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I'm curious whether there's any firm consensus on the use of live events as sources, providing that there's video evidence of said events. Note that I'm not asking about using videos of events as sources. Rather, I'm asking about using the event itself as a source, while simply providing a link to the video in the url field. The reason why I'm asking about this is that are a lot of YouTube videos out there, uploaded by non-professional channels, depicting events held by professional organizations. In the case of say, a Comic-Con panel, conventional practice would seem to treat the video of the panel as the source and the channel that uploaded the video as the publisher - but I find myself wondering whether one could simply treat the panel itself as the source and Comic-Con as the publisher. There's zero doubt of the validity of the information found in these sources, as we're hearing it straight from the horse's mouth (For example, practically speaking, a YouTube video of an actor at Comic-Con talking about his experience making a movie is every bit as reliable as him doing so on a DVD commentary). And there's also zero doubt that events like Comic-Con hold a considerable amount of credibility. If this were a YouTube video of an actor talking with a fan over coffee, that the fan then uploaded to his personal YouTube channel, then sure, that would hardly pass muster. But I fail to see why a professionally organized event couldn't be deemed as a "Reliable source". There actually was a brief discussion about this on the RS Noticeboard in the past - see here WP:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 122#Youtube videos of panels from conventions - but that conversation (from over three years ago) was focused on whether the video could be treated as a reliable source, rather than the event. I've also noticed that Template:Cite speech exists, and while that template states that any speeches used as sources must be "published or broadcast", it never technically specifies that the publisher or broadcaster need be a reliable source in its own right. In fact, the very first example given of how to use this template doesn't even include anything in the url field. It simply names the speech, the event and location at which the speech was given, the date on which the speech was given, and the person who gave the speech. Could we use this template (or create a similar template) for things like panel discussions? -- Jpcase ( talk) 16:31, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
This cite, while relevant, doesn't speak directly to the article's subject, let alone in the context that this reference suggests, within the lead of the article. I'm referring to WP:SYNTH and WP:Original Research, here. While I have tried to improve it without removing it, I am now being told it must be used as a direct quote. Given that this source doesn't even mention the subject in this citation, I question the "exact" context and weight it is given in the Lead Section on GSL. Darknipples ( talk) 21:59, 31 January 2016 (UTC) What do you think, Zwerg Nase? - Darknipples ( talk) 22:10, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
The quote also makes no mention of background checks, which is a core aspect concerning the article's subject. Darknipples ( talk) 00:23, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
Hi, can someone please verify if these sources are reliable or not? qubrex and GurgaonScoop are used continuously by a possible WP:COI editor to add negative content over Raheja Developers. Mr RD 05:44, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
Hi, I am new to this whole thing and I wanted to do a page about the first donut shop in my hometown. I want to vote against the policy of having verifiable information from other source. My hometown heritage guild does not have info on the donut shop and I am working with them to build a history. The donut shop was started by my grandparents in 1962 and is still there as a donut shop but has been run by various people since my grandparents sold it in the mid 70's. How can I make a page for the donut shop? This is a staple of generations of people from Livermore Ca. It is even used for the facebook page,...You know you're from Livermore if....
