This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 45 | ← | Archive 47 | Archive 48 | Archive 49 | Archive 50 | Archive 51 |
For some reason, every time i check the "talk" page of some article i always see that it was nominated for deletion. Why you want to remove 75% of your articles? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.62.3.197 ( talk) 18:28, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
The text reads: "Deletion should not be used for archiving a page. The developers have indicated that the deleted pages can be cleared or removed from the database at any time." based on a comment by Brian Vibber in 2007. I dont think this is actually the current practice, nor has it been for many years now. DGG ( talk ) 03:27, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
I suggest adding an extra item to WP:DEL-REASON:
The policy Wikipedia:Paid-contribution disclosure and the relevant WMF terms of use impose strict disclosure requirements on paid editing, including disclosing the employer, client, and affiliation for every paid editing contribution. However, in practice the policy doesn't have real teeth in terms of enforcement. Paid editing has become a widespread phenomenon and many paid articles are created by SPAs, that create a single comissioned article and then disappear. Often they make no disclosures or only partial paid editing disclosures. Such editors would not be significantly deterred by post factum blocking. I think that at least in the cases where a partial disclosure has occurred, we should be able to delete the article, via AfD, after it has been created in mainspace. Nsk92 ( talk) 22:49, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
Information about companies and products must be written in an objective and unbiased style, free of puffery. So, we end up with, either through the work of the more sophisticated spammers, or via WP:BOGOF volunteers, well written spam. But it's still spam. The goal of the spammers is to get articles written for their paid clients, for SEO and/or general vanity/PR purposes. This leads to selection bias, where our content is preferentially enriched with articles about subjects who are willing to pay. We are essentially turned into a vanity press. We forbid the use of vanity presses as sources, why should we be willing to turn ourselves into one?
As it stands, the economic cost-benefit analysis to spammers is clear. If you fail to disclose, it eliminates the anti-spam bias many reviewers have. That's the benefit. I imagine some clients prefer disclosure not be made, to give the article a greater sense of veritas. The cost is zero. The worst that happens is you get caught and are forced to disclose. Being blocked is meaningless (and cost-free), since most spammers create throw-away accounts for each job.
If I was somebody making a living writing wikispam, I probably wouldn't disclose, given the current playing field. The threat of deletion is our big stick to get them to do so. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:07, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
The current wording of WP:ATD-R is:
If redirection will not leave an unsuitable trailing redirect, deletion is not required; any user can boldly blank the page and redirect it to another. If the change is disputed, an attempt should be made to reach a consensus before restoring the redirect. Suitable venues for seeking a consensus if a redirection is challenged include the article's talk page, Wikipedia:Articles for Deletion, and Wikipedia:Requests for Comment.
A few observations/suggestions:
In light of the above, I'm proposing the following text for this section:
A page can be blanked and redirected if there is a suitable page to redirect to, and if the resulting redirect is not inappropriate. If the change is disputed, an attempt should be made to reach a consensus before restoring the redirect. Suitable venues for seeking a consensus if a redirection is challenged include the article's talk page and Wikipedia:Articles for Deletion.
Wikipedia:Deletion policy#Archiving is a brief section with the following content:
Deletion should not be used for archiving a page. The developers have indicated that the deleted pages can be cleared or removed from the database at any time.
The first sentence is alright, but the second one could raise some eyebrows. I've asked about it at the village pump, and from the two responses given there I'm left with the impression it is not particularly germane any more. I'm proposing that the second sentence be removed, along with the shortcut, so that the section would look like this:
Deletion should not be used for archiving a page.
– Uanfala (talk) 22:27, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Wikipedia:Deletion policy has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I request the deletion of my edits from wikipedia and delete my ip address account on here 71.241.214.63 ( talk) 18:55, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
I believe the deletion policy should be clearer on a particular point. If a person became notable as a child, are now a relatively unknown, non-public figure, and as an adult request deletion, it should happen (given consensus, of course). However, an important part of this is that the now adult should not have to become an editor to do so, and if they want to remain anonymous, they should be able to do so. Privacy is a human right, and we should not make the subject surrender it now, because someone made a decision for them as a child.
