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The section on the attack of the mausoleum needs more de-POVifying. 69.62.243.48 ( talk) 03:58, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
I have voiced concern that the Pope Julius III article givews too much weight to rumours and should focu on the scandal involving the Cardinal-nephew more. I attempted to add a tag, but three editors would immediately remove the tag, stating that my concerns were "wrong and everyone says so". Given that the tag was removed o quickly, it would never allow other editors to join in the dicussion, and I take offense to the notion that any concerns about nuetrality would be described so harshly to an eidtor. One editor claimed to be an admin, and the admin went on to say that if I continued to voice my concerns I could be blocked {"I will make sure you are blocked temporarily edit-warring and disruptive editing"), and further seemed to epress the notion that as an admin his opinion mattered more ("you have been told by a number of editors, one of whom an administrator (me), that you were wrong") and seems to look at newer editors with disdain ("I understand that the combination of zeal and only 134 edits can lead to this"). So I found this page ad hope someone can perhaps help voice my conerns without further threats.
The article quotes, or at least purports to quote, several authors and contemporaries of the pontiff. I have some concerns of this as they are all English quotes given in the article and some of the authors are German and the contemporaries are Italian, German and French. These quotes, many of which are written by enemies of the Pope or the Church, are weaved into the sentences as though they were undisputed fact. While many have questioned the relationship between Pope and Cardinal-nephew, there are just as many doubts. This is evident as many of the contemporary rumours contradict one another, it is a known fact that the Cardinal-nephew was having affairs with woman that came to the Papal Court, and usually a man interested in 14year olds (the age the Pope first met the Cardinal-nephew) is not inteested in 20-somethings (the age that the Cardinal-nephew was reciveing the many gifts and papal offices). It may simply have been a childless uncle showering his adoptive nephew with gifts since he would have no children of his own. Either way, it looked bad, and the incident was used against the Church quite effectively--and this point should be the focus of the section, not the quotes about unproven rumour. I am not saying remove all of it, but simply not to put undue weight with it. Sentences that refer to the pope's "sodomitical affairs" are way out of line. Bellae artes ( talk) 08:54, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
This article repeats unverifiable claims as true and has citations that are circular. 76.21.107.221 ( talk) 20:19, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
user "gun powder ma" is blatantly violating npov on the convivencia-page. he/she wrote a *huge* criticism-section using 3 sources, fernández-morera, mark cohen and bernard lewis. i dunno anything about fernández-morera but cohen and lewis are misused as their views are much more nuanced. cherry-picking of quotes is against our guidelines: "editors, while naturally having their own points of view, should strive in good faith to provide complete information, and not to promote one particular point of view over another. as such, the neutral point of view does not mean exclusion of certain points of view, but including all notable and verifiable points of view". and further: "editing from a neutral point of view (npov) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources". thus, it is required of "gun powder ma" to edit in a neutral manner.
also, content from criticism-sections should be integrated into to the main text, as criticism-sections are highly pov-loaded. but wait... there is *no* main text. the page just has a lead and a huge criticism-section! a criticism-section written by "gun powder ma" himself/herself, where he/she has used cherry picked quotes. the academic consensus regarding the issue is clear: the la convivencia period was progressive (although not an utopia), when compared to other contemporary christian/non-christian regimes of the time. he's also involved in original research because he's adding historical incidents, by random, that has nothing to do with "criticism of the concept". to makes matter worse, he is trying to edit-war a "segregation-section on the "islam-in-europe"-page. [1] user:gun_powder_ma has no intentions to contribute in a neutral manner.-- altetendekrabbe 05:01, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
This edit is highly problematic. I don't even think there is any serious debate that Jews weren't treated better under Islam than they were in Christian Europe, I have never heard any Jews or Europeans make that claim before. -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 17:08, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
I have been at loggerheads with an editor for two weeks. I have been to AN/I in an effort to deal with what I considered disruptive editing. I was set straight that it was a content dispute. I have asked a few times on this noticeboard for help regarding WP:DUE, but to no avail. Today the other editor has attempted to use tags to discredit the material I have placed in the article. First he used template:Connected contributor after it was shown to be inappropriate, the editor tried template:COI. This time I went to the "conflict of interest noticeboard" and a third editor came and removed the template. All along the talk page has been a constant flow of accusations, which spill over to my talk page. Now the editor has tried another tag to discredit the material, this time he has marked a section with the template:POV. Can I get a ruling on this use of the POV template, please? This seems to me to be an editor out of control. -- spin control 18:24, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
I have appealed to this noticeboard three times for an independent voice on the conflict I've been involved with. Not a word. Is neutrality no longer of much concern? -- spin control 06:11, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
A note here that based on this edit I have informed user:Doktorspin that given his use of profanities I can not engage in discussion with him. I have zero tolerance for profanity. Wikipedia editors should not be subject to fear of profanity-based retorts as they discuss content. History2007 ( talk) 08:32, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
You can maintain whatever you like, except such disruptive editing. I fairly cited the source for what it says and you didn't even bother to check it out before you attacked it with a hatchet. You had decided that he was one of the good authors who agreed with your views. That's not how WP:DUE works. Novak might support the 49 CE date, but not everything he says is majority view. You are trying to use WP:DUE to enforce your views and you have gone to lengths to force them, including promiscuous use of tags to make accusations and reverts that remove good sources. That is disruptive. You clearly have ownership issues and you continue to harass me on my talk page. And you talk about behavior that deserves a block! -- spin control 19:28, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
The article Rachel Corrie is currently under constant attacks by POV pushers promoting far-right views, labelling her as "anti-semitic" and so on [2]. Most recently, User:Activism1234 removed Amnesty International's sourced reaction [3] to an Israeli court's actions, while adding numerous reactions of obscure bloggers, far-right fringe groups nowhere near Amnesty's notability. [4]. His edit also includes POV labelling of the UN Special Rapporteur, and removal of the obvious description of her as a peace activist (she is listed in the peace activist article). JonFlaune ( talk) 17:09, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
JonFlaune has been blocked for 24 hours for edit warring on this contentious article. All I did was revert his edit, which removed referened content from media outlets like The Telegraph, becuase it didn't promote his POV. There are other examples of bad behavior JonFlaune has engaged in since then, but not necessary for here. -- Activism 1234 17:13, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
The only edit warring is by you, as anyone can tell from your edit where you removes Amnesty International's sourced reaction while instead adding reactions of fringe groups. This is a case of you removing Amnesty International and sourced material from articles because you don't like it, nothing else. JonFlaune ( talk) 17:18, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
To admins - JonFlaune, who filed this complaint, has just been blocked for 2 weeks for bad behavior on contentious articles and Wikihounding me. So this is pretty much pointless. Thanks. -- Activism 1234 17:21, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
Obviously some fans of [Harris MyCFO] thought it was funny to make the website look like a company webpage. They have the WORST fans of any major private bank, even worse than Coutts! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harris_myCFO — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.255.174.217 ( talk) 06:55, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
Editor Zbrnajsem has accused me several times by name at Talk:Oxfordian theory of Shakespeare authorship of dictatorially imposing my POV on the article. The article is about a fringe theory, and had severe weight issues which have been mostly resolved by the efforts of Tom Reedy, Paul Barlow, and myself over the past two months. Zbrnajsem has expressed the opinion that Oxfordism is not a fringe theory, that it should be given as much weight as the academic mainstream, and that he is being censored. I welcome any outside input. - Cal Engime ( talk) 17:10, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
Please see this diff here. In it the editor states:
Dude, unless the pro-Obama:pro-Romney ratio is about 9:1, it's wrong. Very, very few commentators support the Republican distortion of facts, and certainly no neutral commentators.
— Scjessey
This, in my humble opinion, is not keeping with NPOV. Additionally, although it is not something this noticeboard has preview over, the editor has been uncivil. -- RightCowLeftCoast ( talk) 20:44, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
Balance doesn't mean treating each political attack ad as inherently credible and relating a he-said-she-said of partisan commentatary. Balance means accurately and proportionately representing the best available independent, reliable sources. If non-partisan reliable sources view a politician's attack ad as deceptive, then we need to convey that view (attributed appropriately per WP:ASF) to the reader.
As an aside, you are edit-warring; you were recently blocked for doing so on this article, and you're up to at least 3 reverts already today as well. What you describe as a "tag team" might, in fact, be a consensus of editors disagreeing with you. MastCell Talk 21:38, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
The commenters here have correctly assessed the meaning of my comment. Wikipedia articles achieve neutrality by making sure they reflect the overall sense conveyed by reliable sources on their subject. Neutrality has nothing to do with giving "left" and "right" political views equal coverage, which sadly is the problem You didn't build that suffers from - largely due to the efforts of RightCowLeftCoast. -- Scjessey ( talk) 15:27, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Following a heated CFD in which a number of categories using the term Islamophobia were deleted, some editors seem presently determined to co-opt neutrally termed categories to denote opposition to Islam based on prejudice, discrimination and irrational fear. The two categories in question are:
All arguments so far have been presented in edit summaries, so see page history to assess the situation. Perhaps an opinion from this forum can set the appropriate perspective. __ meco ( talk) 09:17, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
I must disagree with the notion that we have to pigeonhole everything in some binary manner. There is a vast continuum of negative responses to Islam from the benign philosophical disagreement to the vicious hatred by crazed fanatics. As I examine the categories and sub-categories there is diverse thought among the articles we have available. Still the material isn’t so great that reader can find thoughtful Criticism of Hadiths in the Criticism of Islam category (often by Muslims themselves) and yet still locate horrible crimes in the Persecution of Muslims article. If one is looking for a modern discourse on bigotry the article titled Islamophobia promises to deliver what the title suggests. Do we have to judge every person, organization, and written work? Clearly our job is not original research. Let the articles reflect the experts, their disagreement, and most importantly nuanced commentary. Just because a category covers a continuum, that doesn't not imply we are equating the benign with the vicious. Jason from nyc ( talk) 02:02, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Criticism? Now that you mention it there is a whole Category:Criticism tree. And there is already a category for criticism of Islam in that tree. Here's the tree with a sample of the sub-categories:
There is no need for Category:Opposition to Islam as a criticism category since there is one already just like other religions. Jason from nyc ( talk) 13:49, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
Looking at the log at Category:Islamophobia shows that it was moved to Category:Opposition to Islam so the naming is even more fucked up than I thought. That means the naming of Category:Anti-Islam is indeed in line with Category:anti-Christianity, Category:anti-Judaism and Category:anti-Catholicism. My bad. I'll switch the descriptions around. // Liftarn ( talk)
This is a universal problem with using "phobia" words as titles in cases where the proponents say that the term is not limited to actual phobias. The quest is to brand any opposition or concerns as "phobia" and then try to say that non-phobias can be included under the "phobia" term because the "phobia" term doesn't mean "phobia". Wikipedia should not be participating in these quests. More neutral and more widely accepted terms should be used as titles or headings for the covered or listed phenomena. North8000 ( talk) 15:41, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
On List of creation myths there seems to be a small scale edit war going on on the subject of whether Biblical creation should be included in the list of creation myths. But since it is the position held by hundreds of millions, if not billions, so as to comply with NPOV, it should not be included in the list of creation myths, even if it is a myth. Right?
