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Archive 60 | ← | Archive 64 | Archive 65 | Archive 66 | Archive 67 | Archive 68 | → | Archive 70 |
Hi all. Do we have a guideline for creative works like paintings, sculptures, etc.? I am wondering if we consider in a museum notable or if they must show more significant coverage per WP:GNG. 4meter4 ( talk) 17:36, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
Let's start with asking, who's the artist? postdlf ( talk) 19:58, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
From WP:AUD: "The source's audience must also be considered. Evidence of significant coverage by international or national, or at least regional, media is a strong indication of notability. On the other hand, attention solely from local media, or media of limited interest and circulation, is not an indication of notability; at least one regional, statewide, provincial, national, or international source is necessary." I think this consideration is relevant to more than just organizations. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:31, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
I recently created this section which I am not done with. Apparently this character is "not notable" or "significant" enough for Wikipedia. So I am just wondering if the criteria of the character getting coverage can be a bit clearer. Jhenderson 777 20:34, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
There are quite a few software pages about software made by a small time developers. I came across this Wikipedia:Notability_(software) essay which looks much more lenient than the WP:GNG that is generally applicable and the more robust guidelines applicable to organizations/companies/products WP:NORG to minimize promotional pages. The software essay is only an essay. Are software articles expected to meet the GNG and product guidelines? Graywalls ( talk) 18:22, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
I found them added here [1] and they are used in a few other articles. I just removed it from Sovereign Capital which seems to have a couple of industry awards, possibly just promotional. Too many awards are either trivial or promotional, often given only in situations where the awardee has paid someone to take part. Doug Weller talk 15:53, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
Two English local politicians have recently been nominated for deletion -- Martin Hill (councillor) and Rob Parker (councillor). Before you switch off, I'm not asking for us to change WP:NPOL so that all councillors are inherently notable. I'm using them as examples to highlight what I feel is an arbitrary distinction being made with regard to sources and establishing notability. A number of those !voting to delete pointed out that Hill and Parker fail WP:NPOL, which is true. NPOL outlines which political offices we consider confer inherent notability on their holders, and we don't state that local politicians are among them. However, it is worth pointing out that that omission doesn't preclude other politicians from being notable, it just means that we have to assess notability on a "case by case basis", as WP:POLOUTCOMES says. I contended that Hill and Parker are notable because they meet WP:GNG: they have "received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Because the Parker AfD is ongoing, I will focus on Hill, whose article has now been deleted. I am not an administrator so I cannot show you what the article looked like before it was deleted; I have requeted that it be userfied by the deleting admit. But I have an earlier draft which, in the meantime, you can assess for yourselves. To summarise, there is coverage in the Local Government Chronicle (a national magazine) and less substantial coverage in the BBC and the Telegraph (also national outlets); he gave an interview with the Guardian, a national newspaper. But most of the coverage, predictably, was in local newspapers -- there was a lot, such that, on the face of it, I believed he would easily meet GNG.
But when these articles were taken to AfD, a number of !votes for delete argued that coverage in local news media does not count towards establishing notability -- no matter how significant, sustained, substantial, non-trivial and non-routine that coverage is. It was repeatedly asserted that this is "the consensus" even though I have never found or been pointed towards a policy, guideline or even an essay to that effect. The reasons for this seemingly arbitrary distinction between national and local media with regards to the GNG, it seems, are (1) that people just don't like the idea of including local politicians; and (2) that allowing local media to count towards meeting GNG would open the floodgates for thousands -- perhaps millions -- of badly formed, barely notable articles about the most minor local politicians and perhaps many other people or organisaitons; every local politician, it was argued, receives enough coverage in their local papers to meet GNG.
Now, (1) is of course not a valid reason to !vote for delete so, in good faith, I shall assume that no one voting there did so for that reason. (2) posits what appears to be a pragmatic corrective to the idealistic nature of GNG, which is the logical expression in policy form of Wikipedia's core mission to be a "sum of human knowledge". But is this unspoken rule something which has been adequately discussed? If so, why is not enshrined in policy? Regardess is it right to make the distinction between local and national media coverage? It strikes me as arbitrary and against the basic principles of what Wikipedia is about. It also seems founded in a fear -- as one person has repeatedly claimed in one of those AfD's -- "that significant, sustained, non-trivial and non-routine coverage in local news is, by definition, a thing that every single municipal and county councillor and school board trustee on earth always has and can always show." But I don't think this is true; in my country and, I am sure, in many parts of the world most local politicians don't receive much coverage other than in election time or in a PR capacity, but those are either routine or trivial and not useful for establishing notability. On the other hand, when someone (like Hill) is the subject of in-depth coverage on a monthly basis, and sets the billion-pound budget and strategies for an authority which serves 1 million people, it seems arbitrary to automatically exclude local media sources in notability discussions, regardless of the depth of coverage. Regardless, even if people do receive sustained coverage in their local media, I don't see why that's an issue. Sure, it will introduce problems; but by that logic, we might as well just have no articles at all, and then all our content-related problems will disappear. We're not working towards a deadline; the project will never be complete; and, above all, we should be aiming to summarise human knowledge, not exclude it based on some fear that we will have too much content.
