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Nominator's rationale:merge, the content of this category is not only about ethnic Arabs but also about all sorts of other ethnic groups in the Middle East (Coptic, Assyrian etc.), to such an extent that it almost resembles the Middle East category.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 21:19, 11 April 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Wikipedians whose articles for creation was denied
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Delete per nom.
NLeeuw (
talk) 16:40, 12 April 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Wikipedians who never listen to country music
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Category:Wikipedians who have been abducted by Thebiguglyalien
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Delete per nom, but don't take this as G7, as I created to fix a redlink. Courtesy ping:
Sawyer-mcdonell, who was the first to add this to his userpage. QueenofHearts 20:06, 11 April 2024 (UTC)reply
fine with me ...
sawyer * he/they *
talk 20:08, 11 April 2024 (UTC)reply
comment creator of the category has G7'ed it. —usernamekiran
(talk) 22:42, 11 April 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Wikipedians supporting social democracy
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Category:Wikipedians loving software updates
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Delete per nom, thank you for pointing that out @
Pppery!
Cocobb8 (💬
talk • ✏️
contribs) 22:15, 11 April 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Wikipedians with blue-linked categories on their user page
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The result of the discussion was:delete. From
WP:USERCATNO (linked by the nom):
Categories that are jokes/nonsense
This includes any grouping of users that is patently false (e.g. Wikipedians who are zombies, Wikipedians in their 780s), nonsensical (e.g. Userpages That Are Full Of LOL), undecipherable (e.g. Wikipedians who Watch animals from their POV), or created primarily for humourous or satirical purposes (e.g. Wikipedians who are one of an infinite number of monkeys). (my emphasis).
Category clearly meets this.
(non-admin closure)Qwerfjkltalk 20:14, 20 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I don't believe they were saying it is policy, nor do I think they were saying that it is something that needs to be agreed with. The essay points out a number of weak arguments that seem stronger than they actually are, or that are logical fallacies, etc. In this case, "per nom" is a very weak argument. Strong would be to retype the nom's argument exactly. Stronger still would be to restate the nom's argument in your own words. -
UtherSRG(talk) 16:35, 18 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Copying nom's argument or restating the argument in different words does not add any new argument either, and that is what matters. The point is that nom's argument as such is strong enough to convince other editors.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 18:40, 18 April 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Jewish communities in Palestine temporarily abandoned during the mandate period
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Nominator's rationale: I don't know what to name these categories, but I think they needs more clear names.
Mason (
talk) 03:23, 2 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Sounds good to me
Mason (
talk) 21:01, 5 April 2024 (UTC)reply
To editor
Qwerfjkl:, I request that you reopen this case. No rationale at all was provided for "Jewish villages depopulated in Mandatory Palestine", and it seems like nobody actually checked what the category represents. What this rename means is that almost all the articles in the category will have to be removed from it because these places were only abandoned for a short time before the inhabitants returned. They were not "depopulated". The category will end up with only one or two entries.
Zerotalk 23:12, 10 April 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Qwerfjkl: by all means reopen/relist the discussion. For the record, the objection only applies to the first nominated category.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 16:30, 11 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Reopened per request. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Qwerfjkltalk 18:21, 11 April 2024 (UTC)reply
(Only referring to the first category in this comment.) My first preference is for the category to be deleted, and my second preference is for the current name (with "temporarily") to be kept. There are only a tiny number of places in the list that can reasonably be said to have been "depopulated" and some are not really "communities" (such as a cluster of houses inside a city).
Zerotalk 02:53, 12 April 2024 (UTC)reply
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Natural history
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Doubt I must say I am confused by main article
natural history itself as well. If it is just observation of organisms in their natural environment, why not just "biology"? Most definitions seem to exclude abiotic phenomena such as geology and hydrology, but the category tree often includes them. Without a proper meaning and scope of the term, I suppose I will vote for it to be deleted per
WP:ARBITRARYCAT, but I'm willing to wait for anyone who may clarify the situation.
NLeeuw (
talk) 16:50, 12 April 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Words and phrases by language
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Nominator's rationale: Many subcategories in it have the 'statute', like, ""This category is not for articles about concepts and things but only for articles about the words themselves. Please keep this category purged of everything that is not actually an article about a word or phrase". However I checked a couple and see that people dont care and put there items that are just about subjects that have title in foreingn language, such as e.g.
Goralenvolk,
Gokenin,
Gradonachalnik.
Shall we undertake a really massive cleanup (and put these cats on watchlist to prevent from "contamination", since it will most surely happen )
P.S. While we are at that, it will make sense to double-check the ledes for proper "XXX is a term for YYY" vs. "XXX is YYY". For example two articles about basically same concept but in different cultures introduced dirfferently:
Mazhory (from majors; roughly translates as "the superior ones"[1]) is a slang term used in the Soviet Union and post-Soviet countries for children of privileged people,
vs:
Princelings (Chinese: 太子党), also translated as the Party's Crown Princes, are the descendants of prominent and influential senior communist officials in the People's Republic of China.
If we drop the requirement that the categories only contain articles about words themselves, then they just wouldn't be useful.
