Case clerks: SQL ( Talk) & Bradv ( Talk) & L235 ( Talk) Drafting arbitrators: AGK ( Talk) & Opabinia regalis ( Talk)
Wikipedia Arbitration |
---|
|
Track related changes |
Behaviour on this page: Arbitration case pages exist to assist the Arbitration Committee in arriving at a fair, well-informed decision. You are required to act with appropriate decorum during this case. While grievances must often be aired during a case, you are expected to air them without being rude or hostile, and to respond calmly to allegations against you. Accusations of misbehaviour posted in this case must be proven with clear evidence (and otherwise not made at all). Editors who conduct themselves inappropriately during a case may be sanctioned by an arbitrator, clerk, or functionary, without further warning, by being banned from further participation in the case, or being blocked altogether. Personal attacks against other users, including arbitrators or the clerks, will be met with sanctions. Behavior during a case may also be considered by the committee in arriving at a final decision.
The Arbitration Committee has directed that discussion on this page must be sectioned. Unless you are an arbitrator or clerk, create a section for your comments and comment only in your own section. For the Arbitration Committee, – bradv 🍁 14:54, 9 June 2019 (UTC) |
Does my topic ban (details [1]) applies for posting evidence and commenting? If so, I would like to have it waived for that purposes, please. Thank you. GizzyCatBella ( talk) 15:14, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
@ Bradv: - can I receive a copy of this private evidence by GizzyCatBella ? I will note I considered naming GizzyCatBella as a party to the case (due to the circumstances leading to their ban, and some of their edits afterwards) - but did not in light of their already existing ban (which excludes them from much, but not all, of the topic). Icewhiz ( talk) 07:58, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
"well sourced info"while it is actually sourced to a Tripod blog (please do read WP:UGS) and a Hungarian MoD PR release which doesn't not contain the information it is being used to source. Well sourced indeed. I do suggest Stefka correct his mistake in the diff. Icewhiz ( talk) 16:54, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
Can I please have a wordcount and diff extension? The hounding diffs take up many diffs. And I can't really present misrepresentations of sources without using words (generic personal-attacks / casting aspersions / etc. - can be described with great brevity, but source misuse? Unless I leave this at a totally unclear "not so", I can't see how I can point out what isn't in the source (or contradicted by the cited source) without some more words). I will try to trim and be succinct as much as possible. Thanks! Icewhiz ( talk) 17:06, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
@
Bradv:, @
SQL:, @
AGK: - While well mannered and compromising, Piotrus has been promoting dubious sources over the past two years. In recent days - (he actually presented this in his evidence, which is how I got to it) -
[2]
[3]
[4] - he has been adding content sourced to pamiecitozsamosc.pl (per
about: "the result of many years of research carried out by the Lux Veritatis Foundation"
) run by
Lux Veritatis Foundation (Rydzyk), which probably counts as self-published, and is "Lux Veritas Foundation run by the ultra-conservative and nationalistic redemptorist Tadeusz Rydzyk, infamous for his anti-Semitic enunciations"
(from:
Wóycicka, Zofia. "Global patterns, local interpretations: new polish museums dedicated to the rescue of Jews during the Holocaust." Holocaust Studies (2019): 1-25.). Promoting such content on Wikipedia should not be acceptable.
Icewhiz (
talk) 08:45, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
In response to
diff - VM in fact exhibits here a misunderstanding of
WP:RS policy he has exhibited elsewhere - he repeatedly asserts "X is a RS" (X - name). e.g. -
diff - "Gontarczyk may be WP:BIASed, which is why the statements need to be attributed directly to him, but he is still WP:RS and notable"
(context: ""Gontarczyk's work represents a highly rationalized version of the ethno-nationalist approach, legitimizing anti-Jewish violence as national self defense, based on the perception of Jews not as a group included in the Polish nation but as an "alien and harmful nation"".
per
RS on historiography). There is a huge difference,
WP:RS wise, between published academic research by a scholar (when published in a reputable journal or academic press) and the same scholar speaking in a radio or print interview (in both cases - in venues with some question marks - e.g.
Hitler was a leftist - covering journalist involved (known also for
Pact Ribbentrop - Beck)). Off the cuff remarks, un-vetted beyond attribution to scholar, are very different from published scholarship - written after the scholar has examined his writing carefully, with citations, and peer reviewed by other scholars. This is particularly pertinent when published scholarship by the scholar paints a different picture from what was being built off from a brief aside ("same applies...") in an interview.