But even if you don't agree with my last point, for those pragmatists out there I have another question: what do we do when we are faced with articles, like Hill's and Parker's, which are not trash; which are well-sourced, neutral, balanced, and, above, extremely useful for anyone interested in their careers and work (i.e. potentially anyone of those million people they have served). If the issue at stake here comes down to drawing a line so that we can keep out the trash, then why are we allowing article's like Hill's to be deleted when they're not trash? I'm making a case at Parker's AfD that we should invoke WP:IAR, which says that "If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it." At the end of the day, Parker's article is (and Hill's article was) clearly an improvement to the project; there is no harm in it being here; it's useful and well put together. Removing it does far more harm to our readership and our mission than letting it stay. Surely, even those approaching the issue pragmatically can agree with that? And yet we're voting to delete them, which seems hypocritical for people arguing from a pragmatic point of view; it actually seems needlessly dogmatic, rather like they just don't like them after all. Apologies for the length of this post, but I think it is worth it in capturing the nuances of what is often seen as a straight-forward issue. -- Noswall59 ( talk) 12:35, 8 December 2019 (UTC).
I've seen on the Italian Wikipedia that all the characters of almost every TV show (that I've heard of) - and in particular Japanese anime series - seem to have pages of their own, even if they're not notable enough for one on the English Wikipedia. I've seen on the main page an article for an anime character, and I've seen articles on minor characters of western TV shows that don't even have sources and are nothing more than stubs. Even all (including the minor) of the characters of Crayon Shin-chan had articles before a sock IP redirected them (despite having his edits undone first but following a discussion were reverted back to redirects). Even most of them just have Italian as the sole language! As per WP:OTHERLANGUAGEEXISTS; just because another language Wikipedia project has an article on a subject isn't a reason for that subject to have an article, especially if that subject isn't notable. However, the Italian Wikipedia (and likely all Wikipedias) have the same general notability policies as the English Wikipedia ( WP:GNG). 103.38.21.38 ( talk) 05:35, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
The discussion about notability doesn't mention chemistry at all. It seems that elements are notable. Is there any guideline on how notable a chemical should be to have an article? Say, for example, that it was a very important part of a large consumer product industry? Gah4 ( talk) 11:36, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
Hey all,
while doing some unrelated cleanup work I came across the article Guru Narasimha, whose notability I can't really judge. It looks at first glance like a badly sourced puff piece overflowing with trivia, but I'm not game to definitively judge it. Is there a relevant guideline or precedent covering village deities and/or local religious customs? Also pinging @ Sitush:. who is full of knowledge and good judgment on India matters. Cheers, Reyk YO! 07:09, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
This is coming from a discussion currently at WP:RS/N related to the possible notability of restaurants with at least one Michelin star. There's general consensus there that this is a reasonable presumption of notability, given the infrequently awarding of Michelin stars, but there is concern that, as NSPORT had allowed years before, the creation of one-two sentence articles that just establish the sourcing to demonstrate the SNG notability, but nothing else, and in the case of the NSPORT ones, stubs that persist today that are nearly difficult to put to AFD because
We already make clear that there is no requirement that a topic that meets the GNG or SNG need a standalone article; meeting the GNG or SNG only creates the reasonable presumption of notability so that we would allow a standalone article to be created for expansion later.
