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A DYK for a company, currently on Main page, has ... that British manufacturer Karrimor's formidable reputation for ground-breaking outdoor pursuit equipment was a direct result of its location in Lancashire, and a CEO who was an avid climber and trekker? - I queried the use of formidable at Wikipedia_talk:Did_you_know#Prep_1 before the article ended up on the Main Page, and "formidable" was removed from the hook - I now see it is not only reinstated, but has gone live... this hardly seems NPOV and is actively promoting a company. Probably all a bit late now, since it must have been on Main Page for a good number of hours... Simon Burchell ( talk) 10:50, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
WP:AGF is a good idea. Here's another DYK.
Well, to be fair, two people did. Both were DYK reviewers. Both confirmed the hook as good to go on this specific point.
This does suggest a possible discussion about review of main page content that is NPOV/V/NOR accurately worded in a surprising tone, but the bad faith and lack of notice in this issue is staggeringly large. The matter would never have been an issue either, if those involved had done the right thing and notified or discussed. This has been here a week, unnotified. It's usual people are told if they or their work is being discussed. Since they didn't, it's unsurprising that the hook, and the 2 reviewers who concurred with the hook, went ahead.
Alternatively, it might have been easier to resolve before Main Page or any other place, if someone had bothered to notify or discuss, so their concerns could have been addressed. I would have readily put it on hold myself, unasked, if I'd been made aware of the concern.
Discussion has since been moved to W:AN ( Link). FT2 ( Talk | email) 23:46, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Currently has as paragraph 2 of the lead:
The source given is from ACORN: "Scott Harshbarger and Amy Crafts (2009-12-07). An Independent Governance Assessment of ACORN: The Path To Meaningful Reform" which does not actually make the claims as stated and this query is presented here to determine if this material properly follows WP:NPOV. Collect ( talk) 14:58, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
McCain has gone after the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now. And we've gone after him, for an ad accusing the group of "massive voter fraud" and for saying in the final presidential debate that ACORN is "now on the verge of maybe perpetrating one of the greatest frauds in voter history in this country, maybe destroying the fabric of democracy." Both claims are breathtakingly inaccurate. There's a huge difference between voter fraud and voter registration fraud.
Losing NY-23 candidate Doug Hoffman became the latest in an increasingly long line of conservative politicians to blame his problems on ACORN yesterday despite the complete lack of evidence the organization played any role in his defeat. [...] Belief in the ACORN conspiracy theory is even higher among GOP partisans than the birther one, which only 42% of Republicans expressed agreement with on our national survey in September. [...] The constant harping on ACORN by Republican politicians may sound nutso in some circles, but it certainly has hurt the organization's image...
[The video] was deemed by the Brooklyn District Attorney's office to be a "heavily edited" splice job, after a five-and-a-half-month probe. Sources told the Post that "many of the seemingly crime-encouraging answers were taken out of context so as to appear more sinister." No charges will be filed.
O’Keefe stated he was out to make a point and to damage ACORN and therefore did not act as a journalist objectively reporting a story. The video releases were heavily edited to feature only the worst or most inappropriate statements of the various ACORN employees and to omit some of the most salient statements by O’Keefe and Giles.
“The evidence illustrates,” Brown said, “that things are not always as partisan zealots portray them through highly selective editing of reality. Sometimes a fuller truth is found on the cutting room floor.” The original storm of publicity created by O’Keefe’s videotapes was instrumental in ACORN’s subsequent denunciation in Congress, a sudden tourniquet on its funding, and the organization’s eventual collapse.
The videos that have been released appear to have been edited, in some cases substantially, including the insertion of a substitute voiceover for significant portions of Mr. O’Keefe’s and Ms.Giles’s comments, which makes it difficult to determine the questions to which ACORN employees are responding.
Amazing! which were later found to be partially falsified and selectively edited,[9] by two conservative activists, James O'Keefe and Hannah Giles. makes no allegations of wrongdoing by specific living persons? And the videos were not about the "voter drive" but specifically about material which is not mentioned in the lead at all -- to wit promotion or condoning of illegal activities. Cheers -- now clean the article up - it has so many overreaching claims as to be risible. And this board is about "neutral point of view" which, I suggest, is heavily violated through the entire article.
Collect (
talk) 14:54, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
ACORN's voter registration drives, which it has conducted since the 1980s, has been frequently mischaracterized by supporters of Republican candidates "voter fraud". ACORN received significant negative publicity in the wake of the 2009 production and publication of videos, which were later found to be partially falsified and selectively edited,[9] by two conservative activists, James O'Keefe and Hannah Giles.
Shows a seque between the two claims which is not present in any sources. In fact, the two issues are entirely disparate. In addition the "frequently mischaracterized" is a statement not found in the sources -- which do not make that particular claim. And the mentioning of two living persons by name intrinsically requires that we obey WP:BLP even if an editor feels that saying someone "falsified" something is not "wrongdoing." Cheers - but that sort of claim beggars belief. Collect ( talk) 23:36, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
Page:
Séralini affair (
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There is an ongoing dispute on this page regarding the biased nature of the original article. The original article seems to have a specific negative angle with edits of this angle constantly being removed. With many reasons being used for deletions - many of which may be considered false.
The Talk section is particularly interesting with many points of view being shared but not many being taken into account.
A balanced article is all that is required. I personally have given up editing and reverting - and have taken to the 'talk' page to reach consensus before further edits. Hog1983 ( talk) 08:39, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
a) Scientific support for Seralini:
Reason for editing text will be to make it more balanced and saying that the Seralini study was both ‘supported’ and ‘criticized’ by scientists – I want consensus on this before edits are made: http://aspta.org.br/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/NK603-20may2013.pdf - Brazilian scientists supporting Seralini in official letter to Brazilian food regulatory body http://www.lemonde.fr/idees/article/2012/11/14/science-et-conscience_1790174_3232.html 140 scientists supporting Seralini’s study http://independentsciencenews.org/health/seralini-and-science-nk603-rat-study-roundup/ Open letter to support Seralini from worldwide scientists
b) Text in article: ‘Other long term studies, which were publicly funded, have uncovered some health issues.’ This is unbalanced as is shown on this directory of studies showing harm caused by GMOs: www.gmoevidence.com. I would like to remove this text. Group opinion please – not just editors of this page
‘Séralini had required that journalists sign a confidentiality agreement’ this was a method of study release that has been done by others – it was both supported and criticized in the press: www.gmoseralini.org.
c) All text about method of release being ‘only criticized’ should be removed if this is an unbiased article
d) The Sprauge-Dawley rat is used by Monsanto and all bio-tech industry in their experiments – so all reference to this as a problem should be removed: http://gmoseralini.org/criticism-sprague-dawley-rats-get-tumours-when-food-intake-is-unrestricted/
e)All references to media coverage should be balanced : there should not be a tone of only negative media coverage as the majority of media coverage was positive – please refer to directory of media coverage here: http://gmoseralini.org/category/media-coverage/
f) The argument that the new EFSA protocol does not mention the Seralini study is ridiculous – as it is 95% based on the protocol of the Seralini study – Just read both protocols to see: this is an article about this connection: http://gmoseralini.org/seralini-validated-by-new-efsa-guidelines-on-long-term-gmo-experiments/
g) GMOSeralini.org is not a Self-Published Source as quoted on this talk for reason for deletion of this source: http://gmoseralini.org/about-us/ - ‘Professor Gilles-Eric Séralini, his colleagues, and the organizations with which they are affiliated have no connection with the owners or editors of this website and bear no responsibility for its content.’ ‘The GMOSeralini website is owned and maintained by a group of concerned citizens and scientists.’ ‘This site has independent expert editors.’ Hog1983 ( talk) 08:51, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
Please note Talk:Lindsey Graham#Neutrality dispute--August 2, 2013, relating to how to summarize opinions of Graham's tenure in Congress. -- Arxiloxos ( talk) 19:58, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
Done Users on the page seem to be satisfied with a solution implemented. Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:16, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
Hi
This article seems to be very biased toward the tiger without evidence or in fact much zoological context. Numerous contributors on the talk page are either dismissed without thorough discussion or just ignored entirely if they do not share the pro-tiger bias.
In particular
1 - The page states that tigers usually kill lions when they meet in captivity, without citation, then lists several examples of this happening with citations. In reality there is no thorough study done comparing which animal kills the other more often and therefore no conclusive information about his, and the article should say so. Also there are many individual examples of either animal killing the other, and this should also be stated clearly with examples, if any, of both tiger and lions being dominant.
2- The page supplies 4 "expert opinions" favouring the tiger, none of which are actual zoologist, and a neutral fifth expert opinion. Once again, there are random and spurious, merely giving a false impression that most experts would favour the tiger. There are expert opinions that favour the lion, including an actual zoologist, but none are included, requests to have them included are simply denied.
3 - There is no discussion of the relative adaptations of the two cats, and the fcat that the male lion in particular has evolved in a climate of high conflict between each other and with other predators. This seems incredible since the size and the relative adaptations of the two animals are the only two relevant factors in comparing the animals. To leave in comment on size (assumedly because the tiger is bigger so this favours the tiger) while leaving out comment on the adaptations (assumedly because the lion has evolved in an environment where it fights more often and therefore will naturally be better adapted for fighting) is clearly another form of bias.
I would like to inform the editor of the offending page about this complaint as it says i should, but i don't know how to and can't seee the link here. Please advise as to how i can do this.
Thanks
NickPriceNZ ( talk) 12:08, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
Politically Incorrect (blog) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). There's a long running debate here as to whether Template:Islamophobia belongs on this article. My view is that it is clearly relevant to the article and thus belongs on it. The counter view seems to be that this template labels the PI blog and is simply wrong as we can't call the blog Islamaphobic. I'd like some independent comments on this issue. Dougweller ( talk) 15:58, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
The first and foremost question is this: what provisions do the guidelines make about the adding of templates? I would like to have a clear reference from Dougweller (or anybody else) on what basis the template should be added, so that we can start to have a meaningful discussion guided by criterias. Sentiment and gut-feeling alone, I am sorry, is simply not enough when it comes to such controversial and loaded 'scare templates' such as Islamophobia or Antisemitism.
Because the situation is there is in fact no general agreement in reliable sources as how to classify the blog. I tried to make this clear as it can be in the article. The opinions are divided and in no small part fall along political lines (see the article for sources): while the clear majority of liberal and left-wing media does indeed label the blog as "Islamophobic", some conservative outlets like the Gatestone Institute, FrontPage Magazine and American Thinker regard it as right-conservative website which exercises its freedom of speech against the demands of political correctness. And while the Bavarian branch of the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution does observe the Munich office, and only the Munich office, for Islamophobia, the other 15 Bundesland branches do not observe it. Most importantly, the national bureau in Berlin has repeatedly classified PI as - quote - "Islam critical" and not islamophobic. Since Islamophobia is a different subject in Wikipedia than criticism of Islam, it follows that we cannot use its template for articles which fall outside its scope.
As for the argument that the founder's words "Phobia is fear, and I'm afraid of Islam" are to be understood as evidence for the blog's Islamophobia, this does not stand up to scrutiny for two reasons. First, Wikipedia generally does not view self-classifications as authoritative or binding, but makes a point of relying on reliable, third-party sources. The founder himself, however, is first-party, not third-party. Secondly, the 'Islamophobia' the founder speaks of is clearly a different beast than the negatively-loaded Islamophobia as defined in the WP article. He makes it clear he means really fear of Islam, whereas the WP article defines the subject quite differently as (irrational) animosity, antipathy or hostility towards Islam. This is obviously not the same thing and we can't throw these things indiscriminately together.
Thus, there is no clear consensus either way. Adding the Islamophobia template against the substantial amount of dissenting reliable sources would be too much into POV lands and negative labelling. Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 19:14, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
Before the discussion deviates even further from the original subject, I would like to repeat my initial question: on what basis in the WP guidelines do those who want to add the template act? Please cite the relevant guideline which says that a template can be added even when there clearly exists no consensus in reliable sources. Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 12:48, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
Ok, so the blog self-identifies as islamophobic, we have several reliable sources saying it is slamophobic and the only objection is that not all sources say it is islamophobic. Why is this even up for debate? // Liftarn ( talk)
The template itself is a bad idea ( WP:LABEL) to begin with. Remove it. Athenean ( talk) 21:10, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Please have a look at Talk:Asaram_Bapu#Removed_sections, which is most probably going to become an edit war now. Tito☸ Dutta 17:21, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
Requesting feedback on scope at Talk:Gospel of the Hebrews#Scope of this article. Thanks. Ignocrates ( talk) 16:45, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
This article does not cite a single reliable news source, and appears to be a vanity article written by Mr. Casscone himself. There's plenty of biographical information to be found, with absolutely no verifiability, and the article seems to conflict with Wikipedia's NPOV policy. Should be a candidate for deletion, if these issues cannot be addressed, and Mr. Cascone's Silent Records page also has zero citations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.16.3.12 ( talk) 23:18, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
In the
Ivan Massow article,
User:Welsh-marches has recently added material which is always critical of the article subject, and seems to me to be worded in such a way so as to emphasize the negative. I am not disagreeing that some of this information should be added to the article, my concern is the way it is being presented. I have tried to word the information in a way which seems to me to be more neutral, though Welsh-marches doesn't see it that way. I do not have sufficient knowledge of the subject (financial services) to feel confident of discussing details on the talk page, so have come here. The particular wording which I seek comment on at the moment is in
this edit.
For background, please note the discussion with a COI editor which took place
here (and all sections beneath it) in 2012, in which myself and other editors, arrayed against a previous employee of Massow (
User:Lisa Thorne), were trying (and ultimately succeeding) to prevent the article being too positive about it's subject. In my view Welsh-marches may possibly have a conflict of interest the other way; their editing history is primarily in the subject of financial services, and on 11th July 2012 they made a number of edits to this article which, in the main, tended to emphasize negative information about the article subject (e.g. see
this edit). If I've brought this to the wrong noticeboard, can someone advise a better one (
COIN?). Thanks.
