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Nominator's rationale: The category only has 4 members despite being made in 2015, evidence that it's not very popular/most people don't look for it and that it has a significant
WP:OVERLAP with its parent category. I believe that merging is the optimal option to avoid clutter. If not merged, I suggest moving to
Category:Fiction about smartglasses, but I am not sure such a specific category's required.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 23:55, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Support per nom.
Mason (
talk) 18:28, 19 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Palauan people by occupation and century
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Nominator's rationale: Only 1 category in it. upmerge for now. it isn't helpful for navigation with only one category
Mason (
talk) 21:27, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Sin Chaeho
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Nominator's rationale: Per the
recent move discussion, the common name is "Shin Chae-ho". The move to "Sin Chaeho" was done without explanation or discussion and should be reverted.
Grnrchst (
talk) 17:28, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Arab world articles needing infoboxes
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Nominator's rationale: Empty category that doesn't appear to be populated by any specific template.
* Pppery *it has begun... 17:22, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Support per nom.
Mason (
talk) 18:08, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Support per nom.
Mason (
talk) 01:05, 19 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Wikipedians who play Minecraft
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Support per nom.
Mason (
talk) 01:05, 19 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Nominator's rationale:merge, redundant category layer with only two subcategories and per
WP:OCEGRS.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 12:10, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Support per nom.
Mason (
talk) 01:05, 19 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Fictional characters incorrectly presumed dead
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The result of the discussion was:keep. I find the Keep rationale to be quite convincing.
(non-admin closure)Seawolf35T--
C 20:27, 27 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Similar to "fictional resurrected characters", this is not a defining trait of a character. We already have
Category:Fictional undead for people who were irrevocably changed by being dead, but a character may simply have been thought to be dead for years and show up just like normal. This is a story element, not a character trait.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 11:22, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete, it is not trivial for the storylines, but it is trivial to the articles about the characters.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 11:36, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep This IS a defining trait of a character as it massively impacts their development and the development of the show. If you look at characters such as
Den Watts,
Sherlock Holmes and
Kathy Beale, you can see the development of the producers in reviving the characters and the audience's reaction and reception to it. It is not trivial, it is not just a random fact included in the article, it is a big piece of casting, development and sometimes reception information. If you look at Kathy's article you can see that it was influenced by a real life case. If you go to
Cindy Beale's article, you can see how her return after being killed off 25 years later gathered substantial reception. I could go on but my point is that it is not just a trivial mention for many of the articles.
DaniloDaysOfOurLives (
talk) 13:09, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
As stated by Marcocapelle, that is a defining aspect of the storyline or episode - it would potentially go in
Category:Television series about witness protection or
Category:Television episodes about witness protection, since it's not technically a resurrection. It would not be defining for the character in the slightest, though there could be an argument for creating a category for characters who assumed a new identity.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 14:10, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep per Danilo.
AHI-3000 (
talk) 01:42, 20 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep I believe this is fairly defining for a character, and per Danilo's argument to keep. –
Meena • 17:57, 27 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Romans
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Nominator's rationale: merge, overlapping topics, it is all about ancient Romans. Downmerge should be implemented manually, the bot does not automatically move the parenting.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 11:16, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Support per nom.
Mason (
talk) 18:09, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment Byzantine women were also Roman women.
★Trekker (
talk) 18:07, 19 November 2023 (UTC)reply
4th- and 5th-century Byzantine people categories are still part of the ancient Romans tree and thereafter the Byzantine Empire was an empire in its own right.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 06:48, 20 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Not in reality, they always considered themselves Romans and its only because of later Western historiography that the distinction has been forced.
