super hero groups such as Justice League. -- Whiteknight 04:10, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Relationship between Batman and Superman? Like Batman and Robin it appears that these two were quite gay. Panels from World's Finest #289 Panels from World's Finest #289 Is there any doubt? This should go into the main article immediately. Dyslexic agnostic 19:36, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
yeah! you are so right! you Are dyslexic!-- T for Trouble-maker 10:04, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
i made a page about his belt, Batman's Utility belt. i linked to it in this article where it mentions the belt, and im posting this in here, if anyone has anything to contribute to it feel free. -- CaptainCrash 05:36, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
It is taken out of context and being spun as a homosexual reference. I will continue to delete it if I see it. Liek I said earlier, if Superman saved Jimmy Olsen, that doesn't mean that it's possible evidence of a homosexual relationship, it's simply evidence of contact between two men. I have NO PROBLEM with the additions of the homosexual Batman ideas on this page, but taking panels out of context is too much. AriGold 15:18, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
I think the point of the panel is that it is exactly images like these that lead to the Batman-as-gay image, not, if this is one of the concerns going on here, as evidence that Batman is gay. Yeah, its taken out of context, and yeah, its being given a double meaning that likely wasn't intended (though wow, its not at all hard to see that double meaning there). But here's the deal as I see it. Most likely none of the writers meant to make Batman look gay. Nonetheless, people see panels like that and say, "wow! Hey, Batman and Robin - what's the deal there?" We've got a whole section with quotes and references talking about just that phenomenon. It makes sense to add an image if that image helps to explain what they're seeing, how they're seeing it, and why they come to the conclusions they come to. It doesn't make sense to add an image if that image is being used to encourage readers to come to the same conclusions these psychologists, theorists, etc. have come to. Getting readers to come to one or another conclusion isn't our business here. Explaining terms, events, icons, etc. is, and if an image can help us do that it should remain. - Seth Mahoney
I was asked by AriGold to comment here as someone new to the issue/neutral. My opinion is that if you are going to admit references to the Batman/Robin gay relationship, this panel is perfectly illustrative of the kind of comments that have given him such a reputation and, as such, it belongs in the article (as clearly supporting evidence). →Raul654 21:48, July 18, 2005 (UTC)
It doesn't matter at all whether the writers intended this to be a subtle joke or if they accidentally created the double entendre—in either case you can easily argue that it contributes to the Batman-is-gay image without ever veering into the realm of speculation. This panel has long been a source of snickering on the matter; Wikipedia isn't making that up on the spot. Of course we don't know what the writers' intent was, barring like, you know, evidence, rather than original research. So we shouldn't offer any opinion on that either way (my personal opinion is that the writer(s) knew perfectly well what they were doing here, but that's just how I think about it). I notice that the caption to the image is silent on that matter, so what's the problem here? 82.92.119.11 22:26, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
I have some serious problems with the caption being used.
The placement of Batman's reference to Robin at the end of a series of sexual innuendoes renders what by itself would be a reasonable parental reaction into a comical punch line with homoerotic overtones.
First of all, the previous comments really aren't a string of sexual innuendos. It just shows each of the main character being concerned about the person they care about most, I have a hard time seeing how you find sexual innuendo in that. The joke in this case seems to be mostly unintentional, it's been a www.superdickery.com reference as well and my understanding was that it was from a much older issue, trying to claim intent on the part of the author seems to be a bit much. Including the picture as a reference to some of the jokes or claims made about Batman is one thing, but the caption implies that this interpretation is the correct or intended one.-- BigCow 02:46, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
I agree with you Decius about Batman, Robin has also been portrayed only in heterosexual relationships such as the ones with batgirl and starfire so Robin is not gay either. Dick Grayson
User DrachenFyre restored the following text, which I had deleted:
"Initially, the "Bat-Man" was a violent avenger who carried a pistol and left his foes dead more often than not (similar to The Punisher)."
This statement is false or misleading as given. I looked at the earliest 11 stories (the ones preceding the debut of Robin) in my copy of Batman Archives #1.
In these stories, Batman did not carry or use a pistol except for one time when he was fighting vampires and needed a silver bullet.
