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I got the NPP Newsletter. I see the backlog is huge again. I'll start working on in the next couple of days, try and do a coupla thousand before the end of the month. scope_creep Talk 12:27, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
Seems like a common use case that fills up the back of the queue. We'll have a patrolled redirect get turned into an article, then reverted. Would there be support for patrolling these automatically with a bot? I can put a WP:BOTREQ in if there's consensus. cc User:DannyS712 – Novem Linguae ( talk) 21:28, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
So the simpler version of this task would be just to extend my existing redirect autopatrolling to including redirects that are not the only revision (which I think is currently a requirement).Are there more details to that? If we simply patrol all redirects originating from an unpatrolled article, I think that could be problematic. Your bulleted list above is good, I think that workflow is correct and is in sync with what I was suggesting. To simplify the coding/speed up the bot, could change
and a previous version of the article was a redirect to the same targetto
and the 2nd to last version of the article was a redirect to the same target, or put a limit of 10 revisions deep or something. – Novem Linguae ( talk) 00:15, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
Completely off topic: Does article -> redirect not unreview? That seems like an easy way for someone to go ahead and soft delete a page. I personally have been checking histories as I review redirects. I remember recent(not so recent?) conversations onwiki about limits on draftifying because the community was concerned about NPPers doing unilateral deletions by way of G13. And be honest, when's the last time you've looked at page history for a redirect, cause I don't unless I'm patrolling? Happy Editing-- IAm Chaos 00:24, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
Earlier today I blocked new page patroller Hatchens for undisclosed paid editing. Specifically, he seems to have been accepting drafts written by other UPErs and as he also had autopatrolled I think these will have skipped the NPP queue too. More details at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#User:Hatchens. – Joe ( talk) 15:16, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
North8000 did a great job in the above thread that could be yet another attempt at NPP reform. I'd like to get a parallel conversation started about sharing tips. Discounting proposals to change how NPP works, do you have any practical tips to share with other reviewers about how to improve the work as defined today? MarioGom ( talk) 16:04, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
Here is a classic example of articles that were redirects and end-up in the NPP queue because one editor believes it shouldn't be redirected and others believe it should. So what is the best remedy for keeping these situations out of the queue without getting into an edit war, a t-ban, and whatever else tends to arise from such disagreements? Atsme 💬 📧 16:19, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
Since we lost the diligent One the backlog has been spiralling out of control. One option is running another backlog drive; I believe we achieved at least moderate increase in reviewing with the last one. ( t · c) buidhe 23:16, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
it's the worst it's been since 2018
- What a coincidence! It's time to prune the deadwood out of that ridiculous list of 0ver 700 reviewers. Now where are the coords?
Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (
talk)
23:36, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
I have some ideas that I'm trying to tidy up to present. North8000 ( talk) 01:56, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
The admins have sympathy for us (except Rosguill who is one of us) and are approving requests much much quicker, and I got about 50 pages done this morning so if every reviewer did something like that, that’s part of the backlog gone, but we are keeping up with the new pages as they come in. So those are some positives, negatives are that we probably will have some more UPE’s bubbling up if the admins are reviewing requests faster, | Zippybonzo | Talk | 19:55, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
I've been noodling on this for about a year and here's what I came up with.North8000 ( talk) 14:29, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
The backlog of unreviewed pages is an ongoing unresolved problem which is getting worse. As of this writing it is 15,000 and rapidly growing. This is the result of hundreds of factors, some good, some bad. Any useful analysis requires identifying core solvable problems or good changes which will help improve the situation. I'll discount some other areas discussed as too small to help (e.g. autpopatrol and bot-change related) and focus on the core need and goal which is the amount of throughput of by-human NPP patrol reviews. For shorthand/terminology and ballpark I'm also going to use "30 reviewers" for shorthand because currently this is the number of reviewers averaging 2 review completions per day or more, and under best case scenarios, the number we might have reviewing big enough numbers to solve the issues. And I'll use "1 million" for the number of editors, knowing that it can be considered to be more or less than that depending on the criteria used.
It appears that a throughput of about 1,500 by-human review completions per day is needed. Since maybe a third are just tagged for later re-review, this means about 2,200 reviews a day including those. Attempted reviews where the NPP'er ended up just leaving it it for an expert would raise that number further.
The gorilla in the math living room that affects everything else is that under the best case scenario we have millions of article creators and 30 people doing NPP on what they create.
Analyzing one level down on the throughput side, throughput is the number of active reviewers and the rate of reviews that they can and do accomplish. And one level below that the factors are influx of reviewers that are really going to review, having them get better at it, having them spend more time reviewing, making it easier to accomplish reviews, and retaining them as active reviewers. And of course, making the process less difficult and more pleasant is key to many of these.
Even to get to moderate proficiency requires a wiki-knowledge level which is higher than that of an average admin. For example, to be able to review even 1/2 of the articles that need review requires extensive knowledge of all of the notability guidelines, wp:not, wp:common outcomes and some knowledge of of the undocumented fuzzy wp:notability ecosystems works. To get that to 95% requires far more than that, with medium knowledge of most of the fields covered by the SNG (e.g. to know the sports terminology and structure to interpret the SNG), fluency with a wide range of tools (source-searching, copyvio and translation tools) 4-5 other major guidelines and policies and fluency in searching sources in non-english countries.
If one listens to everybody who comments or complains on what seems to be implied, the expectations of what could be covered in a NPP review are gigantic. The list of all of the tags to apply implies catching every possible problem or weakness in an article. The NPP flowchart is not really as demanding as it appears at first glance, but does included copyvio searches and analysis of the results.
NPP'er satisfaction with and enjoyment of the work is essential to recruiting reviewers, having them do more, and staying around. Even if they ignore the complainers, the unwritten expectations inflicted by NPP itself are so high that nearly everybody is going to think "I'm doing a bad job". And, to add to that it is a painful job once one sees comments and happenings at articles that they AFD and similar places.
Of all of the zillions of possible tasks for NPP, 95% could be called article development including identifying and fixing problems. Mathematically the 95% needs to be handled by the millions of editors, not the 30 NPP'ers. The other 5% that can really only be done by NPP is acting as the gatekeepers on "is it OK for this article to exist?" questions.
WP:Before regarding sourcing inflicts a mathematical impossibility on NPP. For an extreme example to illustrate,in 10 minutes, each of the million editors could create 10 sourceless articles on non-notable people in non-english-speaking countries. Each will require about a 1/2 hour by an NPP'er to comply with wp:before before sending it to AFD. So those 10 million articles will require 5,000,000 person hours by the 30 NPP'ers to send them to AFD. If they each average 5 wikihours a week to work on NPP, WP:Before makes it so that it would take the NPP'ers 641 years to "properly" review what the million editors can create in 10 minutes. Mathematically, the only solution to this doubly lopsided situation is that including needed wp:notability-related sources (thus confirming that they exist) needs to be the job of the 1,000,00 editors, not the 30 reviewers.
I'd been willing to be some type of an assistant co-ordinator here to work on such things. I'd navigate a discussion to decide on what to do and then to try to help implement.North8000 ( talk) 14:29, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
moderate proficiency requires a wiki-knowledge level which is higher than that of an average admin. For example, to be able to review even 1/2 of the articles that need review requires extensive knowledge of all of the notability guidelines. IIRC I can't pull {{ tq}}'s off of discord without incurring the wrath of certain people, but we were just talking about sorting out who likes certain categories, and maybe targeting Wikiprojects for NPPSORT pages that have particular backlogs and ask the reviewers who watch that page who are more familiar with the subjects RS/NGs to try and get them down. Of course there is discussion above on this page about a full on drive, whoch could (should) help as well. Happy Editing-- IAm Chaos 15:34, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
MarioGom ( talk) 15:46, 23 May 2022 (UTC)Throwing here a half-assed idea before going to WT:NPP/R with it:
I'm thinking about some sort of active NPP census, where we share with each other what kind of reviewing we are doing or intend to do.
The structure I was thinking is a list of: all WP:NPPSORT categories + Redirects + Back of the queue + Front of the queue.
Each of us would add our username to the categories we do or intend to do.
This could be useful to drive a recruiting effort (e.g. oh, we have no one really interested in patrolling articles about X region?), maybe also the seed for some other coordination actions (e.g. topic-based drives), discover peers to ask for a second opinion about an article in the same topic of interest, etc.
What do you think?