Contents from interview: (Polish)
Zydzi powinni zaakceptowac to, ze ich rodacy takze popelniali zbrodnie. Ja nie zamierzam przepraszac za Bermana, bo nie czuje sie odpowiedzialny za to, co zrobil. Nie bede jednak udawal, ze ten czlowiek nie istnial. Ze nie byl Zydem albo ze byl niewiniatkiem. To samo dotyczy masakry w Koniuchach, pacyfikacji Naliboków i roli, jaka odegrali w nich zydowscy partyzanci.(highlighted).
Per Google translate: (English)
Jews should accept that their countrymen also committed crimes. I am not going to apologize for Berman because he does not feel responsible for what he did. However, I will not pretend that this person did not exist. That no he was a Jew or a pagan. The same applies to the massacre in Koniuchy, pacification of the Naliboki and the role played by the Jewish partisans in them.
In regards to Polonsky -
WP:NOENG applies as well (interview in Polish, academic book in English), as does
WP:CHERRYPICK (the passage is mostly on
Jakub Berman, Koniuchy mentioned in an aside - ""The same applies to the massacre in Koniuchy, pacification of the Naliboki and the role played by the Jewish partisans in them."
- and the brief passage on Berman is after a long discussion of
Żydokomuna in Poland). In any case while Polonsky (and others) may have an expert opinion - it is false to say "Polonsky is a RS" (let alone "Gontarczyk is a RS"). When scholars publish scholarship in reputable peer reviewed journals or academic books - yes - generally a RS. When scholars say something in an interview - it can be an attributed expert opinion. And in any case - we definitely prefer a few pages of academic writing, in English, over a brief aside ("the same applies...") in a non-English media interview - particularly so when the academic writing is subsequent to the aside in the interview.
Icewhiz (
talk) 15:02, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
Since in accepting the case the ArbCom acknowledged that WP:AE has been unable to resolve the dispute because it is so involved and complicated I'm unclear how a 1000 word limit will do anything... that AE can't do (AE is 500). The dispute spans two years and involves long term abuse (yes, by Icewhiz), including numerous BLP violations across many articles (using Wikipedia articles to attack authors of sources who don't fit his POV). To establish this, one must show a pattern. And showing a long term pattern is going to take more than 1000 words and 100 diffs.
Additionally, since we're expect to offer rebuttals in our own sections on the evidence page, there is just no way that 1000 words is adequate. As I've said over and over again - it is much harder, and it takes a lot more words, to explain why something is a lie, than to lie in the first place.
Basically, with the present word limit, this case is likely to be just a glorified version of a WP:AE report and about as effective/competent in addressing the dispute. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 06:45, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
Wait, Bradv, so can we post "analysis of Evidence" in the Workshop? Like not exactly "rebuttals" but ... "analysis" or clarifications? Also, who is User:Stefka Bulgaria and what is she doing here (afaik never seen them in this topic area before) and why is Icewhiz clarifying "what she really meant" for her? Volunteer Marek ( talk) 00:10, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
@ AGK: Well, last time I had anything to do with an ArbCom case was over 10 years ago, but back then it was actually the Workshop page where most of the rebuttals of other editors' accusations would go, as "Analysis of Evidence". Which made sense since it's actually the rebuttals that burn up most of the word limit (as I've said several times already, it takes just a single sentence to accuse, it takes multiple paragraphs to explain why a particular accusation is bunk. Sheesh, I feel like I need to write a full Snopes type fact-cheking article for every "meme" -ish type accusations that others make. That would leave the space in Evidence page for actual diffs. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 04:51, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
Since User:François Robere has chosen to make himself a part of this case by posting extensive evidence, and since he and Icewhiz regularly edit together [5] (sometimes within seconds of each other on same article or talk page - about 60-70 articles in the topic area), and ALWAYS in agreement with one another, and since François Robere almost always shows up in WP:AE and other drama board discussions to support Icewhiz I propose that he be added to the case as a party. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 17:34, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
I had the same question as FR. We were told just barely a few days ago to ask questions and for extensions here. Several people asked questions and asked for extensions. There was no reply. And then we get the (ominous voice) "the evidence is about to close!" message. Ok... but did I get the extension? Same thing goes for the proposals to add other parties to the case. In fact, some of these were made almost two weeks ago. No reply on that. Obviously, whether or not a particular person is part of the case affects what evidence you present. For example, I completely ignored FR, even though they attack me and even though I have tons of evidence I could post regarding them, simply because atm they're not a party. If they were I'd write the whole thing different. But we still don't know either way and (ominous voice) "the evidence is about to close!". How are we suppose to do anything under these circumstances? I understand that the ArbCom is busy, especially last couple weeks what with all the other drama that happened on Wikipedia and WMF, but that would've precisely been a good reason to extend the deadline by a few weeks. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 17:44, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
User:Icewhiz says: we prefer an academic book (with a few pages of content on topic), in English, by Polonsky over a passing sentence (taken out of context) in an interview in Polish newspaper conducted by Piotr Zychowicz
The actual problem is that you are pretending that the interview with Polonsky is not a source by Polonsky. How the hey does that work? What does it matter who the interviewer was? Are you claiming the interviewer falsified what Polonsky said? No? Then stop bringing it up as it's irrelevant. These are Polonsky's words. Your "we prefer an academic book" part is a
red herring as that's not what we're discussing here. We can use BOTH the book with Polonsky and the interview with Polonsky, no? You're trying to set up a
false dichotomy here so that you have an excuse to use one source by Polonsky (which you fits the preconceived POV narrative you wish to create) but reject another source by Polonsky (which doesn't fit the preconceived POV narrative you wish to create). This is peak cynicism and the very definition of
WP:TENDENTIOUS.
