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This archive page covers approximately the dates between December 2005 and March 2006.
Post replies to the main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary.
Please add new archivals to Talk:Batman/Archive04. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. -- Ipstenu 14:59, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
personally, i don't like it when powers are listed like Powers: None and then we immediately list like martial arts or whatever. can it be switched to "no superpowers." or something. i'm going to make it a minor sidenote, change it back if you like.
T, you are the only person on this page who is having the following argument: "Batman is Gay". None of us are trying to prove, imply, or otherwise suggest that is the case. What we are trying to show is the impact those allegations had on the evolution of the character and comic books as a whole. At this point, your comments (to me at least) are becoming incredibly distracting; this article was apparantly once considered a good example of what Wikipedia aspires to be, it looks to me like a total mess today. You are constantly using terms you don't seem to understand ("ethical obligation", "moot point", "negligent") and trying to start fights that nobody else is interested in having. You have vandalized this page and forced multiple other editors to make the SAME reversions to your changes to the main page.
Please stop. Half the time it seems like you're actively fighting against the rest of us; the problem is that the OTHER half of the time, it seems like if you'd get on the same page, you'd have a lot of useful info to contribute. Please, take a few days off, then come back and reread the article and what it's trying to say. Nobody -- NOBODY -- here is claiming that Batman is gay.
We all have the same goal here. Again, PLEASE -- take a couple days off, respond to this if you feel the need, but leave the rest alone. Come back, reread everything, and get back in the thick of it. Simnel 23:46, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
I give you: The batmojometer.
Some points i forgot there:
...And then, some mistakes :S
The sources are right there, just ot prove my point: every 2 years and 5 monts a hot bat-chick is created. I don't think anyone that writes here is thinking so. Although with this table, Batman makes James Bond and Sam Malone look like rookies, hhis is not to prove that batman is not gay; but to prove that the Batwoman & Batgirl point is meaningless. We also have the fact that neither allmighthy editor Jack Schiff nor Bob Kane backed that point. So we have meaningless and Unoficial.
So, from my point of view, that makes two options: either aloud me to write something like "editor Jack Schiff nor Bob Kane backed that point" and "in average, every 2 years and 5 monts a Batman romantic interest have been created since the begining" that with help of a friend i can work out; or you could take down the Batwoman and Batgirl line and move on...But that's just my point of view, if you don't like you can print the whole thing roll the papper and shov...No, just kiding. hahah. If you don't like it you can just laugh abuot my idiotic table. The numbers and names are real, the other is just my interpretations (pointless to argue about wich one is more famous or closer to batman).-- T for Trouble-maker 05:47, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Created by the one, the only, -- T-man, the Wise Scarecrow 23:25, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Did anyone else notice the phallic symbol in the image of Batman used in this article? Just between his legs? 193.201.41.38 10:53, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
yeeeeeeeeahhhh!! that's to show the ladies a little preview what the b-man is all about when it comes to pleasing them!!!-- T-man, the worst "vandal" ever 05:57, 21 January 2006 (UTC) . HERE http://www.supermanartists.comics.org/batman/batman.htm I thought it was "Linda" not "Linga"? What's "Abr", "Ene", "Ene", and "Ago"? Use Batman's native tounge, "Senor". I heard shitmaker say Chase Meridian was written in just for the movie when I rented it and that other crap in a dollar two for one deal. New York just calls them "Batbithes". Could you identify if they premired in either Detective Comics or Batman and have it in an alternate format besides a JPG? It would make it more COMPLETE and organized. Thank you.
Moving on to new and more important things... Superman is now 35kb, while Batman is 49 kb. Further ideas on reduction? Dyslexic agnostic 08:10, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
how about?... we develope each section into full articles. And we leave here in only the intros'. (I call intros the few paragraphs that are allways above the summaries, the first section, the ones that you have to edit the whole article if you want to change) Lets say, like 3-4-5 paragraphs depending on the size. Internet newspapper style. Wikipedia main page is also like that. We keep some juicy info with generous links and maybe a picture or two here to catch the reader's attention and we develope the full thing as a sort of "sub-article". Like the Superman page. I dunno, maybe someone would like to throw some more ideas...Maybe a lot of them. I myself, for once, am done in this section, I'll return to work to provide new info on the above sections. I'm all for it. Count me in-- T for Trouble-maker 08:56, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
This doesn't quite sound right...
"Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale more recently put their miniseries Batman: The Long Halloween and Batman: Dark Victory in the time period following Year One"
Does anyone know how to pluralize miniseries? Simnel 15:04, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Made the follow changes to the last few paragraphs of this section, starting with the discussion of Dark Knight Returns. My main focus was trying to bring everything back around from 'Telling what happened in the stories' to discussing how they impacted the character.:
I think that's it. Whew! Simnel 16:00, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
The second paragraph of Powers and Abilities needs serious pruning; it goes into way too much detail about infinite crisis/identity crisis. Also, can anyone source Batman actually having an eidetic memory? The eidetic memory PAGE suggests it comes from the novel Batman: The Stone King; I've never read an actual comic that suggests batman has anything except an amazingly, amazingly good memory. Simnel 16:22, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
One step at a time... okay, chopped this guy too. If we can cut it down by half a K or so ever day, we'll have a good article in only a week or two. Simnel 17:17, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
Okay, one more and I'm calling it a night. This section (like MUCH of this article) can use a serious revamp. Here are some questions that need to be answered:
Well, I guess I lied when I said the last one was it for the night :-) Origin also needs serious revision. Specifically, about six different origin stories are all being mixed and matched; I think we should EITHER: A. Stick entirely to the current cannonical origin, and eliminate everything NOT in the comics; B. Include separate sections on varying origin stories, including Begins, Year One, Batman: TAS, etc. C. Unravel the current one a bit, making sure it is very clear what story comes from where. I'm in favor of A or B; either way, a note at the top saying what we've done is DEFINITELY in order there. Simnel 16:49, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Step by step, working through this. What I'm trying to do, as much as possible, is keep this page about the character, not about the stories. It's fine illustrating a point with an example, but there are too many "what happened in this story" moments, taking up room and distracting from the main point. Simnel 16:48, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
Okay, I did a MAJOR cleanup of the Origin section, but it still needs a ton of work. I split it up along similar lines to the Superman page, into a Golden Age and current (post-crisis) section. PLEASE add content -- it's sorely lacking -- but please try to follow these guidelines.
Here are some questions which need to be answered:
Oh, and my text for those golden age paragraphs blows. PLEASE improve it. Simnel 18:20, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
It would be great to have the following pictures for the new origin sections:
Either the "Criminals are a superstitious, cowardly lot" panel or the one at the end of the page, the first picture of Batman in his costume, for the Golden Age section.
One of Frank Miller's Year One covers for the Current Continuity section.
I've looked at the history of this page, and the contributions from anonymous editors seem substantial. I have not found any effort to discuss the recent versions that have been reverted. Semi-protection is a drastic step. I'm hoping some dialogue can happen first, and it won't be necessary. -- Samuel Wantman 11:24, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
My current opinion is a compromise between my old one and your point...You're right, since we're providing links to the articles about the heroes good ol' Bruce is associated with, there's no need to list all of their numerous alter-egos, especially when practically all heroes (and not just the famous examples like Dick Grayson) have assumed a seconf crime-fighting identity at one time or another (e.g.: Cassandra Cain's tenure as "Kasumi" with the Justice League Elite team, Helena Bertinelli's brief career as the second Batgirl, etc.). Therefore I agree it would be best if we changed stuff like "Robin I/Nightwing" and "Spoiler/Robin IV" to simply "Nightwing" and "Spoiler". I was also thinking that the Roman numerals identifying the particular incarnations of the characters could remain (as in "Robin III"), but as you've just mentioned, maybe the "Civilian name (Superhero name)" option would be best, as in "Robin (Tim Drake)", but it has one disadvantage that detracts from it considerably: it is even longer than the "slash" option. A simple "II" seems better than a huge "(Jean-Paul Valley)". However, whatever option we choose, there's still the touchy subject regarding Barbara Gordon (should she go as "Batgirl (Barbara Gordon)", "Oracle" or "Barbara Gordon"?, encompassing everything) and Dick Grayson (since Superman and a guy from Kandor fought crime as Nightwing before Dick in Pre-Crisis continuity, and due to DC not confirmingif Dick will still be Nightwing after Infinite Crisis.) -- Ace ETP 05:50, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Simnel, I changed "Robin I/Nightwing" and "Spoiler/Robin IV" to simply "Nightwing" and "Spoiler". Hope you don't mind. I figured that no matter if we choose either the Roman numerals option or the "Civilian name (Superhero name)" option, it will still be better for the internal consistency of the article if we keep the number of superhero identities listed per character limited to one (as suggested when you listed Babs Gordon simply as "Oracle"). We just have to remember that there will be a new Catwoman after the "One Year Later..." event in Infinite Crisis (since Selina Kyle will be pregnant. If Bruce is the father, this might bring Helena Wayne to mainstream continuity), and that there might be a new Nightwing. -- Ace ETP 02:22, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
It occurs to me when looking at a recent anonymous edit that the article should be written in past tense as much as possible, and should avoid the use of words like 'recently'. I'm going to try to clean it up a bit, and we should all keep it in mind going forward. Simnel 16:42, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, Hiding! I did intend to mean 'when talking about real-world vs. comic book events'... IE, we shouldn't talk about the War Games storyline as being recent, as in three years that won't be the case. We shouldn't even talk about Infinite Crisis as recent, for the same reason. But thanks for the policy links -- I didn't know that, and it's really interesting! Simnel 01:29, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
I've been cleaning out the external links section and some keep getting added back in so I figure a rationale is neccesary. There are so many fam pages on the web devoted to Batman that I think it is unfair to choose any one, and we can't list them all, since Wikipedia is not a web directory. Therefore, as per guidance at Wikipedia:External links, I have added a link to an open directory's listing of Batman related pages. Since the site is an open one, it is perhaps better practise that people add their links to that project rather than this one. I also removed a link to a site which appears to violate copyright, as per Wikipedia:Copyrights#Linking to copyrighted works.
I cut this text...
In Teen Titans? In the episode of Teen Titans, "Haunted", a shot of Robin taking an oath to be Robin is seen. This would make Batman the only non-Titan hero that has appeared on the show.
It really didn't fit in. Simnel 23:34, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I took out this sentence...
Spoofs of the character include Dynomutt, Radioactive Man, Darkwing Duck, Batfink, Rat Pfink, and Saturday Night Live's short films of the Ambiguously Gay Duo.