However, I think we want to add additional language to WP:N in general that, even if a topic does meet presumption of notability for a standalone, we expect that standalone to have more fleshed out in it than just a sentence or two affirming the presumed notability criteria. That is, we do not want people creating articles that simply say "Joe's Fancy Diner is a restaurant in Queens, NYC. It earned a Michelin star." and that's it. Expansion of content here can come from primary sources, non-independent sources, or other things that do not meet the type of sourcing expected for GNG, but otherwise provide more context and details though avoiding excessive promotional details. If, from my example above, the article can be expanded with an additional paragraph based on a very local entertainment scene magazine (one that would otherwise fail WP:AUD for WP:NORG) to add to what I already gave, "Joe's was started by Chef Joe Smith, who had studied under Famous Chef with a specialty in French cuisine. He opened Joe's in 1989 in the heart of Queens hoping to attract a variety of customers there." etc. then this is TONS better than just the stubby 2 sentence version.
So basically, we want to encourage editors to not create articles just after finding they meet the GNG or SNG criteria, but armed at least with sufficient material to give something weighter than a few sentences. We can't force editors to created more expanded pages without a significant broader change across WP (we'd need New Page Patrol on board, possibly a new CSD, etc.) But we can certain advise against creating such short articles. We definitely want to say that editors should not use mass-creation tools (automatic or semi or otherwise) to make pages just because they meet the GNG/SNG. (Eg someone could make articles on every restaurant in the Michelin guide with a star, we don't want to encourage that at all)
Also, I would stress we're looking at the state after some period of work. If I created a two-sentence stub with no details but then came back to it 24hr later to expand to this better state, that's fine; we don't want people jumping to delete the stub state 5 minutes after it was created. -- Masem ( t) 16:55, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
Could those arguing in favor of additional guidance in the notability guideline, please state their belief why the content already present in sections #General notability guideline and #Whether to create standalone pages is insufficient to handle stubby Michelin-awarded restaurant articles already? The way it looks to me currently, the needed recommendations are already there, they only need to be cited, and applied. Am I missing something? Mathglot ( talk) 22:57, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
Should Category:Lists of fictional animals by type and all the member lists be deleted? See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of fictional badgers. Andy Dingley ( talk) 13:09, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
Is there a guideline for notability of fictional whatevers? If not, should we try to make one? Consider articles like
I was about to start writing an article on a new bill in the US senate that's drawn attention, but as I started thinking about it, realized its probably too soon - in that while the draft language has made some free speech groups in a panic (that is, I can clearly pass GNG with sourcing for it), there's no indication yet how far the bill will get. I've been able to write about the bill elsewhere, but in piecing this thought pattern together, realized there may be something we could add to here under the advice of when to create a new standalone page, and that's related to ideas like RECENTISM. (It is not quite WP:NEVENTs realm).
For comparison, the WP:FILM project has a rather good piece of advice for any new film: unless there's really good sourcing available to back it up a long complex development history ( Akira (planned film)), one should not create the article on the film until production has been confirmed to have been started. You may have lots of cast and crew news before production, but because in modern film production these can go south in an instant, the WP:FILM project has felt it better to wait for production to have started - not quite a point of no return - before the article can be created. Details prior to production can go to articles otherwise where possible.
So I'm wondering about a fourth bullet in the NOPAGE section, something that when the topic reflects some type of process - the making of a film, the passage of a bill, etc. - that one should make sure the process goes along along far enough to a point where more than likely the process will go through to completion before making a standalone article on the topic. In that it is generally inappropriate to jump the gun to make articles when companies announced plans to make something without demonstrating any progress on that something (this is very common in the video game arena too). This doesn't mean these announcements and projects can't be mentioned elsewhere, redirects made for searching, and all other factors, but just to help editors to consider waiting until there is some assured nature a project would go forward before making a standalone about it, even though it is often easy to meet the GNG at the point of these announcements.
I don't know what language I'd use yet, but I wanted to see if this made send to include first. -- Masem ( t) 15:40, 6 March 2020 (UTC)
I see on the Help Desk and the Teahouse that people given advice are often told something that I interpret as meaning that if they only provide general information about the company, that is promotion.
I come to Wikipedia for general information about companies. People are advised to use their web site for this information but what many companies do on their own web sites is promotional gibberish that has nothing to do with what I am looking for.
Sometimes (but not lately) I create articles about the companies I am looking for after I have to go in search of the real information. I may not be in agreement with the community on what makes a company notable but if I want to research the company and not have to go all over the place to do it, it seems notable enough to me.