Volunteer Marek (
talk) 06:45, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
@ Bradv: Ok, so evidence's closed, but in compiling the evidence against Icewhiz, because there's so much to chose from, I did miss another instance of him attacking BLPs which I think is particularly important and that's his attacks on the historian Gunnar S. Paulsson, where, again Icewhiz tries to stuff the article full of negative reviews of the subject's work, and describes him in derisive terms ("mid-life History PhD" (why the f does that matter?)), speculates about the subject's tenure at a university (just like with Norman Davies) and emphasizes a minor lawsuit the subject was involved in on talk. Even User:K.e.coffman, who has otherwise consistently supported Icewhiz, thought this was a bit too much and told him to lay off [6] [7].
This particular violation is important because it shows Icewhiz will attack not just Polish historians, but also British, American, Israeli and in this case, Swedish, if they don't agree with his POV. The pettiness and the practice of turning these BLP subjects articles into attack pages is potentially quite dangerous and harmful to the subjects' careers. It goes 100% against what Wikipedia is suppose to be about.
It's probably to late too include this somewhere in my evidence but I do want it noted as it's a particularly obnoxious violation and also part of a bigger pattern. Pinging clerk just in case this doesn't belong here. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 02:14, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
And here too, derisively calling Paulsson "Polocaust proponent" (uses offensive derogatory term) and contrasting him, without any back up, with "mainline scholars" (sic), which falsely suggests Paulsson is FRINGE. He's not. He's the author of one of the authoritative books on the subject. Man, it's like you pick an edit by Icewhiz at random, and it's problematic. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 02:27, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
Same, unless it is posted in public later. While I'm not a party to this case, GCB and I had much back-and-forth in this area, and I'd like the chance to review her comments if they enter the record. François Robere ( talk) 21:00, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
@ Bradv: Requesting a length exception for the tables I just added. I'll try to keep other commentary brief. François Robere ( talk) 23:02, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
@ Bradv: Does the committee take into account TE/SPA as part of these proceedings? François Robere ( talk) 17:51, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
@ My very best wishes: Which is why I added the RfC analysis. It shows you how far some editors are from the consensus (which includes uninvolved editors), and by extension from DUE and NEUTRALITY. François Robere ( talk) 17:51, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
@ SQL: Some claims have been made against me by another editor, but I'm at the word limit. Request extension. François Robere ( talk) 10:45, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
@ Volunteer Marek: Just to counter your points below (without swerving too much into "evidence", like you):
@ SQL: How should we deal with the word extension and the time limit? Shall I add my second evidence section and you will trim it - and only it - in case an extension is not granted? François Robere ( talk) 16:11, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
I second VM on the word limit being too short. In particular, it prevents parties from presenting their own analysis of diffs, and makes rebuttals very difficult.
I also think GCB should be allowed to post any evidence she wishes in public. I would like to see it too, and perhaps other parties as well.
