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This archive page covers approximately the dates between August 2006 and January 2007.
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Please add new archivals to Talk:Batman/Archive07. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. -- Ipstenu ( talk| contribs) 01:28, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I see him using his zipline/grappling hook thing all the time in the shows (whenever he needs to scale a building or falls out of one), but it's not mentioned at all in this article. I would put it in, but I don't know what its name is.
In the Batman TAS (the animated series) Batman is revealed to be an expert ventriloquist. He learrned his skills from Zatanna and is revealed in the episode "Read my Lips" of the animated series.
-G
I'm going to add another ability, "Photographic memory". It was made apparent in episode "Avatar", season two of Batmans TAS. Only looking at a scroll for a split second, Bruce had memorized the map on the scroll and was able to reach his destination.
Batman is seen as a criminal by the likes of Poison Ivy because of the negative effects brought about by Wayne Enterprises. The Joker, Two-Face, The Penguin, and others were created by being exposed to Wayne Chemicals. Wayne Enterprises sells weapons to the US military and can thus be seen as a war profiteer. Since Batman exists in a universe much like the real one you cannot expect his Wayne Oil division to be environmentally sound. So there it is -- Comic book characters are often more dynmaic than just "good" or "bad" -- "hero" -- or "villain". In fact, philosophically, Batman and Green Arrow have ideological arguments since Batman is pro-oligarchy and The Green Arrow takes the side of the working man. If you must delete the reality of the edit, at least create a new section for it such as Criticism of Batman's moral character by his foes and other heroes".
I was not the one who put in this line but it seems relevant as one of his weaknesses: "In Superman/Batman #8-13, he is willing to do whatever is "necessary" to destroy evil, including destroying an entire world of inhabitants." Furthermore... I think Wayne Enterprises HAVE caused much harm by the super-villains they've created such as The Joker, Clayface, etc. In the movie "Batman Begins" Bruce Wayne is thrown in prison for stealing food -- whcih is even more condemnation of his corporate culture. Poison Ivy is also very critical of the environmental devesttion caused by Wayne Enterprises (which is rather directly guided by Bruce Wayne).
Several Clayfaces exist but at least one, Basil Karlo (in an episode of "The Batman" entitled Clayfaces), broke into Wayne Industries, then he steals and drinks a sample of the Clayface mutagen. As for the Joker it is temporarily unconfirmed whether or not it was actually a Wayne Chemicals vat which the Joker (previously known as the Red Hood) was pushed into by Batman - but it was in Gotham where Wayne Enterprises is heavily entrenched as the number one industrial employer (and Wayne Chemicals is a branch of Wayne Industries). One origin has the Joker as an employee of a chemical plant (like Wayne Chemicals) and this would be just another Wayne Enterprises employee to turn into a super-villian (like Mr.Freeze, Edward Nigma, Poison Ivy, etc.) And the crime illustrated in the film is not that he stole food but that he (Bruce Wayne) retained so much wealth while others where starving and thrown in prison for crimesl like stealing food. Poison Ivy as an extreme environmentalist faults several of Wayne Enterprises divisions most popularly in the Batman&Robin movie. In any case, mining and oil drilling and refining are environemtnally destructive activities which Wayne Enterprises are involved. Furthermore it is confirmed that Wayne Enterprises is in the business of manufacturing and distributing hi-tech weapons (which is also of dubious moral character).
Being called a hero after acting as judge, jury, and executioner is also POV (moreso as I see it). The Environmental consequences in the DC world (which is very much like the real world) are likely to be similiar -- and HAVE IN FACT BEEN CITED by the militant environmentalist Poison Ivy. Manufacturing and distributing hi-tech weapons IS UNDOUBTEDLY of dubious moral character. He's an arms dealer for goodness sake! Similiar crimes by Lex Luthor through Lexcorp. are not so easily dismissed and ignored -- they make make Lex Luthor a villain! So the onus of POV seems to fall on those who claim it's criminal for one and not for the other because one is a "super-villian" and the other is a "super-hero."
Yes, but since he and his universe are being talked about extensively to encompass all the facts involved with them -- all the facts should be presented. I think it's funny how you accept the homosexuality debate because that is a concept people have of him but you don't except him as an oligarchic elitist protecting his own interests (because no one apparently conceives of him as such?).
OK... so Poison Ivy and the Joker both stating in the Batman Universe why the believe Batman and Wayne Enterprises to be villainous is not a credible source for a topic heading (near the homosexuality debate at the bottom of the page) and Wayne Enterprises can be called green and environmentnally sound despite (again depite Poison Ivy's points to the contrary) but these claims can not be edited out or countered by any sort of balance? Idealogical differences with other heroes can not even be used to secure this topics creation? The creation of other criminals is not a valid complaint against Wayn Enterprises (which must be presented as green and heroic)? Arms manufacturing and distribution can not be called morally dubious even though many verifiable people feel otherwise and it is actually one of the reasons that undoubtedly makes Lex Luthor a criminal? Why can only good things be said about Batman, Bruce Wayne, and Wayne Enterprises -- despite what people in and out of the fictional universe believe?
I would appreciate it if each of these points was addressed (rather than pushed aside and dismissed out of hand) so that I can work towards keeping the section entitled "Batman as a villian" between the Batman villains section and the Homosexuality debate (which I see is now being dismantled as well).