My "needs 30 minutes" example was admittedly an extreme case to make the "asymmetrical effort" point. Not a statement that I'd spend 30 minutes on it. But to back that up, let's say that somebody puts up an article on a sports figure in a non-english-speaking country (maybe one that doesn't even use the same alphabet characters) in a language that you do not know. How long would it take you to research well enough to say sources don't exist to the point that somebody at AFD won't be finding something and saying that you screwed up? North8000 ( talk) 16:50, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
I've created User:Novem Linguae/Essays/NPP reform notes. This is my attempt to document every NPP reform idea I see. I've grouped the ideas into 5 or so subheadings. Feel free to add to it. – Novem Linguae ( talk) 12:01, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
The July Drive sign-up is currently open, the drive starts on July 1st and ends on July 31st: Sign up here. | Zippybonzo | Talk | 06:36, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
I've come across quite a few articles that are marked as potential copyvio that have been corrected, but the Curation tool still shows them as having a copyvio. Example: Puss in Boots: The Last Wish. Can this anomaly be fixed or must we live with it? DannyS712 are you familiar with the code's instructions and if it can be modified? Atsme 💬 📧 15:58, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
I'm placing this notice here for active reviewers to consider regarding a few proposed additions at Wikipedia talk:Notability (sports)#Expanding Notability for Equestrians. Your input is requested. Atsme 💬 📧 22:00, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
I know that we unbundled autopatrol from the admin toolkit, but many admins create user pages as they tag sock puppets, write essays or user scripts, etc. Would it go against that unbundling RFC to have a bot automatically mark pages created by admins in the user namespace as patrolled? DannyS712 ( talk) 21:45, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
(Moved from another talk page to here for further input) RV University was moved to draft by a previous reviewer. The article has been re-created in Main space and is identical to the draft. Do I move to Draft:RV University-2 or use G6? Just questioning since G6 is not part of NPP script options. Slywriter ( talk) 14:56, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
I hist-merged the draft which is the standard solution for cut-paste moves. Wikipedia:Requests for history merge. – wbm1058 ( talk) 12:52, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
Are we supposed to be upholding the medical project's reliable sources for medical articles in biographical articles? I know it's best practice but I used to review these in DYK and, in my experience, they hardly ever comply. Espresso Addict ( talk) 02:42, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
IP Masking: After gathering final feedback, the WMF will soon be permanently rolling out its IP masking feature. On May 24, 2022 the IP Info feature has been deployed to all wikis as a Beta Feature. This will be of interest for New Page and AfC Reviewers and anyone else concerned with vandalism, COI, UPE, etc. Many of the reasons to view IP addresses will no longer be available to everyone or indeed to other special rights users (admins, recent changes/vandalism patrollers, AfC, NPP, SPI, COI, UPE, etc.) who are not CU functionaries. On En-Wiki, access and use of the CU tool is highly restricted, regulated, and limited in scope. On IP masking:
We currently have an access restriction in place which was informed by our conversations with Legal and Trust & Safety. In general, our goal was to ensure that we do not risk the privacy of an editor by exposing (potentially) sensitive information to users who a) may not need to see it anyway and b) may not be trusted with that information. – WMF
Individual Wikiedias will apparently not be able to opt out of IP Masking which is to be imposed on all WMF projects on a decision of the WMF legal division.
Some questions that are still open regarding this new feature and its tool include:
See description and its discussion. See also further information and discussion for Beta testers on the Test Wiki, and those who would also like to test it and see what it does. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 23:43, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
We are suggesting that admins should have the right to view IP addresses (alongside checkusers) by default as we know it is essential many times for admins to view IP addresses and block them, as appropriate. For patrollers, we suggest a new group/right that can be given to trusted patrollers, as defined by the community norms. We are suggesting a lightweight community-driven process for giving these rights to users who meet some minimum criteria of account tenure and number of edits. Advanced users in the community could also have the right to take away this privilege from anyone they think may be misusing their access to IPs. In addition, WMF T&S staff would also be responsible for handling cases of violation. – WMF
Please note that this is all advance information only. It's not a call to rush off and start a half-baked RfC anywhere on anything. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 01:34, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
Currently 791 users are trying this feature. It can be turned on in your Preferences > Beta features. Testing it does not mean Beta testers will be authorised to use it once the IP Masking has been rolled out. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 05:10, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
The latest chart shows a sudden and significant reversal. This is getting me more motivated now that it doesn't appear to be hopeless. In lieu of any formal backlog reduction drive, how about just a simple monthly goal. I propose 14,000 by the end of the month. I think that should be easy to hit. Since there are no coordinators to discuss this with first, I boldly added a header with this goal. I hope no one objects. MB 04:51, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
they just invite more speed and less qualityMy experience with a similar backlog drive (the AFC backlog drive we did last year, which was really successful and cleared a 4,000 article backlog) was that the quality of the reviews was fine. We confirmed this with a re-review requirement. In my opinion, the biggest problem with that particular backlog drive was that it burned out all the top AFC reviewers for several months, which allowed the backlog to return. – Novem Linguae ( talk) 11:39, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
Furthermore, having tags does not mean the article has been "processed" by NPP. The tags could have been added by anyone, and they can be removed by anyone at any time (including by the author) without fixing the problems. The article needs to stay in the queue until someone does more than tag it (CSD/AFD/Draftify/etc/ or approve). MB 04:28, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
"Sow's Ear Into Silk Purse Machine of those heady early days". Back when this encyclopedia was building entries covering the last couple millennia of history there were entries of merit to develop. Now we have all the articles we need and we're inundated with everything else we don't want or need, given to us by the least talented and most conflicted. Chris Troutman ( talk) 00:41, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
Written four years ago:
Although AfC is not the Article Rescue Squadron, many draft creators (and confirmed editors too), especially single-purpose accounts, submit their creation in Wikipedia expecting other editors to complete it or clean it up. They need to be informed up front that not only are notability and sources required, but that the article must also be appropriate for an encyclopedia, and that clean-up attempts by reviewers might not be the best deployment of their enthusiasm to rescue certain kinds of articles.–The Signpost June 2018
Dialogue with the creator is an intrinsic part of the AfC template system, and used well, more effective than Page Curation's message feature. Unlike New Page Review, whose principal task as a triage is to either tag articles for deletion or pass them for inclusion with perhaps some minor details needing to be addressed, at AfC the skill is in being able to sensibly recognise whether or not a new article has true validity and potential for the encyclopedia and offer some basic advice – the rest is about not being scared to keep or delete.
Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 04:59, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 172#Proposal to ban draftifying articles more than 90 days old without consensus. Just wondering if we should look into appealing this at WP:AN. I am having trouble reading the consensus of this discussion as a consensus to ban draftifying articles more than 90 days old. By my count, there was 45 support, 46 oppose. Hard to imagine the support arguments were so convincing that it overrides the opposes. For example, during the discussion I did a spot check of draftifications at the back of the AFC queue and didn't find any egregious errors. You can search for "Chess, thanks for your comment. I spot checked the first 5. Draft:Dean Shomshak" to see my analysis. Overall I find the hard evidence and diffs of draftification misconduct to be quite lacking, and not enough to override the opposes. – Novem Linguae ( talk) 04:05, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
As mentioned above, I am the principal person screening forthcoming afcs; this is putting an excessive burden on one particular individual. No WP process should depend largely on a single person. I have successively reduced the fields I look at, and I have been forced by the pressures of real life to skip over occasional days altogether. This sort of burden and time pressure is unreasonable for a volunteer. Even trying to keep up greatly reduces my participation in other processes, and my ability to improve or rewrite or translate existing articles, or to do what I really want, which is to help editors develop their skills on an individual basis. This is making my experience at WP increasingly unsatisfactory, and the last few months of statistics at XTools shows the decline in my participation. I shall try to help the forthcoming drive to reduce backlogs as efficiently as I can because I know I can do it efficiently, but otherwise I anticipate progressively reducing my work at NPP/AfC/AfD. I have helped a number of good reviewers get started, and now it's their turn. I see myself as primarily a teacher, and the role of a teacher is to bring students to the point where they work independently. DGG ( talk ) 09:51, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
See this discussion which throws NPP into quicksand. We could deploy a bot to rid our queue of unsourced articles. Benefits - article creators will learn to cite sources, and our queue will shrink dramatically. It makes -0- sense to not draftify or even delete unsourced articles. I think maybe delete is a good option, too. Why are we even allowing OR??? It's a policy vio. Atsme 💬 📧 16:58, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
{{{unref}}}
from that template. –
wbm1058 (
talk)
19:11, 23 May 2022 (UTC)bot is not great at telling which articles are unsourced" see see here that in February 2019 there was consensus in favor of a bot run to tag pages with {{ Unreferenced}} but in March 2019 GreenC bot 7 was withdrawn by the operator. – wbm1058 ( talk) 08:43, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
I'd support such a filter. ( t · c) buidhe 19:44, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
I don't know about you, but IMO articles with absolute zero sources of any kind seem exceedingly rare. But articles with 1-2 not-really-sources (e.g. a listing-only in some database website) are very common / very numerous. North8000 ( talk) 20:16, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
North, a few days ago there were more than 700 articles in the "unsourced" queue. Significant portion were fully unsourced and needed draftification or redirect. ( t · c) buidhe 20:22, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
==External links==
to ==References==
, remove the {{
unreferenced}} tag, and voila. Done. Any objections to my doing this with all similarly referenced American ballplayer bios?Hi folks. I've gotten quite a bit of feedback on the flowchart over the last couple years or so, and the most common feedback was that some of the steps at the bottom should be cut. While I don't necessarily disagree, I have lost the original file that I used the create the flowchart, so updating it in that way would require completely remaking the flowchart from scratch, which is more work than I really want to put in right now.