Lastly, I am unsure if the content of my current section is actually 'evidence', and I'd appreciate comment on whether it should be moved to a different arbcom page or talk. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:04, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
What is the word limit now? One party has presented evidence that while not finished yet has already over 3k words. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:59, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
One of the options here is using Analysis of evidence in Workshop. I guess this is going to be used because the amount of ridiculous claims on the Evidence page is staggering. For example, user Stefka Bulgaria just posted a claim about my alleged "tag teaming" [10] and provided this diff (his #6) in support. No, I did not tag team with user ... Icewhiz by responding to his ping. Neither I tag team with anyone else. My very best wishes ( talk) 16:29, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
I find the word limits baffling. I estimate around 1600 words being written against VM, and 2300 words being written against Icewhiz. I'm not sure how either of them can adequately defend themselves in 1000 words. It seems like the shields will run out sooner or later - then the more shots fired, the more will land. starship .paint ( talk) 01:38, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
I wonder if the current case name unnecessarily limits the topic area under disputes. I feel that "Jewish-Polish relations" would cover the subject better. It also sounds more descriptive without passing a value judgement. -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 03:17, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
I would like to extend the word limit allowed on this case. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 18:22, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
@ My very best wishes: Have you considered asking the clerks to add you as a party to this case? You'd get to have double the word count, and you seem rather involved anyways. – MJL ‐Talk‐ ☖ 19:50, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
I'm totally uninvolved with this and my brain is too tiny to make any sense of what the dispute is about, so I'm not on any side. But MyMoloboaccount's claim
seemed narrow and specific enough that I could check it directly. Surprisingly, even after reading the relevant sentence carefully, I still can't tell whether a falsification happened. I'm not worried about the page 280 vs page 283 discrepancy. Page 280 is where the cited article starts in the book, and 283 is the 3rd page of the article. MyMoloboaccount's screen shot (in part) says:
I underlined the sentence that I think is the disputed one. MyMolokoaccount's diff shows Icewhiz writing:
That is, Icewhiz wrote "The self defense unit" (referring to one mentioned earlier in the paragraph) while Bilewicz and Vollhart's article says "the formerly anti-fascist local branch of the Polish Home Army" led by "the perceived need for self-defence". (The rest of the sentence matches the diff). So were the "self defense unit" and the local branch of the Polish Home Army the same thing? I don't know. If Mymolokoaccount says they are different, some explanation is needed. The underlined sentence in Bilewicz and Vollhart's article cites the sources
and
which could help clarify what Bilewicz and Vollhart were referring to. The paragraph (further up) also cites the book
and the movie of similar name (Defiance).
One could also possibly say Icewhiz's use of that citation took it out of context, since the cited article described a situation where there was so much food scarcity etc. that pretty much everyone was killing everyone else, as opposed to locals carrying out pogroms just for the heck of it. I'll leave that question to others.
I haven't attempted to check any of the follow-on sources but my library has the Grossman book so I could go look at it if someone requests it. The Głuchowski and Kowalski book ( OCLC 316544358) is available by ILL but it's written in Polish so I'm not qualified to check it. The Tec book is available in a variety of formats (my library has it as an audio book) which is consistent with the claim that it is widely read.
What I conclude is that this issue is complicated. I haven't looked much at any of the other evidence and I don't have any more to add. I now return you to your regularly scheduled bickering. 173.228.123.207 ( talk) 02:15, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
All submissions of evidence are generally limited to 500 words and 50 diffs, doubled for parties. Any user is entitled, as always, to request permission to run longer than this evidence.
Effective immediately, for this arbitration case alone, a user may request permission to take an additional length allowance of 500 words and 50 diffs, doubled for parties, in order to deal with matters not addressed in their existing submission.
When requesting permission, parties should set out the issues they wish to address in their additional evidence.
After being granted permission, parties should clearly separate their evidence into "portions", each of 500 words and 50 diffs (or 1000 words and 100 diffs, for parties). To separate, you may simply use {{ hr|3}}.
The committee does not expect any party to request multiple additional length allowances in order to rebut other users' evidence.
Presently, a number of parties have made submissions that are over length. If this applies to you, you are requested to organise the evidence by "issue" so as to allow evaluation of a request for additional length allowances. The clerks will begin refactoring or removing non-compliant submissions very soon.
Questions about this process may be asked below this section, but please use the provided format and adhere to the direction against threaded discussion. AGK ■ 22:55, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
Can I please have an additional section for dubious source use by Piotrus + Holocaust rescue (related one to eachother)? This was not in my original submission (I have a rough draft in place in my current submission - which is being refactored). I intend to present in this section NPOV issues (e.g. COATRACK use of ghetto articles) and dubious sources that are use in contravention of WP:QS. Icewhiz ( talk) 08:35, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
Can I please have the extra extension?
Also is there any way we can have at least the weekend to finish up? Got work and travel during the week and I don't think it's an unreasonable request. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 08:55, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
Asking for an extension per the above. François Robere ( talk) 17:07, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
Yes, I would like to ask for extension of evidence word limit. Do I understand that we have till end of 23 June to present evidence or till 23rd of June to do so? It isn't clear to me. I planned on finishing my evidence on Sunday 23rd, also perhaps clerks could inform the participants of evidence page on their talk pages rather in a bit obscure area?-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 10:27, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
As far as I can tell my limit is 1,000 and I have 950 words so I assume I am ok. Please ping me if this is not the case. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 15:34, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
Can I please have an extension by ~150 words (current size of my statement is ~650 words)? The behavior here is complex and therefore requires more space to explain. Thanks, My very best wishes ( talk) 23:34, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
Just a reminder, the evidence phase is currently set to close in less than 24 hours. SQL Query me! 04:23, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
Case clerks: SQL ( Talk) & Bradv ( Talk) & L235 ( Talk) Drafting arbitrators: AGK ( Talk) & Opabinia regalis ( Talk)
Wikipedia Arbitration |
---|
|
Track related changes |
Behaviour on this page: Arbitration case pages exist to assist the Arbitration Committee in arriving at a fair, well-informed decision. You are required to act with appropriate decorum during this case. While grievances must often be aired during a case, you are expected to air them without being rude or hostile, and to respond calmly to allegations against you. Accusations of misbehaviour posted in this case must be proven with clear evidence (and otherwise not made at all). Editors who conduct themselves inappropriately during a case may be sanctioned by an arbitrator, clerk, or functionary, without further warning, by being banned from further participation in the case, or being blocked altogether. Personal attacks against other users, including arbitrators or the clerks, will be met with sanctions. Behavior during a case may also be considered by the committee in arriving at a final decision.
