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Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | → | Archive 20 |
Hi everyone, I'm trying to get the Quebec City article to GA status. It's a tall order and I could use all the help I can get. Please stop by and lend a hand, this city is one of Canada's jewels. Alan.ca ( talk)
I have nominated Kolkata for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here.)
I have been editing several cities in Iowa lately and I have a question about population density. The definition of population density on the population density wikipedia page and in the source that it references is "Population density is population divided by total land area". Also I looked back at the old Rambot edits and population density on those edits was being calculated by dividing population just by the total amount of land, not land and water combined. So this is how I have been calculating population density for my edits, but I've noticed that the auto function that can be used in the infobox to calculate population density uses total area rather than just land. So which method of calculation should I be using? Jamo2008 ( talk) 17:52, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
|population_density_sq_mi = auto <!-- automatically calculates pop densities for both sq mi and km2-->
I recently put in a peer review for Berlin. I would like to see Berlin get up to featured article status. Peer reviews would be appreciate. Kingjeff ( talk) 03:51, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
Recently John has started removing flag icons from lists of twin towns in articles on cities in France. My own feeling is that with bare lists, often quite long, flag icons are helpful to the reader. The use of flags is something which happens in real life in this particular context. At least to the sighted it makes countries involved in these international goodwill relations easily recognizable.
On wikipedia there is no uniformity in the way twinning is described in articles: sometimes it can be a bare list; sometimes a few sentences; and sometimes twinning is not mentioned at all in the article, even where it occurs. That is the case with San Francisco (the only use of "twin" in that article is for Twin Peaks). Many large cities in the USA, however, including Boston, Chicago, Los Angeles and Philadelphia, all use flag icons in the lists. John has not yet removed flag icons from those articles, but has tentatively started separate discussion on Talk:Chicago and Talk:Los Angeles to remove the flag icons.
In discussing the applicability of WP:MOSICON, several editors have pointed out that WP:WORDPRECEDENT covers bare lists of this type. List format in many cases has historically been the preferred method of presenting twinning arrangements. The list articles giving all known twinning for cities in vatious countries are all accompanied by flag icons (see Category:Lists of twin towns and sister cities).
Other users have suggested that the discussions on flag icons should take place here, as the issues are no different between say Nashville, Tennessee and Leipzig. At present I am somewhat puzzled why there should be any difference between cities in France and cities in the United States. Any guidance about the use of flag icons for lists of twinning arrangements would therefore be welcome. Most editors, including me, do not consider this a burning issue, so this latest set of edits by John is slightly surprising. Mathsci ( talk) 21:38, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
( edit conflict)I don't think the use of flags is to the detriment of the project. I think they make bare lists more readable. I think John seems to have got a bee in his bonnet about this. The ambiguity of the Scottish flag or Union Jack is a problem, more minor than the Troubles, but related to conflicting views on devolution in the United Kingdom. That is a side issue: one solution has been to use both flags. Many editors have pointed out that the correct policy is WP:WORDPRECEDENT. John has unilaterally removed flag icons from several articles on cities in France. He has started discussions on Talk:Chicago and Talk:Los Angeles, but has not removed the icons from any lists there yet. Thanks for moving this discussion here, so that the USA is now discussed along with the rest of the world. Mathsci ( talk) 22:19, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
Note—There was a lengthy discussion of this in 2010 here: Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(icons)/Archive_8#Town-twinning_and_flags. I can see no definite conclusion that was reached there.— alf laylah wa laylah ( talk) 22:36, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
Note— It appears there is a project guideline at Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities/US Guideline#Sister cities. I don't think there has been a construction of general guidelines in the past, that has displaced that guideline. So, I can't think that current MOS would prohibit such flag use. Some new binding wording would be needed. Alanscottwalker ( talk) 22:51, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
Note—I left a neutral notification of the existence of this discussion here: Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Icons#flag_icons_in_sister.2Ftwinned_cities.— alf laylah wa laylah ( talk) 22:59, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
Note— See also, Wikipedia:WikiProject Japan/Districts and municipalities task force/guideline#Sister cities. Alanscottwalker ( talk) 23:23, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
Comment I agree with John above, that flagicons in sister/twin cities sections are problematic, as undue weight is given to the section by excessive visual decoration and undue weight is given to nationality, when the illustrated topic is in fact a link primarily between two local communities, and for the same reason it is also potentially misleading. If the aim is indeed to help identify geographic location, than a map with dots ( example1, example2) is far more precise and informative. -- ELEKHH T 00:39, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