I don't know if this is in the wrong place, but I just had to say it.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 18:50, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
Hello! Can anyone help me out: When a subtopic of an article has to be split off due to article size, are there any guidelines what the spinout article should to conform to with regard to notability? Thank you very much! Daranios ( talk) 21:48, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 60 | ← | Archive 64 | Archive 65 | Archive 66 | Archive 67 | Archive 68 | → | Archive 70 |
Hi all. Do we have a guideline for creative works like paintings, sculptures, etc.? I am wondering if we consider in a museum notable or if they must show more significant coverage per WP:GNG. 4meter4 ( talk) 17:36, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
Let's start with asking, who's the artist? postdlf ( talk) 19:58, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
From WP:AUD: "The source's audience must also be considered. Evidence of significant coverage by international or national, or at least regional, media is a strong indication of notability. On the other hand, attention solely from local media, or media of limited interest and circulation, is not an indication of notability; at least one regional, statewide, provincial, national, or international source is necessary." I think this consideration is relevant to more than just organizations. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:31, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
I recently created this section which I am not done with. Apparently this character is "not notable" or "significant" enough for Wikipedia. So I am just wondering if the criteria of the character getting coverage can be a bit clearer. Jhenderson 777 20:34, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
There are quite a few software pages about software made by a small time developers. I came across this Wikipedia:Notability_(software) essay which looks much more lenient than the WP:GNG that is generally applicable and the more robust guidelines applicable to organizations/companies/products WP:NORG to minimize promotional pages. The software essay is only an essay. Are software articles expected to meet the GNG and product guidelines? Graywalls ( talk) 18:22, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
I found them added here [1] and they are used in a few other articles. I just removed it from Sovereign Capital which seems to have a couple of industry awards, possibly just promotional. Too many awards are either trivial or promotional, often given only in situations where the awardee has paid someone to take part. Doug Weller talk 15:53, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
Two English local politicians have recently been nominated for deletion -- Martin Hill (councillor) and Rob Parker (councillor). Before you switch off, I'm not asking for us to change WP:NPOL so that all councillors are inherently notable. I'm using them as examples to highlight what I feel is an arbitrary distinction being made with regard to sources and establishing notability. A number of those !voting to delete pointed out that Hill and Parker fail WP:NPOL, which is true. NPOL outlines which political offices we consider confer inherent notability on their holders, and we don't state that local politicians are among them. However, it is worth pointing out that that omission doesn't preclude other politicians from being notable, it just means that we have to assess notability on a "case by case basis", as WP:POLOUTCOMES says. I contended that Hill and Parker are notable because they meet WP:GNG: they have "received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Because the Parker AfD is ongoing, I will focus on Hill, whose article has now been deleted. I am not an administrator so I cannot show you what the article looked like before it was deleted; I have requeted that it be userfied by the deleting admit. But I have an earlier draft which, in the meantime, you can assess for yourselves. To summarise, there is coverage in the Local Government Chronicle (a national magazine) and less substantial coverage in the BBC and the Telegraph (also national outlets); he gave an interview with the Guardian, a national newspaper. But most of the coverage, predictably, was in local newspapers -- there was a lot, such that, on the face of it, I believed he would easily meet GNG.
But when these articles were taken to AfD, a number of !votes for delete argued that coverage in local news media does not count towards establishing notability -- no matter how significant, sustained, substantial, non-trivial and non-routine that coverage is. It was repeatedly asserted that this is "the consensus" even though I have never found or been pointed towards a policy, guideline or even an essay to that effect. The reasons for this seemingly arbitrary distinction between national and local media with regards to the GNG, it seems, are (1) that people just don't like the idea of including local politicians; and (2) that allowing local media to count towards meeting GNG would open the floodgates for thousands -- perhaps millions -- of badly formed, barely notable articles about the most minor local politicians and perhaps many other people or organisaitons; every local politician, it was argued, receives enough coverage in their local papers to meet GNG.
Now, (1) is of course not a valid reason to !vote for delete so, in good faith, I shall assume that no one voting there did so for that reason. (2) posits what appears to be a pragmatic corrective to the idealistic nature of GNG, which is the logical expression in policy form of Wikipedia's core mission to be a "sum of human knowledge". But is this unspoken rule something which has been adequately discussed? If so, why is not enshrined in policy? Regardess is it right to make the distinction between local and national media coverage? It strikes me as arbitrary and against the basic principles of what Wikipedia is about. It also seems founded in a fear -- as one person has repeatedly claimed in one of those AfD's -- "that significant, sustained, non-trivial and non-routine coverage in local news is, by definition, a thing that every single municipal and county councillor and school board trustee on earth always has and can always show." But I don't think this is true; in my country and, I am sure, in many parts of the world most local politicians don't receive much coverage other than in election time or in a PR capacity, but those are either routine or trivial and not useful for establishing notability. On the other hand, when someone (like Hill) is the subject of in-depth coverage on a monthly basis, and sets the billion-pound budget and strategies for an authority which serves 1 million people, it seems arbitrary to automatically exclude local media sources in notability discussions, regardless of the depth of coverage. Regardless, even if people do receive sustained coverage in their local media, I don't see why that's an issue. Sure, it will introduce problems; but by that logic, we might as well just have no articles at all, and then all our content-related problems will disappear. We're not working towards a deadline; the project will never be complete; and, above all, we should be aiming to summarise human knowledge, not exclude it based on some fear that we will have too much content.