However, I think that from what I have seen that there is a rough consensus that the bottom four bubbles of the chart should at least be considered 'optional' steps, and I've updated the flowchart with that in mind. You might have to clear cached images to be able to see the changes. Please let me know if you if you disagree with the change or have any further feedback. — Insertcleverphrasehere( or here)( or here)( or here) 20:15, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
I'm of the mind that Draftify needs further review. Just curious...who crafted the section WP:DRAFTOBJECT?? Was it a community decision to accept this explanatory essay as part of the deletion policy? Atsme 💬 📧 12:39, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
St Lawrence's Church, Erfurt is a translation from German WP. It has one ref, but the bulk of the article has no citations, and there is a More Citations needed tag placed by the author. I believe this church is notable, but the author knows it is poorly cited and is apparently leaving it for others to fix. It would be declined in its present state at AFC. Draftify or pass? MB 21:26, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
Via this thread, I discovered that several autopatrolled editors are creating articles without any sources whatsoever: List of ports in Iran, Sara Fernández Roldán, Pierre Pasquier (colonial administrator), Lot (fineness), 2022 Leinster Senior Hurling Championship Final, 2022 UEC European Track Championships, Midnight Cop (all by separate editors). It looks like most of them have had the permission for years.
It's my understanding that such behavior is not considered acceptable for autopatrolled editors. What should be done about these editors? What processes are in place to identify autopatrolled editors who aren't using the permission according to community expectations? ( t · c) buidhe 03:24, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
Do we know how many autopatrolled pages are created per week? I think that would weigh in on a decision to remove the privilege altogether. If it's just a low number, it won't make things much worse than they currently are.— rsjaffe 🗣️ 22:40, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
So I was working away at the old feed yesterday and Germany came up. After a double take and a quick check to make sure I wasn't being pranked in some way, I tagged it as reviewed. But I can't shake the nagging question, WHY? And I thought I'd put the question to those wiser and smarter than I. Stop preening, that bar is pretty low... Best Alexandermcnabb ( talk) 09:08, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
Is it possible to acquire stats that tell us the # of PRODs that were denied, and went to AfD and survived? Atsme 💬 📧 11:34, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
At Nsports I requested a tweak to clarify: Request from NPP'er that apparent conflict in "seasons" section be clarified But absent that / in the meantime, is there a common practice to handle those. For example a season article on a higher-level sports team which is "stats only" other than an introductory sentence? Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 02:09, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
Anyone want to play detective for these UPE classifieds? I can’t find anything that is of use, but someone else might, anyway, here are the classifieds [2] [3]. Anyway, some more eyes would be helpful with this. | Zippybonzo | Talk | 13:58, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
With help from DatGuy, I have a new template to display the current backlog (updated every 15 minutes). I have added it to the header of the NPP project pages. It can be used elsewhere (e.g. your user page) just to make the backlog more visible to more people. It is {{ NPP backlog}}. MB 22:40, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
Is anyone else having an issue with the curation tool? I've noticed that I can't see the latest edits in the top left hand corner of the article anymore, and also, when I nominate to AfD, the corresponding entry in AfD doesn't appear. Iseult Δx parlez moi 17:46, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
Right now that page looks like just another talk page....a duplication of this one. We probably need place/routine of really hammering out decisions, (including which technical things to ask for) and a place to record decisions that have long term relevance. Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 21:19, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
I just did my first userfication of an article. Otopeni Olympic Aquatics Centre to En.wikipedia.org/wiki/RaduDB28/Otopeni Olympic Aquatics Centre Did I screw anything up? Any comments/tips? Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 01:40, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
importScript('User:Evad37/MoveToDraft.js');
to
User:North8000/common.js. Method 2 (my preferred method): go to Preferences -> Gadgets -> Advanced -> check "Install scripts without having to manually edit JavaScript files" -> Save. Then visit
User:Evad37/MoveToDraft.js and click the "Install" button at the top center. –
Novem Linguae (
talk)
18:09, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
{{subst:iusc|User:Evad37/MoveToDraft.js}}
On the page, there is this note:
Note: Patrollers may wish to monitor usernames flagged by filters 148 and 149 and this recent changes filter tag.
Filter 148 is about possible autobiography creation and looks interesting. Filter 149 is user adding link to an article that contains the user's name, and does not look interesting, as those users get blocked pretty quickly by admins. The third link points to possible self promotion in userspace--is this something we should be looking for? (Often the user page qualifies for speedy deletion. This doesn't seem to be as heavily patrolled as filter 149 is.) — rsjaffe 🗣️ 21:11, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
New pages, and various other options in user-preferences at this stats tool. This link shows the stats that include edits by Anonymous + Group bot + Name bot + User. Search it any ole way you like. Atsme 💬 📧 17:31, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
Admittedly, "How I Met Your Mother" was a popular TV show. However, currently in the queue is an article created in 2010 about the eleventh episode of the first season here. In 2015 it was tagged for multiple issues. There are no citations and only an external ink to IMDb.
I checked for sources about this particular episode and I haven't found any. I'm thinking articles like this should go through the deletion process. Is there any consensus here for keeping or wishing to delete articles such as this? Or any recommendations on how other NPP members deal with such pages?
For the moment I am going to PROD this page. I am leaving the multiple issues tag in place. --- Steve Quinn ( talk) 03:55, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
Is there advice or common NPP practice for "stats only" articles for local elections? A typcal example of many that I've see is 1996 Chorley Borough Council election Maybe an intro sentence saying that it was held and who won. and the only source is to the stats. It can be assumed that every election ever held had coverage. WP:not says there should be prose. Thanks! Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 17:59, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
Thanks I think NPP's main role it's to identify articles that shouldn't be separate articles in Wikipedia under relevant policies, guidelines and norms. If the topic is OK for a stand-alone article in Wikipedia, even the worst article just needs work. If the topic is not OK, then it doesn't matter how nice it is, it shouldn't exist as a separate article. I really don't know the answer on these. I think that each of the ~100.000,000 local, elections held has probably had coverage and so could pass current wp:notability requirements. IMO the less sure area is whether it passes wp:not. Sincerely,, North8000 ( talk) 21:18, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
I AFD'd the example one and asked for a thorough review as it may provide guidance or precedent for similar articles. ( Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/1996 Chorley Borough Council election ) My summary there is: Reviewed during new page patrol. I wasn't sure what to do with (ones like) this one and opened a discussion at NPP and there were mixed thoughts/ no clear answer there. Accordingly, I would like to request a thorough large-participation review as the results this might set a direction or provide guidance. This is about a 1996 election in an area with approx 107,000 residents. It consists about 99% election results data with the other 1% being a few intro sentences. There is nothing unusual about the election. Wp:not is not explicit on this but in a few places seems to preclude this type of article. There was doubtless some local coverage. Saying that "presumed local coverage" alone should green-light it would mean that there probably I'd guess about 100,000,000 stats-only local election articles that could be green lighted. I believe there is no applicable SNG, nor precedent documented in wp:outcomes. The editor appears to be in the process of creating separate article for each election / year for this borough. Thanks in advance for your thorough review of this.North8000 ( talk) 15:39, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
I prefer to not let this issue die on the vine because the problems are still in the forefront. Apologies for the length, but from a cost vs benefit perspective, the cost is overwhelming. I do know that some admins & editors are using
WP:PRESERVE incorrectly in their keep arguments, despite the fact that the policy unequivocally states (my underline): As explained above, Wikipedia is a work in progress and perfection is not required. As long as any of the facts or ideas added to an article would belong in the "finished" article, they should be retained if they meet the three article content retention policies: Neutral point of view (which does not mean no point of view), Verifiability, and No original research.
Upon arriving at an unsourced article, the state of the article fails
WP:V and
WP:GNG, and should be left to NPP's discretion to either draftify, userfy, CSD, PROD or AfD. Of course, a volunteer can also choose to spend their time finding sources, and verifying another editor's credited creation. I mentioned the latter relative to UPE/PE. But how does that extra work reduce the AfC/NPP backlog?
There's also the issue of NPP tagging for CSD or PROD, that turns out to be for naught if the responding admin is an inclusionist, or misinterpreted a policy, such as PRESERVE, and simply removes the tag. Why are admins making content decisions? Now I understand why some editors insist that RfA candidates have GAs or FAs under their belt. Some of the reasons to refuse a CSD or PROD of an unsourced article actually conflict with our policies. NPP is then left with AfD where more time is wasted, in part because of the inclusionist vs deletionist wars. See the current ArbCom case. It could all be so easily resolved without losing any of our long time editors to (a) burn-out, (b) an admin action or (c) feeling unappreciated.
The ambiguity and contradictions in our PAGs are another part of the problem, but more specific to NPP is the following jewel 💎:
Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#WP:NOTCSD, particularly as it relates to unsourced stubs/articles. I inadvertently ruffled an
admin's feathers when, in my head, I was referring to all hoaxes, including 2. Less-obvious hoaxes. If even remotely plausible, a suspected hoax article should be subjected to further scrutiny in a wider forum. Truth is often stranger than fiction. Note that "blatant and obvious hoaxes and misinformation" are subject to speedy deletion as vandalism.
Nearly every single item in that list leads to the heart of our woes, and encourages bad behavior...including the use of BOTs for article creation. It also demonstrates a level of inconsideration, inadvertent or otherwise, which leaves NPP with morale issues. Within minutes of an unsourced article being indexed and published in mainspace, multiple webcrawlers are all over it before NPP has had a chance to review it. Think about the time spent at AfD because of garbage articles that were in the NPP queue, including reverted redirects, unsourced articles, less-obvious hoaxes, OR, essays, non-notable BLPs, etc. (Part of the reason for my stats request) NPP volunteers do have the advantage of the curation tool, a sorted and filterable queue, and (hopefully) a growing number of qualified NPP reviewers, but for some reason whenever our work is involved...well,
Rodney Dangerfield comes to mind.