PaleCloudedWhite (
talk) 00:00, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
This article seems to be very judgemental of "kill-shelters" and uses a lot of emotive language like "less grim." I don't feel qualified to write a more balanced article and wouldn't know where to begin. There is no mention of the fact that kill shelters usually have a policy of not turning away any animals. No-kill shelters have limited intakes, the overflow go to kill shelters. 105.224.143.112 ( talk) 09:24, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
I found Template:Violence against Muslims which links
Don't these all violate WP:NPOV? As they look like all just lists of conflicts between Muslims and other religious groups. Look like Wikipedia:Coatrack articles. Would having articles Persecution of religious group xyz then listing all conflicts they've been in be neutral?-- Loomspicker ( talk) 22:07, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
There seems to be NPOV problem in 2002 Gujarat violence. I find the whole article to have departed from NPOV, with Books beings used wherever it suits the POV and Newspaper articles to be used wherever it suits the POV. For example, the opening paragraph of the article states that The attack on 27 February 2002 on a train, thought by most to have been carried out by Muslims, and which caused the deaths of 58 people . But the sources mentioned there did mention that it was direct attack by Muslims. So, after my edit got reverted twice [5], I took it to the Talk page [6]. There, I produced various sources that directly says carried out by Muslims, rather than thought to be carried out by Muslims. However, on the talk page, I could find fellow editors rejecting all the sources I gave. Not alone this example, the whole article seemed to be have done with non-NPOV and looks like a provocative article, rather than informative one. Please discuss on the NPOV status of the article and give your valuable suggestions! - Vatsan34 ( talk) 16:08, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
Genetically modified food controversies. IMHO this article is not NPOV according to its title. There is material in the article that is not controversial that should be removed as promotional 'fluff' for one side of the controversy. There is notable RS material that should be added that isn't. When either are done then the edits are reverted without adequate discussion using what appears to be WP:GANG and WP:OWN. I could provide diffs but I will let the regulars here judge by looking at the article, history, and talk pages.-- Canoe1967 ( talk) 21:31, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
I feel this issue extends beyond just the one article. I tried to add Taco Bell GMO recall material to the controversies article and it was reverted. I then created it as a stand alone article as a well sourced and notable event. At present others are seeking consensus for a move to StarLink corn recall. I suspect this is a preliminary move to eventually redirect it to Genetically modified maize and remove much of the material along the way. There are many editors that seem to want this incident either swept under the rug or buried deep in other articles. The same happened with Roundup (herbicide). At present some editors are trying to unmerge it back to a standalone article because much of the material was unilaterally removed during the merge by one editor. See Talk:Roundup_(herbicide)#RfC:_Un-merge_from_Glyphosate.3F for details. A similar merge and material removal was also done with Organic farming methods. That merge had zero discussion, let alone consensus. Our goal should be to expand and split material for our readers and not to collapse and delete it.-- Canoe1967 ( talk) 19:06, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
I started editing the Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest policy page recently. I noticed systemic bias towards Public Relations editing. As I edit, I have faced reversions simply because they disagree, and they have not entertained consensus building discussion on talk. Since PR firms have the ability to recruit more editors and simply outnumber disagreeable opinions, the argumentation process of consensus building is important to ensure we're not gravitating towards vote counts.
So, some issues I am seeing on the Wikipedia policy page on COI is that oped pieces that give tailored advise to those editing in Corporate Communications/Public Relations capacity from and written in a way that resonates with them. Referencing to its PR trade organizations like PRSA and Further Readings material that tailor to "edit for consideration" / vested interest group are also quite questionable.
Can I get some input on this? Cantaloupe2 ( talk) 13:23, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
The article Usage share of web browsers has a summary section which cites current statistics from a number of statistics counters measuring page impressions and/or unique visitors to websites on the Internet. Recently editor user:Complainer raised concerns about one of the sources ( Net Applications) and deleted the source from the table. The argument for deleting was this "Netapplications statistics do run against common sense, with MSIE market shares that are double those of any other independent source, including wikipedia itself (and I would liek to add "and my own tracker", but will abstain); these guys [1] make a good argument of how and why they do it. I personally think their presence in the article is embarrassing, to say the least, and am about to remove them. If anybody sees it fit to reinstate them, feel free". I ( user:Useerup) disagreed and reinstated the statistics, noting that "Reverted. Netapplications is *the* most cited source in reliable sources (3rd party) and thus *the* most notable source". The statistics was promptly deleted again and we inched preciously close to an edit war.
User user:Complainer wants to remove the statistics because he/she has concerns about the quality/potential bias. I ( user:Useerup) don't believe that suppressing the most often cited statistics (sample list provided in the discussion) on the subject would be a fair and neutral representation of the topic.
The discussion on the talk page here: Talk:Usage share of web browsers#Source for faking. Please join the discussion with your point of view. Thanks. Useerup ( talk) 21:59, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
Page:
Thomas Jefferson (
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Text: "Overseers were instructed to provide wool for knitting to any negro woman that wanted it".[Pierson, Hamilton W.,(1862). JEFFERSON AT MONTICELLO. THE PRIVATE LIFE OF THOMAS JEFFERSON (1862) p. 63][
[7]
The source is a direct quote from Jefferson's instructions to his foreman, where he wrote, "Give wool to my negro women who desire it, as well those with Mr. Craven as others, but particularly to the house women here." [8]
This sentence was added to the section about how Jefferson treated his slaves. I object to using it because it implies a positive treatment, yet no explanation is provided in the source about why Jefferson wrote this. It could be that his slaves were allowed to earn income by making and selling clothing or it could be that he refused to buy clothing for his slaves and forced them to make their own. Also, I find the use of the term "negro woman" to be objectionable, even if "my negro women" appeared in the original text.
TFD ( talk) 18:45, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
This article is written entirely from very biased and VERY RACIST viewpoint, could this please be looked into. 219.90.242.41 ( talk) 06:57, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
An unregistered user pointed out several potential neutrality/verifiability issues in Blood-spinning ( talk page) and added a POV tag. About a month and a half ago, I made a few revisions attempting to clean up some of the language and improve citations. I haven't heard anything since on the talk page - it's not a heavily trafficked page though - and I'm curious if there are still major neutrality concerns, or if we can consider the issue resolved?
Thanks! SwedishRussian ( talk) 22:57, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
We are currently debating the listing of individual and organizations on the templates Template:Islamophobia and to a lessor degree Template:Racism topics (see Template talk:Islamophobia). What are the criteria for inclusion?
Both individuals and organizations omitted ... Jason from nyc ( talk) 11:16, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
Agreed. I'm out today, anyone want to start one at the Village Pump? I think my suggesting wording is neutral, which it needs to be. Dougweller ( talk) 05:29, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
Now at WP:VPP#RfC:"Should organisations be included in templates such as Islamophobia, Racism and anti-Semitism" Dougweller ( talk) 17:42, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
What are people suggesting about this template, which mentions Jew Watch and Stormfront? What other templates will be affected? Or are just the Islamophobia and racism templates being singled out? Dougweller ( talk) 19:57, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
This article was listed at Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Direct_Democracy_Ireland. Jeff Rudd does have a COI with the topic, but that that does not mean his concerns are not valid. For example, he states that "Direct Democracy Ireland is NOT an Freeman Ideology based organization." The Direct Democracy Ireland article now states: "A number of publications and commentators have highlighted DDI's close links to the Freemen on the land movement and the Christian Solidarity Party. DDI leader Ben Gilroy denied links to the Freeman movement when questioned about them on the Prime Time current affairs show on RTÉ and by the Irish Times.[] This is written in a hopelessly biased way. The opinion of the mysterious number of publications and commentators is presented as fact, fails to characterize what "close links" means, presents Gilroy side as though his is on trial and fails to establish that Gilroy denied each allegation of close links to the Freemen on the land movement made by each of the mysterious number of publications and commentators. "Freeman on the Land" also appears in the Infobox political party, even though it is clear that the Direct Democracy Ireland party does not hold itself out as having "Freeman on the Land" Ideology. This has only served to inflame Jeff Rudd (see Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Direct_Democracy_Ireland. He appears to have a number of other concerns, however the Freeman/Freemen issue appears to be the most pressing. Jeff Rudd joined Wikipedia four days ago. To help get this matter under control, Freeman/Freemen references in the Direct Democracy Ireland article should be removed per NPOV. Given the current short length of the article, I suspect that including anything about Freeman/Freemen in the article would not place the subject in context at this point in time. If neutral wording of claims and views regarding Freeman/Freemen that are written in a fair way and without bias that place the subject in context and are verifiable against high-quality reliable sources, then that information can be added to the article. Until then, it would help bring the situation under control to keep out such POV. Please consider Freeman/Freemen references in the Direct Democracy Ireland article per NPOV for the time being. -- Jreferee ( talk) 02:03, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
I, Jeff Rudd, have asked that the management of Wikipedia to stop anonymous editors of its service, to post ALLEGATIONS up as supposed facts. I have removed at times references that were WRONGLY stated that they were facts (thus proven) when in fact there were just ALLEGATIONS (and NOT proven).
It should be also noted that is ironic that anon' editors are allowed to post inaccurate items up - while those that actually are in such an org and know the truth - in some cases, having been there - that they cannot be allowed to edit and post the truth - with their real name attached and thus stand on public record by what they state. Wikipedia is currently being edited wrongly and deliberately by people from a political party called Sinn Fein. We know its them, we know were its coming from, we know a lot more. we are willing and will if necessary, post more information about them.
I have argued against ANON editors - ANON' editors - to this page. If people wish to post up items to the DDI page, tell them to stop being cowardly and identify themselves if their facts are supposedly true! ...But no, ANON editors are allowed post inaccurate ALLEGATIONS - not proven facts - and pass them off in reference as supposed then truth facts proved, when they are not and no evidence exists that they have been proven true.
For example, on the site in contention, its stated that DDI is of Freeman nature. This is a complete and utter lie. I have repeatedly asked for this to be proven. Sinn Fein advocates (political opposition) have anon' posted ALLEGATIONS of this as referenced - not posted EVER, actual real proof.
Again I state for the record:
There is NO Freeman ideology in the constitution of DDI organisation. There is NO Freeman ideology in the rules of the DDI organisation. There is NO Freeman postings on our forums. There is NO Freeman ideology on our website. There is NO freeman mandate in the Mandate of the DDI organisation. There is NO Freeman direction of any kind in the DDI organisation. Even the founder Ray Whitehead was never a Freeman - and NEVER even ALLEGED to be one!
...Yet a political person we know from another party, is allowed anon' to post that we are of wacky Freeman origin - and ONLY reference ALLEGATIONS, many which their own party has actually put out to try besmirch the name of our growing popular organisation! They continuously reference their own allegations submitted into their own paper tabloids produced from their own offices in Dublin, Ireland!
Does anyone here understand the difference between ALLEGATIONS and PROOF? Allegations are NOT proof - they are just crap made up many a time as tried to be passed as proof. As in the case of Wikipedia and Sinn Fein people posting ALLEGATIONS, they are continuously referencing them into Wikipedia as supposed PROOF - then they are not Proof but just ALLEGATIONS!
The "sourced material" referred to, is ALLEGATIONS - NOT proof. 1000 ALLEGATIONS adds up to nothing if there is no PROOF of any description (and there is NONE), to back it. Yet for some bizarre reason, on this particular page, ALLEGATIONS are incredulously accepted as something proved! Why is this? Its completely nuts to do this! It destroys Wikipedias reputation in regard to posting that are factual.
I have done edits over the last few days - indeed a WIKI moderator (Jreferee) elsewhere has acknowledged already that I have only joined a few days ago - that don't stop others out there however from continuing again to spread lies. The digital dates attached to my edits will be on record for Wiki management to examine at any time of their choosing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeff Rudd (talk • contribs) 12:58, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
Now I am stating FOR THE RECORD AND I WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO THE FOLLOWING: the statement publically made at my personal site at: theruddsite dot com
I publically stand by what I say. I am a public face and chairman of DDI. A position I have been democratically and legally elected to. It (at the very least) should be allowed to be posted that a representative of the organisation, has gone on public record to refute the ALLEGATIONS made - especially the ones made on this site by cowardly always anonymous people from another organisation.
I will continue to state this in the forth coming local and national elections here in Ireland and I will continue to highlight the total wrong inaccuracies in the Wikipedia service allowed be entered by anonymous people from another organisation - one thats highly under question within our own island borders, one that has a very history of killing people over decades including many, many British, Irish and international people.
I repeat:
There is NO Freeman ideology in the constitution of DDI organisation. There is NO Freeman ideology in the rules of the DDI organisation. There is NO Freeman postings on our forums. There is NO Freeman ideology on our website. There is NO freeman mandate in the Mandate of the DDI organisation. There is NO Freeman direction of any kind in the DDI organisation. Even the founder Ray Whitehead was never a Freeman - and NEVER even ALLEGED to be one!
We have repeatedly asked these people to produce evidence - not allegations, EVIDENCE - they have ALL so far been not able to show anywhere in our constitution, etc anything that is related to either.
I request that the always anonymous posters provide PROOF - do they understand that word? I don't think they want to for good reason. - I request PROOF - NOT ALLEGATIONS just more referenced and tried to be passed as concrete proof - that DDI is of Freeman basis. IT IS ABSOLUTELY NOT AND THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE IN DDI WANT NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT STRANGE, OUT OF FATE THINKING!
Its requested by myself and my organisation that the ALLEGATION stated be removed from the summary box on the right side of the DDI page - that we are of Freeman ideology. It has not been proven and cannot be - its simply is false and there is no proof out there or posted up referenced as verified proof by ANY independent body.
WE ABSOLUTELY ARE NOT - NOR DO WE WANT TO BE!
Please note also: ONE person might have links to Freeman thinking - the rest of the other 4,000 plus members and fans do not. ONE person does not automatically make a whole organisation what they are. We have Jewish, Catholic, Protestant and other ideologies and faiths in our organisation - in fact more so in numbers than ONE person what MIGHT be of Freeman thinking.
The statement on the Direct Democracy Ireland page where it states "A number of publications and commentators have highlighted DDI's close links to the Freemen on the land movement and the Christian Solidarity Party" is incorrect. The statement on Wiki of what they allege is incorrect, they allege that ONE person is connect to the daft Freeman stuff - not the org! It is not - there might be one person who is - that that like many others, does not taint the organisation and its many thousands of others, right away.
For the record, there is NO material proof that all the rest of the people in it are of Freeman thinking - there might be material that one person might be - but not all the rest. I ask that the statement on the DDI page be adjusted correctly even along the line of "One of the members has been associated with... - while no verified proof exists that shows the rest are of the same ideology"
If a member tomorrow is associated with a party called "The Monster Raving Looney Party" - does that automatically make the rest of us one too? I don't think so - and I don't think anyone with any sense would think so too! ...However one person (anon' editor) and one org behind them is trying so far successfully espouse that this should be the case. This is absolute nuts, a lie and one posted with a political agenda behind it!
Jeff Rudd ( talk) 12:19, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
The word perfect artice in my opinion biased stating opnions as facts such the suit is perfectly intergated — Preceding unsigned comment added by 183.90.41.20 ( talk) 11:11, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
I would welcome any input in the existing RfC regarding the inclusion of Landmark Worldwide in the above list, a discussion currently taking place at Talk:List of new religious movements#RfC regarding Landmark Worldwide. I would also welcome any comments regarding possibly changing the name of the above list in the section immediately below the RfC, where I propose changing it to more clearly allow the inclusion of groups which were referred to as "cults" or "sects" prior to the academic world developing and using the term NRM. I add the note here because, unfortunately, I believe that there is and has been over the years at least occasional POV pushing for Landmark in the wiki, particularly as it relates to criticism of Landmark. John Carter ( talk) 16:26, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
Which is more neutral: "gay people" or "persons with homosexual inclinations"/"with a same-sex attraction"? Discussion here. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 23:35, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
The article Aesthetic Realism is in violation of WP:NPOV in numerous ways. This has been a long-term problem. I will describe its recent history. Beginning in July 2013, I started trying to improve the article, believing that it was both poorly written and biased in favor of the controversial philosophy it is about. I initially made 38 edits. Some of them simply corrected grammar and formatting. Others were more substantial, removing unsourced claims (for example, that gay men and lesbians succeeded in changing their sexual orientations through studying Aesthetic Realism) and eccentric and unencyclopedic language (such as the use of the expression "changed from homosexuality" to describe these alleged changes in sexual orientation). All of these changes were reverted by LoreMariano here, with the excuse that they had not been discussed beforehand. Note that her edit, in addition to restoring numerous errors of grammar and formatting, also restored the following unsourced text: "Some men who began to study to change from homosexuality discontinued their study. Others, who at one time stated they had changed, later decided to live a gay lifestyle. Still others indicate that the change from homosexuality they first experienced in the 1970s and 80s is authentic and continues to the present day." LoreMariano subsequently edit warred in an attempt to restore that material, as seen here. Eventually, the material was removed by Cavann (seen here) and LoreMariano and other editors accepted this. I was also able to correct the article's formatting and some of its grammar (although Aesthetic Realist editors insisted, for no good reason, on retaining some incorrect grammar, as seen for example here).