Wikipedia is not a dictionary. A category containing every article that is a word in a specific language would be far too inclusive. dummelaksen (
talk •
contribs) 20:02, 26 March 2024 (UTC)reply
I dont think WP:NOTDICTIONARY is applicable here. Besides, We have articles such as
Yiddish words used in English. Shouldn't the list items with articles be in a matching category?-
Altenmann>talk 20:09, 26 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Not necessarily, I don't think so. The article you mention already fulfills that exact purpose. Essentially my point is that if we drop the requirement in question then articles would be categorised purely based on their titles and not their scope, which I think is
overcategorisation. It's not a very strong example of it, so I understand your concern, but I still think it's better if these categories of words and phrases only contain articles about words and phrases. dummelaksen (
talk •
contribs) 20:35, 28 March 2024 (UTC)reply
ETA: I think list articles, like
Yiddish words used in English, are a much better idea actually. I would be completely fine with list articles like those instead of putting non-word articles in the words categories. dummelaksen (
talk •
contribs) 20:39, 28 March 2024 (UTC)reply
The instruction on these category pages isn't clear at all. We should either remove the requirement or delete the categories.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 23:02, 26 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Words exist for the very purpose of referring to a concept or thing. It is not very well imaginable that we have articles about words that do not also discuss the meaning of the words.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 22:51, 28 March 2024 (UTC)reply
That's fair. Almost every article should have a definition of its title but most articles are much more than just the meaning and usage of the word. In that case, the header should read "articles about the usage of the word in language" or something else to that effect. dummelaksen (
talk •
contribs) 23:11, 28 March 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Dummelaksen: let me rephrase this slightly: "articles mainly about the usage of the word in language". The question is how much % of the article should be about the usage of the word in language in order to qualify for the category.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 05:09, 29 March 2024 (UTC)reply
A good article should be about one thing and one thing only, i.e. an article should be about the word itself, or not about the word itself. So ideally, 100%. In reality a lot of articles in these categories aren't written well so are about the concept, but are inappropriately written like dictionary definitions.
I've been very conservative thus far, and only removed articles that are clearly about concepts, but many of these articles should be rewritten to avoid
WP:NOTDICT and
WP:REFERSTO. dummelaksen (
talk •
contribs) 05:38, 29 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Should this category continue to exist? If so, how should it be organized? Specific proposals on the latter point would be appreciated! Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (
talk · he/him) 14:59, 3 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Basically there are only two options: do nothing or delete. In the first option we may remove the requirement but even when the requirement is kept it will be ignored so the result is the same.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 20:10, 6 April 2024 (UTC)reply
A rule (for lack of a better word) being ignored isn't reason to just give up and delete the categories though. dummelaksen (
talk •
contribs) 16:07, 7 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Qwerfjkltalk 14:56, 11 April 2024 (UTC)reply
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Delete per
WP:OCAWARD. If kept, we would probably need an English-language source to check the spelling in English.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 16:43, 11 April 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:South Dakota state representatives
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Category:Czech saints
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Nominator's rationale:WP:CROSSCAT. Not sure if this phenomenon has been discussed before, but I couldn't find it in the CFD archives. I'm nominating this to initiate a preliminary discussion on the wider
Category:Christian saints by nationality tree, as I see several issues with the selection criteria in many parts of this tree, and this particular category exemplifies them well.
A. Objectivity and verifiability: Whoever is considered a "saint" or not is inherently subjective and
WP:POV. If this is even the 'job' of Wikipedia to start with, the only way to objectively categorise saints is by the authority of a relevant religious organisation (in this case a church or denomination), which has officially canonised a person as a saint in verifiable publications (
WP:V +
WP:RS). Perhaps one person is canonised by multiple organisations, and perhaps lots of individuals in a community or society unofficially believe in a person's sainthood, but we may assume that the rest of the world, by default, does not accept anyone's sainthood, especially not of anyone in a religious denomination other than their own (if any). Certain denominations such as Calvinist churches even vehemently oppose the very idea of sainthood as blasphemous, and don't recognise the saints of any other church either. It's always a saint according to church X. I think we can all agree on that.
B. Relevance of nationality: "Nationality" seems irrelevant. Generally speaking, secular authorities like states and governments are not in the business of canonising saints. It might be that the feasts of certain saints are established as public holidays (say,
Saint Patrick's Day in Ireland and some other jurisdictions), and that there is some official symbolism devoted to a saint, but it's not the Republic of Ireland's business to say who is a saint and who isn't. (Proclaiming "national heroes" maybe, but that's a separate issue). Similarly, it's not the Czech Republic's business to accord sainthood to, say,
Jan Hus. There seems to be no particular connection between sainthood (a religious legal status) and nationality (a secular legal status). This is why I'm leaning towards regarding the whole saints by nationality tree an inappropriate
WP:CROSSCAT.
C. Original research: Finally, even if nationality somehow were an appropriate attribute of a saint, a great number of these saints lived at a time when the present-day states did not exist yet. The Czech Republic wasn't founded until 1993, the Republic of Ireland not until 1922/1937/1949 (depending on one's view), the Netherlands not until 1581/1648/1813/1815 etc., so how could there be such a thing as medieval "Czech", "Dutch", "Irish" etc. saints? This seems obvious
WP:OR, driven by modern nationalism to arbitrarily claim various elements of the past for a modern political entity. The catdesc of
Category:Christian saints by nationality seems to confirm this: This category is for articles about saints by the country they were from or are associated with. That's a textbook example of
WP:ASSOCIATEDWITH. Given that the relevance of "nationality" is already shaky, this seems even more reason to get rid of this kind of
WP:ARBITRARYCAT.
I don't rule out the possibility that this category tree may be legitimate and useful after all. But I think we should at least discuss why we should have it or not. I'm also not picking on Czech saints in particular, it's just a very good example to illustrate the issues I'm seeing across the tree. (E.g. with "French saints" I wouldn't be able to raise point C. very well, as France's statehood arguably goes much further back and could arguably capture most medieval saints.) I would love to hear your thoughts. This is a large tree, we shouldn't be making rash decisions.
NLeeuw (
talk) 19:14, 3 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Fair enough, but you'll notice I've invoked many more specific guidelines in my rationale:
WP:POV,
WP:V,
WP:RS (these 3 issues can be overcome within the
Category:Saints by religion tree, but not, I think, in the
Category:Saints by nationality tree), relevance (I think nationality is
WP:NONDEFINING for saints, because sainthood is not established through secular law, but ecclesiastical law, and denominations such as the Catholic Church and Constantinople Patriarchate operate internationally),
WP:OR,
WP:ASSOCIATEDWITH, and
WP:ARBITRARYCAT.