Dynomutt is not a Batman spoof. Radioactive Man is not either. Nobody has ever heard of Rat Pfink a Boo Boo. Batfink is something Joker calls Batman; I guess it was also a cartoon. The Ambigously Gay Duo does belong here... but it might go better in the homosexual section. What would go GREAT instead of this would be a discussion of some of the high-quality fan projects out there, like Sandy Collura's Batman: Dead End, World's Finest... I think someone does a Batman radio (web radio) drama... some of that stuff, that really shows how the character has seeped into the culture.
I also changed a 2nd Marvel reference to an Image reference; seemed like a better way to do things. What might go better is a paragraph talking about how Batman is now a common 'type' for comic books and many companies have made characters which draw in at least some way on him. Simnel 23:46, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I saw that 86.41.196.255 added Terry McGuinness from Batman Beyond as a relative. Not knowing if out-of-continuity offspring should be shown here, I searched for his other son, Ibn al Xu'ffasch from the Kingdom Come universe. He is listed as Ra's al Ghul's grandson (with the out-of-continuity notation), so I included him here as well. Couldn't find debate on the topic, but it seems to be common to note such relatives elsewhere. ZZ 13:26, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Okay, on that note -- I included the fact that Ibn is in the Kingdom Come continuity, fixed the link to the Batman Beyond page for Terry, and included Huntress I from Earth-Two. Simnel 14:39, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
This question appears to have come up again. I know other Comics articles mention children from out-of-continuity, and adding them here would appear to maintain a consistent format across the various comics articles in the encyclopedia. As there is no listing available in the superherobox template for making that distinction, the logical place to put such offspring is under the actual relatives heading.
Even if characters are related outside of regular continuity, the characters still exist and still have their own articles with their own links and cross-references. So long as the notation is clearly made that such characters are out-of-continuity (as I think the references in question to Ibn al Xu'ffasch and others are), then they should probably be listed here. I'm not going to start reverting back and forth without calling the question, so discuss here.
Also, isn't Helena Wayne also out-of-continuity? ZZ 04:05, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
I reverted, but invited the editor who made these changes to come and discuss. We'll see what happens. In all likelihood, it'll be yet another interminable revert war... fun. We'll see. Simnel 04:22, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
However, quotes from the crators would be missing and Batman had previous romantic interests prior to this point [3].
is more sourcing needed? I won't change the section any further than that.
If the creators part isn't aloud I'd need to see Christopher York's sources. We could rephrase "Althoug he didn't quote the creators".
Does anybody saw the "Legends of the Dark knight" ep. of TNBA? there is also a gay reference there.
-- T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 01:06, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
t-man as you are here could you please add your statment here
Benon 01:07, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm now it's undertood batman isn't gay. To me Batman gayness is in a sense real. My opinion is exactly Devin Grayson + Alan Grant´s, I believe the creators didn't write a gay Batman, but I can see how some people saw him that way. If you're gay you'd probably relate to some of the 60's show and even to the comics' features. The duo was intended to be straight but they did look ambiguos. That's how probbably Joel's Batman, and that's part of why most people hate his Batman. I just needed to see evidence of dc trying to introduce those female characters as a direct consecuense of wertham. Even if they wanted a female character, there were already like 8 female characters created previously. two of them not being obscure as Batwoman: Selina Kyle and Vicky Vale. To me it's just about following logic. The ambiance alteration still doesn't make any reference to wertham. my pov on that (excelent) source work is they wanted the female to be a hero instead of a villain (selina) or another lois lane (vicky), not from gay to striaght. We still need some cause-efect source on Wertham(cause)-Batwoman(effect). I see more of that on Denny O'Neil's changes, he moved R to college and the Titans, and put batman in bed with talia. However, that second ambiance change is still not necessary because of gay thing, yet. In the 50s ans 60s ralating to a hero through the sidekick kid was considered the cool thing. In the 70s the sidekick getting some with a 1.90 barely dressed hot alien at College and Batman in an appartment with the daughter of his new nemesis WAS the cool thing. So it's a matter of perspectives, but as long as we source, and especially from the straight (didn't mean heteresexual) source. -- T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 04:35, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I also wonder if it'd be better if we just leave the link of the Enemies of batman erasing the intro here... That might enphacize the page as a sub-article. Or maybe a copy of the first lines there with a "read more" kind of link. like they do on www.allmusic.com-- T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 05:34, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
This is a great looking article why can't this be done for a Canadian article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 142.150.48.217 ( talk • contribs) .
Because Canada is...nah, too easy. :P Actually, there's nothing stopping the Canadian version, or any other version of the arcticle to be as well groomed or polished. You just have to do it, basically. Eluchil 00:35, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Apostrophe -- I reverted your change, not because I thought it was bad but because I wasn't quite sure why you did it, and wanted a chance to talk about it. I personally don't like just linking to 'Batman family' as much; I think it takes some of the most key information out of the superhero box and redirects the user to a page that isn't as good. More than that, the summary itself doesn't have a whole lot of value; what I mean is, if we listed "Robin I, Robin II, Robin III, Robin IV" reducing that to something like 'various Robins' keeps the spirit there. 'Batman Family' gives the reader no information unless they decide to follow the link and read the article. Just as importantly, the superherobox is already an oversized monstrosity. Reducing it by two lines makes no noticeable difference. Anyway, like I said, wanted to talk about it; what made you decide to make the change? Simnel 09:42, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
The first screen of the page, to me, looks terrible. On my monitor, I see 1/4 of the SHB -- including a picture which is too large to fully show -- 1/3 of the table of contents, two redirect notices, white space between the TOC and the SHB, and two paragraphs of text. Here are some suggestions:
EDIT: I clipped this:
because the disambiguation page, referenced immediately above, already contains this link.