If there is something of a consensus on this, Ill go ahead and draw up an actual edit we can discuss. Rklahn ( talk) 23:44, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
Draft:Adith Saji has as its body:
content redacted
It is cited only to the subject's own website.
It has the proverbial snowball's chance of being published. But I can't PROD it, and it doesn't seem to meet CSD. How can it be got rid of, in order that it wastes no further editor time? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:18, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
Hi, I've recently listed the article Album of the Year (website) for requested deletion. Although my original edit contained a fairly detailed explanation of my concerns, the text did not come through with the addition, for some reason. I've since added my reasoning again but this has resulted in the text appearing in triplicate – at least from what I'm seeing on screen. If anyone knows how to fix this error, or can suggest another page to visit, I'd be much obliged; totally inexperienced with this procedure and the template(s) ... Many thanks, JG66 ( talk) 13:28, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
Primefac, a rule of thumb: if someone goes to the trouble to indicate prose is unclear, it's probably unclear. And they might not be able to articulate exactly why it is unclear because, well, it is unclear and incomprehensible to them. I had to draw a flow/logic chart to try to grok that paragraph and couldn't. In the sentence "where the subject has requested deletion and there is no rough consensus" it's reasonable to read that as "no rough consensus to delete." If it means either way, you could edit in either way (instead of reverting) and specify whether it's conjunctive or disjunctive, but it still doesn't make sense to me. Additionally, it has the typical problems of passivity (it's not clear who is "closing" and/or deleting) and jargon ("PROD").
If you can clearly specify it here, I'll help with the prose (once I understand what is being said). Or, if you want to specify cases, that'll work too. - Reagle ( talk) 14:01, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
no clear consensus to keep" because of the three options (keep, delete, or no consensus) only "keep" would result in the article being kept (a "no consensus" in this case would default to delete if the subject has requested it). Primefac ( talk) 02:56, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
Although this section provides a link to the full WP:BLPPROD policy, the wording given here fails to make it clear that only completely unsourced BLPs are eligible for the tag, and can give the false impression that it can apply to any BLP without a reliable source. How should this be addressed? I'm not sure that I ought to go boldly editing a policy like this, even though it's contradictory. Adam9007 ( talk) 03:39, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
TemplateːSundanese-stub If you do not accept page deletion, please do it better. Two edtors were so helpful to restore the trash. Xx236 ( talk) 13:44, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Bot requests § Restoring redirects to recreated pages. {{u| Sdkb}} talk 20:02, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
I recently found a stub I had written on the semiconductor industry had been removed and redirected to a page on orthodontia. The checkin note claimed this was due to it being "unsourced pr gibberish". When I pointed out my concerns, another editor noted that B&R is perfectly acceptable and that there is no need to inform anyone of this action.
It's that last bit that I am here to discuss. "unsourced pr gibberish" is exactly the sort of thing we created PROD and CSD to address. This is intended to be light-weight process but still give the involved editors a chance to protest or correct any noted problems and the wider community a chance to comment on the validity of the action. I believe this duty-to-inform is a core concept in deletion policy as a whole.
In the case of B&R, the end result as seen by the content editor is the same; their content disappears. It might be uncontroversial, like two pages being substantially the same. But this is not what I am seeing in these examples. It appears we are giving editors an "out" from the policies we enshrine: to avoid "more bureaucratic actions", one simply uses B&R instead of PROD and the content disappears without telling anyone.
At a minimum, I believe the language here and on the redirect page should clearly state that B&R should be used in uncontroversial cases, where the target of the redir is substantially the same topic. One should not use B&R when the topic of the R is unrelated.
I believe the language should also clearly state that if the problem is with the content, like "unsourced pr gibberish", then that is a matter for PROD or AfD, not B&R. We have two different systems because they are solving two different problems.