★Trekker (
talk) 12:41, 20 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Ok yeah that is how historiography developed. Self-identification isn't always decisive.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 20:57, 20 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Generally, I defer to self identity but Translatio imperii was also claimed broadly including by the Holy Roman Emperors and Mussolini. "Roman" should be used in ways that readers expect so it aids navigation. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 19:12, 26 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Support (Leaving Redirects) Moving overlapping categories to clearer naming. (Leaving redirects I think would be helpful for HotCat though.) -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 19:12, 26 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Fictional educational institutions
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Nominator's rationale: Appears to be something of a
WP:OVERLAPCAT by the looks of it. There's not really much reason anything that may not be a "school" cannot just go into
Category:Fictional organizations.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 11:11, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Support merger, this category seems totally redundant.
AHI-3000 (
talk) 01:43, 20 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Black people in literature
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Category:Development theory
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Category:Non-Austrian military personnel in Austrian armies
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Nominator's rationale: small category, non-defining category. that's intersecting political regime and type of writing. I think we should rename it (and broaden the scope) or upmerge to People from the Roman Empire and Hymnwriters )
Mason (
talk) 01:37, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Equally fine with deleting.
Mason (
talk) 18:11, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Politicians' deaths due to animal attacks
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Note to closer: There are other concurrent discussions all pertaining to
Category:Politicians by cause of death in which similar or the same arguments are being made.
Nominator's rationale:manually merge back, as a trivial intersection. Some articles are already in a subcategory by type of animal so an automated merge will nor work.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 06:54, 9 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose. It is a cause of death of politicians. How is it trivial if it is one of the reasons a politician dies, which is the nature of the parent
Category:Politicians by cause of death? Makes no sense to me you make this nomination. Sincerely, Thinker78(talk) 06:58, 9 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge per nom. Not every intersection is notable. Unless we believe that the animals knew the occupation of their victims, this should be removed.--
User:Namiba 13:55, 9 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge per nom. Not a notable intersection
Mason (
talk) 14:07, 9 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment. I think the topic of deaths by animal attacks is notable. It is regularly featured in the news worldwide. Let alone when something like that happens to a politician (a rare but otherwise certainly notable event). Also, it is one of the causes of death of politicians. Maybe rare but given that it has several entries and as for the previously stated reason, I think it should be included. Regards, Thinker78(talk) 19:47, 9 November 2023 (UTC)reply
The topic itself is notable, but the intersection with occupation isn't.
Mason (
talk) 20:47, 9 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge as random intersection.
Pichpich (
talk) 19:28, 9 November 2023 (UTC)reply
I would understand your argument if it was like an isolated category but it is a politician cause of death, among other politicians cause of death in the eponymous category. Regards, Thinker78(talk) 22:17, 9 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Politicians don't have to be diffused by any random cause of death, only by deaths that are related to their occupation.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 23:53, 9 November 2023 (UTC)reply
I think that is your opinion not a rule, which I respect but don't agree with, due to the stated reasons above. Although I recognize that based on opinions consensus decisions are reached. I would rather this category be preserved. Regards, Thinker78(talk) 05:32, 10 November 2023 (UTC)reply
It's more than an opinion, it's a very core tenant of categorization.
Wikipedia:DefiningMason (
talk) 05:35, 10 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Per your link, "Not everything a celebrity does after becoming famous warrants categorization". I think dying in a certain way is certainly something that warrants categorization if there are a number of minimum entries. It is one of the most crucial events in a person's life. Thinker78(talk) 22:40, 10 November 2023 (UTC)reply
"Only by deaths that are related to their occupation" I think your comment doesn't apply to [Category:Politicians' deaths due to animal attacks] but rather to
Category:Line of duty deaths, which is a category I did not use. Regards, Thinker78(talk) 22:42, 10 November 2023 (UTC)reply
I think this is notable since sudden deaths of politicians have major consequences. Might be good to merge into accidental deaths of politicians but i don’t think animal attacks fit as accidents
Immanuelle ❤️💚💙
(talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 20:12, 11 November 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Immanuelle There is also a discussion about accidental deaths of politicians (check Politicians killed in duels in the See also). Regards, Thinker78(talk) 00:33, 12 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge per above. As Namiba said above, "Unless we believe that the animals knew the occupation of their victims, this should be removed." I agree that if these were politically-motivated assassinations then the victim's occupation would be relevant, but in these cases the deaths are completely incidental. Perhaps fitting that a pointless intersection gets a pointless procedural unclose, but we can carry on now.