The article still has numerous problems. I shall describe only two of the worst.
The first involves the removal of a link to the Sexual orientation change efforts article. The link was initially added by me here. The link was removed here by Nathan43, one of the most aggressive and disruptive editors at Aesthetic Realism. Nathan43's edit summary ("Link removed because it deliberately diverts attention to article supportive of editor's own views") indicates that his removal of the link had no basis in policy, and was simply motivated by his own personal dislike of and disagreement with the contents of the Sexual orientation change efforts article (this was what led me to describe his edit as vandalism). The removal of the link was discussed on the talk page. The archived discussion can be seen here. As can be seen, I made several arguments for including the link, arguments which the Aesthetic Realist editors ignored. I pointed out, for example, that despite the insistence of Aesthetic Realist editors that Aesthetic Realism has nothing to do with conversion therapy or sexual orientation change efforts, the Aesthetic Realism article is within the Sexual orientation change efforts category and the link should therefore be perfectly appropriate. No reply to this argument was ever made.
The other problem concerns the fact that much of the article is written in the peculiar jargon favored by Aesthetic Realists, rather than in neutral and encyclopedic language. This has been the subject of a long, inconclusive discussion that can be seen here.
The continuing problems with the article have a simple cause, which frankly is that most of the editors interested in it are Aesthetic Realists and edit in an extremely biased fashion, removing any material that they perceive as being critical of Aesthetic Realism. It is a disgrace to Wikipedia that they have largely been able to get away with this. I would encourage other editors to take an interest in this article's problems and see what can be done to rectify them. FreeKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 08:45, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
After an unsolicited and purely curiosity-based reading of the page on internet astro-turfing my personal impression was that the page, while very elaborate and well-footnoted, still left the reader with a distinctly less-than-nuetral impression of the article's point-of-view. One must acknowledge the presence of sourced and properly-presented factual evidence from a number of opposing perspectives the overall narrative remained overtly favorable to one particular POV. This commenter was appreciative of the efforts obviously employed by the author(s?) to maintain the NPOV but felt that those efforts fell only slightly short and since the page had received such responsible attentions it deserved to be informed that it might have over-compensated in one direction away from the ideal of a NPOV. Sincerely, and w/o prejudice, tobiathan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.81.166.102 ( talk) 23:05, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
Hello all.
Civil society currently states that "The term entered public discourse in the United States and around the world in the 1990s in effect of intensive work of communist propaganda in Poland" in the lead. Aside from the "in effect of"... it sounds like the sort of claim that needs good sourcing. Is this neutral?
Biosthmors (
talk) 09:12, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
It's in the body of the article now. I moved it down, but it's still there. Biosthmors ( talk) 17:39, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
There is a discussion at Talk:Jewish Bolshevism#RfC: Is Jewish Bolshevism a conspiracy theory?.
TFD ( talk) 16:35, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
Jewish bolshevism, according to the reliable sources that discuss the term, was a theory that the Jews were behind the Communist conspiracy which, along with Jewish capitalists, bankers and mainstream media, Masons and the illuminati, was plotting world control. The main issue is whether we should restrict our sources to publications that discuss the theory, or provide detailed information about the "disproportionate representation" of Jews in Communism, which according to some editors is the reason why the theory developed. TFD ( talk) 21:35, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
Jdcrutch ( talk) 06:20, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
In August 2007 an editor added a paragraph[Sun Myung Moon] concerning financial aid given to [[:Liberty University]] ([[Special:EditPage/Liberty University|edit]] | [[Talk:Liberty University|talk]] | [[Special:PageHistory/Liberty University|history]] | [[Special:ProtectPage/Liberty University|protect]] | [[Special:DeletePage/Liberty University|delete]] | [{{fullurl:Special:Whatlinkshere/Liberty University|limit=999}} links] | [{{fullurl:Liberty University|action=watch}} watch] | logs | views) through two Unification Church organisations. Although other critical or controversial material has been removed along the way, this stayed in the article, with modifications, until it was removed 6 days ago with an edit summary stating "Removed debt buy-out as only founding endowments are typically included in university entries and not individual contributions". I reinstated and the original editor, rather than revert me, started a discussion at Talk:Liberty University. He revised his objection, saying that ""Removed debt buy-out as only founding endowments are included in university entries and individual contributions outside of endowments are never included" and pointing out that it isn't in our university guidelines or in any other university page. I suggested that that was not an argument that would hold weight and that the only argument against it would be NPOV, specifically WP:UNDUE and since then that has been the main focus of the debate. As I understand the discussion, we have people who are saying that this is not a real issue nor controversial (or at least it hasn't been shown to be so), and would not be of interest to readers. There's a side debate about whether the main report as published in the LA Times is WP:PRIMARY and if so it shouldn't be used (and at the moment it isn't in the article anyway), but I think it can be used.
It's also been suggested that "The involvement shifts to Jerry Falwell and Moon, and Falwell is not Liberty. "
The current version says that "the school was not aware of News World's connection to Moon when it obtained the loan through a broker" and that Falwell said the source would not affect his ministry. I'm not suggesting that it did.
The story is reported in a number of reliable sources. The LA Times article which is by [[Robert Parry {journalist}]], the Washington Post by their own staff writers who use Parry but also discovered a later loan [12], Christianity Today [13] are just three. Parry says (and this is not in the article) that " Desperate for an infusion of cash, Falwell and two associates made an unannounced trip to South Korea in January 1994, where they solicited help from Unification Church representatives, according to documents on file in a court case in Bedford County, Va. Months later, Moon's organization funneled $3.5 million to Liberty University through a clandestine channel. The money was delivered through one of Moon's front groups, the Women's Federation for World Peace. It then passed through the Christian Heritage Foundation, a Virginia nonprofit corporation that was buying up--and forgiving--Liberty's debt."
Both the Washington Post and the LA Times articles say that the University was in a financial crisis, although our article only says "helped to financially stabilize".
I don't think that WP:UNDUE or WP:SCOPE are reasons to remove this from the article. It doesn't appear to have been a minor issue (or a non-issue as it's been described on the talk page). I've just noted a section on Finances which mentions only current finances. In fact, this help from Moon came after a serious financial crisis caused by the 1991Virginia Supreme Court ruling that Liberty University was ineligible for a tax-free bond issue because of Liberty's "pervasively sectarian" religious character. This was covered for a while in the article, but removed [14] with an edit summary saying ": I simply deleted the 1989 bond issue section. There were no citations at all for the section, it stated falsely that Liberty was named in the court case, and the second paragraph did not even mention Liberty University." That seems to be inaccurate, the university was named. [15]. It could easily have been cited and if I'd seen that I would have reverted and cited it.
It's my view that these issues should be reflected in the article somewhere - and if we don't, their omission will be what violates our NPOV policy. As an aside, the editor removing the Moon material and I had a discussion about another issue last year which you can see on the talk page, where we both agreed that if a lawsuit was noteworthy it should be included, but that at the moment it wasn't. I think that principle applies to this issue. Dougweller ( talk) 13:03, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
This RfC would benefit from comments by uninvolved editors. David in DC ( talk) 18:14, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
A new editor and editor of this article White Hispanic and Latino Americans insists on inserting personal opinions, own life experiences, blog content and blog references into this article. He needs more help/guidance than I can provide. Thanks Hmains ( talk) 20:06, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
Convoluted article about several trials and investigations during which "the Department of Justice was accused of deliberately attempting to drive Inslaw into Chapter 7 liquidation; and of distributing and selling stolen software for covert intelligence operations of foreign governments such as Canada, Israel, Singapore, Iraq, Egypt, and Jordan; and of becoming directly involved in murder." It has wording such as "Yet beneath the surface of this background was a belief that the primary focus of certain top-level individuals within the DoJ was to perpetuate international, covert intelligence operations" sourced to [19] and "Meanwhile, the government began highly suspicious activities to force Inslaw into Chapter 7 liquidation" sourced to [20] (which I'm loathe to add, seems copyvio) and a mirrored version at [21] and [22]. There's more pov language and the whole article seems to be making a point. I've also removed some material added evidently just to attack a BLP. Dougweller ( talk) 10:05, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
Hello, I would like to ask that someone review the final paragraph of the Spill response fund section of the Deepwater Horizon oil spill article. This paragraph was added a few months ago and relies primarily on an op-ed piece from The New York Times. Myself and another editor both raised concerns that the wording is not neutral and may need to draw from other sources. Would editors from here be able to review the material and see if it seems appropriate and neutral, particularly with regards to the source used?
I have tried to address this using the article's talk page and, but the discussion has not been very active and a consensus has not been reached. Can an editor here please look at this and let me know what they think? I should also note that I am BP's representative on Wikipedia, so I have not and will not make any edits to this article. Thanks. Arturo at BP ( talk) 16:45, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
}} Requested remedy: We request independent evaluation of this issue. If it is decided that 'administered' (or some other term) is a preferable non-partisan term over the more prejudicial word 'occupied' then we request that this replacement be used (and protected) to describe 'Golan' in the "Rujm el-Hiri" article.
The article may be found at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rujm_el-Hiri The article's talk page may be found at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Rujm_el-Hiri Though the issue of 'occupied' and related language is discussed in various places on this talk page, the most current discussion (between Nableezy, Zero0000, and myself) is in the section titled: "Partisan Politics does not belong here: WP:POV and WP:OR"
Summary: The article's topic is a 5,000 year old archeological site which has nothing to do with the modern Arab-Israeli conflict (since the site was constructed before 'Israel' or "Arabs' even existed :-). A group of editors, e.g.: Nableezy, Zero0000, Tiamut, Supreme Deliciousness, have insisted on using the phrase 'Israeli-occupied' with a link to the Wikipedia article on the political history of 'Israeli-occupied territories' to modify 'Golan' in the Rujm el-Hiri article. Some editors find the term 'occupied' to be violation of NPOV in this context, since the Israeli government considers the area to be a part of its own country, and (as the map displayed within the article shows) it may be better described as 'disputed' territory. This NPOV issue has become the focus of a small edit-war. I recently did a quick 'google' search and found others who had similar conflicts with these editors (and others who have a reputation of working with them as a concerted group on anti-Zionist issues) over the same prejudicial use of the word 'occupied' and found that some other editors in the past have proposed that 'administered' would be a more neutral alternative to the more politically-loaded term 'occupied.' The use of 'administered' was rejected by Nableezy, et al, who reinserted the 'occupied' language and link, just as Zero0000 had done the previous day.
............
The diffs of the two edits may be found at: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Rujm_el-Hiri&diff=569666323&oldid=569660529
The (edited for compactness) text of these diffs:
Rujm el-Hiri: Difference between revisions ...
Revision as of 01:53, 22 August 2013 (edit) 143.232.129.69 (talk) [Note from Ronreisman: '143.232.129.69' is listed because I forgot to sign-in before making the edit] (Changed 'Israeli-occupied' to more neutral phrase 'Israeli-administered' in an effort to minimize biased language -- see talk page)
Rujm el-Hiri ( Arabic: رجم الهري, Rujm al-Hīrī; Hebrew: גִּלְגַּל רְפָאִים Gilgal Refā'īm) is an ancient megalithic monument, consisting of concentric circles of stone with a tumulus at center. [1] It is located in Israeli-administered Golan Heights ....
UNDONE: Latest revision as of 02:47, 22 August 2013 (edit) (undo) (thank) Nableezy (talk | contribs) (Undid revision 569660529 by 143.232.129.69 (talk restore accurate terminology)
Rujm el-Hiri ( Arabic: رجم الهري, Rujm al-Hīrī; Hebrew: גִּלְגַּל רְפָאִים Gilgal Refā'īm) is an ancient megalithic monument, consisting of concentric circles of stone with a tumulus at center. [1] It is located in the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights ...
............
This insertion of 'occupied' has occurred in other parts of the article and stimulated editor controversy in the past. For instance:
Revision as of 12:39, 26 November 2011 Biosketch (Rmv "recently" commentary not in any of the sources.) ... The site was cataloged during an Israeli archaeological survey carried out in 1967-1968, after the Six-Day War....
Revision as of 18:37, 26 November 2011 Tiamut (talk | contribs) (→History and purpose: missing detail about occupation of syrian territory)
The site was cataloged during an
Israeli archaeological survey carried out in 1967-1968, after
Israel occupied Syria's Golan Heights during the
Six-Day War.
.............
Link to the current Talk:Rujm_el-Hiri#Partisan_Politics_does_not_belong_here:_WP:POV_and_WP:OR section. (copied text replaced by link) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ronreisman ( talk • contribs)
First of all, it would be extremely helpful if the talk page section was linked instead of copied and pasted. It was insanely difficult for me to make sense of the text. Also, could the original poster please clarify what is being requested? Thanks! Leujohn ( talk, stalk me?) 18:18, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
I'm the 'original poster' and the 'request' is to reach a respectful consensus regarding a 'neutral' alternative to the partisan use of 'occupied' -- and accompanying link to a controversial political-territorial topic -- inserted into an article where none of these political issues are mentioned (eg 'Rujm el-Hiri' is an archeology topic). I agree with Zero000 that 'controlled' (*without* political article link) is an acceptable alternative. Do we have consensus? Ronreisman ( talk) 00:23, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
"Occupied" is the correct and neutral word. Anything else is misleading. -- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 03:01, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
First, I agree with the result, but disagree with the reasoing of Supreme Deliciousness ( talk · contribs) above. In my view, this isn't a battle of which is RS is more reliable than the other RS's. Rather, this debate has to do with which RS's carry the greatest WP:WEIGHT.
Second, AgadaUrbanit ( talk · contribs) seems to imply that the professional archeological literature generally has the #1 claim to "greatest weight". I disagree with this implication for the following reasons.
For those reasons, I do not agree that the professional archeological RS's are the RS's of "greatest WP:Weight".
Third, as a general principle, intellectual integrity admits the possibility that omission of well-documented facts can, in some circumstances, be a form of POV. In this case, Israeli occupation of this specific locale is well-documented in a wide range of RS's. Since we are neither a professional journal writing for experts nor a hard bound resource, we should describe locations in a way that makes sense for the widest general audience. For Lake Superior shipwrecks, that means stating whether the locale is in US or Canadian waters. That's easy, because it doesn't push emotional political buttons. If that logic makes sense for Lake Superior shipwrecks, true NPOV requires applying the same logic for locations in regions of conflicting international claims. In the article under discussion, that means a simple statement of the widely-documented fact that this spot is in the "Israeli-Occupied" part of the Golan, rather than a well-intentioned omission of this fact. Plus we are supposed to avoid ambiguities if possible. The site is not in the Syrian controlled/occupied/claimed/whatever part of the Golan Heights, but the Israeli. Instead of the ambiguous "Golan" why not just say "Middle East", or for that matter "Planet Earth"? No, our task is to be NPOV matter-of-fact and avoid ambiguity. This spot is considered, by nearly the entire international community, to be "Israeli-occupied", and omitting this is at worst a form of POV-by-intentional-omission and at best creates a good-faith-but-nonetheless-impermissible ambiguity.