I'm out of ideas here. If anyone's got anything to add, please do. If you decide to make any changes, just talk about them here. Simnel 10:04, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I requested semi-protection again, guys. Hopefully, we'll see less vandalism in the future. If I never see "Batman is actually not a schizophrenic" again, it'll be worth it :-) Simnel 01:38, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Not that I'm doubting either -- I had never heard of the Spider before this, but he certainly seems to be a Batman precursor -- but does anyone have references to Doc Savage or the Spider as inspirations to Kane/Finger? I've only heard Doc come up as a Superman forerunner before. Simnel 14:35, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
When was the first paragraph changed from 'Batman is a superhero' to the significantly less specific 'batman is a fictional character'? And why? Simnel 09:32, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
To Simnel, Batman is a anti-hero because he is the opposite of traditional superheroes such as Superman. He is willing to use underhanded techinques, his character is very flawed, and he has an obsseive hatred of criminals. being a vigilante also makes him an anti-hero. T-1000 21:11, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
Batman has been portrayed in so many different ways that it's impossible to say definitively that he is or is not an anti-hero. I agree that Frank Miller's Batman is clearly an anti-hero — psychotic and unstable, and gaining strength from his psychosis. On the other hand, the Batman of Batman Begins is not, since although he "clearly has issues" he's essentially operating out of a developing sense of justice rather than vengeance. I agree with T-Man that Morrison's Batman is a bit of a dick but a hero nonetheless. I also get the impression that one of the consequences of the new focus on the character after Infinite Crisis will be to downplay Batman's recent assholishness and play up his heroism.
As for the original Bob Kane/Bill Finger Batman, it's true that he was more violent back then, but it's also true that the "rules" for comic-book heroism hadn't been clearly defined yet. Batman owes a lot to pulp figures like The Shadow, who was very much an antihero. But later, as comics came under tighter scrutiny from critics and censors, the character cleaned up his act and became more blatantly heroic.
Because of Batman's pulp roots, there will always be a pull towards the antiheroic side. Aside from the campy "old chum" Batman of the 1950s comics and 1960s TV show, every other version of Batman has at least been a "dark" hero, which is closer to the antihero than the sunny, optimistic Superman. Is Batman an antihero? Well, sometimes he is, and sometimes he isn't. I think that it's probably OK to have him in the antihero category, especially if he's also in a category showing his heroic side as well. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 06:19, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
' ( Feeling chatty? ) ( Edits!) 06:20, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
OK, let's calm down a bit and look at another source. Like, say, a dictionary definition of antihero. The American Heritage Dictionary defines "antihero" as "A main character in a dramatic or narrative work who is characterized by a lack of traditional heroic qualities, such as idealism or courage." Well, Batman certainly doesn't lack those heroic qualities, but in some portrayals (including, arguably, Bob Kane's earliest stories) he does lack some other traditional heroic qualities. Sometimes his sanity is questionable (consider Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth for one example). Other times his planning for all exigencies verges on paranoia (consider the JLA story Tower of Babel). If you feel that a hero must never kill (an arguable stance, and one with which heroes like Achilles would disagree), it's worth remembering that in his earliest appearances Batman did kill, and even used guns on occasion. Occasionally Batman is portrayed as enjoying the violence of his chosen lifestyle a bit too much. He's often portrayed as obsessive, a trait not usually associated with the conventional hero type.
I'm not saying this to denigrate the character of Batman. I also agree that the examples I've listed are not really the majority of Batman's appearances over the years. However, they do represent a significant tradition in how Batman has been portrayed over the decades. Batman is more often a hero than an antihero — but sometimes he's been more of an antihero than a hero. The article should reflect these contradictions, not just DC Comics' current editorial stance towards the character. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 07:01, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
I see a lot of people above arguing on the strength of their opinion. Let's remember that our interpretation isn't of value here, that's original research. What we've got to do is build from sources. We've got one source which describes Batman, at least as portrayed in the recent movie, as an anti-hero. Anymore reliable sources arguing either way? This might be an issue best debated in the article, or within a sub article, referencing good sources. In fact, if we could get some good referencing on different interpretations of the character, we could break out a sub article: Batman: Interpretations of the character or some such name. The anti-hero is too disputable for the article to be categorised definitively as an anti-hero, per Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and series boxes Categories appear without annotations, so be careful of NPOV when creating or filling categories. Unless it is self-evident and uncontroversial that something belongs in a category, it should not be put into a category. Hiding talk 10:59, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Maybe it is time to summarize this article, I think it could be more informative. I mean I agree Azrael killing avatoir, or Bane broking batman's back, Quakemaster, or Lex Luthor rebuilding GC are not just details. Sub-Articles are becoming necesary, that was done on Superman's page. Check Wikipedia:Summary Style-- T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 03:59, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This archive page covers approximately the dates between December 2005 and March 2006.