FBDB
If a subject is notable and worthy of inclusion, the stub/article should be properly written and formatted, and cited to RS by the article creator. The absence of RS speaks loudly to WP:V and WP:GNG, and clearly justifies drafity/userfy/PROD/CSD. To add to the weight of the world on our shoulders, we also have to struggle with UPE, and as we've long since learned after a few desysops, site bans and removals of autopatrolled rights, money is a big motivator...but we continue to AGF.
I think we're too focused on the symptoms instead of removing the cancer, which requires looking in the right places in order to craft a proper remedy. Admins and arbcom are taxed with looking at editor behavior, which is obviously a symptom of a bigger problem; we're leaving the cancer untouched. The remedy lies somewhere in the process of creating articles in mainspace, and that is what needs to be changed. We should be putting safeguards into place to prevent or limit unsourced BOT creations, and work more diligently at preventing unsourced articles from going viral on the internet. NPP should not have to deal with these relentless time sinks that can easily be resolved. Think about the following:
I look forward to further input. Atsme 💬 📧 17:15, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
Within minutes of an unsourced article being indexed and published in mainspace, multiple webcrawlers are all over it before NPP has had a chance to review it.The webcrawlers ignore new articles until NPPs marked it as reviewed or until 90 days pass, thanks to the $wgPageTriageMaxAge setting in mw:Extension:PageTriage.
The ambiguity and contradictions in our PAGs another part of the problem. I think for any wiki-issue where there are two major sides that can't agree, the PAGs get out of date, stuck in an equilibrium that is tolerable to both sides, but verbose, ambiguous, and not reflective of how things are currently working. The notability guidelines are the crown jewel of this, in my opinion, making notability one of the most complicated Wikipedia policy areas to master. – Novem Linguae ( talk) 18:15, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
we're too focused on the symptoms instead of removing the cancer– I might be missing something, but what is the "cancer" that's the main focus of this thread?
The onus should be on the creator to write an article that, while naturally a work in progress, won't have any trouble demonstrating notability, neutrality, and verifiability, and with a presentation coherent enough that a non-expert patroller can seamlessly pass the article. If one wouldn't author an article on a topic (e.g., for not being familiar with the subject matter) and is faced with a half-baked new article in mainspace, why is it reasonable to expect them to search and sift through sources on the level of a subject-matter expert or in another language? That's a rather more difficult task than simply checking that the text and provided sources meet all the core content policies.Yep. 100% agree. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 23:49, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
I really like "The onus..." bullet point that ComplexRational added above and rsjaffe re-posted in agreement. Add another +1 from me, as it is one of my primary concerns which I mentioned when beginning this discussion. CR wrapped it up nicely in a nutshell. It appears we have identified some of our most immediate concerns; therefore, I recommend that we craft an RfC and present it right here to community. Our focus should be on our most urgent concerns and proposed remedies but should be presented one at a time so that we don't overwhelm the community. I remain cautiously optimistic that most editors are aware of, and understand the issues we're facing, but it also appears that we have a substantial portion who do not, much less understand the reviewing process or why we should not allow unsourced articles into mainspace. Evidence of my concerns are demonstrated very clearly at VPP; in fact, there is a whole page of it. I recently commented here, and also commented earlier in that discussion as I alluded to in my initial post above. There are quite a few admins who have a much different view of NPP and unsourced articles, which puts me at a loss as to how we should deal with it, if at all. Perhaps it will require an ARCA case, I don't know. Let's just take it one step at a time, start with a well-crafted RfC, and hope for the best. Atsme 💬 📧 12:37, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
Reprinted here from recent comments in another place:
NPP has an atrocious backlog, some of which results from reverted redirects. [...] NPP is currently discussing how best to create some form of automation that would handle a significant portion of these issues, but it's not going to happen quickly. Furthermore, we do have issues with UPEs creating noncompliant articles and stubs, and new editors creating 2 sentence stubs that are unsourced. These problems are not shrinking, rather they are growing with advancements in technology as more people globally learn the benefits of a WP article. NPP reviewers are not here to create, expand, source, and fix articles for the creators of those articles – be they UPE or newbies. –Atsme
I am more concerned about UPEs and the problems they create, and equally as concerned about the fast pace of NPP reviewer burn-out. [...] I'm hard pressed to believe that poorly written, and/or unsourced articles add to the credibility of WP, or that we will ever run short of articles in mainspace. I'm also of the mind that it's actually in the best interest of the project to AfD, redirect or draftify poorly written, unsourced articles that fail the key elements of GNG, V, & NOR than to leave them in mainspace with tags that too few editors have time to address. The onus is on the article creator to properly prepare their article(s) for mainspace. For us to not enforce that aspect of AfC, we are rewarding the creators of bad articles by allowing those articles to remain. –Atsme
Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 02:33, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
@ Rsjaffe:'s idea sounds like a way to easily implement @ Rosguill:'s idea. We should start discussing, solidifying and agreeing on such ideas instead of letting them just disappear into the talk page archives. My idea would be write up a tidied up version of the Rosguill/DarkSlateGrey with "The following is considered to be a common and acceptable practice at NPP:" Should we work on this? North8000 ( talk) 19:08, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
The article about an album In Amber has not been pratrolled yet after three days. It is already seen 300 times a day. Could anyone patrol it as for now, one doesn't still find the article on a google research with the words "In Amber album Hercules and Love Affair wikipedia". Carliertwo ( talk) 18:02, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
See Messaging the creator. Whether optional or not, does anyone know why the message feature has been removed entirely? Have I missed something? Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 10:26, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Please see my response at Village Pump relative to WP:OR footnote (a). Kudz - your thoughts, please? I asked Joe if he could provide a link to that community discussion. I think it's very important for NPP & AfC participants to provide input here in this discussion. Atsme 💬 📧 14:59, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
Blocked for spamming and sockpuppetry per Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Mostly shoaib. Neil Patel (digital marketer) is a very suspicious accept (see history at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Neil Patel (digital marketer)). Reviews should be examined for corruption. MER-C 08:49, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Well, it's part of the system that unsuitable articles get into mainspace and then weeded out by NPP, so it's no mystery how they got into mainspace. The problem is that NPP job has gotten too difficult, painful and time consuming. On the face of it the big problem is the lobsided math dictated by wp:before. (30 NPP's are supposed to be doing the source searching instead of the zillion article creators). I think more recently compounded by the large influx of articles where the potential sources are not in English where the search gets 10 times more time intensive/consuming. But if you set aside the possibility of changing wp:before, we can easily do a big part of the fix by saying that the NPP routine is that articles which don't satisfy an SNG and don't have GNG-establishing sourcing in them will be moved to draft space so that sourcing to satisfy can be added if it exists. North8000 ( talk) 16:20, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
One user, Littlefriendlyghost, is on a BLP creation rampage. Today alone they created 5 new biographies and a total of 8 since the 16th. Couple of things cause some concern, with one mitigating factor.
Concern that this is an UPE is that there isn't any theme or nexus that would pique the interest of a random editor in all the people being portrayed. The editor has 17 live edits, 8 of which are page creations. Also, one page created was deleted under G11 and A7 (advertising and no indication of significance).
