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More specifically, is Shibli Nomani's Sirat an-Nabi (The Life of the Prophet [ Muhammad ]) a reliable source for the life of Muhammad?
I believe the answer is yes. Nomani was the professor at Aligarh Muslim University, and considered a reliable source for Islamic history. He has been referred to as the "leading Muslim historians of the day [1857 - 1914]" by Francis Robinson (head of the Department of History, at Royal Holloway, University of London). (Source: The British Empire and Muslim Identity in South Asia, by Francis Robinson. Transactions of the Royal Historical Society, 6th Ser., Vol. 8. (1998), pp. 281.)
Further his works (including Sirat an-Nabi which is in question here) have been regarded reliable. A review published by Annemarie Schimmel (from Harvard University) regards Sirat an-Nabi as an important biographical work. This review also confirms that Nomani was a professor in Aligarh. Finally the review praises the Murad's work. (Source: Review of Intellectual Modernism of Shibli Numani: An Exposition of His Religious and Political Ideas by Mehr Afroz Murad Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 103, No. 4 (Oct. - Dec., 1983), p. 810)
What do you guys think? Bless sins 00:47, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
See discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Reliable_sources#Nazi_and_Soviet_sources; comments appreciated.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 17:17, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Is the book Muhammad at Medina written by William Montgomery Watt and published by the Oxford University Press a reliable source?
W. M. Watt was the Professor of Arabic and Islamic Studies at the University of Edinburgh. Also, the Oxford University Press is the largest university press in the world.
Since WP:RS says "the most reliable publications are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses", shouldn't publications of the Oxford University Press be considered reliable sources?
A user has said that the above mentioned publication (Muhammad at Medina) makes claims "contradicted by sources" and "not born out by the sources". The user also says that the book is "Islamophilic" and "vilifies the Banu Qurayza".
Thus the question is: should William Montgomery Watt's Muhammad at Medina published by the Oxford University Press be considered a reliable source? Bless sins 06:29, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
(undent) One factor to consider is exactly what the book is being used as a source for. For example, it sounds like the book would be a reliable source for facts: X did Y on date Z. On the other hand, judgmental passages that would have escaped close editorial scrutiny in 1956 probably wouldn't be published by the Oxford Press in 2007, and so it would be best if they were used only where an article is talking about English views of Arabs in the mid 1950s. 01:38, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Would we consider www.frontpagemag.com to be a reliable source? I'm not particularly familiar with it, but it seems to be an extremely partisan outlet. It seems to be more of a group blog than anything else - I can't find any indication that it has "an established structure for fact-checking and editorial oversight", as WP:RS#What is a reliable source? puts it. If it doesn't engage in fact checking or have editorial oversight I presume it would have to be classed as what WP:V calls a "questionable source". -- ChrisO 00:02, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Then what about this: "Symposium: The Koran and Anti-Semitism", FrontPageMag.com. In this case the FrontPage is not adding any bias, but simply reporting the discussion as a primary source. Although FrontPage is not a reliable source on the Qur'an, Professor Khaleel Mohammed certainly is. The question here is whether this symposium took place and FrontPage is accurately reporting Professor Mohammed's words. Please note that WP:BLP would apply since we are attributing this to living persons. Bless sins 15:52, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
(out dent) On the simplest possible grounds FrontPageMag.com fails the WP:RS test. It's self-published & it's making an exceptional claim while being an "extremist" source (extremist in WP:RS's terms). Short answer, don't use it as a reliable source. Longer answer find someone else who has published about this symposium, if it was important someone else will have written something somewhere. If you can find a reliable source talking about it in the same way frontpagemag.com does then a sentence giving frontpage's info might be okay-- Cailil talk 13:01, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
When you look up the newspaper artdaily.com in wikipedia there is a notice that says that the articke might be taken down because it is missing reliable or verifiable sources. Artdaily.com has been reviewd by Britannica.com and a series of other prestigious sources. How do I implement them in the wikipedia article so that the verifiable source message disappears?
Episodes can be used as reliable sources, right? I mean if I editing an article on a tv show and I need to cite something in the article, I can use an episode from that show as a references, correct? If I need to cite information about the character, or something that happens on the show, an episode would be considered a reliable source? I mean, it's not easily changed as per a website. El Greco ( talk · contribs) 22:28, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
This one brings on many issues. But is IAFD.com a reliable source? Also, edits done by this Griffievjr "contributions" appear to lack reliable sourcing. I would like to think that a website that requires me to be 18 years or older is not a reliable source... nevertheless perhaps my logic is wrong on this one? I figured I should ask before I go proding and contesting every source this user:Griffievjr has added. Any suggestions? -- CyclePat 08:14, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
An article on the Hexayurt was deleted on the basis of WP:RS in spite of having having sources including the New York Times ("mainstream newspapers" are listed among the "most reliable publications" in WP:RS) and the book Design Like You Give A Damn by Cameron Sinclair.
Have I missed something? Thanks. -- Chriswaterguy talk 06:30, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Despite several long arguments at RS talk, we were unable to reach a consensus on whether newspapers, in general, are reliable (and include this in main policy). My rule of thumb is that modern newspapers are reliable unless contradicted by more reliable (ex. academic) sources. Of course in controversial cases attribution is useful, and old newspapers are similar in unreliability and bias to 1911EB.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 17:12, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Is there a general policy as to whether or not think tanks should be referenced as sources? I ask because of the following [1] being sourced on the LYNX Rapid Transit Services article. In my opinion it should not be used as it is from a conservative think tank, and I feel the same standard should apply to liberal think tanks. Thoughts? Patriarca12 14:17, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Hello all,
I would like to request your august input on the reliability of the following sources:
http://www.fathermag.com and
http://mensnewsdaily.com for WP articles. On the
Fathers' rights movement talkpage, and in particular
[3] we have one editor
Rogerfgay who appears to be able to post his own articles (in response to requests for sourcing, see above on the talkpage) to mensnewsdaily.com. There is also another editor who is requesting input about an article written by
Rogerfgay and cited to
http://www.fathermag.com. Input on the acceptability of articles on these websites (including comments on editorial oversight etc) would wonderful before I respond anymore to any of this.--
Slp1 01:22, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
While I am in the questioning mood and while you are at it, how about
Glennsacks, the website of a prominent father's rights activist? The particular article in question
[4] is being used as a source as for the claims of opponents of the fathers' rights movement, (NOW)
[5] which seems to be in contradiction of "it does not involve claims about third parties;" though the article has also apparently been published by the the Houston Chronicle, so that may well make it a Reliable Source. Thoughts, please.--
Slp1 02:35, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Sorry for finding this late, I've been very busy. Before I go further I must declare that I was very involved with Mr. Usher and his situation. I do agree with Michael H 34 and Slp1 that Roger Gay has taken a different approach and a very considered one to wikipedia, he has also complied perfectly with WP:COI. However, the issue is not the user but the sources: mensnewsdaily.com is still not a reliable source - its self-published, its partisan (now described in WP:RS's terminology as "extremist" which is I think an unhelpful term), and there seems to be no editorial oversight. (None of these issues are a reflection on Mr. Gay's work just the structure of that site.) The same can be said for www.fathermag.com.
On the matter of Glenn Sacks - I tend to consider his website okay as a primary source. That is to say, it should be used with care (ie for descriptive purposes only) because although notable it's still a self-published "opinion" piece. Again even if published in a newspaper an opinion piece is still only Glenn Sacks opinion and if used in the article it must be noted that it is an opinion held by Mr. Sacks. In this case (due to the claims about third parties) I would err on the side of caution. If Sack's points about NOW can be backed-up by another published reliable source then they should be mentioned, other wise they border on an "exceptional claim."
To address Michale H 34's point that "Roger Gay and David Usher were acknowledged for their contributions to Stephen Baskerville's new book, Taken Into Custody". I don't doubt the importance of Messrs. Gay & Usher within the ACFC, and I think it is unfortunate that so few scholarly works from this perspective are published; however publishing on pages like mensnewsdaily.com fails WP's test for reliability (see WP:RS#Scholarship) - if they have anything in a journal or other scholarly source it would be eminently acceptable as a source-- Cailil talk 13:59, 20 October 2007 (UTC) NOTICE I have no conflict of interest. Rogerfgay 16:15, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for communicating your ruling concerning MensNewsDaily. Does the same apply for Fathermag.Com? I am surprised about the ruling concerning Glenn Sacks's published article. As a "prominent leader" of the Fathers' Rights Movement, I suggest that Mr. Sacks speaks for more than just himself, unless he is publicly contradicted by other "prominent leaders." However, I will remove this citation. I will restore it only if the Reliable Sources board indicates that this source is acceptable or if I find an additional source.
Michael H 34 02:00, 22 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34
I have a query about the validity of self-published articles on personal websites on Roman historical personages. I found and added two articles which I considered well-written as external links to an article on Scipio Africanus. These articles have now been challenged as sources or as external links, (after several months's existence within the Wikipedia article) as contrary to Wikipedia policy. After looking at several pages (not only the one cited by the editor concerned), I would agree that the articles are self-published. However, the policy does not state that self-published articles are completely unacceptable.
I was under the impression that external links were to be given for those wanting to learn more online about the subject of an article. [8]. The guide says "The section "Further reading" may include both online material and material not available online. If all recommended material is online, the section may be titled "External links". (This article also suggests that if the online link is a source, that it be listed under that alone and not as Further Reading or External Links).
The websites I listed are well-written, cite the best-known and most well-regarded scholarly literature (even if they don't provide inline citations and footnotes for each fact). Those interested can go on to the scholarly literature, provided that they have access to good libraries. (I don't). In those aspects, they fulfill the criteria listed for "Citing sources - Further Reading"
An editor apparently feels otherwise. If online sources are not acceptable or are acceptable only in limited circumstances (as in websites of academic classical studies organizations), could this be clarified on the relevant pages? For example,
Can we and should we cite them as online sources? If the author is not an academic but a person interested in that subject writing an essay based on his or her own reading, is that a valid external link? (For that matter, we do link internally to other Wikipedia articles which may have one contributor or many thousands of contributors).
If we obtain offline (printed) sources for the same facts, should we move the online sources to external links or remove them altogether? Should we integrate all information from a carefully written online website into an article without crediting said author of self-published article, and adding in the works cited as our primary sources without reading said sources? (This smacks of copyright violation to me, and it astonished me when the suggestion was made. I hope I didn't misunderstand something).