I would appreciate any advice and help anyone is willing to give.. Thanks, Leslie≈≈≈≈
Proper sourcing always depends on context; common sense and editorial judgment are an indispensable part of the process.and
The policy on sourcing is Wikipedia:Verifiability, which requires inline citations for any material challenged or likely to be challenged, and for all quotations.So, if there is a claim in an article that is not controversial and not stating anything harmful to any living or recently deceased person, then it's allowable according to the policy. People often think that sourcing is required for everything on Wikipedia but that's not actually the case. It's a process of challenge. If you are challenged on the notability then it can be removed. You also must be careful of conflict of interest. However, articles about towns often get a lot of material that is unsourced, and this is ok. It seems to be a culture of Wikipedia. There is the danger of too much "cruft" and clutter on hometown articles, but there's also the benefit of local knowledge by actual people. I like how it works. I do pare back my own hometown's page sometimes, a bit, but i certainly do not remove all unsourced statements -- that would be horribly unfriendly and counterproductive for the readers of Wikipedia, as well as mean to all the editors who added their own knowledge. SageRad ( talk) 16:43, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
I recently added the following to RT (TV network) (refs converted):
I want a link to the Tumblr blog in there, but as has already happened, some editors are likely to remove it with the "Tumblr isn't RS" argument. While I'm pretty sure it is acceptable as is, I'm interested ideas to make it less of a point of conflict. Trappedinburnley ( talk) 19:31, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fabian Benko is claiming that https://www.football.com/en/guardiola-pleased-with-teen-benko/ and http://bundesligafanatic.com/one-for-the-future-bayern-munichs-fabian-benko/ are neither long enough for GNG and the second is claimed to definitely not be a reliable source. A journalism student who has editorial oversight seems to meed RS. 208.81.212.224 ( talk) 19:50, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
disruptive editing – IP repeatedly inserting wild ( WP:Fringe) non- WP:RS claims. [7]. What to do? Zezen ( talk) 22:45, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
Thanks, Darkfrog24, as I do not talk to numbers. Please note that it is a hopping IP. Zezen ( talk) 07:04, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
User:Bad Dryer excised an important clarification of statutory rape in a footnote to the lead of Ezra Nawi here. The given reason was that the source was a blog.’rmv blog. This is a BLP’
The source is:
Alex Massie The Last of Mr Norris, The Spectator.
'Most of the coverage of the case that I’ve seen has hyped the "rape" aspect of the matter and downplayed the "statutory" part. And with good reason since, oft-forgotten in the subsequent brouhaha, this was, and was accepted as such by the Israeli court, an episode of consensual sex. People may still find this an unsavoury episode but the Israeli court plainly accepted that though in a technical sense a crime had been committed there was no malice involved and no real victim. If that had not been the case one would have expected Nawi to spend more than just a month in prison. But that’s what happened.'
I can’t see why a clarification from a leading journalist, with a mainstream curriculum, writing in a highly respected weekly, on the distinction between rape and statutory rape, infringes WP:BLP. Indeed I put it in because I think introducing, as this and several other editors have, sources with headlines screaming ‘rapist’ (which he most definitely was not) was a BLP violation. A regular page hosted by a major journal for a noted journalist is not what we exclude as a blog (personal page run by anyone).
Comments from experts on both WP:BLP and WP:RS are needed. Nishidani ( talk) 08:47, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
...this is a statement about his moral guilt...If there are any statements about 'moral guilt' in that article, they need to be removed right now. Commenting on an individual's morality is not WP's purview, and is a blatant violation of WP:BLP. It may also be Defamation. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 22:14, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
The letters to the Israeli court after Mr Nawi’s conviction for statutory rape in 1997, do not mention that the pair were former lovers.
false claim that "The Irish Independent articles fail consistently to distinguish rape from statutory rape." - the article clearly describes "Mr Nawi’s conviction for statutory rape in 1997"
There's a disagreement with respect to the usability of source material which is otherwise compliant with WP:RS, WP:NOTABLE, and our other guidelines for usable source material if it's hosted in the wikisource project. While I agree that unlocked wikisource material is like any other wiki, not stable, changeable by any editor, and not acceptable under WP:RS, what about wikisource material which has been locked per the wikisource protection policy?
I'm asking this because a template for citation of wikisource material in wikipedia articles exists, Template: Cite wikisource.
On the "Cite wikisource" template page, under Template Documentation, the template states:
That template also provides the scan parameter, described in the template thus:
I've been referred to WP:UGC, with the following exegesis of the guidelines:
However, those guidelines pertain to wikipedia articles "and other wikis."
The wikisource protection policy states, however:
It can be argued that this level of protection of a wikisource-hosted document is as secure as other similar sources we regard as usable for wikipedia article citations hosted elsewhere on the World Wide Web.