Nihilozero 18:57, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
I have provided movie sources (which are allowed in the discussion elsewhere and in articles about other characters). They may need to be technically edited but the sources I did provide are real. What I am dealing with here is that only good things can be said about the "hero" despite contrary opinions from within the universe. And then good things are allowed to be said on the Wayne Enterprises page (like about the sound environmental practices) even though characters I cited (who and in which media souce) completely contradicted the wholesome goodness of Wayne Enterprises. As for such things like manufacturing hi-tech mlitary weaopons and distributing them, you can pretend that no one finds that morally dubious, but presumably that is the sort of thing that maks Lex Luthor a villain -- but because it's Batman and Wayne Enterprises it's ok (despite cited criticism from within and outside the univers). In the interest of thorough balance you would think that someone here would look at Batman imprtially and tell me what criticism of him I would be able to use from within his ficticious and from without (and I have indeed cited if you'll merely look in this discussion even). Nihilozero 19:31, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
This is a complete red herring you've created here in the form of a straw man. I did not, in any way, suggest that my edits do not need to be cited since the greenwashing pro-Wayne side didn't cite theirs. I cited Poison Ivy (who is a militant environmentalist in the comic) from the movie Batman&Robin as having criticized Wayne Enterprises destructive corporate practices. This criticsm was not allowed and my editing out the greenwashing portion was restored on the Wayne Enterprises page. This is only one minor point but I think it illustrates the problem as a whole very nicely. Only nice things are allowed to be said about the "hero" Batman and any criticism or contrary views will be edited out. Nihilozero 19:53, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
It's been a few days and I replaced the Batman as villain section with several citations including one from someone who outed him as a corporate criminal guilty of insider trading. It may need to be cleaned up but several sources are cited.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Nihilzero ( talk • contribs)
That's exactly the point. Despite characters within his own fictional universe (including other heroes) drawing attention to his less than heoic activities, he is still only allowed to be presented, unquestionably, as a one-diminesional heroic character. Those things he does wrong are dismissed even when other characters are known as villains for for doing the same things. It's really about cultural indoctrination but wiki is supposed to present facts and not cultural bias. If you look at the history of the "Batman/Bruce Wayne as a villian" section you will see that it is heavily cited from comic books, the movies, the animated series, and others. In the interest of fairness and balance the section should be allowed to stay. In fact, others should help me restore it and keep it on the page even if they are a fan of Batman. Nihilozero 20:24, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh, well... you're obviously wrong. It's relevant because it deals with the complex character of "the Batman" about whom this page is written. It's certainly accurate as my citations prove. And who are you to determine what anyone elses interests are? Just because you are a fan of the pop culture presentation of Batman does not mean that comic book characters aren't complex characters who sometimes transcend the common ideas of good and evil. Nihilozero 23:47, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
You seem to be mistaking majority and popular opinion for fact -- which it is not. And the "obviously wrong" was in response to a particular point about anyONE. You people very often do not seem to care about accuracy, details or specifics. Maybe it's just when your hero is in question but perhaps you should recuse yourself if you can't be an impartial judge. Or maybe you're just taking issue with this because you see others have? I've dealt with the early complaints -- particularly in regard to citations and original research. I'll note that at least one editor, gdo01, has stated that the section would be ok. I take this editor as being impartial while most of the rest seem like fanboys. Nihilozero 06:07, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
How can ALL my heavily cited edits not be accurate or verifiable? You are not giving me any slack here! Has he ever been guilty of any sort of crime ever? Has anyone ever pointed out those crimes inside and outside of Batman's ficitonal universe? Your position seems to be that Batman is a hero period. But modern comic book characters are often complex with their criminal dark sides. I can admit that Batman has saved the day more than once -- but that does not mean I will only point out those times and omit from mention any of his crimes. Nihilozero 15:50, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, I know my latest edit was riddled with cited fact but the entire section still gets removed. So, in answer to your question -- NO! I'd prefer if you did not remove my latest edits because I have fixed problemd with them and now am dealing with biased POV from the fans of Batman. Nihilozero 14:47, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Ok, let's look at this:
Other media depiction, and the argument is being made by an insane supervillain. Her gripe is also specifically with Wayne Enterprises. it's not like Bruce Wayne ordered them to destroy the environment.
Fan interpretation on a blog. Not a credible source.
Context please. Just because he decides to kill someone to protect a villain doesn't mean he is one.
Once again, other media. Once again, having a gripe with Wayne Enterprises does not = Bruce Wayne is a villain
Alternate timeline that was fixed. WesleyDodds 03:11, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for being a little more specific than most but here's why I think each point is valid:
Do we really need it to be organized in this way, with everything in subcategories? -- Chris Griswold 04:43, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I've got some concerns about the recently added "Timeline of Batman".
While my fanboy side always likes these fictional chronologies, I don't think they really belong at Wikipedia — but I'd like to hear other opinions before I remove somebody's hard work. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 00:20, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
In current DC Comics, it has been 13 years since Superman and Batman emerged. -- Chris Griswold 22:01, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
In addition, several writers and editors of Batman have agreed in the past that they will not try to age the character in any way (Frank Miller broke this rule, but Dark Knight Returns and Dark Knight Strikes Again are Elseworlds canon and not mainstream continuity). Look at Spider-Man, he's married to MJ and he's only early to mid twenties. He was 16 when he got his powers and not much has passed since then. The One Year Later storyline is the furthest Batman will be aging to 40. He's only 34-36 as of now, and if they feel he's getting old, the writers will just retcon any little detail. Come on, they've always done this, such as the Spoiler from dying thanks to Leslie Thompkins witholding treatment to "torture and pain from Black Mask," according to sources after Infinite Crisis. By the way, they should clear up this little dangling plot thread. Should they bring Dr. Thompkins back and have Batman forgive her? Will she expose who he is if he threatens to have her arrested? What was the real cause of death? Hopefully, this will be explained later on.
Anyways, look at Superman in Dark Knight Returns. He doesn't even look older, he looks like a thirty-something year old man in his prime. Supes will always be in his thirties, and same with Batman. So Chris Griswold, if you say that Batman has been around for 13 years, he must have been started around in his early twenties like 22 or 23, he must be 36, according to you. However, the whole team at DC Comics interprets Batman in his thirties, so that's about the jist of it.