The Arbitration Committee has directed that discussion on this page must be sectioned. Unless you are an arbitrator or clerk, create a section for your comments and comment only in your own section. For the Arbitration Committee, – bradv 🍁 14:54, 9 June 2019 (UTC) |
Does my topic ban (details [1]) applies for posting evidence and commenting? If so, I would like to have it waived for that purposes, please. Thank you. GizzyCatBella ( talk) 15:14, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
@ Bradv: - can I receive a copy of this private evidence by GizzyCatBella ? I will note I considered naming GizzyCatBella as a party to the case (due to the circumstances leading to their ban, and some of their edits afterwards) - but did not in light of their already existing ban (which excludes them from much, but not all, of the topic). Icewhiz ( talk) 07:58, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
"well sourced info"while it is actually sourced to a Tripod blog (please do read WP:UGS) and a Hungarian MoD PR release which doesn't not contain the information it is being used to source. Well sourced indeed. I do suggest Stefka correct his mistake in the diff. Icewhiz ( talk) 16:54, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
Can I please have a wordcount and diff extension? The hounding diffs take up many diffs. And I can't really present misrepresentations of sources without using words (generic personal-attacks / casting aspersions / etc. - can be described with great brevity, but source misuse? Unless I leave this at a totally unclear "not so", I can't see how I can point out what isn't in the source (or contradicted by the cited source) without some more words). I will try to trim and be succinct as much as possible. Thanks! Icewhiz ( talk) 17:06, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
@
Bradv:, @
SQL:, @
AGK: - While well mannered and compromising, Piotrus has been promoting dubious sources over the past two years. In recent days - (he actually presented this in his evidence, which is how I got to it) -
[2]
[3]
[4] - he has been adding content sourced to pamiecitozsamosc.pl (per
about: "the result of many years of research carried out by the Lux Veritatis Foundation"
) run by
Lux Veritatis Foundation (Rydzyk), which probably counts as self-published, and is "Lux Veritas Foundation run by the ultra-conservative and nationalistic redemptorist Tadeusz Rydzyk, infamous for his anti-Semitic enunciations"
(from:
Wóycicka, Zofia. "Global patterns, local interpretations: new polish museums dedicated to the rescue of Jews during the Holocaust." Holocaust Studies (2019): 1-25.). Promoting such content on Wikipedia should not be acceptable.
Icewhiz (
talk) 08:45, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
In response to
diff - VM in fact exhibits here a misunderstanding of
WP:RS policy he has exhibited elsewhere - he repeatedly asserts "X is a RS" (X - name). e.g. -
diff - "Gontarczyk may be WP:BIASed, which is why the statements need to be attributed directly to him, but he is still WP:RS and notable"
(context: ""Gontarczyk's work represents a highly rationalized version of the ethno-nationalist approach, legitimizing anti-Jewish violence as national self defense, based on the perception of Jews not as a group included in the Polish nation but as an "alien and harmful nation"".
per
RS on historiography). There is a huge difference,
WP:RS wise, between published academic research by a scholar (when published in a reputable journal or academic press) and the same scholar speaking in a radio or print interview (in both cases - in venues with some question marks - e.g.
Hitler was a leftist - covering journalist involved (known also for
Pact Ribbentrop - Beck)). Off the cuff remarks, un-vetted beyond attribution to scholar, are very different from published scholarship - written after the scholar has examined his writing carefully, with citations, and peer reviewed by other scholars. This is particularly pertinent when published scholarship by the scholar paints a different picture from what was being built off from a brief aside ("same applies...") in an interview.