I'd like to stimulate discussion, preparatory to an RfC, on whether "locked" wikisource-hosted documents (as defined by the policy I just quoted) ought to be considered usable in wikipedia articles. This is a case where wikipedia's own guidelines and its internal documentation aren't consistent. loupgarous ( talk) 00:21, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
Two websites, milon.walla.co.il and globalresearch.org, are being used as the sources at Targeted killings by Israel Defense Forces to explain to readers that the term Targeted killing is also referred to as targeted prevention, focused foiling and extrajudicial assassination. In restoring those alternative names and the two sources mentioned above Debresser explained, "Restore sourced information. In addition, I am not sure terms need much sourcing."
Are these websites reliable sources for these alternative terms? And is Debresser correct that these terms may not "need much sourcing?" Help would be appreciated. - Darouet ( talk) 01:43, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
Source: [9]. For information about the publisher, [10] identifies the publisher as "Miss World Limited (registered in Jersey under Company no. 17598) ('MWL')".
Article (deleted): Tamar Nemsitsveridze
Content supported by the source:
1986 or 1987
1986 or 1987 (age 36–37)
Kutarsi
She studied at the American University for Humanities.
RSN request submitted by Unscintillating ( talk) 14:47, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
I am attempting to contribute to the controversial Electronic Harassment article and battling with the troubling fact that the person who coined the phrase has not been reported in mainstream media or anywhere else that I can find that would be regarded as a RS. However, there are many mainstream articles that use the term and as far as I can see they are accepting his definition of the term. The term has gone up there, but not the coiner of the term. He has popularized that term in radio interviews many on Coast to Coast AM, which I expect would not be regarded as a RS as they talk about conspiracy theories. He has been a guest 67 times since 2003. He has a website in which he has clearly defined the term in ways that do not involve a conspiracy theory. He only talks about "harassers" but does not speculate or theorize about who. It has however not been RS reviewed anywhere that I can find. His intro at Coast to Coast AM: "Biography: Roger Tolces is a Los Angeles private investigator who specializes in electronic countermeasures. In the past thirty years he has swept over 2500 locations for bugs and wiretaps. In recent years his business has included helping victims of electronic harassment and mind control. Electronic harassment takes place if someone uses any electronic device to aid them in invading your person or property for the purpose of gathering information illegally, or for the purpose of causing physical harm. Mr. Tolces uses over $100,000 of high-tech equipment to try to identify the sources of electronic harassment. Website:bugsweeps.com ." So, is there some way that I can put his definition of the term into the "electronic harassment" article? It seems the article gets a bit lost without the original definition of the term. Jed Stuart ( talk) 05:01, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
References
According to link search [12] bodybuilding.com is linked to 350 times. Is it a reliable source? Are we being spammed by "an American online retailer based in Boise, Idaho, specializing in dietary supplements, sports supplements, and bodybuilding supplements"? -- Guy Macon ( talk) 15:29, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
I'm posting here about Vents Magazine. Offhand it does seem like it's used on Wikipedia, but I can't really verify its editorial oversight or any of the other material. The website doesn't really give off the greatest impression in places, given that they have somewhat broken html in places like "[contact_form]" that doesn't go to any contact form and stuff like this "Rafa[symposium-profile][symposium-forum][symposium-members][symposium-mail]". The site is mentioned in a few places like Under the Gun Review, but I'm not finding a huge-huge amount out there to where I'd be comfortable with this given the situation.
What I'd need to know is if these interviews could be considered usable as a reliable source to establish notability. The reason for this is that there have been issues with the article for Rita Pam Tarachi, one of the most major of which is a pretty serious lack of notability. If these are usable these would be the first in-depth sources for the article, as everything else is trivial, primary, or unreliable for various reasons. (IE, self-published sources, etc. One is a review via a website that accepts payment for "expedited" reviews and refuses to give anything less than 4 stars.)
If anyone wants to help out with the article as a whole, feel free. I'm aware that it can sometimes be difficult to find sourcing for other countries like Nigeria, but there seems to be a pretty big lack of sourcing overall at times. This one looks like it can go either way. There have been some attempts to get the article creator to help find better sources, but they don't appear to be entirely helpful in that aspect and they have tried to insist that some of the dodgy sourcing is usable, despite attempts to explain why the sourcing is problematic. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 05:31, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
Is this considered a reliable source of news? Its seems pretty horrifically biased to me. - Jack Sebastian ( talk) 15:07, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
Hi. Is this source reliable as a source for this addition to the Saga (comic book) article? One of the reasons why I ask is that when I look at the site's staff page, it's 14 pages long, with 10 writers on each page. Also, when clicking on the "About" link at the top of the site's pages, one of the sublinks is "Pitch to Us".