Post replies to the main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary.
Please add new archivals to Talk:Batman/Archive04. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. -- Ipstenu 14:59, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
personally, i don't like it when powers are listed like Powers: None and then we immediately list like martial arts or whatever. can it be switched to "no superpowers." or something. i'm going to make it a minor sidenote, change it back if you like.
T, you are the only person on this page who is having the following argument: "Batman is Gay". None of us are trying to prove, imply, or otherwise suggest that is the case. What we are trying to show is the impact those allegations had on the evolution of the character and comic books as a whole. At this point, your comments (to me at least) are becoming incredibly distracting; this article was apparantly once considered a good example of what Wikipedia aspires to be, it looks to me like a total mess today. You are constantly using terms you don't seem to understand ("ethical obligation", "moot point", "negligent") and trying to start fights that nobody else is interested in having. You have vandalized this page and forced multiple other editors to make the SAME reversions to your changes to the main page.
Please stop. Half the time it seems like you're actively fighting against the rest of us; the problem is that the OTHER half of the time, it seems like if you'd get on the same page, you'd have a lot of useful info to contribute. Please, take a few days off, then come back and reread the article and what it's trying to say. Nobody -- NOBODY -- here is claiming that Batman is gay.
We all have the same goal here. Again, PLEASE -- take a couple days off, respond to this if you feel the need, but leave the rest alone. Come back, reread everything, and get back in the thick of it. Simnel 23:46, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
I give you: The batmojometer.
Some points i forgot there:
...And then, some mistakes :S
The sources are right there, just ot prove my point: every 2 years and 5 monts a hot bat-chick is created. I don't think anyone that writes here is thinking so. Although with this table, Batman makes James Bond and Sam Malone look like rookies, hhis is not to prove that batman is not gay; but to prove that the Batwoman & Batgirl point is meaningless. We also have the fact that neither allmighthy editor Jack Schiff nor Bob Kane backed that point. So we have meaningless and Unoficial.
So, from my point of view, that makes two options: either aloud me to write something like "editor Jack Schiff nor Bob Kane backed that point" and "in average, every 2 years and 5 monts a Batman romantic interest have been created since the begining" that with help of a friend i can work out; or you could take down the Batwoman and Batgirl line and move on...But that's just my point of view, if you don't like you can print the whole thing roll the papper and shov...No, just kiding. hahah. If you don't like it you can just laugh abuot my idiotic table. The numbers and names are real, the other is just my interpretations (pointless to argue about wich one is more famous or closer to batman).-- T for Trouble-maker 05:47, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Created by the one, the only, -- T-man, the Wise Scarecrow 23:25, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Did anyone else notice the phallic symbol in the image of Batman used in this article? Just between his legs? 193.201.41.38 10:53, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
yeeeeeeeeahhhh!! that's to show the ladies a little preview what the b-man is all about when it comes to pleasing them!!!-- T-man, the worst "vandal" ever 05:57, 21 January 2006 (UTC) . HERE http://www.supermanartists.comics.org/batman/batman.htm I thought it was "Linda" not "Linga"? What's "Abr", "Ene", "Ene", and "Ago"? Use Batman's native tounge, "Senor". I heard shitmaker say Chase Meridian was written in just for the movie when I rented it and that other crap in a dollar two for one deal. New York just calls them "Batbithes". Could you identify if they premired in either Detective Comics or Batman and have it in an alternate format besides a JPG? It would make it more COMPLETE and organized. Thank you.
Moving on to new and more important things... Superman is now 35kb, while Batman is 49 kb. Further ideas on reduction? Dyslexic agnostic 08:10, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
how about?... we develope each section into full articles. And we leave here in only the intros'. (I call intros the few paragraphs that are allways above the summaries, the first section, the ones that you have to edit the whole article if you want to change) Lets say, like 3-4-5 paragraphs depending on the size. Internet newspapper style. Wikipedia main page is also like that. We keep some juicy info with generous links and maybe a picture or two here to catch the reader's attention and we develope the full thing as a sort of "sub-article". Like the Superman page. I dunno, maybe someone would like to throw some more ideas...Maybe a lot of them. I myself, for once, am done in this section, I'll return to work to provide new info on the above sections. I'm all for it. Count me in-- T for Trouble-maker 08:56, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
This doesn't quite sound right...
"Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale more recently put their miniseries Batman: The Long Halloween and Batman: Dark Victory in the time period following Year One"
Does anyone know how to pluralize miniseries? Simnel 15:04, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Made the follow changes to the last few paragraphs of this section, starting with the discussion of Dark Knight Returns. My main focus was trying to bring everything back around from 'Telling what happened in the stories' to discussing how they impacted the character.:
I think that's it. Whew! Simnel 16:00, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
The second paragraph of Powers and Abilities needs serious pruning; it goes into way too much detail about infinite crisis/identity crisis. Also, can anyone source Batman actually having an eidetic memory? The eidetic memory PAGE suggests it comes from the novel Batman: The Stone King; I've never read an actual comic that suggests batman has anything except an amazingly, amazingly good memory. Simnel 16:22, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
One step at a time... okay, chopped this guy too. If we can cut it down by half a K or so ever day, we'll have a good article in only a week or two. Simnel 17:17, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
Okay, one more and I'm calling it a night. This section (like MUCH of this article) can use a serious revamp. Here are some questions that need to be answered:
Well, I guess I lied when I said the last one was it for the night :-) Origin also needs serious revision. Specifically, about six different origin stories are all being mixed and matched; I think we should EITHER: A. Stick entirely to the current cannonical origin, and eliminate everything NOT in the comics; B. Include separate sections on varying origin stories, including Begins, Year One, Batman: TAS, etc. C. Unravel the current one a bit, making sure it is very clear what story comes from where. I'm in favor of A or B; either way, a note at the top saying what we've done is DEFINITELY in order there. Simnel 16:49, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Step by step, working through this. What I'm trying to do, as much as possible, is keep this page about the character, not about the stories. It's fine illustrating a point with an example, but there are too many "what happened in this story" moments, taking up room and distracting from the main point. Simnel 16:48, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
Okay, I did a MAJOR cleanup of the Origin section, but it still needs a ton of work. I split it up along similar lines to the Superman page, into a Golden Age and current (post-crisis) section. PLEASE add content -- it's sorely lacking -- but please try to follow these guidelines.
Here are some questions which need to be answered:
Oh, and my text for those golden age paragraphs blows. PLEASE improve it. Simnel 18:20, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
It would be great to have the following pictures for the new origin sections:
Either the "Criminals are a superstitious, cowardly lot" panel or the one at the end of the page, the first picture of Batman in his costume, for the Golden Age section.
One of Frank Miller's Year One covers for the Current Continuity section.
I've looked at the history of this page, and the contributions from anonymous editors seem substantial. I have not found any effort to discuss the recent versions that have been reverted. Semi-protection is a drastic step. I'm hoping some dialogue can happen first, and it won't be necessary. -- Samuel Wantman 11:24, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
My current opinion is a compromise between my old one and your point...You're right, since we're providing links to the articles about the heroes good ol' Bruce is associated with, there's no need to list all of their numerous alter-egos, especially when practically all heroes (and not just the famous examples like Dick Grayson) have assumed a seconf crime-fighting identity at one time or another (e.g.: Cassandra Cain's tenure as "Kasumi" with the Justice League Elite team, Helena Bertinelli's brief career as the second Batgirl, etc.). Therefore I agree it would be best if we changed stuff like "Robin I/Nightwing" and "Spoiler/Robin IV" to simply "Nightwing" and "Spoiler". I was also thinking that the Roman numerals identifying the particular incarnations of the characters could remain (as in "Robin III"), but as you've just mentioned, maybe the "Civilian name (Superhero name)" option would be best, as in "Robin (Tim Drake)", but it has one disadvantage that detracts from it considerably: it is even longer than the "slash" option. A simple "II" seems better than a huge "(Jean-Paul Valley)". However, whatever option we choose, there's still the touchy subject regarding Barbara Gordon (should she go as "Batgirl (Barbara Gordon)", "Oracle" or "Barbara Gordon"?, encompassing everything) and Dick Grayson (since Superman and a guy from Kandor fought crime as Nightwing before Dick in Pre-Crisis continuity, and due to DC not confirmingif Dick will still be Nightwing after Infinite Crisis.) -- Ace ETP 05:50, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Simnel, I changed "Robin I/Nightwing" and "Spoiler/Robin IV" to simply "Nightwing" and "Spoiler". Hope you don't mind. I figured that no matter if we choose either the Roman numerals option or the "Civilian name (Superhero name)" option, it will still be better for the internal consistency of the article if we keep the number of superhero identities listed per character limited to one (as suggested when you listed Babs Gordon simply as "Oracle"). We just have to remember that there will be a new Catwoman after the "One Year Later..." event in Infinite Crisis (since Selina Kyle will be pregnant. If Bruce is the father, this might bring Helena Wayne to mainstream continuity), and that there might be a new Nightwing. -- Ace ETP 02:22, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
It occurs to me when looking at a recent anonymous edit that the article should be written in past tense as much as possible, and should avoid the use of words like 'recently'. I'm going to try to clean it up a bit, and we should all keep it in mind going forward. Simnel 16:42, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, Hiding! I did intend to mean 'when talking about real-world vs. comic book events'... IE, we shouldn't talk about the War Games storyline as being recent, as in three years that won't be the case. We shouldn't even talk about Infinite Crisis as recent, for the same reason. But thanks for the policy links -- I didn't know that, and it's really interesting! Simnel 01:29, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
I've been cleaning out the external links section and some keep getting added back in so I figure a rationale is neccesary. There are so many fam pages on the web devoted to Batman that I think it is unfair to choose any one, and we can't list them all, since Wikipedia is not a web directory. Therefore, as per guidance at Wikipedia:External links, I have added a link to an open directory's listing of Batman related pages. Since the site is an open one, it is perhaps better practise that people add their links to that project rather than this one. I also removed a link to a site which appears to violate copyright, as per Wikipedia:Copyrights#Linking to copyrighted works.
I cut this text...
In Teen Titans? In the episode of Teen Titans, "Haunted", a shot of Robin taking an oath to be Robin is seen. This would make Batman the only non-Titan hero that has appeared on the show.
It really didn't fit in. Simnel 23:34, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I took out this sentence...
Spoofs of the character include Dynomutt, Radioactive Man, Darkwing Duck, Batfink, Rat Pfink, and Saturday Night Live's short films of the Ambiguously Gay Duo.