Contents from interview: (Polish)
Zydzi powinni zaakceptowac to, ze ich rodacy takze popelniali zbrodnie. Ja nie zamierzam przepraszac za Bermana, bo nie czuje sie odpowiedzialny za to, co zrobil. Nie bede jednak udawal, ze ten czlowiek nie istnial. Ze nie byl Zydem albo ze byl niewiniatkiem. To samo dotyczy masakry w Koniuchach, pacyfikacji Naliboków i roli, jaka odegrali w nich zydowscy partyzanci.(highlighted).
Per Google translate: (English)
Jews should accept that their countrymen also committed crimes. I am not going to apologize for Berman because he does not feel responsible for what he did. However, I will not pretend that this person did not exist. That no he was a Jew or a pagan. The same applies to the massacre in Koniuchy, pacification of the Naliboki and the role played by the Jewish partisans in them.
In regards to Polonsky -
WP:NOENG applies as well (interview in Polish, academic book in English), as does
WP:CHERRYPICK (the passage is mostly on
Jakub Berman, Koniuchy mentioned in an aside - ""The same applies to the massacre in Koniuchy, pacification of the Naliboki and the role played by the Jewish partisans in them."
- and the brief passage on Berman is after a long discussion of
Żydokomuna in Poland). In any case while Polonsky (and others) may have an expert opinion - it is false to say "Polonsky is a RS" (let alone "Gontarczyk is a RS"). When scholars publish scholarship in reputable peer reviewed journals or academic books - yes - generally a RS. When scholars say something in an interview - it can be an attributed expert opinion. And in any case - we definitely prefer a few pages of academic writing, in English, over a brief aside ("the same applies...") in a non-English media interview - particularly so when the academic writing is subsequent to the aside in the interview.
Icewhiz (
talk) 15:02, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
Since in accepting the case the ArbCom acknowledged that WP:AE has been unable to resolve the dispute because it is so involved and complicated I'm unclear how a 1000 word limit will do anything... that AE can't do (AE is 500). The dispute spans two years and involves long term abuse (yes, by Icewhiz), including numerous BLP violations across many articles (using Wikipedia articles to attack authors of sources who don't fit his POV). To establish this, one must show a pattern. And showing a long term pattern is going to take more than 1000 words and 100 diffs.
Additionally, since we're expect to offer rebuttals in our own sections on the evidence page, there is just no way that 1000 words is adequate. As I've said over and over again - it is much harder, and it takes a lot more words, to explain why something is a lie, than to lie in the first place.
Basically, with the present word limit, this case is likely to be just a glorified version of a WP:AE report and about as effective/competent in addressing the dispute. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 06:45, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
Wait, Bradv, so can we post "analysis of Evidence" in the Workshop? Like not exactly "rebuttals" but ... "analysis" or clarifications? Also, who is User:Stefka Bulgaria and what is she doing here (afaik never seen them in this topic area before) and why is Icewhiz clarifying "what she really meant" for her? Volunteer Marek ( talk) 00:10, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
@ AGK: Well, last time I had anything to do with an ArbCom case was over 10 years ago, but back then it was actually the Workshop page where most of the rebuttals of other editors' accusations would go, as "Analysis of Evidence". Which made sense since it's actually the rebuttals that burn up most of the word limit (as I've said several times already, it takes just a single sentence to accuse, it takes multiple paragraphs to explain why a particular accusation is bunk. Sheesh, I feel like I need to write a full Snopes type fact-cheking article for every "meme" -ish type accusations that others make. That would leave the space in Evidence page for actual diffs. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 04:51, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
Since User:François Robere has chosen to make himself a part of this case by posting extensive evidence, and since he and Icewhiz regularly edit together [5] (sometimes within seconds of each other on same article or talk page - about 60-70 articles in the topic area), and ALWAYS in agreement with one another, and since François Robere almost always shows up in WP:AE and other drama board discussions to support Icewhiz I propose that he be added to the case as a party. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 17:34, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
I had the same question as FR. We were told just barely a few days ago to ask questions and for extensions here. Several people asked questions and asked for extensions. There was no reply. And then we get the (ominous voice) "the evidence is about to close!" message. Ok... but did I get the extension? Same thing goes for the proposals to add other parties to the case. In fact, some of these were made almost two weeks ago. No reply on that. Obviously, whether or not a particular person is part of the case affects what evidence you present. For example, I completely ignored FR, even though they attack me and even though I have tons of evidence I could post regarding them, simply because atm they're not a party. If they were I'd write the whole thing different. But we still don't know either way and (ominous voice) "the evidence is about to close!". How are we suppose to do anything under these circumstances? I understand that the ArbCom is busy, especially last couple weeks what with all the other drama that happened on Wikipedia and WMF, but that would've precisely been a good reason to extend the deadline by a few weeks. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 17:44, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
User:Icewhiz says: we prefer an academic book (with a few pages of content on topic), in English, by Polonsky over a passing sentence (taken out of context) in an interview in Polish newspaper conducted by Piotr Zychowicz
The actual problem is that you are pretending that the interview with Polonsky is not a source by Polonsky. How the hey does that work? What does it matter who the interviewer was? Are you claiming the interviewer falsified what Polonsky said? No? Then stop bringing it up as it's irrelevant. These are Polonsky's words. Your "we prefer an academic book" part is a
red herring as that's not what we're discussing here. We can use BOTH the book with Polonsky and the interview with Polonsky, no? You're trying to set up a
false dichotomy here so that you have an excuse to use one source by Polonsky (which you fits the preconceived POV narrative you wish to create) but reject another source by Polonsky (which doesn't fit the preconceived POV narrative you wish to create). This is peak cynicism and the very definition of
WP:TENDENTIOUS.