Fourth, upon the suggestion of this Wikipedia guideline, I took a peek at the CIA World Factbook, which says "Golan Heights is Israeli-occupied". They appear to have less motive to say one thing and not another than professionals writing for other professionals in such a way that greases the wheels with the controlling authorities when they want to do field research at the site itself. NewsAndEventsGuy ( talk) 16:25, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
Article:
Fraz Wahlah
Discussion:
Talk:Fraz Wahlah#Problems with the article
This article is in poor condition and some IP editors (probably its one user using 2-3 IPs) regularly add non-neutral content that even fails verification. I have tried to address the apparent issues with the article but these IP regularly revert back. I have tried to explain the problems on the talk but to no avail. Can someone please take a look whether this article in current shape adheres to NPOV, specially the last section titled "The Flag-bearer - BBC". -- SMS Talk 17:01, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
At Nina Rosenwald ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) an editor changed a sentence in the lead which read "Since 2000, Rosenwald and her sister, Elizabeth Varet, have donated over $2.8 million to "organizations that fan the flames of Islamophobia." to one that read "Since 2000, Rosenwald and her sister, Elizabeth Varet, have donated over $2.8 million to organizations that are staunchly pro-Israel." I revised this and objected on the talk page. The same editor has changed it so that it now reads "Rosenwald's philanthropy to organizations opposing islamization has led her detractors to label her as "anti-Muslim" and "islamophobic"". The source [23] doesn't say 'opposing islamization' and 'islamization' is in fact an extremely pov word often used by anti-Muslims, so clearly not appropriate here.
In addition, an new section has been created, "Critics of philanthropy". That's clearly a pov section heading, the criticism is that she funds anti-Muslim groups, and using 'philanthropy' to mean funding anti-Muslim groups is not exactly NPOV. The text has gone from one pov statement - " Commentators have criticized Rosenwald for her support of pro-Israel organizations"(which is the editor translating 'anti-Muslim' to 'pro-Israel' to another statement that repeats the bit about "organizations opposing islamization". Again, this is misrepresenting the source (same source) in a pov manner. Dougweller ( talk) 20:49, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
I think it is WP:OR for us to decide which donations to which organizations are philanthropy or not. Philanthropy is for the love of humanity. Blumenthal's family is certainly doing it for what they perceive as the benefit of humanity. We may disagree with her interpretation thereof, but that is opinion, just as we may disagree with the goals or methods of any charity or non-profit. Further, the meaning of the word has morphed over time to generally cover endowments, trusts and other donations, or involvement with non-profits. . There is no question that these are in fact endowments and trusts. from or own philanthropy article "By the early 21st century the word "nonprofit" was generally accepted as synonymous with philanthropy". These are non profits. That said, consensus may certainly determine what wording to use that is supported by the sources - but there is no policy based reason against using that term. Gaijin42 ( talk) 22:06, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Pursuant to Dougweller's concerns, I've been looking at the report that Max Blumenthal used from the Center for American Progress, called "Fear, Inc.". A couple things: 1) the quoted phrase "organizations that fan the flames of Islamophobia" does not occur in "Fear, Inc." at all, let alone in relation to the Rosenwalds. The closest thing to it is on page 94, "Yet MEMRI’s selective translations of Arab media fan the flames of Islamophobia." AFAICT, the "Fear, Inc." report does not link MEMRI with Rosenwald largesse. 2) Nina Rosenwald is not mentioned in the "Fear, Inc." report. -- 72.66.30.115 ( talk) 02:41, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
While this may be a mistake on the part of the copyeditors at The Nation, it doesn't change the sense of the quote for our purposes, so it's not a problem for us. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 07:11, 1 October 2013 (UTC)Rosenwald and her sister Elizabeth Varet, who also directs the family foundation, have donated more than $2.8 million since 2000 to organizations that "fan the flames of Islamophobia."
The lead section should not be written with quotes from those of the opposite side of the political spectrum, i.e. the Nation. This is highly inflammatory and partisan. It should be generic "supports conservative causes" with controversy within the article if we aspire to being an encyclopedia and not a tabloid.. A good example of an encyclopedia-type lead is in the George Soros article: "Soros is a well-known supporter of progressive-liberal political causes." It would cheapen the article if we put "Radical anti-American billionaire George Soros is a major backer of a left-wing group that is funneling money to the Occupy Wall Street movement" from the right-wing and venerable conservative journal Human Events [26]. Let's take the high road. Jason from nyc ( talk) 11:35, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
We still have IP 72 claiming that Rosenwald focuses on "supporting human rights and democracy around the world" while trying his or her very hardest to downplay all reliably sourced negative material (refusing, for instance, to attribute a newspaper's words to that newspaper and instead naming the author, perhaps with the hope that a casual reader will assume the writer is a polemicist instead of a journalist). Please continue to keep an eye on this article; whether a financial conflict of interest or simply a user with an ax to grind, WP is being exploited here. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 01:14, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
This article's Reception section consists of a statement that almost all the reviews of this musical theatre production have been raves, followed by 17 pull-quotes of rave reviews for various productions. That isn't a "critical reception" section of an encyclopedia article, that's marketing. I removed the quotes as violating WP:PROMO and WP:QUOTEFARM, but another editor edit-warred to restore them. Since such unrelenting postivity concerning the show (which I haven't seen, but which I'm sure is just fine) cannot possibly be allowed under the WP:NPOV policy, I'd like editors from here to take a look. It seems to me that material that violates three different policies should be removed, but the editor who restored them (who seems to have ownership issues with the article) insists that because they are referenced, which they are, they must stay until someone writes a balanced Reception section. I disagree - they should be removed and the writing of that section can start from scratch. As long as that extensive list of positive quotes is in the article, there is no impetus for anyone, especially a fan of the show, to write a policy-compliant section. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 05:12, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
Today, within 81 minutes, my NPOV warning tag at the article Federal Assault Weapons Ban was reverted. I would appreciate a third opinion. Am I being unreasonable to think that my opinion of a NPOV violation involved in an difficult ongoing discussion on the article talk page deserves a warning tag in the article space? I am of the opinion that the NPOV tag is a good thing in that it alerts readers of the article to the ongoing NPOV discussion on the talk page. SaltyBoatr get wet 16:44, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
"The specific problem is systemic editor bias" If that's the case, then NPOVN is not the right venue for resolving the problems. -- Ronz ( talk) 22:11, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
The water fluoridation article is written as if water fluoridation is not a controversial topic. It's tone is to present as fact the benefits of water fluoridation, without giving weight to contradictory studies. Campoftheamericas ( talk) 19:05, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
/info/en/?search=Talk:Abu_Zubaydah for the Talk discusssion.
My comments and the comments of others suggest that it is unlikely that anyone would dispute that this article is exceedingly biased. This is discussed in great detail in the talk page link given above. It is my sincere desire that, if this article cannot be deleted, then at the very least it should have a NPOV banner added to it to warn the unsuspecting reader that this is a very biased presentation of the circumstances surrounding the case of Abu Zabaydah and GITMO in general. Detailing all the problems would take pages. Suffice to say, for NPOV banner purposes, that it should not take long to discern the article is severely biased, makes numerous assertions that would be difficult to substantiate under any circumstances (such as someone's state of mind), and presents a number of conclusions that are not apparently warranted by the cited data. Based on other articles I've seen in Wikipedia with NPOV banners, this article would seem to be an appropriate candidate for such a banner. Edward Carr Franks, PhD 19:28, 2 October 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edfranks ( talk • contribs)
summary:
my preferred solution: To add a phrase in order that the occupation was planned as a response to to other Arab armies attack only. (as said in the source in the same page).
note: If needed, I may quote the whole relevant page (Morris,2008, p.319 ) Ykantor ( talk) 17:46, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
Parts of the biography of two Young Turk leaders, Nazım Bey and Mehmed Reshid, is being removed by HouseOfArtaxiad and MarshallBagramyan. [29] [30] Can someone restore the info back?
There is a misunderstanding, I had added the following information based on a study on the Armenian genocide by Ugur Ungor, a Dutch scholar from Kurdish ancestry who is one of the leading researchers on the Armenian Genocide. He is not a Turk or a denialist but a promoter of the Genocide. Other authors relate a similar story to what I added and it is not anti Armenian at all. Both of these persons, Nazım Bey and Mehmed Reshid, were related to the Armenian Genocide, the older versions of their articles were dominated by their role in the genocide with few personal information about them or their motives. It was a very black white presentation. Important aspects of their biography were missing. Such as that they were both Muslims expelled from their homeland by Christian armies. Reshid descended from an ethnically cleansed ( Ethnic cleansing of Circassians) Circassian family by the Russians. There is a relevant relation between his family history and his fear to be again ethnically cleansed by the invading Russians and the Ottoman Armenians whom he considered to be Russian allies. Nazım was a succesful resident of Thessaloniki but was imprisoned and maltreated in a Greek prison during his towns capture in the Balkan Wars. After his release he became a radical Christian hating Turkish nationalist. Ofcourse these earlier events do not mean these persons were justified to commit genocide on the Armenians or anyone, this was only added as an explanation for their personal motives and early family history.
HouseOfArtaxiad was reverted when he first removed the text but in his second deletion gave the following (wrong and WP:OR) reasons:
"The same Turk author also wrote justifications for Mehmed Reshid's psychopathic tendencies. It's clear he is just trying to justify mass murders. If either of them were mentally scarred, they should be the ones to write about it, not someone else.)"
Declaring an author unreliable because of his ethnicity seems racist, btw he is Kurdish, he is not trying to justify but explains their motives, demanding that Nazim and Reshid should write about their personal problems is WP:OR
"His family could not have moved there in the 1860s if he himself was born in 1873. Some minor fixes"
Ungor's source states that he was born in the Caucasus to a Circassian family who moved to the Ottoman empire. [33], [34]
Ungor is a reliable academic source and is used on many wiki articles. Some of his sentences regarding Nazim and Reshid have been removed by because they probably give a less vilified personality. The problems is that these persons are being demonized by selective info. I do not think anyone but an admin has the ability to convince HouseOfArtaxiad and MarshallBagramyan so pardon me for not beginning an edit war.
Here is the original online page of Ungor's book regarding Nazim. [35] and here regarding Reshid [36] Thank you for your time. Fatbob5 ( talk) 16:49, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
At Nina Rosenwald an editor has added scare quotes to the word 'Islamophobic', stating that "re-wrote sentence to remove its tautological ring; "islamophobia" needs to stay in quotes to show Wikipedia recognizes it is a politically loaded term, vague, controversial and deprecated (by the AP)." I'd already objected to scarequotes on the talk page and another editor had removed them, but since then the scare quotes were replaced for this particular word. I'm not at all convinced that it is NPOV to select words in this way for scare quotes in order to show how Wikipedia feels about the word. Dougweller ( talk) 20:39, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
( edit conflict):::::::Andy is right. There's a fallacy here in assuming that Islamophobia is some sort of psychological phobia. That's akin to the argument "I can't be anti-Semitic, some of my best friends are Arabs". It isn't a phony word. Phobia in fact is defined as "an extreme or irrational fear" in my OED, not as an anxiety disorder. But you've been told that already. The word 'anti-Semitic' is also pejorative and for some people controversial, as is 'racism', etc. But we should not be using scare quotes for them either. Dougweller ( talk) 18:31, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
Or maybe not labeling, but we have " Media and organizations self-described as leftist, progressive or Muslim, including The Nation, the Center for American Progress, and The American Muslim, have categorized her and the Gatestone Institute as anti-Muslim and "Islamophobic". The 'self-described' bit was added by the IP, and it leaves the reader unclear about which was self-described as what. If you read it in order it's technically accurate, but is it acceptable? Dougweller ( talk) 09:05, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
Article: /info/en/?search=Windows_8
Bias in opening paragraphs: Windows 8 is a complete joke of an operating system developed by Microsoft for use on personal computers... Windows 8 introduced stupid major changes to the operating system's platform...
Suggest removing all edits by user 81.129.178.84 who introduced the bias. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmhattingh ( talk • contribs) 09:11, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
This is a "brokerage" operating out of a small country, which has been pretty universally excoriated as a scam operation. Nonetheless, eager editors have been adding and deleting content, some of it possibly original research and some of it certainly lacking in NPOV, so that the length swings by thousands of characters in a single edit; and a handful of editor keep trying to trim it back to look like this is just another busines, with dissatisfied customers and quibbling regulators. There's also what I see as a disquieting tendency to put undue emphasis on the Jewish connections of one of the firm's principals. Could we get a few new eyeballs here? -- Orange Mike | Talk 13:25, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
Does this article read like an advertisement for Sanger's post-Wikipedia projects to anyone else? In particular, the Citizendium section seems quite questionable. Adam Cuerden ( talk) 01:22, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
As a breaking news event, there are editor(s) who appear to be solely interested in pimping every detail that hits any newswire in what appears to be an effort to stoke any potential flames. More outside eyes would be helpful. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:29, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
This article was apparently created by searching for "Grammarly" and using all results regardless of the quality of the source or the appropriateness for use in an encyclopedia article on the subject. While we've made some progress in previous discussions, there are still many NPOV and related ( WP:NOT, WP:RS, WP:PSTS) problems.
A detailed breakdown of all the remaining problems is here. I'm recommending this version. The talk page is covered with previous attempts at addressing the concerns. -- Ronz ( talk) 16:10, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
A couple examples:
We're making progress. Currently disputed are: -- Ronz ( talk) 15:42, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
Grammarly Inc. collaborated with The New York Times,[12] AARP The Magazine and other organizations to celebrate the National Day on Writing in 2012.[5][undue weight? – discuss]
Grammarly was also nominated in April 2013 for Best Web Services & Applications in the 17th Annual Webby Awards, coming third place among five finalists.[15][16]
It appears that the creator of this article, and the person fighting against all the changes, may be a paid editor. Discussion here. -- Ronz ( talk) 16:32, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
A few days ago the article Washington Redskins name controversy was tagged for not being neutral. I am the major contributor to this article, but not by intention. I edit the article on the larger issue Native American mascot controversy and only add to the other article when I run across something specific to the "Redskins" that I cannot integrate into the main article. An editor who has not contributed to the article added the tag, but has not done nothing else. No one else has participated in the discussion, so I plan to remove the tag after one week, but I welcome other input. The problem is that the issue may have two sides, but only one is substantially represented in reliable sources. FriendlyFred ( talk) 21:24, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
A YouTube video containing a presentation about editing Wikipedia, apparently under the auspices of the James Randi Educational Foundation, with some rather disturbing content. The presenter is Susan Gerbic, whom I believe, without being completely sure, is User:Sgerbic.
The video is more than an hour long and can't be guaranteed to remain on YouTube indefinitely. But it contains evidence of offsite collusion on Facebook (at 40:44) and elsewhere to impose a skeptical POV on Wikipedia articles. She also gives advice as to how these targeting editors can avoid looking like single purpose accounts (29:20) and brags about running off editors with different views. (32:10 et seq.). The video claims that she has established an offsite network coordinating more than 90 editors (4:22) to impose a "skeptical" POV on a large number of articles. She also says that she has successfully used Wikipedia to drive web traffic to the Randi foundation's website, and started articles about its members. (ca. 50:00 et. seq.)
Lawyering and improvised rulemaking to prevent paranormal literatures from being cited as evidence of the substance of paranormal beliefs is a longstanding problem. Let's face it, claiming that an astrology textbook is an "unreliable source", being "in universe" because it assumes astrology is worthy of study, is transparent sophistry, and unproductive lawyering of the worst kind. Our page Aries (astrology) contains next to nothing about what astrologers think about Aries, a subject with a vast literature. This POV-pushing offsite project has done readers a disservice. - Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003!