Mitigating factor is that the editor, on their user page, essentially states that this is a new user id because they lost their credentials to their former id. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 23:45, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Conduct in deletion-related editing
I am wondering whether NPP (and AfC to a lesser extent) collectively should be a party to this or at least some statement should be submitted about NPPs concerns, since we have several active discussions on this page revolving around the issues of delete/draft/noindex. Slywriter ( talk) 13:46, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
WP:ANI#Recent influx of problematic articles on Arabian language novels may be of interest to the people here (and vice versa, the input from people from here may be of interest to the people at ANI ;-) ). Fram ( talk) 13:34, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
Is there a way to disable the page curation toolbar? I am experiencing a typing lag when editing Wikipedia that first manifested approximately around the same time I received the new page patroller privilege. Schierbecker ( talk) 07:35, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
Mostly an observation, but look at these two examples: Draft:Madhvi Subrahmanian, and 5 potential biographies in draft. The following category is interesting: Category:Created_via_preloaddraft – they appear to be worthy articles/biographies in main space. I randomly read a few, and picked this one as an example, but then I'm a bit of a history buff, and tend to consider much of history notable. Atsme 💬 📧 15:24, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
Hola. So I've been coming across a number of new articles like this one in the feed from one editor, who is creating one-line articles with three sources from foreign language wikis and tagging the newly created article with the foreign language sources tag!!! This strikes me as mildly egregious - bagging article creation (undoubtedly the name of the game) and then leaving other editors to turn it into a halfway decent article. I've left a message on their talk asking them to perhaps consider, but is there anything else we can do? We're looking at a large number of poor one-line articles being created as a result... Best Alexandermcnabb ( talk) 14:23, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 40 | Archive 41 | Archive 42 | Archive 43 | Archive 44 | Archive 45 | → | Archive 50 |
I got the NPP Newsletter. I see the backlog is huge again. I'll start working on in the next couple of days, try and do a coupla thousand before the end of the month. scope_creep Talk 12:27, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
Seems like a common use case that fills up the back of the queue. We'll have a patrolled redirect get turned into an article, then reverted. Would there be support for patrolling these automatically with a bot? I can put a WP:BOTREQ in if there's consensus. cc User:DannyS712 – Novem Linguae ( talk) 21:28, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
So the simpler version of this task would be just to extend my existing redirect autopatrolling to including redirects that are not the only revision (which I think is currently a requirement).Are there more details to that? If we simply patrol all redirects originating from an unpatrolled article, I think that could be problematic. Your bulleted list above is good, I think that workflow is correct and is in sync with what I was suggesting. To simplify the coding/speed up the bot, could change
and a previous version of the article was a redirect to the same targetto
and the 2nd to last version of the article was a redirect to the same target, or put a limit of 10 revisions deep or something. – Novem Linguae ( talk) 00:15, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
Completely off topic: Does article -> redirect not unreview? That seems like an easy way for someone to go ahead and soft delete a page. I personally have been checking histories as I review redirects. I remember recent(not so recent?) conversations onwiki about limits on draftifying because the community was concerned about NPPers doing unilateral deletions by way of G13. And be honest, when's the last time you've looked at page history for a redirect, cause I don't unless I'm patrolling? Happy Editing-- IAm Chaos 00:24, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
Earlier today I blocked new page patroller Hatchens for undisclosed paid editing. Specifically, he seems to have been accepting drafts written by other UPErs and as he also had autopatrolled I think these will have skipped the NPP queue too. More details at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#User:Hatchens. – Joe ( talk) 15:16, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
North8000 did a great job in the above thread that could be yet another attempt at NPP reform. I'd like to get a parallel conversation started about sharing tips. Discounting proposals to change how NPP works, do you have any practical tips to share with other reviewers about how to improve the work as defined today? MarioGom ( talk) 16:04, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
Here is a classic example of articles that were redirects and end-up in the NPP queue because one editor believes it shouldn't be redirected and others believe it should. So what is the best remedy for keeping these situations out of the queue without getting into an edit war, a t-ban, and whatever else tends to arise from such disagreements? Atsme 💬 📧 16:19, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
Since we lost the diligent One the backlog has been spiralling out of control. One option is running another backlog drive; I believe we achieved at least moderate increase in reviewing with the last one. ( t · c) buidhe 23:16, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
it's the worst it's been since 2018
- What a coincidence! It's time to prune the deadwood out of that ridiculous list of 0ver 700 reviewers. Now where are the coords?
Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (
talk)
23:36, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
I have some ideas that I'm trying to tidy up to present. North8000 ( talk) 01:56, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
The admins have sympathy for us (except Rosguill who is one of us) and are approving requests much much quicker, and I got about 50 pages done this morning so if every reviewer did something like that, that’s part of the backlog gone, but we are keeping up with the new pages as they come in. So those are some positives, negatives are that we probably will have some more UPE’s bubbling up if the admins are reviewing requests faster, | Zippybonzo | Talk | 19:55, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
I've been noodling on this for about a year and here's what I came up with.North8000 ( talk) 14:29, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
The backlog of unreviewed pages is an ongoing unresolved problem which is getting worse. As of this writing it is 15,000 and rapidly growing. This is the result of hundreds of factors, some good, some bad. Any useful analysis requires identifying core solvable problems or good changes which will help improve the situation. I'll discount some other areas discussed as too small to help (e.g. autpopatrol and bot-change related) and focus on the core need and goal which is the amount of throughput of by-human NPP patrol reviews. For shorthand/terminology and ballpark I'm also going to use "30 reviewers" for shorthand because currently this is the number of reviewers averaging 2 review completions per day or more, and under best case scenarios, the number we might have reviewing big enough numbers to solve the issues. And I'll use "1 million" for the number of editors, knowing that it can be considered to be more or less than that depending on the criteria used.
It appears that a throughput of about 1,500 by-human review completions per day is needed. Since maybe a third are just tagged for later re-review, this means about 2,200 reviews a day including those. Attempted reviews where the NPP'er ended up just leaving it it for an expert would raise that number further.
The gorilla in the math living room that affects everything else is that under the best case scenario we have millions of article creators and 30 people doing NPP on what they create.
Analyzing one level down on the throughput side, throughput is the number of active reviewers and the rate of reviews that they can and do accomplish. And one level below that the factors are influx of reviewers that are really going to review, having them get better at it, having them spend more time reviewing, making it easier to accomplish reviews, and retaining them as active reviewers. And of course, making the process less difficult and more pleasant is key to many of these.
Even to get to moderate proficiency requires a wiki-knowledge level which is higher than that of an average admin. For example, to be able to review even 1/2 of the articles that need review requires extensive knowledge of all of the notability guidelines, wp:not, wp:common outcomes and some knowledge of of the undocumented fuzzy wp:notability ecosystems works. To get that to 95% requires far more than that, with medium knowledge of most of the fields covered by the SNG (e.g. to know the sports terminology and structure to interpret the SNG), fluency with a wide range of tools (source-searching, copyvio and translation tools) 4-5 other major guidelines and policies and fluency in searching sources in non-english countries.
If one listens to everybody who comments or complains on what seems to be implied, the expectations of what could be covered in a NPP review are gigantic. The list of all of the tags to apply implies catching every possible problem or weakness in an article. The NPP flowchart is not really as demanding as it appears at first glance, but does included copyvio searches and analysis of the results.
NPP'er satisfaction with and enjoyment of the work is essential to recruiting reviewers, having them do more, and staying around. Even if they ignore the complainers, the unwritten expectations inflicted by NPP itself are so high that nearly everybody is going to think "I'm doing a bad job". And, to add to that it is a painful job once one sees comments and happenings at articles that they AFD and similar places.
Of all of the zillions of possible tasks for NPP, 95% could be called article development including identifying and fixing problems. Mathematically the 95% needs to be handled by the millions of editors, not the 30 NPP'ers. The other 5% that can really only be done by NPP is acting as the gatekeepers on "is it OK for this article to exist?" questions.
WP:Before regarding sourcing inflicts a mathematical impossibility on NPP. For an extreme example to illustrate,in 10 minutes, each of the million editors could create 10 sourceless articles on non-notable people in non-english-speaking countries. Each will require about a 1/2 hour by an NPP'er to comply with wp:before before sending it to AFD. So those 10 million articles will require 5,000,000 person hours by the 30 NPP'ers to send them to AFD. If they each average 5 wikihours a week to work on NPP, WP:Before makes it so that it would take the NPP'ers 641 years to "properly" review what the million editors can create in 10 minutes. Mathematically, the only solution to this doubly lopsided situation is that including needed wp:notability-related sources (thus confirming that they exist) needs to be the job of the 1,000,00 editors, not the 30 reviewers.
I'd been willing to be some type of an assistant co-ordinator here to work on such things. I'd navigate a discussion to decide on what to do and then to try to help implement.North8000 ( talk) 14:29, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
moderate proficiency requires a wiki-knowledge level which is higher than that of an average admin. For example, to be able to review even 1/2 of the articles that need review requires extensive knowledge of all of the notability guidelines. IIRC I can't pull {{ tq}}'s off of discord without incurring the wrath of certain people, but we were just talking about sorting out who likes certain categories, and maybe targeting Wikiprojects for NPPSORT pages that have particular backlogs and ask the reviewers who watch that page who are more familiar with the subjects RS/NGs to try and get them down. Of course there is discussion above on this page about a full on drive, whoch could (should) help as well. Happy Editing-- IAm Chaos 15:34, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
MarioGom ( talk) 15:46, 23 May 2022 (UTC)Throwing here a half-assed idea before going to WT:NPP/R with it:
I'm thinking about some sort of active NPP census, where we share with each other what kind of reviewing we are doing or intend to do.
The structure I was thinking is a list of: all WP:NPPSORT categories + Redirects + Back of the queue + Front of the queue.
Each of us would add our username to the categories we do or intend to do.
This could be useful to drive a recruiting effort (e.g. oh, we have no one really interested in patrolling articles about X region?), maybe also the seed for some other coordination actions (e.g. topic-based drives), discover peers to ask for a second opinion about an article in the same topic of interest, etc.
What do you think?