wikibiohistory 17:22, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Is the Social Science Research Network at http://ssrn.com/ a reliable source? It looks like self-published papers posted for discussion, but some papers are published. There doesn't seem to be any peer-review before posting on SSRN. -- Foggy Morning 17:20, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Are emails posted on publicly accessbile email lists reliable sources for the comments of the writers? IIRC we do not consider Usenet postings to be reliable because of the ease of spoofing addresses. This is probably less of a concern with established email lists. The issue came up in regard to Essjay controversy, and it was pointed out that our article on Citizendium makes extensive use of email postings as sources. Obviously, even if reliable emails would be considered primary sources and would have to be treated with the usual caution. Thoughts? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:28, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
There is an effort to classify Scott Thomas Beauchamp controversy with various "hoax" categories. Because this is effectively WP:BLP, we clearly need to be careful. So far, the only source put forward on the matter is the leaked Army investigation into the matter that pretty much states that Beauchamp made it all up. While I have no reason to doubt the report, I'm concerned that the report of the investigation doesn't meet the definition of independent since, IMHO, the Army is an involved party. Any input would be appreciated. Ronnotel 21:04, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
We've got a discussion going on over on the Steam page. One user referenced two forum threads ( ; sources 1, 2) as a way of backing up the statement "Free Weekends are criticized by existing players for flooding a game’s servers with newbies, and allowing cheaters free reign." I reverted the edit on the grounds of WP:RSEX, but the editor brought up a question of how we should cite public opinion. I'm not really sure how to proceed from here, as I can understand his viewpoint. The conversation is here; what do you guys think? Is quoting the forum acceptable, or does RSEX prevail? — HelloAnnyong [ t · c ] 20:34, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
The subject I'm concerned with is an American Spectator op-ed (originally published in the Jerusalem Post) that is to be cited for the criticism made therein. Its claims aren't taken to be the truth of the matter, only proof that this criticism has been made. The article is not freely accessible at the American Spectator or JPost websites, but I have found it posted at the [www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/939558/posts Free Republic]. The question is simply whether linking directly to this post of the article should be considered unreliable. Thanks. JrFace 00:39, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm using google to find book sources for articles, but what happens is that the only ones I'm really able to access are the ones in the public domain, which means that they are frequently 100 years old, or older. Would they still be considered reliable sources? Is there some kind of guideline on how old a source can be? I've looked through and haven't really found anything. Hires an editor 01:33, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Could I please get a second opinion on ITFacts.biz. I know nothing of the site...Thanks! E_dog95' Hi ' 03:00, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Is antiwar.com a reliable source for the purposes of ascertaining antiwar opinions and criticism of groups/people from an antiwar perspective which could be considered "hawks?" I ask because a dispute exists at Foundation for Defense of Democracies over the use of antiwar.com criticisms of the group in question, even if clearly labeled as from antiwar.com. Ngchen 22:23, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
User Ronz is concerned that sources used to support background for the superfruit article are without substance or present biased points of view. S/he has listed them on the talk page, and the history shows our slight disagreement. Your assistance is appreciated. -- Paul144 02:08, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
I am curious of other editor opinions whether Western Goals Foundation is a WP:RS reliable source? SaltyBoatr 00:44, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to call into question validity the source when it comes to sourcing bands genres. The site lists Green Day and The Offspring as alternative pop and post-grunge. [13], it lists blink-182 and Korn as post grunge [14], Rancid as alternative pop [15]. I and others have spoken out against as a bad source of genre information. [16] I am seeing this site used for multiple band pages in the genre section of the infobox, can we get an official ruling, or open a wider discussion on whether this source is reliable? Hoponpop69 01:41, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
What is the consensus on using this as a primary (factual, rather than opinion) source? It doesn't seem very reliable at all to me, but I wanted to get other opinions. -- Loonymonkey 22:44, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
I need a reality check before I challenge something. Is radicalreference.info a reliable source? It is a page where people can write in questions and get answers... essentially an information forum. this is their "about us" page. Blueboar 00:10, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Requesting comment on the reliability of a book by the French historian Laurent Dailliez. I have another editor who is including information from Dailliez's book at Franco-Mongol alliance, but I have checked the book (Les Templiers) myself and:
I've brought up the issue at the article talkpage, but so far the only two people participating are myself, and the individual who added the information (who has been adding a great deal of other info from questionable sources or primary sources from the medieval period), so we have a stalemate. I would appreciate further opinions about this and other questionable sources, at Talk:Franco-Mongol alliance#Concerns about Dailliez. Thanks. -- El on ka 23:45, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
I have been unable to determine whether Human Nature Review meets the reliable source criteria. It is not listed in Index Medicus and it's web site does not list any editors.
The particulars are whether this is a reliable source for Capture bonding:
Thanks. Publicola 07:36, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
There's no sign that this periodical employs academic peer review, so it needs to be handled with care. If an author publishing publishing in this journal has credentials and a track record of work in the field that they're publishing on, then I think the article could potentially be used as a source. But in the case of Keith Henson and the Wikipedia article Capture bonding, the situation is different--since Henson doesn't seem to have any credentials in psychology or a related field, I don't think his articles on Human Nature Review can be used as the main sources for Capture bonding--in fact, I don't think his articles should be used as sources at all. --Akhilleus ( talk) 04:22, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
I would appreciate if several people could review Talk:Blackwater Worldwide, and specifically Talk:Blackwater Worldwide#Logo. There, Haizum ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) argues that the New York Times article, " Blackwater Softens Its Logo From Macho to Corporate" is a biased and individualy a possibly unacceptable source for information on Blackwater USA changing it's logo recently. He is quite strident on our dissecting and questioning the reporting of the New York Times, and implied that we illustrate where "facts" may be in question from the NYT report. I contend that us doing that would violate WP:OR. If you care to reply, would you mind reviewing Talk:Blackwater Worldwide#Logo and replying there? I feel it is beginning to go in circles, and I find it bizarre that anyone could insist that the New York Times is not an acceptable source for something so trivial as a logo change of a corporation. • Lawrence Cohen 15:41, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
An RfC on the article talk page on this matter has been initiated. • Lawrence Cohen 22:12, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
We're having a discussion on Talk:Steam_(content_delivery)#Steam_Review_.28and_other_references.29 as to whether or not steamreview.org is a reliable source. My argument is twofold: one, it's essentially a blog, so as per WP:SPS, it should not be used as a source; and two, one of the editors on that page has a link to it on his user page, so that seems to be a COI. The counter-argument is that the editor said that until he founded the site, "nobody else was covering Steam beyond the press releases." We'd really appreciate if someone could make a ruling on this. Thanks! — HelloAnnyong [ t · c ] 18:13, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
I come here because of Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#User:Cumbrowski. Admin User:Durova suggested that this noticeboard is more appropriate in this case than the COIN. I request a review of the following sources regarding their reliability for the subjects where they are used as reference.
I also would like to mention that I am a major contribiutor to the content of the articles to affiliate marketing and ASCII art.
Thank you very much for your time and consideration. Cheers! -- roy<sac> Talk! .oOo. 19:30, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
[19] it looks like a fansite to me. Hoponpop69 00:37, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
This site is in no way reliable- I would like people's comments on its template for deletion here. Thanks Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 09:12, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
By it's nature, the article Masonic conspiracy theories is about all the various unsubstatiated claims and theories that involve Freemasonry. In order to maintain a NPOV, the editors of that article have agreed upon certain conventions... we don't discuss the "truth" or "untruth" of the theories, or comment upon them in any way; and we must have verification that the theory actually exists. To substantiate the latter requirement, we cite sources in a particular way... not as support that the individual conspiracy theories listed in the article are factual or "true"... but purely as verification that the theory exists. Recently, however, this has raised an issue (and caused a brief edit war), as many of these theories are only discussed on fringe websites, blogs and POV rant pages. Such sites are not usually considered reliable sources under WP:RS. So... The question is: Can a site that would be normally be considered unreliable be cited purely as verification of existance? Can unreliable sources be used in a limited context such as this? Please comment at the RfC at Talk:Masonic conspiracy theories. Blueboar 15:00, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Is this peer reviewed journal an unreliable source as claimed here by user Orangemarlin and unsuitable to cite on Wikipedia articles. Or is it a matter of his brand of POV?. Jagra 00:14, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
About a month ago I posted a question here about the reliability of FrontPage Magazine as a source for news. I am very grateful for the response that query got, but now I have another question about this source's reliability. At Council on American-Islamic Relations I am currently having a disagreement with another editor concerning the use of (what I deem to be) a news article from FrontPage Magazine in the "Criticism" section and another news article from FrontPage Magazine in a general content section--see here. Here are the two sources in question:
Is the first article an appropriate one to use in order to source criticism? I personally cannot find anything directly critical about it since it reads like a news article and not an opinion piece at all. I'm not suggesting that FrongPage Magazine isn't itself critical of CAIR, but I think that is a separate issue. It is claimed that the second source above is reliable in its reference to the Saudi Gazette, even if the FrontPage Magazine itself is not reliable for news. Here is the text regarding the Saudi Gazette (though there is no quote from the Gazette only paraphrase), as found in FrontPage Magazine:
Is FrontPage Magazine reliable in either of these contexts? Is it reliable at all, in any context? There is a third reference that I originally also called a news piece that in the end adds a one liner that seems to be "critical," even though the rest of the article is simply their version of "news." Any advice here would be appreciated. Thanks. PelleSmith 19:55, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Question: Can someone comment on the specific links I provided in terms of whether or not they would be reliable for criticism? I clearly think these two are examples of "news" and not critical opinion--but another editor claims otherwise. I'm being told by this editor that the above discussion is irrelevant to the dispute we're having. Thanks. PelleSmith 02:04, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
I haven't looked at exactly how you're trying to use the material, but don't really see any problem using the cites, except that you may be able to improve on them by chasing the chain of custody back further. The first cite says "Former CAIR civil rights coordinator Randall Todd 'Ismail' Royer faces federal charges that he and others 'conspired to provide material support to Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda organization and to his Taliban protectors in Afghanistan,' according to the Washington Post". Well, the WP does report that about him. What the Center for Security Policy adds is that he was the/a "Former CAIR civil rights coordinator". Can you confirm this from other sources, and what does it mean? If he held an important position in CAIR while performing the actions for which he was indicted, objecting to mentioning that CSP made the connection, published in FPM, is obtunded IDONTLIKEITism. And Frank Gaffney's assertion that the Saudi Gazette said that WAMY gave $1.04m to CAIR for an American advertising campaign is citeable as well, though it is again unlikely that you will have to rely solely on FPM for this information. Andyvphil 23:16, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
NOTE: I'm moving this text here because this argument is already one that Merzbow and I are having on the entry talk page. It is clearly informative but I hope that we can distinguish the commentary of third parties from our own hopeless argument. Cheers. PelleSmith 13:25, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
I notice that about eighty six hundred times
[21], that the source
www.constitution.org is used as a reference in Wikipedia. I am curious about the opinion of other editors about whether this source meets the reliable source policy. While at first glance the website appears to be scholarly and impressive, when you look deeper it appears largely anonymous and without reliable publication process. Also, there are indications that lead me to guess it is a blog of
user Jon Roland and to some extent this also may be a policy question of
WP:COI. What is the consensus opinion of editors on the question of the reliability of this source?
SaltyBoatr 15:21, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
I notice that this article [26], just created by Jon Roland makes use of reference links to his self published website. See also [27] for a discussion of the book publisher. SaltyBoatr 22:53, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I proposed the following clarification on Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability:
I submit that if a source cited is itself reliable and verifiable it should not be necessary for an editor who happens to also be the webmaster to remove a link to the site he administers.