Dynomutt is not a Batman spoof. Radioactive Man is not either. Nobody has ever heard of Rat Pfink a Boo Boo. Batfink is something Joker calls Batman; I guess it was also a cartoon. The Ambigously Gay Duo does belong here... but it might go better in the homosexual section. What would go GREAT instead of this would be a discussion of some of the high-quality fan projects out there, like Sandy Collura's Batman: Dead End, World's Finest... I think someone does a Batman radio (web radio) drama... some of that stuff, that really shows how the character has seeped into the culture.
I also changed a 2nd Marvel reference to an Image reference; seemed like a better way to do things. What might go better is a paragraph talking about how Batman is now a common 'type' for comic books and many companies have made characters which draw in at least some way on him. Simnel 23:46, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I saw that 86.41.196.255 added Terry McGuinness from Batman Beyond as a relative. Not knowing if out-of-continuity offspring should be shown here, I searched for his other son, Ibn al Xu'ffasch from the Kingdom Come universe. He is listed as Ra's al Ghul's grandson (with the out-of-continuity notation), so I included him here as well. Couldn't find debate on the topic, but it seems to be common to note such relatives elsewhere. ZZ 13:26, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Okay, on that note -- I included the fact that Ibn is in the Kingdom Come continuity, fixed the link to the Batman Beyond page for Terry, and included Huntress I from Earth-Two. Simnel 14:39, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
This question appears to have come up again. I know other Comics articles mention children from out-of-continuity, and adding them here would appear to maintain a consistent format across the various comics articles in the encyclopedia. As there is no listing available in the superherobox template for making that distinction, the logical place to put such offspring is under the actual relatives heading.
Even if characters are related outside of regular continuity, the characters still exist and still have their own articles with their own links and cross-references. So long as the notation is clearly made that such characters are out-of-continuity (as I think the references in question to Ibn al Xu'ffasch and others are), then they should probably be listed here. I'm not going to start reverting back and forth without calling the question, so discuss here.
Also, isn't Helena Wayne also out-of-continuity? ZZ 04:05, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
I reverted, but invited the editor who made these changes to come and discuss. We'll see what happens. In all likelihood, it'll be yet another interminable revert war... fun. We'll see. Simnel 04:22, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
However, quotes from the crators would be missing and Batman had previous romantic interests prior to this point [3].
is more sourcing needed? I won't change the section any further than that.
If the creators part isn't aloud I'd need to see Christopher York's sources. We could rephrase "Althoug he didn't quote the creators".
Does anybody saw the "Legends of the Dark knight" ep. of TNBA? there is also a gay reference there.
-- T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 01:06, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
t-man as you are here could you please add your statment here
Benon 01:07, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm now it's undertood batman isn't gay. To me Batman gayness is in a sense real. My opinion is exactly Devin Grayson + Alan Grant´s, I believe the creators didn't write a gay Batman, but I can see how some people saw him that way. If you're gay you'd probably relate to some of the 60's show and even to the comics' features. The duo was intended to be straight but they did look ambiguos. That's how probbably Joel's Batman, and that's part of why most people hate his Batman. I just needed to see evidence of dc trying to introduce those female characters as a direct consecuense of wertham. Even if they wanted a female character, there were already like 8 female characters created previously. two of them not being obscure as Batwoman: Selina Kyle and Vicky Vale. To me it's just about following logic. The ambiance alteration still doesn't make any reference to wertham. my pov on that (excelent) source work is they wanted the female to be a hero instead of a villain (selina) or another lois lane (vicky), not from gay to striaght. We still need some cause-efect source on Wertham(cause)-Batwoman(effect). I see more of that on Denny O'Neil's changes, he moved R to college and the Titans, and put batman in bed with talia. However, that second ambiance change is still not necessary because of gay thing, yet. In the 50s ans 60s ralating to a hero through the sidekick kid was considered the cool thing. In the 70s the sidekick getting some with a 1.90 barely dressed hot alien at College and Batman in an appartment with the daughter of his new nemesis WAS the cool thing. So it's a matter of perspectives, but as long as we source, and especially from the straight (didn't mean heteresexual) source. -- T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 04:35, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I also wonder if it'd be better if we just leave the link of the Enemies of batman erasing the intro here... That might enphacize the page as a sub-article. Or maybe a copy of the first lines there with a "read more" kind of link. like they do on www.allmusic.com-- T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 05:34, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
This is a great looking article why can't this be done for a Canadian article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 142.150.48.217 ( talk • contribs) .
Because Canada is...nah, too easy. :P Actually, there's nothing stopping the Canadian version, or any other version of the arcticle to be as well groomed or polished. You just have to do it, basically. Eluchil 00:35, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Apostrophe -- I reverted your change, not because I thought it was bad but because I wasn't quite sure why you did it, and wanted a chance to talk about it. I personally don't like just linking to 'Batman family' as much; I think it takes some of the most key information out of the superhero box and redirects the user to a page that isn't as good. More than that, the summary itself doesn't have a whole lot of value; what I mean is, if we listed "Robin I, Robin II, Robin III, Robin IV" reducing that to something like 'various Robins' keeps the spirit there. 'Batman Family' gives the reader no information unless they decide to follow the link and read the article. Just as importantly, the superherobox is already an oversized monstrosity. Reducing it by two lines makes no noticeable difference. Anyway, like I said, wanted to talk about it; what made you decide to make the change? Simnel 09:42, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
The first screen of the page, to me, looks terrible. On my monitor, I see 1/4 of the SHB -- including a picture which is too large to fully show -- 1/3 of the table of contents, two redirect notices, white space between the TOC and the SHB, and two paragraphs of text. Here are some suggestions:
EDIT: I clipped this:
because the disambiguation page, referenced immediately above, already contains this link.