NLeeuw (
talk) 03:03, 4 April 2024 (UTC)reply
A. Objectivity and verifiability: I agree that you can argue there is a legitimate POV concern about
Category:Christian saints.
B. Relevance of nationality:Category:Christian saints is a large category, so it is useful for navigation to
WP:DIFFUSE it. Nationality is an accepted basis for diffusing large categories, so I would suggest keeping national categories unless a better method can be found. Nationality is relevant as churches such as the Catholic Church and Constantinople Patriarchate are divided into national units, such as the
Catholic Church in the Czech Republic and the
Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia. It is therefore not a
WP:ARBITRARYCAT. Until the French Revolution, churches and secular governments in Europe were closely integrated and monarchs had an interest in who was canonised in their realms. Sometimes a saint would be canonised after being killed on behalf of a monarch. However sainthood should be a defining characterstic members of
Category:Christian saints. If this is not the case for
Jan Hus, he should not be in the category.
I agree with you that diffusing large categories is important for smooth navigation, but I agree with Marcocapelle below that Christian saints [should] only be diffused by century and no longer by nationality.
I'm afraid the ecclesiastical organisation argument shoots itself in the foot. Church provinces coinciding with national borders is a very modern phenomenon, and not even the Catholic Church has enough adherents in every country to have a province for each of them. Take the example of the map on the right there, showing that in the Middle Ages the borders of archdioceses in the Low Countries almost completely ignored the country borders that exist today (because those country borders didn't exist at the time either).
Evidently,
Jan Hus was executed by the Catholic Church, which up until today regards him as a heretic and an enemy, whereas some but not all Orthodox and Lutheran denominations have canonised Hus as a saint. The sources provided -
64 and
65; two copies of the same 2011 interview with
Christopher of Prague - state that Jan Hus has been canonised as a saint by the (Orthodox)
Church of Greece,
Church of Cyprus, and the
Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia. Only the last one is relevant if we are to decide whether Hus is a "Czech" saint or not, and according to the 2021 Czech Republic census, only 0.4% of the population is a member of the Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia. The
Czechoslovak Hussite Church bears his name and acknowledges him as their predecessor, but There is no veneration of saints as practiced in the Apostolic Churches, and they constituted only 0.2% of the Czech population in 2021. In fact, we might look at
Religion in the Czech Republic as a whole and see that almost half of Czechs have no religion at all, fewer than 10% are Catholics (who officially regard Hus as a heretic), and the few who hold Hus in high regard don't even show up in the piechart. Besides, the two categories declaring Jan Hus a "Lutheran saint" are not backed up by sources at all. So, all religious denominations in Czechia today who recognise Hus as a saint combined barely represent the Czech population. Who are we Wikipedians to say that Hus is their "saint"? The Orthodox Greeks and Cypriots who nominally believe in his sainthood probably outnumber the Czechs who do. Nationality is just completely irrelevant here.
NLeeuw I am arguing that we usually categorise people by nationality, so it helps navigation to categorise saints by nationality as well.
Church provinces coinciding with national borders is not a modern phenomenon: the original
dioceses were based on
Roman dioceses. I will agree that the borders church provinces did not always and immediately change to follow state boundaries. However, as I argued earlier churches and secular governments in western Europe Europe were closely integrated, this can be seen in the
History of Christianity in the Czech lands. Differing boundaries are an issue for subcategories of
Category:Czech people and
Category:Dutch people in general, not particularly for the saints categories.
As to Jan Hus, the sourced text of the article should show that being a saint is a defining characteristic, which it apparently doesn't, so he could be removed from the category. Most of the contents of the Czech saints category is in
Category:Czech Roman Catholic saints. Should that be nominated for deletion as well? Most of the members of that category are clearly connected to Bohemia and Moravia.
TSventon (
talk) 23:21, 7 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Czech Roman Catholic saints is more specific, because that has a denomination or religious organisation behind it. I'm still not sure about the "Czech" part, but on the whole it is indeed less problematic.
I think you may be right that Jan Hus should be removed from all or some saints categories, especially the Lutheran ones as long as the article doesn't say anything about it.
For nationalities categories, we've been having a lot of constructive dialogue and agreements in recent years, including
Category:People from the Kingdom of Bohemia, where Hus probably belongs.
NLeeuw (
talk) 06:03, 8 April 2024 (UTC)reply
A is not so much a problem because Christian churches have set procedures for sainthood attribution. For more clarity the category may be renamed from "saints" to "Christian saints" though. B is a problem not in itself but because ofC. For that reason I would suggest Christian saints only to be diffused by century and no longer by nationality.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 16:58, 4 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I think your last suggestion is a rather useful one. (Although the earliest people later canonised as saints often have unclear lifespans; I'm thinking about
Alban of Mainz, for example). Even if C weren't a problem, saints and nationality are still a contestable intersection as long as nationality is
WP:NONDEFINING with regards to sainthood. The very nature of Christianity as a missionary religion with universal aspirations (that is, it seeks to convert all humanity, not just all members of the tribe / ethnicity / country / polity etc. it originated in) makes it arguably "internationalist", and nationality an irrelevant, modern invention. For navigational purposes we might have been pragmatic if "national" borders had been stable for the past 2000+ years (B), but they haven't (C), so...
NLeeuw (
talk) 06:19, 8 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep. Part of
Category:Christian saints by nationality, a large category tree. May not always be strictly accurate, but modern nationalities are commonly used for saints (i.e. they are especially venerated in the current countries from whose territory they originated). Categorisation of saints is clearly useful and it would not be advantageous to Wikipedia if we decided for NPOV reasons that saints weren't saints, as that is generally why they are notable. --
Necrothesp (
talk) 13:35, 9 April 2024 (UTC)reply
The size of a category tree is irrelevant if the tree itself is inappropriate to Wikipedia standards. It just means we need to be careful when dismantling or reorganising it.