Jon Roland 15:55, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Since this seems to be mainly a debate between SaltyBoatr and myself, and he as chosen to "go anonymous" for "security" reasons, I feel at a disadvantage since I am using my real name and rely for security on my guns and the aid of friends. Since he seems so fond of quoting Mark Pitcavage, and his writing style is similar to Mark's, I can't help become suspicious that he is Mark Pitcavage, and if so, given the fact that Mark is professionally employed to work against those his sponsors find it convenient to oppose, I think it appropriate that SaltyBoatr disclose his true identity to at least those on this forum and who disclose their email addresses, Mine is jon.roland@constitution.org. Jon Roland 18:30, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
On the topic of Wikipedia:Convenience_links I would appreciate comment on whether it is material to present them with a phrase like "may be viewed at <link>" or surround the title of the work with the link, so long as all the publication information for the print edition is included in the cite. I prefer the latter, if only because it saves words and space, which can be a problem with long cites. Jon Roland 19:00, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
With all this discussion about www.constitution.org and all the links to it made by many editors, I wonder if it is not time to create an article on the Constitution Society and its website. I am forbidden from doing so, but if some of you joined together in creating one, we could move this discussion to Talk:Constitution_Society 75.44.30.166 22:27, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
I am curious as to how Saltyboatr came up with the count of "600+" for cites to constitution.org. I did a wikipedia search on " http://www.constitution.org", using the search field on the left panel, which seems to find the links to it, and get a count of 7509. Searching on just "constitution.org" yields 9543 hhits, which seems to be finding the domain name in the body text of articles. Since I don't recall inserting more than about 100, that seems to be some kind of peer review and vote of notability for the site, and by extension, the Constitution Society. Jon Roland 18:23, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
http://www.jfjfp.org/ It this a reliable source? I say it is not because there is nothing academic or scholarly about the website, but I am posting here for a community consensus on this issue. Yahel Guhan 02:08, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
I have tried to correct Engelberts biography several times, and it still has false information. Engelbert is NOT Anglo-Indian, his Mother was NOT Anglo-Indian, she was British. Engelbert was born in India of "British" parents. This information is absolutely wrong. I have been Engelberts Fan Club president for 34 years, and know that it is a FACT that he and his mother are BRITISH, not Anglo-Indian. Please correct this obsurd information msacker
This may be a FAQ, so apologies in advance. Would an email from an obviously expert source be regarded as RS, if posted verbatim in a footnote or on talk page? -- Dweller 10:33, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Is it proper to use a newspaper opinion column [35] as a reliable source in an article about a living person? [36] Arthur 23:35, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
That's the way I see it too. In other words, if it's non-libelous info, use it if you can't find a better source. If it's potentially libelous, find a better source. Arthur 23:45, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
http://www.lyndonlarouchewatch.org/ is a website self-published by LaRouche critic Dennis King. King, who edits Wikipedia as User:Dking, and other editors wish to use this site as a source on LaRouche related articles. Could some uninvolved parties take a look at this and give an opinion? -- Marvin Diode 20:59, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but did Marvin Diode claim that the Kenneth Kronberg article is a WP:COATRACK article created to launder Dennis King's views on LaRouche into Wikipedia? It seems to me that that is an absurd claim. Kenneth Kronberg's death was clearly newsworthy--covered in the Washington Post and elsewhere, not just the Falls Church paper of a "disaffected member"--and the excerpts from the morning briefing of April 11 formed part of the context in which to view that story.
It seems obvious that if the quotes offered from that morning briefing, or the full version offered on King's website, were inaccurate or invented, the LaRouche organization in its coverage of this matter, internally and externally, would have made that charge publicly and vociferously. As far as I know, all that was said was that the documents on King's website had been "stolen," not that they were inventions or misquotes. (This charge was made in a public press release that appeared on the LaRouche PAC website.) In fact, at the time it seemed to me that the charge that the documents had been stolen was an implicit admission by the LaRouche organization that they were accurately quoted.
The piece on the LaRouche PAC website to which I refer was posted May 5, less than a month after Ken Kronberg's death, and reads in relevant part:
"May 5--Pro-fascist New York investment banker John Train's long time hod-carrier, Dennis King, has launched a scurrilous slander campaign against Lyndon LaRouche. King has posted a series of smears on his website and other internet blogs concerning the recent death of long-time leading LaRouche collaborator Kenneth L. Kronberg. These slanders, along with King's posting of stolen documents, are a distasteful exploitation of a personal tragedy in pursuit of Train's political vendetta against LaRouche and a disrespectful disregard for the memory of Kronberg." [52] -- Hexham 05:54, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Seems to be a reliable source for a memo whose contents and existence have been corroborated in other publications. Use in the article seems fine, the memo is not analyzed, just summarized. Only suggestion I have is that perhaps King could modify the web page containing the memo [53] to remove the title at the top, which contains analysis and could be prejudicial. - Merzbow 06:30, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Mr. Benton's paper is a recognized local newspaper which appears on a regular schedule, has advertisers and a stable circulation and covers the subject matters that a normal local paper would cover. That its owner and editor are one and the same person is irrelevant--in past generations the owners and editors of most small newspapers were one and the same person (as Jimmy Stewart in "Who Shot Liberty Valance?"). Or are we to adopt a policy that articles published by someone else in Mr. Benton's paper can be cited because they are not self-published but anything by the editor cannot be cited? Relato refero's argument seems pretty weak to me.-- Dking 01:57, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
There's a dispute on Michael E. J. Witzel about whether the article should say he's biased against Hindus; an example of the material some editors want included is in this diff. In my opinion, unless material like this is supported by extremely strong sourcing, it's a BLP violation. On the article's talk page, there's a dispute about how strong the sources for this material are: there's two op-ed pieces, a court filing, some isolated quotes in news stories, and some websites of political organizations. Input from uninvolved editors would be welcome. --Akhilleus ( talk) 02:42, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Is it a reliable source? The site is mainly needed for reviews. It is an active site for film reviews, and every new released film receives its own review on this site. Shahid • Talk2me 23:19, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
First of all: I’m bringing this to your attention because of a long time conflict around the article Digital Audio Broadcast. The conflict has made it impossible for me to negotiate the content with the below mentioned user.
On the following adress Digital Audio Broadcasting#Criticisms of DAB, we have the following paragraph:
However, there is debate over what this actually means to end users. Surveys of average listeners in the UK, a territory where the low bitrates are often criticised, has shown a high level of end-user satisfaction with the quality of DAB [2]. In complete contrast to this, however, a different poll about what people would like DAB to offer in future found that 92% of people would like DAB to provide higher audio quality than it does at present [3]. This suggests that those who are content with the audio quality on DAB are unaware that they are being provided with audio quality that is worse than FM.
The source in question is http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/future_radio_poll.php, a poll that is done on a website with 1) visitors with a anti DAB bias, and 2) a context that should be leading because of choice of articles on the same page as the poll were held.
The reference is added by a anonymous user user81.107.206.242 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Special:Contributions&limit=500&target=81.107.206.242). The anonymous user’s edit correspond with a number of edits regulary done by User:Digitalradiotech, the owner of the http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk website. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Digitalradiotech)
If the reference is found unreliable, I would suggest to remove everthing from after "In complete contrast..."
Best regards Ga-david.b 23:45, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Is CIA - The World Factbook a reliable source? On their web-site they say that they use the list of most reliable sources for their info, but they do not publish them because of the "Space considerations preclude a listing of these various sources.", thus some argue that because CIA - The World Factbook do not publish sources it is not trustworthy, moreover in some cases editors argue that it is biased. What do you think? andreyx109 19:18, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
The CIA Factbook also has problems with not saying how they count, e.g., unemployment figures. I remember this was a problem with their numbers for Sweden in the '90s, as the Swedish government unemployment statistic was off by over 4%, which was more than could be explained by how many people were in training programs, etc.
1of3 01:41, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
The CIA-WF is considered reliable enough to cite in dissertations at major academic institutions. If you look at peer-reviewed scholarly articles you will see it cited. That seems good enough for me, at least for these purposes. Epthorn 19:11, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I come here with a question. The British historian Antony Beevor, is cited several times in the " Soviet war crimes" article, would he be considered a reliable source? He has been criticized over the years for his bias approach towards the Red Army, as he depicts them as "Asiatic hordes". Anyways, I would just like some clarification. Thanks, Bogdan що? 04:46, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry to crosspost (this is also on Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard), but I just gotta drop this bomb on the reliable sources crew. The article on jenkem needs urgent attention with respect to reliable sources. Wikipedia stands a strong chance of being dumped on by the traditional media again, some of whom seem to be using this article as a reliable source. Please excuse the puns - I'd like to get more eyes looking at this issue, since we are being cited as a source for this (probable) hoax. Cheers, Skinwalker 03:01, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
talk:MS (disambiguation) will explain that we are having trouble with WP:OR and WP:V. Some of the articles referenced or listed in the disambiguation page lack proper referencing to show a clear link with the term MS. I believe WP:OR applies to disambiguation pages just as much as regular articles, specially when the the satelite articles are not properly referenced. Others believe we should be more lenient of WP:V. Essentially do we delete the "unsourced information"? In short, the disambiguation list is sourced from the main articles, nevertheless those same articles have unreliable, totally missing, unsourced, etc.. information. I am moving with my right to remove the articles from the disambigation per WP:OR. Some think we should keep it until we remove the information from the main articles. Note: I have also added, citation required, to the ones that require the information. -- CyclePat 20:43, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
I have given a firm warning to user:Dethme0w on removing a "citation required" and violating WP:OR. The EgyptAir page states its relationship to the the term "MS", however it does not provide sufficient, verifiable information. This information is hence in violation of WP:V and unsourced information. Again, the main article is not properly sourced and there appears to be some sort of dispute in this regard. I have place my warning on the related pages. I will delete this information and then leave it for someone else to take care of... obviously we can't monitor every wikipedian that has an axe to grind and some "unreliable information to provide" or can we? -- CyclePat 21:18, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
I was wondering what people think of Spartacus Schoolnet as a source. I certainly wouldn't use it in areas where there is great controversy - it's certainly not a "gold standard" source - but I've found their work generally quite solid in areas where I'm expert.
I noticed that we didn't have an article on confessed and convicted Soviet spy Allan Nunn May. The Spartacus article on May seems accurate on everything I know about, evenhanded and to-the-point. But I seem to remember them being questioned as a source in the past, I believe because of presumed leftist leanings. Any comments? And if the comments are negative on this source, any suggestions what would be a more acceptable source on May? - Jmabel | Talk 19:46, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Since no one seems to be objecting, I'll go ahead and do this (just a stub for now, but at least it will be a cited stub). - Jmabel | Talk 00:13, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Ok, this is admittedly a strange one. On the SpySheriff article an editor would like to post the following info:
SpySheriff is on a US server made in May 28th, 2005. SpySheriff IP address has been found to be 64.28.183.99 it's been found out that SpySheriff & Spy-Sheriff.com is on that IP address This is in United States, California, Newhall. ISP Cernel INC.
His reasoning based on his talk page is:
If you've seen the history you'll see me giving a link showing the source, that is just one link, other sites as well say that SpySherrif and Spy-sheriff are located on those servers, this is the link I used, I can give more links if needed, as I do belive but just do a google search on the ip then you'll see, I did more research then that.
LINK: http://www.domaintools.com/reverse-ip/?hostname=64.28.183.99
And further he says:
Links: http://www.siteadvisor.com/sites/64.28.183.99/postid?p=512494 McAfee Has not given any rating at all, but the comments say something else, I have not in any way contact with the reviewers.
http://toolbar.netcraft.com/site_report?url=http://www.spysheriff.com Now, netcraft is a service you should trust at that, they know what they're doing.
http://www.domaintools.com/reverse-ip/?hostname=64.28.183.99 Saying that SpySheriff and spy-sheriff are on the server.
Check this ip 64.28.183.99 on http://www.ip2location.com/free.asp http://www.ip-adress.com/ and http://www.geobytes.com/IpLocator.htm
http://www.ipaddresslocation.org/ip-address-location.php?ip=64.28.183.99
Now those are just "Ip locating" software, and 1 link showing to McAfee siteadvisor ratings and Netcraft. So what more do you want?
My question is, are such lookups considered a reliable source? Are they considered original research? Are they even appropriate - can/should wikipedia articles be listed IP ranges for software creators? Arthur 23:35, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Well for the matter, this could be relevant for example that SpySheriff hosts more sites and that we know the location for example. --Kanonkas 17:59, 14 November 2007 (UTC) 2nd, isn't netcraft a reliable source?
Is Wikinews, our sister project, a reliable source? I was under the impression that it does have editorial oversight, and also issues journalist credentials. • Lawrence Cohen 18:35, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
The work of employees of US Federal agencies is normally in the public domain, correct? What about when someone leaks the document?
I uploaded Image:Map of camp delta from "Camp Delta Standard Operating Procedure".jpg. So, does it matter that the Bush Presidency has fought the Freedom of Information Act request for this document? It is still in the public domain?