My "needs 30 minutes" example was admittedly an extreme case to make the "asymmetrical effort" point. Not a statement that I'd spend 30 minutes on it. But to back that up, let's say that somebody puts up an article on a sports figure in a non-english-speaking country (maybe one that doesn't even use the same alphabet characters) in a language that you do not know. How long would it take you to research well enough to say sources don't exist to the point that somebody at AFD won't be finding something and saying that you screwed up? North8000 ( talk) 16:50, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
I've created User:Novem Linguae/Essays/NPP reform notes. This is my attempt to document every NPP reform idea I see. I've grouped the ideas into 5 or so subheadings. Feel free to add to it. – Novem Linguae ( talk) 12:01, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
The July Drive sign-up is currently open, the drive starts on July 1st and ends on July 31st: Sign up here. | Zippybonzo | Talk | 06:36, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
I've come across quite a few articles that are marked as potential copyvio that have been corrected, but the Curation tool still shows them as having a copyvio. Example: Puss in Boots: The Last Wish. Can this anomaly be fixed or must we live with it? DannyS712 are you familiar with the code's instructions and if it can be modified? Atsme 💬 📧 15:58, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
I'm placing this notice here for active reviewers to consider regarding a few proposed additions at Wikipedia talk:Notability (sports)#Expanding Notability for Equestrians. Your input is requested. Atsme 💬 📧 22:00, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
I know that we unbundled autopatrol from the admin toolkit, but many admins create user pages as they tag sock puppets, write essays or user scripts, etc. Would it go against that unbundling RFC to have a bot automatically mark pages created by admins in the user namespace as patrolled? DannyS712 ( talk) 21:45, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
(Moved from another talk page to here for further input) RV University was moved to draft by a previous reviewer. The article has been re-created in Main space and is identical to the draft. Do I move to Draft:RV University-2 or use G6? Just questioning since G6 is not part of NPP script options. Slywriter ( talk) 14:56, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
I hist-merged the draft which is the standard solution for cut-paste moves. Wikipedia:Requests for history merge. – wbm1058 ( talk) 12:52, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
Are we supposed to be upholding the medical project's reliable sources for medical articles in biographical articles? I know it's best practice but I used to review these in DYK and, in my experience, they hardly ever comply. Espresso Addict ( talk) 02:42, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
IP Masking: After gathering final feedback, the WMF will soon be permanently rolling out its IP masking feature. On May 24, 2022 the IP Info feature has been deployed to all wikis as a Beta Feature. This will be of interest for New Page and AfC Reviewers and anyone else concerned with vandalism, COI, UPE, etc. Many of the reasons to view IP addresses will no longer be available to everyone or indeed to other special rights users (admins, recent changes/vandalism patrollers, AfC, NPP, SPI, COI, UPE, etc.) who are not CU functionaries. On En-Wiki, access and use of the CU tool is highly restricted, regulated, and limited in scope. On IP masking:
We currently have an access restriction in place which was informed by our conversations with Legal and Trust & Safety. In general, our goal was to ensure that we do not risk the privacy of an editor by exposing (potentially) sensitive information to users who a) may not need to see it anyway and b) may not be trusted with that information. – WMF
Individual Wikiedias will apparently not be able to opt out of IP Masking which is to be imposed on all WMF projects on a decision of the WMF legal division.
Some questions that are still open regarding this new feature and its tool include:
See description and its discussion. See also further information and discussion for Beta testers on the Test Wiki, and those who would also like to test it and see what it does. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 23:43, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
We are suggesting that admins should have the right to view IP addresses (alongside checkusers) by default as we know it is essential many times for admins to view IP addresses and block them, as appropriate. For patrollers, we suggest a new group/right that can be given to trusted patrollers, as defined by the community norms. We are suggesting a lightweight community-driven process for giving these rights to users who meet some minimum criteria of account tenure and number of edits. Advanced users in the community could also have the right to take away this privilege from anyone they think may be misusing their access to IPs. In addition, WMF T&S staff would also be responsible for handling cases of violation. – WMF
Please note that this is all advance information only. It's not a call to rush off and start a half-baked RfC anywhere on anything. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 01:34, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
Currently 791 users are trying this feature. It can be turned on in your Preferences > Beta features. Testing it does not mean Beta testers will be authorised to use it once the IP Masking has been rolled out. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 05:10, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
The latest chart shows a sudden and significant reversal. This is getting me more motivated now that it doesn't appear to be hopeless. In lieu of any formal backlog reduction drive, how about just a simple monthly goal. I propose 14,000 by the end of the month. I think that should be easy to hit. Since there are no coordinators to discuss this with first, I boldly added a header with this goal. I hope no one objects. MB 04:51, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
they just invite more speed and less qualityMy experience with a similar backlog drive (the AFC backlog drive we did last year, which was really successful and cleared a 4,000 article backlog) was that the quality of the reviews was fine. We confirmed this with a re-review requirement. In my opinion, the biggest problem with that particular backlog drive was that it burned out all the top AFC reviewers for several months, which allowed the backlog to return. – Novem Linguae ( talk) 11:39, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
Furthermore, having tags does not mean the article has been "processed" by NPP. The tags could have been added by anyone, and they can be removed by anyone at any time (including by the author) without fixing the problems. The article needs to stay in the queue until someone does more than tag it (CSD/AFD/Draftify/etc/ or approve). MB 04:28, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
"Sow's Ear Into Silk Purse Machine of those heady early days". Back when this encyclopedia was building entries covering the last couple millennia of history there were entries of merit to develop. Now we have all the articles we need and we're inundated with everything else we don't want or need, given to us by the least talented and most conflicted. Chris Troutman ( talk) 00:41, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
Written four years ago:
Although AfC is not the Article Rescue Squadron, many draft creators (and confirmed editors too), especially single-purpose accounts, submit their creation in Wikipedia expecting other editors to complete it or clean it up. They need to be informed up front that not only are notability and sources required, but that the article must also be appropriate for an encyclopedia, and that clean-up attempts by reviewers might not be the best deployment of their enthusiasm to rescue certain kinds of articles.–The Signpost June 2018
Dialogue with the creator is an intrinsic part of the AfC template system, and used well, more effective than Page Curation's message feature. Unlike New Page Review, whose principal task as a triage is to either tag articles for deletion or pass them for inclusion with perhaps some minor details needing to be addressed, at AfC the skill is in being able to sensibly recognise whether or not a new article has true validity and potential for the encyclopedia and offer some basic advice – the rest is about not being scared to keep or delete.
Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 04:59, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 172#Proposal to ban draftifying articles more than 90 days old without consensus. Just wondering if we should look into appealing this at WP:AN. I am having trouble reading the consensus of this discussion as a consensus to ban draftifying articles more than 90 days old. By my count, there was 45 support, 46 oppose. Hard to imagine the support arguments were so convincing that it overrides the opposes. For example, during the discussion I did a spot check of draftifications at the back of the AFC queue and didn't find any egregious errors. You can search for "Chess, thanks for your comment. I spot checked the first 5. Draft:Dean Shomshak" to see my analysis. Overall I find the hard evidence and diffs of draftification misconduct to be quite lacking, and not enough to override the opposes. – Novem Linguae ( talk) 04:05, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
As mentioned above, I am the principal person screening forthcoming afcs; this is putting an excessive burden on one particular individual. No WP process should depend largely on a single person. I have successively reduced the fields I look at, and I have been forced by the pressures of real life to skip over occasional days altogether. This sort of burden and time pressure is unreasonable for a volunteer. Even trying to keep up greatly reduces my participation in other processes, and my ability to improve or rewrite or translate existing articles, or to do what I really want, which is to help editors develop their skills on an individual basis. This is making my experience at WP increasingly unsatisfactory, and the last few months of statistics at XTools shows the decline in my participation. I shall try to help the forthcoming drive to reduce backlogs as efficiently as I can because I know I can do it efficiently, but otherwise I anticipate progressively reducing my work at NPP/AfC/AfD. I have helped a number of good reviewers get started, and now it's their turn. I see myself as primarily a teacher, and the role of a teacher is to bring students to the point where they work independently. DGG ( talk ) 09:51, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
See this discussion which throws NPP into quicksand. We could deploy a bot to rid our queue of unsourced articles. Benefits - article creators will learn to cite sources, and our queue will shrink dramatically. It makes -0- sense to not draftify or even delete unsourced articles. I think maybe delete is a good option, too. Why are we even allowing OR??? It's a policy vio. Atsme 💬 📧 16:58, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
{{{unref}}}
from that template. –
wbm1058 (
talk)
19:11, 23 May 2022 (UTC)bot is not great at telling which articles are unsourced" see see here that in February 2019 there was consensus in favor of a bot run to tag pages with {{ Unreferenced}} but in March 2019 GreenC bot 7 was withdrawn by the operator. – wbm1058 ( talk) 08:43, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
I'd support such a filter. ( t · c) buidhe 19:44, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
I don't know about you, but IMO articles with absolute zero sources of any kind seem exceedingly rare. But articles with 1-2 not-really-sources (e.g. a listing-only in some database website) are very common / very numerous. North8000 ( talk) 20:16, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
North, a few days ago there were more than 700 articles in the "unsourced" queue. Significant portion were fully unsourced and needed draftification or redirect. ( t · c) buidhe 20:22, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
==External links==
to ==References==
, remove the {{
unreferenced}} tag, and voila. Done. Any objections to my doing this with all similarly referenced American ballplayer bios?Hi folks. I've gotten quite a bit of feedback on the flowchart over the last couple years or so, and the most common feedback was that some of the steps at the bottom should be cut. While I don't necessarily disagree, I have lost the original file that I used the create the flowchart, so updating it in that way would require completely remaking the flowchart from scratch, which is more work than I really want to put in right now.