It may be literally true that he left his foes more often dead than not (an exact count is hard--how do you count him fighting the same guy twice?), but when stated that way it's misleading. When Batman killed his foes it was in such ways as him hitting someone and the guy falling out a window, or into a tank of acid, or onto a sword, or such. Except for the vampires, who are monsters and not human beings, Batman notably does *not* shoot villains, say "I'm going to kill you" (except one time, when he left the guy alive!), choke people to death, chop their heads off, or otherwise show any evidence that he directly intends to kill anyone. He is certainly not like the Punisher, who does intentionally kill people.
There is an urban legend that Batman commonly carried a gun and intentionally killed people. It arose in the decades following the Golden Age, when it was impossible for most fans to get the original stories and prove the urban legend false. Now that those early stories have been reprinted, there is no reason for this falsehood to persist.
I'm deleting the text again. Please don't restore it unless you can support your claim. Ken Arromdee 14:12, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
I just looked again and he has a gun in the splash page of #35. However, this splash page isn't part of the story and he has no gun in the story itself.
Ken Arromdee 23:44, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
Batmans Age is one long time unsolved question which I finnaly found a comparative new answer to: In "Death & the Maidens #1" Bruce remembers his parents murder happend exactly 25 years before. This is disproportional accurate I think. And "Superman & Batman Secret Files & Origins 2003" states, that Bruce was 10 (not 8, as said in the article) while that happened. (He was 8, everyone knows that.--A_gx7)
<BR>
This only leaves two questions:
1. How much time passed since Death & the Maidens in DCU
2. Is there information, being newer than the sources named above proving or disproving this?
I know why my edit was reverted the first time (some of the bottom text was cut off), but I made sure that didnt happen the second time. What's so wrong with switching the Lee images, as the other one has a better focus on him (as opposed to the 608 cover, which shows him from the side)? -- DrBat 12:55, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
I think that the Lee image is fine as is. If you reference both the Superman and Wonder Woman pages, you'll see that their images are also profile images. Perhaps it is an underlying sign by dedicated comic fans to have the DC Trinity in similar poses? Whilst your other image is perfectly acceptable, the Lee image just seems to "fit". - DrachenFyre 17:13, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone else feel it is important to diclose that Terry McGuinness, Batman of the Future, is, genetically speaking, Bruce's son as revealed in the Justice League League Unlimited 3rd (or 5th depending how you count) season finale "Epilouge"? RandallFlagg 20:23, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
I don't really see a reason to have a link to a diffrent page almost every other word. So I'm going to edit them out unless they have something to do with the Batman mythos in someway. Whispering 21:45, 28 November 2005 (UTC) disambiguation link repair ( You can help!)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This archive page covers approximately the dates between March 2005 and November 2005.
Post replies to the main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary.
Please add new archivals to Talk:Batman/Archive02. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. Hiding talk 11:12, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Was he ever legally adopted by Bruce? Apostrophe 05:24, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Yes. Unlike Dick Grayson, Jason Todd was legally adopted by Bruce Wayne as his son from the beginning. Dick was not legally adopted by Bruce until much later.
Actually, I think that only happened in the pre-crisis version (where Bruce even fought a bitter custody battle to adopt Jason. I'm not positive anything similar happended in the current continuity.--Talison 04:26, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
There was also pre-Adam West tv series, in black and white.
Was the feature film "The Wild World of Batwoman" from 1966 too stupid to be listed here? The Catwoman movie is listed. Arctic.gnome
"Batwoman" is unrelated and I think I even read DC sued the makers. --Talison 04:27, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
No brilliant info to add, just that a DVD is finally being released of this.
Speaking as a gay man (and I know on behalf of others), could I say that Robin's legs, particularly when so ably portrayed by Chris O'Donnell, do indeed enourage homosexuality? Adam 04:24, 9 Oct 2003 (UTC)
...I'm not even sure what to say to this. Robin is meant to be a young boy. Are you also a pedophile?
I removed the following from the article because I really don't think RPG stats belong in Wikipedia. Since large numbers of these "vital stats" sections have been added to various articles, I'm using Talk:Strength level (comics) to discuss this issue in general. Bryan 02:20, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)
is there really no page on Azrael?? -- Yak 17:58, Mar 9, 2004 (UTC)
i do not think the picture is in the public domain.