Wait, Chris, how did you get your answers off a home-made Happy Meal box? -- Jonathan.Bruce 12:50, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Should this really replace the "See Also" section? Should it be so large and unplesant-looking? Should it be located at {{ The Batman}} instead of {{ Batman}}? Find out next week, same bat-time, same bat-channel. -- Chris Griswold 00:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Please follow this link Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Comics/templates/navboxes to join in on the discussion . -- Basique 12:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Adam West appears as Batman in all manner of things, especially voice work in animation.
The 1966 movie was a direct spin-off of the on-going series.
As such the relationship between the show is significant.
The connection between West and the role (in this case) isn't.
Duggy 1138 14:08, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Whoever started the "Batman is not a superhero as a result of his lack of super-powers. His resourcefulness, insight, and years of rigorous training hardly make up for the absence of any special abilities" changes, please knock it off. Thank you.-- Cnjartist 21:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
The Superhero article itself says that it doesn't have to mean superpowers. Also, try not to delete other people's comments. I put Cnjartists's back in. -- Ipstenu ( talk| contribs) 00:55, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
After all that fuss yesterday, looking at the "See Also" section I think it need a major re-edit. We the two subsections combined to make it more workable.
I'm going to make the changes just to see how it looks, hoping not to be called a vandal in the process, and perfectly happy to see it be reverted back imediately.
Duggy 1138 05:46, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
How come their no talk of it? i think it should be meantion —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Supermike ( talk • contribs) 22:39, August 19, 2006 (UTC)
I totally agree. This is about the character who originated in comic books but has since appeared in various other mediums with the same name, abilities, and general world. Unfortunately that would taint the pristine view of Batman that some of the fans who edit this page have. As it is they will not allow events that occurred in other timelines to be mentioned or any criticism of Batman by characters in the movies (even if this is consistent with characters in the comic book). Nihilozero 05:47, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I guess this joke never gets old for you as you've apparently used it before. It's very witty. Wow. Ha. Anyway... you never really addressed the point I was making which WAS and IS: The Batman page is about the character BATMAN who originated in comic books but has since appeared in other media with the same characteristics. Therefore... the other media representations of Batman OUGHT to be allowed as a source for information about the character on that characters page. Kittens. You're a funny guy. Did you think of that all by yourself? Nihilozero 06:16, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I didn't mean to suggest that "in-universe" meant "DC Universe". What I was referring to was odd sentences like "Batman's first intercompany crossover is with Marvel's Hulk." This sentence is really about the publishing history of the character, not his fictional history, and so should be in the past tense. Fiction exists in the "eternal present", but the publication of a specific comic book is an event at a fixed point in history, and so should be in the past tense: Batman's first intercompany crossover was with Marvel's Hulk, and in that story the two fight the Joker and the Shaper of Worlds. It's a bit difficult, since the paragraph shifts back and forth between speaking about the character as a property (real-world, past tense) and within a fictional context ("in-universe", present tense). Perhaps the "crossovers" section should be rewritten more thoroughly to put it all in an out-of-universe perspective? — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 18:21, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
"Unsurprisingly, the body count eventually published Batman stories is quite high"
Grammar seems a bit odd here - any suggestions?
I think my point was mis-understood. I'm not saying that Kate/Batwoman isn't alive and well OYL, and I'm not saying she's not in the JLA. I'm saying that until she shows up in the comic pages, not the cover, her 'status' is speculative. That cover also has Supergirl and Green Arrow, neither of whom are likely to be in the new JLA at this moment in time. She has the potential to be in the new JLA, but until it's confirmed in the pages of the comic, it's speculation. Probable speculation. Likely speculation. Speculation I happen to agree with. But that doesn't make it not speculation. -- Ipstenu ( talk| contribs) 17:42, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
There is not a single photo of Bruce Wayne in the entire article. Shouldn't one be included?
yes.there should be a photo of bruce- Demon laffy 20:32, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree. What's Batman without Bruce Wayne? There should be a picture of Bruce.- SSJ Gokan 20:34, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
If you do so, might I suggest a *drawing* from a comic and not a *photo*? Pictures of actors playing Bruce Wayne just don't look like anything but the actor wearing a tux, and there isn't anything about a photo of an actor that would improve the article. ~CS 02:14, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I think that there should be a section covering the "family" like bat group. How his sidekicks represent sons and/or daughters. Or Alfred as his father. Anyone agree? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.186.131.51 ( talk • contribs)
We already have that under supporting characters, which also points to Batman supporting characters. Please sign your posts in the future (with ~~~~) -- Ipstenu ( talk| contribs) 17:21, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
PLEASE DON'T REVERT IT WITHOUT REASON. I added a few sentences about the "Bat God" interpretation of Batmans character. As the currently popular interpretation of the characters abilities I think it at least deserves a mention. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.31.244.93 ( talk • contribs) .
I'm gonna take this out because at this point it seems very speculative. Because this is part of an ongoing storyline, there is no way of knowing if this character is indeed going to be a "Supporting character" or not. A published comic isn't even cited, but rather a solicitation. Besides, there is a separate article for that very topic and if it belongs anywhere it's there. CovenantD 02:35, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
While it remains possible to view these actions as a means by which Batman is deluding himself about his own homosexuality, any interpretation of Batman and Robin's sexual orientation as gay or straight is ultimately subjective.'