If you'd like people to investigate problematic editing by "guerilla skeptics", could you provide some diffs that you think are problematic? bobrayner ( talk) 12:34, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 35 | ← | Archive 40 | Archive 41 | Archive 42 | Archive 43 | Archive 44 | Archive 45 |
A DYK for a company, currently on Main page, has ... that British manufacturer Karrimor's formidable reputation for ground-breaking outdoor pursuit equipment was a direct result of its location in Lancashire, and a CEO who was an avid climber and trekker? - I queried the use of formidable at Wikipedia_talk:Did_you_know#Prep_1 before the article ended up on the Main Page, and "formidable" was removed from the hook - I now see it is not only reinstated, but has gone live... this hardly seems NPOV and is actively promoting a company. Probably all a bit late now, since it must have been on Main Page for a good number of hours... Simon Burchell ( talk) 10:50, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
WP:AGF is a good idea. Here's another DYK.
Well, to be fair, two people did. Both were DYK reviewers. Both confirmed the hook as good to go on this specific point.
This does suggest a possible discussion about review of main page content that is NPOV/V/NOR accurately worded in a surprising tone, but the bad faith and lack of notice in this issue is staggeringly large. The matter would never have been an issue either, if those involved had done the right thing and notified or discussed. This has been here a week, unnotified. It's usual people are told if they or their work is being discussed. Since they didn't, it's unsurprising that the hook, and the 2 reviewers who concurred with the hook, went ahead.
Alternatively, it might have been easier to resolve before Main Page or any other place, if someone had bothered to notify or discuss, so their concerns could have been addressed. I would have readily put it on hold myself, unasked, if I'd been made aware of the concern.
Discussion has since been moved to W:AN ( Link). FT2 ( Talk | email) 23:46, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Currently has as paragraph 2 of the lead:
The source given is from ACORN: "Scott Harshbarger and Amy Crafts (2009-12-07). An Independent Governance Assessment of ACORN: The Path To Meaningful Reform" which does not actually make the claims as stated and this query is presented here to determine if this material properly follows WP:NPOV. Collect ( talk) 14:58, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
McCain has gone after the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now. And we've gone after him, for an ad accusing the group of "massive voter fraud" and for saying in the final presidential debate that ACORN is "now on the verge of maybe perpetrating one of the greatest frauds in voter history in this country, maybe destroying the fabric of democracy." Both claims are breathtakingly inaccurate. There's a huge difference between voter fraud and voter registration fraud.
Losing NY-23 candidate Doug Hoffman became the latest in an increasingly long line of conservative politicians to blame his problems on ACORN yesterday despite the complete lack of evidence the organization played any role in his defeat. [...] Belief in the ACORN conspiracy theory is even higher among GOP partisans than the birther one, which only 42% of Republicans expressed agreement with on our national survey in September. [...] The constant harping on ACORN by Republican politicians may sound nutso in some circles, but it certainly has hurt the organization's image...
[The video] was deemed by the Brooklyn District Attorney's office to be a "heavily edited" splice job, after a five-and-a-half-month probe. Sources told the Post that "many of the seemingly crime-encouraging answers were taken out of context so as to appear more sinister." No charges will be filed.
O’Keefe stated he was out to make a point and to damage ACORN and therefore did not act as a journalist objectively reporting a story. The video releases were heavily edited to feature only the worst or most inappropriate statements of the various ACORN employees and to omit some of the most salient statements by O’Keefe and Giles.
“The evidence illustrates,” Brown said, “that things are not always as partisan zealots portray them through highly selective editing of reality. Sometimes a fuller truth is found on the cutting room floor.” The original storm of publicity created by O’Keefe’s videotapes was instrumental in ACORN’s subsequent denunciation in Congress, a sudden tourniquet on its funding, and the organization’s eventual collapse.
The videos that have been released appear to have been edited, in some cases substantially, including the insertion of a substitute voiceover for significant portions of Mr. O’Keefe’s and Ms.Giles’s comments, which makes it difficult to determine the questions to which ACORN employees are responding.
Amazing! which were later found to be partially falsified and selectively edited,[9] by two conservative activists, James O'Keefe and Hannah Giles. makes no allegations of wrongdoing by specific living persons? And the videos were not about the "voter drive" but specifically about material which is not mentioned in the lead at all -- to wit promotion or condoning of illegal activities. Cheers -- now clean the article up - it has so many overreaching claims as to be risible. And this board is about "neutral point of view" which, I suggest, is heavily violated through the entire article.
Collect (
talk) 14:54, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
ACORN's voter registration drives, which it has conducted since the 1980s, has been frequently mischaracterized by supporters of Republican candidates "voter fraud". ACORN received significant negative publicity in the wake of the 2009 production and publication of videos, which were later found to be partially falsified and selectively edited,[9] by two conservative activists, James O'Keefe and Hannah Giles.
Shows a seque between the two claims which is not present in any sources. In fact, the two issues are entirely disparate. In addition the "frequently mischaracterized" is a statement not found in the sources -- which do not make that particular claim. And the mentioning of two living persons by name intrinsically requires that we obey WP:BLP even if an editor feels that saying someone "falsified" something is not "wrongdoing." Cheers - but that sort of claim beggars belief. Collect ( talk) 23:36, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
Page:
Séralini affair (
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There is an ongoing dispute on this page regarding the biased nature of the original article. The original article seems to have a specific negative angle with edits of this angle constantly being removed. With many reasons being used for deletions - many of which may be considered false.
The Talk section is particularly interesting with many points of view being shared but not many being taken into account.
A balanced article is all that is required. I personally have given up editing and reverting - and have taken to the 'talk' page to reach consensus before further edits. Hog1983 ( talk) 08:39, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
a) Scientific support for Seralini:
Reason for editing text will be to make it more balanced and saying that the Seralini study was both ‘supported’ and ‘criticized’ by scientists – I want consensus on this before edits are made: http://aspta.org.br/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/NK603-20may2013.pdf - Brazilian scientists supporting Seralini in official letter to Brazilian food regulatory body http://www.lemonde.fr/idees/article/2012/11/14/science-et-conscience_1790174_3232.html 140 scientists supporting Seralini’s study http://independentsciencenews.org/health/seralini-and-science-nk603-rat-study-roundup/ Open letter to support Seralini from worldwide scientists
b) Text in article: ‘Other long term studies, which were publicly funded, have uncovered some health issues.’ This is unbalanced as is shown on this directory of studies showing harm caused by GMOs: www.gmoevidence.com. I would like to remove this text. Group opinion please – not just editors of this page
‘Séralini had required that journalists sign a confidentiality agreement’ this was a method of study release that has been done by others – it was both supported and criticized in the press: www.gmoseralini.org.
c) All text about method of release being ‘only criticized’ should be removed if this is an unbiased article
d) The Sprauge-Dawley rat is used by Monsanto and all bio-tech industry in their experiments – so all reference to this as a problem should be removed: http://gmoseralini.org/criticism-sprague-dawley-rats-get-tumours-when-food-intake-is-unrestricted/
e)All references to media coverage should be balanced : there should not be a tone of only negative media coverage as the majority of media coverage was positive – please refer to directory of media coverage here: http://gmoseralini.org/category/media-coverage/
f) The argument that the new EFSA protocol does not mention the Seralini study is ridiculous – as it is 95% based on the protocol of the Seralini study – Just read both protocols to see: this is an article about this connection: http://gmoseralini.org/seralini-validated-by-new-efsa-guidelines-on-long-term-gmo-experiments/
g) GMOSeralini.org is not a Self-Published Source as quoted on this talk for reason for deletion of this source: http://gmoseralini.org/about-us/ - ‘Professor Gilles-Eric Séralini, his colleagues, and the organizations with which they are affiliated have no connection with the owners or editors of this website and bear no responsibility for its content.’ ‘The GMOSeralini website is owned and maintained by a group of concerned citizens and scientists.’ ‘This site has independent expert editors.’ Hog1983 ( talk) 08:51, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
Please note Talk:Lindsey Graham#Neutrality dispute--August 2, 2013, relating to how to summarize opinions of Graham's tenure in Congress. -- Arxiloxos ( talk) 19:58, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
Done Users on the page seem to be satisfied with a solution implemented. Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:16, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
Hi
This article seems to be very biased toward the tiger without evidence or in fact much zoological context. Numerous contributors on the talk page are either dismissed without thorough discussion or just ignored entirely if they do not share the pro-tiger bias.
In particular
1 - The page states that tigers usually kill lions when they meet in captivity, without citation, then lists several examples of this happening with citations. In reality there is no thorough study done comparing which animal kills the other more often and therefore no conclusive information about his, and the article should say so. Also there are many individual examples of either animal killing the other, and this should also be stated clearly with examples, if any, of both tiger and lions being dominant.
2- The page supplies 4 "expert opinions" favouring the tiger, none of which are actual zoologist, and a neutral fifth expert opinion. Once again, there are random and spurious, merely giving a false impression that most experts would favour the tiger. There are expert opinions that favour the lion, including an actual zoologist, but none are included, requests to have them included are simply denied.
3 - There is no discussion of the relative adaptations of the two cats, and the fcat that the male lion in particular has evolved in a climate of high conflict between each other and with other predators. This seems incredible since the size and the relative adaptations of the two animals are the only two relevant factors in comparing the animals. To leave in comment on size (assumedly because the tiger is bigger so this favours the tiger) while leaving out comment on the adaptations (assumedly because the lion has evolved in an environment where it fights more often and therefore will naturally be better adapted for fighting) is clearly another form of bias.
I would like to inform the editor of the offending page about this complaint as it says i should, but i don't know how to and can't seee the link here. Please advise as to how i can do this.
Thanks
NickPriceNZ ( talk) 12:08, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
Politically Incorrect (blog) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). There's a long running debate here as to whether Template:Islamophobia belongs on this article. My view is that it is clearly relevant to the article and thus belongs on it. The counter view seems to be that this template labels the PI blog and is simply wrong as we can't call the blog Islamaphobic. I'd like some independent comments on this issue. Dougweller ( talk) 15:58, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
The first and foremost question is this: what provisions do the guidelines make about the adding of templates? I would like to have a clear reference from Dougweller (or anybody else) on what basis the template should be added, so that we can start to have a meaningful discussion guided by criterias. Sentiment and gut-feeling alone, I am sorry, is simply not enough when it comes to such controversial and loaded 'scare templates' such as Islamophobia or Antisemitism.
Because the situation is there is in fact no general agreement in reliable sources as how to classify the blog. I tried to make this clear as it can be in the article. The opinions are divided and in no small part fall along political lines (see the article for sources): while the clear majority of liberal and left-wing media does indeed label the blog as "Islamophobic", some conservative outlets like the Gatestone Institute, FrontPage Magazine and American Thinker regard it as right-conservative website which exercises its freedom of speech against the demands of political correctness. And while the Bavarian branch of the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution does observe the Munich office, and only the Munich office, for Islamophobia, the other 15 Bundesland branches do not observe it. Most importantly, the national bureau in Berlin has repeatedly classified PI as - quote - "Islam critical" and not islamophobic. Since Islamophobia is a different subject in Wikipedia than criticism of Islam, it follows that we cannot use its template for articles which fall outside its scope.
As for the argument that the founder's words "Phobia is fear, and I'm afraid of Islam" are to be understood as evidence for the blog's Islamophobia, this does not stand up to scrutiny for two reasons. First, Wikipedia generally does not view self-classifications as authoritative or binding, but makes a point of relying on reliable, third-party sources. The founder himself, however, is first-party, not third-party. Secondly, the 'Islamophobia' the founder speaks of is clearly a different beast than the negatively-loaded Islamophobia as defined in the WP article. He makes it clear he means really fear of Islam, whereas the WP article defines the subject quite differently as (irrational) animosity, antipathy or hostility towards Islam. This is obviously not the same thing and we can't throw these things indiscriminately together.
Thus, there is no clear consensus either way. Adding the Islamophobia template against the substantial amount of dissenting reliable sources would be too much into POV lands and negative labelling. Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 19:14, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
Before the discussion deviates even further from the original subject, I would like to repeat my initial question: on what basis in the WP guidelines do those who want to add the template act? Please cite the relevant guideline which says that a template can be added even when there clearly exists no consensus in reliable sources. Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 12:48, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
Ok, so the blog self-identifies as islamophobic, we have several reliable sources saying it is slamophobic and the only objection is that not all sources say it is islamophobic. Why is this even up for debate? // Liftarn ( talk)
The template itself is a bad idea ( WP:LABEL) to begin with. Remove it. Athenean ( talk) 21:10, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Please have a look at Talk:Asaram_Bapu#Removed_sections, which is most probably going to become an edit war now. Tito☸ Dutta 17:21, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
Requesting feedback on scope at Talk:Gospel of the Hebrews#Scope of this article. Thanks. Ignocrates ( talk) 16:45, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
This article does not cite a single reliable news source, and appears to be a vanity article written by Mr. Casscone himself. There's plenty of biographical information to be found, with absolutely no verifiability, and the article seems to conflict with Wikipedia's NPOV policy. Should be a candidate for deletion, if these issues cannot be addressed, and Mr. Cascone's Silent Records page also has zero citations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.16.3.12 ( talk) 23:18, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
In the
Ivan Massow article,
User:Welsh-marches has recently added material which is always critical of the article subject, and seems to me to be worded in such a way so as to emphasize the negative. I am not disagreeing that some of this information should be added to the article, my concern is the way it is being presented. I have tried to word the information in a way which seems to me to be more neutral, though Welsh-marches doesn't see it that way. I do not have sufficient knowledge of the subject (financial services) to feel confident of discussing details on the talk page, so have come here. The particular wording which I seek comment on at the moment is in
this edit.
For background, please note the discussion with a COI editor which took place
here (and all sections beneath it) in 2012, in which myself and other editors, arrayed against a previous employee of Massow (
User:Lisa Thorne), were trying (and ultimately succeeding) to prevent the article being too positive about it's subject. In my view Welsh-marches may possibly have a conflict of interest the other way; their editing history is primarily in the subject of financial services, and on 11th July 2012 they made a number of edits to this article which, in the main, tended to emphasize negative information about the article subject (e.g. see
this edit). If I've brought this to the wrong noticeboard, can someone advise a better one (
COIN?). Thanks.