Beyond that, I see no reason why we should not have a duty-to-inform in the case of B&R. Is it really too much to ask to place a note on the editor's talk page?
Maury Markowitz ( talk) 14:12, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
The first sentence of the section on incubation is really awkward to read since it has so many clauses and 4 commas, and I don't see why we need the namespace on the drafts link. I propose changing
If recently created, articles that have potential, but that do not yet meet Wikipedia's quality standards, may be moved to the Wikipedia:Drafts namespace, where they may continue to be collaboratively edited before either "graduating" to mainspace or ultimately being deleted.
to
Recently created articles that have potential, but that do not yet meet Wikipedia's quality standards, may be moved to the draft namespace, where they can continue to be collaboratively edited before either "graduating" to mainspace or ultimately being deleted.
It's a minor change, but I think it's more readable. 192.76.8.74 ( talk) 18:01, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I don’t know what the answer is to this question is, so we’ll make it. 98.22.242.247 ( talk) 23:17, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
Note: BLP articles may still be nominated for standard PROD if they do not meet BLPPROD criteria, or even if an article has previously been flagged for BLPPROD and declined.The same is true in reverse—a declined standard PROD does not prevent BLPPROD. BLPPROD is a separate process from standard PROD, with different criteria and rules, so having been nominated for one does not affect the other at all. Seraphimblade Talk to me 23:23, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
An article that was well-referenced and heavily reviewed was deleted after a bunch of SPA accounts wrote an Afd based upon the 2010 Afd that had been withdrawn when it was clear the subject was notable many times over. The article has had an extremely high level of COI and UPE activity. It's now been recreated in a whitewashed form by a new SPA.
Can the old article be undeleted so good faith examinations of the situation can be done? Should a SPI be done against all the recent SPAs? -- Hipal ( talk) 17:18, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
Yes, I'm looking to bolster the deletion policy, if this Naveen Jain situation is at all indicative of current problems. Perhaps it isn't, even though similar problems have been going on for a long time, as the Orangemoody case demonstrates.
Given the volunteer nature of this Wikipedia, we should help editors working to improve the encyclopedia, and make it difficult for editors to undo quality work. Because of Wikipedia's success, there are sometimes very strong financial incentives for editors to change or undo quality volunteer work, and our volunteers can easily be overwhelmed by concerted efforts. The Naveen Jain article has been a long-running example of such concerted efforts. -- Hipal ( talk) 17:10, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
I expect there have been past discussions to bolster AfD previously. I hope others will point them out, and I'll start looking for them. I'd hoped that the large-scale UPE cases, like Orangemoody, would have had more impact on our deletion processes. -- Hipal ( talk) 17:11, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
Is there a gadget that makes mass AfDs simpler (if I want to nominate several very similar articles at once)? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:47, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
Do not edit war on a policy page. Please come use the talk page to come to a consensus as to what the hatnote should read, FAdesdae378 & Praxidicae. Protonk ( talk) 21:24, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
In a 'normal' merge process, that does not come about in a deletion discussion, we are told ( WP:Merge), " No permission or discussion is needed if you think the merge is uncontroversial; just do it (but it might get reverted). Otherwise, the merge should be first proposed and discussed, as detailed below." When a merger arises in an AfD discussion,it is, by definition controversial: at a minimum, one person has thought an article should exist in its own right to the extent that they have created it, and one has thought the content is unworthy of inclusion in Wikipedia with sufficient determination to create a deletion process.
In which case, why does the process ignore an important part of the WP:MERGE procedure, ie notifcation to the target page. It seems quite unreasonable for editors who have had no involvement in, and may have never even read, article [[Foo]] to determine that information in article [[Bar]] should be included in it, with no regard to whether that is proportionate in [[Foo]]. It may well be that the treatment of Bar within the Foo article is already at a level of detail which is proportionate and has been reached by consensus.
At present, the only suggestion of talk at the target is in the templates Afd-merge to and Afd-merge from, which only appear after the decision for close as merge has been made. Thus a page gets an out of the blue message mandating change to it with no inclusion in prior discussion: people with no interest in a page issuing instructions about its content.