Legolover26 ( talk) 13:20, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
One of the problems we are having is that there are sticklers who insist on a very academic usage of the term 'myth', with its supposed lack of negative baggage, versus those who are supporting a more mainstream verbiage, in which the common understanding of the word 'myth' would imply 'false'. It is a bad idea to simply assume that either position is wrong here. However, you should ask, are we writing an article for those who are academicians and professional historians, sociologists, or anthropologists? Or are we generally writing for the public at large? I would say if you are concerned with the public at large understanding the meanings correctly, you easy them into the terminology, rather than assume they know. As such, I would say that calling something a "creation myth" without proper context would be irresponsible and inaccurate. -- Avanu ( talk) 05:13, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
Ah, right. I had used the word "sacred narrative" earlier in this discussion as a synonym for myth. Yeah, that bit of POV needs to be fixed. Ian.thomson ( talk) 12:48, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
I may point that "it is the position held by hundreds of millions, if not billions" is severely incorrect. There are millions of christians in the world, but not all of them take everything that comes in the package. Many do not take the Bible literally; they believe in God, but they do not believe in the fantastic things from the Bible, they just think that God created the universe and everything else afterwards (origin of the sun, origin of the earth, origin of life, evolution and diversification of life, etc) transpired the way science explains. In fact, didn't the pope accepted the validity of Evolution? I'm from Argentina, national religion is Christianism, and I have NEVER heard of someone promoting locally this whole thing of "give equal validity to Evolution and Creationism" that is discussed in the US. Cambalachero ( talk) 03:20, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
I'm an atheist and consider creationism to be incorrect, doubly so if taken literally. But Wikipedia is no place to be taking value-judgement swipes at something that is a core religious belief of hundreds of millions of people. The common meaning of "myth" includes "false". A list article that dominoes into editors taking value-judgement swipes at widely held religious beliefs should either leave off highly controversial classifications, or have the whole list article deleted. I suspect that the latter is the better remedy as such a list inherently pejorative, and inherently the value judgement of the editors, even if they can find cherry-picked sources that promote their same value judgement. Wikipedia for covering things, not inventing value-judgements on them. North8000 ( talk) 14:18, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
That article/list is going to need more eyes. The prevailing thought there is (in MY words) that, we, as editors, know or should decide that all of these beliefs are false, and then should label them as false in order to educate the readers. This is not correct. And, IMO, unneeded terminology that unnecessarily and actively "kicks" other people's beliefs is unnecessarily nasty and POV. North8000 ( talk) 10:56, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
Could someone here not involved with the discussion help work towards NPOV relating to the use of the term "Gaza Holocaust" as it relates to this discussion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2012_September_5#September_5 ? -- 108.23.47.101 ( talk) 01:31, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
I need some basic advice on the matter of NPOV, especially concerning the Ireland Manual of Style. In that style guide it is stated that for the city of Derry/Londonderry we should use "Derry" and for the county of the same name we should use " Londonderry". The idea is that by defining a standard we avoid edit wars. But the issue of which version to use is a big dispute in the real world. So by defining a standard for Wikipedia we are, in fact, pushing a POV that for the city Derry is right and Londonderry is wrong (and the other way round for the county). I have seen comments in edit summaries such as "at Wikipedia we use Derry". Also, there are numerous editors who look out for cases of alternative use and change to the Wikipedia preferred version citing WP:IMOS. These editors simply do not allow the alternative uses anywhere on Wikipedia. It seems to me that this WP:IMOS is flying in the face of the central NPOV pillar of Wikipedia, albeit for the best of intentions and that a manual of style is no place to resolve this type of controversial matter. Am I right in thinking this? The Roman Candle ( talk) 16:08, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
No further comment, so I'll not persue it, other than to say it seems like NPOV is, after all, negotiable if it makes things easy for everyone. The Roman Candle ( talk) 11:24, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
Regarding this revert, the Gay Nigger Association of America is a self-admitted trolling organization which has apparently been active on Wikipedia for the better part of a decade now. They claim that they are not actually racist and homophobic in self-published sources, and at least one journalist has reported the fact that they make such a claim. As far as I know no reliable source has actually agreed with their assertion that they are not actually racist and homophobic. There is abundant evidence that they are actually racist and homophobic, e.g., the "testimonials" linked from [10] and the mention of a "stolen USB stick" in [11]. Additional examples are very easy to find. Further discussion is at Talk:Gay Nigger Association of America#Actual racism.
Should the group's assertion that they are not actually racist and homophobic appear in their article? Even in the context of it being repeated without endorsement in a presumably reliable source? — Cupco 23:35, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
I reverted the original quote from the cite template for Blog Theory, on the grounds that the quote was unfairly abridged and citation guidelines specify that we use exact quotations from the source.
Currently there have been a series of edits at Paul Ryan about the reception of the speech he gave at the Republican convention. There is some minor edit warring going on regarding the text as it stands. I came in when I noticed the warring and feel that the text does not meet NPOV guidelines.
Here is one of the edits (in this case, one that brought back the text in question.) Here are my issues with it: 1. Negative reception cites outweigh positive reception cites. In this case, the cites are: Fox News (mixed), WP Opinions (negative), The Atlantic (negative), The Guardian (mixed), TNR (negative), WP Politics (pretty straight coverage as it covers reception and aftermath), BBC (negative.) Per WP:UNDUE we should not give weighted coverage, and there have certainly been rah-rah articles about his speech. If one is going to cite negative articles, one should cite positive ones too. Even better, one should cite articles which give balanced coverage. 2. One editor who has been reverting this back has stated here on the article's talk page that it is not their responsibility to find positive cites. I disagree. NPOV does not mean "I can write one-sided stuff and someone else can write the other one-sided stuff." One should abide by WP:NPOV. Stating that the reaction was "uniformly negative" seems to be cherry picking sources.
I do not want to get into an edit war on this page but I would appreciate some input about NPOV with this kind of cite. Thanks. -- Mr. Vernon ( talk) 05:15, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
It is our job to manufacture neutrality just because you have a reliable source saying something does not mean you need to add their point of view, or polemics if I'm sourcing an article that says Obama is a bad president because of this job loss number this month I would report the number job loss number as that is a fact not the POV on Obama. Most reliable sources like the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal have points of view it sells papers but wikipedia mission is to never have a point of view and being as neutral as possible. It seems both still-24 and Kerfuffler are just saying we have to include the POV wording the reliable sources use since it matches their own views, while if I did the same thing with fox news and included their POV wording then they would be whistling a differant tune John D. Rockerduck ( talk) 21:56, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
No, it's not an argument for exclusion; it's an argument for the minimalist approach that I have consistently promoted. The speech is clearly part of the historical record, and needs to be mentioned, but how well it played or what affect it has on the election cannot yet be known. Trying to balance positive and/or negative reaction to it, at this point, is a fool's errand. And, much as I pointed out earlier, some editors will cry "self-promotion" or "bias" unless they get to include an assertion that Ryan is a liar. Which is a good reason to follow my suggestion and simply mention the speech and leave the rest alone. Belchfire- TALK 06:41, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
The tenuous relationship between Paul Ryan's speech and the facts made headlines around the world, all the more because it was well received. Does anybody actually dispute this? Trishm ( talk) 06:55, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
I have hopped in and out of the article. I also added most of the coverage of the actual speech, (vs. coverage of what his opponents think about it.) I did it based on what was covered / excerpted by a neutral-appearing source. Folks have been trying to minimize actually covering the speech and maximize coverage of what his opponents think about his speech. My quick thoughts that come to mind are:
Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 10:13, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
The article is subject to WP:BLP. The addition of silly season "criticism" presented as "fact" rather than as "opinion" is a major problem. Some editors appear to have a strong political POV on this, with an earnest desire in multiple venues to describe people as liars - including the case at hand. It is not the task of an encyclopedia article to be used for such purposes. Also in the case at hand, clearly partisan opinion sources are being used to make the claim of "lies" without noting the other sources which specifically debunked or attacked such a charge. Doing that is actually where the violation of NPOV would occur. [17] is a typical edit using an opinion of The Guardian as a source for "containing lies, misrepresentations and omissions." Stating this as "fact" in Wikipedia's voice is a clear violation of WP:BLP and of WP:NPOV. One of the "lies" was stated as "He faulted Obama for failing on a campaign promise to keep a Wisconsin plant opened. It closed a month before Obama took office." Other sources state that the plant was closed in April 2009 -- which, admitting this is original research here <g>, was after Obama took office -- making the "lie" charge a bit odd indeed. Unless, pf course, Obama took office in May 2009, of course. Thus making the initial errant "fact check" claims in Wikipedia's voice without noting the corrections is against NPOV and also against WP:BLP. I have not seen Still24 using [18] in any article, and suggest he read WP:PIECE. The idea that silly season edits to BLPs should be made for political talking points on any side at all is a great weakness of Wikipedia. indeed. BTW, this is not just true of US politics - I would note as an aside the Australian ones as well - though those are generally aimed at the Labour Prime Minister there. AWU scandal and Health Services Union expenses affair are cases in point (see edit histories to see their "evolution". Can we someday simply shut off the silly season edits? Heck -- folks accuse Ryan of a major lie for misstating his marathon running time - which he corrected! Cheers. Collect ( talk) 12:43, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Gaijin42 ( talk) 14:06, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
All three of you are editorializing, making your own decisions about what constitutes a “factual error”. This is not appropriate on Wikipedia. We are here to document what other people say, not what we do—and a very large fraction of the media has in fact stated that the speech contains lies and misstatements. You are using bad interpretations of WP:NPOV as a justification. Kerfuffler ( talk) 16:03, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Read more:
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/brent-baker/2012/08/30/todd-claims-ryan-distorted-truth-must-concede-ryan-technically-factual-#ixzz25c9vSfEe
Gaijin42 (
talk) 16:40, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
I have gone to substantial effort to review User Talk:North8000, User Talk:Collect, and User Talk:Arzel. There is a clear bias in all of their editing on political issues. E.g., try [19]—a pointed edit that misquotes the source, doesn't even use correct grammar, and has a broken web link, but which he defended. I could list numerous others, but there's no point. Kerfuffler ( talk) 18:10, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Because some of you are too careless to read, I'm going to spell it out for you. Collect is outing me by posting where he believes I live. I have asked for it to be redacted, but you people have made such a mess of this that it's pointless. You should be ashamed of yourselves for aiding him. I'm StillStanding (24/7) ( talk) 00:05, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I can't follow the personal back-and-forth above, and I think there's probably better places for that. On the actual issue at hand, though, here's the text as I left it:
"Although the speech was well received by the convention audience and praised for being well-delivered, it was also criticized by multiple sources for being exceptionally dishonest. [7] [8]* [9] [10] [11]"
I think something like that has several things to recommend it:
Homunq ( talk) 12:51, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
Isn't something like Template:Aspects of capitalism inherently POV? As it is now it includes things that most economists would say is not an aspect of capitalism at all. While of course Marxists would claim it is. Even those things that nobody denies are a part of capitalism, such as cycles and bubbles, are to a large extent negative, despite the idea of capitalism being something generally negative today is a decidedly fringe view. -- OpenFuture ( talk) 11:46, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Regarding sidebar Template:Capitalism, from the talk page:
Unlike the template for Marxism, capitalism has no criticism section. Can someone say that is not NPOV? -- SomeDudeWithAUserName ( talk with me!) 20:50, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
-- Sum ( talk) 14:08, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
I added "antithesis" as well (adding
Marxism and
Communism at the outset) -- seems that this is the absolutely most straightforward way to deal with "opposites" in general. Cheers.