As explained above, less than 1% of Czechs seems to venerate Jan Hus as a saint. (Nominally, there are probably more Greeks and Cypriots who do than Czechs). His main notability stems from the fact that the
Hussite Wars are named after him (as his religious teachings ideologically influenced the conflict), not that a fringe church in the 20th or 21st century canonised him as a saint.
Categorisation of saints may be useful, but categorisation by what? E.g. we could categorise them by their favourite colour or their astrological sign, but those wouldn't be useful. Categories need to be
WP:DEFINING.
As explained above, sainthood is always a POV. Some points of view are worth noting, but others are
WP:UNDUE. Wikipedia is not in the business of extensively documenting the beliefs of very small religious, political or other groups with near-zero cultural impact.
NLeeuw (
talk) 12:27, 11 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete primordialism is not a point of view that is widely accepted in the nationality studies field. Wikipedia should certainly not take it for granted with ill advised categories that project the current state of the Czech Republic beyond the 19th century nationalist movement into the medieval past, when modern nationality just didn't exist. "Saints from Bohemia" would be OK but non-defining, for the reasons explained above. (
t ·
c) buidhe 01:27, 10 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I'm happy with that. But what's wrong with
Category:Bohemian saints? I don't think they're likely to be confused with the other meaning of "Bohemian"!-
Necrothesp (
talk) 10:57, 10 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Consistent with other "from Bohemia" categories, and also e.g. with "from Georgia (country)" categories.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 18:14, 10 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, QueenofHearts 02:57, 11 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment I have taken a closer look at the interview with the archbishop of Prague about Jan Hus, and it seems that even the
Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia has not yet canonised Jan Hus and his follower Jerome of Prague as "saints" or "martyrs". There is only lobbying going on for them to be canonised at some point in the future, which the archbishop supports. The interviewer asks: Jan Hus and Jerome of Prague died a martyr's death for Christ's truth. Their memory lives on not only in Czechia. Your Beatitude, why have they not been canonized as saints? The archbishop gives various reasons why they haven't yet been, and then gives various reasons why they should be: ...Jan Hus and Jerome of Prague, died for the undistorted faith, for the pure faith of Christ—that is, for Orthodoxy. Therefore we are completely justified in canonizing them as saints. This has already been confirmed by the Church of Cyprus and the Greek Church. Other Orthodox Churches also support us. The penultimate sentence there is ambiguous: it could be read as that the Church of Cyprus and Greek Church have already canonised Hus and Prague as saints, or it could merely be a formal expression of support for the idea to canonise them as saints. This seems to be the core of the misunderstanding that Hus and Prague are already saints in those Orthodox Churches (which until now I also thought), but the interviewer's question indicates otherwise. (Incidentally, the archbishop saying that Hus and Prague died for "Orthodoxy" is his personal interpretation; some Protestant theologians may say they died for "proto-Protestantism", see below).
Second, I did find that there is some historical evidence that the
Utraquists in the 16th century
believed, described and praised them as saints, but they existed when there was no Czech Republic yet, and now that there is the Utraquists no longer exist. They were also a completely different denomination that is usually considered Protestant or "Proto-Protestant".
Category:Hussite martyrs is a child of
Category:15th-century proto-Protestant martyrs, which I find to be quite
WP:SUBJECTIVECAT as well. I think this a good demonstration of how arbitrary and messy thus sainthood stuff can get, especially when we mix it up with nationality rather than by denomination (which is already messy enough).
NLeeuw (
talk) 13:17, 11 April 2024 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was:procedural keep. The nominator is welcome to start a broader discussion on the matter (and I'm happy to help with mass noms if need be).
(non-admin closure)Qwerfjkltalk 20:42, 21 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (
talk · he/him) 02:45, 11 April 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Shumang Kumhei
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Nominator's rationale: Tiny category of just two articles (that are mutually linked).
PepperBeast(talk) 04:24, 3 April 2024 (UTC)reply
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talk · he/him) 02:34, 11 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Merge to parent categories per nom.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 05:54, 11 April 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Meitei script
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Nominator's rationale: Grab-bag of stuff defined by some use of a particular writing system...
WP:TRIVIALCATPepperBeast(talk) 04:30, 3 April 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Non-binary people by sexual orientation
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Possibly delete as a trivial intersection.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 06:17, 3 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Support rename, and neutral on delete. But if we do delete we ought to manually merge the pages to the respective parents.
Mason (
talk) 13:39, 3 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete non-defining intersection. (
t ·
c) buidhe 01:30, 10 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Rename or delete? Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (
talk · he/him) 02:20, 11 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment if this is deleted, make sure the articles are in the relevant non-intersection categories, as Mason says.
-sche (
talk) 02:54, 12 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Personally, I support renaming the categories you have proposed, as I think it would make it easier for users and readers. I do not support a delete.
Historyday01 (
talk) 23:04, 13 April 2024 (UTC)reply
There is definitely some linkages, I agree, but as far as I can tell it hasn't made its way into RS yet. Bisexual men & women should be deleted because they are not defining for the individual even if there are specific stereotypes about the intersection of sexuality & gender in those cases. (
t ·
c) buidhe 00:49, 14 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep, neutral on rename. It's a bit confusing at the moment because of the recent asexual/LGBT re-org that is at CfD elsewhere. But assuming
Category:Asexual non-binary people gets returned to be a subcategory of
Category:Asexual people, it is a necessary subcategory due to the parent cat being fully diffused by gender (
Asexual men,
Asexual women,
Asexual non-binary people). Without it, a non-binary person that does not identify as a man or a woman could not be categorized as asexual. Same with
Category:Bisexual people (
Bisexual men,
Bisexual women,
Bisexual non-binary people). The current name order matches the pattern when viewed from the sexual orientation parent category; the proposed order would match the order when viewed from the non-binary parent category, so that seems to me to be a wash.--
Trystan (
talk) 02:36, 14 April 2024 (UTC)reply
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Nominator's rationale:merge, the content of this category is not only about ethnic Arabs but also about all sorts of other ethnic groups in the Middle East (Coptic, Assyrian etc.), to such an extent that it almost resembles the Middle East category.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 21:19, 11 April 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Wikipedians whose articles for creation was denied
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Delete per nom.