I wonder, therefore, whether there should not be an expectation (I would prefer a requirement) that proposal of merge as an alternative in a deletion discussion is accompanied by posting a template similar to Merge from (maybe Merge-from-afd), with direction to the deletion discussion. I would propose further that an AfD should not be closed as a merge unless the notification has been posted to the target for at least half of the time since merge was first proposed.
This would avoid a particularly egregious form of forked discussion, a breach of the expectations of normal merge procedure, and a more constructive discussion about whether merger is appropriate. I suspect that it is very common that those proposing or supporting merger never visit the target's talk page to argue for what it is they thought was worth preserving and iincorporating. It would also make the merge decision stronger, as there will be editors at the target page invested in the inclusion of information from the article and who have been party to the discussion that gave consensus for that change, rather than the merger instruction reaching a page unexpectedly and where there is noone interested in making that inclusion or believing that it is appropriate.
I see this as testing the waters before a formal proposal: if similar has been proposed and discussed before, it would be good to be directed to it (I had a quick search of the talk archive with the search term 'merge' and saw nothing).
Thoughts? Kevin McE ( talk) 12:40, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
The Bruce Faulconer article and its deletion were the subject of an article by Ted Gioia, "How a Prominent Composer Lost His Wikipedia Page—and Got Entangled in Kafkaesque Nightmare Trying to Get it Back: Bruce Faulconer deserves better, but the system seems rigged against him."
"What justification was given for its removal? When a troll demanded that he have an entry in the Grove Dictionary of Music (run by Oxford University Press), you begin to understand the biases they hold.
I can say this with some authority, because I’ve been a Grove contributor, and have published 8 music books with Oxford University Press—I love these institutions, but they are not authoritative guides for new and alternative media such as anime soundtracks. Wikipedia should know better.
And, of course, they do know better. Thousands of prominent musicians have Wikipedia entries without getting into Grove."
...
"I’d love to rectify this, but I can’t find any way of adding citations to a deleted article. I think this is called a Catch-22.
Which leads to an even bigger problem: There’s no fair and transparent appeal process at Wikipedia.
When I tried to find one, it took hours of fruitless inquiry. Many people told me that there was no process, and had painful stories to back up their claim. But, finally, I was directed to a page with instructions on the computer code templates that must be used when dealing with deleted pages.
I wish Kafka were alive to see this.
...
"I raise this not just to get fair treatment for one composer, but also because this situation is emblematic of a systemic failing among older web platforms. Websites that were launched with the goal of serving users have gradually turned into petty fiefdoms. Operations that were once open-sourced and community minded, become inside jobs and close-minded. There’s no accountability to anyone outside the system, and the appeal process is deliberately made opaque and unresponsive to complaints."
— AjaxSmack 20:43, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
This is has come up on occasion during NPP and I'm not 100% sure of the procedure. Basically, an article is taken to AfD, and the consensus is draftify. The closing admin moves the article to draftspace and deletes the resulting redirect as per R2. So far, so good. But then the original editor re-creates the identical article and makes no changes to the draft.
What is to be done with the newly re-created article?