I was noticing -- the Superman article lists several pastiche-type characters, including Hyperion, Underdog, and so on, based on Superman. It would be nice to see something here, but I don't know of enough to warrant it. However, I know there are several Batman clones out there, including but not limited to: The Blue Falcon, Night Owl ( Watchmen), Owlman ( DC's Earth 3 villain), Nighthawk ( Squadron Supreme), and I'm sure Image had to have one, but I never read their stuff because the chance of seeing Leifeld's terrible artwork was too high. -- user:Dodger
This is a good idea - Batman is one of the most frequently ripped-off characters in comics. Although Nite-Owl was actually intended as a Blue Beetle pastiche, IIRC. Lokicarbis 03:50, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)
it should be noted that both Ozymandias and Rorschach are derived from Bats, one being the relentless vigilante, and the other being the billionare playboy hero. Rorschach is also heavily based on The Question, another Batman-like DC hero.
The article states that [Gotham] is [New York]. I believe that [Metropolis] is [New York]; while however, [Gotham] is [Boston].
?alabio 07:15, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
You're welcome to provide actual evidence from the comics for your supposition, of course. Back up your belief with facts/data. Kaijan 08:35, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
Gotham may be a nickname for New York; However, it is supposed to have a Revolutionary War history (which New York City lacks); At one time, Metropolis was depicted as
Manhattan and Gotham as
Brooklyn separated by a bridge. Gotham City has a Philadelphia aspect to it as per artist
Bernie Wrightson. And Boston is Wonder Woman's turf. -
Sparky 07:31, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The original Bat-man comics from 1939 strongly imply that Bat-man is a resident of New York City. See page 46 of Batman Archives Volume 1, 1990,DC Comics. The story is reprinted from Detective Comics September 1939 (No. 31), "Batman versus the Vampire (Part 1)". The first panel has the caption "Through the dark of a New York night..." The second panel also shows a famous pose of the early Batman with wings spread.
The classic comic Superman vs. Spiderman had a map of the East Coast of the United States which implied that Gotham City was New York, while Metropolis was (believe it or not) Philadelphia!
More trivia gleaned from Batman Archives Volume 1:
-- ?jmalin7 5:39, 8 May 2004 (UTC)
What about the several Batman video games?
-- 217.232.1.229 18:17, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
I haven't see the show, so I can't say for sure - but shouldn't Birds_of_Prey rate a mention in the Television section? Lokicarbis 03:52, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)
Contains the word "camp" or a derivative at least three times. Takes away from the flow and poetry. I'd edit it, but I'm not yet sure how to go about it. Just a personal reminder.
YES! I just came here to say that. The original author must have just learnt the meaning of that word, as he used it 9 times. Please fix it, somebody.
Also in the movies section Batman & Robin doesn't have a director. Consistency in the list needed.
Removed from article:
For one thing, the relative realities of "Clark Kent" and "Superman" have varied over the years (when the character was created, for instance, "Clark Kent" was entirely a shallow front over Superman). For another, the relative realities of "Bruce Wayne" and "Batman" have likewise varied. For yet another, I would argue that in the cases of both Superman and Batman, the truth as it currently stands is that both the public superhero persona and the public less-heroic persona are situation-dependant fronts for the real person. -- Paul A 06:59, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
You're right because saying that Bruce Wayne is just a front over Batman is quite disrespectful to the character and devoids him of any meaning. Batman exists because of Bruce Wayne's tragedy, which was losing his parents. Everytime he goes to that cemetery and pays them tribute he reinforce that. In fact, the "never forget" device has been used regularly in the comics.
Recently, in the pages of Superman, that very same question was laid about Superman/Clark & Batman/Bruce and which was the dominant personality in each one of them. Bruce himself stated "I'm Bruce Wayne!".
This whole section was a whole lot of opinion and "original research" (i.e. an essay exploring the topic), not encyclopedic information. Tverbeek 15:10, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Hi, I am working to encourage implementation of the goals of the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy. Part of that is to make sure articles cite their sources. This is particularly important for featured articles, since they are a prominent part of Wikipedia. The Fact and Reference Check Project has more information. Thank you, and please leave me a message when you have added a few references to the article. - Taxman 16:24, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
The 60's TV show arsenal included such ridiculous "bat-" names as a bat-computer, bat-rope, bat-scanner, bat-radar, bat-handcuffs, bat-phone, bat-bat, bat-drinking water dispenser, bat-camera with polarized bat-filter, shark repellent bat-spray, bat-funnel and alphabet soup bat-container.