PaleCloudedWhite (
talk) 00:00, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
This article seems to be very judgemental of "kill-shelters" and uses a lot of emotive language like "less grim." I don't feel qualified to write a more balanced article and wouldn't know where to begin. There is no mention of the fact that kill shelters usually have a policy of not turning away any animals. No-kill shelters have limited intakes, the overflow go to kill shelters. 105.224.143.112 ( talk) 09:24, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
I found Template:Violence against Muslims which links
Don't these all violate WP:NPOV? As they look like all just lists of conflicts between Muslims and other religious groups. Look like Wikipedia:Coatrack articles. Would having articles Persecution of religious group xyz then listing all conflicts they've been in be neutral?-- Loomspicker ( talk) 22:07, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
There seems to be NPOV problem in 2002 Gujarat violence. I find the whole article to have departed from NPOV, with Books beings used wherever it suits the POV and Newspaper articles to be used wherever it suits the POV. For example, the opening paragraph of the article states that The attack on 27 February 2002 on a train, thought by most to have been carried out by Muslims, and which caused the deaths of 58 people . But the sources mentioned there did mention that it was direct attack by Muslims. So, after my edit got reverted twice [5], I took it to the Talk page [6]. There, I produced various sources that directly says carried out by Muslims, rather than thought to be carried out by Muslims. However, on the talk page, I could find fellow editors rejecting all the sources I gave. Not alone this example, the whole article seemed to be have done with non-NPOV and looks like a provocative article, rather than informative one. Please discuss on the NPOV status of the article and give your valuable suggestions! - Vatsan34 ( talk) 16:08, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
Genetically modified food controversies. IMHO this article is not NPOV according to its title. There is material in the article that is not controversial that should be removed as promotional 'fluff' for one side of the controversy. There is notable RS material that should be added that isn't. When either are done then the edits are reverted without adequate discussion using what appears to be WP:GANG and WP:OWN. I could provide diffs but I will let the regulars here judge by looking at the article, history, and talk pages.-- Canoe1967 ( talk) 21:31, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
I feel this issue extends beyond just the one article. I tried to add Taco Bell GMO recall material to the controversies article and it was reverted. I then created it as a stand alone article as a well sourced and notable event. At present others are seeking consensus for a move to StarLink corn recall. I suspect this is a preliminary move to eventually redirect it to Genetically modified maize and remove much of the material along the way. There are many editors that seem to want this incident either swept under the rug or buried deep in other articles. The same happened with Roundup (herbicide). At present some editors are trying to unmerge it back to a standalone article because much of the material was unilaterally removed during the merge by one editor. See Talk:Roundup_(herbicide)#RfC:_Un-merge_from_Glyphosate.3F for details. A similar merge and material removal was also done with Organic farming methods. That merge had zero discussion, let alone consensus. Our goal should be to expand and split material for our readers and not to collapse and delete it.-- Canoe1967 ( talk) 19:06, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
I started editing the Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest policy page recently. I noticed systemic bias towards Public Relations editing. As I edit, I have faced reversions simply because they disagree, and they have not entertained consensus building discussion on talk. Since PR firms have the ability to recruit more editors and simply outnumber disagreeable opinions, the argumentation process of consensus building is important to ensure we're not gravitating towards vote counts.
So, some issues I am seeing on the Wikipedia policy page on COI is that oped pieces that give tailored advise to those editing in Corporate Communications/Public Relations capacity from and written in a way that resonates with them. Referencing to its PR trade organizations like PRSA and Further Readings material that tailor to "edit for consideration" / vested interest group are also quite questionable.
Can I get some input on this? Cantaloupe2 ( talk) 13:23, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
The article Usage share of web browsers has a summary section which cites current statistics from a number of statistics counters measuring page impressions and/or unique visitors to websites on the Internet. Recently editor user:Complainer raised concerns about one of the sources ( Net Applications) and deleted the source from the table. The argument for deleting was this "Netapplications statistics do run against common sense, with MSIE market shares that are double those of any other independent source, including wikipedia itself (and I would liek to add "and my own tracker", but will abstain); these guys [1] make a good argument of how and why they do it. I personally think their presence in the article is embarrassing, to say the least, and am about to remove them. If anybody sees it fit to reinstate them, feel free". I ( user:Useerup) disagreed and reinstated the statistics, noting that "Reverted. Netapplications is *the* most cited source in reliable sources (3rd party) and thus *the* most notable source". The statistics was promptly deleted again and we inched preciously close to an edit war.
User user:Complainer wants to remove the statistics because he/she has concerns about the quality/potential bias. I ( user:Useerup) don't believe that suppressing the most often cited statistics (sample list provided in the discussion) on the subject would be a fair and neutral representation of the topic.
The discussion on the talk page here: Talk:Usage share of web browsers#Source for faking. Please join the discussion with your point of view. Thanks. Useerup ( talk) 21:59, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
Page:
Thomas Jefferson (
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Text: "Overseers were instructed to provide wool for knitting to any negro woman that wanted it".[Pierson, Hamilton W.,(1862). JEFFERSON AT MONTICELLO. THE PRIVATE LIFE OF THOMAS JEFFERSON (1862) p. 63][
[7]
The source is a direct quote from Jefferson's instructions to his foreman, where he wrote, "Give wool to my negro women who desire it, as well those with Mr. Craven as others, but particularly to the house women here." [8]
This sentence was added to the section about how Jefferson treated his slaves. I object to using it because it implies a positive treatment, yet no explanation is provided in the source about why Jefferson wrote this. It could be that his slaves were allowed to earn income by making and selling clothing or it could be that he refused to buy clothing for his slaves and forced them to make their own. Also, I find the use of the term "negro woman" to be objectionable, even if "my negro women" appeared in the original text.
TFD ( talk) 18:45, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
This article is written entirely from very biased and VERY RACIST viewpoint, could this please be looked into. 219.90.242.41 ( talk) 06:57, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
An unregistered user pointed out several potential neutrality/verifiability issues in Blood-spinning ( talk page) and added a POV tag. About a month and a half ago, I made a few revisions attempting to clean up some of the language and improve citations. I haven't heard anything since on the talk page - it's not a heavily trafficked page though - and I'm curious if there are still major neutrality concerns, or if we can consider the issue resolved?
Thanks! SwedishRussian ( talk) 22:57, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
We are currently debating the listing of individual and organizations on the templates Template:Islamophobia and to a lessor degree Template:Racism topics (see Template talk:Islamophobia). What are the criteria for inclusion?
Both individuals and organizations omitted ... Jason from nyc ( talk) 11:16, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
Agreed. I'm out today, anyone want to start one at the Village Pump? I think my suggesting wording is neutral, which it needs to be. Dougweller ( talk) 05:29, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
Now at WP:VPP#RfC:"Should organisations be included in templates such as Islamophobia, Racism and anti-Semitism" Dougweller ( talk) 17:42, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
What are people suggesting about this template, which mentions Jew Watch and Stormfront? What other templates will be affected? Or are just the Islamophobia and racism templates being singled out? Dougweller ( talk) 19:57, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
This article was listed at Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Direct_Democracy_Ireland. Jeff Rudd does have a COI with the topic, but that that does not mean his concerns are not valid. For example, he states that "Direct Democracy Ireland is NOT an Freeman Ideology based organization." The Direct Democracy Ireland article now states: "A number of publications and commentators have highlighted DDI's close links to the Freemen on the land movement and the Christian Solidarity Party. DDI leader Ben Gilroy denied links to the Freeman movement when questioned about them on the Prime Time current affairs show on RTÉ and by the Irish Times.[] This is written in a hopelessly biased way. The opinion of the mysterious number of publications and commentators is presented as fact, fails to characterize what "close links" means, presents Gilroy side as though his is on trial and fails to establish that Gilroy denied each allegation of close links to the Freemen on the land movement made by each of the mysterious number of publications and commentators. "Freeman on the Land" also appears in the Infobox political party, even though it is clear that the Direct Democracy Ireland party does not hold itself out as having "Freeman on the Land" Ideology. This has only served to inflame Jeff Rudd (see Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Direct_Democracy_Ireland. He appears to have a number of other concerns, however the Freeman/Freemen issue appears to be the most pressing. Jeff Rudd joined Wikipedia four days ago. To help get this matter under control, Freeman/Freemen references in the Direct Democracy Ireland article should be removed per NPOV. Given the current short length of the article, I suspect that including anything about Freeman/Freemen in the article would not place the subject in context at this point in time. If neutral wording of claims and views regarding Freeman/Freemen that are written in a fair way and without bias that place the subject in context and are verifiable against high-quality reliable sources, then that information can be added to the article. Until then, it would help bring the situation under control to keep out such POV. Please consider Freeman/Freemen references in the Direct Democracy Ireland article per NPOV for the time being. -- Jreferee ( talk) 02:03, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
I, Jeff Rudd, have asked that the management of Wikipedia to stop anonymous editors of its service, to post ALLEGATIONS up as supposed facts. I have removed at times references that were WRONGLY stated that they were facts (thus proven) when in fact there were just ALLEGATIONS (and NOT proven).
It should be also noted that is ironic that anon' editors are allowed to post inaccurate items up - while those that actually are in such an org and know the truth - in some cases, having been there - that they cannot be allowed to edit and post the truth - with their real name attached and thus stand on public record by what they state. Wikipedia is currently being edited wrongly and deliberately by people from a political party called Sinn Fein. We know its them, we know were its coming from, we know a lot more. we are willing and will if necessary, post more information about them.
I have argued against ANON editors - ANON' editors - to this page. If people wish to post up items to the DDI page, tell them to stop being cowardly and identify themselves if their facts are supposedly true! ...But no, ANON editors are allowed post inaccurate ALLEGATIONS - not proven facts - and pass them off in reference as supposed then truth facts proved, when they are not and no evidence exists that they have been proven true.
For example, on the site in contention, its stated that DDI is of Freeman nature. This is a complete and utter lie. I have repeatedly asked for this to be proven. Sinn Fein advocates (political opposition) have anon' posted ALLEGATIONS of this as referenced - not posted EVER, actual real proof.
Again I state for the record:
There is NO Freeman ideology in the constitution of DDI organisation. There is NO Freeman ideology in the rules of the DDI organisation. There is NO Freeman postings on our forums. There is NO Freeman ideology on our website. There is NO freeman mandate in the Mandate of the DDI organisation. There is NO Freeman direction of any kind in the DDI organisation. Even the founder Ray Whitehead was never a Freeman - and NEVER even ALLEGED to be one!
...Yet a political person we know from another party, is allowed anon' to post that we are of wacky Freeman origin - and ONLY reference ALLEGATIONS, many which their own party has actually put out to try besmirch the name of our growing popular organisation! They continuously reference their own allegations submitted into their own paper tabloids produced from their own offices in Dublin, Ireland!
Does anyone here understand the difference between ALLEGATIONS and PROOF? Allegations are NOT proof - they are just crap made up many a time as tried to be passed as proof. As in the case of Wikipedia and Sinn Fein people posting ALLEGATIONS, they are continuously referencing them into Wikipedia as supposed PROOF - then they are not Proof but just ALLEGATIONS!
The "sourced material" referred to, is ALLEGATIONS - NOT proof. 1000 ALLEGATIONS adds up to nothing if there is no PROOF of any description (and there is NONE), to back it. Yet for some bizarre reason, on this particular page, ALLEGATIONS are incredulously accepted as something proved! Why is this? Its completely nuts to do this! It destroys Wikipedias reputation in regard to posting that are factual.
I have done edits over the last few days - indeed a WIKI moderator (Jreferee) elsewhere has acknowledged already that I have only joined a few days ago - that don't stop others out there however from continuing again to spread lies. The digital dates attached to my edits will be on record for Wiki management to examine at any time of their choosing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeff Rudd (talk • contribs) 12:58, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
Now I am stating FOR THE RECORD AND I WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO THE FOLLOWING: the statement publically made at my personal site at: theruddsite dot com
I publically stand by what I say. I am a public face and chairman of DDI. A position I have been democratically and legally elected to. It (at the very least) should be allowed to be posted that a representative of the organisation, has gone on public record to refute the ALLEGATIONS made - especially the ones made on this site by cowardly always anonymous people from another organisation.
I will continue to state this in the forth coming local and national elections here in Ireland and I will continue to highlight the total wrong inaccuracies in the Wikipedia service allowed be entered by anonymous people from another organisation - one thats highly under question within our own island borders, one that has a very history of killing people over decades including many, many British, Irish and international people.
I repeat:
There is NO Freeman ideology in the constitution of DDI organisation. There is NO Freeman ideology in the rules of the DDI organisation. There is NO Freeman postings on our forums. There is NO Freeman ideology on our website. There is NO freeman mandate in the Mandate of the DDI organisation. There is NO Freeman direction of any kind in the DDI organisation. Even the founder Ray Whitehead was never a Freeman - and NEVER even ALLEGED to be one!
We have repeatedly asked these people to produce evidence - not allegations, EVIDENCE - they have ALL so far been not able to show anywhere in our constitution, etc anything that is related to either.
I request that the always anonymous posters provide PROOF - do they understand that word? I don't think they want to for good reason. - I request PROOF - NOT ALLEGATIONS just more referenced and tried to be passed as concrete proof - that DDI is of Freeman basis. IT IS ABSOLUTELY NOT AND THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE IN DDI WANT NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT STRANGE, OUT OF FATE THINKING!
Its requested by myself and my organisation that the ALLEGATION stated be removed from the summary box on the right side of the DDI page - that we are of Freeman ideology. It has not been proven and cannot be - its simply is false and there is no proof out there or posted up referenced as verified proof by ANY independent body.
WE ABSOLUTELY ARE NOT - NOR DO WE WANT TO BE!
Please note also: ONE person might have links to Freeman thinking - the rest of the other 4,000 plus members and fans do not. ONE person does not automatically make a whole organisation what they are. We have Jewish, Catholic, Protestant and other ideologies and faiths in our organisation - in fact more so in numbers than ONE person what MIGHT be of Freeman thinking.
The statement on the Direct Democracy Ireland page where it states "A number of publications and commentators have highlighted DDI's close links to the Freemen on the land movement and the Christian Solidarity Party" is incorrect. The statement on Wiki of what they allege is incorrect, they allege that ONE person is connect to the daft Freeman stuff - not the org! It is not - there might be one person who is - that that like many others, does not taint the organisation and its many thousands of others, right away.
For the record, there is NO material proof that all the rest of the people in it are of Freeman thinking - there might be material that one person might be - but not all the rest. I ask that the statement on the DDI page be adjusted correctly even along the line of "One of the members has been associated with... - while no verified proof exists that shows the rest are of the same ideology"
If a member tomorrow is associated with a party called "The Monster Raving Looney Party" - does that automatically make the rest of us one too? I don't think so - and I don't think anyone with any sense would think so too! ...However one person (anon' editor) and one org behind them is trying so far successfully espouse that this should be the case. This is absolute nuts, a lie and one posted with a political agenda behind it!
Jeff Rudd ( talk) 12:19, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
The word perfect artice in my opinion biased stating opnions as facts such the suit is perfectly intergated — Preceding unsigned comment added by 183.90.41.20 ( talk) 11:11, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
I would welcome any input in the existing RfC regarding the inclusion of Landmark Worldwide in the above list, a discussion currently taking place at Talk:List of new religious movements#RfC regarding Landmark Worldwide. I would also welcome any comments regarding possibly changing the name of the above list in the section immediately below the RfC, where I propose changing it to more clearly allow the inclusion of groups which were referred to as "cults" or "sects" prior to the academic world developing and using the term NRM. I add the note here because, unfortunately, I believe that there is and has been over the years at least occasional POV pushing for Landmark in the wiki, particularly as it relates to criticism of Landmark. John Carter ( talk) 16:26, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
Which is more neutral: "gay people" or "persons with homosexual inclinations"/"with a same-sex attraction"? Discussion here. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 23:35, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
The article Aesthetic Realism is in violation of WP:NPOV in numerous ways. This has been a long-term problem. I will describe its recent history. Beginning in July 2013, I started trying to improve the article, believing that it was both poorly written and biased in favor of the controversial philosophy it is about. I initially made 38 edits. Some of them simply corrected grammar and formatting. Others were more substantial, removing unsourced claims (for example, that gay men and lesbians succeeded in changing their sexual orientations through studying Aesthetic Realism) and eccentric and unencyclopedic language (such as the use of the expression "changed from homosexuality" to describe these alleged changes in sexual orientation). All of these changes were reverted by LoreMariano here, with the excuse that they had not been discussed beforehand. Note that her edit, in addition to restoring numerous errors of grammar and formatting, also restored the following unsourced text: "Some men who began to study to change from homosexuality discontinued their study. Others, who at one time stated they had changed, later decided to live a gay lifestyle. Still others indicate that the change from homosexuality they first experienced in the 1970s and 80s is authentic and continues to the present day." LoreMariano subsequently edit warred in an attempt to restore that material, as seen here. Eventually, the material was removed by Cavann (seen here) and LoreMariano and other editors accepted this. I was also able to correct the article's formatting and some of its grammar (although Aesthetic Realist editors insisted, for no good reason, on retaining some incorrect grammar, as seen for example here).