So I'm actually at a loss of what to do in these situations. Fortunately, it doesn't come up too often. But it does come up on occasions, resulting in a smorgasbord of CSD tags, PROD tags, and Notability tags, with no one knowing exactly what the right procedure is. Singularity42 ( talk) 17:07, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
Recently i had made a wikipedia page about one of melbournes major bus routes. However it got subjected to deletion due to lack of secondary sources, during this time i thought all I had to do to keep the page is to add more reliable sources however a few people thought that during this time it would be a good idea to justify the dleletion due to "low importance" however I was able to find other wikipedia pages dedicated to bus routes that were also considerd low important yet they weren't subjected to the same claims that my page was. I am wondering whether low imporant is a reason that a wikipedia page should be deleted. NotOrrio ( talk) 06:26, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 45 | ← | Archive 47 | Archive 48 | Archive 49 | Archive 50 | Archive 51 |
For some reason, every time i check the "talk" page of some article i always see that it was nominated for deletion. Why you want to remove 75% of your articles? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.62.3.197 ( talk) 18:28, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
The text reads: "Deletion should not be used for archiving a page. The developers have indicated that the deleted pages can be cleared or removed from the database at any time." based on a comment by Brian Vibber in 2007. I dont think this is actually the current practice, nor has it been for many years now. DGG ( talk ) 03:27, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
I suggest adding an extra item to WP:DEL-REASON:
The policy Wikipedia:Paid-contribution disclosure and the relevant WMF terms of use impose strict disclosure requirements on paid editing, including disclosing the employer, client, and affiliation for every paid editing contribution. However, in practice the policy doesn't have real teeth in terms of enforcement. Paid editing has become a widespread phenomenon and many paid articles are created by SPAs, that create a single comissioned article and then disappear. Often they make no disclosures or only partial paid editing disclosures. Such editors would not be significantly deterred by post factum blocking. I think that at least in the cases where a partial disclosure has occurred, we should be able to delete the article, via AfD, after it has been created in mainspace. Nsk92 ( talk) 22:49, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
Information about companies and products must be written in an objective and unbiased style, free of puffery. So, we end up with, either through the work of the more sophisticated spammers, or via WP:BOGOF volunteers, well written spam. But it's still spam. The goal of the spammers is to get articles written for their paid clients, for SEO and/or general vanity/PR purposes. This leads to selection bias, where our content is preferentially enriched with articles about subjects who are willing to pay. We are essentially turned into a vanity press. We forbid the use of vanity presses as sources, why should we be willing to turn ourselves into one?
As it stands, the economic cost-benefit analysis to spammers is clear. If you fail to disclose, it eliminates the anti-spam bias many reviewers have. That's the benefit. I imagine some clients prefer disclosure not be made, to give the article a greater sense of veritas. The cost is zero. The worst that happens is you get caught and are forced to disclose. Being blocked is meaningless (and cost-free), since most spammers create throw-away accounts for each job.
If I was somebody making a living writing wikispam, I probably wouldn't disclose, given the current playing field. The threat of deletion is our big stick to get them to do so. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:07, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
The current wording of WP:ATD-R is:
If redirection will not leave an unsuitable trailing redirect, deletion is not required; any user can boldly blank the page and redirect it to another. If the change is disputed, an attempt should be made to reach a consensus before restoring the redirect. Suitable venues for seeking a consensus if a redirection is challenged include the article's talk page, Wikipedia:Articles for Deletion, and Wikipedia:Requests for Comment.
A few observations/suggestions:
In light of the above, I'm proposing the following text for this section:
A page can be blanked and redirected if there is a suitable page to redirect to, and if the resulting redirect is not inappropriate. If the change is disputed, an attempt should be made to reach a consensus before restoring the redirect. Suitable venues for seeking a consensus if a redirection is challenged include the article's talk page and Wikipedia:Articles for Deletion.
Wikipedia:Deletion policy#Archiving is a brief section with the following content:
Deletion should not be used for archiving a page. The developers have indicated that the deleted pages can be cleared or removed from the database at any time.
The first sentence is alright, but the second one could raise some eyebrows. I've asked about it at the village pump, and from the two responses given there I'm left with the impression it is not particularly germane any more. I'm proposing that the second sentence be removed, along with the shortcut, so that the section would look like this:
Deletion should not be used for archiving a page.
– Uanfala (talk) 22:27, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Wikipedia:Deletion policy has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I request the deletion of my edits from wikipedia and delete my ip address account on here 71.241.214.63 ( talk) 18:55, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
I believe the deletion policy should be clearer on a particular point. If a person became notable as a child, are now a relatively unknown, non-public figure, and as an adult request deletion, it should happen (given consensus, of course). However, an important part of this is that the now adult should not have to become an editor to do so, and if they want to remain anonymous, they should be able to do so. Privacy is a human right, and we should not make the subject surrender it now, because someone made a decision for them as a child.