NLeeuw (
talk) 16:40, 12 April 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Wikipedians who never listen to country music
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Category:Wikipedians who have been abducted by Thebiguglyalien
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Delete per nom, but don't take this as G7, as I created to fix a redlink. Courtesy ping:
Sawyer-mcdonell, who was the first to add this to his userpage. QueenofHearts 20:06, 11 April 2024 (UTC)reply
fine with me ...
sawyer * he/they *
talk 20:08, 11 April 2024 (UTC)reply
comment creator of the category has G7'ed it. —usernamekiran
(talk) 22:42, 11 April 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Wikipedians supporting social democracy
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Category:Wikipedians loving software updates
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Delete per nom, thank you for pointing that out @
Pppery!
Cocobb8 (💬
talk • ✏️
contribs) 22:15, 11 April 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Wikipedians with blue-linked categories on their user page
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The result of the discussion was:delete. From
WP:USERCATNO (linked by the nom):
Categories that are jokes/nonsense
This includes any grouping of users that is patently false (e.g. Wikipedians who are zombies, Wikipedians in their 780s), nonsensical (e.g. Userpages That Are Full Of LOL), undecipherable (e.g. Wikipedians who Watch animals from their POV), or created primarily for humourous or satirical purposes (e.g. Wikipedians who are one of an infinite number of monkeys). (my emphasis).
Category clearly meets this.
(non-admin closure)Qwerfjkltalk 20:14, 20 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I don't believe they were saying it is policy, nor do I think they were saying that it is something that needs to be agreed with. The essay points out a number of weak arguments that seem stronger than they actually are, or that are logical fallacies, etc. In this case, "per nom" is a very weak argument. Strong would be to retype the nom's argument exactly. Stronger still would be to restate the nom's argument in your own words. -
UtherSRG(talk) 16:35, 18 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Copying nom's argument or restating the argument in different words does not add any new argument either, and that is what matters. The point is that nom's argument as such is strong enough to convince other editors.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 18:40, 18 April 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Jewish communities in Palestine temporarily abandoned during the mandate period
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Nominator's rationale: I don't know what to name these categories, but I think they needs more clear names.
Mason (
talk) 03:23, 2 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Sounds good to me
Mason (
talk) 21:01, 5 April 2024 (UTC)reply
To editor
Qwerfjkl:, I request that you reopen this case. No rationale at all was provided for "Jewish villages depopulated in Mandatory Palestine", and it seems like nobody actually checked what the category represents. What this rename means is that almost all the articles in the category will have to be removed from it because these places were only abandoned for a short time before the inhabitants returned. They were not "depopulated". The category will end up with only one or two entries.
Zerotalk 23:12, 10 April 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Qwerfjkl: by all means reopen/relist the discussion. For the record, the objection only applies to the first nominated category.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 16:30, 11 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Reopened per request. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Qwerfjkltalk 18:21, 11 April 2024 (UTC)reply
(Only referring to the first category in this comment.) My first preference is for the category to be deleted, and my second preference is for the current name (with "temporarily") to be kept. There are only a tiny number of places in the list that can reasonably be said to have been "depopulated" and some are not really "communities" (such as a cluster of houses inside a city).
Zerotalk 02:53, 12 April 2024 (UTC)reply
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Natural history
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Doubt I must say I am confused by main article
natural history itself as well. If it is just observation of organisms in their natural environment, why not just "biology"? Most definitions seem to exclude abiotic phenomena such as geology and hydrology, but the category tree often includes them. Without a proper meaning and scope of the term, I suppose I will vote for it to be deleted per
WP:ARBITRARYCAT, but I'm willing to wait for anyone who may clarify the situation.
NLeeuw (
talk) 16:50, 12 April 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Words and phrases by language
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Nominator's rationale: Many subcategories in it have the 'statute', like, ""This category is not for articles about concepts and things but only for articles about the words themselves. Please keep this category purged of everything that is not actually an article about a word or phrase". However I checked a couple and see that people dont care and put there items that are just about subjects that have title in foreingn language, such as e.g.
Goralenvolk,
Gokenin,
Gradonachalnik.
Shall we undertake a really massive cleanup (and put these cats on watchlist to prevent from "contamination", since it will most surely happen )
P.S. While we are at that, it will make sense to double-check the ledes for proper "XXX is a term for YYY" vs. "XXX is YYY". For example two articles about basically same concept but in different cultures introduced dirfferently:
Mazhory (from majors; roughly translates as "the superior ones"[1]) is a slang term used in the Soviet Union and post-Soviet countries for children of privileged people,
vs:
Princelings (Chinese: 太子党), also translated as the Party's Crown Princes, are the descendants of prominent and influential senior communist officials in the People's Republic of China.
If we drop the requirement that the categories only contain articles about words themselves, then they just wouldn't be useful.