Huh?!? This is at the end of a section that includes nearly every creator denying it, and listing examples of relationships. How is this conclusion reached? -- Steven Fisher 17:00, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Sounds like a neutrality attempt. I think we should simply say Batman is generally not intended to be a gay character. Wiki-newbie 17:08, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't think the article needs to do anything more than document the incident involving Wetham and paranoia that DC was somehow trying to turn impressionable American youth gay, and DC's response to that, and something on the continuing issue (the reference to the two recent cases of DC refusing the use of pictures shows it's still alive and DC is still touchy about it, which is relevant to the article). Robin's costume is largely irrelevant, and the quotes from Alan Grant and George Clooney are ultimately just personal opinions. However, as this debates going, I'd say that it's been taken far too literally. A homosexual reading of Batman would not necessarily be that the character is gay within the fictional world of the story, but that the story is about homosexualiy on a thematic or allegorical level. We've only seen explicitly gay X-Men in the past few years and most of the X-Men characters were clearly intended to be heterosexual. However, the reading of the X-Men story as being an allegory about homosexuality is fairly widespread and dates from the very start of the series. It's not a particularly wild leap to wonder if Batman, a story written in the 1930s-1950s about a man leading a double life, has a gay subtext. I personally wouldn't read it that way, but it's a perfectly valid reading and one common to a lot of stories from the period with that element of duality and hidden identities. 172.143.75.115 06:06, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I rewrote to this:
It's a bit off-point, but if we accept Bats was first, a bit of context isn't out of line, I don't think. K? Trekphiler 06:29, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
I added this:
Daniels credits Finger. Trekphiler 09:52, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
The article says:
Now, maybe I don't get it amid all the retconning, but, given Bats' early history, I don't see the problem...& I'd add that fact, except for all the retconning... Trekphiler 10:10, 14 October 2006 (UTC)\
Does this warrant having its own article? -- Robocoder ( t| c) 10:59, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Since Chris Griswold seems to have such a beef with my "style" in this
I invite him, or anyone else, to fix it, rather than changing what I said. ( Chris Griswold will, I hope, notice, I do not abbreviate.) Trekphiler 09:34, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
The anonymous individual who keeps re-inserting this material about Batman as villain repeatedly does so, making the same errors again and again, including but not limited to these issues:
Notice how many different editors have been reverting/fixing this. Doczilla 21:05, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
The article is about BATMAN. He originated in the comic books but he has since moved to other media and, like other characters on other pages, those sources of information are valid -- so your first bullet point is invalidated (along with your second about the animated series).
As for the anonymity... I'm new and sometimes I forget to sign in. The points remain valid in any case as anonymous authors ARE allowed to contribute to edits. Nihilozero 05:52, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm thinking of taking a crack at revamping this. It's arranged oddly; the creation of the character is the first thing mentioned, but then there's a "Character origins" section below "Evolution of the character". Also, the "Evolution of the character" section seems somewhat redundant with the fictional biography. I can take time out to work on this tomorrow (I've got my copy of Batman: The Complete History handy after letting it collect dust on my bookshelf for over a year), so if anyone has any issues or wants to help out, let's hear it. WesleyDodds 10:28, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
True, I always feel Publishing History should really service the Character Biography, although certainly DKR should be mentioned given it's impact, canon or not. Wiki-newbie 11:05, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Good job on whoever's reorganised it! Wiki-newbie 17:11, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
The article is an older Featured Article and may not cut today's standards. Needs work in inline referencing department, maybe suffers from recentism too. Solid article though, hits the bases. Hiding Talk 22:09, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Do we really need the bit about crossover appearances on this page? WesleyDodds 06:25, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I gave it a neat clean-up. Considering it's not canon, we don't have to be too specific with the stories. Wiki-newbie 15:55, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Aaaah. I see what you mean, WesleyDodds. And nicely done, Wiki-newbie! -- Ipstenu ( talk| contribs) 16:35, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I strongly think it should be noted in the article that he's known as the "Caped Crusader", and the "Dark Knight Detective". I don't care where, though I prefer the infobox. The trouble is that we should differentiate between these nom de plumes, and the true aliases of Matches Mallone, and Sir Hemmingford Gray. Btw, regarding the latter: I believe it's "Lord" (while it also may be "Sir"). This was the alias he used while recouperating in England (of an actual Lord who had been gone for some time in Africa) during Knightquest: the Search (which eventually resolved the Shondra Kinsolving sub-plots). - jc37 04:27, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
[ [2]]
While I wouldn't doubt it, does anyone have verification that Batman has a photographic memory? I don't believe I've ever read that he does (in a canon comic, anyway), but he does certainly have a good memory for detail. - Switch t 09:06, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me, but there's a link to Kal-L at top of the Golden Age section of the Superman article. Why shouldn't there be a link to the analogous character in the same place in this article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by A gx7 ( talk • contribs) 12:05, 7 December 2006 (UTC).
I'm not even sure E2 Bats needs his own page, looking at how small it is... -- Ipstenu ( talk| contribs) 18:09, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I disagree that it's small, and it contains information that isn't in this article. There's almost 20 years of publication history that could be added to it. Surely this warrants an article with a link from this one?-- A gx7 03:25, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Speaking of un-needed pages, I changed Bruce Wayne to redirect here for a couple reasons. First, all the information is in this article. There's no big psyche split between Bruce and Batman. Bruce is Batman. Always has been, always will be (52 be damned!). While almost everyone can agree that Clark and Superman are almost separate identities from each other, this can't be said of Bruce/Batman, and we should keep the information together. I don't feel it's a logical split, so I'm being bold and reverting :) -- Ipstenu ( talk| contribs) 18:22, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
The remark about "While it remains possible, through deconstruction and re-interpretation, to view these actions as a means by which Batman is deluding himself about his own homosexuality," seems a touch ridiculous, as, with that sort of prefacing, we could add such a rationale, not to mention awkward and possibly original research, to nearly any article that may include some ambiguous relationship between two males. That this occurs on a featured article without any [insofar as I can see] justification is somewhat strange. russ. 08:13, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
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This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This archive page covers approximately the dates between August 2006 and January 2007.