I've also noticed, when doing a search here on WP, that that site is cited as a source in five other articles. The five passages in those articles in which it is cited are as follows. Each link directs to the passage in the Wikipedia article in question, and the type of info for which it is cited is presented as the text of the external link:
So is it reliable? Nightscream ( talk) 14:45, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
Hi there, I'm trying to improve Draft:TopSpeed.com to increase the number of references that are about the publication itself rather than the publication's content. I found this source that seems to hit the spot, being a third-party review of the website, but I'm not sure how reliable it is. Looking forward for any advice, thanks! WikiAlexandra ( talk) 10:23, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
Article: ExxonMobil climate change controversy
ExxonMobil researchers have published dozens of academic papers on the effects of fossil fuel emissions and the associated risks to society; ExxonMobil claims more than 50 peer reviewed papers on climate research and policy between 1980 and 2015.
In an email, Exxon spokesman Richard D. Keil said he would no longer respond to inquiries from InsideClimate News, and added, "ExxonMobil scientists have been involved in climate research and related policy analysis for more than 30 years, yielding more than 50 papers in peer-reviewed publications."
Company scientists have contributed to dozens of scientific papers that supported this view and explored the extent of the risks.
Between 1980 and 2015, Exxon and ExxonMobil researchers and academic collaborators published more than 50 peer reviewed papers on climate research and climate policy.
In an email, Exxon spokesman Richard D. Keil said he would no longer respond to inquiries from InsideClimate News, and added, "ExxonMobil scientists have been involved in climate research and related policy analysis for more than 30 years, yielding more than 50 papers in peer-reviewed publications."(emphasis added)
Attempted resolution at article talk: Talk:ExxonMobil_climate_change_controversy#February_2016_OVERCITE_issues
Additional related primary source:
{{
cite web}}
: Invalid |ref=harv
(
help) (Exxon compiled bibliography)Comment: When sources conflict or may appear to conflict, include the conflict. Secondary sources are preferred to primary. Independent sources are preferred to self-published sources. Respectfully request feedback on alternative sourcing and summarizations. Thank you. Hugh ( talk) 18:46, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
So far, two editors support deference to secondary sources over sources with a conflict of interest. Any other comments? Thank you. Hugh ( talk) 17:58, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
Thus far three editors have expressed a preference for the first alternative summarization above, based on our project's preference for secondary over primary sources, and independent over self-published, and one expressed preference for the second alternative. Any other new voices? Thank you! Hugh ( talk) 08:20, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
I was wondering if somebody could cast an eye over Bones (season 11). The article uses a number of citations from unverified Twitter accounts and discussion forums like http://disqus.com. {{ cite tweet}} is used 7 times and disqus.com is used 8 times. I tried removing one of these sources but it was reverted, twice now. [17] [18] One of the editors who reverted me was also involved in the addition of WP:SYNTH at List of Better Call Saul episodes [19] [20] and the ensuing discussion on the talk page there, so simply removing the offending citations there will only start an edit war. -- AussieLegend ( ✉) 19:17, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
I've now tagged the unreliable discussion forum citations, [21] and tweets, [22] but would still appreciate a second (or third or fourth) opinion. I did have to remove one completely, [23] as it was not from the person who it claimed to be from, as can be seen by trying to verify the citation:
-- AussieLegend ( ✉) 17:06, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
OK, since nobody seems interested in actually looking at the article, perhaps somebody could answer a simple question: Are the following tweets acceptable sources?
-- AussieLegend ( ✉) 05:00, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
Tweets are largely not acceptable as sources. Tweets and other self-published material may sometimes be acceptable, if the conditions specified at
WP:SPS or
WP:TWITTER are met. For further information, see the
Wikipedia:Verifiability policy and the
Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources guideline. |
"unverified accounts belonging to mere staff members can't really be taken as authoritative"says who?