Is this for real?-- Fito 03:43, May 29, 2005 (UTC)
In the Batman movie the Penguine is taken back to the Batcave while diguised as a Commadore. He asks for some water and Adam West says "The drinking water dispencer is clearly marked." It, in fact, is clearly marked just like everything in the Batcave. However it is not a "Bat-Drinking Water Dispencer" and none of the items in the cave seem to bear the Bat prefix.--Talison 04:43, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
From the article:
This is a serious allegation which I've never seen before, and it's both lazy and irresponsible to brush it off with, "Most accounts suggest..." Every comic, movie, novel, and TV show I've seen credits Bob Kane. If you have reason to believe someone named Bill Finger was involved, you have to back that up with specific, sourced information. Otherwise this is exactly the sort of anonymous, unfounded allegation that impeaches the credibility of Wikipedia.
yeah! is more like a "who kept the rights" thing, from what i know but is comonly known that bill finger drew batman for the first time (unles bob kane did a not so famous raw sketch or something)-- T for Trouble-maker 22:35, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
This is an old chestnut, but which name is "official" or "his correct name", etc, needn't concern us here, what matters is the most common name. That's why this page is at Batman, and not The Batman, and it stands to reason that the article's first bold title should indeed correspond to the article title. Feel free to add as many caveats as desired as to originality, officialness, etc, of the "The Batman" name, but please bear in mind that convention. Alai 02:51, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I just found this cool page on howstuffworks.com about the bat suit works:
http://www.howstuffworks.com/batsuit.htm
Maybe we can incorporate this somewhere on the page? I see the bat suit link is missing :) -- Mayuresh Kadu (India) 08:39, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
....and I was just about to nominate this as a featured article, too, before I clicked here and realized it already was one. Good work to all involved. -- FuriousFreddy 17:09, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Now i have no problem with homosexuality, but i do have a problem with people trying to look for something that doesn't exist. this page is for discussion of batman, if you would like to discuss batman and the homosexual stigma, please discuss it in batman the tv series wikipedia entry. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_%28TV_series%29 since that is really the only place where it has been an issue. also i removed the image of batman and robin condom ad, since that is not actually batman and robin and in no way endorsed by dc comics.
I did initially remove the entries of batman's homosexuality, then i tried to reinclude it in a way that would not be offensive to anyone. after Haiduc reverted it, i thought i should try and accomodate this view, so i just made some changes and additions. nothing big. i would also like to discuss this further before any major changes be made.
-- CaptainCrash
Edit: Dictionary.com
Stigma 5:A mark of shame or discredit.
-- CaptainCrash 02:31, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Also 'Slanderous' might have been too harsh a word, but I got that impression from Amazon Reviews where most people felt this whole book was a joke and an insult to the comics/comic characters mentioned, and hurtful to the industry. I choose the word because some people felt that the original claim that Batman was homosexual was intended as derogatory to Batman and Robin, and homosexuality was considered offensive at the time, from the time period it was claimed that is understandable. Also, never did I claim that being homosexual was bad, and I don't appreciate people reading into things that don't exist. If you have a problem with my editing do not claim that it's because of some anti-gay agenda. It may actually be because I saw that an edit was justified. You may contact me, if you have a problem with my edit, and we can discuss it.
edit. Also I didn't even mention it, Batman being a quadroon would almost definetly be considered slanderous if the claim was made during the 50's. But that's not part of the discussion. you can go ahead and include it if you'd like. just don't devote a sub-section unless there is enough information and importance on the subject to justify it. -- CaptainCrash 03:02, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Where has it ever been stated that Batwoman and Batgirl were introduced to prove Batman and Robin wern't gay? Superman and Wonder Woman also recieved an extensive "family" of characters after the code and all of DC was made lighter, campier, and more family friendly. Seems like it was just standard practice in the 50s. Also, every interview I have ever read states Dennis O'Neil seperated Batman and Robin to get back to darker stories about a more driven Dark Knight. Do you know of a source that states they were seperated to debug the gay theory? I've no doubt that the idea exists that they may be gay. Although I don't see it myself I understand where people get it from and don't argue with it being mentioned in this article. However these facts I mention seem unproven, and much of the section is simply POV. --Talison 08:21, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
"Seems like it was just standard practice?" Ever thought about WHY that became standard practice? Here's a hint: Fredric Wertham, Seduction of the Innocent, and congressional hearings all had something to do with it. Nobody's suggesting that there weren't other, story reasons for all of these things to happen... but that particular era of comics history, and specifically BATMAN in that era, played a huge role in the direction comics would take for at least the next twenty years or so. It's entirely possible we're still feeling the repercussions today. Ignoring it would be like ignorning the Adam West TV show -- sure, we WISH it wasn't there, but it was, it was important, so it gets addressed. -Simnel
I think much of the "this is gay stuff/no it isn't/he's bonkin' Robin/no he isn't" thing is of historical significance and not an insignificant part of popular culture, and frankly, to not address the issue at all stinks of intellectual dishonesty at its best and historical revisionism or homophobia at its worst. I want to stress that I'm not making any accusations here, I'm just making a point that it should be addressed and not addressing it is going to look like someone's embarrassed to talk about it, because it's a pretty well-known issue precisely because Wertham and others have made such a big deal out of it, and because it had consequences that altered the character and how the character was perceived. I should stress that this is not just some small fringe thing; it's something a lot of people who're not necessarily comics readers might be interested in.