Volunteer Marek (
talk) 06:45, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
@ Bradv: Ok, so evidence's closed, but in compiling the evidence against Icewhiz, because there's so much to chose from, I did miss another instance of him attacking BLPs which I think is particularly important and that's his attacks on the historian Gunnar S. Paulsson, where, again Icewhiz tries to stuff the article full of negative reviews of the subject's work, and describes him in derisive terms ("mid-life History PhD" (why the f does that matter?)), speculates about the subject's tenure at a university (just like with Norman Davies) and emphasizes a minor lawsuit the subject was involved in on talk. Even User:K.e.coffman, who has otherwise consistently supported Icewhiz, thought this was a bit too much and told him to lay off [6] [7].
This particular violation is important because it shows Icewhiz will attack not just Polish historians, but also British, American, Israeli and in this case, Swedish, if they don't agree with his POV. The pettiness and the practice of turning these BLP subjects articles into attack pages is potentially quite dangerous and harmful to the subjects' careers. It goes 100% against what Wikipedia is suppose to be about.
It's probably to late too include this somewhere in my evidence but I do want it noted as it's a particularly obnoxious violation and also part of a bigger pattern. Pinging clerk just in case this doesn't belong here. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 02:14, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
And here too, derisively calling Paulsson "Polocaust proponent" (uses offensive derogatory term) and contrasting him, without any back up, with "mainline scholars" (sic), which falsely suggests Paulsson is FRINGE. He's not. He's the author of one of the authoritative books on the subject. Man, it's like you pick an edit by Icewhiz at random, and it's problematic. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 02:27, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
Same, unless it is posted in public later. While I'm not a party to this case, GCB and I had much back-and-forth in this area, and I'd like the chance to review her comments if they enter the record. François Robere ( talk) 21:00, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
@ Bradv: Requesting a length exception for the tables I just added. I'll try to keep other commentary brief. François Robere ( talk) 23:02, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
@ Bradv: Does the committee take into account TE/SPA as part of these proceedings? François Robere ( talk) 17:51, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
@ My very best wishes: Which is why I added the RfC analysis. It shows you how far some editors are from the consensus (which includes uninvolved editors), and by extension from DUE and NEUTRALITY. François Robere ( talk) 17:51, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
@ SQL: Some claims have been made against me by another editor, but I'm at the word limit. Request extension. François Robere ( talk) 10:45, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
@ Volunteer Marek: Just to counter your points below (without swerving too much into "evidence", like you):
@ SQL: How should we deal with the word extension and the time limit? Shall I add my second evidence section and you will trim it - and only it - in case an extension is not granted? François Robere ( talk) 16:11, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
I second VM on the word limit being too short. In particular, it prevents parties from presenting their own analysis of diffs, and makes rebuttals very difficult.
I also think GCB should be allowed to post any evidence she wishes in public. I would like to see it too, and perhaps other parties as well.