Collect (
talk) 12:49, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
This should be a fairly straight forward question. I have always been of the impression that NPOV does not require that we give all POV but describe relevant POV from a neutral perspective. For some time I have had the editor User:Langus-TxT following my contributions on Falklands topics and reverting them with the demand we represent the Argentine POV. From my perpective we don't represent matters from the British POV or the Argentine POV. We describe the British and Argentine positions from a neutral POV. A common mistake by nationalists of all persuasions is to demand that their POV is represented to counter what they perceive as bias.
I would be grateful if editors could comment on whether my interpretation of policy is correct, as I'm rapidly tiring of this. I'm really sorry to bring this here yet again but its only when a 3rd party opinion backs my comments he'll actually listen. Wee Curry Monster talk 16:22, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
“ | The NPOV policy says nothing about objectivity. In particular, the policy does not say that there is such a thing as objectivity in a philosophical sense—a "view from nowhere" (to use Thomas Nagel's phrase), such that articles written from that viewpoint are consequently objectively true. That is not the policy, and it is not our aim! Rather, to be neutral is to describe debates rather than engage in them. In other words, when discussing a subject, we should report what people have said about itrather than what is so. | ” |
Comments: A large number of problems concern whether something is a "fact" (empiricallly verifiable) or an "opinion masquerading as fact." Where something is empirically verifiable (John Gnarph was born in 1851, ... Water freezes at about 0 degrees Celsius, etc.) then NPOV does not require large exposition of disputes thereon.
Where the dispute is over a "contentious topic" including religion, politics, economics, modern history (including cases of national irredentist issues), and most especially where gradations of opinions are found, then NPOV should require that we present all the opinions in a manner proportional to their importance to the topic (note this is not the NPOV wording, but my opinion, of course). The idea that we can somehow "count sources" to gauge their "relative acceptance" is the cause of a large number of ArbCom cases - by saying that the importance of the opinion is a better gauge than "number of sources" or (worst version) whether "all the major scholars hold this opinion", is, again in my opinion, a large part of the problem here.
The third class is where an entire topic is basically "opinion" and I (if I were left as monarch of all encyclopedias <g>) would just as soon do away with - they endemically have edit wars etc. In the case of WP:BLPs - I would just as soon do away with all "Criticism of John Gnarph" opinion sections and edits entirely. Wikipedia should use "is this of long-term encyclopedic value?" as the criterion, and not "I found this in the 'Daily Tattler' about John Gnarph, therefore it must go into his BLP." And this goes treble for "allegations" in BLPs, or in any articles which refer to living people. Such stuff is not of long-term encyclopedic value, and NPOV has naught to do wth it. (end soapbox) Collect ( talk) 16:59, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
Hello, I am Jayemd. I have heard that on Talk: Kashmir conflict, Mrt3366 is reverting other users' edits 'at the sound of a heartbeat'. I have provided advice to the editors, but from what it looks like, they might have another dispute. -- Jayemd ( talk) 20:26, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
All,
I am an employee of Smithfield Foods, and came to Wiki to look up information about the company I work for. Unfortunately, all I found on the page were controversies about methods of hog production and other tangentially related topics. The article reads as a smear campaign against the company. There is virtually no information about the company itself---brands, history, leadership, financial results, acquisitions, etc. For reference, I checked out another company in the food and beverage sector, Kraft Foods, and found that their page included the type of information I had hoped to find about Smithfield, with a controversies section included.
As an employee, I didn't feel it was appropriate for me to make changes to the page myself, so I posted on the talk page to see if another editor would be willing to do a revamp of the article. No one has yet responded to my request, so I am posting here hoping to gain some attention to the issue.
I'm happy to help provide information to help revamp the page, if helpful.
Thanks
Kkirkham ( talk) 15:32, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
Although the original post is nearly stale, the article is indeed problematic and would benefit from broader input by neutral editors. I made several edits in an attempt to achieve better balance in the article, removing some over-the-top material and adding RS quotes from a relevant state agent who had personally inspected the facility and commented on the issues directly. Unfortunately, 100% of my contributions were immediately reverted by an established custodian of the page who refuses to allow any material to be removed, regardless of weight of balance. Clearly this article needs more attention from experienced editors and a larger cross-section of the WP community. Doc Tropics 14:22, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
Hi, I have proposed an edit to the Australian Greens page. I propose to add a Political position in the infobox, as is standard with Wikipedia political party entries. The Australian Greens are the third largest party in Australia, and hold 1 seat out of 150 in the Australian House of Representatives. The other seats are held by the Liberal Party of Australia, the Australian Labor Party, and the National Party of Australia. Each of these articles contains a politcal position. The Liberal Party of Australia is described as 'centre-left'. The other two parties are described as 'centre-right'. The Greens have various policies that would fit into the Left-wing politics category. These include gay marriage, a 40% pollution cut by 2020, voluntary euthanasia, opposition to the Iraq and Afghanistan war, abolition of the Monarchy of Australia, cuts in funding for private schools, free University education for all, free health and dental care for all, compulsury student unionism, abolition of private health insurance rebate, increase access to abortion, increased public housing, no mandatory detention of asylum seekers who arrive by boat, an end to the Pacific Solution, end the Northern Territory emergency response, increased multicultural programmes, gay adoption, establish intersex as a gender, increased restrictions on the media; particulary News Limited, increased social security, a stronger line on Israel-Palestine, increase overseas aid and increased rights for unions. These policies are all available on www.greens.org.au/policies. Some are available in the Wikipedia article.
The Wikipedia article on Left-wing politics notes 'In politics, the Left, left-wing, and leftists are people or views which generally support social change to create a more egalitarian society. They usually involve a concern for those in society who are disadvantaged relative to others and an assumption that there are unjustified inequalities'. This describes the Greens perfectly. The page also says 'the term (left-wing) was applied to a number of revolutionary movements...including green politics'. The Greens are clearly to the left of Labor, which is described as 'centre-left'.
I also note that other Green parties around the world, affiliated to Global Greens such as Green Party of England and Wales, Green Party of the United States, Scottish Greens and Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand are described on their articles as 'left-wing'. I have also found the following sources that describe the Greens as left-wing:
There are very few political party pages on Wikipedia (if any) that don't have a political position. I have tried to discuss this issue, but have not received many helpful comments. A lot of stonewalling. Please help me. Welshboyau11 ( talk) 02:35, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
I have a very different view. The world's first green party was in Tasmania. It grew to become the Australian Greens. As it emerged, it was heralded as a radically different party from our traditional ones. If it's radically different, there is surely no need nor benefit to labelling according to an old political spectrum it never aimed to be part of. Its position is Green politics. HiLo48 ( talk) 03:31, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
Welshboyau11, I suggest that you stop telling editors what their political leanings are, when neither Timeshift or HiLo48 are allowing their political leanings, whatever they are, to influence what they say here. I do not know what political party either of them "personally likes". Are you now going to jump to conclusions about my political leanings? -- Bduke (Discussion) 04:05, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
It's complex. Yes, The Greens have policies in most areas. Some are leftish, some are not, and some are new. They invented Green politics. Giving it a simple label doesn't help anybody. Just tell the readers what the party's policies are on the many issues. Don't try to fit it into an old paradigm.