Comment I commented about the flag question on talk:Chicago, but now I see the main discussion is happening here. I agree with the general view above that it's better for the lists to not include flags. Would it be all right to start removing them from some of these articles? Zeromus1 ( talk) 19:13, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
Keep flags—As has been noted, it's not logically possible that the use of the flags violates any policy or guideline. WP:ICONDECORATION only discusses purely decorative icons. Thus it cannot be plausibly invoked as a reason to eliminate the flags unless supplemented with an argument that the use here is purely decorative. That section of the MOS says explicitly that Icons should serve a purpose other than solely decoration and gives as an example of this that icons may add additional information to the article subject nor navigational or layout cues that aid the reader. It seems to me that given that so many WikiProjects include these flags, the members of those projects agree that they're appropriate in this sense. I certainly do. More importantly, WP:WORDPRECEDENT tells us that In lists or tables, flag icons may be relevant when the nationality of different subjects is pertinent to the purpose of the list or table itself. I believe that that's the case here. Cities which have sister cities certainly think that the nationality of the cities are relevant. Further, I think it's worth noting that WP:INFOBOXFLAG, which is part of a policy that's broadly disapproving of flags in infoboxes in general, still recognizes that the use of flags, even in infoboxes, is appropriate for representing geographical entities: Human geographic articles - for example settlements and administrative subdivisions - may have flags of the country and first-level administrative subdivision in infoboxes. A fortiori, if they're acceptable in infoboxes to represent geographical locations, they're acceptable not in infoboxes for the same purpose and therefore the use of flag icons to represent sister cities can't violate either the spirit or the letter of the MOS. Finally, I think that given the exceedingly widespread use of flag icons in sister city lists it would be very contentious to come to any kind of conclusion without broad-based community input over a long period of time.— alf laylah wa laylah ( talk) 19:53, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
No reason to change prior consensus use Longtime usage and guideline have approved the use across articles for these lists. To me it is a style question (although that does not mean it's merely decoration). The flags are logically related to the words in the list and consensus has been amenable to their use. They do promote uniform article appearance (one way or the other). The "undue" arguments are simply unpersuasive in these often long articles. Would I personally be devastated, if they were style outlawed? No, but I would prefer not to see a wholesale "new style" debate across multiple projects and articles, and I would prefer some uniformity (at least in nation projects where such has been promoted). Alanscottwalker ( talk) 21:33, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
No reason to change prior consensus. The appearance of flags is completely in line with the spirit of international cooperation behind twinning and partnership arrangements. The idea that it harms wikipedia in any way at all is just plain silly. Please could John stop wasting other editors' time? Mathsci ( talk) 21:54, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
Query—Does anyone here still think that the MOS specifically prohibits the use of flagicons to represent sister cities as opposed to it just being a bad idea for some reason? If we can agree that the MOS does not prohibit it, we can probably end this conversation with a recommendation to those who want to dump the flags to go try to change the MOS. Thoughts?— alf laylah wa laylah ( talk) 03:25, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
San Francisco is a featured article. I personally would be loathe to mess with it myself, but anyone should try if they have the nerve!— alf laylah wa laylah ( talk) 14:43, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
Sister cities, twin towns and other international relations are all set up by local government authorities. The main sources for those arrangements are to be found on the official websites of those local authorities. That is true almost everywhere and certainly is true in France and the UK. It is hard to know where else to look for accurate and up-to-date information (for example Glasgow's twinning arrangement with Marseille started in 2006, from what I remember, so is unlikely to be reported in printed literature).
John has now challenged using official local government websites for sourcing information on these international relations. He has suggested that local government sources are primary and improper for sourcing information on twinning in the particular cases of Marseille and Aix-en-Provence. He has written that the twinning information should probably be removed from the articles unless alternative sourcing can be found.
Local government and government authorities are completely reliable for information of that kind, which is straightforward. My understanding is that similar types of sources are used for almost all articles on cities all over the world. There is no reason why local government information should be inaccurate on what are anodyne facts relayed to the general public for their information. Am I missing something here? Mathsci ( talk) 14:35, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
I can partially answer the question to John myself. On 25 August 2011, John edited several articles on cities in Scotland removing flag icons. These included Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Dumfries, Dundee, Inverness, Stirling and Perth. The edit summary for Glasgow read, "cleaned up disgusting flagcruff". [32] [33] [34] [35] [36] [37] [38] [39] [40] [41] [42] He has made similar deflagging edits to articles on cities in England in March 2012. This list is only a sample but contains most major cities. [43] [44] [45] [46] [47] [48] [49] [50] [51] [52] [53] [54] [55] [56] [57] [58] [59] [60] [61] [62] He also deflagged articles on cities in Wales and Ireland: this is just a sample. [63] [64] [65] [66] Mathsci ( talk) 00:36, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
!!