Cheers! Geo Swan 06:54, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
A discussion about reliable sources for this article can be found here. Additional input would be most welcome.-- The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 01:38, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
In the article primary source, the issue has come up whether three unsigned help pages from university libraries count as reliable sources for the definition of primary source. The three websites are:
It is perhaps relevant that there is extensive writing on this subject in peer-reviewed journals and books which are clearly reliable and cited in the article, so it's not an issue of websites being the only sources on the subject that exist. COGDEN 22:12, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Cogden, you continue to misunderstand the basic concept of NOR. The policy does not ban all research that happens to be original to someone... it just bans original research made by Wikipeida editors. Mentioning Einstein's conclusions about relativity is not considered a NOR violation... because these conclusions are external to Wikipedia. One of our editors did not come up with the concusions, Einstein did. Of course, any interpretation of Einsteins conclusions could well be OR... if one of our editors went beyond what Einstein concluded and stated, for example, that Einstein's theory means that Aliens could not have visited Earth, that would be OR... since Einstein does not discuss this. Blueboar ( talk) 20:29, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm wondering if I can use IMDb as a reference for confirmation of a subject being on the cover a particular. IMDb has a section entitled "Publicity" which basically lists magazines and covers a certain actor or personality has been on. When I used it for the Vanessa Angel, another editor said it shouldn't be used as it's not reliable. I know the trivia & bio sections of IMDb sections cannot be used as references, but does this also pertain to sections with credits (ie publicity or movie/tv appearances)? I can't find anything to verify that she was on the cover of these magazines except for a few websites that aren't really reliable and basically just took their info from Wiki to begin with. I've used that section to find back issues of magazines and from personal experience (I know, like that counts!), it seemed pretty reliable. Short of tracking down the two old magazines myself (Vogue and Cosmo), I'm at a loss as to how to source this info. Pinkadelica ( talk) 03:06, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Currently, the Megan Meier article uses terms like "mother of a friend of Meier's." to describe a woman who may or may not have driven a young teenager to suicide. Obviously, we need a reliable source before we can mention names.
None of the previous sources are sufficient to reliably assert the full name of the woman concerned on the article. However, does the sum total of these add up to something that can be taken as a reliable source? John Nevard ( talk) 08:13, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
An acceptable source was found at Talk:Megan_Meier#Further_source by another editor, which is this. I'll tag this as resolved. • Lawrence Cohen 06:59, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
These two documents claim two opposite facts:
• 1: http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/documents/DRDB_UK_DAB+_policy.pdf • 2: http://www.worlddab.org/upload/uploaddocs/WorldDMBPress%20Release_November.pdf • Wich one is the more reliable source?
Background: the first document, DRDB_UK_DAB+_policy.pdf is used to claim tha the UK is going to switch from DAB to DAB+ (third paragraph in the intro on this link):
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Digital_Audio_Broadcasting&diff=172456581&oldid=172397580#_note-3
best regards, Ga-david.b ( talk) 17:22, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Is it a reliable source? MrMurph101 ( talk) 03:51, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I was reading your entry on William Richard Bradford.
Yes he was the inspiration for a case on CSI Miami, because one of the pictures is the sister of one of the actors in the show. The real sister of the real actor.
The inaccuracy part:
the authorities do NOT BELIEVE that MOST of these girls could be pictures of his victims right before their death. HOW DO I know this? Because I HAVE SPOKEN, at length, on the telephone, with the head of the Los Angeles Cty Sheriff's office, the Detective in charge of this case.
MOST OF THE GIRLS IN THESE PHOTOS are believed to BE ALIVE. Many, many of them have been positively identified since the airing of the CSI show, and the publicity of the poster. The poster itself has been updated recently.
About 1/2 (according to the direct source, the head law enforcement investigator on this case) of the girls have been identified and found alive.
A few are in fact dead and unidentified. Law Enforcement is pursuing continuing interrogations with William Richard Bradford to see if he will give up more information about the people in these photos and help them identify, dead or alive, the unidentified women in these photos.
It is, if you are concerned for accuracy, very important to update these kinds of things often. This is a hot case, and the changes are occurring freqently, and the best place for official sources are the officials doing the leg work.
Patricia member, Cold Cases (we're also trying to ID these girls) ColdCases @yahoo groups. (founded by the man who founded the DOE Network... google DOE Network and see)
I posted this before I joined, it's my first and only post here. I will now read how to do this properly. I have now got a username. If I have put this here in error (as I suspect I might have), please move it. I will 'watch' it and see what is happening. Feel free to instruct me. MrsMagellan ( talk) 22:09, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
While I dont have problem with linking to citizendium per se, alot of links have appeared lately with wordings such as: a much more detailed article at citizendium, more detailed article... etc. While some of those links are usefull Im starting to suspect that the main motivation to adding them has been to generate traffic for their project, if thats indeed the case then its problematic. My suspicion grew even more after investigating a little bit: Just last week Larry Sanger himself made a post at http://blog.citizendium.org/ (scroll down alittle) asking people to deliberatly Google bomb because he felt they were not getting enough exposure by google. This guy in particular: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Cryptographic_hash seems to be adding/reverting to keep the links in place with the wordings I described above.I was gona add a list of articles but his contributions page already does that. Can somebody have a look at this? 201.50.174.173 ( talk) 09:35, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
There has been some discussion on the Talk:Landmark Education page about the inclusion in the article of in item on the Landmark Reformers Group, where the only real source for the existence of this group and their opinions is a blog and an online petition. Jossi has pointed out that these do not qualify as reliable sources for wikipedia purposes. Has anyone got any comments on this? Should the item be removed from the article unless some other source references can be found?
On the Campus Watch article, under the 'support' section, it references someone who supports Campus Watch and the citation comes directly from campus-watch.org/endorsements.php. Is using Campus watch's web site a violation of WP:V/ WP:RS? Also, if Campus watch is considered a reliable source, then is the quote notable enough to include? Thanks. — Christopher Mann McKay talk 00:43, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
A question in a similar vein: Bat Ye'or's biography is currently balancing negative quotes about the quality of her research (which is literally all you can find from academic historians of the issues she writes on) with positive quotes from back-of-the-dust-jacket "blurbs". Interestingly, one of our citations on that article is a book review which grumbles about how a previous review was taken out of context (In the vein of "Good on her for broaching this topic, too bad she's a hack", and you can guess where they terminated the quotation). Am I on solid ground to delete or tag these reviews in the absence of any source other than the dust jacket and non-reliable web sites copying it? < eleland/ talk edits> 21:16, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
First off, forgive me if I query in the wrong area, Wiki-newbie onboard (old fart, too) and fail to use the snazzy Wiki terms that seems to run one around in circles. In order to keep this short, I will omit names, and speak as if a hypothetical scenario.
An investigative journalist writes a book. No major publishers accept the book at that time. The journalist creates a website, and sells his book, in trade paper format. A book publisher reads the book, and then buys it. A few mixed book reviews (pro/con), nothing mentioned in academia land, and now this book is a Reliable Source in the eyes of Wikipedia?
Sign me confused in Seattle Jim ( talk) 14:14, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Gerry, I can relate (understand) the reference to academia. Still, what part of my “hypothetical scenario” makes it a “Reliable Source” in the eyes of Wikipedia? Even with the removal of "academia land" (still playing the old guy card) Jim ( talk) 18:26, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Tkynerd and Blueboar. I read WP:V (see above, run around in circles). I was looking for a more definitive answer, which Blueboar gave. Evidently, if somebody publishes it…it is a ‘Reliable Source’. Or, read WP link this, that or the other thing. Lather, rinse, repeat. LoL..Thanks again, Jim ( talk) 21:50, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
There is a good bit of discussion going on at Mediation Cabal, RFC, and Mediation request regarding using an unreliable web source that reprinted a Saturday Evening Post article. The Saturday Evening Post article is fine as a reference for the material and a proper cite journal tag has been created for it (acceptable for Verifiability). However the dispute is to use the web link to an unreliable web site in the reference (url=). The option of adding "format=reprint" was brought up in the Mediation, but we're entering into a gray area on policy. Please comment. Should this link be included in the reference? Should we link to an unreliable source that reprints a reliable source, making it easier for a reader to verify the information or should we stick with a direct reference to the reliable source, which may be more difficult to verify (purchase, library, or web search)? Morphh (talk) 20:34, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
One editor is claiming that editorials are self published sources. I was under the belief that the newspaper was the publisher not the journalist who wrote the piece. Can someone confirm that editorials are not self-published? -- Neon white ( talk) 16:09, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Does millisecond need to have reference? —Preceding unsigned comment added by CyclePat ( talk • contribs)
I don't know what user:TenOfAllTrades is talking about in terms of warning me for what I'm doing here. I also do not know what he is talking about in term of a warning concerning an idiosyncractic understanding of WP:V and WP:SYN follow a block, which he administered. Surelly someone can answer the above question without bias and with substantiated references to what the community believes? -- CyclePat ( talk) 23:47, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
There is an editor who wants to use http://www.stopanimaltests.com/f-lemasPigs.asp as a source on Stopping power. The editor is claiming not allowing this source is censorship [64]. I feel that an anti-animal testing site is unlikely to be a quality source per WP:VER and WP:RS. Comments? Arthurrh 18:54, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
I would like to ask what should be a simple question - Is Youtube a reliable source? Or, to put it another way, should a youtube video be linked to in an article in mainspace, where it appears as a reference for a particular incident?
In the article MacGregor State High School, it appears that a youtube video is given (along with a citeweb for a local newspaper and a local tvnews program) as the source for the incident. I am wondering whether the youtube video is considererd viable, or verifiable here? Newbyguesses - Talk 23:00, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
This IETF meeting log is being discussed as a WP:RS to SMTP protocol work, and as a reliable source to information about opinions on these.
As i see it the log, while unconventional, is the equivalent to a regular transcript of a meeting. It is published by the IETF as the official meeting log of the 7 nov 2006 meeting.
Now the question is: Can it be used as a reference and is it a reliable source?. -- Kim D. Petersen 13:45, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
There is currently an open RfC on this issue at RfC: Should the following criticism be included?. One of the objections raised in the editors involved in this issue is whether the sources being cited are WP:RS. In this case both sources, Roger Pielke Jr. and Steven McIntyre have met the criteria for being WP:N in their own rights and both have relevant publications in respected journals. The sources in question are articles published on their respective websites (i.e. sites operated by themselves). Under these circumstances WP:SPS seems to allow the use of these as WP:RS sources:
Emphasis is in the original. I would seek outside opinions on this matter. -- GoRight 19:13, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Red_Army
So, user RJD0060 is reverting my edits. I've added a link to a youtube video from a Japanese broadcast news source that recorded the aftermath of the Japanese Red Army's bomb attack on a Mitsubishi Heavy Industries LTD. headquarters building.
I don't know where he thinks this is a "copyright violation". Look at the Kevin Cosgrove article. There is a link to his 911 call on Youtube.
This video gives solid audiovisual evidence that an attack took place on 1974. The video link is a source for the line in the article which reads "The JRA launched a series of 17 bombings on buildings belonging to large corporations, including Mitsui & Co. and Taisei Corp, injuring 20 people. Eight people were killed in the bombing of Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd.'s head office building in Tokyo.". This "fact" previously had ZERO sources to back up its claim that the JRA launched bomb attacks against 17 buildings, INCLUDING the bombing of Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd.'s head office building in Tokyo.
[65] is the link. See the video for yourselves. Parliamentary Funk 00:04, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
In WP:SELFPUB#Self-published and questionable sources in articles about themselves it says to use self-published sources it must be releveant to their notability and must not be unduly self-serving to be able to use in articles.
Daniel Pipes, the founder of Campus Watch, is a journalist, among other occupations. Pipes has written two articles, one glorifying and praising Campus Watch’s intentions, and another refuting a criticism about Campus Watch. One of the articles was a opt-ed opinion article published in the The Jerusalem Post and the other was published in FrontPage Magazine. A user keeps adding these two articles as citations on the Campus Watch article. When I state this is a WP:SELFPUB violation, he says the sources are not self-published because the newspaper and magazine are not published by Pipes. Are these articles self-published sources or are they not considered self-published because Pipes wrote them, but didn't publish them? Thanks. — Christopher Mann McKay talk 17:59, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
More specifically, is Shibli Nomani's Sirat an-Nabi (The Life of the Prophet [ Muhammad ]) a reliable source for the life of Muhammad?