Wikipedia is not a dictionary. A category containing every article that is a word in a specific language would be far too inclusive. dummelaksen (
talk •
contribs) 20:02, 26 March 2024 (UTC)reply
I dont think WP:NOTDICTIONARY is applicable here. Besides, We have articles such as
Yiddish words used in English. Shouldn't the list items with articles be in a matching category?-
Altenmann>talk 20:09, 26 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Not necessarily, I don't think so. The article you mention already fulfills that exact purpose. Essentially my point is that if we drop the requirement in question then articles would be categorised purely based on their titles and not their scope, which I think is
overcategorisation. It's not a very strong example of it, so I understand your concern, but I still think it's better if these categories of words and phrases only contain articles about words and phrases. dummelaksen (
talk •
contribs) 20:35, 28 March 2024 (UTC)reply
ETA: I think list articles, like
Yiddish words used in English, are a much better idea actually. I would be completely fine with list articles like those instead of putting non-word articles in the words categories. dummelaksen (
talk •
contribs) 20:39, 28 March 2024 (UTC)reply
The instruction on these category pages isn't clear at all. We should either remove the requirement or delete the categories.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 23:02, 26 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Words exist for the very purpose of referring to a concept or thing. It is not very well imaginable that we have articles about words that do not also discuss the meaning of the words.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 22:51, 28 March 2024 (UTC)reply
That's fair. Almost every article should have a definition of its title but most articles are much more than just the meaning and usage of the word. In that case, the header should read "articles about the usage of the word in language" or something else to that effect. dummelaksen (
talk •
contribs) 23:11, 28 March 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Dummelaksen: let me rephrase this slightly: "articles mainly about the usage of the word in language". The question is how much % of the article should be about the usage of the word in language in order to qualify for the category.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 05:09, 29 March 2024 (UTC)reply
A good article should be about one thing and one thing only, i.e. an article should be about the word itself, or not about the word itself. So ideally, 100%. In reality a lot of articles in these categories aren't written well so are about the concept, but are inappropriately written like dictionary definitions.
I've been very conservative thus far, and only removed articles that are clearly about concepts, but many of these articles should be rewritten to avoid
WP:NOTDICT and
WP:REFERSTO. dummelaksen (
talk •
contribs) 05:38, 29 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Should this category continue to exist? If so, how should it be organized? Specific proposals on the latter point would be appreciated! Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (
talk · he/him) 14:59, 3 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Basically there are only two options: do nothing or delete. In the first option we may remove the requirement but even when the requirement is kept it will be ignored so the result is the same.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 20:10, 6 April 2024 (UTC)reply
A rule (for lack of a better word) being ignored isn't reason to just give up and delete the categories though. dummelaksen (
talk •
contribs) 16:07, 7 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Qwerfjkltalk 14:56, 11 April 2024 (UTC)reply
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Delete per
WP:OCAWARD. If kept, we would probably need an English-language source to check the spelling in English.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 16:43, 11 April 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:South Dakota state representatives
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Category:Czech saints
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Nominator's rationale:WP:CROSSCAT. Not sure if this phenomenon has been discussed before, but I couldn't find it in the CFD archives. I'm nominating this to initiate a preliminary discussion on the wider
Category:Christian saints by nationality tree, as I see several issues with the selection criteria in many parts of this tree, and this particular category exemplifies them well.
A. Objectivity and verifiability: Whoever is considered a "saint" or not is inherently subjective and
WP:POV. If this is even the 'job' of Wikipedia to start with, the only way to objectively categorise saints is by the authority of a relevant religious organisation (in this case a church or denomination), which has officially canonised a person as a saint in verifiable publications (
WP:V +
WP:RS). Perhaps one person is canonised by multiple organisations, and perhaps lots of individuals in a community or society unofficially believe in a person's sainthood, but we may assume that the rest of the world, by default, does not accept anyone's sainthood, especially not of anyone in a religious denomination other than their own (if any). Certain denominations such as Calvinist churches even vehemently oppose the very idea of sainthood as blasphemous, and don't recognise the saints of any other church either. It's always a saint according to church X. I think we can all agree on that.
B. Relevance of nationality: "Nationality" seems irrelevant. Generally speaking, secular authorities like states and governments are not in the business of canonising saints. It might be that the feasts of certain saints are established as public holidays (say,
Saint Patrick's Day in Ireland and some other jurisdictions), and that there is some official symbolism devoted to a saint, but it's not the Republic of Ireland's business to say who is a saint and who isn't. (Proclaiming "national heroes" maybe, but that's a separate issue). Similarly, it's not the Czech Republic's business to accord sainthood to, say,
Jan Hus. There seems to be no particular connection between sainthood (a religious legal status) and nationality (a secular legal status). This is why I'm leaning towards regarding the whole saints by nationality tree an inappropriate
WP:CROSSCAT.
C. Original research: Finally, even if nationality somehow were an appropriate attribute of a saint, a great number of these saints lived at a time when the present-day states did not exist yet. The Czech Republic wasn't founded until 1993, the Republic of Ireland not until 1922/1937/1949 (depending on one's view), the Netherlands not until 1581/1648/1813/1815 etc., so how could there be such a thing as medieval "Czech", "Dutch", "Irish" etc. saints? This seems obvious
WP:OR, driven by modern nationalism to arbitrarily claim various elements of the past for a modern political entity. The catdesc of
Category:Christian saints by nationality seems to confirm this: This category is for articles about saints by the country they were from or are associated with. That's a textbook example of
WP:ASSOCIATEDWITH. Given that the relevance of "nationality" is already shaky, this seems even more reason to get rid of this kind of
WP:ARBITRARYCAT.
I don't rule out the possibility that this category tree may be legitimate and useful after all. But I think we should at least discuss why we should have it or not. I'm also not picking on Czech saints in particular, it's just a very good example to illustrate the issues I'm seeing across the tree. (E.g. with "French saints" I wouldn't be able to raise point C. very well, as France's statehood arguably goes much further back and could arguably capture most medieval saints.) I would love to hear your thoughts. This is a large tree, we shouldn't be making rash decisions.
NLeeuw (
talk) 19:14, 3 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Fair enough, but you'll notice I've invoked many more specific guidelines in my rationale:
WP:POV,
WP:V,
WP:RS (these 3 issues can be overcome within the
Category:Saints by religion tree, but not, I think, in the
Category:Saints by nationality tree), relevance (I think nationality is
WP:NONDEFINING for saints, because sainthood is not established through secular law, but ecclesiastical law, and denominations such as the Catholic Church and Constantinople Patriarchate operate internationally),
WP:OR,
WP:ASSOCIATEDWITH, and
WP:ARBITRARYCAT.