Post replies to the main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary.
Please add new archivals to Talk:Batman/Archive07. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. -- Ipstenu ( talk| contribs) 01:28, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I see him using his zipline/grappling hook thing all the time in the shows (whenever he needs to scale a building or falls out of one), but it's not mentioned at all in this article. I would put it in, but I don't know what its name is.
In the Batman TAS (the animated series) Batman is revealed to be an expert ventriloquist. He learrned his skills from Zatanna and is revealed in the episode "Read my Lips" of the animated series.
-G
I'm going to add another ability, "Photographic memory". It was made apparent in episode "Avatar", season two of Batmans TAS. Only looking at a scroll for a split second, Bruce had memorized the map on the scroll and was able to reach his destination.
Batman is seen as a criminal by the likes of Poison Ivy because of the negative effects brought about by Wayne Enterprises. The Joker, Two-Face, The Penguin, and others were created by being exposed to Wayne Chemicals. Wayne Enterprises sells weapons to the US military and can thus be seen as a war profiteer. Since Batman exists in a universe much like the real one you cannot expect his Wayne Oil division to be environmentally sound. So there it is -- Comic book characters are often more dynmaic than just "good" or "bad" -- "hero" -- or "villain". In fact, philosophically, Batman and Green Arrow have ideological arguments since Batman is pro-oligarchy and The Green Arrow takes the side of the working man. If you must delete the reality of the edit, at least create a new section for it such as Criticism of Batman's moral character by his foes and other heroes".
I was not the one who put in this line but it seems relevant as one of his weaknesses: "In Superman/Batman #8-13, he is willing to do whatever is "necessary" to destroy evil, including destroying an entire world of inhabitants." Furthermore... I think Wayne Enterprises HAVE caused much harm by the super-villains they've created such as The Joker, Clayface, etc. In the movie "Batman Begins" Bruce Wayne is thrown in prison for stealing food -- whcih is even more condemnation of his corporate culture. Poison Ivy is also very critical of the environmental devesttion caused by Wayne Enterprises (which is rather directly guided by Bruce Wayne).
Several Clayfaces exist but at least one, Basil Karlo (in an episode of "The Batman" entitled Clayfaces), broke into Wayne Industries, then he steals and drinks a sample of the Clayface mutagen. As for the Joker it is temporarily unconfirmed whether or not it was actually a Wayne Chemicals vat which the Joker (previously known as the Red Hood) was pushed into by Batman - but it was in Gotham where Wayne Enterprises is heavily entrenched as the number one industrial employer (and Wayne Chemicals is a branch of Wayne Industries). One origin has the Joker as an employee of a chemical plant (like Wayne Chemicals) and this would be just another Wayne Enterprises employee to turn into a super-villian (like Mr.Freeze, Edward Nigma, Poison Ivy, etc.) And the crime illustrated in the film is not that he stole food but that he (Bruce Wayne) retained so much wealth while others where starving and thrown in prison for crimesl like stealing food. Poison Ivy as an extreme environmentalist faults several of Wayne Enterprises divisions most popularly in the Batman&Robin movie. In any case, mining and oil drilling and refining are environemtnally destructive activities which Wayne Enterprises are involved. Furthermore it is confirmed that Wayne Enterprises is in the business of manufacturing and distributing hi-tech weapons (which is also of dubious moral character).
Being called a hero after acting as judge, jury, and executioner is also POV (moreso as I see it). The Environmental consequences in the DC world (which is very much like the real world) are likely to be similiar -- and HAVE IN FACT BEEN CITED by the militant environmentalist Poison Ivy. Manufacturing and distributing hi-tech weapons IS UNDOUBTEDLY of dubious moral character. He's an arms dealer for goodness sake! Similiar crimes by Lex Luthor through Lexcorp. are not so easily dismissed and ignored -- they make make Lex Luthor a villain! So the onus of POV seems to fall on those who claim it's criminal for one and not for the other because one is a "super-villian" and the other is a "super-hero."
Yes, but since he and his universe are being talked about extensively to encompass all the facts involved with them -- all the facts should be presented. I think it's funny how you accept the homosexuality debate because that is a concept people have of him but you don't except him as an oligarchic elitist protecting his own interests (because no one apparently conceives of him as such?).
OK... so Poison Ivy and the Joker both stating in the Batman Universe why the believe Batman and Wayne Enterprises to be villainous is not a credible source for a topic heading (near the homosexuality debate at the bottom of the page) and Wayne Enterprises can be called green and environmentnally sound despite (again depite Poison Ivy's points to the contrary) but these claims can not be edited out or countered by any sort of balance? Idealogical differences with other heroes can not even be used to secure this topics creation? The creation of other criminals is not a valid complaint against Wayn Enterprises (which must be presented as green and heroic)? Arms manufacturing and distribution can not be called morally dubious even though many verifiable people feel otherwise and it is actually one of the reasons that undoubtedly makes Lex Luthor a criminal? Why can only good things be said about Batman, Bruce Wayne, and Wayne Enterprises -- despite what people in and out of the fictional universe believe?
I would appreciate it if each of these points was addressed (rather than pushed aside and dismissed out of hand) so that I can work towards keeping the section entitled "Batman as a villian" between the Batman villains section and the Homosexuality debate (which I see is now being dismantled as well).