I believe the answer is yes. Nomani was the professor at Aligarh Muslim University, and considered a reliable source for Islamic history. He has been referred to as the "leading Muslim historians of the day [1857 - 1914]" by Francis Robinson (head of the Department of History, at Royal Holloway, University of London). (Source: The British Empire and Muslim Identity in South Asia, by Francis Robinson. Transactions of the Royal Historical Society, 6th Ser., Vol. 8. (1998), pp. 281.)
Further his works (including Sirat an-Nabi which is in question here) have been regarded reliable. A review published by Annemarie Schimmel (from Harvard University) regards Sirat an-Nabi as an important biographical work. This review also confirms that Nomani was a professor in Aligarh. Finally the review praises the Murad's work. (Source: Review of Intellectual Modernism of Shibli Numani: An Exposition of His Religious and Political Ideas by Mehr Afroz Murad Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 103, No. 4 (Oct. - Dec., 1983), p. 810)
What do you guys think? Bless sins 00:47, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
See discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Reliable_sources#Nazi_and_Soviet_sources; comments appreciated.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 17:17, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Is the book Muhammad at Medina written by William Montgomery Watt and published by the Oxford University Press a reliable source?
W. M. Watt was the Professor of Arabic and Islamic Studies at the University of Edinburgh. Also, the Oxford University Press is the largest university press in the world.
Since WP:RS says "the most reliable publications are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses", shouldn't publications of the Oxford University Press be considered reliable sources?
A user has said that the above mentioned publication (Muhammad at Medina) makes claims "contradicted by sources" and "not born out by the sources". The user also says that the book is "Islamophilic" and "vilifies the Banu Qurayza".
Thus the question is: should William Montgomery Watt's Muhammad at Medina published by the Oxford University Press be considered a reliable source? Bless sins 06:29, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
(undent) One factor to consider is exactly what the book is being used as a source for. For example, it sounds like the book would be a reliable source for facts: X did Y on date Z. On the other hand, judgmental passages that would have escaped close editorial scrutiny in 1956 probably wouldn't be published by the Oxford Press in 2007, and so it would be best if they were used only where an article is talking about English views of Arabs in the mid 1950s. 01:38, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Would we consider www.frontpagemag.com to be a reliable source? I'm not particularly familiar with it, but it seems to be an extremely partisan outlet. It seems to be more of a group blog than anything else - I can't find any indication that it has "an established structure for fact-checking and editorial oversight", as WP:RS#What is a reliable source? puts it. If it doesn't engage in fact checking or have editorial oversight I presume it would have to be classed as what WP:V calls a "questionable source". -- ChrisO 00:02, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Then what about this: "Symposium: The Koran and Anti-Semitism", FrontPageMag.com. In this case the FrontPage is not adding any bias, but simply reporting the discussion as a primary source. Although FrontPage is not a reliable source on the Qur'an, Professor Khaleel Mohammed certainly is. The question here is whether this symposium took place and FrontPage is accurately reporting Professor Mohammed's words. Please note that WP:BLP would apply since we are attributing this to living persons. Bless sins 15:52, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
(out dent) On the simplest possible grounds FrontPageMag.com fails the WP:RS test. It's self-published & it's making an exceptional claim while being an "extremist" source (extremist in WP:RS's terms). Short answer, don't use it as a reliable source. Longer answer find someone else who has published about this symposium, if it was important someone else will have written something somewhere. If you can find a reliable source talking about it in the same way frontpagemag.com does then a sentence giving frontpage's info might be okay-- Cailil talk 13:01, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
When you look up the newspaper artdaily.com in wikipedia there is a notice that says that the articke might be taken down because it is missing reliable or verifiable sources. Artdaily.com has been reviewd by Britannica.com and a series of other prestigious sources. How do I implement them in the wikipedia article so that the verifiable source message disappears?
Episodes can be used as reliable sources, right? I mean if I editing an article on a tv show and I need to cite something in the article, I can use an episode from that show as a references, correct? If I need to cite information about the character, or something that happens on the show, an episode would be considered a reliable source? I mean, it's not easily changed as per a website. El Greco ( talk · contribs) 22:28, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
This one brings on many issues. But is IAFD.com a reliable source? Also, edits done by this Griffievjr "contributions" appear to lack reliable sourcing. I would like to think that a website that requires me to be 18 years or older is not a reliable source... nevertheless perhaps my logic is wrong on this one? I figured I should ask before I go proding and contesting every source this user:Griffievjr has added. Any suggestions? -- CyclePat 08:14, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
An article on the Hexayurt was deleted on the basis of WP:RS in spite of having having sources including the New York Times ("mainstream newspapers" are listed among the "most reliable publications" in WP:RS) and the book Design Like You Give A Damn by Cameron Sinclair.
Have I missed something? Thanks. -- Chriswaterguy talk 06:30, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Despite several long arguments at RS talk, we were unable to reach a consensus on whether newspapers, in general, are reliable (and include this in main policy). My rule of thumb is that modern newspapers are reliable unless contradicted by more reliable (ex. academic) sources. Of course in controversial cases attribution is useful, and old newspapers are similar in unreliability and bias to 1911EB.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 17:12, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Is there a general policy as to whether or not think tanks should be referenced as sources? I ask because of the following [1] being sourced on the LYNX Rapid Transit Services article. In my opinion it should not be used as it is from a conservative think tank, and I feel the same standard should apply to liberal think tanks. Thoughts? Patriarca12 14:17, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Hello all,
I would like to request your august input on the reliability of the following sources:
http://www.fathermag.com and
http://mensnewsdaily.com for WP articles. On the
Fathers' rights movement talkpage, and in particular
[3] we have one editor
Rogerfgay who appears to be able to post his own articles (in response to requests for sourcing, see above on the talkpage) to mensnewsdaily.com. There is also another editor who is requesting input about an article written by
Rogerfgay and cited to
http://www.fathermag.com. Input on the acceptability of articles on these websites (including comments on editorial oversight etc) would wonderful before I respond anymore to any of this.--
Slp1 01:22, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
While I am in the questioning mood and while you are at it, how about
Glennsacks, the website of a prominent father's rights activist? The particular article in question
[4] is being used as a source as for the claims of opponents of the fathers' rights movement, (NOW)
[5] which seems to be in contradiction of "it does not involve claims about third parties;" though the article has also apparently been published by the the Houston Chronicle, so that may well make it a Reliable Source. Thoughts, please.--
Slp1 02:35, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Sorry for finding this late, I've been very busy. Before I go further I must declare that I was very involved with Mr. Usher and his situation. I do agree with Michael H 34 and Slp1 that Roger Gay has taken a different approach and a very considered one to wikipedia, he has also complied perfectly with WP:COI. However, the issue is not the user but the sources: mensnewsdaily.com is still not a reliable source - its self-published, its partisan (now described in WP:RS's terminology as "extremist" which is I think an unhelpful term), and there seems to be no editorial oversight. (None of these issues are a reflection on Mr. Gay's work just the structure of that site.) The same can be said for www.fathermag.com.
On the matter of Glenn Sacks - I tend to consider his website okay as a primary source. That is to say, it should be used with care (ie for descriptive purposes only) because although notable it's still a self-published "opinion" piece. Again even if published in a newspaper an opinion piece is still only Glenn Sacks opinion and if used in the article it must be noted that it is an opinion held by Mr. Sacks. In this case (due to the claims about third parties) I would err on the side of caution. If Sack's points about NOW can be backed-up by another published reliable source then they should be mentioned, other wise they border on an "exceptional claim."
To address Michale H 34's point that "Roger Gay and David Usher were acknowledged for their contributions to Stephen Baskerville's new book, Taken Into Custody". I don't doubt the importance of Messrs. Gay & Usher within the ACFC, and I think it is unfortunate that so few scholarly works from this perspective are published; however publishing on pages like mensnewsdaily.com fails WP's test for reliability (see WP:RS#Scholarship) - if they have anything in a journal or other scholarly source it would be eminently acceptable as a source-- Cailil talk 13:59, 20 October 2007 (UTC) NOTICE I have no conflict of interest. Rogerfgay 16:15, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for communicating your ruling concerning MensNewsDaily. Does the same apply for Fathermag.Com? I am surprised about the ruling concerning Glenn Sacks's published article. As a "prominent leader" of the Fathers' Rights Movement, I suggest that Mr. Sacks speaks for more than just himself, unless he is publicly contradicted by other "prominent leaders." However, I will remove this citation. I will restore it only if the Reliable Sources board indicates that this source is acceptable or if I find an additional source.
Michael H 34 02:00, 22 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34
I have a query about the validity of self-published articles on personal websites on Roman historical personages. I found and added two articles which I considered well-written as external links to an article on Scipio Africanus. These articles have now been challenged as sources or as external links, (after several months's existence within the Wikipedia article) as contrary to Wikipedia policy. After looking at several pages (not only the one cited by the editor concerned), I would agree that the articles are self-published. However, the policy does not state that self-published articles are completely unacceptable.
I was under the impression that external links were to be given for those wanting to learn more online about the subject of an article. [8]. The guide says "The section "Further reading" may include both online material and material not available online. If all recommended material is online, the section may be titled "External links". (This article also suggests that if the online link is a source, that it be listed under that alone and not as Further Reading or External Links).
The websites I listed are well-written, cite the best-known and most well-regarded scholarly literature (even if they don't provide inline citations and footnotes for each fact). Those interested can go on to the scholarly literature, provided that they have access to good libraries. (I don't). In those aspects, they fulfill the criteria listed for "Citing sources - Further Reading"
An editor apparently feels otherwise. If online sources are not acceptable or are acceptable only in limited circumstances (as in websites of academic classical studies organizations), could this be clarified on the relevant pages? For example,
Can we and should we cite them as online sources? If the author is not an academic but a person interested in that subject writing an essay based on his or her own reading, is that a valid external link? (For that matter, we do link internally to other Wikipedia articles which may have one contributor or many thousands of contributors).
If we obtain offline (printed) sources for the same facts, should we move the online sources to external links or remove them altogether? Should we integrate all information from a carefully written online website into an article without crediting said author of self-published article, and adding in the works cited as our primary sources without reading said sources? (This smacks of copyright violation to me, and it astonished me when the suggestion was made. I hope I didn't misunderstand something).