NLeeuw (
talk) 03:03, 4 April 2024 (UTC)reply
A. Objectivity and verifiability: I agree that you can argue there is a legitimate POV concern about
Category:Christian saints.
B. Relevance of nationality:Category:Christian saints is a large category, so it is useful for navigation to
WP:DIFFUSE it. Nationality is an accepted basis for diffusing large categories, so I would suggest keeping national categories unless a better method can be found. Nationality is relevant as churches such as the Catholic Church and Constantinople Patriarchate are divided into national units, such as the
Catholic Church in the Czech Republic and the
Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia. It is therefore not a
WP:ARBITRARYCAT. Until the French Revolution, churches and secular governments in Europe were closely integrated and monarchs had an interest in who was canonised in their realms. Sometimes a saint would be canonised after being killed on behalf of a monarch. However sainthood should be a defining characterstic members of
Category:Christian saints. If this is not the case for
Jan Hus, he should not be in the category.
I agree with you that diffusing large categories is important for smooth navigation, but I agree with Marcocapelle below that Christian saints [should] only be diffused by century and no longer by nationality.
I'm afraid the ecclesiastical organisation argument shoots itself in the foot. Church provinces coinciding with national borders is a very modern phenomenon, and not even the Catholic Church has enough adherents in every country to have a province for each of them. Take the example of the map on the right there, showing that in the Middle Ages the borders of archdioceses in the Low Countries almost completely ignored the country borders that exist today (because those country borders didn't exist at the time either).
Evidently,
Jan Hus was executed by the Catholic Church, which up until today regards him as a heretic and an enemy, whereas some but not all Orthodox and Lutheran denominations have canonised Hus as a saint. The sources provided -
64 and
65; two copies of the same 2011 interview with
Christopher of Prague - state that Jan Hus has been canonised as a saint by the (Orthodox)
Church of Greece,
Church of Cyprus, and the
Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia. Only the last one is relevant if we are to decide whether Hus is a "Czech" saint or not, and according to the 2021 Czech Republic census, only 0.4% of the population is a member of the Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia. The
Czechoslovak Hussite Church bears his name and acknowledges him as their predecessor, but There is no veneration of saints as practiced in the Apostolic Churches, and they constituted only 0.2% of the Czech population in 2021. In fact, we might look at
Religion in the Czech Republic as a whole and see that almost half of Czechs have no religion at all, fewer than 10% are Catholics (who officially regard Hus as a heretic), and the few who hold Hus in high regard don't even show up in the piechart. Besides, the two categories declaring Jan Hus a "Lutheran saint" are not backed up by sources at all. So, all religious denominations in Czechia today who recognise Hus as a saint combined barely represent the Czech population. Who are we Wikipedians to say that Hus is their "saint"? The Orthodox Greeks and Cypriots who nominally believe in his sainthood probably outnumber the Czechs who do. Nationality is just completely irrelevant here.
NLeeuw I am arguing that we usually categorise people by nationality, so it helps navigation to categorise saints by nationality as well.
Church provinces coinciding with national borders is not a modern phenomenon: the original
dioceses were based on
Roman dioceses. I will agree that the borders church provinces did not always and immediately change to follow state boundaries. However, as I argued earlier churches and secular governments in western Europe Europe were closely integrated, this can be seen in the
History of Christianity in the Czech lands. Differing boundaries are an issue for subcategories of
Category:Czech people and
Category:Dutch people in general, not particularly for the saints categories.
As to Jan Hus, the sourced text of the article should show that being a saint is a defining characteristic, which it apparently doesn't, so he could be removed from the category. Most of the contents of the Czech saints category is in
Category:Czech Roman Catholic saints. Should that be nominated for deletion as well? Most of the members of that category are clearly connected to Bohemia and Moravia.
TSventon (
talk) 23:21, 7 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Czech Roman Catholic saints is more specific, because that has a denomination or religious organisation behind it. I'm still not sure about the "Czech" part, but on the whole it is indeed less problematic.
I think you may be right that Jan Hus should be removed from all or some saints categories, especially the Lutheran ones as long as the article doesn't say anything about it.
For nationalities categories, we've been having a lot of constructive dialogue and agreements in recent years, including
Category:People from the Kingdom of Bohemia, where Hus probably belongs.
NLeeuw (
talk) 06:03, 8 April 2024 (UTC)reply
A is not so much a problem because Christian churches have set procedures for sainthood attribution. For more clarity the category may be renamed from "saints" to "Christian saints" though. B is a problem not in itself but because ofC. For that reason I would suggest Christian saints only to be diffused by century and no longer by nationality.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 16:58, 4 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I think your last suggestion is a rather useful one. (Although the earliest people later canonised as saints often have unclear lifespans; I'm thinking about
Alban of Mainz, for example). Even if C weren't a problem, saints and nationality are still a contestable intersection as long as nationality is
WP:NONDEFINING with regards to sainthood. The very nature of Christianity as a missionary religion with universal aspirations (that is, it seeks to convert all humanity, not just all members of the tribe / ethnicity / country / polity etc. it originated in) makes it arguably "internationalist", and nationality an irrelevant, modern invention. For navigational purposes we might have been pragmatic if "national" borders had been stable for the past 2000+ years (B), but they haven't (C), so...
NLeeuw (
talk) 06:19, 8 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep. Part of
Category:Christian saints by nationality, a large category tree. May not always be strictly accurate, but modern nationalities are commonly used for saints (i.e. they are especially venerated in the current countries from whose territory they originated). Categorisation of saints is clearly useful and it would not be advantageous to Wikipedia if we decided for NPOV reasons that saints weren't saints, as that is generally why they are notable. --
Necrothesp (
talk) 13:35, 9 April 2024 (UTC)reply
The size of a category tree is irrelevant if the tree itself is inappropriate to Wikipedia standards. It just means we need to be careful when dismantling or reorganising it.