—
alf laylah wa laylah (
talk)
01:03, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
There is a Request for comment about the need/redundancy of Largest cities/city population templates. This is an open invitation for participating in the request for comment on Wikipedia:Requests for comment/City population templates. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. Mrt3366 (Talk?) (New thread?) 10:37, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
Bangkok has a "Current issues" section which discusses traffic, pollution, crime, etc. It isn't really well-written, but I was wondering whether or not the info in this section should be moved to other relevant sections, since I don't see it done this way in any other city articles. There doesn't seem to be a good section in which to put crime though. (I don't think it fits well under demographics as has been suggested.) -- Paul_012 ( talk) 16:28, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
This notice is to inform interested parties of a current discussion at Talk: Beverly Hills, California on renaming that article to "Beverly Hills". Gtwfan52 ( talk) 07:52, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
Would anyone like to start a portal on cities? The Arabic Wikipedia has ar:بوابة:مدن. Why not make Portal:Cities? WhisperToMe ( talk) 03:03, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
I've put some work into the Buford, Georgia article and I wanted to see if someone could assess it for B-class and explain what I'd need to do to get it there (and hopefully eventually GA status). I've never done a B-class assessment before and I think an uninvolved editor would be better suited than I would. - Sudo Ghost 04:08, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
I ask editors to participate in discussions on merger of Al-Kabri -> Kabri (Galilee) and on merger of al-Bassa -> Betzet (Galilee). The Al-Kabri and al-Bassa place names are essentially Arabic pronunciations for existing Kabri and Betzet (Hebrew/Canaanite pronunciations), and belong to still existent localities, with none or negligible changes in location. Currently, the Al-Kabri and al-Bassa articles claim to describe only the Palestinian Arab localities (Mandatory period), even though the villages still exist today within Israel and existed prior to the establishment of Mandatory Palestine (Ottoman and Mamluk periods and earlier). I hence proposed that those articles be merged into Kabri and Betzet accordingly. This merger is in accordance with similar cases of Amka, Ashdod and Caesarea, though in one case the merger was not agreed upon (case of Alma, Palestine and Alma, Israel). Greyshark09 ( talk) 21:54, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | → | Archive 20 |
Hi everyone, I'm trying to get the Quebec City article to GA status. It's a tall order and I could use all the help I can get. Please stop by and lend a hand, this city is one of Canada's jewels. Alan.ca ( talk)
I have nominated Kolkata for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here.)
I have been editing several cities in Iowa lately and I have a question about population density. The definition of population density on the population density wikipedia page and in the source that it references is "Population density is population divided by total land area". Also I looked back at the old Rambot edits and population density on those edits was being calculated by dividing population just by the total amount of land, not land and water combined. So this is how I have been calculating population density for my edits, but I've noticed that the auto function that can be used in the infobox to calculate population density uses total area rather than just land. So which method of calculation should I be using? Jamo2008 ( talk) 17:52, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
|population_density_sq_mi = auto <!-- automatically calculates pop densities for both sq mi and km2-->
I recently put in a peer review for Berlin. I would like to see Berlin get up to featured article status. Peer reviews would be appreciate. Kingjeff ( talk) 03:51, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
Recently John has started removing flag icons from lists of twin towns in articles on cities in France. My own feeling is that with bare lists, often quite long, flag icons are helpful to the reader. The use of flags is something which happens in real life in this particular context. At least to the sighted it makes countries involved in these international goodwill relations easily recognizable.
On wikipedia there is no uniformity in the way twinning is described in articles: sometimes it can be a bare list; sometimes a few sentences; and sometimes twinning is not mentioned at all in the article, even where it occurs. That is the case with San Francisco (the only use of "twin" in that article is for Twin Peaks). Many large cities in the USA, however, including Boston, Chicago, Los Angeles and Philadelphia, all use flag icons in the lists. John has not yet removed flag icons from those articles, but has tentatively started separate discussion on Talk:Chicago and Talk:Los Angeles to remove the flag icons.
In discussing the applicability of WP:MOSICON, several editors have pointed out that WP:WORDPRECEDENT covers bare lists of this type. List format in many cases has historically been the preferred method of presenting twinning arrangements. The list articles giving all known twinning for cities in vatious countries are all accompanied by flag icons (see Category:Lists of twin towns and sister cities).