The article still has numerous problems. I shall describe only two of the worst.
The first involves the removal of a link to the Sexual orientation change efforts article. The link was initially added by me here. The link was removed here by Nathan43, one of the most aggressive and disruptive editors at Aesthetic Realism. Nathan43's edit summary ("Link removed because it deliberately diverts attention to article supportive of editor's own views") indicates that his removal of the link had no basis in policy, and was simply motivated by his own personal dislike of and disagreement with the contents of the Sexual orientation change efforts article (this was what led me to describe his edit as vandalism). The removal of the link was discussed on the talk page. The archived discussion can be seen here. As can be seen, I made several arguments for including the link, arguments which the Aesthetic Realist editors ignored. I pointed out, for example, that despite the insistence of Aesthetic Realist editors that Aesthetic Realism has nothing to do with conversion therapy or sexual orientation change efforts, the Aesthetic Realism article is within the Sexual orientation change efforts category and the link should therefore be perfectly appropriate. No reply to this argument was ever made.
The other problem concerns the fact that much of the article is written in the peculiar jargon favored by Aesthetic Realists, rather than in neutral and encyclopedic language. This has been the subject of a long, inconclusive discussion that can be seen here.
The continuing problems with the article have a simple cause, which frankly is that most of the editors interested in it are Aesthetic Realists and edit in an extremely biased fashion, removing any material that they perceive as being critical of Aesthetic Realism. It is a disgrace to Wikipedia that they have largely been able to get away with this. I would encourage other editors to take an interest in this article's problems and see what can be done to rectify them. FreeKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 08:45, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
After an unsolicited and purely curiosity-based reading of the page on internet astro-turfing my personal impression was that the page, while very elaborate and well-footnoted, still left the reader with a distinctly less-than-nuetral impression of the article's point-of-view. One must acknowledge the presence of sourced and properly-presented factual evidence from a number of opposing perspectives the overall narrative remained overtly favorable to one particular POV. This commenter was appreciative of the efforts obviously employed by the author(s?) to maintain the NPOV but felt that those efforts fell only slightly short and since the page had received such responsible attentions it deserved to be informed that it might have over-compensated in one direction away from the ideal of a NPOV. Sincerely, and w/o prejudice, tobiathan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.81.166.102 ( talk) 23:05, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
Hello all.
Civil society currently states that "The term entered public discourse in the United States and around the world in the 1990s in effect of intensive work of communist propaganda in Poland" in the lead. Aside from the "in effect of"... it sounds like the sort of claim that needs good sourcing. Is this neutral?
Biosthmors (
talk) 09:12, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
It's in the body of the article now. I moved it down, but it's still there. Biosthmors ( talk) 17:39, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
There is a discussion at Talk:Jewish Bolshevism#RfC: Is Jewish Bolshevism a conspiracy theory?.
TFD ( talk) 16:35, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
Jewish bolshevism, according to the reliable sources that discuss the term, was a theory that the Jews were behind the Communist conspiracy which, along with Jewish capitalists, bankers and mainstream media, Masons and the illuminati, was plotting world control. The main issue is whether we should restrict our sources to publications that discuss the theory, or provide detailed information about the "disproportionate representation" of Jews in Communism, which according to some editors is the reason why the theory developed. TFD ( talk) 21:35, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
Jdcrutch ( talk) 06:20, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
In August 2007 an editor added a paragraph[Sun Myung Moon] concerning financial aid given to [[:Liberty University]] ([[Special:EditPage/Liberty University|edit]] | [[Talk:Liberty University|talk]] | [[Special:PageHistory/Liberty University|history]] | [[Special:ProtectPage/Liberty University|protect]] | [[Special:DeletePage/Liberty University|delete]] | [{{fullurl:Special:Whatlinkshere/Liberty University|limit=999}} links] | [{{fullurl:Liberty University|action=watch}} watch] | logs | views) through two Unification Church organisations. Although other critical or controversial material has been removed along the way, this stayed in the article, with modifications, until it was removed 6 days ago with an edit summary stating "Removed debt buy-out as only founding endowments are typically included in university entries and not individual contributions". I reinstated and the original editor, rather than revert me, started a discussion at Talk:Liberty University. He revised his objection, saying that ""Removed debt buy-out as only founding endowments are included in university entries and individual contributions outside of endowments are never included" and pointing out that it isn't in our university guidelines or in any other university page. I suggested that that was not an argument that would hold weight and that the only argument against it would be NPOV, specifically WP:UNDUE and since then that has been the main focus of the debate. As I understand the discussion, we have people who are saying that this is not a real issue nor controversial (or at least it hasn't been shown to be so), and would not be of interest to readers. There's a side debate about whether the main report as published in the LA Times is WP:PRIMARY and if so it shouldn't be used (and at the moment it isn't in the article anyway), but I think it can be used.
It's also been suggested that "The involvement shifts to Jerry Falwell and Moon, and Falwell is not Liberty. "
The current version says that "the school was not aware of News World's connection to Moon when it obtained the loan through a broker" and that Falwell said the source would not affect his ministry. I'm not suggesting that it did.
The story is reported in a number of reliable sources. The LA Times article which is by [[Robert Parry {journalist}]], the Washington Post by their own staff writers who use Parry but also discovered a later loan [12], Christianity Today [13] are just three. Parry says (and this is not in the article) that " Desperate for an infusion of cash, Falwell and two associates made an unannounced trip to South Korea in January 1994, where they solicited help from Unification Church representatives, according to documents on file in a court case in Bedford County, Va. Months later, Moon's organization funneled $3.5 million to Liberty University through a clandestine channel. The money was delivered through one of Moon's front groups, the Women's Federation for World Peace. It then passed through the Christian Heritage Foundation, a Virginia nonprofit corporation that was buying up--and forgiving--Liberty's debt."
Both the Washington Post and the LA Times articles say that the University was in a financial crisis, although our article only says "helped to financially stabilize".
I don't think that WP:UNDUE or WP:SCOPE are reasons to remove this from the article. It doesn't appear to have been a minor issue (or a non-issue as it's been described on the talk page). I've just noted a section on Finances which mentions only current finances. In fact, this help from Moon came after a serious financial crisis caused by the 1991Virginia Supreme Court ruling that Liberty University was ineligible for a tax-free bond issue because of Liberty's "pervasively sectarian" religious character. This was covered for a while in the article, but removed [14] with an edit summary saying ": I simply deleted the 1989 bond issue section. There were no citations at all for the section, it stated falsely that Liberty was named in the court case, and the second paragraph did not even mention Liberty University." That seems to be inaccurate, the university was named. [15]. It could easily have been cited and if I'd seen that I would have reverted and cited it.
It's my view that these issues should be reflected in the article somewhere - and if we don't, their omission will be what violates our NPOV policy. As an aside, the editor removing the Moon material and I had a discussion about another issue last year which you can see on the talk page, where we both agreed that if a lawsuit was noteworthy it should be included, but that at the moment it wasn't. I think that principle applies to this issue. Dougweller ( talk) 13:03, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
This RfC would benefit from comments by uninvolved editors. David in DC ( talk) 18:14, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
A new editor and editor of this article White Hispanic and Latino Americans insists on inserting personal opinions, own life experiences, blog content and blog references into this article. He needs more help/guidance than I can provide. Thanks Hmains ( talk) 20:06, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
Convoluted article about several trials and investigations during which "the Department of Justice was accused of deliberately attempting to drive Inslaw into Chapter 7 liquidation; and of distributing and selling stolen software for covert intelligence operations of foreign governments such as Canada, Israel, Singapore, Iraq, Egypt, and Jordan; and of becoming directly involved in murder." It has wording such as "Yet beneath the surface of this background was a belief that the primary focus of certain top-level individuals within the DoJ was to perpetuate international, covert intelligence operations" sourced to [19] and "Meanwhile, the government began highly suspicious activities to force Inslaw into Chapter 7 liquidation" sourced to [20] (which I'm loathe to add, seems copyvio) and a mirrored version at [21] and [22]. There's more pov language and the whole article seems to be making a point. I've also removed some material added evidently just to attack a BLP. Dougweller ( talk) 10:05, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
Hello, I would like to ask that someone review the final paragraph of the Spill response fund section of the Deepwater Horizon oil spill article. This paragraph was added a few months ago and relies primarily on an op-ed piece from The New York Times. Myself and another editor both raised concerns that the wording is not neutral and may need to draw from other sources. Would editors from here be able to review the material and see if it seems appropriate and neutral, particularly with regards to the source used?
I have tried to address this using the article's talk page and, but the discussion has not been very active and a consensus has not been reached. Can an editor here please look at this and let me know what they think? I should also note that I am BP's representative on Wikipedia, so I have not and will not make any edits to this article. Thanks. Arturo at BP ( talk) 16:45, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
}} Requested remedy: We request independent evaluation of this issue. If it is decided that 'administered' (or some other term) is a preferable non-partisan term over the more prejudicial word 'occupied' then we request that this replacement be used (and protected) to describe 'Golan' in the "Rujm el-Hiri" article.
The article may be found at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rujm_el-Hiri The article's talk page may be found at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Rujm_el-Hiri Though the issue of 'occupied' and related language is discussed in various places on this talk page, the most current discussion (between Nableezy, Zero0000, and myself) is in the section titled: "Partisan Politics does not belong here: WP:POV and WP:OR"
Summary: The article's topic is a 5,000 year old archeological site which has nothing to do with the modern Arab-Israeli conflict (since the site was constructed before 'Israel' or "Arabs' even existed :-). A group of editors, e.g.: Nableezy, Zero0000, Tiamut, Supreme Deliciousness, have insisted on using the phrase 'Israeli-occupied' with a link to the Wikipedia article on the political history of 'Israeli-occupied territories' to modify 'Golan' in the Rujm el-Hiri article. Some editors find the term 'occupied' to be violation of NPOV in this context, since the Israeli government considers the area to be a part of its own country, and (as the map displayed within the article shows) it may be better described as 'disputed' territory. This NPOV issue has become the focus of a small edit-war. I recently did a quick 'google' search and found others who had similar conflicts with these editors (and others who have a reputation of working with them as a concerted group on anti-Zionist issues) over the same prejudicial use of the word 'occupied' and found that some other editors in the past have proposed that 'administered' would be a more neutral alternative to the more politically-loaded term 'occupied.' The use of 'administered' was rejected by Nableezy, et al, who reinserted the 'occupied' language and link, just as Zero0000 had done the previous day.
............
The diffs of the two edits may be found at: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Rujm_el-Hiri&diff=569666323&oldid=569660529
The (edited for compactness) text of these diffs:
Rujm el-Hiri: Difference between revisions ...
Revision as of 01:53, 22 August 2013 (edit) 143.232.129.69 (talk) [Note from Ronreisman: '143.232.129.69' is listed because I forgot to sign-in before making the edit] (Changed 'Israeli-occupied' to more neutral phrase 'Israeli-administered' in an effort to minimize biased language -- see talk page)
Rujm el-Hiri ( Arabic: رجم الهري, Rujm al-Hīrī; Hebrew: גִּלְגַּל רְפָאִים Gilgal Refā'īm) is an ancient megalithic monument, consisting of concentric circles of stone with a tumulus at center. [1] It is located in Israeli-administered Golan Heights ....
UNDONE: Latest revision as of 02:47, 22 August 2013 (edit) (undo) (thank) Nableezy (talk | contribs) (Undid revision 569660529 by 143.232.129.69 (talk restore accurate terminology)
Rujm el-Hiri ( Arabic: رجم الهري, Rujm al-Hīrī; Hebrew: גִּלְגַּל רְפָאִים Gilgal Refā'īm) is an ancient megalithic monument, consisting of concentric circles of stone with a tumulus at center. [1] It is located in the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights ...
............
This insertion of 'occupied' has occurred in other parts of the article and stimulated editor controversy in the past. For instance:
Revision as of 12:39, 26 November 2011 Biosketch (Rmv "recently" commentary not in any of the sources.) ... The site was cataloged during an Israeli archaeological survey carried out in 1967-1968, after the Six-Day War....
Revision as of 18:37, 26 November 2011 Tiamut (talk | contribs) (→History and purpose: missing detail about occupation of syrian territory)
The site was cataloged during an
Israeli archaeological survey carried out in 1967-1968, after
Israel occupied Syria's Golan Heights during the
Six-Day War.
.............
Link to the current Talk:Rujm_el-Hiri#Partisan_Politics_does_not_belong_here:_WP:POV_and_WP:OR section. (copied text replaced by link) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ronreisman ( talk • contribs)
First of all, it would be extremely helpful if the talk page section was linked instead of copied and pasted. It was insanely difficult for me to make sense of the text. Also, could the original poster please clarify what is being requested? Thanks! Leujohn ( talk, stalk me?) 18:18, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
I'm the 'original poster' and the 'request' is to reach a respectful consensus regarding a 'neutral' alternative to the partisan use of 'occupied' -- and accompanying link to a controversial political-territorial topic -- inserted into an article where none of these political issues are mentioned (eg 'Rujm el-Hiri' is an archeology topic). I agree with Zero000 that 'controlled' (*without* political article link) is an acceptable alternative. Do we have consensus? Ronreisman ( talk) 00:23, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
"Occupied" is the correct and neutral word. Anything else is misleading. -- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 03:01, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
First, I agree with the result, but disagree with the reasoing of Supreme Deliciousness ( talk · contribs) above. In my view, this isn't a battle of which is RS is more reliable than the other RS's. Rather, this debate has to do with which RS's carry the greatest WP:WEIGHT.
Second, AgadaUrbanit ( talk · contribs) seems to imply that the professional archeological literature generally has the #1 claim to "greatest weight". I disagree with this implication for the following reasons.
For those reasons, I do not agree that the professional archeological RS's are the RS's of "greatest WP:Weight".
Third, as a general principle, intellectual integrity admits the possibility that omission of well-documented facts can, in some circumstances, be a form of POV. In this case, Israeli occupation of this specific locale is well-documented in a wide range of RS's. Since we are neither a professional journal writing for experts nor a hard bound resource, we should describe locations in a way that makes sense for the widest general audience. For Lake Superior shipwrecks, that means stating whether the locale is in US or Canadian waters. That's easy, because it doesn't push emotional political buttons. If that logic makes sense for Lake Superior shipwrecks, true NPOV requires applying the same logic for locations in regions of conflicting international claims. In the article under discussion, that means a simple statement of the widely-documented fact that this spot is in the "Israeli-Occupied" part of the Golan, rather than a well-intentioned omission of this fact. Plus we are supposed to avoid ambiguities if possible. The site is not in the Syrian controlled/occupied/claimed/whatever part of the Golan Heights, but the Israeli. Instead of the ambiguous "Golan" why not just say "Middle East", or for that matter "Planet Earth"? No, our task is to be NPOV matter-of-fact and avoid ambiguity. This spot is considered, by nearly the entire international community, to be "Israeli-occupied", and omitting this is at worst a form of POV-by-intentional-omission and at best creates a good-faith-but-nonetheless-impermissible ambiguity.