I'm out of ideas here. If anyone's got anything to add, please do. If you decide to make any changes, just talk about them here. Simnel 10:04, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I requested semi-protection again, guys. Hopefully, we'll see less vandalism in the future. If I never see "Batman is actually not a schizophrenic" again, it'll be worth it :-) Simnel 01:38, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Not that I'm doubting either -- I had never heard of the Spider before this, but he certainly seems to be a Batman precursor -- but does anyone have references to Doc Savage or the Spider as inspirations to Kane/Finger? I've only heard Doc come up as a Superman forerunner before. Simnel 14:35, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
When was the first paragraph changed from 'Batman is a superhero' to the significantly less specific 'batman is a fictional character'? And why? Simnel 09:32, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
To Simnel, Batman is a anti-hero because he is the opposite of traditional superheroes such as Superman. He is willing to use underhanded techinques, his character is very flawed, and he has an obsseive hatred of criminals. being a vigilante also makes him an anti-hero. T-1000 21:11, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
Batman has been portrayed in so many different ways that it's impossible to say definitively that he is or is not an anti-hero. I agree that Frank Miller's Batman is clearly an anti-hero — psychotic and unstable, and gaining strength from his psychosis. On the other hand, the Batman of Batman Begins is not, since although he "clearly has issues" he's essentially operating out of a developing sense of justice rather than vengeance. I agree with T-Man that Morrison's Batman is a bit of a dick but a hero nonetheless. I also get the impression that one of the consequences of the new focus on the character after Infinite Crisis will be to downplay Batman's recent assholishness and play up his heroism.
As for the original Bob Kane/Bill Finger Batman, it's true that he was more violent back then, but it's also true that the "rules" for comic-book heroism hadn't been clearly defined yet. Batman owes a lot to pulp figures like The Shadow, who was very much an antihero. But later, as comics came under tighter scrutiny from critics and censors, the character cleaned up his act and became more blatantly heroic.
Because of Batman's pulp roots, there will always be a pull towards the antiheroic side. Aside from the campy "old chum" Batman of the 1950s comics and 1960s TV show, every other version of Batman has at least been a "dark" hero, which is closer to the antihero than the sunny, optimistic Superman. Is Batman an antihero? Well, sometimes he is, and sometimes he isn't. I think that it's probably OK to have him in the antihero category, especially if he's also in a category showing his heroic side as well. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 06:19, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
' ( Feeling chatty? ) ( Edits!) 06:20, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
OK, let's calm down a bit and look at another source. Like, say, a dictionary definition of antihero. The American Heritage Dictionary defines "antihero" as "A main character in a dramatic or narrative work who is characterized by a lack of traditional heroic qualities, such as idealism or courage." Well, Batman certainly doesn't lack those heroic qualities, but in some portrayals (including, arguably, Bob Kane's earliest stories) he does lack some other traditional heroic qualities. Sometimes his sanity is questionable (consider Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth for one example). Other times his planning for all exigencies verges on paranoia (consider the JLA story Tower of Babel). If you feel that a hero must never kill (an arguable stance, and one with which heroes like Achilles would disagree), it's worth remembering that in his earliest appearances Batman did kill, and even used guns on occasion. Occasionally Batman is portrayed as enjoying the violence of his chosen lifestyle a bit too much. He's often portrayed as obsessive, a trait not usually associated with the conventional hero type.
I'm not saying this to denigrate the character of Batman. I also agree that the examples I've listed are not really the majority of Batman's appearances over the years. However, they do represent a significant tradition in how Batman has been portrayed over the decades. Batman is more often a hero than an antihero — but sometimes he's been more of an antihero than a hero. The article should reflect these contradictions, not just DC Comics' current editorial stance towards the character. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 07:01, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
I see a lot of people above arguing on the strength of their opinion. Let's remember that our interpretation isn't of value here, that's original research. What we've got to do is build from sources. We've got one source which describes Batman, at least as portrayed in the recent movie, as an anti-hero. Anymore reliable sources arguing either way? This might be an issue best debated in the article, or within a sub article, referencing good sources. In fact, if we could get some good referencing on different interpretations of the character, we could break out a sub article: Batman: Interpretations of the character or some such name. The anti-hero is too disputable for the article to be categorised definitively as an anti-hero, per Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and series boxes Categories appear without annotations, so be careful of NPOV when creating or filling categories. Unless it is self-evident and uncontroversial that something belongs in a category, it should not be put into a category. Hiding talk 10:59, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Maybe it is time to summarize this article, I think it could be more informative. I mean I agree Azrael killing avatoir, or Bane broking batman's back, Quakemaster, or Lex Luthor rebuilding GC are not just details. Sub-Articles are becoming necesary, that was done on Superman's page. Check Wikipedia:Summary Style-- T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 03:59, 25 February 2006 (UTC)