Other users have suggested that the discussions on flag icons should take place here, as the issues are no different between say Nashville, Tennessee and Leipzig. At present I am somewhat puzzled why there should be any difference between cities in France and cities in the United States. Any guidance about the use of flag icons for lists of twinning arrangements would therefore be welcome. Most editors, including me, do not consider this a burning issue, so this latest set of edits by John is slightly surprising. Mathsci ( talk) 21:38, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
( edit conflict)I don't think the use of flags is to the detriment of the project. I think they make bare lists more readable. I think John seems to have got a bee in his bonnet about this. The ambiguity of the Scottish flag or Union Jack is a problem, more minor than the Troubles, but related to conflicting views on devolution in the United Kingdom. That is a side issue: one solution has been to use both flags. Many editors have pointed out that the correct policy is WP:WORDPRECEDENT. John has unilaterally removed flag icons from several articles on cities in France. He has started discussions on Talk:Chicago and Talk:Los Angeles, but has not removed the icons from any lists there yet. Thanks for moving this discussion here, so that the USA is now discussed along with the rest of the world. Mathsci ( talk) 22:19, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
Note—There was a lengthy discussion of this in 2010 here: Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(icons)/Archive_8#Town-twinning_and_flags. I can see no definite conclusion that was reached there.— alf laylah wa laylah ( talk) 22:36, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
Note— It appears there is a project guideline at Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities/US Guideline#Sister cities. I don't think there has been a construction of general guidelines in the past, that has displaced that guideline. So, I can't think that current MOS would prohibit such flag use. Some new binding wording would be needed. Alanscottwalker ( talk) 22:51, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
Note—I left a neutral notification of the existence of this discussion here: Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Icons#flag_icons_in_sister.2Ftwinned_cities.— alf laylah wa laylah ( talk) 22:59, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
Note— See also, Wikipedia:WikiProject Japan/Districts and municipalities task force/guideline#Sister cities. Alanscottwalker ( talk) 23:23, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
Comment I agree with John above, that flagicons in sister/twin cities sections are problematic, as undue weight is given to the section by excessive visual decoration and undue weight is given to nationality, when the illustrated topic is in fact a link primarily between two local communities, and for the same reason it is also potentially misleading. If the aim is indeed to help identify geographic location, than a map with dots ( example1, example2) is far more precise and informative. -- ELEKHH T 00:39, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
Comment I commented about the flag question on talk:Chicago, but now I see the main discussion is happening here. I agree with the general view above that it's better for the lists to not include flags. Would it be all right to start removing them from some of these articles? Zeromus1 ( talk) 19:13, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
Keep flags—As has been noted, it's not logically possible that the use of the flags violates any policy or guideline. WP:ICONDECORATION only discusses purely decorative icons. Thus it cannot be plausibly invoked as a reason to eliminate the flags unless supplemented with an argument that the use here is purely decorative. That section of the MOS says explicitly that Icons should serve a purpose other than solely decoration and gives as an example of this that icons may add additional information to the article subject nor navigational or layout cues that aid the reader. It seems to me that given that so many WikiProjects include these flags, the members of those projects agree that they're appropriate in this sense. I certainly do. More importantly, WP:WORDPRECEDENT tells us that In lists or tables, flag icons may be relevant when the nationality of different subjects is pertinent to the purpose of the list or table itself. I believe that that's the case here. Cities which have sister cities certainly think that the nationality of the cities are relevant. Further, I think it's worth noting that WP:INFOBOXFLAG, which is part of a policy that's broadly disapproving of flags in infoboxes in general, still recognizes that the use of flags, even in infoboxes, is appropriate for representing geographical entities: Human geographic articles - for example settlements and administrative subdivisions - may have flags of the country and first-level administrative subdivision in infoboxes. A fortiori, if they're acceptable in infoboxes to represent geographical locations, they're acceptable not in infoboxes for the same purpose and therefore the use of flag icons to represent sister cities can't violate either the spirit or the letter of the MOS. Finally, I think that given the exceedingly widespread use of flag icons in sister city lists it would be very contentious to come to any kind of conclusion without broad-based community input over a long period of time.— alf laylah wa laylah ( talk) 19:53, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
No reason to change prior consensus use Longtime usage and guideline have approved the use across articles for these lists. To me it is a style question (although that does not mean it's merely decoration). The flags are logically related to the words in the list and consensus has been amenable to their use. They do promote uniform article appearance (one way or the other). The "undue" arguments are simply unpersuasive in these often long articles. Would I personally be devastated, if they were style outlawed? No, but I would prefer not to see a wholesale "new style" debate across multiple projects and articles, and I would prefer some uniformity (at least in nation projects where such has been promoted). Alanscottwalker ( talk) 21:33, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
No reason to change prior consensus. The appearance of flags is completely in line with the spirit of international cooperation behind twinning and partnership arrangements. The idea that it harms wikipedia in any way at all is just plain silly. Please could John stop wasting other editors' time? Mathsci ( talk) 21:54, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
Query—Does anyone here still think that the MOS specifically prohibits the use of flagicons to represent sister cities as opposed to it just being a bad idea for some reason? If we can agree that the MOS does not prohibit it, we can probably end this conversation with a recommendation to those who want to dump the flags to go try to change the MOS. Thoughts?— alf laylah wa laylah ( talk) 03:25, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
San Francisco is a featured article. I personally would be loathe to mess with it myself, but anyone should try if they have the nerve!— alf laylah wa laylah ( talk) 14:43, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
Sister cities, twin towns and other international relations are all set up by local government authorities. The main sources for those arrangements are to be found on the official websites of those local authorities. That is true almost everywhere and certainly is true in France and the UK. It is hard to know where else to look for accurate and up-to-date information (for example Glasgow's twinning arrangement with Marseille started in 2006, from what I remember, so is unlikely to be reported in printed literature).