QuietHere (
talk |
contributions) 08:42, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Are you able to close @
QuietHere? I don't know who isn't involved in at least one of Thinker78's category conversations like this.
Mason (
talk) 18:12, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
I don't object closers who were involved in past discussions in which I participated, only in the directly related discussions, as pointed out in my challenge. Thinker78(talk) 23:09, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
What do you expect to happen here? You've not addressed anyone's concerns about the intersection not being defining.
Mason (
talk) 01:12, 19 November 2023 (UTC)reply
I have replied plenty of times, no idea why in the world are you saying this. Can you quote someone's question in this thread that I did not address? Thinker78(talk) 02:10, 20 November 2023 (UTC)reply
As I stated: "[y]ou've not addressed anyone's concerns about the intersection not being defining". People have pointed out the same issue about how this intersection is not defining. I have not seen you make an argument for why the intersection is defining. You've pointed out repeatedly that politicians are important, therefore their deaths are important, but that's not the issue. This issue that folks keep bringing up is that the intersection between the nature of the death and the occupation isn't notable. Why does it matter that animals killed a politician?
Mason (
talk) 01:03, 24 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge per above. The occupation of someone killed by an animal is irrelevant.
Perspicax (
talk) 23:14, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Not irrelevant. Pretty much any death by an animal attack is notable, I would say specially so that of a politician.
The central goal of the category system is to provide navigational links to pages in Wikipedia, in a hierarchy of categories which readers, knowing essential—defining—characteristics of a topic, can browse and quickly find sets of pages on topics that are defined by those characteristics.
If then animal deaths are notable and a topic of concern of people in general, certainly this opens up to the question of animal deaths by occupation. Mail carriers? Police? Soldiers? Politicians? This category helps with the navigation to provide that answer. Regards, Thinker78(talk) 00:27, 24 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:14th-century painting stubs
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Nominator's rationale: The category only has 4 members despite being made in 2015, evidence that it's not very popular/most people don't look for it and that it has a significant
WP:OVERLAP with its parent category. I believe that merging is the optimal option to avoid clutter. If not merged, I suggest moving to
Category:Fiction about smartglasses, but I am not sure such a specific category's required.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 23:55, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Support per nom.
Mason (
talk) 18:28, 19 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Palauan people by occupation and century
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Nominator's rationale: Only 1 category in it. upmerge for now. it isn't helpful for navigation with only one category
Mason (
talk) 21:27, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Sin Chaeho
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Nominator's rationale: Per the
recent move discussion, the common name is "Shin Chae-ho". The move to "Sin Chaeho" was done without explanation or discussion and should be reverted.
Grnrchst (
talk) 17:28, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Arab world articles needing infoboxes
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Nominator's rationale: Empty category that doesn't appear to be populated by any specific template.
* Pppery *it has begun... 17:22, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Support per nom.
Mason (
talk) 18:08, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Support per nom.
Mason (
talk) 01:05, 19 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Wikipedians who play Minecraft
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Support per nom.
Mason (
talk) 01:05, 19 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Nominator's rationale:merge, redundant category layer with only two subcategories and per
WP:OCEGRS.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 12:10, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Support per nom.
Mason (
talk) 01:05, 19 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Fictional characters incorrectly presumed dead
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The result of the discussion was:keep. I find the Keep rationale to be quite convincing.
(non-admin closure)Seawolf35T--
C 20:27, 27 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Similar to "fictional resurrected characters", this is not a defining trait of a character. We already have
Category:Fictional undead for people who were irrevocably changed by being dead, but a character may simply have been thought to be dead for years and show up just like normal. This is a story element, not a character trait.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 11:22, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete, it is not trivial for the storylines, but it is trivial to the articles about the characters.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 11:36, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep This IS a defining trait of a character as it massively impacts their development and the development of the show. If you look at characters such as
Den Watts,
Sherlock Holmes and
Kathy Beale, you can see the development of the producers in reviving the characters and the audience's reaction and reception to it. It is not trivial, it is not just a random fact included in the article, it is a big piece of casting, development and sometimes reception information. If you look at Kathy's article you can see that it was influenced by a real life case. If you go to
Cindy Beale's article, you can see how her return after being killed off 25 years later gathered substantial reception. I could go on but my point is that it is not just a trivial mention for many of the articles.