But even if you don't agree with my last point, for those pragmatists out there I have another question: what do we do when we are faced with articles, like Hill's and Parker's, which are not trash; which are well-sourced, neutral, balanced, and, above, extremely useful for anyone interested in their careers and work (i.e. potentially anyone of those million people they have served). If the issue at stake here comes down to drawing a line so that we can keep out the trash, then why are we allowing article's like Hill's to be deleted when they're not trash? I'm making a case at Parker's AfD that we should invoke WP:IAR, which says that "If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it." At the end of the day, Parker's article is (and Hill's article was) clearly an improvement to the project; there is no harm in it being here; it's useful and well put together. Removing it does far more harm to our readership and our mission than letting it stay. Surely, even those approaching the issue pragmatically can agree with that? And yet we're voting to delete them, which seems hypocritical for people arguing from a pragmatic point of view; it actually seems needlessly dogmatic, rather like they just don't like them after all. Apologies for the length of this post, but I think it is worth it in capturing the nuances of what is often seen as a straight-forward issue. -- Noswall59 ( talk) 12:35, 8 December 2019 (UTC).
I've seen on the Italian Wikipedia that all the characters of almost every TV show (that I've heard of) - and in particular Japanese anime series - seem to have pages of their own, even if they're not notable enough for one on the English Wikipedia. I've seen on the main page an article for an anime character, and I've seen articles on minor characters of western TV shows that don't even have sources and are nothing more than stubs. Even all (including the minor) of the characters of Crayon Shin-chan had articles before a sock IP redirected them (despite having his edits undone first but following a discussion were reverted back to redirects). Even most of them just have Italian as the sole language! As per WP:OTHERLANGUAGEEXISTS; just because another language Wikipedia project has an article on a subject isn't a reason for that subject to have an article, especially if that subject isn't notable. However, the Italian Wikipedia (and likely all Wikipedias) have the same general notability policies as the English Wikipedia ( WP:GNG). 103.38.21.38 ( talk) 05:35, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
The discussion about notability doesn't mention chemistry at all. It seems that elements are notable. Is there any guideline on how notable a chemical should be to have an article? Say, for example, that it was a very important part of a large consumer product industry? Gah4 ( talk) 11:36, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
Hey all,
while doing some unrelated cleanup work I came across the article Guru Narasimha, whose notability I can't really judge. It looks at first glance like a badly sourced puff piece overflowing with trivia, but I'm not game to definitively judge it. Is there a relevant guideline or precedent covering village deities and/or local religious customs? Also pinging @ Sitush:. who is full of knowledge and good judgment on India matters. Cheers, Reyk YO! 07:09, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
This is coming from a discussion currently at WP:RS/N related to the possible notability of restaurants with at least one Michelin star. There's general consensus there that this is a reasonable presumption of notability, given the infrequently awarding of Michelin stars, but there is concern that, as NSPORT had allowed years before, the creation of one-two sentence articles that just establish the sourcing to demonstrate the SNG notability, but nothing else, and in the case of the NSPORT ones, stubs that persist today that are nearly difficult to put to AFD because
We already make clear that there is no requirement that a topic that meets the GNG or SNG need a standalone article; meeting the GNG or SNG only creates the reasonable presumption of notability so that we would allow a standalone article to be created for expansion later.