wikibiohistory 17:22, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Is the Social Science Research Network at http://ssrn.com/ a reliable source? It looks like self-published papers posted for discussion, but some papers are published. There doesn't seem to be any peer-review before posting on SSRN. -- Foggy Morning 17:20, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Are emails posted on publicly accessbile email lists reliable sources for the comments of the writers? IIRC we do not consider Usenet postings to be reliable because of the ease of spoofing addresses. This is probably less of a concern with established email lists. The issue came up in regard to Essjay controversy, and it was pointed out that our article on Citizendium makes extensive use of email postings as sources. Obviously, even if reliable emails would be considered primary sources and would have to be treated with the usual caution. Thoughts? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:28, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
There is an effort to classify Scott Thomas Beauchamp controversy with various "hoax" categories. Because this is effectively WP:BLP, we clearly need to be careful. So far, the only source put forward on the matter is the leaked Army investigation into the matter that pretty much states that Beauchamp made it all up. While I have no reason to doubt the report, I'm concerned that the report of the investigation doesn't meet the definition of independent since, IMHO, the Army is an involved party. Any input would be appreciated. Ronnotel 21:04, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
We've got a discussion going on over on the Steam page. One user referenced two forum threads ( ; sources 1, 2) as a way of backing up the statement "Free Weekends are criticized by existing players for flooding a game’s servers with newbies, and allowing cheaters free reign." I reverted the edit on the grounds of WP:RSEX, but the editor brought up a question of how we should cite public opinion. I'm not really sure how to proceed from here, as I can understand his viewpoint. The conversation is here; what do you guys think? Is quoting the forum acceptable, or does RSEX prevail? — HelloAnnyong [ t · c ] 20:34, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
The subject I'm concerned with is an American Spectator op-ed (originally published in the Jerusalem Post) that is to be cited for the criticism made therein. Its claims aren't taken to be the truth of the matter, only proof that this criticism has been made. The article is not freely accessible at the American Spectator or JPost websites, but I have found it posted at the [www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/939558/posts Free Republic]. The question is simply whether linking directly to this post of the article should be considered unreliable. Thanks. JrFace 00:39, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm using google to find book sources for articles, but what happens is that the only ones I'm really able to access are the ones in the public domain, which means that they are frequently 100 years old, or older. Would they still be considered reliable sources? Is there some kind of guideline on how old a source can be? I've looked through and haven't really found anything. Hires an editor 01:33, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Could I please get a second opinion on ITFacts.biz. I know nothing of the site...Thanks! E_dog95' Hi ' 03:00, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Is antiwar.com a reliable source for the purposes of ascertaining antiwar opinions and criticism of groups/people from an antiwar perspective which could be considered "hawks?" I ask because a dispute exists at Foundation for Defense of Democracies over the use of antiwar.com criticisms of the group in question, even if clearly labeled as from antiwar.com. Ngchen 22:23, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
User Ronz is concerned that sources used to support background for the superfruit article are without substance or present biased points of view. S/he has listed them on the talk page, and the history shows our slight disagreement. Your assistance is appreciated. -- Paul144 02:08, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
I am curious of other editor opinions whether Western Goals Foundation is a WP:RS reliable source? SaltyBoatr 00:44, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to call into question validity the source when it comes to sourcing bands genres. The site lists Green Day and The Offspring as alternative pop and post-grunge. [13], it lists blink-182 and Korn as post grunge [14], Rancid as alternative pop [15]. I and others have spoken out against as a bad source of genre information. [16] I am seeing this site used for multiple band pages in the genre section of the infobox, can we get an official ruling, or open a wider discussion on whether this source is reliable? Hoponpop69 01:41, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
What is the consensus on using this as a primary (factual, rather than opinion) source? It doesn't seem very reliable at all to me, but I wanted to get other opinions. -- Loonymonkey 22:44, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
I need a reality check before I challenge something. Is radicalreference.info a reliable source? It is a page where people can write in questions and get answers... essentially an information forum. this is their "about us" page. Blueboar 00:10, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Requesting comment on the reliability of a book by the French historian Laurent Dailliez. I have another editor who is including information from Dailliez's book at Franco-Mongol alliance, but I have checked the book (Les Templiers) myself and:
I've brought up the issue at the article talkpage, but so far the only two people participating are myself, and the individual who added the information (who has been adding a great deal of other info from questionable sources or primary sources from the medieval period), so we have a stalemate. I would appreciate further opinions about this and other questionable sources, at Talk:Franco-Mongol alliance#Concerns about Dailliez. Thanks. -- El on ka 23:45, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
I have been unable to determine whether Human Nature Review meets the reliable source criteria. It is not listed in Index Medicus and it's web site does not list any editors.
The particulars are whether this is a reliable source for Capture bonding:
Thanks. Publicola 07:36, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
There's no sign that this periodical employs academic peer review, so it needs to be handled with care. If an author publishing publishing in this journal has credentials and a track record of work in the field that they're publishing on, then I think the article could potentially be used as a source. But in the case of Keith Henson and the Wikipedia article Capture bonding, the situation is different--since Henson doesn't seem to have any credentials in psychology or a related field, I don't think his articles on Human Nature Review can be used as the main sources for Capture bonding--in fact, I don't think his articles should be used as sources at all. --Akhilleus ( talk) 04:22, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
I would appreciate if several people could review Talk:Blackwater Worldwide, and specifically Talk:Blackwater Worldwide#Logo. There, Haizum ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) argues that the New York Times article, " Blackwater Softens Its Logo From Macho to Corporate" is a biased and individualy a possibly unacceptable source for information on Blackwater USA changing it's logo recently. He is quite strident on our dissecting and questioning the reporting of the New York Times, and implied that we illustrate where "facts" may be in question from the NYT report. I contend that us doing that would violate WP:OR. If you care to reply, would you mind reviewing Talk:Blackwater Worldwide#Logo and replying there? I feel it is beginning to go in circles, and I find it bizarre that anyone could insist that the New York Times is not an acceptable source for something so trivial as a logo change of a corporation. • Lawrence Cohen 15:41, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
An RfC on the article talk page on this matter has been initiated. • Lawrence Cohen 22:12, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
We're having a discussion on Talk:Steam_(content_delivery)#Steam_Review_.28and_other_references.29 as to whether or not steamreview.org is a reliable source. My argument is twofold: one, it's essentially a blog, so as per WP:SPS, it should not be used as a source; and two, one of the editors on that page has a link to it on his user page, so that seems to be a COI. The counter-argument is that the editor said that until he founded the site, "nobody else was covering Steam beyond the press releases." We'd really appreciate if someone could make a ruling on this. Thanks! — HelloAnnyong [ t · c ] 18:13, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
I come here because of Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#User:Cumbrowski. Admin User:Durova suggested that this noticeboard is more appropriate in this case than the COIN. I request a review of the following sources regarding their reliability for the subjects where they are used as reference.
I also would like to mention that I am a major contribiutor to the content of the articles to affiliate marketing and ASCII art.
Thank you very much for your time and consideration. Cheers! -- roy<sac> Talk! .oOo. 19:30, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
[19] it looks like a fansite to me. Hoponpop69 00:37, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
This site is in no way reliable- I would like people's comments on its template for deletion here. Thanks Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 09:12, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
By it's nature, the article Masonic conspiracy theories is about all the various unsubstatiated claims and theories that involve Freemasonry. In order to maintain a NPOV, the editors of that article have agreed upon certain conventions... we don't discuss the "truth" or "untruth" of the theories, or comment upon them in any way; and we must have verification that the theory actually exists. To substantiate the latter requirement, we cite sources in a particular way... not as support that the individual conspiracy theories listed in the article are factual or "true"... but purely as verification that the theory exists. Recently, however, this has raised an issue (and caused a brief edit war), as many of these theories are only discussed on fringe websites, blogs and POV rant pages. Such sites are not usually considered reliable sources under WP:RS. So... The question is: Can a site that would be normally be considered unreliable be cited purely as verification of existance? Can unreliable sources be used in a limited context such as this? Please comment at the RfC at Talk:Masonic conspiracy theories. Blueboar 15:00, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Is this peer reviewed journal an unreliable source as claimed here by user Orangemarlin and unsuitable to cite on Wikipedia articles. Or is it a matter of his brand of POV?. Jagra 00:14, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
About a month ago I posted a question here about the reliability of FrontPage Magazine as a source for news. I am very grateful for the response that query got, but now I have another question about this source's reliability. At Council on American-Islamic Relations I am currently having a disagreement with another editor concerning the use of (what I deem to be) a news article from FrontPage Magazine in the "Criticism" section and another news article from FrontPage Magazine in a general content section--see here. Here are the two sources in question:
Is the first article an appropriate one to use in order to source criticism? I personally cannot find anything directly critical about it since it reads like a news article and not an opinion piece at all. I'm not suggesting that FrongPage Magazine isn't itself critical of CAIR, but I think that is a separate issue. It is claimed that the second source above is reliable in its reference to the Saudi Gazette, even if the FrontPage Magazine itself is not reliable for news. Here is the text regarding the Saudi Gazette (though there is no quote from the Gazette only paraphrase), as found in FrontPage Magazine:
Is FrontPage Magazine reliable in either of these contexts? Is it reliable at all, in any context? There is a third reference that I originally also called a news piece that in the end adds a one liner that seems to be "critical," even though the rest of the article is simply their version of "news." Any advice here would be appreciated. Thanks. PelleSmith 19:55, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Question: Can someone comment on the specific links I provided in terms of whether or not they would be reliable for criticism? I clearly think these two are examples of "news" and not critical opinion--but another editor claims otherwise. I'm being told by this editor that the above discussion is irrelevant to the dispute we're having. Thanks. PelleSmith 02:04, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
I haven't looked at exactly how you're trying to use the material, but don't really see any problem using the cites, except that you may be able to improve on them by chasing the chain of custody back further. The first cite says "Former CAIR civil rights coordinator Randall Todd 'Ismail' Royer faces federal charges that he and others 'conspired to provide material support to Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda organization and to his Taliban protectors in Afghanistan,' according to the Washington Post". Well, the WP does report that about him. What the Center for Security Policy adds is that he was the/a "Former CAIR civil rights coordinator". Can you confirm this from other sources, and what does it mean? If he held an important position in CAIR while performing the actions for which he was indicted, objecting to mentioning that CSP made the connection, published in FPM, is obtunded IDONTLIKEITism. And Frank Gaffney's assertion that the Saudi Gazette said that WAMY gave $1.04m to CAIR for an American advertising campaign is citeable as well, though it is again unlikely that you will have to rely solely on FPM for this information. Andyvphil 23:16, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
NOTE: I'm moving this text here because this argument is already one that Merzbow and I are having on the entry talk page. It is clearly informative but I hope that we can distinguish the commentary of third parties from our own hopeless argument. Cheers. PelleSmith 13:25, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
I notice that about eighty six hundred times
[21], that the source
www.constitution.org is used as a reference in Wikipedia. I am curious about the opinion of other editors about whether this source meets the reliable source policy. While at first glance the website appears to be scholarly and impressive, when you look deeper it appears largely anonymous and without reliable publication process. Also, there are indications that lead me to guess it is a blog of
user Jon Roland and to some extent this also may be a policy question of
WP:COI. What is the consensus opinion of editors on the question of the reliability of this source?
SaltyBoatr 15:21, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
I notice that this article [26], just created by Jon Roland makes use of reference links to his self published website. See also [27] for a discussion of the book publisher. SaltyBoatr 22:53, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I proposed the following clarification on Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability:
I submit that if a source cited is itself reliable and verifiable it should not be necessary for an editor who happens to also be the webmaster to remove a link to the site he administers.