DaniloDaysOfOurLives (
talk) 13:09, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
As stated by Marcocapelle, that is a defining aspect of the storyline or episode - it would potentially go in
Category:Television series about witness protection or
Category:Television episodes about witness protection, since it's not technically a resurrection. It would not be defining for the character in the slightest, though there could be an argument for creating a category for characters who assumed a new identity.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 14:10, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep per Danilo.
AHI-3000 (
talk) 01:42, 20 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep I believe this is fairly defining for a character, and per Danilo's argument to keep. –
Meena • 17:57, 27 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Romans
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Nominator's rationale: merge, overlapping topics, it is all about ancient Romans. Downmerge should be implemented manually, the bot does not automatically move the parenting.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 11:16, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Support per nom.
Mason (
talk) 18:09, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment Byzantine women were also Roman women.
★Trekker (
talk) 18:07, 19 November 2023 (UTC)reply
4th- and 5th-century Byzantine people categories are still part of the ancient Romans tree and thereafter the Byzantine Empire was an empire in its own right.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 06:48, 20 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Not in reality, they always considered themselves Romans and its only because of later Western historiography that the distinction has been forced.
★Trekker (
talk) 12:41, 20 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Ok yeah that is how historiography developed. Self-identification isn't always decisive.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 20:57, 20 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Generally, I defer to self identity but Translatio imperii was also claimed broadly including by the Holy Roman Emperors and Mussolini. "Roman" should be used in ways that readers expect so it aids navigation. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 19:12, 26 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Support (Leaving Redirects) Moving overlapping categories to clearer naming. (Leaving redirects I think would be helpful for HotCat though.) -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 19:12, 26 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Fictional educational institutions
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Nominator's rationale: Appears to be something of a
WP:OVERLAPCAT by the looks of it. There's not really much reason anything that may not be a "school" cannot just go into
Category:Fictional organizations.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ) 11:11, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Support merger, this category seems totally redundant.
AHI-3000 (
talk) 01:43, 20 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Black people in literature
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Category:Development theory
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Category:Non-Austrian military personnel in Austrian armies
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Nominator's rationale: small category, non-defining category. that's intersecting political regime and type of writing. I think we should rename it (and broaden the scope) or upmerge to People from the Roman Empire and Hymnwriters )
Mason (
talk) 01:37, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Equally fine with deleting.
Mason (
talk) 18:11, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Politicians' deaths due to animal attacks
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Note to closer: There are other concurrent discussions all pertaining to
Category:Politicians by cause of death in which similar or the same arguments are being made.
Nominator's rationale:manually merge back, as a trivial intersection. Some articles are already in a subcategory by type of animal so an automated merge will nor work.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 06:54, 9 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose. It is a cause of death of politicians. How is it trivial if it is one of the reasons a politician dies, which is the nature of the parent
Category:Politicians by cause of death? Makes no sense to me you make this nomination. Sincerely, Thinker78(talk) 06:58, 9 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge per nom. Not every intersection is notable. Unless we believe that the animals knew the occupation of their victims, this should be removed.--
User:Namiba 13:55, 9 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge per nom. Not a notable intersection
Mason (
talk) 14:07, 9 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment. I think the topic of deaths by animal attacks is notable. It is regularly featured in the news worldwide. Let alone when something like that happens to a politician (a rare but otherwise certainly notable event). Also, it is one of the causes of death of politicians. Maybe rare but given that it has several entries and as for the previously stated reason, I think it should be included. Regards, Thinker78(talk) 19:47, 9 November 2023 (UTC)reply
The topic itself is notable, but the intersection with occupation isn't.