If there is something of a consensus on this, Ill go ahead and draw up an actual edit we can discuss. Rklahn ( talk) 23:44, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
Draft:Adith Saji has as its body:
content redacted
It is cited only to the subject's own website.
It has the proverbial snowball's chance of being published. But I can't PROD it, and it doesn't seem to meet CSD. How can it be got rid of, in order that it wastes no further editor time? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:18, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
Hi, I've recently listed the article Album of the Year (website) for requested deletion. Although my original edit contained a fairly detailed explanation of my concerns, the text did not come through with the addition, for some reason. I've since added my reasoning again but this has resulted in the text appearing in triplicate – at least from what I'm seeing on screen. If anyone knows how to fix this error, or can suggest another page to visit, I'd be much obliged; totally inexperienced with this procedure and the template(s) ... Many thanks, JG66 ( talk) 13:28, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
Primefac, a rule of thumb: if someone goes to the trouble to indicate prose is unclear, it's probably unclear. And they might not be able to articulate exactly why it is unclear because, well, it is unclear and incomprehensible to them. I had to draw a flow/logic chart to try to grok that paragraph and couldn't. In the sentence "where the subject has requested deletion and there is no rough consensus" it's reasonable to read that as "no rough consensus to delete." If it means either way, you could edit in either way (instead of reverting) and specify whether it's conjunctive or disjunctive, but it still doesn't make sense to me. Additionally, it has the typical problems of passivity (it's not clear who is "closing" and/or deleting) and jargon ("PROD").
If you can clearly specify it here, I'll help with the prose (once I understand what is being said). Or, if you want to specify cases, that'll work too. - Reagle ( talk) 14:01, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
no clear consensus to keep" because of the three options (keep, delete, or no consensus) only "keep" would result in the article being kept (a "no consensus" in this case would default to delete if the subject has requested it). Primefac ( talk) 02:56, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
Although this section provides a link to the full WP:BLPPROD policy, the wording given here fails to make it clear that only completely unsourced BLPs are eligible for the tag, and can give the false impression that it can apply to any BLP without a reliable source. How should this be addressed? I'm not sure that I ought to go boldly editing a policy like this, even though it's contradictory. Adam9007 ( talk) 03:39, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
TemplateːSundanese-stub If you do not accept page deletion, please do it better. Two edtors were so helpful to restore the trash. Xx236 ( talk) 13:44, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Bot requests § Restoring redirects to recreated pages. {{u| Sdkb}} talk 20:02, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
I recently found a stub I had written on the semiconductor industry had been removed and redirected to a page on orthodontia. The checkin note claimed this was due to it being "unsourced pr gibberish". When I pointed out my concerns, another editor noted that B&R is perfectly acceptable and that there is no need to inform anyone of this action.
It's that last bit that I am here to discuss. "unsourced pr gibberish" is exactly the sort of thing we created PROD and CSD to address. This is intended to be light-weight process but still give the involved editors a chance to protest or correct any noted problems and the wider community a chance to comment on the validity of the action. I believe this duty-to-inform is a core concept in deletion policy as a whole.
In the case of B&R, the end result as seen by the content editor is the same; their content disappears. It might be uncontroversial, like two pages being substantially the same. But this is not what I am seeing in these examples. It appears we are giving editors an "out" from the policies we enshrine: to avoid "more bureaucratic actions", one simply uses B&R instead of PROD and the content disappears without telling anyone.
At a minimum, I believe the language here and on the redirect page should clearly state that B&R should be used in uncontroversial cases, where the target of the redir is substantially the same topic. One should not use B&R when the topic of the R is unrelated.
I believe the language should also clearly state that if the problem is with the content, like "unsourced pr gibberish", then that is a matter for PROD or AfD, not B&R. We have two different systems because they are solving two different problems.