Jon Roland 15:55, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Since this seems to be mainly a debate between SaltyBoatr and myself, and he as chosen to "go anonymous" for "security" reasons, I feel at a disadvantage since I am using my real name and rely for security on my guns and the aid of friends. Since he seems so fond of quoting Mark Pitcavage, and his writing style is similar to Mark's, I can't help become suspicious that he is Mark Pitcavage, and if so, given the fact that Mark is professionally employed to work against those his sponsors find it convenient to oppose, I think it appropriate that SaltyBoatr disclose his true identity to at least those on this forum and who disclose their email addresses, Mine is jon.roland@constitution.org. Jon Roland 18:30, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
On the topic of Wikipedia:Convenience_links I would appreciate comment on whether it is material to present them with a phrase like "may be viewed at <link>" or surround the title of the work with the link, so long as all the publication information for the print edition is included in the cite. I prefer the latter, if only because it saves words and space, which can be a problem with long cites. Jon Roland 19:00, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
With all this discussion about www.constitution.org and all the links to it made by many editors, I wonder if it is not time to create an article on the Constitution Society and its website. I am forbidden from doing so, but if some of you joined together in creating one, we could move this discussion to Talk:Constitution_Society 75.44.30.166 22:27, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
I am curious as to how Saltyboatr came up with the count of "600+" for cites to constitution.org. I did a wikipedia search on " http://www.constitution.org", using the search field on the left panel, which seems to find the links to it, and get a count of 7509. Searching on just "constitution.org" yields 9543 hhits, which seems to be finding the domain name in the body text of articles. Since I don't recall inserting more than about 100, that seems to be some kind of peer review and vote of notability for the site, and by extension, the Constitution Society. Jon Roland 18:23, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
http://www.jfjfp.org/ It this a reliable source? I say it is not because there is nothing academic or scholarly about the website, but I am posting here for a community consensus on this issue. Yahel Guhan 02:08, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
I have tried to correct Engelberts biography several times, and it still has false information. Engelbert is NOT Anglo-Indian, his Mother was NOT Anglo-Indian, she was British. Engelbert was born in India of "British" parents. This information is absolutely wrong. I have been Engelberts Fan Club president for 34 years, and know that it is a FACT that he and his mother are BRITISH, not Anglo-Indian. Please correct this obsurd information msacker
This may be a FAQ, so apologies in advance. Would an email from an obviously expert source be regarded as RS, if posted verbatim in a footnote or on talk page? -- Dweller 10:33, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Is it proper to use a newspaper opinion column [35] as a reliable source in an article about a living person? [36] Arthur 23:35, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
That's the way I see it too. In other words, if it's non-libelous info, use it if you can't find a better source. If it's potentially libelous, find a better source. Arthur 23:45, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
http://www.lyndonlarouchewatch.org/ is a website self-published by LaRouche critic Dennis King. King, who edits Wikipedia as User:Dking, and other editors wish to use this site as a source on LaRouche related articles. Could some uninvolved parties take a look at this and give an opinion? -- Marvin Diode 20:59, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but did Marvin Diode claim that the Kenneth Kronberg article is a WP:COATRACK article created to launder Dennis King's views on LaRouche into Wikipedia? It seems to me that that is an absurd claim. Kenneth Kronberg's death was clearly newsworthy--covered in the Washington Post and elsewhere, not just the Falls Church paper of a "disaffected member"--and the excerpts from the morning briefing of April 11 formed part of the context in which to view that story.
It seems obvious that if the quotes offered from that morning briefing, or the full version offered on King's website, were inaccurate or invented, the LaRouche organization in its coverage of this matter, internally and externally, would have made that charge publicly and vociferously. As far as I know, all that was said was that the documents on King's website had been "stolen," not that they were inventions or misquotes. (This charge was made in a public press release that appeared on the LaRouche PAC website.) In fact, at the time it seemed to me that the charge that the documents had been stolen was an implicit admission by the LaRouche organization that they were accurately quoted.
The piece on the LaRouche PAC website to which I refer was posted May 5, less than a month after Ken Kronberg's death, and reads in relevant part:
"May 5--Pro-fascist New York investment banker John Train's long time hod-carrier, Dennis King, has launched a scurrilous slander campaign against Lyndon LaRouche. King has posted a series of smears on his website and other internet blogs concerning the recent death of long-time leading LaRouche collaborator Kenneth L. Kronberg. These slanders, along with King's posting of stolen documents, are a distasteful exploitation of a personal tragedy in pursuit of Train's political vendetta against LaRouche and a disrespectful disregard for the memory of Kronberg." [52] -- Hexham 05:54, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Seems to be a reliable source for a memo whose contents and existence have been corroborated in other publications. Use in the article seems fine, the memo is not analyzed, just summarized. Only suggestion I have is that perhaps King could modify the web page containing the memo [53] to remove the title at the top, which contains analysis and could be prejudicial. - Merzbow 06:30, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Mr. Benton's paper is a recognized local newspaper which appears on a regular schedule, has advertisers and a stable circulation and covers the subject matters that a normal local paper would cover. That its owner and editor are one and the same person is irrelevant--in past generations the owners and editors of most small newspapers were one and the same person (as Jimmy Stewart in "Who Shot Liberty Valance?"). Or are we to adopt a policy that articles published by someone else in Mr. Benton's paper can be cited because they are not self-published but anything by the editor cannot be cited? Relato refero's argument seems pretty weak to me.-- Dking 01:57, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
There's a dispute on Michael E. J. Witzel about whether the article should say he's biased against Hindus; an example of the material some editors want included is in this diff. In my opinion, unless material like this is supported by extremely strong sourcing, it's a BLP violation. On the article's talk page, there's a dispute about how strong the sources for this material are: there's two op-ed pieces, a court filing, some isolated quotes in news stories, and some websites of political organizations. Input from uninvolved editors would be welcome. --Akhilleus ( talk) 02:42, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Is it a reliable source? The site is mainly needed for reviews. It is an active site for film reviews, and every new released film receives its own review on this site. Shahid • Talk2me 23:19, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
First of all: I’m bringing this to your attention because of a long time conflict around the article Digital Audio Broadcast. The conflict has made it impossible for me to negotiate the content with the below mentioned user.
On the following adress Digital Audio Broadcasting#Criticisms of DAB, we have the following paragraph:
However, there is debate over what this actually means to end users. Surveys of average listeners in the UK, a territory where the low bitrates are often criticised, has shown a high level of end-user satisfaction with the quality of DAB [2]. In complete contrast to this, however, a different poll about what people would like DAB to offer in future found that 92% of people would like DAB to provide higher audio quality than it does at present [3]. This suggests that those who are content with the audio quality on DAB are unaware that they are being provided with audio quality that is worse than FM.
The source in question is http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/future_radio_poll.php, a poll that is done on a website with 1) visitors with a anti DAB bias, and 2) a context that should be leading because of choice of articles on the same page as the poll were held.
The reference is added by a anonymous user user81.107.206.242 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Special:Contributions&limit=500&target=81.107.206.242). The anonymous user’s edit correspond with a number of edits regulary done by User:Digitalradiotech, the owner of the http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk website. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Digitalradiotech)
If the reference is found unreliable, I would suggest to remove everthing from after "In complete contrast..."
Best regards Ga-david.b 23:45, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Is CIA - The World Factbook a reliable source? On their web-site they say that they use the list of most reliable sources for their info, but they do not publish them because of the "Space considerations preclude a listing of these various sources.", thus some argue that because CIA - The World Factbook do not publish sources it is not trustworthy, moreover in some cases editors argue that it is biased. What do you think? andreyx109 19:18, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
The CIA Factbook also has problems with not saying how they count, e.g., unemployment figures. I remember this was a problem with their numbers for Sweden in the '90s, as the Swedish government unemployment statistic was off by over 4%, which was more than could be explained by how many people were in training programs, etc.
1of3 01:41, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
The CIA-WF is considered reliable enough to cite in dissertations at major academic institutions. If you look at peer-reviewed scholarly articles you will see it cited. That seems good enough for me, at least for these purposes. Epthorn 19:11, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I come here with a question. The British historian Antony Beevor, is cited several times in the " Soviet war crimes" article, would he be considered a reliable source? He has been criticized over the years for his bias approach towards the Red Army, as he depicts them as "Asiatic hordes". Anyways, I would just like some clarification. Thanks, Bogdan що? 04:46, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry to crosspost (this is also on Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard), but I just gotta drop this bomb on the reliable sources crew. The article on jenkem needs urgent attention with respect to reliable sources. Wikipedia stands a strong chance of being dumped on by the traditional media again, some of whom seem to be using this article as a reliable source. Please excuse the puns - I'd like to get more eyes looking at this issue, since we are being cited as a source for this (probable) hoax. Cheers, Skinwalker 03:01, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
talk:MS (disambiguation) will explain that we are having trouble with WP:OR and WP:V. Some of the articles referenced or listed in the disambiguation page lack proper referencing to show a clear link with the term MS. I believe WP:OR applies to disambiguation pages just as much as regular articles, specially when the the satelite articles are not properly referenced. Others believe we should be more lenient of WP:V. Essentially do we delete the "unsourced information"? In short, the disambiguation list is sourced from the main articles, nevertheless those same articles have unreliable, totally missing, unsourced, etc.. information. I am moving with my right to remove the articles from the disambigation per WP:OR. Some think we should keep it until we remove the information from the main articles. Note: I have also added, citation required, to the ones that require the information. -- CyclePat 20:43, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
I have given a firm warning to user:Dethme0w on removing a "citation required" and violating WP:OR. The EgyptAir page states its relationship to the the term "MS", however it does not provide sufficient, verifiable information. This information is hence in violation of WP:V and unsourced information. Again, the main article is not properly sourced and there appears to be some sort of dispute in this regard. I have place my warning on the related pages. I will delete this information and then leave it for someone else to take care of... obviously we can't monitor every wikipedian that has an axe to grind and some "unreliable information to provide" or can we? -- CyclePat 21:18, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
I was wondering what people think of Spartacus Schoolnet as a source. I certainly wouldn't use it in areas where there is great controversy - it's certainly not a "gold standard" source - but I've found their work generally quite solid in areas where I'm expert.
I noticed that we didn't have an article on confessed and convicted Soviet spy Allan Nunn May. The Spartacus article on May seems accurate on everything I know about, evenhanded and to-the-point. But I seem to remember them being questioned as a source in the past, I believe because of presumed leftist leanings. Any comments? And if the comments are negative on this source, any suggestions what would be a more acceptable source on May? - Jmabel | Talk 19:46, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Since no one seems to be objecting, I'll go ahead and do this (just a stub for now, but at least it will be a cited stub). - Jmabel | Talk 00:13, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Ok, this is admittedly a strange one. On the SpySheriff article an editor would like to post the following info:
SpySheriff is on a US server made in May 28th, 2005. SpySheriff IP address has been found to be 64.28.183.99 it's been found out that SpySheriff & Spy-Sheriff.com is on that IP address This is in United States, California, Newhall. ISP Cernel INC.
His reasoning based on his talk page is:
If you've seen the history you'll see me giving a link showing the source, that is just one link, other sites as well say that SpySherrif and Spy-sheriff are located on those servers, this is the link I used, I can give more links if needed, as I do belive but just do a google search on the ip then you'll see, I did more research then that.
LINK: http://www.domaintools.com/reverse-ip/?hostname=64.28.183.99
And further he says:
Links: http://www.siteadvisor.com/sites/64.28.183.99/postid?p=512494 McAfee Has not given any rating at all, but the comments say something else, I have not in any way contact with the reviewers.
http://toolbar.netcraft.com/site_report?url=http://www.spysheriff.com Now, netcraft is a service you should trust at that, they know what they're doing.
http://www.domaintools.com/reverse-ip/?hostname=64.28.183.99 Saying that SpySheriff and spy-sheriff are on the server.
Check this ip 64.28.183.99 on http://www.ip2location.com/free.asp http://www.ip-adress.com/ and http://www.geobytes.com/IpLocator.htm
http://www.ipaddresslocation.org/ip-address-location.php?ip=64.28.183.99
Now those are just "Ip locating" software, and 1 link showing to McAfee siteadvisor ratings and Netcraft. So what more do you want?
My question is, are such lookups considered a reliable source? Are they considered original research? Are they even appropriate - can/should wikipedia articles be listed IP ranges for software creators? Arthur 23:35, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Well for the matter, this could be relevant for example that SpySheriff hosts more sites and that we know the location for example. --Kanonkas 17:59, 14 November 2007 (UTC) 2nd, isn't netcraft a reliable source?
Is Wikinews, our sister project, a reliable source? I was under the impression that it does have editorial oversight, and also issues journalist credentials. • Lawrence Cohen 18:35, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
The work of employees of US Federal agencies is normally in the public domain, correct? What about when someone leaks the document?
I uploaded Image:Map of camp delta from "Camp Delta Standard Operating Procedure".jpg. So, does it matter that the Bush Presidency has fought the Freedom of Information Act request for this document? It is still in the public domain?