Welshboyau11 has a major problem. Everyone else here has a biased POV, and he is the only purely objective editor here. If only we were all perfectly rational like him. Just drop the personal bullshit from your argument, admit that you too have a POV, and you might get somewhere. HiLo48 ( talk) 21:43, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
Welshboyau11 ( talk) 23:42, 1 September 2012 (UTC) I think the consensus so far from Independent editors is to go with the change. No Independent editor has completely opposed the change, whilst Anthonyhcole agrees and Itsmejudith is leaning in favour. Let's keep discussion going though. Welshboyau11 ( talk) 23:42, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
Some of the sources again:
Welshboyau11 ( talk) 00:32, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
I've found others, if more are needed. Welshboyau11 ( talk) 01:26, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
The problem here is that "left-wing" is somewhat subjective, especially when contrasted with "centre-left". And the lack of reliable sources in all of this - a public servant's opinion is still an opinion, not a reliable source - is definitely a problem. The Greens also take few economic left positions - as seen by the fact that the Katter party emerged as the key left party in the recent Queensland election (despite its patriarch being thought of by most Australians to be *right* wing.) Also note [26] - not a source, but clearly trying to identify where the Greens sit in "absolute terms", and it's hardly with Vladimir Lenin (or even Mandela, for that matter). Orderinchaos 02:11, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
This discussion is getting lost. I think the issue is whether "left wing" be added to the infobox, on its own with no nuance. There is no issue that I can see whether reliable sources can be used to discuss the political position of the Party. Discussion above shows that the position of members of the Australian Greens is quite nuanced. That should be reflected in the article itself. What I and others are objecting to is the simple minded use of terms in infoboxes to describe complex positions. That is not a matter of sources, but of editorial judgement. So leave that section of the infobox vacant and discuss the political position of the Party in the article itself using reliable sources. -- Bduke (Discussion) 03:00, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
http://wa.greens.org.au/system/files/private/GI%20webaugust2012.pdf - Greens magazine where they say 'Greens are clearly defined as left-wing'. And here Bob Brown agreeing with the description of left-wing http://greensmps.org.au/content/news-stories/peoples-forum-blogging-live. Welshboyau11 ( talk) 04:07, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
This is an appalling thread. In the time I've been out today it seems that Welshboyau11 has decreed that the opinions of myself and several other editors don't count because we are not independent, are part of a mob mentality, and our thoughts are irrelevant. And one of us is "criminally biased". LOL. Anyone starting here with an attitude like that has no hope of ever changing my mind. I think a relevant Wikipedia policy here is WP:Assume good faith. HiLo48 ( talk) 07:21, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
Well, thank you for that insight, both of you. You've managed to refute the extensive and well considered thoughts of many editors with "axiomatically obvious" and "no-brainer". Did you actually read what anybody else said? HiLo48 ( talk) 00:17, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
A coatrack tag has been added to Faithful Word Baptist Church, a very small church that has been labelled as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center. In looking for what any and all reliable sources stated I was only able to find so much and mainly tied to several news incidents:
I'm interested in getting the coatrack tag removed as I feel it indicates we are somehow suppressing or adding information that is not about the group. In asking the editors who support the tag they are convinced this is a coatrack but have been unable to show anything has been added that doesn't belong or that anything is missing. It seems to be a circular discussion so some uninvolved opinions would be appreciated, at least by me. If it is a coatrack what is the way forward to improving it, if it really isn't then what is the path for removing the tag? Any help appreciated. Insomesia ( talk) 02:02, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
Riley Schillaci ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
I nominated this article for speedy deletion [27] due to the fact that Rschilla ( talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log) ( WP:SPA?), who appears to be the subject of the article, created this article as a promotional tool and has maintained ownership, even making legal threats ( diff) in response to non-promotional edits made to the page. Apparently, Goodvac ( talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log) disagreed that the article was non-neutral and contested the speedy (though s/he did nothing to address the apparent COI or the lack of references in the article, nor the apparent lack of notability. I started to remove the most blatant unsourced and non-neutral material, but then there was literally nothing left to stand. Goodvac calls my assertions baseless, so I thought I'd see what the folks here at NPOV/N think. Looking back into the article's history, I have no doubt others will see the same promotional, COI and ownership problems I see. Wilhelm Meis ( ☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 15:17, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
I feel that User:Jeffro77 may not be willing to see that his edit here, which reverted my edit here, is POV. His argument is that my edit is wordy, but I think that it's better to err on the side of wordiness than to keep that statement POV. I need some feedback on this from an outside source. I might even be willing to seek some middle ground to help me find a way to make that statement less wordy, because I do admit that my edit there was on the wordy side. Thanks. Lighthead þ 04:53, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
1)... thing that I do agree with you about is that it is an interesting factoid, but that it's not exactly all that important to include the information regarding deacons. As regards my comment of ruler, while I do feel that you dominate all aspects of that Wikiproject (there is no way I'm not going to accept that he doesn't), it probably wasn't the nicest thing to say about you, and it especially wasn't the right place. And so I essentially retract that comment. The only reason I said that, though, is because that was the reason that I brought up this issue here. I feel like it would have been pointless and going through the motions, and my view of the matter would have been shot down there no matter what. Do you deny that? That was my point about him being the so-called ruler. And that's why 2) I believe that I wasn't canvassing because I'm not the type of person that goes through the motions and wastes time. I don't believe in ritual for the sake of ritual, which I think that Wikipedia tends to veer to way too much of the time. And by the way, would I be canvassing if I accept your viewpoint on that edit as I do now after you explained it on that article's talk page? It doesn't seem so does it. You shouldn't be so quick to accuse people of things, Jeffro, unless you're absolutely sure about it, much less be so quick on the draw to cite guidelines (and yes, they are guidelines and not canon and/or policies), when you think that somebody is overstepping their boundaries. Lighthead þ 06:49, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
In fact it would have been better if I would have researched that link rather than wildly assuming what that edit was about. And yeah, I actually did strike it out right after I made that comment about criticism. So I can see how that was doubly confusing. Lighthead þ 05:29, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
This article reads like a cross between a fanzine and a vanity puff-piece; particularly in sentences like "In 2000, Michael Porter was appointed a Harvard University Professor, the highest professional recognition that can be awarded to a Harvard faculty member." My intrinsic respect for "Harvard Professors" forbids me to speculate that the whole article may be an elaborate practical joke. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.70.198.220 ( talk) 21:45, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
The issue is the use of the word "Journalist" to describe the subject of the article "Nick Christensen (journalist)." The living subject of this biography is a public relations staffer for the Metro regional government in the Portland, Oregon, metropolitan area.
While it's common for journalists to leave their profession and become publicists or media relations persons for government agencies, it's misleading to wikipedia readers for them to refer to themselves as a "journalist" after having done so.
For just one example, see the online job search page http://www.simplyhired.com, which clearly distinguishes "In-House Writer" from "Journalist." For another, in the wikipedia entry for Jay Carney, Mr. Carney is referred to as having previously been a journalist but currently as White House Press Secretary. This is consistent with wikipedia's treatment of other people working in press relations on behalf of political entities.
To my knowledge, there is no other example of a government public relations person being presented in Wikipedia or anywhere else as a "journalist."
I have twice attempted to use broader, more accurate language ("public relations staffer") and another editor --perhaps the subject himself, or an associate --immediately reverts.
This may seem an academic or petty issue, but there is an important role served in society by journalists. A person charged with creating a favorable public perception of their employer is the very opposite of a journalist. Peezy1001 ( talk) 04:05, 11 September 2012 (UTC) I am not an experienced editor but have made contributions over the years where I saw an opportunity to improve Wikipedia. I believe that Wikipedia should be a reliable source of objective information, not a venue for counter-factual spin. I would like the wikipedia community to address the meaning of "Journalism" and whether a person paid by a government agency can qualify. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peezy1001 ( talk • contribs) 03:59, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
Article is subject of long term efforts by COI accounts to use it as a press release, with occasional counter-attempts to add negative content, not always adequately sourced. I've copy edited for neutrality, and though I think it's in a good place now, don't expect that to last long. Further eyes and adding this to watchlists would be appreciated. Thanks, 76.248.149.47 ( talk) 15:09, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
Could someone with more energy and patience for it please take a look at Special:Contributions/108.28.53.169? He seems to primarily do NPOV edits. Thanks. — Kerfuffler 22:35, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
More eyes on this article would be appreciated; it is being used as a coatrack for various incidents of non-censorship and censorship unrelated to Islam by users who refuse to attempt to gain consensus. I'm arguing that relevance is a necessary baseline for inclusion in the article, but making Muslims look bad appears to trump this fairly self-evident necessity. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 17:02, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
Please see the RfC regarding racism and homophobia. Thanks. Jauerback dude?/ dude. 00:52, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
A user added scare quotes to the bolded article title of orgastic potency. This was done to emphasize that the article is about a fringe topic. However, I don't see the relevance nor the propriety in using this extreme level of emphasis to underscore such a point. To me adding scare quotes to the article title seems much over the top in efforts to denigrate the subject, rather than to present it in representative context with respect to its scientific and otherwise standing as well as notability. I attempted to undo the adding of scare quotes, but this was promptly reverted by another user. I'm seeking advise from this noticeboard on the correct application of WP policies and guidelines to this conflict. __ meco ( talk) 08:45, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
Rochester Police Department ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
I just reverted a substantial amount of blanking [29] at this article it seemed too extensive of modification to do with no explanation. However, the IP may a point in that ~2/3's of the article is related to specific criticisms and incidents. I am bringing it here for broader discussion to see if there is consensus that the article needs to be rewritten for neutrality. VQuakr ( talk) 00:19, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
An RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 14:38, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
Eurabia, an article covering the idea that Muslims are overtaking Europe, has been compared to several anti-semitic conspiracy theories, among them the Zionist Occupied Government and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Two sources making such a comparison are as follows:
Very popular political ideas are usually ones that can be explained over a beer in a bar, or at worst in a pamphlet. Marxism had the 23-page Communist manifesto; anti-Semitism had the rollicking forgery Protocols of the Elders of Zion (Ye'or's book reads like the Protocols badly rewritten about Muslims)
Stripped of its Islamic content, the broad contours of Ye'or's preposterous thesis recall the anti-Semitic conspiracy theories of the first half of the twentieth century and contemporary notions of the 'Zionist Occupation Government' prevalent in far-right circles in the US.