However, I think that from what I have seen that there is a rough consensus that the bottom four bubbles of the chart should at least be considered 'optional' steps, and I've updated the flowchart with that in mind. You might have to clear cached images to be able to see the changes. Please let me know if you if you disagree with the change or have any further feedback. — Insertcleverphrasehere( or here)( or here)( or here) 20:15, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
I'm of the mind that Draftify needs further review. Just curious...who crafted the section WP:DRAFTOBJECT?? Was it a community decision to accept this explanatory essay as part of the deletion policy? Atsme 💬 📧 12:39, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
St Lawrence's Church, Erfurt is a translation from German WP. It has one ref, but the bulk of the article has no citations, and there is a More Citations needed tag placed by the author. I believe this church is notable, but the author knows it is poorly cited and is apparently leaving it for others to fix. It would be declined in its present state at AFC. Draftify or pass? MB 21:26, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
Via this thread, I discovered that several autopatrolled editors are creating articles without any sources whatsoever: List of ports in Iran, Sara Fernández Roldán, Pierre Pasquier (colonial administrator), Lot (fineness), 2022 Leinster Senior Hurling Championship Final, 2022 UEC European Track Championships, Midnight Cop (all by separate editors). It looks like most of them have had the permission for years.
It's my understanding that such behavior is not considered acceptable for autopatrolled editors. What should be done about these editors? What processes are in place to identify autopatrolled editors who aren't using the permission according to community expectations? ( t · c) buidhe 03:24, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
Do we know how many autopatrolled pages are created per week? I think that would weigh in on a decision to remove the privilege altogether. If it's just a low number, it won't make things much worse than they currently are.— rsjaffe 🗣️ 22:40, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
So I was working away at the old feed yesterday and Germany came up. After a double take and a quick check to make sure I wasn't being pranked in some way, I tagged it as reviewed. But I can't shake the nagging question, WHY? And I thought I'd put the question to those wiser and smarter than I. Stop preening, that bar is pretty low... Best Alexandermcnabb ( talk) 09:08, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
Is it possible to acquire stats that tell us the # of PRODs that were denied, and went to AfD and survived? Atsme 💬 📧 11:34, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
At Nsports I requested a tweak to clarify: Request from NPP'er that apparent conflict in "seasons" section be clarified But absent that / in the meantime, is there a common practice to handle those. For example a season article on a higher-level sports team which is "stats only" other than an introductory sentence? Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 02:09, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
Anyone want to play detective for these UPE classifieds? I can’t find anything that is of use, but someone else might, anyway, here are the classifieds [2] [3]. Anyway, some more eyes would be helpful with this. | Zippybonzo | Talk | 13:58, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
With help from DatGuy, I have a new template to display the current backlog (updated every 15 minutes). I have added it to the header of the NPP project pages. It can be used elsewhere (e.g. your user page) just to make the backlog more visible to more people. It is {{ NPP backlog}}. MB 22:40, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
Is anyone else having an issue with the curation tool? I've noticed that I can't see the latest edits in the top left hand corner of the article anymore, and also, when I nominate to AfD, the corresponding entry in AfD doesn't appear. Iseult Δx parlez moi 17:46, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
Right now that page looks like just another talk page....a duplication of this one. We probably need place/routine of really hammering out decisions, (including which technical things to ask for) and a place to record decisions that have long term relevance. Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 21:19, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
I just did my first userfication of an article. Otopeni Olympic Aquatics Centre to En.wikipedia.org/wiki/RaduDB28/Otopeni Olympic Aquatics Centre Did I screw anything up? Any comments/tips? Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 01:40, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
importScript('User:Evad37/MoveToDraft.js');
to
User:North8000/common.js. Method 2 (my preferred method): go to Preferences -> Gadgets -> Advanced -> check "Install scripts without having to manually edit JavaScript files" -> Save. Then visit
User:Evad37/MoveToDraft.js and click the "Install" button at the top center. –
Novem Linguae (
talk)
18:09, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
{{subst:iusc|User:Evad37/MoveToDraft.js}}
On the page, there is this note:
Note: Patrollers may wish to monitor usernames flagged by filters 148 and 149 and this recent changes filter tag.
Filter 148 is about possible autobiography creation and looks interesting. Filter 149 is user adding link to an article that contains the user's name, and does not look interesting, as those users get blocked pretty quickly by admins. The third link points to possible self promotion in userspace--is this something we should be looking for? (Often the user page qualifies for speedy deletion. This doesn't seem to be as heavily patrolled as filter 149 is.) — rsjaffe 🗣️ 21:11, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
New pages, and various other options in user-preferences at this stats tool. This link shows the stats that include edits by Anonymous + Group bot + Name bot + User. Search it any ole way you like. Atsme 💬 📧 17:31, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
Admittedly, "How I Met Your Mother" was a popular TV show. However, currently in the queue is an article created in 2010 about the eleventh episode of the first season here. In 2015 it was tagged for multiple issues. There are no citations and only an external ink to IMDb.
I checked for sources about this particular episode and I haven't found any. I'm thinking articles like this should go through the deletion process. Is there any consensus here for keeping or wishing to delete articles such as this? Or any recommendations on how other NPP members deal with such pages?
For the moment I am going to PROD this page. I am leaving the multiple issues tag in place. --- Steve Quinn ( talk) 03:55, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
Is there advice or common NPP practice for "stats only" articles for local elections? A typcal example of many that I've see is 1996 Chorley Borough Council election Maybe an intro sentence saying that it was held and who won. and the only source is to the stats. It can be assumed that every election ever held had coverage. WP:not says there should be prose. Thanks! Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 17:59, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
Thanks I think NPP's main role it's to identify articles that shouldn't be separate articles in Wikipedia under relevant policies, guidelines and norms. If the topic is OK for a stand-alone article in Wikipedia, even the worst article just needs work. If the topic is not OK, then it doesn't matter how nice it is, it shouldn't exist as a separate article. I really don't know the answer on these. I think that each of the ~100.000,000 local, elections held has probably had coverage and so could pass current wp:notability requirements. IMO the less sure area is whether it passes wp:not. Sincerely,, North8000 ( talk) 21:18, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
I AFD'd the example one and asked for a thorough review as it may provide guidance or precedent for similar articles. ( Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/1996 Chorley Borough Council election ) My summary there is: Reviewed during new page patrol. I wasn't sure what to do with (ones like) this one and opened a discussion at NPP and there were mixed thoughts/ no clear answer there. Accordingly, I would like to request a thorough large-participation review as the results this might set a direction or provide guidance. This is about a 1996 election in an area with approx 107,000 residents. It consists about 99% election results data with the other 1% being a few intro sentences. There is nothing unusual about the election. Wp:not is not explicit on this but in a few places seems to preclude this type of article. There was doubtless some local coverage. Saying that "presumed local coverage" alone should green-light it would mean that there probably I'd guess about 100,000,000 stats-only local election articles that could be green lighted. I believe there is no applicable SNG, nor precedent documented in wp:outcomes. The editor appears to be in the process of creating separate article for each election / year for this borough. Thanks in advance for your thorough review of this.North8000 ( talk) 15:39, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
I prefer to not let this issue die on the vine because the problems are still in the forefront. Apologies for the length, but from a cost vs benefit perspective, the cost is overwhelming. I do know that some admins & editors are using
WP:PRESERVE incorrectly in their keep arguments, despite the fact that the policy unequivocally states (my underline): As explained above, Wikipedia is a work in progress and perfection is not required. As long as any of the facts or ideas added to an article would belong in the "finished" article, they should be retained if they meet the three article content retention policies: Neutral point of view (which does not mean no point of view), Verifiability, and No original research.
Upon arriving at an unsourced article, the state of the article fails
WP:V and
WP:GNG, and should be left to NPP's discretion to either draftify, userfy, CSD, PROD or AfD. Of course, a volunteer can also choose to spend their time finding sources, and verifying another editor's credited creation. I mentioned the latter relative to UPE/PE. But how does that extra work reduce the AfC/NPP backlog?
There's also the issue of NPP tagging for CSD or PROD, that turns out to be for naught if the responding admin is an inclusionist, or misinterpreted a policy, such as PRESERVE, and simply removes the tag. Why are admins making content decisions? Now I understand why some editors insist that RfA candidates have GAs or FAs under their belt. Some of the reasons to refuse a CSD or PROD of an unsourced article actually conflict with our policies. NPP is then left with AfD where more time is wasted, in part because of the inclusionist vs deletionist wars. See the current ArbCom case. It could all be so easily resolved without losing any of our long time editors to (a) burn-out, (b) an admin action or (c) feeling unappreciated.
The ambiguity and contradictions in our PAGs are another part of the problem, but more specific to NPP is the following jewel 💎:
Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#WP:NOTCSD, particularly as it relates to unsourced stubs/articles. I inadvertently ruffled an
admin's feathers when, in my head, I was referring to all hoaxes, including 2. Less-obvious hoaxes. If even remotely plausible, a suspected hoax article should be subjected to further scrutiny in a wider forum. Truth is often stranger than fiction. Note that "blatant and obvious hoaxes and misinformation" are subject to speedy deletion as vandalism.