Cheers! Geo Swan 06:54, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
A discussion about reliable sources for this article can be found here. Additional input would be most welcome.-- The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 01:38, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
In the article primary source, the issue has come up whether three unsigned help pages from university libraries count as reliable sources for the definition of primary source. The three websites are:
It is perhaps relevant that there is extensive writing on this subject in peer-reviewed journals and books which are clearly reliable and cited in the article, so it's not an issue of websites being the only sources on the subject that exist. COGDEN 22:12, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Cogden, you continue to misunderstand the basic concept of NOR. The policy does not ban all research that happens to be original to someone... it just bans original research made by Wikipeida editors. Mentioning Einstein's conclusions about relativity is not considered a NOR violation... because these conclusions are external to Wikipedia. One of our editors did not come up with the concusions, Einstein did. Of course, any interpretation of Einsteins conclusions could well be OR... if one of our editors went beyond what Einstein concluded and stated, for example, that Einstein's theory means that Aliens could not have visited Earth, that would be OR... since Einstein does not discuss this. Blueboar ( talk) 20:29, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm wondering if I can use IMDb as a reference for confirmation of a subject being on the cover a particular. IMDb has a section entitled "Publicity" which basically lists magazines and covers a certain actor or personality has been on. When I used it for the Vanessa Angel, another editor said it shouldn't be used as it's not reliable. I know the trivia & bio sections of IMDb sections cannot be used as references, but does this also pertain to sections with credits (ie publicity or movie/tv appearances)? I can't find anything to verify that she was on the cover of these magazines except for a few websites that aren't really reliable and basically just took their info from Wiki to begin with. I've used that section to find back issues of magazines and from personal experience (I know, like that counts!), it seemed pretty reliable. Short of tracking down the two old magazines myself (Vogue and Cosmo), I'm at a loss as to how to source this info. Pinkadelica ( talk) 03:06, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Currently, the Megan Meier article uses terms like "mother of a friend of Meier's." to describe a woman who may or may not have driven a young teenager to suicide. Obviously, we need a reliable source before we can mention names.
None of the previous sources are sufficient to reliably assert the full name of the woman concerned on the article. However, does the sum total of these add up to something that can be taken as a reliable source? John Nevard ( talk) 08:13, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
An acceptable source was found at Talk:Megan_Meier#Further_source by another editor, which is this. I'll tag this as resolved. • Lawrence Cohen 06:59, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
These two documents claim two opposite facts:
• 1: http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/documents/DRDB_UK_DAB+_policy.pdf • 2: http://www.worlddab.org/upload/uploaddocs/WorldDMBPress%20Release_November.pdf • Wich one is the more reliable source?
Background: the first document, DRDB_UK_DAB+_policy.pdf is used to claim tha the UK is going to switch from DAB to DAB+ (third paragraph in the intro on this link):
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Digital_Audio_Broadcasting&diff=172456581&oldid=172397580#_note-3
best regards, Ga-david.b ( talk) 17:22, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Is it a reliable source? MrMurph101 ( talk) 03:51, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I was reading your entry on William Richard Bradford.
Yes he was the inspiration for a case on CSI Miami, because one of the pictures is the sister of one of the actors in the show. The real sister of the real actor.
The inaccuracy part:
the authorities do NOT BELIEVE that MOST of these girls could be pictures of his victims right before their death. HOW DO I know this? Because I HAVE SPOKEN, at length, on the telephone, with the head of the Los Angeles Cty Sheriff's office, the Detective in charge of this case.
MOST OF THE GIRLS IN THESE PHOTOS are believed to BE ALIVE. Many, many of them have been positively identified since the airing of the CSI show, and the publicity of the poster. The poster itself has been updated recently.
About 1/2 (according to the direct source, the head law enforcement investigator on this case) of the girls have been identified and found alive.
A few are in fact dead and unidentified. Law Enforcement is pursuing continuing interrogations with William Richard Bradford to see if he will give up more information about the people in these photos and help them identify, dead or alive, the unidentified women in these photos.
It is, if you are concerned for accuracy, very important to update these kinds of things often. This is a hot case, and the changes are occurring freqently, and the best place for official sources are the officials doing the leg work.
Patricia member, Cold Cases (we're also trying to ID these girls) ColdCases @yahoo groups. (founded by the man who founded the DOE Network... google DOE Network and see)
I posted this before I joined, it's my first and only post here. I will now read how to do this properly. I have now got a username. If I have put this here in error (as I suspect I might have), please move it. I will 'watch' it and see what is happening. Feel free to instruct me. MrsMagellan ( talk) 22:09, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
While I dont have problem with linking to citizendium per se, alot of links have appeared lately with wordings such as: a much more detailed article at citizendium, more detailed article... etc. While some of those links are usefull Im starting to suspect that the main motivation to adding them has been to generate traffic for their project, if thats indeed the case then its problematic. My suspicion grew even more after investigating a little bit: Just last week Larry Sanger himself made a post at http://blog.citizendium.org/ (scroll down alittle) asking people to deliberatly Google bomb because he felt they were not getting enough exposure by google. This guy in particular: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Cryptographic_hash seems to be adding/reverting to keep the links in place with the wordings I described above.I was gona add a list of articles but his contributions page already does that. Can somebody have a look at this? 201.50.174.173 ( talk) 09:35, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
There has been some discussion on the Talk:Landmark Education page about the inclusion in the article of in item on the Landmark Reformers Group, where the only real source for the existence of this group and their opinions is a blog and an online petition. Jossi has pointed out that these do not qualify as reliable sources for wikipedia purposes. Has anyone got any comments on this? Should the item be removed from the article unless some other source references can be found?
On the Campus Watch article, under the 'support' section, it references someone who supports Campus Watch and the citation comes directly from campus-watch.org/endorsements.php. Is using Campus watch's web site a violation of WP:V/ WP:RS? Also, if Campus watch is considered a reliable source, then is the quote notable enough to include? Thanks. — Christopher Mann McKay talk 00:43, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
A question in a similar vein: Bat Ye'or's biography is currently balancing negative quotes about the quality of her research (which is literally all you can find from academic historians of the issues she writes on) with positive quotes from back-of-the-dust-jacket "blurbs". Interestingly, one of our citations on that article is a book review which grumbles about how a previous review was taken out of context (In the vein of "Good on her for broaching this topic, too bad she's a hack", and you can guess where they terminated the quotation). Am I on solid ground to delete or tag these reviews in the absence of any source other than the dust jacket and non-reliable web sites copying it? < eleland/ talk edits> 21:16, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
First off, forgive me if I query in the wrong area, Wiki-newbie onboard (old fart, too) and fail to use the snazzy Wiki terms that seems to run one around in circles. In order to keep this short, I will omit names, and speak as if a hypothetical scenario.
An investigative journalist writes a book. No major publishers accept the book at that time. The journalist creates a website, and sells his book, in trade paper format. A book publisher reads the book, and then buys it. A few mixed book reviews (pro/con), nothing mentioned in academia land, and now this book is a Reliable Source in the eyes of Wikipedia?
Sign me confused in Seattle Jim ( talk) 14:14, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Gerry, I can relate (understand) the reference to academia. Still, what part of my “hypothetical scenario” makes it a “Reliable Source” in the eyes of Wikipedia? Even with the removal of "academia land" (still playing the old guy card) Jim ( talk) 18:26, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Tkynerd and Blueboar. I read WP:V (see above, run around in circles). I was looking for a more definitive answer, which Blueboar gave. Evidently, if somebody publishes it…it is a ‘Reliable Source’. Or, read WP link this, that or the other thing. Lather, rinse, repeat. LoL..Thanks again, Jim ( talk) 21:50, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
There is a good bit of discussion going on at Mediation Cabal, RFC, and Mediation request regarding using an unreliable web source that reprinted a Saturday Evening Post article. The Saturday Evening Post article is fine as a reference for the material and a proper cite journal tag has been created for it (acceptable for Verifiability). However the dispute is to use the web link to an unreliable web site in the reference (url=). The option of adding "format=reprint" was brought up in the Mediation, but we're entering into a gray area on policy. Please comment. Should this link be included in the reference? Should we link to an unreliable source that reprints a reliable source, making it easier for a reader to verify the information or should we stick with a direct reference to the reliable source, which may be more difficult to verify (purchase, library, or web search)? Morphh (talk) 20:34, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
One editor is claiming that editorials are self published sources. I was under the belief that the newspaper was the publisher not the journalist who wrote the piece. Can someone confirm that editorials are not self-published? -- Neon white ( talk) 16:09, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Does millisecond need to have reference? —Preceding unsigned comment added by CyclePat ( talk • contribs)
I don't know what user:TenOfAllTrades is talking about in terms of warning me for what I'm doing here. I also do not know what he is talking about in term of a warning concerning an idiosyncractic understanding of WP:V and WP:SYN follow a block, which he administered. Surelly someone can answer the above question without bias and with substantiated references to what the community believes? -- CyclePat ( talk) 23:47, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
There is an editor who wants to use http://www.stopanimaltests.com/f-lemasPigs.asp as a source on Stopping power. The editor is claiming not allowing this source is censorship [64]. I feel that an anti-animal testing site is unlikely to be a quality source per WP:VER and WP:RS. Comments? Arthurrh 18:54, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
I would like to ask what should be a simple question - Is Youtube a reliable source? Or, to put it another way, should a youtube video be linked to in an article in mainspace, where it appears as a reference for a particular incident?
In the article MacGregor State High School, it appears that a youtube video is given (along with a citeweb for a local newspaper and a local tvnews program) as the source for the incident. I am wondering whether the youtube video is considererd viable, or verifiable here? Newbyguesses - Talk 23:00, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
This IETF meeting log is being discussed as a WP:RS to SMTP protocol work, and as a reliable source to information about opinions on these.
As i see it the log, while unconventional, is the equivalent to a regular transcript of a meeting. It is published by the IETF as the official meeting log of the 7 nov 2006 meeting.
Now the question is: Can it be used as a reference and is it a reliable source?. -- Kim D. Petersen 13:45, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
There is currently an open RfC on this issue at RfC: Should the following criticism be included?. One of the objections raised in the editors involved in this issue is whether the sources being cited are WP:RS. In this case both sources, Roger Pielke Jr. and Steven McIntyre have met the criteria for being WP:N in their own rights and both have relevant publications in respected journals. The sources in question are articles published on their respective websites (i.e. sites operated by themselves). Under these circumstances WP:SPS seems to allow the use of these as WP:RS sources:
Emphasis is in the original. I would seek outside opinions on this matter. -- GoRight 19:13, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Red_Army
So, user RJD0060 is reverting my edits. I've added a link to a youtube video from a Japanese broadcast news source that recorded the aftermath of the Japanese Red Army's bomb attack on a Mitsubishi Heavy Industries LTD. headquarters building.
I don't know where he thinks this is a "copyright violation". Look at the Kevin Cosgrove article. There is a link to his 911 call on Youtube.
This video gives solid audiovisual evidence that an attack took place on 1974. The video link is a source for the line in the article which reads "The JRA launched a series of 17 bombings on buildings belonging to large corporations, including Mitsui & Co. and Taisei Corp, injuring 20 people. Eight people were killed in the bombing of Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd.'s head office building in Tokyo.". This "fact" previously had ZERO sources to back up its claim that the JRA launched bomb attacks against 17 buildings, INCLUDING the bombing of Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd.'s head office building in Tokyo.
[65] is the link. See the video for yourselves. Parliamentary Funk 00:04, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
In WP:SELFPUB#Self-published and questionable sources in articles about themselves it says to use self-published sources it must be releveant to their notability and must not be unduly self-serving to be able to use in articles.
Daniel Pipes, the founder of Campus Watch, is a journalist, among other occupations. Pipes has written two articles, one glorifying and praising Campus Watch’s intentions, and another refuting a criticism about Campus Watch. One of the articles was a opt-ed opinion article published in the The Jerusalem Post and the other was published in FrontPage Magazine. A user keeps adding these two articles as citations on the Campus Watch article. When I state this is a WP:SELFPUB violation, he says the sources are not self-published because the newspaper and magazine are not published by Pipes. Are these articles self-published sources or are they not considered self-published because Pipes wrote them, but didn't publish them? Thanks. — Christopher Mann McKay talk 17:59, 29 November 2007 (UTC)