{{
citation}}
: Missing or empty |title=
(
help)The article, and its lead, had included that the theory has been compared to these two anti-semitic conspiracy theories. That has been removed from the lead as "fringe". Does the inclusion of the peer-reviewed article in Race & Class or the article in the Financial Times qualify as "fringe"? nableezy - 17:51, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
4 3 other sources are comparing Eurabia with anti-semitic conspiracy theories and are
currently mentionned in the Wikipedia article:
(follow the link for the exact quotations and references). Visite fortuitement prolongée ( talk) 21:16, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
Cradle110
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 30 | ← | Archive 33 | Archive 34 | Archive 35 | Archive 36 | Archive 37 | → | Archive 40 |
The section on the attack of the mausoleum needs more de-POVifying. 69.62.243.48 ( talk) 03:58, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
I have voiced concern that the Pope Julius III article givews too much weight to rumours and should focu on the scandal involving the Cardinal-nephew more. I attempted to add a tag, but three editors would immediately remove the tag, stating that my concerns were "wrong and everyone says so". Given that the tag was removed o quickly, it would never allow other editors to join in the dicussion, and I take offense to the notion that any concerns about nuetrality would be described so harshly to an eidtor. One editor claimed to be an admin, and the admin went on to say that if I continued to voice my concerns I could be blocked {"I will make sure you are blocked temporarily edit-warring and disruptive editing"), and further seemed to epress the notion that as an admin his opinion mattered more ("you have been told by a number of editors, one of whom an administrator (me), that you were wrong") and seems to look at newer editors with disdain ("I understand that the combination of zeal and only 134 edits can lead to this"). So I found this page ad hope someone can perhaps help voice my conerns without further threats.
The article quotes, or at least purports to quote, several authors and contemporaries of the pontiff. I have some concerns of this as they are all English quotes given in the article and some of the authors are German and the contemporaries are Italian, German and French. These quotes, many of which are written by enemies of the Pope or the Church, are weaved into the sentences as though they were undisputed fact. While many have questioned the relationship between Pope and Cardinal-nephew, there are just as many doubts. This is evident as many of the contemporary rumours contradict one another, it is a known fact that the Cardinal-nephew was having affairs with woman that came to the Papal Court, and usually a man interested in 14year olds (the age the Pope first met the Cardinal-nephew) is not inteested in 20-somethings (the age that the Cardinal-nephew was reciveing the many gifts and papal offices). It may simply have been a childless uncle showering his adoptive nephew with gifts since he would have no children of his own. Either way, it looked bad, and the incident was used against the Church quite effectively--and this point should be the focus of the section, not the quotes about unproven rumour. I am not saying remove all of it, but simply not to put undue weight with it. Sentences that refer to the pope's "sodomitical affairs" are way out of line. Bellae artes ( talk) 08:54, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
This article repeats unverifiable claims as true and has citations that are circular. 76.21.107.221 ( talk) 20:19, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
user "gun powder ma" is blatantly violating npov on the convivencia-page. he/she wrote a *huge* criticism-section using 3 sources, fernández-morera, mark cohen and bernard lewis. i dunno anything about fernández-morera but cohen and lewis are misused as their views are much more nuanced. cherry-picking of quotes is against our guidelines: "editors, while naturally having their own points of view, should strive in good faith to provide complete information, and not to promote one particular point of view over another. as such, the neutral point of view does not mean exclusion of certain points of view, but including all notable and verifiable points of view". and further: "editing from a neutral point of view (npov) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources". thus, it is required of "gun powder ma" to edit in a neutral manner.
also, content from criticism-sections should be integrated into to the main text, as criticism-sections are highly pov-loaded. but wait... there is *no* main text. the page just has a lead and a huge criticism-section! a criticism-section written by "gun powder ma" himself/herself, where he/she has used cherry picked quotes. the academic consensus regarding the issue is clear: the la convivencia period was progressive (although not an utopia), when compared to other contemporary christian/non-christian regimes of the time. he's also involved in original research because he's adding historical incidents, by random, that has nothing to do with "criticism of the concept". to makes matter worse, he is trying to edit-war a "segregation-section on the "islam-in-europe"-page. [1] user:gun_powder_ma has no intentions to contribute in a neutral manner.-- altetendekrabbe 05:01, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
This edit is highly problematic. I don't even think there is any serious debate that Jews weren't treated better under Islam than they were in Christian Europe, I have never heard any Jews or Europeans make that claim before. -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 17:08, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
I have been at loggerheads with an editor for two weeks. I have been to AN/I in an effort to deal with what I considered disruptive editing. I was set straight that it was a content dispute. I have asked a few times on this noticeboard for help regarding WP:DUE, but to no avail. Today the other editor has attempted to use tags to discredit the material I have placed in the article. First he used template:Connected contributor after it was shown to be inappropriate, the editor tried template:COI. This time I went to the "conflict of interest noticeboard" and a third editor came and removed the template. All along the talk page has been a constant flow of accusations, which spill over to my talk page. Now the editor has tried another tag to discredit the material, this time he has marked a section with the template:POV. Can I get a ruling on this use of the POV template, please? This seems to me to be an editor out of control. -- spin control 18:24, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
I have appealed to this noticeboard three times for an independent voice on the conflict I've been involved with. Not a word. Is neutrality no longer of much concern? -- spin control 06:11, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
A note here that based on this edit I have informed user:Doktorspin that given his use of profanities I can not engage in discussion with him. I have zero tolerance for profanity. Wikipedia editors should not be subject to fear of profanity-based retorts as they discuss content. History2007 ( talk) 08:32, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
You can maintain whatever you like, except such disruptive editing. I fairly cited the source for what it says and you didn't even bother to check it out before you attacked it with a hatchet. You had decided that he was one of the good authors who agreed with your views. That's not how WP:DUE works. Novak might support the 49 CE date, but not everything he says is majority view. You are trying to use WP:DUE to enforce your views and you have gone to lengths to force them, including promiscuous use of tags to make accusations and reverts that remove good sources. That is disruptive. You clearly have ownership issues and you continue to harass me on my talk page. And you talk about behavior that deserves a block! -- spin control 19:28, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
The article Rachel Corrie is currently under constant attacks by POV pushers promoting far-right views, labelling her as "anti-semitic" and so on [2]. Most recently, User:Activism1234 removed Amnesty International's sourced reaction [3] to an Israeli court's actions, while adding numerous reactions of obscure bloggers, far-right fringe groups nowhere near Amnesty's notability. [4]. His edit also includes POV labelling of the UN Special Rapporteur, and removal of the obvious description of her as a peace activist (she is listed in the peace activist article). JonFlaune ( talk) 17:09, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
JonFlaune has been blocked for 24 hours for edit warring on this contentious article. All I did was revert his edit, which removed referened content from media outlets like The Telegraph, becuase it didn't promote his POV. There are other examples of bad behavior JonFlaune has engaged in since then, but not necessary for here. -- Activism 1234 17:13, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
The only edit warring is by you, as anyone can tell from your edit where you removes Amnesty International's sourced reaction while instead adding reactions of fringe groups. This is a case of you removing Amnesty International and sourced material from articles because you don't like it, nothing else. JonFlaune ( talk) 17:18, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
To admins - JonFlaune, who filed this complaint, has just been blocked for 2 weeks for bad behavior on contentious articles and Wikihounding me. So this is pretty much pointless. Thanks. -- Activism 1234 17:21, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
Obviously some fans of [Harris MyCFO] thought it was funny to make the website look like a company webpage. They have the WORST fans of any major private bank, even worse than Coutts! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harris_myCFO — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.255.174.217 ( talk) 06:55, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
Editor Zbrnajsem has accused me several times by name at Talk:Oxfordian theory of Shakespeare authorship of dictatorially imposing my POV on the article. The article is about a fringe theory, and had severe weight issues which have been mostly resolved by the efforts of Tom Reedy, Paul Barlow, and myself over the past two months. Zbrnajsem has expressed the opinion that Oxfordism is not a fringe theory, that it should be given as much weight as the academic mainstream, and that he is being censored. I welcome any outside input. - Cal Engime ( talk) 17:10, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
Please see this diff here. In it the editor states:
Dude, unless the pro-Obama:pro-Romney ratio is about 9:1, it's wrong. Very, very few commentators support the Republican distortion of facts, and certainly no neutral commentators.
— Scjessey
This, in my humble opinion, is not keeping with NPOV. Additionally, although it is not something this noticeboard has preview over, the editor has been uncivil. -- RightCowLeftCoast ( talk) 20:44, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
Balance doesn't mean treating each political attack ad as inherently credible and relating a he-said-she-said of partisan commentatary. Balance means accurately and proportionately representing the best available independent, reliable sources. If non-partisan reliable sources view a politician's attack ad as deceptive, then we need to convey that view (attributed appropriately per WP:ASF) to the reader.
As an aside, you are edit-warring; you were recently blocked for doing so on this article, and you're up to at least 3 reverts already today as well. What you describe as a "tag team" might, in fact, be a consensus of editors disagreeing with you. MastCell Talk 21:38, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
The commenters here have correctly assessed the meaning of my comment. Wikipedia articles achieve neutrality by making sure they reflect the overall sense conveyed by reliable sources on their subject. Neutrality has nothing to do with giving "left" and "right" political views equal coverage, which sadly is the problem You didn't build that suffers from - largely due to the efforts of RightCowLeftCoast. -- Scjessey ( talk) 15:27, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Following a heated CFD in which a number of categories using the term Islamophobia were deleted, some editors seem presently determined to co-opt neutrally termed categories to denote opposition to Islam based on prejudice, discrimination and irrational fear. The two categories in question are:
All arguments so far have been presented in edit summaries, so see page history to assess the situation. Perhaps an opinion from this forum can set the appropriate perspective. __ meco ( talk) 09:17, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
I must disagree with the notion that we have to pigeonhole everything in some binary manner. There is a vast continuum of negative responses to Islam from the benign philosophical disagreement to the vicious hatred by crazed fanatics. As I examine the categories and sub-categories there is diverse thought among the articles we have available. Still the material isn’t so great that reader can find thoughtful Criticism of Hadiths in the Criticism of Islam category (often by Muslims themselves) and yet still locate horrible crimes in the Persecution of Muslims article. If one is looking for a modern discourse on bigotry the article titled Islamophobia promises to deliver what the title suggests. Do we have to judge every person, organization, and written work? Clearly our job is not original research. Let the articles reflect the experts, their disagreement, and most importantly nuanced commentary. Just because a category covers a continuum, that doesn't not imply we are equating the benign with the vicious. Jason from nyc ( talk) 02:02, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Criticism? Now that you mention it there is a whole Category:Criticism tree. And there is already a category for criticism of Islam in that tree. Here's the tree with a sample of the sub-categories:
There is no need for Category:Opposition to Islam as a criticism category since there is one already just like other religions. Jason from nyc ( talk) 13:49, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
Looking at the log at Category:Islamophobia shows that it was moved to Category:Opposition to Islam so the naming is even more fucked up than I thought. That means the naming of Category:Anti-Islam is indeed in line with Category:anti-Christianity, Category:anti-Judaism and Category:anti-Catholicism. My bad. I'll switch the descriptions around. // Liftarn ( talk)
This is a universal problem with using "phobia" words as titles in cases where the proponents say that the term is not limited to actual phobias. The quest is to brand any opposition or concerns as "phobia" and then try to say that non-phobias can be included under the "phobia" term because the "phobia" term doesn't mean "phobia". Wikipedia should not be participating in these quests. More neutral and more widely accepted terms should be used as titles or headings for the covered or listed phenomena. North8000 ( talk) 15:41, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
On List of creation myths there seems to be a small scale edit war going on on the subject of whether Biblical creation should be included in the list of creation myths. But since it is the position held by hundreds of millions, if not billions, so as to comply with NPOV, it should not be included in the list of creation myths, even if it is a myth. Right?