Beyond that, I see no reason why we should not have a duty-to-inform in the case of B&R. Is it really too much to ask to place a note on the editor's talk page?
Maury Markowitz ( talk) 14:12, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
The first sentence of the section on incubation is really awkward to read since it has so many clauses and 4 commas, and I don't see why we need the namespace on the drafts link. I propose changing
If recently created, articles that have potential, but that do not yet meet Wikipedia's quality standards, may be moved to the Wikipedia:Drafts namespace, where they may continue to be collaboratively edited before either "graduating" to mainspace or ultimately being deleted.
to
Recently created articles that have potential, but that do not yet meet Wikipedia's quality standards, may be moved to the draft namespace, where they can continue to be collaboratively edited before either "graduating" to mainspace or ultimately being deleted.
It's a minor change, but I think it's more readable. 192.76.8.74 ( talk) 18:01, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I don’t know what the answer is to this question is, so we’ll make it. 98.22.242.247 ( talk) 23:17, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
Note: BLP articles may still be nominated for standard PROD if they do not meet BLPPROD criteria, or even if an article has previously been flagged for BLPPROD and declined.The same is true in reverse—a declined standard PROD does not prevent BLPPROD. BLPPROD is a separate process from standard PROD, with different criteria and rules, so having been nominated for one does not affect the other at all. Seraphimblade Talk to me 23:23, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
An article that was well-referenced and heavily reviewed was deleted after a bunch of SPA accounts wrote an Afd based upon the 2010 Afd that had been withdrawn when it was clear the subject was notable many times over. The article has had an extremely high level of COI and UPE activity. It's now been recreated in a whitewashed form by a new SPA.
Can the old article be undeleted so good faith examinations of the situation can be done? Should a SPI be done against all the recent SPAs? -- Hipal ( talk) 17:18, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
Yes, I'm looking to bolster the deletion policy, if this Naveen Jain situation is at all indicative of current problems. Perhaps it isn't, even though similar problems have been going on for a long time, as the Orangemoody case demonstrates.
Given the volunteer nature of this Wikipedia, we should help editors working to improve the encyclopedia, and make it difficult for editors to undo quality work. Because of Wikipedia's success, there are sometimes very strong financial incentives for editors to change or undo quality volunteer work, and our volunteers can easily be overwhelmed by concerted efforts. The Naveen Jain article has been a long-running example of such concerted efforts. -- Hipal ( talk) 17:10, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
I expect there have been past discussions to bolster AfD previously. I hope others will point them out, and I'll start looking for them. I'd hoped that the large-scale UPE cases, like Orangemoody, would have had more impact on our deletion processes. -- Hipal ( talk) 17:11, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
Is there a gadget that makes mass AfDs simpler (if I want to nominate several very similar articles at once)? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:47, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
Do not edit war on a policy page. Please come use the talk page to come to a consensus as to what the hatnote should read, FAdesdae378 & Praxidicae. Protonk ( talk) 21:24, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
In a 'normal' merge process, that does not come about in a deletion discussion, we are told ( WP:Merge), " No permission or discussion is needed if you think the merge is uncontroversial; just do it (but it might get reverted). Otherwise, the merge should be first proposed and discussed, as detailed below." When a merger arises in an AfD discussion,it is, by definition controversial: at a minimum, one person has thought an article should exist in its own right to the extent that they have created it, and one has thought the content is unworthy of inclusion in Wikipedia with sufficient determination to create a deletion process.
In which case, why does the process ignore an important part of the WP:MERGE procedure, ie notifcation to the target page. It seems quite unreasonable for editors who have had no involvement in, and may have never even read, article [[Foo]] to determine that information in article [[Bar]] should be included in it, with no regard to whether that is proportionate in [[Foo]]. It may well be that the treatment of Bar within the Foo article is already at a level of detail which is proportionate and has been reached by consensus.
At present, the only suggestion of talk at the target is in the templates Afd-merge to and Afd-merge from, which only appear after the decision for close as merge has been made. Thus a page gets an out of the blue message mandating change to it with no inclusion in prior discussion: people with no interest in a page issuing instructions about its content.