Mason (
talk) 20:47, 9 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge as random intersection.
Pichpich (
talk) 19:28, 9 November 2023 (UTC)reply
I would understand your argument if it was like an isolated category but it is a politician cause of death, among other politicians cause of death in the eponymous category. Regards, Thinker78(talk) 22:17, 9 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Politicians don't have to be diffused by any random cause of death, only by deaths that are related to their occupation.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 23:53, 9 November 2023 (UTC)reply
I think that is your opinion not a rule, which I respect but don't agree with, due to the stated reasons above. Although I recognize that based on opinions consensus decisions are reached. I would rather this category be preserved. Regards, Thinker78(talk) 05:32, 10 November 2023 (UTC)reply
It's more than an opinion, it's a very core tenant of categorization.
Wikipedia:DefiningMason (
talk) 05:35, 10 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Per your link, "Not everything a celebrity does after becoming famous warrants categorization". I think dying in a certain way is certainly something that warrants categorization if there are a number of minimum entries. It is one of the most crucial events in a person's life. Thinker78(talk) 22:40, 10 November 2023 (UTC)reply
"Only by deaths that are related to their occupation" I think your comment doesn't apply to [Category:Politicians' deaths due to animal attacks] but rather to
Category:Line of duty deaths, which is a category I did not use. Regards, Thinker78(talk) 22:42, 10 November 2023 (UTC)reply
I think this is notable since sudden deaths of politicians have major consequences. Might be good to merge into accidental deaths of politicians but i don’t think animal attacks fit as accidents
Immanuelle ❤️💚💙
(talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 20:12, 11 November 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Immanuelle There is also a discussion about accidental deaths of politicians (check Politicians killed in duels in the See also). Regards, Thinker78(talk) 00:33, 12 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge per above. As Namiba said above, "Unless we believe that the animals knew the occupation of their victims, this should be removed." I agree that if these were politically-motivated assassinations then the victim's occupation would be relevant, but in these cases the deaths are completely incidental. Perhaps fitting that a pointless intersection gets a pointless procedural unclose, but we can carry on now.
QuietHere (
talk |
contributions) 08:42, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Are you able to close @
QuietHere? I don't know who isn't involved in at least one of Thinker78's category conversations like this.
Mason (
talk) 18:12, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
I don't object closers who were involved in past discussions in which I participated, only in the directly related discussions, as pointed out in my challenge. Thinker78(talk) 23:09, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
What do you expect to happen here? You've not addressed anyone's concerns about the intersection not being defining.
Mason (
talk) 01:12, 19 November 2023 (UTC)reply
I have replied plenty of times, no idea why in the world are you saying this. Can you quote someone's question in this thread that I did not address? Thinker78(talk) 02:10, 20 November 2023 (UTC)reply
As I stated: "[y]ou've not addressed anyone's concerns about the intersection not being defining". People have pointed out the same issue about how this intersection is not defining. I have not seen you make an argument for why the intersection is defining. You've pointed out repeatedly that politicians are important, therefore their deaths are important, but that's not the issue. This issue that folks keep bringing up is that the intersection between the nature of the death and the occupation isn't notable. Why does it matter that animals killed a politician?
Mason (
talk) 01:03, 24 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge per above. The occupation of someone killed by an animal is irrelevant.
Perspicax (
talk) 23:14, 18 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Not irrelevant. Pretty much any death by an animal attack is notable, I would say specially so that of a politician.
The central goal of the category system is to provide navigational links to pages in Wikipedia, in a hierarchy of categories which readers, knowing essential—defining—characteristics of a topic, can browse and quickly find sets of pages on topics that are defined by those characteristics.
If then animal deaths are notable and a topic of concern of people in general, certainly this opens up to the question of animal deaths by occupation. Mail carriers? Police? Soldiers? Politicians? This category helps with the navigation to provide that answer. Regards, Thinker78(talk) 00:27, 24 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:14th-century painting stubs
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