However, I think we want to add additional language to WP:N in general that, even if a topic does meet presumption of notability for a standalone, we expect that standalone to have more fleshed out in it than just a sentence or two affirming the presumed notability criteria. That is, we do not want people creating articles that simply say "Joe's Fancy Diner is a restaurant in Queens, NYC. It earned a Michelin star." and that's it. Expansion of content here can come from primary sources, non-independent sources, or other things that do not meet the type of sourcing expected for GNG, but otherwise provide more context and details though avoiding excessive promotional details. If, from my example above, the article can be expanded with an additional paragraph based on a very local entertainment scene magazine (one that would otherwise fail WP:AUD for WP:NORG) to add to what I already gave, "Joe's was started by Chef Joe Smith, who had studied under Famous Chef with a specialty in French cuisine. He opened Joe's in 1989 in the heart of Queens hoping to attract a variety of customers there." etc. then this is TONS better than just the stubby 2 sentence version.
So basically, we want to encourage editors to not create articles just after finding they meet the GNG or SNG criteria, but armed at least with sufficient material to give something weighter than a few sentences. We can't force editors to created more expanded pages without a significant broader change across WP (we'd need New Page Patrol on board, possibly a new CSD, etc.) But we can certain advise against creating such short articles. We definitely want to say that editors should not use mass-creation tools (automatic or semi or otherwise) to make pages just because they meet the GNG/SNG. (Eg someone could make articles on every restaurant in the Michelin guide with a star, we don't want to encourage that at all)
Also, I would stress we're looking at the state after some period of work. If I created a two-sentence stub with no details but then came back to it 24hr later to expand to this better state, that's fine; we don't want people jumping to delete the stub state 5 minutes after it was created. -- Masem ( t) 16:55, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
Could those arguing in favor of additional guidance in the notability guideline, please state their belief why the content already present in sections #General notability guideline and #Whether to create standalone pages is insufficient to handle stubby Michelin-awarded restaurant articles already? The way it looks to me currently, the needed recommendations are already there, they only need to be cited, and applied. Am I missing something? Mathglot ( talk) 22:57, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
Should Category:Lists of fictional animals by type and all the member lists be deleted? See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of fictional badgers. Andy Dingley ( talk) 13:09, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
Is there a guideline for notability of fictional whatevers? If not, should we try to make one? Consider articles like
I was about to start writing an article on a new bill in the US senate that's drawn attention, but as I started thinking about it, realized its probably too soon - in that while the draft language has made some free speech groups in a panic (that is, I can clearly pass GNG with sourcing for it), there's no indication yet how far the bill will get. I've been able to write about the bill elsewhere, but in piecing this thought pattern together, realized there may be something we could add to here under the advice of when to create a new standalone page, and that's related to ideas like RECENTISM. (It is not quite WP:NEVENTs realm).
For comparison, the WP:FILM project has a rather good piece of advice for any new film: unless there's really good sourcing available to back it up a long complex development history ( Akira (planned film)), one should not create the article on the film until production has been confirmed to have been started. You may have lots of cast and crew news before production, but because in modern film production these can go south in an instant, the WP:FILM project has felt it better to wait for production to have started - not quite a point of no return - before the article can be created. Details prior to production can go to articles otherwise where possible.
So I'm wondering about a fourth bullet in the NOPAGE section, something that when the topic reflects some type of process - the making of a film, the passage of a bill, etc. - that one should make sure the process goes along along far enough to a point where more than likely the process will go through to completion before making a standalone article on the topic. In that it is generally inappropriate to jump the gun to make articles when companies announced plans to make something without demonstrating any progress on that something (this is very common in the video game arena too). This doesn't mean these announcements and projects can't be mentioned elsewhere, redirects made for searching, and all other factors, but just to help editors to consider waiting until there is some assured nature a project would go forward before making a standalone about it, even though it is often easy to meet the GNG at the point of these announcements.
I don't know what language I'd use yet, but I wanted to see if this made send to include first. -- Masem ( t) 15:40, 6 March 2020 (UTC)
I see on the Help Desk and the Teahouse that people given advice are often told something that I interpret as meaning that if they only provide general information about the company, that is promotion.
I come to Wikipedia for general information about companies. People are advised to use their web site for this information but what many companies do on their own web sites is promotional gibberish that has nothing to do with what I am looking for.
Sometimes (but not lately) I create articles about the companies I am looking for after I have to go in search of the real information. I may not be in agreement with the community on what makes a company notable but if I want to research the company and not have to go all over the place to do it, it seems notable enough to me.
I don't know if this is in the wrong place, but I just had to say it.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 18:50, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
Hello! Can anyone help me out: When a subtopic of an article has to be split off due to article size, are there any guidelines what the spinout article should to conform to with regard to notability? Thank you very much! Daranios ( talk) 21:48, 11 March 2020 (UTC)