I wonder, therefore, whether there should not be an expectation (I would prefer a requirement) that proposal of merge as an alternative in a deletion discussion is accompanied by posting a template similar to Merge from (maybe Merge-from-afd), with direction to the deletion discussion. I would propose further that an AfD should not be closed as a merge unless the notification has been posted to the target for at least half of the time since merge was first proposed.
This would avoid a particularly egregious form of forked discussion, a breach of the expectations of normal merge procedure, and a more constructive discussion about whether merger is appropriate. I suspect that it is very common that those proposing or supporting merger never visit the target's talk page to argue for what it is they thought was worth preserving and iincorporating. It would also make the merge decision stronger, as there will be editors at the target page invested in the inclusion of information from the article and who have been party to the discussion that gave consensus for that change, rather than the merger instruction reaching a page unexpectedly and where there is noone interested in making that inclusion or believing that it is appropriate.
I see this as testing the waters before a formal proposal: if similar has been proposed and discussed before, it would be good to be directed to it (I had a quick search of the talk archive with the search term 'merge' and saw nothing).
Thoughts? Kevin McE ( talk) 12:40, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
The Bruce Faulconer article and its deletion were the subject of an article by Ted Gioia, "How a Prominent Composer Lost His Wikipedia Page—and Got Entangled in Kafkaesque Nightmare Trying to Get it Back: Bruce Faulconer deserves better, but the system seems rigged against him."
"What justification was given for its removal? When a troll demanded that he have an entry in the Grove Dictionary of Music (run by Oxford University Press), you begin to understand the biases they hold.
I can say this with some authority, because I’ve been a Grove contributor, and have published 8 music books with Oxford University Press—I love these institutions, but they are not authoritative guides for new and alternative media such as anime soundtracks. Wikipedia should know better.
And, of course, they do know better. Thousands of prominent musicians have Wikipedia entries without getting into Grove."
...
"I’d love to rectify this, but I can’t find any way of adding citations to a deleted article. I think this is called a Catch-22.
Which leads to an even bigger problem: There’s no fair and transparent appeal process at Wikipedia.
When I tried to find one, it took hours of fruitless inquiry. Many people told me that there was no process, and had painful stories to back up their claim. But, finally, I was directed to a page with instructions on the computer code templates that must be used when dealing with deleted pages.
I wish Kafka were alive to see this.
...
"I raise this not just to get fair treatment for one composer, but also because this situation is emblematic of a systemic failing among older web platforms. Websites that were launched with the goal of serving users have gradually turned into petty fiefdoms. Operations that were once open-sourced and community minded, become inside jobs and close-minded. There’s no accountability to anyone outside the system, and the appeal process is deliberately made opaque and unresponsive to complaints."
— AjaxSmack 20:43, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
This is has come up on occasion during NPP and I'm not 100% sure of the procedure. Basically, an article is taken to AfD, and the consensus is draftify. The closing admin moves the article to draftspace and deletes the resulting redirect as per R2. So far, so good. But then the original editor re-creates the identical article and makes no changes to the draft.
What is to be done with the newly re-created article?
So I'm actually at a loss of what to do in these situations. Fortunately, it doesn't come up too often. But it does come up on occasions, resulting in a smorgasbord of CSD tags, PROD tags, and Notability tags, with no one knowing exactly what the right procedure is. Singularity42 ( talk) 17:07, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
Recently i had made a wikipedia page about one of melbournes major bus routes. However it got subjected to deletion due to lack of secondary sources, during this time i thought all I had to do to keep the page is to add more reliable sources however a few people thought that during this time it would be a good idea to justify the dleletion due to "low importance" however I was able to find other wikipedia pages dedicated to bus routes that were also considerd low important yet they weren't subjected to the same claims that my page was. I am wondering whether low imporant is a reason that a wikipedia page should be deleted. NotOrrio ( talk) 06:26, 21 October 2022 (UTC)