Lastly, I am unsure if the content of my current section is actually 'evidence', and I'd appreciate comment on whether it should be moved to a different arbcom page or talk. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:04, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
What is the word limit now? One party has presented evidence that while not finished yet has already over 3k words. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:59, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
One of the options here is using Analysis of evidence in Workshop. I guess this is going to be used because the amount of ridiculous claims on the Evidence page is staggering. For example, user Stefka Bulgaria just posted a claim about my alleged "tag teaming" [10] and provided this diff (his #6) in support. No, I did not tag team with user ... Icewhiz by responding to his ping. Neither I tag team with anyone else. My very best wishes ( talk) 16:29, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
I find the word limits baffling. I estimate around 1600 words being written against VM, and 2300 words being written against Icewhiz. I'm not sure how either of them can adequately defend themselves in 1000 words. It seems like the shields will run out sooner or later - then the more shots fired, the more will land. starship .paint ( talk) 01:38, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
I wonder if the current case name unnecessarily limits the topic area under disputes. I feel that "Jewish-Polish relations" would cover the subject better. It also sounds more descriptive without passing a value judgement. -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 03:17, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
I would like to extend the word limit allowed on this case. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 18:22, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
@ My very best wishes: Have you considered asking the clerks to add you as a party to this case? You'd get to have double the word count, and you seem rather involved anyways. – MJL ‐Talk‐ ☖ 19:50, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
I'm totally uninvolved with this and my brain is too tiny to make any sense of what the dispute is about, so I'm not on any side. But MyMoloboaccount's claim
seemed narrow and specific enough that I could check it directly. Surprisingly, even after reading the relevant sentence carefully, I still can't tell whether a falsification happened. I'm not worried about the page 280 vs page 283 discrepancy. Page 280 is where the cited article starts in the book, and 283 is the 3rd page of the article. MyMoloboaccount's screen shot (in part) says:
I underlined the sentence that I think is the disputed one. MyMolokoaccount's diff shows Icewhiz writing:
That is, Icewhiz wrote "The self defense unit" (referring to one mentioned earlier in the paragraph) while Bilewicz and Vollhart's article says "the formerly anti-fascist local branch of the Polish Home Army" led by "the perceived need for self-defence". (The rest of the sentence matches the diff). So were the "self defense unit" and the local branch of the Polish Home Army the same thing? I don't know. If Mymolokoaccount says they are different, some explanation is needed. The underlined sentence in Bilewicz and Vollhart's article cites the sources
and
which could help clarify what Bilewicz and Vollhart were referring to. The paragraph (further up) also cites the book
and the movie of similar name (Defiance).
One could also possibly say Icewhiz's use of that citation took it out of context, since the cited article described a situation where there was so much food scarcity etc. that pretty much everyone was killing everyone else, as opposed to locals carrying out pogroms just for the heck of it. I'll leave that question to others.
I haven't attempted to check any of the follow-on sources but my library has the Grossman book so I could go look at it if someone requests it. The Głuchowski and Kowalski book ( OCLC 316544358) is available by ILL but it's written in Polish so I'm not qualified to check it. The Tec book is available in a variety of formats (my library has it as an audio book) which is consistent with the claim that it is widely read.
What I conclude is that this issue is complicated. I haven't looked much at any of the other evidence and I don't have any more to add. I now return you to your regularly scheduled bickering. 173.228.123.207 ( talk) 02:15, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
All submissions of evidence are generally limited to 500 words and 50 diffs, doubled for parties. Any user is entitled, as always, to request permission to run longer than this evidence.
Effective immediately, for this arbitration case alone, a user may request permission to take an additional length allowance of 500 words and 50 diffs, doubled for parties, in order to deal with matters not addressed in their existing submission.
When requesting permission, parties should set out the issues they wish to address in their additional evidence.
After being granted permission, parties should clearly separate their evidence into "portions", each of 500 words and 50 diffs (or 1000 words and 100 diffs, for parties). To separate, you may simply use {{ hr|3}}.
The committee does not expect any party to request multiple additional length allowances in order to rebut other users' evidence.
Presently, a number of parties have made submissions that are over length. If this applies to you, you are requested to organise the evidence by "issue" so as to allow evaluation of a request for additional length allowances. The clerks will begin refactoring or removing non-compliant submissions very soon.
Questions about this process may be asked below this section, but please use the provided format and adhere to the direction against threaded discussion. AGK ■ 22:55, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
Can I please have an additional section for dubious source use by Piotrus + Holocaust rescue (related one to eachother)? This was not in my original submission (I have a rough draft in place in my current submission - which is being refactored). I intend to present in this section NPOV issues (e.g. COATRACK use of ghetto articles) and dubious sources that are use in contravention of WP:QS. Icewhiz ( talk) 08:35, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
Can I please have the extra extension?
Also is there any way we can have at least the weekend to finish up? Got work and travel during the week and I don't think it's an unreasonable request. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 08:55, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
Asking for an extension per the above. François Robere ( talk) 17:07, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
Yes, I would like to ask for extension of evidence word limit. Do I understand that we have till end of 23 June to present evidence or till 23rd of June to do so? It isn't clear to me. I planned on finishing my evidence on Sunday 23rd, also perhaps clerks could inform the participants of evidence page on their talk pages rather in a bit obscure area?-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 10:27, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
As far as I can tell my limit is 1,000 and I have 950 words so I assume I am ok. Please ping me if this is not the case. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 15:34, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
Can I please have an extension by ~150 words (current size of my statement is ~650 words)? The behavior here is complex and therefore requires more space to explain. Thanks, My very best wishes ( talk) 23:34, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
Just a reminder, the evidence phase is currently set to close in less than 24 hours. SQL Query me! 04:23, 22 June 2019 (UTC)