Legolover26 ( talk) 13:20, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
One of the problems we are having is that there are sticklers who insist on a very academic usage of the term 'myth', with its supposed lack of negative baggage, versus those who are supporting a more mainstream verbiage, in which the common understanding of the word 'myth' would imply 'false'. It is a bad idea to simply assume that either position is wrong here. However, you should ask, are we writing an article for those who are academicians and professional historians, sociologists, or anthropologists? Or are we generally writing for the public at large? I would say if you are concerned with the public at large understanding the meanings correctly, you easy them into the terminology, rather than assume they know. As such, I would say that calling something a "creation myth" without proper context would be irresponsible and inaccurate. -- Avanu ( talk) 05:13, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
Ah, right. I had used the word "sacred narrative" earlier in this discussion as a synonym for myth. Yeah, that bit of POV needs to be fixed. Ian.thomson ( talk) 12:48, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
I may point that "it is the position held by hundreds of millions, if not billions" is severely incorrect. There are millions of christians in the world, but not all of them take everything that comes in the package. Many do not take the Bible literally; they believe in God, but they do not believe in the fantastic things from the Bible, they just think that God created the universe and everything else afterwards (origin of the sun, origin of the earth, origin of life, evolution and diversification of life, etc) transpired the way science explains. In fact, didn't the pope accepted the validity of Evolution? I'm from Argentina, national religion is Christianism, and I have NEVER heard of someone promoting locally this whole thing of "give equal validity to Evolution and Creationism" that is discussed in the US. Cambalachero ( talk) 03:20, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
I'm an atheist and consider creationism to be incorrect, doubly so if taken literally. But Wikipedia is no place to be taking value-judgement swipes at something that is a core religious belief of hundreds of millions of people. The common meaning of "myth" includes "false". A list article that dominoes into editors taking value-judgement swipes at widely held religious beliefs should either leave off highly controversial classifications, or have the whole list article deleted. I suspect that the latter is the better remedy as such a list inherently pejorative, and inherently the value judgement of the editors, even if they can find cherry-picked sources that promote their same value judgement. Wikipedia for covering things, not inventing value-judgements on them. North8000 ( talk) 14:18, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
That article/list is going to need more eyes. The prevailing thought there is (in MY words) that, we, as editors, know or should decide that all of these beliefs are false, and then should label them as false in order to educate the readers. This is not correct. And, IMO, unneeded terminology that unnecessarily and actively "kicks" other people's beliefs is unnecessarily nasty and POV. North8000 ( talk) 10:56, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
Could someone here not involved with the discussion help work towards NPOV relating to the use of the term "Gaza Holocaust" as it relates to this discussion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2012_September_5#September_5 ? -- 108.23.47.101 ( talk) 01:31, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
I need some basic advice on the matter of NPOV, especially concerning the Ireland Manual of Style. In that style guide it is stated that for the city of Derry/Londonderry we should use "Derry" and for the county of the same name we should use " Londonderry". The idea is that by defining a standard we avoid edit wars. But the issue of which version to use is a big dispute in the real world. So by defining a standard for Wikipedia we are, in fact, pushing a POV that for the city Derry is right and Londonderry is wrong (and the other way round for the county). I have seen comments in edit summaries such as "at Wikipedia we use Derry". Also, there are numerous editors who look out for cases of alternative use and change to the Wikipedia preferred version citing WP:IMOS. These editors simply do not allow the alternative uses anywhere on Wikipedia. It seems to me that this WP:IMOS is flying in the face of the central NPOV pillar of Wikipedia, albeit for the best of intentions and that a manual of style is no place to resolve this type of controversial matter. Am I right in thinking this? The Roman Candle ( talk) 16:08, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
No further comment, so I'll not persue it, other than to say it seems like NPOV is, after all, negotiable if it makes things easy for everyone. The Roman Candle ( talk) 11:24, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
Regarding this revert, the Gay Nigger Association of America is a self-admitted trolling organization which has apparently been active on Wikipedia for the better part of a decade now. They claim that they are not actually racist and homophobic in self-published sources, and at least one journalist has reported the fact that they make such a claim. As far as I know no reliable source has actually agreed with their assertion that they are not actually racist and homophobic. There is abundant evidence that they are actually racist and homophobic, e.g., the "testimonials" linked from [10] and the mention of a "stolen USB stick" in [11]. Additional examples are very easy to find. Further discussion is at Talk:Gay Nigger Association of America#Actual racism.
Should the group's assertion that they are not actually racist and homophobic appear in their article? Even in the context of it being repeated without endorsement in a presumably reliable source? — Cupco 23:35, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
I reverted the original quote from the cite template for Blog Theory, on the grounds that the quote was unfairly abridged and citation guidelines specify that we use exact quotations from the source.
Currently there have been a series of edits at Paul Ryan about the reception of the speech he gave at the Republican convention. There is some minor edit warring going on regarding the text as it stands. I came in when I noticed the warring and feel that the text does not meet NPOV guidelines.
Here is one of the edits (in this case, one that brought back the text in question.) Here are my issues with it: 1. Negative reception cites outweigh positive reception cites. In this case, the cites are: Fox News (mixed), WP Opinions (negative), The Atlantic (negative), The Guardian (mixed), TNR (negative), WP Politics (pretty straight coverage as it covers reception and aftermath), BBC (negative.) Per WP:UNDUE we should not give weighted coverage, and there have certainly been rah-rah articles about his speech. If one is going to cite negative articles, one should cite positive ones too. Even better, one should cite articles which give balanced coverage. 2. One editor who has been reverting this back has stated here on the article's talk page that it is not their responsibility to find positive cites. I disagree. NPOV does not mean "I can write one-sided stuff and someone else can write the other one-sided stuff." One should abide by WP:NPOV. Stating that the reaction was "uniformly negative" seems to be cherry picking sources.
I do not want to get into an edit war on this page but I would appreciate some input about NPOV with this kind of cite. Thanks. -- Mr. Vernon ( talk) 05:15, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
It is our job to manufacture neutrality just because you have a reliable source saying something does not mean you need to add their point of view, or polemics if I'm sourcing an article that says Obama is a bad president because of this job loss number this month I would report the number job loss number as that is a fact not the POV on Obama. Most reliable sources like the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal have points of view it sells papers but wikipedia mission is to never have a point of view and being as neutral as possible. It seems both still-24 and Kerfuffler are just saying we have to include the POV wording the reliable sources use since it matches their own views, while if I did the same thing with fox news and included their POV wording then they would be whistling a differant tune John D. Rockerduck ( talk) 21:56, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
No, it's not an argument for exclusion; it's an argument for the minimalist approach that I have consistently promoted. The speech is clearly part of the historical record, and needs to be mentioned, but how well it played or what affect it has on the election cannot yet be known. Trying to balance positive and/or negative reaction to it, at this point, is a fool's errand. And, much as I pointed out earlier, some editors will cry "self-promotion" or "bias" unless they get to include an assertion that Ryan is a liar. Which is a good reason to follow my suggestion and simply mention the speech and leave the rest alone. Belchfire- TALK 06:41, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
The tenuous relationship between Paul Ryan's speech and the facts made headlines around the world, all the more because it was well received. Does anybody actually dispute this? Trishm ( talk) 06:55, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
I have hopped in and out of the article. I also added most of the coverage of the actual speech, (vs. coverage of what his opponents think about it.) I did it based on what was covered / excerpted by a neutral-appearing source. Folks have been trying to minimize actually covering the speech and maximize coverage of what his opponents think about his speech. My quick thoughts that come to mind are:
Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 10:13, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
The article is subject to WP:BLP. The addition of silly season "criticism" presented as "fact" rather than as "opinion" is a major problem. Some editors appear to have a strong political POV on this, with an earnest desire in multiple venues to describe people as liars - including the case at hand. It is not the task of an encyclopedia article to be used for such purposes. Also in the case at hand, clearly partisan opinion sources are being used to make the claim of "lies" without noting the other sources which specifically debunked or attacked such a charge. Doing that is actually where the violation of NPOV would occur. [17] is a typical edit using an opinion of The Guardian as a source for "containing lies, misrepresentations and omissions." Stating this as "fact" in Wikipedia's voice is a clear violation of WP:BLP and of WP:NPOV. One of the "lies" was stated as "He faulted Obama for failing on a campaign promise to keep a Wisconsin plant opened. It closed a month before Obama took office." Other sources state that the plant was closed in April 2009 -- which, admitting this is original research here <g>, was after Obama took office -- making the "lie" charge a bit odd indeed. Unless, pf course, Obama took office in May 2009, of course. Thus making the initial errant "fact check" claims in Wikipedia's voice without noting the corrections is against NPOV and also against WP:BLP. I have not seen Still24 using [18] in any article, and suggest he read WP:PIECE. The idea that silly season edits to BLPs should be made for political talking points on any side at all is a great weakness of Wikipedia. indeed. BTW, this is not just true of US politics - I would note as an aside the Australian ones as well - though those are generally aimed at the Labour Prime Minister there. AWU scandal and Health Services Union expenses affair are cases in point (see edit histories to see their "evolution". Can we someday simply shut off the silly season edits? Heck -- folks accuse Ryan of a major lie for misstating his marathon running time - which he corrected! Cheers. Collect ( talk) 12:43, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Gaijin42 ( talk) 14:06, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
All three of you are editorializing, making your own decisions about what constitutes a “factual error”. This is not appropriate on Wikipedia. We are here to document what other people say, not what we do—and a very large fraction of the media has in fact stated that the speech contains lies and misstatements. You are using bad interpretations of WP:NPOV as a justification. Kerfuffler ( talk) 16:03, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Read more:
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/brent-baker/2012/08/30/todd-claims-ryan-distorted-truth-must-concede-ryan-technically-factual-#ixzz25c9vSfEe
Gaijin42 (
talk) 16:40, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
I have gone to substantial effort to review User Talk:North8000, User Talk:Collect, and User Talk:Arzel. There is a clear bias in all of their editing on political issues. E.g., try [19]—a pointed edit that misquotes the source, doesn't even use correct grammar, and has a broken web link, but which he defended. I could list numerous others, but there's no point. Kerfuffler ( talk) 18:10, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Because some of you are too careless to read, I'm going to spell it out for you. Collect is outing me by posting where he believes I live. I have asked for it to be redacted, but you people have made such a mess of this that it's pointless. You should be ashamed of yourselves for aiding him. I'm StillStanding (24/7) ( talk) 00:05, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I can't follow the personal back-and-forth above, and I think there's probably better places for that. On the actual issue at hand, though, here's the text as I left it:
"Although the speech was well received by the convention audience and praised for being well-delivered, it was also criticized by multiple sources for being exceptionally dishonest. [7] [8]* [9] [10] [11]"
I think something like that has several things to recommend it:
Homunq ( talk) 12:51, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
Isn't something like Template:Aspects of capitalism inherently POV? As it is now it includes things that most economists would say is not an aspect of capitalism at all. While of course Marxists would claim it is. Even those things that nobody denies are a part of capitalism, such as cycles and bubbles, are to a large extent negative, despite the idea of capitalism being something generally negative today is a decidedly fringe view. -- OpenFuture ( talk) 11:46, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Regarding sidebar Template:Capitalism, from the talk page:
Unlike the template for Marxism, capitalism has no criticism section. Can someone say that is not NPOV? -- SomeDudeWithAUserName ( talk with me!) 20:50, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
-- Sum ( talk) 14:08, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
I added "antithesis" as well (adding
Marxism and
Communism at the outset) -- seems that this is the absolutely most straightforward way to deal with "opposites" in general. Cheers.