As explained above, less than 1% of Czechs seems to venerate Jan Hus as a saint. (Nominally, there are probably more Greeks and Cypriots who do than Czechs). His main notability stems from the fact that the
Hussite Wars are named after him (as his religious teachings ideologically influenced the conflict), not that a fringe church in the 20th or 21st century canonised him as a saint.
Categorisation of saints may be useful, but categorisation by what? E.g. we could categorise them by their favourite colour or their astrological sign, but those wouldn't be useful. Categories need to be
WP:DEFINING.
As explained above, sainthood is always a POV. Some points of view are worth noting, but others are
WP:UNDUE. Wikipedia is not in the business of extensively documenting the beliefs of very small religious, political or other groups with near-zero cultural impact.
NLeeuw (
talk) 12:27, 11 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete primordialism is not a point of view that is widely accepted in the nationality studies field. Wikipedia should certainly not take it for granted with ill advised categories that project the current state of the Czech Republic beyond the 19th century nationalist movement into the medieval past, when modern nationality just didn't exist. "Saints from Bohemia" would be OK but non-defining, for the reasons explained above. (
t ·
c) buidhe 01:27, 10 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I'm happy with that. But what's wrong with
Category:Bohemian saints? I don't think they're likely to be confused with the other meaning of "Bohemian"!-
Necrothesp (
talk) 10:57, 10 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Consistent with other "from Bohemia" categories, and also e.g. with "from Georgia (country)" categories.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 18:14, 10 April 2024 (UTC)reply
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Comment I have taken a closer look at the interview with the archbishop of Prague about Jan Hus, and it seems that even the
Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia has not yet canonised Jan Hus and his follower Jerome of Prague as "saints" or "martyrs". There is only lobbying going on for them to be canonised at some point in the future, which the archbishop supports. The interviewer asks: Jan Hus and Jerome of Prague died a martyr's death for Christ's truth. Their memory lives on not only in Czechia. Your Beatitude, why have they not been canonized as saints? The archbishop gives various reasons why they haven't yet been, and then gives various reasons why they should be: ...Jan Hus and Jerome of Prague, died for the undistorted faith, for the pure faith of Christ—that is, for Orthodoxy. Therefore we are completely justified in canonizing them as saints. This has already been confirmed by the Church of Cyprus and the Greek Church. Other Orthodox Churches also support us. The penultimate sentence there is ambiguous: it could be read as that the Church of Cyprus and Greek Church have already canonised Hus and Prague as saints, or it could merely be a formal expression of support for the idea to canonise them as saints. This seems to be the core of the misunderstanding that Hus and Prague are already saints in those Orthodox Churches (which until now I also thought), but the interviewer's question indicates otherwise. (Incidentally, the archbishop saying that Hus and Prague died for "Orthodoxy" is his personal interpretation; some Protestant theologians may say they died for "proto-Protestantism", see below).
Second, I did find that there is some historical evidence that the
Utraquists in the 16th century
believed, described and praised them as saints, but they existed when there was no Czech Republic yet, and now that there is the Utraquists no longer exist. They were also a completely different denomination that is usually considered Protestant or "Proto-Protestant".
Category:Hussite martyrs is a child of
Category:15th-century proto-Protestant martyrs, which I find to be quite
WP:SUBJECTIVECAT as well. I think this a good demonstration of how arbitrary and messy thus sainthood stuff can get, especially when we mix it up with nationality rather than by denomination (which is already messy enough).
NLeeuw (
talk) 13:17, 11 April 2024 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was:procedural keep. The nominator is welcome to start a broader discussion on the matter (and I'm happy to help with mass noms if need be).
(non-admin closure)Qwerfjkltalk 20:42, 21 April 2024 (UTC)reply
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talk · he/him) 02:45, 11 April 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Shumang Kumhei
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Nominator's rationale: Tiny category of just two articles (that are mutually linked).
PepperBeast(talk) 04:24, 3 April 2024 (UTC)reply
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talk · he/him) 02:34, 11 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Merge to parent categories per nom.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 05:54, 11 April 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Meitei script
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Nominator's rationale: Grab-bag of stuff defined by some use of a particular writing system...
WP:TRIVIALCATPepperBeast(talk) 04:30, 3 April 2024 (UTC)reply
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Category:Non-binary people by sexual orientation
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Possibly delete as a trivial intersection.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 06:17, 3 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Support rename, and neutral on delete. But if we do delete we ought to manually merge the pages to the respective parents.
Mason (
talk) 13:39, 3 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete non-defining intersection. (
t ·
c) buidhe 01:30, 10 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Rename or delete? Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (
talk · he/him) 02:20, 11 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment if this is deleted, make sure the articles are in the relevant non-intersection categories, as Mason says.
-sche (
talk) 02:54, 12 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Personally, I support renaming the categories you have proposed, as I think it would make it easier for users and readers. I do not support a delete.
Historyday01 (
talk) 23:04, 13 April 2024 (UTC)reply
There is definitely some linkages, I agree, but as far as I can tell it hasn't made its way into RS yet. Bisexual men & women should be deleted because they are not defining for the individual even if there are specific stereotypes about the intersection of sexuality & gender in those cases. (
t ·
c) buidhe 00:49, 14 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep, neutral on rename. It's a bit confusing at the moment because of the recent asexual/LGBT re-org that is at CfD elsewhere. But assuming
Category:Asexual non-binary people gets returned to be a subcategory of
Category:Asexual people, it is a necessary subcategory due to the parent cat being fully diffused by gender (
Asexual men,
Asexual women,
Asexual non-binary people). Without it, a non-binary person that does not identify as a man or a woman could not be categorized as asexual. Same with
Category:Bisexual people (
Bisexual men,
Bisexual women,
Bisexual non-binary people). The current name order matches the pattern when viewed from the sexual orientation parent category; the proposed order would match the order when viewed from the non-binary parent category, so that seems to me to be a wash.--
Trystan (
talk) 02:36, 14 April 2024 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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