Nearly every single item in that list leads to the heart of our woes, and encourages bad behavior...including the use of BOTs for article creation. It also demonstrates a level of inconsideration, inadvertent or otherwise, which leaves NPP with morale issues. Within minutes of an unsourced article being indexed and published in mainspace, multiple webcrawlers are all over it before NPP has had a chance to review it. Think about the time spent at AfD because of garbage articles that were in the NPP queue, including reverted redirects, unsourced articles, less-obvious hoaxes, OR, essays, non-notable BLPs, etc. (Part of the reason for my stats request) NPP volunteers do have the advantage of the curation tool, a sorted and filterable queue, and (hopefully) a growing number of qualified NPP reviewers, but for some reason whenever our work is involved...well,
Rodney Dangerfield comes to mind.
FBDB
If a subject is notable and worthy of inclusion, the stub/article should be properly written and formatted, and cited to RS by the article creator. The absence of RS speaks loudly to WP:V and WP:GNG, and clearly justifies drafity/userfy/PROD/CSD. To add to the weight of the world on our shoulders, we also have to struggle with UPE, and as we've long since learned after a few desysops, site bans and removals of autopatrolled rights, money is a big motivator...but we continue to AGF.
I think we're too focused on the symptoms instead of removing the cancer, which requires looking in the right places in order to craft a proper remedy. Admins and arbcom are taxed with looking at editor behavior, which is obviously a symptom of a bigger problem; we're leaving the cancer untouched. The remedy lies somewhere in the process of creating articles in mainspace, and that is what needs to be changed. We should be putting safeguards into place to prevent or limit unsourced BOT creations, and work more diligently at preventing unsourced articles from going viral on the internet. NPP should not have to deal with these relentless time sinks that can easily be resolved. Think about the following:
I look forward to further input. Atsme 💬 📧 17:15, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
Within minutes of an unsourced article being indexed and published in mainspace, multiple webcrawlers are all over it before NPP has had a chance to review it.The webcrawlers ignore new articles until NPPs marked it as reviewed or until 90 days pass, thanks to the $wgPageTriageMaxAge setting in mw:Extension:PageTriage.
The ambiguity and contradictions in our PAGs another part of the problem. I think for any wiki-issue where there are two major sides that can't agree, the PAGs get out of date, stuck in an equilibrium that is tolerable to both sides, but verbose, ambiguous, and not reflective of how things are currently working. The notability guidelines are the crown jewel of this, in my opinion, making notability one of the most complicated Wikipedia policy areas to master. – Novem Linguae ( talk) 18:15, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
we're too focused on the symptoms instead of removing the cancer– I might be missing something, but what is the "cancer" that's the main focus of this thread?
The onus should be on the creator to write an article that, while naturally a work in progress, won't have any trouble demonstrating notability, neutrality, and verifiability, and with a presentation coherent enough that a non-expert patroller can seamlessly pass the article. If one wouldn't author an article on a topic (e.g., for not being familiar with the subject matter) and is faced with a half-baked new article in mainspace, why is it reasonable to expect them to search and sift through sources on the level of a subject-matter expert or in another language? That's a rather more difficult task than simply checking that the text and provided sources meet all the core content policies.Yep. 100% agree. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 23:49, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
I really like "The onus..." bullet point that ComplexRational added above and rsjaffe re-posted in agreement. Add another +1 from me, as it is one of my primary concerns which I mentioned when beginning this discussion. CR wrapped it up nicely in a nutshell. It appears we have identified some of our most immediate concerns; therefore, I recommend that we craft an RfC and present it right here to community. Our focus should be on our most urgent concerns and proposed remedies but should be presented one at a time so that we don't overwhelm the community. I remain cautiously optimistic that most editors are aware of, and understand the issues we're facing, but it also appears that we have a substantial portion who do not, much less understand the reviewing process or why we should not allow unsourced articles into mainspace. Evidence of my concerns are demonstrated very clearly at VPP; in fact, there is a whole page of it. I recently commented here, and also commented earlier in that discussion as I alluded to in my initial post above. There are quite a few admins who have a much different view of NPP and unsourced articles, which puts me at a loss as to how we should deal with it, if at all. Perhaps it will require an ARCA case, I don't know. Let's just take it one step at a time, start with a well-crafted RfC, and hope for the best. Atsme 💬 📧 12:37, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
Reprinted here from recent comments in another place:
NPP has an atrocious backlog, some of which results from reverted redirects. [...] NPP is currently discussing how best to create some form of automation that would handle a significant portion of these issues, but it's not going to happen quickly. Furthermore, we do have issues with UPEs creating noncompliant articles and stubs, and new editors creating 2 sentence stubs that are unsourced. These problems are not shrinking, rather they are growing with advancements in technology as more people globally learn the benefits of a WP article. NPP reviewers are not here to create, expand, source, and fix articles for the creators of those articles – be they UPE or newbies. –Atsme
I am more concerned about UPEs and the problems they create, and equally as concerned about the fast pace of NPP reviewer burn-out. [...] I'm hard pressed to believe that poorly written, and/or unsourced articles add to the credibility of WP, or that we will ever run short of articles in mainspace. I'm also of the mind that it's actually in the best interest of the project to AfD, redirect or draftify poorly written, unsourced articles that fail the key elements of GNG, V, & NOR than to leave them in mainspace with tags that too few editors have time to address. The onus is on the article creator to properly prepare their article(s) for mainspace. For us to not enforce that aspect of AfC, we are rewarding the creators of bad articles by allowing those articles to remain. –Atsme
Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 02:33, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
@ Rsjaffe:'s idea sounds like a way to easily implement @ Rosguill:'s idea. We should start discussing, solidifying and agreeing on such ideas instead of letting them just disappear into the talk page archives. My idea would be write up a tidied up version of the Rosguill/DarkSlateGrey with "The following is considered to be a common and acceptable practice at NPP:" Should we work on this? North8000 ( talk) 19:08, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
The article about an album In Amber has not been pratrolled yet after three days. It is already seen 300 times a day. Could anyone patrol it as for now, one doesn't still find the article on a google research with the words "In Amber album Hercules and Love Affair wikipedia". Carliertwo ( talk) 18:02, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
See Messaging the creator. Whether optional or not, does anyone know why the message feature has been removed entirely? Have I missed something? Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 10:26, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Please see my response at Village Pump relative to WP:OR footnote (a). Kudz - your thoughts, please? I asked Joe if he could provide a link to that community discussion. I think it's very important for NPP & AfC participants to provide input here in this discussion. Atsme 💬 📧 14:59, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
Blocked for spamming and sockpuppetry per Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Mostly shoaib. Neil Patel (digital marketer) is a very suspicious accept (see history at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Neil Patel (digital marketer)). Reviews should be examined for corruption. MER-C 08:49, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Well, it's part of the system that unsuitable articles get into mainspace and then weeded out by NPP, so it's no mystery how they got into mainspace. The problem is that NPP job has gotten too difficult, painful and time consuming. On the face of it the big problem is the lobsided math dictated by wp:before. (30 NPP's are supposed to be doing the source searching instead of the zillion article creators). I think more recently compounded by the large influx of articles where the potential sources are not in English where the search gets 10 times more time intensive/consuming. But if you set aside the possibility of changing wp:before, we can easily do a big part of the fix by saying that the NPP routine is that articles which don't satisfy an SNG and don't have GNG-establishing sourcing in them will be moved to draft space so that sourcing to satisfy can be added if it exists. North8000 ( talk) 16:20, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
One user, Littlefriendlyghost, is on a BLP creation rampage. Today alone they created 5 new biographies and a total of 8 since the 16th. Couple of things cause some concern, with one mitigating factor.
Concern that this is an UPE is that there isn't any theme or nexus that would pique the interest of a random editor in all the people being portrayed. The editor has 17 live edits, 8 of which are page creations. Also, one page created was deleted under G11 and A7 (advertising and no indication of significance).
Mitigating factor is that the editor, on their user page, essentially states that this is a new user id because they lost their credentials to their former id. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 23:45, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Conduct in deletion-related editing
I am wondering whether NPP (and AfC to a lesser extent) collectively should be a party to this or at least some statement should be submitted about NPPs concerns, since we have several active discussions on this page revolving around the issues of delete/draft/noindex. Slywriter ( talk) 13:46, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
WP:ANI#Recent influx of problematic articles on Arabian language novels may be of interest to the people here (and vice versa, the input from people from here may be of interest to the people at ANI ;-) ). Fram ( talk) 13:34, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
Is there a way to disable the page curation toolbar? I am experiencing a typing lag when editing Wikipedia that first manifested approximately around the same time I received the new page patroller privilege. Schierbecker ( talk) 07:35, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
Mostly an observation, but look at these two examples: Draft:Madhvi Subrahmanian, and 5 potential biographies in draft. The following category is interesting: Category:Created_via_preloaddraft – they appear to be worthy articles/biographies in main space. I randomly read a few, and picked this one as an example, but then I'm a bit of a history buff, and tend to consider much of history notable. Atsme 💬 📧 15:24, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
Hola. So I've been coming across a number of new articles like this one in the feed from one editor, who is creating one-line articles with three sources from foreign language wikis and tagging the newly created article with the foreign language sources tag!!! This strikes me as mildly egregious - bagging article creation (undoubtedly the name of the game) and then leaving other editors to turn it into a halfway decent article. I've left a message on their talk asking them to perhaps consider, but is there anything else we can do? We're looking at a large number of poor one-line articles being created as a result... Best Alexandermcnabb ( talk) 14:23, 23 June 2022 (UTC)