Fourth, upon the suggestion of this Wikipedia guideline, I took a peek at the CIA World Factbook, which says "Golan Heights is Israeli-occupied". They appear to have less motive to say one thing and not another than professionals writing for other professionals in such a way that greases the wheels with the controlling authorities when they want to do field research at the site itself. NewsAndEventsGuy ( talk) 16:25, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
Article:
Fraz Wahlah
Discussion:
Talk:Fraz Wahlah#Problems with the article
This article is in poor condition and some IP editors (probably its one user using 2-3 IPs) regularly add non-neutral content that even fails verification. I have tried to address the apparent issues with the article but these IP regularly revert back. I have tried to explain the problems on the talk but to no avail. Can someone please take a look whether this article in current shape adheres to NPOV, specially the last section titled "The Flag-bearer - BBC". -- SMS Talk 17:01, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
At Nina Rosenwald ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) an editor changed a sentence in the lead which read "Since 2000, Rosenwald and her sister, Elizabeth Varet, have donated over $2.8 million to "organizations that fan the flames of Islamophobia." to one that read "Since 2000, Rosenwald and her sister, Elizabeth Varet, have donated over $2.8 million to organizations that are staunchly pro-Israel." I revised this and objected on the talk page. The same editor has changed it so that it now reads "Rosenwald's philanthropy to organizations opposing islamization has led her detractors to label her as "anti-Muslim" and "islamophobic"". The source [23] doesn't say 'opposing islamization' and 'islamization' is in fact an extremely pov word often used by anti-Muslims, so clearly not appropriate here.
In addition, an new section has been created, "Critics of philanthropy". That's clearly a pov section heading, the criticism is that she funds anti-Muslim groups, and using 'philanthropy' to mean funding anti-Muslim groups is not exactly NPOV. The text has gone from one pov statement - " Commentators have criticized Rosenwald for her support of pro-Israel organizations"(which is the editor translating 'anti-Muslim' to 'pro-Israel' to another statement that repeats the bit about "organizations opposing islamization". Again, this is misrepresenting the source (same source) in a pov manner. Dougweller ( talk) 20:49, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
I think it is WP:OR for us to decide which donations to which organizations are philanthropy or not. Philanthropy is for the love of humanity. Blumenthal's family is certainly doing it for what they perceive as the benefit of humanity. We may disagree with her interpretation thereof, but that is opinion, just as we may disagree with the goals or methods of any charity or non-profit. Further, the meaning of the word has morphed over time to generally cover endowments, trusts and other donations, or involvement with non-profits. . There is no question that these are in fact endowments and trusts. from or own philanthropy article "By the early 21st century the word "nonprofit" was generally accepted as synonymous with philanthropy". These are non profits. That said, consensus may certainly determine what wording to use that is supported by the sources - but there is no policy based reason against using that term. Gaijin42 ( talk) 22:06, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Pursuant to Dougweller's concerns, I've been looking at the report that Max Blumenthal used from the Center for American Progress, called "Fear, Inc.". A couple things: 1) the quoted phrase "organizations that fan the flames of Islamophobia" does not occur in "Fear, Inc." at all, let alone in relation to the Rosenwalds. The closest thing to it is on page 94, "Yet MEMRI’s selective translations of Arab media fan the flames of Islamophobia." AFAICT, the "Fear, Inc." report does not link MEMRI with Rosenwald largesse. 2) Nina Rosenwald is not mentioned in the "Fear, Inc." report. -- 72.66.30.115 ( talk) 02:41, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
While this may be a mistake on the part of the copyeditors at The Nation, it doesn't change the sense of the quote for our purposes, so it's not a problem for us. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 07:11, 1 October 2013 (UTC)Rosenwald and her sister Elizabeth Varet, who also directs the family foundation, have donated more than $2.8 million since 2000 to organizations that "fan the flames of Islamophobia."
The lead section should not be written with quotes from those of the opposite side of the political spectrum, i.e. the Nation. This is highly inflammatory and partisan. It should be generic "supports conservative causes" with controversy within the article if we aspire to being an encyclopedia and not a tabloid.. A good example of an encyclopedia-type lead is in the George Soros article: "Soros is a well-known supporter of progressive-liberal political causes." It would cheapen the article if we put "Radical anti-American billionaire George Soros is a major backer of a left-wing group that is funneling money to the Occupy Wall Street movement" from the right-wing and venerable conservative journal Human Events [26]. Let's take the high road. Jason from nyc ( talk) 11:35, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
We still have IP 72 claiming that Rosenwald focuses on "supporting human rights and democracy around the world" while trying his or her very hardest to downplay all reliably sourced negative material (refusing, for instance, to attribute a newspaper's words to that newspaper and instead naming the author, perhaps with the hope that a casual reader will assume the writer is a polemicist instead of a journalist). Please continue to keep an eye on this article; whether a financial conflict of interest or simply a user with an ax to grind, WP is being exploited here. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 01:14, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
This article's Reception section consists of a statement that almost all the reviews of this musical theatre production have been raves, followed by 17 pull-quotes of rave reviews for various productions. That isn't a "critical reception" section of an encyclopedia article, that's marketing. I removed the quotes as violating WP:PROMO and WP:QUOTEFARM, but another editor edit-warred to restore them. Since such unrelenting postivity concerning the show (which I haven't seen, but which I'm sure is just fine) cannot possibly be allowed under the WP:NPOV policy, I'd like editors from here to take a look. It seems to me that material that violates three different policies should be removed, but the editor who restored them (who seems to have ownership issues with the article) insists that because they are referenced, which they are, they must stay until someone writes a balanced Reception section. I disagree - they should be removed and the writing of that section can start from scratch. As long as that extensive list of positive quotes is in the article, there is no impetus for anyone, especially a fan of the show, to write a policy-compliant section. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 05:12, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
Today, within 81 minutes, my NPOV warning tag at the article Federal Assault Weapons Ban was reverted. I would appreciate a third opinion. Am I being unreasonable to think that my opinion of a NPOV violation involved in an difficult ongoing discussion on the article talk page deserves a warning tag in the article space? I am of the opinion that the NPOV tag is a good thing in that it alerts readers of the article to the ongoing NPOV discussion on the talk page. SaltyBoatr get wet 16:44, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
"The specific problem is systemic editor bias" If that's the case, then NPOVN is not the right venue for resolving the problems. -- Ronz ( talk) 22:11, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
The water fluoridation article is written as if water fluoridation is not a controversial topic. It's tone is to present as fact the benefits of water fluoridation, without giving weight to contradictory studies. Campoftheamericas ( talk) 19:05, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
/info/en/?search=Talk:Abu_Zubaydah for the Talk discusssion.
My comments and the comments of others suggest that it is unlikely that anyone would dispute that this article is exceedingly biased. This is discussed in great detail in the talk page link given above. It is my sincere desire that, if this article cannot be deleted, then at the very least it should have a NPOV banner added to it to warn the unsuspecting reader that this is a very biased presentation of the circumstances surrounding the case of Abu Zabaydah and GITMO in general. Detailing all the problems would take pages. Suffice to say, for NPOV banner purposes, that it should not take long to discern the article is severely biased, makes numerous assertions that would be difficult to substantiate under any circumstances (such as someone's state of mind), and presents a number of conclusions that are not apparently warranted by the cited data. Based on other articles I've seen in Wikipedia with NPOV banners, this article would seem to be an appropriate candidate for such a banner. Edward Carr Franks, PhD 19:28, 2 October 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edfranks ( talk • contribs)
summary:
my preferred solution: To add a phrase in order that the occupation was planned as a response to to other Arab armies attack only. (as said in the source in the same page).
note: If needed, I may quote the whole relevant page (Morris,2008, p.319 ) Ykantor ( talk) 17:46, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
Parts of the biography of two Young Turk leaders, Nazım Bey and Mehmed Reshid, is being removed by HouseOfArtaxiad and MarshallBagramyan. [29] [30] Can someone restore the info back?
There is a misunderstanding, I had added the following information based on a study on the Armenian genocide by Ugur Ungor, a Dutch scholar from Kurdish ancestry who is one of the leading researchers on the Armenian Genocide. He is not a Turk or a denialist but a promoter of the Genocide. Other authors relate a similar story to what I added and it is not anti Armenian at all. Both of these persons, Nazım Bey and Mehmed Reshid, were related to the Armenian Genocide, the older versions of their articles were dominated by their role in the genocide with few personal information about them or their motives. It was a very black white presentation. Important aspects of their biography were missing. Such as that they were both Muslims expelled from their homeland by Christian armies. Reshid descended from an ethnically cleansed ( Ethnic cleansing of Circassians) Circassian family by the Russians. There is a relevant relation between his family history and his fear to be again ethnically cleansed by the invading Russians and the Ottoman Armenians whom he considered to be Russian allies. Nazım was a succesful resident of Thessaloniki but was imprisoned and maltreated in a Greek prison during his towns capture in the Balkan Wars. After his release he became a radical Christian hating Turkish nationalist. Ofcourse these earlier events do not mean these persons were justified to commit genocide on the Armenians or anyone, this was only added as an explanation for their personal motives and early family history.
HouseOfArtaxiad was reverted when he first removed the text but in his second deletion gave the following (wrong and WP:OR) reasons:
"The same Turk author also wrote justifications for Mehmed Reshid's psychopathic tendencies. It's clear he is just trying to justify mass murders. If either of them were mentally scarred, they should be the ones to write about it, not someone else.)"
Declaring an author unreliable because of his ethnicity seems racist, btw he is Kurdish, he is not trying to justify but explains their motives, demanding that Nazim and Reshid should write about their personal problems is WP:OR
"His family could not have moved there in the 1860s if he himself was born in 1873. Some minor fixes"
Ungor's source states that he was born in the Caucasus to a Circassian family who moved to the Ottoman empire. [33], [34]
Ungor is a reliable academic source and is used on many wiki articles. Some of his sentences regarding Nazim and Reshid have been removed by because they probably give a less vilified personality. The problems is that these persons are being demonized by selective info. I do not think anyone but an admin has the ability to convince HouseOfArtaxiad and MarshallBagramyan so pardon me for not beginning an edit war.
Here is the original online page of Ungor's book regarding Nazim. [35] and here regarding Reshid [36] Thank you for your time. Fatbob5 ( talk) 16:49, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
At Nina Rosenwald an editor has added scare quotes to the word 'Islamophobic', stating that "re-wrote sentence to remove its tautological ring; "islamophobia" needs to stay in quotes to show Wikipedia recognizes it is a politically loaded term, vague, controversial and deprecated (by the AP)." I'd already objected to scarequotes on the talk page and another editor had removed them, but since then the scare quotes were replaced for this particular word. I'm not at all convinced that it is NPOV to select words in this way for scare quotes in order to show how Wikipedia feels about the word. Dougweller ( talk) 20:39, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
( edit conflict):::::::Andy is right. There's a fallacy here in assuming that Islamophobia is some sort of psychological phobia. That's akin to the argument "I can't be anti-Semitic, some of my best friends are Arabs". It isn't a phony word. Phobia in fact is defined as "an extreme or irrational fear" in my OED, not as an anxiety disorder. But you've been told that already. The word 'anti-Semitic' is also pejorative and for some people controversial, as is 'racism', etc. But we should not be using scare quotes for them either. Dougweller ( talk) 18:31, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
Or maybe not labeling, but we have " Media and organizations self-described as leftist, progressive or Muslim, including The Nation, the Center for American Progress, and The American Muslim, have categorized her and the Gatestone Institute as anti-Muslim and "Islamophobic". The 'self-described' bit was added by the IP, and it leaves the reader unclear about which was self-described as what. If you read it in order it's technically accurate, but is it acceptable? Dougweller ( talk) 09:05, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
Article: /info/en/?search=Windows_8
Bias in opening paragraphs: Windows 8 is a complete joke of an operating system developed by Microsoft for use on personal computers... Windows 8 introduced stupid major changes to the operating system's platform...
Suggest removing all edits by user 81.129.178.84 who introduced the bias. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmhattingh ( talk • contribs) 09:11, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
This is a "brokerage" operating out of a small country, which has been pretty universally excoriated as a scam operation. Nonetheless, eager editors have been adding and deleting content, some of it possibly original research and some of it certainly lacking in NPOV, so that the length swings by thousands of characters in a single edit; and a handful of editor keep trying to trim it back to look like this is just another busines, with dissatisfied customers and quibbling regulators. There's also what I see as a disquieting tendency to put undue emphasis on the Jewish connections of one of the firm's principals. Could we get a few new eyeballs here? -- Orange Mike | Talk 13:25, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
Does this article read like an advertisement for Sanger's post-Wikipedia projects to anyone else? In particular, the Citizendium section seems quite questionable. Adam Cuerden ( talk) 01:22, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
As a breaking news event, there are editor(s) who appear to be solely interested in pimping every detail that hits any newswire in what appears to be an effort to stoke any potential flames. More outside eyes would be helpful. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:29, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
This article was apparently created by searching for "Grammarly" and using all results regardless of the quality of the source or the appropriateness for use in an encyclopedia article on the subject. While we've made some progress in previous discussions, there are still many NPOV and related ( WP:NOT, WP:RS, WP:PSTS) problems.
A detailed breakdown of all the remaining problems is here. I'm recommending this version. The talk page is covered with previous attempts at addressing the concerns. -- Ronz ( talk) 16:10, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
A couple examples:
We're making progress. Currently disputed are: -- Ronz ( talk) 15:42, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
Grammarly Inc. collaborated with The New York Times,[12] AARP The Magazine and other organizations to celebrate the National Day on Writing in 2012.[5][undue weight? – discuss]
Grammarly was also nominated in April 2013 for Best Web Services & Applications in the 17th Annual Webby Awards, coming third place among five finalists.[15][16]
It appears that the creator of this article, and the person fighting against all the changes, may be a paid editor. Discussion here. -- Ronz ( talk) 16:32, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
A few days ago the article Washington Redskins name controversy was tagged for not being neutral. I am the major contributor to this article, but not by intention. I edit the article on the larger issue Native American mascot controversy and only add to the other article when I run across something specific to the "Redskins" that I cannot integrate into the main article. An editor who has not contributed to the article added the tag, but has not done nothing else. No one else has participated in the discussion, so I plan to remove the tag after one week, but I welcome other input. The problem is that the issue may have two sides, but only one is substantially represented in reliable sources. FriendlyFred ( talk) 21:24, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
A YouTube video containing a presentation about editing Wikipedia, apparently under the auspices of the James Randi Educational Foundation, with some rather disturbing content. The presenter is Susan Gerbic, whom I believe, without being completely sure, is User:Sgerbic.
The video is more than an hour long and can't be guaranteed to remain on YouTube indefinitely. But it contains evidence of offsite collusion on Facebook (at 40:44) and elsewhere to impose a skeptical POV on Wikipedia articles. She also gives advice as to how these targeting editors can avoid looking like single purpose accounts (29:20) and brags about running off editors with different views. (32:10 et seq.). The video claims that she has established an offsite network coordinating more than 90 editors (4:22) to impose a "skeptical" POV on a large number of articles. She also says that she has successfully used Wikipedia to drive web traffic to the Randi foundation's website, and started articles about its members. (ca. 50:00 et. seq.)
Lawyering and improvised rulemaking to prevent paranormal literatures from being cited as evidence of the substance of paranormal beliefs is a longstanding problem. Let's face it, claiming that an astrology textbook is an "unreliable source", being "in universe" because it assumes astrology is worthy of study, is transparent sophistry, and unproductive lawyering of the worst kind. Our page Aries (astrology) contains next to nothing about what astrologers think about Aries, a subject with a vast literature. This POV-pushing offsite project has done readers a disservice. - Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003!
If you'd like people to investigate problematic editing by "guerilla skeptics", could you provide some diffs that you think are problematic? bobrayner ( talk) 12:34, 26 October 2013 (UTC)