Collect (
talk) 12:49, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
This should be a fairly straight forward question. I have always been of the impression that NPOV does not require that we give all POV but describe relevant POV from a neutral perspective. For some time I have had the editor User:Langus-TxT following my contributions on Falklands topics and reverting them with the demand we represent the Argentine POV. From my perpective we don't represent matters from the British POV or the Argentine POV. We describe the British and Argentine positions from a neutral POV. A common mistake by nationalists of all persuasions is to demand that their POV is represented to counter what they perceive as bias.
I would be grateful if editors could comment on whether my interpretation of policy is correct, as I'm rapidly tiring of this. I'm really sorry to bring this here yet again but its only when a 3rd party opinion backs my comments he'll actually listen. Wee Curry Monster talk 16:22, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
“ | The NPOV policy says nothing about objectivity. In particular, the policy does not say that there is such a thing as objectivity in a philosophical sense—a "view from nowhere" (to use Thomas Nagel's phrase), such that articles written from that viewpoint are consequently objectively true. That is not the policy, and it is not our aim! Rather, to be neutral is to describe debates rather than engage in them. In other words, when discussing a subject, we should report what people have said about itrather than what is so. | ” |
Comments: A large number of problems concern whether something is a "fact" (empiricallly verifiable) or an "opinion masquerading as fact." Where something is empirically verifiable (John Gnarph was born in 1851, ... Water freezes at about 0 degrees Celsius, etc.) then NPOV does not require large exposition of disputes thereon.
Where the dispute is over a "contentious topic" including religion, politics, economics, modern history (including cases of national irredentist issues), and most especially where gradations of opinions are found, then NPOV should require that we present all the opinions in a manner proportional to their importance to the topic (note this is not the NPOV wording, but my opinion, of course). The idea that we can somehow "count sources" to gauge their "relative acceptance" is the cause of a large number of ArbCom cases - by saying that the importance of the opinion is a better gauge than "number of sources" or (worst version) whether "all the major scholars hold this opinion", is, again in my opinion, a large part of the problem here.
The third class is where an entire topic is basically "opinion" and I (if I were left as monarch of all encyclopedias <g>) would just as soon do away with - they endemically have edit wars etc. In the case of WP:BLPs - I would just as soon do away with all "Criticism of John Gnarph" opinion sections and edits entirely. Wikipedia should use "is this of long-term encyclopedic value?" as the criterion, and not "I found this in the 'Daily Tattler' about John Gnarph, therefore it must go into his BLP." And this goes treble for "allegations" in BLPs, or in any articles which refer to living people. Such stuff is not of long-term encyclopedic value, and NPOV has naught to do wth it. (end soapbox) Collect ( talk) 16:59, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
Hello, I am Jayemd. I have heard that on Talk: Kashmir conflict, Mrt3366 is reverting other users' edits 'at the sound of a heartbeat'. I have provided advice to the editors, but from what it looks like, they might have another dispute. -- Jayemd ( talk) 20:26, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
All,
I am an employee of Smithfield Foods, and came to Wiki to look up information about the company I work for. Unfortunately, all I found on the page were controversies about methods of hog production and other tangentially related topics. The article reads as a smear campaign against the company. There is virtually no information about the company itself---brands, history, leadership, financial results, acquisitions, etc. For reference, I checked out another company in the food and beverage sector, Kraft Foods, and found that their page included the type of information I had hoped to find about Smithfield, with a controversies section included.
As an employee, I didn't feel it was appropriate for me to make changes to the page myself, so I posted on the talk page to see if another editor would be willing to do a revamp of the article. No one has yet responded to my request, so I am posting here hoping to gain some attention to the issue.
I'm happy to help provide information to help revamp the page, if helpful.
Thanks
Kkirkham ( talk) 15:32, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
Although the original post is nearly stale, the article is indeed problematic and would benefit from broader input by neutral editors. I made several edits in an attempt to achieve better balance in the article, removing some over-the-top material and adding RS quotes from a relevant state agent who had personally inspected the facility and commented on the issues directly. Unfortunately, 100% of my contributions were immediately reverted by an established custodian of the page who refuses to allow any material to be removed, regardless of weight of balance. Clearly this article needs more attention from experienced editors and a larger cross-section of the WP community. Doc Tropics 14:22, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
Hi, I have proposed an edit to the Australian Greens page. I propose to add a Political position in the infobox, as is standard with Wikipedia political party entries. The Australian Greens are the third largest party in Australia, and hold 1 seat out of 150 in the Australian House of Representatives. The other seats are held by the Liberal Party of Australia, the Australian Labor Party, and the National Party of Australia. Each of these articles contains a politcal position. The Liberal Party of Australia is described as 'centre-left'. The other two parties are described as 'centre-right'. The Greens have various policies that would fit into the Left-wing politics category. These include gay marriage, a 40% pollution cut by 2020, voluntary euthanasia, opposition to the Iraq and Afghanistan war, abolition of the Monarchy of Australia, cuts in funding for private schools, free University education for all, free health and dental care for all, compulsury student unionism, abolition of private health insurance rebate, increase access to abortion, increased public housing, no mandatory detention of asylum seekers who arrive by boat, an end to the Pacific Solution, end the Northern Territory emergency response, increased multicultural programmes, gay adoption, establish intersex as a gender, increased restrictions on the media; particulary News Limited, increased social security, a stronger line on Israel-Palestine, increase overseas aid and increased rights for unions. These policies are all available on www.greens.org.au/policies. Some are available in the Wikipedia article.
The Wikipedia article on Left-wing politics notes 'In politics, the Left, left-wing, and leftists are people or views which generally support social change to create a more egalitarian society. They usually involve a concern for those in society who are disadvantaged relative to others and an assumption that there are unjustified inequalities'. This describes the Greens perfectly. The page also says 'the term (left-wing) was applied to a number of revolutionary movements...including green politics'. The Greens are clearly to the left of Labor, which is described as 'centre-left'.
I also note that other Green parties around the world, affiliated to Global Greens such as Green Party of England and Wales, Green Party of the United States, Scottish Greens and Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand are described on their articles as 'left-wing'. I have also found the following sources that describe the Greens as left-wing:
There are very few political party pages on Wikipedia (if any) that don't have a political position. I have tried to discuss this issue, but have not received many helpful comments. A lot of stonewalling. Please help me. Welshboyau11 ( talk) 02:35, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
I have a very different view. The world's first green party was in Tasmania. It grew to become the Australian Greens. As it emerged, it was heralded as a radically different party from our traditional ones. If it's radically different, there is surely no need nor benefit to labelling according to an old political spectrum it never aimed to be part of. Its position is Green politics. HiLo48 ( talk) 03:31, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
Welshboyau11, I suggest that you stop telling editors what their political leanings are, when neither Timeshift or HiLo48 are allowing their political leanings, whatever they are, to influence what they say here. I do not know what political party either of them "personally likes". Are you now going to jump to conclusions about my political leanings? -- Bduke (Discussion) 04:05, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
It's complex. Yes, The Greens have policies in most areas. Some are leftish, some are not, and some are new. They invented Green politics. Giving it a simple label doesn't help anybody. Just tell the readers what the party's policies are on the many issues. Don't try to fit it into an old paradigm.