That said, I think the article's getting to be too damn huge as it is and could really use some chopping up into smaller sections. It strikes me that this particular thing could well be turned into an article of its own; it could be dealt with more depth there without worrying about how it would impact on the main Batman article's readability. Another section that could well benefit from a similar treatment is "Batman in Popular Culture".
Thus, the main Batman article would just include the information about Batman and his history in the context of the comics, but the other articles (or perhaps one larger article that could incorporate both of the sections I mention above) would include more information about how Batman has been represented and perceived outside the traditional format.
Comments? Ideas? Suggestions? Hit me. -- Captain Disdain 13:12, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Just to relight the gay controversy... Or not. Recall Bats (& Robin) was created at a time when most comics fans were subadolescent boys. Was it kinky for C.A. to have Bucky as a sidekick? (OK, putting the kid in deadly danger is pretty sick, but that's a whole 'nother Wertham.) How many fans "stared adoringly" at Bats? What % were (are) gay? Doesn't this aspect (the kid fans, not the adoring stares) deserve some mention? Trekphiler 16:40, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
This is getting out of hand. User:CaptainCrash continues to remove factual information from the article, including reference ot an actual book about the subject. I propse that we cease editing on this section until re reach an actual compromise to whether or not we want to present factual information here, present the information in a seperate article (which will most likely get sen ot VfD and merged back here), or delete the information and violate the rule on Wikipedia:NPOV. -- FuriousFreddy 17:25, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Also, as far as this goes:
...the opinions of noted, published scholars are notable enough to be mentioned in an encyclopedia article. At the very least, remove mention of the book but keep the blurb about gay culture the way it was months beforehand. -- FuriousFreddy 17:45, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I am sorry my work has created so much chaos, but let's clear a couple of things up. It is absurd to claim that Batman "is" this or that, or to "defend" him. All I am doing is documenting one particular aspect of people's takes on this character, their readings of meaning and feeling into the story line, and the way that has played through cultures and subcultures. I am keeping to material that is written by serious scholars. Which brings me to my second point. It borders on comical for some of the contributors here to presume to pass judgement on the validity of recognized academics or entire branches of science. If you are going participate in the building of an encyclopeadia you will have to set aside your own opinions and do some serious study of existing science. If you block other users who are reporting on ongoing scholarly study because it runs against your personal opinions then you are simply catering to your personal comfort, which is not what this game is about. Prove me wrong, bring counterarguments from serious people, but don't censor me. It is my intent to create a short critical section - with appropriate illustrations - exploring a side to Batman's culturalization that was and is very important to a great many people, both young and old. I agreed here to integrate my work into an existing sub-section, as a gesture of collegiality. I did not agree to have my work subject to censorship. I grew up under communism, I have had enough of that. Haiduc 01:38, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I think it's very pathetic that something that started out innocent was wrenched into something perverse. Ereinion 18:36, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
I searched the topics noted in this section and it has come to my attention that every topic in that section has already been addressed in wikipedia in as much detail given in the section itself, it seems redundant. Such as Fredric Wertham's opinion on the sexuality of Batman and Robin, but Especially the paragraph containing "Batman is known as being..." which is not only partially out of place, but mostly redundant with information given in this very article! This whole section should be revamped to provide some kind of usefulness or it should be removed. It might be constructive to relocate the information in this section to other sub-sections which better fit the information given, and perhaps the information could be cut down to not be redundant but to also provide the user with the information and a link to the article on the subject, So they do not lose access to the information, but it no longer clutters up an article with redundancy. I thought since this would be such a big change, I should bring it to the attention to all the editors of this article before I touch anything. -- CaptainCrash 06:01, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I have come across a curious image
and I would be grateful for any help people could provide in identifying the comic book and the date of publication. By the way, I have also re-organized the article, pending any splitting, so as to make it more readable. Haiduc 00:25, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
In order to present this aspect of Batman culture it seems necessary to have:
1. An example of suggestive art (and I would prefer the panel identified by
CaptainCrash above, since we are mainly talking about the comic book medium), and
2. An example of "ousider" art - such as the kiss I originally posted or the Chamberlain kiss picture, showing how readers have taken this suggested aspect of Batman and expanded on it. Also, mention should be made of the studio's efforts to distance Batman from Robin as a reflection of societal changes in which men fooling around with boys went from amusing peccadillo to major crime.