Nihilozero 18:57, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
I have provided movie sources (which are allowed in the discussion elsewhere and in articles about other characters). They may need to be technically edited but the sources I did provide are real. What I am dealing with here is that only good things can be said about the "hero" despite contrary opinions from within the universe. And then good things are allowed to be said on the Wayne Enterprises page (like about the sound environmental practices) even though characters I cited (who and in which media souce) completely contradicted the wholesome goodness of Wayne Enterprises. As for such things like manufacturing hi-tech mlitary weaopons and distributing them, you can pretend that no one finds that morally dubious, but presumably that is the sort of thing that maks Lex Luthor a villain -- but because it's Batman and Wayne Enterprises it's ok (despite cited criticism from within and outside the univers). In the interest of thorough balance you would think that someone here would look at Batman imprtially and tell me what criticism of him I would be able to use from within his ficticious and from without (and I have indeed cited if you'll merely look in this discussion even). Nihilozero 19:31, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
This is a complete red herring you've created here in the form of a straw man. I did not, in any way, suggest that my edits do not need to be cited since the greenwashing pro-Wayne side didn't cite theirs. I cited Poison Ivy (who is a militant environmentalist in the comic) from the movie Batman&Robin as having criticized Wayne Enterprises destructive corporate practices. This criticsm was not allowed and my editing out the greenwashing portion was restored on the Wayne Enterprises page. This is only one minor point but I think it illustrates the problem as a whole very nicely. Only nice things are allowed to be said about the "hero" Batman and any criticism or contrary views will be edited out. Nihilozero 19:53, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
It's been a few days and I replaced the Batman as villain section with several citations including one from someone who outed him as a corporate criminal guilty of insider trading. It may need to be cleaned up but several sources are cited.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Nihilzero ( talk • contribs)
That's exactly the point. Despite characters within his own fictional universe (including other heroes) drawing attention to his less than heoic activities, he is still only allowed to be presented, unquestionably, as a one-diminesional heroic character. Those things he does wrong are dismissed even when other characters are known as villains for for doing the same things. It's really about cultural indoctrination but wiki is supposed to present facts and not cultural bias. If you look at the history of the "Batman/Bruce Wayne as a villian" section you will see that it is heavily cited from comic books, the movies, the animated series, and others. In the interest of fairness and balance the section should be allowed to stay. In fact, others should help me restore it and keep it on the page even if they are a fan of Batman. Nihilozero 20:24, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh, well... you're obviously wrong. It's relevant because it deals with the complex character of "the Batman" about whom this page is written. It's certainly accurate as my citations prove. And who are you to determine what anyone elses interests are? Just because you are a fan of the pop culture presentation of Batman does not mean that comic book characters aren't complex characters who sometimes transcend the common ideas of good and evil. Nihilozero 23:47, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
You seem to be mistaking majority and popular opinion for fact -- which it is not. And the "obviously wrong" was in response to a particular point about anyONE. You people very often do not seem to care about accuracy, details or specifics. Maybe it's just when your hero is in question but perhaps you should recuse yourself if you can't be an impartial judge. Or maybe you're just taking issue with this because you see others have? I've dealt with the early complaints -- particularly in regard to citations and original research. I'll note that at least one editor, gdo01, has stated that the section would be ok. I take this editor as being impartial while most of the rest seem like fanboys. Nihilozero 06:07, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
How can ALL my heavily cited edits not be accurate or verifiable? You are not giving me any slack here! Has he ever been guilty of any sort of crime ever? Has anyone ever pointed out those crimes inside and outside of Batman's ficitonal universe? Your position seems to be that Batman is a hero period. But modern comic book characters are often complex with their criminal dark sides. I can admit that Batman has saved the day more than once -- but that does not mean I will only point out those times and omit from mention any of his crimes. Nihilozero 15:50, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, I know my latest edit was riddled with cited fact but the entire section still gets removed. So, in answer to your question -- NO! I'd prefer if you did not remove my latest edits because I have fixed problemd with them and now am dealing with biased POV from the fans of Batman. Nihilozero 14:47, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Ok, let's look at this:
Other media depiction, and the argument is being made by an insane supervillain. Her gripe is also specifically with Wayne Enterprises. it's not like Bruce Wayne ordered them to destroy the environment.
Fan interpretation on a blog. Not a credible source.
Context please. Just because he decides to kill someone to protect a villain doesn't mean he is one.
Once again, other media. Once again, having a gripe with Wayne Enterprises does not = Bruce Wayne is a villain
Alternate timeline that was fixed. WesleyDodds 03:11, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for being a little more specific than most but here's why I think each point is valid:
Do we really need it to be organized in this way, with everything in subcategories? -- Chris Griswold 04:43, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I've got some concerns about the recently added "Timeline of Batman".
While my fanboy side always likes these fictional chronologies, I don't think they really belong at Wikipedia — but I'd like to hear other opinions before I remove somebody's hard work. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 00:20, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
In current DC Comics, it has been 13 years since Superman and Batman emerged. -- Chris Griswold 22:01, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
In addition, several writers and editors of Batman have agreed in the past that they will not try to age the character in any way (Frank Miller broke this rule, but Dark Knight Returns and Dark Knight Strikes Again are Elseworlds canon and not mainstream continuity). Look at Spider-Man, he's married to MJ and he's only early to mid twenties. He was 16 when he got his powers and not much has passed since then. The One Year Later storyline is the furthest Batman will be aging to 40. He's only 34-36 as of now, and if they feel he's getting old, the writers will just retcon any little detail. Come on, they've always done this, such as the Spoiler from dying thanks to Leslie Thompkins witholding treatment to "torture and pain from Black Mask," according to sources after Infinite Crisis. By the way, they should clear up this little dangling plot thread. Should they bring Dr. Thompkins back and have Batman forgive her? Will she expose who he is if he threatens to have her arrested? What was the real cause of death? Hopefully, this will be explained later on.
Anyways, look at Superman in Dark Knight Returns. He doesn't even look older, he looks like a thirty-something year old man in his prime. Supes will always be in his thirties, and same with Batman. So Chris Griswold, if you say that Batman has been around for 13 years, he must have been started around in his early twenties like 22 or 23, he must be 36, according to you. However, the whole team at DC Comics interprets Batman in his thirties, so that's about the jist of it.