Welshboyau11 has a major problem. Everyone else here has a biased POV, and he is the only purely objective editor here. If only we were all perfectly rational like him. Just drop the personal bullshit from your argument, admit that you too have a POV, and you might get somewhere. HiLo48 ( talk) 21:43, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
Welshboyau11 ( talk) 23:42, 1 September 2012 (UTC) I think the consensus so far from Independent editors is to go with the change. No Independent editor has completely opposed the change, whilst Anthonyhcole agrees and Itsmejudith is leaning in favour. Let's keep discussion going though. Welshboyau11 ( talk) 23:42, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
Some of the sources again:
Welshboyau11 ( talk) 00:32, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
I've found others, if more are needed. Welshboyau11 ( talk) 01:26, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
The problem here is that "left-wing" is somewhat subjective, especially when contrasted with "centre-left". And the lack of reliable sources in all of this - a public servant's opinion is still an opinion, not a reliable source - is definitely a problem. The Greens also take few economic left positions - as seen by the fact that the Katter party emerged as the key left party in the recent Queensland election (despite its patriarch being thought of by most Australians to be *right* wing.) Also note [26] - not a source, but clearly trying to identify where the Greens sit in "absolute terms", and it's hardly with Vladimir Lenin (or even Mandela, for that matter). Orderinchaos 02:11, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
This discussion is getting lost. I think the issue is whether "left wing" be added to the infobox, on its own with no nuance. There is no issue that I can see whether reliable sources can be used to discuss the political position of the Party. Discussion above shows that the position of members of the Australian Greens is quite nuanced. That should be reflected in the article itself. What I and others are objecting to is the simple minded use of terms in infoboxes to describe complex positions. That is not a matter of sources, but of editorial judgement. So leave that section of the infobox vacant and discuss the political position of the Party in the article itself using reliable sources. -- Bduke (Discussion) 03:00, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
http://wa.greens.org.au/system/files/private/GI%20webaugust2012.pdf - Greens magazine where they say 'Greens are clearly defined as left-wing'. And here Bob Brown agreeing with the description of left-wing http://greensmps.org.au/content/news-stories/peoples-forum-blogging-live. Welshboyau11 ( talk) 04:07, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
This is an appalling thread. In the time I've been out today it seems that Welshboyau11 has decreed that the opinions of myself and several other editors don't count because we are not independent, are part of a mob mentality, and our thoughts are irrelevant. And one of us is "criminally biased". LOL. Anyone starting here with an attitude like that has no hope of ever changing my mind. I think a relevant Wikipedia policy here is WP:Assume good faith. HiLo48 ( talk) 07:21, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
Well, thank you for that insight, both of you. You've managed to refute the extensive and well considered thoughts of many editors with "axiomatically obvious" and "no-brainer". Did you actually read what anybody else said? HiLo48 ( talk) 00:17, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
A coatrack tag has been added to Faithful Word Baptist Church, a very small church that has been labelled as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center. In looking for what any and all reliable sources stated I was only able to find so much and mainly tied to several news incidents:
I'm interested in getting the coatrack tag removed as I feel it indicates we are somehow suppressing or adding information that is not about the group. In asking the editors who support the tag they are convinced this is a coatrack but have been unable to show anything has been added that doesn't belong or that anything is missing. It seems to be a circular discussion so some uninvolved opinions would be appreciated, at least by me. If it is a coatrack what is the way forward to improving it, if it really isn't then what is the path for removing the tag? Any help appreciated. Insomesia ( talk) 02:02, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
Riley Schillaci ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
I nominated this article for speedy deletion [27] due to the fact that Rschilla ( talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log) ( WP:SPA?), who appears to be the subject of the article, created this article as a promotional tool and has maintained ownership, even making legal threats ( diff) in response to non-promotional edits made to the page. Apparently, Goodvac ( talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log) disagreed that the article was non-neutral and contested the speedy (though s/he did nothing to address the apparent COI or the lack of references in the article, nor the apparent lack of notability. I started to remove the most blatant unsourced and non-neutral material, but then there was literally nothing left to stand. Goodvac calls my assertions baseless, so I thought I'd see what the folks here at NPOV/N think. Looking back into the article's history, I have no doubt others will see the same promotional, COI and ownership problems I see. Wilhelm Meis ( ☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 15:17, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
I feel that User:Jeffro77 may not be willing to see that his edit here, which reverted my edit here, is POV. His argument is that my edit is wordy, but I think that it's better to err on the side of wordiness than to keep that statement POV. I need some feedback on this from an outside source. I might even be willing to seek some middle ground to help me find a way to make that statement less wordy, because I do admit that my edit there was on the wordy side. Thanks. Lighthead þ 04:53, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
1)... thing that I do agree with you about is that it is an interesting factoid, but that it's not exactly all that important to include the information regarding deacons. As regards my comment of ruler, while I do feel that you dominate all aspects of that Wikiproject (there is no way I'm not going to accept that he doesn't), it probably wasn't the nicest thing to say about you, and it especially wasn't the right place. And so I essentially retract that comment. The only reason I said that, though, is because that was the reason that I brought up this issue here. I feel like it would have been pointless and going through the motions, and my view of the matter would have been shot down there no matter what. Do you deny that? That was my point about him being the so-called ruler. And that's why 2) I believe that I wasn't canvassing because I'm not the type of person that goes through the motions and wastes time. I don't believe in ritual for the sake of ritual, which I think that Wikipedia tends to veer to way too much of the time. And by the way, would I be canvassing if I accept your viewpoint on that edit as I do now after you explained it on that article's talk page? It doesn't seem so does it. You shouldn't be so quick to accuse people of things, Jeffro, unless you're absolutely sure about it, much less be so quick on the draw to cite guidelines (and yes, they are guidelines and not canon and/or policies), when you think that somebody is overstepping their boundaries. Lighthead þ 06:49, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
In fact it would have been better if I would have researched that link rather than wildly assuming what that edit was about. And yeah, I actually did strike it out right after I made that comment about criticism. So I can see how that was doubly confusing. Lighthead þ 05:29, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
This article reads like a cross between a fanzine and a vanity puff-piece; particularly in sentences like "In 2000, Michael Porter was appointed a Harvard University Professor, the highest professional recognition that can be awarded to a Harvard faculty member." My intrinsic respect for "Harvard Professors" forbids me to speculate that the whole article may be an elaborate practical joke. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.70.198.220 ( talk) 21:45, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
The issue is the use of the word "Journalist" to describe the subject of the article "Nick Christensen (journalist)." The living subject of this biography is a public relations staffer for the Metro regional government in the Portland, Oregon, metropolitan area.
While it's common for journalists to leave their profession and become publicists or media relations persons for government agencies, it's misleading to wikipedia readers for them to refer to themselves as a "journalist" after having done so.
For just one example, see the online job search page http://www.simplyhired.com, which clearly distinguishes "In-House Writer" from "Journalist." For another, in the wikipedia entry for Jay Carney, Mr. Carney is referred to as having previously been a journalist but currently as White House Press Secretary. This is consistent with wikipedia's treatment of other people working in press relations on behalf of political entities.
To my knowledge, there is no other example of a government public relations person being presented in Wikipedia or anywhere else as a "journalist."
I have twice attempted to use broader, more accurate language ("public relations staffer") and another editor --perhaps the subject himself, or an associate --immediately reverts.
This may seem an academic or petty issue, but there is an important role served in society by journalists. A person charged with creating a favorable public perception of their employer is the very opposite of a journalist. Peezy1001 ( talk) 04:05, 11 September 2012 (UTC) I am not an experienced editor but have made contributions over the years where I saw an opportunity to improve Wikipedia. I believe that Wikipedia should be a reliable source of objective information, not a venue for counter-factual spin. I would like the wikipedia community to address the meaning of "Journalism" and whether a person paid by a government agency can qualify. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peezy1001 ( talk • contribs) 03:59, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
Article is subject of long term efforts by COI accounts to use it as a press release, with occasional counter-attempts to add negative content, not always adequately sourced. I've copy edited for neutrality, and though I think it's in a good place now, don't expect that to last long. Further eyes and adding this to watchlists would be appreciated. Thanks, 76.248.149.47 ( talk) 15:09, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
Could someone with more energy and patience for it please take a look at Special:Contributions/108.28.53.169? He seems to primarily do NPOV edits. Thanks. — Kerfuffler 22:35, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
More eyes on this article would be appreciated; it is being used as a coatrack for various incidents of non-censorship and censorship unrelated to Islam by users who refuse to attempt to gain consensus. I'm arguing that relevance is a necessary baseline for inclusion in the article, but making Muslims look bad appears to trump this fairly self-evident necessity. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 17:02, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
Please see the RfC regarding racism and homophobia. Thanks. Jauerback dude?/ dude. 00:52, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
A user added scare quotes to the bolded article title of orgastic potency. This was done to emphasize that the article is about a fringe topic. However, I don't see the relevance nor the propriety in using this extreme level of emphasis to underscore such a point. To me adding scare quotes to the article title seems much over the top in efforts to denigrate the subject, rather than to present it in representative context with respect to its scientific and otherwise standing as well as notability. I attempted to undo the adding of scare quotes, but this was promptly reverted by another user. I'm seeking advise from this noticeboard on the correct application of WP policies and guidelines to this conflict. __ meco ( talk) 08:45, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
Rochester Police Department ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
I just reverted a substantial amount of blanking [29] at this article it seemed too extensive of modification to do with no explanation. However, the IP may a point in that ~2/3's of the article is related to specific criticisms and incidents. I am bringing it here for broader discussion to see if there is consensus that the article needs to be rewritten for neutrality. VQuakr ( talk) 00:19, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
An RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 14:38, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
Eurabia, an article covering the idea that Muslims are overtaking Europe, has been compared to several anti-semitic conspiracy theories, among them the Zionist Occupied Government and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Two sources making such a comparison are as follows:
Very popular political ideas are usually ones that can be explained over a beer in a bar, or at worst in a pamphlet. Marxism had the 23-page Communist manifesto; anti-Semitism had the rollicking forgery Protocols of the Elders of Zion (Ye'or's book reads like the Protocols badly rewritten about Muslims)
Stripped of its Islamic content, the broad contours of Ye'or's preposterous thesis recall the anti-Semitic conspiracy theories of the first half of the twentieth century and contemporary notions of the 'Zionist Occupation Government' prevalent in far-right circles in the US.
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help)The article, and its lead, had included that the theory has been compared to these two anti-semitic conspiracy theories. That has been removed from the lead as "fringe". Does the inclusion of the peer-reviewed article in Race & Class or the article in the Financial Times qualify as "fringe"? nableezy - 17:51, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
4 3 other sources are comparing Eurabia with anti-semitic conspiracy theories and are
currently mentionned in the Wikipedia article:
(follow the link for the exact quotations and references). Visite fortuitement prolongée ( talk) 21:16, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
Cradle110
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).