i think it might be a significant edit to add in some of batman's other appearances. for instance, i think it would be an excellent idea to include mention of the multiple batman cameo appearences on Scooby Doo (or was it "scooby doo and friends?"), and the show Batman Beyond (which unfortunately is how most children today know batman). I feel that this artical focuses too heavily on the comic books, and doesnt offer a fair share of information for the predominantly TV/Movie fans of batman. -- Whiteknight 03:59, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
the relationship between batman and superman is mentioned several times in this artical, but is never truely explained. i worry that the topic of their relationship is too narrow a topic to warrant another page, but perhaps a short blurb on this artical to describe why in some media they are perfectly friendly, and in other media, they have more of an uneasy truce. i also think it might be worth disscussing in more depth how batman's lack of "super powers" works to his advantage and disadvantage in super hero groups such as Justice League. -- Whiteknight 04:10, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Relationship between Batman and Superman? Like Batman and Robin it appears that these two were quite gay. Panels from World's Finest #289 Panels from World's Finest #289 Is there any doubt? This should go into the main article immediately. Dyslexic agnostic 19:36, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
yeah! you are so right! you Are dyslexic!-- T for Trouble-maker 10:04, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
i made a page about his belt, Batman's Utility belt. i linked to it in this article where it mentions the belt, and im posting this in here, if anyone has anything to contribute to it feel free. -- CaptainCrash 05:36, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
It is taken out of context and being spun as a homosexual reference. I will continue to delete it if I see it. Liek I said earlier, if Superman saved Jimmy Olsen, that doesn't mean that it's possible evidence of a homosexual relationship, it's simply evidence of contact between two men. I have NO PROBLEM with the additions of the homosexual Batman ideas on this page, but taking panels out of context is too much. AriGold 15:18, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
I think the point of the panel is that it is exactly images like these that lead to the Batman-as-gay image, not, if this is one of the concerns going on here, as evidence that Batman is gay. Yeah, its taken out of context, and yeah, its being given a double meaning that likely wasn't intended (though wow, its not at all hard to see that double meaning there). But here's the deal as I see it. Most likely none of the writers meant to make Batman look gay. Nonetheless, people see panels like that and say, "wow! Hey, Batman and Robin - what's the deal there?" We've got a whole section with quotes and references talking about just that phenomenon. It makes sense to add an image if that image helps to explain what they're seeing, how they're seeing it, and why they come to the conclusions they come to. It doesn't make sense to add an image if that image is being used to encourage readers to come to the same conclusions these psychologists, theorists, etc. have come to. Getting readers to come to one or another conclusion isn't our business here. Explaining terms, events, icons, etc. is, and if an image can help us do that it should remain. - Seth Mahoney
I was asked by AriGold to comment here as someone new to the issue/neutral. My opinion is that if you are going to admit references to the Batman/Robin gay relationship, this panel is perfectly illustrative of the kind of comments that have given him such a reputation and, as such, it belongs in the article (as clearly supporting evidence). →Raul654 21:48, July 18, 2005 (UTC)
It doesn't matter at all whether the writers intended this to be a subtle joke or if they accidentally created the double entendre—in either case you can easily argue that it contributes to the Batman-is-gay image without ever veering into the realm of speculation. This panel has long been a source of snickering on the matter; Wikipedia isn't making that up on the spot. Of course we don't know what the writers' intent was, barring like, you know, evidence, rather than original research. So we shouldn't offer any opinion on that either way (my personal opinion is that the writer(s) knew perfectly well what they were doing here, but that's just how I think about it). I notice that the caption to the image is silent on that matter, so what's the problem here? 82.92.119.11 22:26, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
I have some serious problems with the caption being used.