Wait, Chris, how did you get your answers off a home-made Happy Meal box? -- Jonathan.Bruce 12:50, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Should this really replace the "See Also" section? Should it be so large and unplesant-looking? Should it be located at {{ The Batman}} instead of {{ Batman}}? Find out next week, same bat-time, same bat-channel. -- Chris Griswold 00:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Please follow this link Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Comics/templates/navboxes to join in on the discussion . -- Basique 12:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Adam West appears as Batman in all manner of things, especially voice work in animation.
The 1966 movie was a direct spin-off of the on-going series.
As such the relationship between the show is significant.
The connection between West and the role (in this case) isn't.
Duggy 1138 14:08, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Whoever started the "Batman is not a superhero as a result of his lack of super-powers. His resourcefulness, insight, and years of rigorous training hardly make up for the absence of any special abilities" changes, please knock it off. Thank you.-- Cnjartist 21:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
The Superhero article itself says that it doesn't have to mean superpowers. Also, try not to delete other people's comments. I put Cnjartists's back in. -- Ipstenu ( talk| contribs) 00:55, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
After all that fuss yesterday, looking at the "See Also" section I think it need a major re-edit. We the two subsections combined to make it more workable.
I'm going to make the changes just to see how it looks, hoping not to be called a vandal in the process, and perfectly happy to see it be reverted back imediately.
Duggy 1138 05:46, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
How come their no talk of it? i think it should be meantion —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Supermike ( talk • contribs) 22:39, August 19, 2006 (UTC)
I totally agree. This is about the character who originated in comic books but has since appeared in various other mediums with the same name, abilities, and general world. Unfortunately that would taint the pristine view of Batman that some of the fans who edit this page have. As it is they will not allow events that occurred in other timelines to be mentioned or any criticism of Batman by characters in the movies (even if this is consistent with characters in the comic book). Nihilozero 05:47, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I guess this joke never gets old for you as you've apparently used it before. It's very witty. Wow. Ha. Anyway... you never really addressed the point I was making which WAS and IS: The Batman page is about the character BATMAN who originated in comic books but has since appeared in other media with the same characteristics. Therefore... the other media representations of Batman OUGHT to be allowed as a source for information about the character on that characters page. Kittens. You're a funny guy. Did you think of that all by yourself? Nihilozero 06:16, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I didn't mean to suggest that "in-universe" meant "DC Universe". What I was referring to was odd sentences like "Batman's first intercompany crossover is with Marvel's Hulk." This sentence is really about the publishing history of the character, not his fictional history, and so should be in the past tense. Fiction exists in the "eternal present", but the publication of a specific comic book is an event at a fixed point in history, and so should be in the past tense: Batman's first intercompany crossover was with Marvel's Hulk, and in that story the two fight the Joker and the Shaper of Worlds. It's a bit difficult, since the paragraph shifts back and forth between speaking about the character as a property (real-world, past tense) and within a fictional context ("in-universe", present tense). Perhaps the "crossovers" section should be rewritten more thoroughly to put it all in an out-of-universe perspective? — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 18:21, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
"Unsurprisingly, the body count eventually published Batman stories is quite high"
Grammar seems a bit odd here - any suggestions?
I think my point was mis-understood. I'm not saying that Kate/Batwoman isn't alive and well OYL, and I'm not saying she's not in the JLA. I'm saying that until she shows up in the comic pages, not the cover, her 'status' is speculative. That cover also has Supergirl and Green Arrow, neither of whom are likely to be in the new JLA at this moment in time. She has the potential to be in the new JLA, but until it's confirmed in the pages of the comic, it's speculation. Probable speculation. Likely speculation. Speculation I happen to agree with. But that doesn't make it not speculation. -- Ipstenu ( talk| contribs) 17:42, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
There is not a single photo of Bruce Wayne in the entire article. Shouldn't one be included?
yes.there should be a photo of bruce- Demon laffy 20:32, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree. What's Batman without Bruce Wayne? There should be a picture of Bruce.- SSJ Gokan 20:34, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
If you do so, might I suggest a *drawing* from a comic and not a *photo*? Pictures of actors playing Bruce Wayne just don't look like anything but the actor wearing a tux, and there isn't anything about a photo of an actor that would improve the article. ~CS 02:14, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I think that there should be a section covering the "family" like bat group. How his sidekicks represent sons and/or daughters. Or Alfred as his father. Anyone agree? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.186.131.51 ( talk • contribs)
We already have that under supporting characters, which also points to Batman supporting characters. Please sign your posts in the future (with ~~~~) -- Ipstenu ( talk| contribs) 17:21, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
PLEASE DON'T REVERT IT WITHOUT REASON. I added a few sentences about the "Bat God" interpretation of Batmans character. As the currently popular interpretation of the characters abilities I think it at least deserves a mention. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.31.244.93 ( talk • contribs) .
I'm gonna take this out because at this point it seems very speculative. Because this is part of an ongoing storyline, there is no way of knowing if this character is indeed going to be a "Supporting character" or not. A published comic isn't even cited, but rather a solicitation. Besides, there is a separate article for that very topic and if it belongs anywhere it's there. CovenantD 02:35, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
While it remains possible to view these actions as a means by which Batman is deluding himself about his own homosexuality, any interpretation of Batman and Robin's sexual orientation as gay or straight is ultimately subjective.'