John has now challenged using official local government websites for sourcing information on these international relations. He has suggested that local government sources are primary and improper for sourcing information on twinning in the particular cases of Marseille and Aix-en-Provence. He has written that the twinning information should probably be removed from the articles unless alternative sourcing can be found.
Local government and government authorities are completely reliable for information of that kind, which is straightforward. My understanding is that similar types of sources are used for almost all articles on cities all over the world. There is no reason why local government information should be inaccurate on what are anodyne facts relayed to the general public for their information. Am I missing something here? Mathsci ( talk) 14:35, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
I can partially answer the question to John myself. On 25 August 2011, John edited several articles on cities in Scotland removing flag icons. These included Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Dumfries, Dundee, Inverness, Stirling and Perth. The edit summary for Glasgow read, "cleaned up disgusting flagcruff". [32] [33] [34] [35] [36] [37] [38] [39] [40] [41] [42] He has made similar deflagging edits to articles on cities in England in March 2012. This list is only a sample but contains most major cities. [43] [44] [45] [46] [47] [48] [49] [50] [51] [52] [53] [54] [55] [56] [57] [58] [59] [60] [61] [62] He also deflagged articles on cities in Wales and Ireland: this is just a sample. [63] [64] [65] [66] Mathsci ( talk) 00:36, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
!!
—
alf laylah wa laylah (
talk)
01:03, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
There is a Request for comment about the need/redundancy of Largest cities/city population templates. This is an open invitation for participating in the request for comment on Wikipedia:Requests for comment/City population templates. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. Mrt3366 (Talk?) (New thread?) 10:37, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
Bangkok has a "Current issues" section which discusses traffic, pollution, crime, etc. It isn't really well-written, but I was wondering whether or not the info in this section should be moved to other relevant sections, since I don't see it done this way in any other city articles. There doesn't seem to be a good section in which to put crime though. (I don't think it fits well under demographics as has been suggested.) -- Paul_012 ( talk) 16:28, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
This notice is to inform interested parties of a current discussion at Talk: Beverly Hills, California on renaming that article to "Beverly Hills". Gtwfan52 ( talk) 07:52, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
Would anyone like to start a portal on cities? The Arabic Wikipedia has ar:بوابة:مدن. Why not make Portal:Cities? WhisperToMe ( talk) 03:03, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
I've put some work into the Buford, Georgia article and I wanted to see if someone could assess it for B-class and explain what I'd need to do to get it there (and hopefully eventually GA status). I've never done a B-class assessment before and I think an uninvolved editor would be better suited than I would. - Sudo Ghost 04:08, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
I ask editors to participate in discussions on merger of Al-Kabri -> Kabri (Galilee) and on merger of al-Bassa -> Betzet (Galilee). The Al-Kabri and al-Bassa place names are essentially Arabic pronunciations for existing Kabri and Betzet (Hebrew/Canaanite pronunciations), and belong to still existent localities, with none or negligible changes in location. Currently, the Al-Kabri and al-Bassa articles claim to describe only the Palestinian Arab localities (Mandatory period), even though the villages still exist today within Israel and existed prior to the establishment of Mandatory Palestine (Ottoman and Mamluk periods and earlier). I hence proposed that those articles be merged into Kabri and Betzet accordingly. This merger is in accordance with similar cases of Amka, Ashdod and Caesarea, though in one case the merger was not agreed upon (case of Alma, Palestine and Alma, Israel). Greyshark09 ( talk) 21:54, 27 October 2012 (UTC)