The placement of Batman's reference to Robin at the end of a series of sexual innuendoes renders what by itself would be a reasonable parental reaction into a comical punch line with homoerotic overtones.
First of all, the previous comments really aren't a string of sexual innuendos. It just shows each of the main character being concerned about the person they care about most, I have a hard time seeing how you find sexual innuendo in that. The joke in this case seems to be mostly unintentional, it's been a www.superdickery.com reference as well and my understanding was that it was from a much older issue, trying to claim intent on the part of the author seems to be a bit much. Including the picture as a reference to some of the jokes or claims made about Batman is one thing, but the caption implies that this interpretation is the correct or intended one.-- BigCow 02:46, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
I agree with you Decius about Batman, Robin has also been portrayed only in heterosexual relationships such as the ones with batgirl and starfire so Robin is not gay either. Dick Grayson
User DrachenFyre restored the following text, which I had deleted:
"Initially, the "Bat-Man" was a violent avenger who carried a pistol and left his foes dead more often than not (similar to The Punisher)."
This statement is false or misleading as given. I looked at the earliest 11 stories (the ones preceding the debut of Robin) in my copy of Batman Archives #1.
In these stories, Batman did not carry or use a pistol except for one time when he was fighting vampires and needed a silver bullet.
It may be literally true that he left his foes more often dead than not (an exact count is hard--how do you count him fighting the same guy twice?), but when stated that way it's misleading. When Batman killed his foes it was in such ways as him hitting someone and the guy falling out a window, or into a tank of acid, or onto a sword, or such. Except for the vampires, who are monsters and not human beings, Batman notably does *not* shoot villains, say "I'm going to kill you" (except one time, when he left the guy alive!), choke people to death, chop their heads off, or otherwise show any evidence that he directly intends to kill anyone. He is certainly not like the Punisher, who does intentionally kill people.
There is an urban legend that Batman commonly carried a gun and intentionally killed people. It arose in the decades following the Golden Age, when it was impossible for most fans to get the original stories and prove the urban legend false. Now that those early stories have been reprinted, there is no reason for this falsehood to persist.
I'm deleting the text again. Please don't restore it unless you can support your claim. Ken Arromdee 14:12, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
I just looked again and he has a gun in the splash page of #35. However, this splash page isn't part of the story and he has no gun in the story itself.
Ken Arromdee 23:44, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
Batmans Age is one long time unsolved question which I finnaly found a comparative new answer to: In "Death & the Maidens #1" Bruce remembers his parents murder happend exactly 25 years before. This is disproportional accurate I think. And "Superman & Batman Secret Files & Origins 2003" states, that Bruce was 10 (not 8, as said in the article) while that happened. (He was 8, everyone knows that.--A_gx7)
<BR>
This only leaves two questions:
1. How much time passed since Death & the Maidens in DCU
2. Is there information, being newer than the sources named above proving or disproving this?
I know why my edit was reverted the first time (some of the bottom text was cut off), but I made sure that didnt happen the second time. What's so wrong with switching the Lee images, as the other one has a better focus on him (as opposed to the 608 cover, which shows him from the side)? -- DrBat 12:55, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
I think that the Lee image is fine as is. If you reference both the Superman and Wonder Woman pages, you'll see that their images are also profile images. Perhaps it is an underlying sign by dedicated comic fans to have the DC Trinity in similar poses? Whilst your other image is perfectly acceptable, the Lee image just seems to "fit". - DrachenFyre 17:13, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone else feel it is important to diclose that Terry McGuinness, Batman of the Future, is, genetically speaking, Bruce's son as revealed in the Justice League League Unlimited 3rd (or 5th depending how you count) season finale "Epilouge"? RandallFlagg 20:23, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
I don't really see a reason to have a link to a diffrent page almost every other word. So I'm going to edit them out unless they have something to do with the Batman mythos in someway. Whispering 21:45, 28 November 2005 (UTC) disambiguation link repair ( You can help!)