Huh?!? This is at the end of a section that includes nearly every creator denying it, and listing examples of relationships. How is this conclusion reached? -- Steven Fisher 17:00, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Sounds like a neutrality attempt. I think we should simply say Batman is generally not intended to be a gay character. Wiki-newbie 17:08, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't think the article needs to do anything more than document the incident involving Wetham and paranoia that DC was somehow trying to turn impressionable American youth gay, and DC's response to that, and something on the continuing issue (the reference to the two recent cases of DC refusing the use of pictures shows it's still alive and DC is still touchy about it, which is relevant to the article). Robin's costume is largely irrelevant, and the quotes from Alan Grant and George Clooney are ultimately just personal opinions. However, as this debates going, I'd say that it's been taken far too literally. A homosexual reading of Batman would not necessarily be that the character is gay within the fictional world of the story, but that the story is about homosexualiy on a thematic or allegorical level. We've only seen explicitly gay X-Men in the past few years and most of the X-Men characters were clearly intended to be heterosexual. However, the reading of the X-Men story as being an allegory about homosexuality is fairly widespread and dates from the very start of the series. It's not a particularly wild leap to wonder if Batman, a story written in the 1930s-1950s about a man leading a double life, has a gay subtext. I personally wouldn't read it that way, but it's a perfectly valid reading and one common to a lot of stories from the period with that element of duality and hidden identities. 172.143.75.115 06:06, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I rewrote to this:
It's a bit off-point, but if we accept Bats was first, a bit of context isn't out of line, I don't think. K? Trekphiler 06:29, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
I added this:
Daniels credits Finger. Trekphiler 09:52, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
The article says:
Now, maybe I don't get it amid all the retconning, but, given Bats' early history, I don't see the problem...& I'd add that fact, except for all the retconning... Trekphiler 10:10, 14 October 2006 (UTC)\
Does this warrant having its own article? -- Robocoder ( t| c) 10:59, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Since Chris Griswold seems to have such a beef with my "style" in this
I invite him, or anyone else, to fix it, rather than changing what I said. ( Chris Griswold will, I hope, notice, I do not abbreviate.) Trekphiler 09:34, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
The anonymous individual who keeps re-inserting this material about Batman as villain repeatedly does so, making the same errors again and again, including but not limited to these issues:
Notice how many different editors have been reverting/fixing this. Doczilla 21:05, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
The article is about BATMAN. He originated in the comic books but he has since moved to other media and, like other characters on other pages, those sources of information are valid -- so your first bullet point is invalidated (along with your second about the animated series).
As for the anonymity... I'm new and sometimes I forget to sign in. The points remain valid in any case as anonymous authors ARE allowed to contribute to edits. Nihilozero 05:52, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm thinking of taking a crack at revamping this. It's arranged oddly; the creation of the character is the first thing mentioned, but then there's a "Character origins" section below "Evolution of the character". Also, the "Evolution of the character" section seems somewhat redundant with the fictional biography. I can take time out to work on this tomorrow (I've got my copy of Batman: The Complete History handy after letting it collect dust on my bookshelf for over a year), so if anyone has any issues or wants to help out, let's hear it. WesleyDodds 10:28, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
True, I always feel Publishing History should really service the Character Biography, although certainly DKR should be mentioned given it's impact, canon or not. Wiki-newbie 11:05, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Good job on whoever's reorganised it! Wiki-newbie 17:11, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
The article is an older Featured Article and may not cut today's standards. Needs work in inline referencing department, maybe suffers from recentism too. Solid article though, hits the bases. Hiding Talk 22:09, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Do we really need the bit about crossover appearances on this page? WesleyDodds 06:25, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I gave it a neat clean-up. Considering it's not canon, we don't have to be too specific with the stories. Wiki-newbie 15:55, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Aaaah. I see what you mean, WesleyDodds. And nicely done, Wiki-newbie! -- Ipstenu ( talk| contribs) 16:35, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I strongly think it should be noted in the article that he's known as the "Caped Crusader", and the "Dark Knight Detective". I don't care where, though I prefer the infobox. The trouble is that we should differentiate between these nom de plumes, and the true aliases of Matches Mallone, and Sir Hemmingford Gray. Btw, regarding the latter: I believe it's "Lord" (while it also may be "Sir"). This was the alias he used while recouperating in England (of an actual Lord who had been gone for some time in Africa) during Knightquest: the Search (which eventually resolved the Shondra Kinsolving sub-plots). - jc37 04:27, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
[ [2]]
While I wouldn't doubt it, does anyone have verification that Batman has a photographic memory? I don't believe I've ever read that he does (in a canon comic, anyway), but he does certainly have a good memory for detail. - Switch t 09:06, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me, but there's a link to Kal-L at top of the Golden Age section of the Superman article. Why shouldn't there be a link to the analogous character in the same place in this article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by A gx7 ( talk • contribs) 12:05, 7 December 2006 (UTC).
I'm not even sure E2 Bats needs his own page, looking at how small it is... -- Ipstenu ( talk| contribs) 18:09, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I disagree that it's small, and it contains information that isn't in this article. There's almost 20 years of publication history that could be added to it. Surely this warrants an article with a link from this one?-- A gx7 03:25, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Speaking of un-needed pages, I changed Bruce Wayne to redirect here for a couple reasons. First, all the information is in this article. There's no big psyche split between Bruce and Batman. Bruce is Batman. Always has been, always will be (52 be damned!). While almost everyone can agree that Clark and Superman are almost separate identities from each other, this can't be said of Bruce/Batman, and we should keep the information together. I don't feel it's a logical split, so I'm being bold and reverting :) -- Ipstenu ( talk| contribs) 18:22, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
The remark about "While it remains possible, through deconstruction and re-interpretation, to view these actions as a means by which Batman is deluding himself about his own homosexuality," seems a touch ridiculous, as, with that sort of prefacing, we could add such a rationale, not to mention awkward and possibly original research, to nearly any article that may include some ambiguous relationship between two males. That this occurs on a featured article without any [insofar as I can see] justification is somewhat strange. russ. 08:13, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
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