"As somebody not very high on the totem pole, they probably aren't privy to the higher level decisions" how would you know that and what does that have to do with anything? They're some not assistant or someone who works for craft service, they're a writer for the series. There's nothing in WP:SPS or WP:TWITTER that says a Twitter account has to be verified, as long as it meets the requirements, which it does. There's nothing to suggest that the information being provided in anything but accurate. She posts images of script pages, on-set photos, production meetings, etc. The official Bones Twitter retweets her, she followed by Bones creator Hart Hanson, and Bones actors including Emily Deschanel, John Boyd, and Tamara Taylor–all verified accounts. Every time we've used her as a source for an upcoming episode for Bones (season 11), it has been correct, obviously. I went back and found her Tweets for episode title reveals for episodes that have already been aired, thus the information in then can be verified: episode 1 (of which includes replies by the official Bones Twitter), episode 2, episode 3, episode 5, episode 6, episode 10. Again, there is nothing to suggest the information being provided is false or not authentic, because she is proven to be reliable and correct. Please apply some common sense here. Drovethrughosts ( talk) 21:22, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
They're some not assistant or someone who works for craft service, they're a writer for the series.- You're assuming that they are a writer. As WP:SPS says,
Anyone can create a personal web page ... and also claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason ... Internet forum postings, and social media postings, are largely not acceptable as sources.-- AussieLegend ( ✉) 07:50, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
When I say that some reasonable investigation is appropriate before using a Twitter account, I mean things like whether the account is retweeted by or otherwise clearly has the confidence of something official, whether it is attributed to an expert (a writer for a show is an expert on that show), etc. I'd say Drovethrughosts has done this investigation, and my take is that the Twitter account is usable with caution per WP:SPS unless some specific reason to doubt its veracity should emerge. Darkfrog24 ( talk) 17:20, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
{{
Television episode ratings}}
includes. Ratings have been discussed on numerous occasions, including when we added a section on series overview tables to the MOS (see
this discussion).|work=
field, but the citations link to disqus, which is just forum type posts. Any reader without intricate knowledge is only going to see these as discussion forum posts, especially when the url includes the word "discussion". Even assuming that somebody can work out that the author is SonOfTheBronx, looking at the
SonOfTheBronx disqus page provides no indication that Douglas Pucci = SonOfTheBronx. Following a link to "Programming Insider" from that page sends you to https://disqus.com/home/forum/programminginsider, which is clearly a discussion forum on disqus. Despite protestations to the contrary, these are all forums meant for discussions. "Disqus" is not a misspelling of "
discus", it's a play on "
discuss". The
homepage includes the explanations "Great discussions are happening here" and "Disqus offers publishers the best tools in the universe to power discussions". Let's get rid of this silly notion that these "comments" sections are not discussion forums, when they clearly are. --
AussieLegend (
✉) 04:37, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
A few things: 1) Neither I nor anyone else at this noticeboard gets to decide this issue. It's not binding arbitration. We're just adding our voices because at least one of you thought more voices were needed. 2) My own take is that if SonoftheBronx has been concretely identified as Douglas Pucci, and if Pucci is reliable then comments that he leaves in response to readers in articles that he wrote can sometimes be used if they're straightforward. This seems to be one of those times. 3) The issue is whether Pucci is reliable. So the question is this: Did those previous RfCs deal with Pucci specifically? Was there anything wrong or missing?
The other question: Is there anywhere else we could get this information that would not involve all this controversy? I think that discussing sources on RSN is a perfectly valid way to spend one's time and energy—if it doesn't produce results for this content then everyone involved gets more familiar with the policies for next time—but would reinvesting any of it in further searching be more helpful?
Hang on... Darkfrog24 ( talk) 21:46, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
I'll address the other points because they seem to need it, to improve your approach to these matters, even if this particular case doesn't require these notes. As for even SonOfTheBronx's own blog material at ProgrammingInsider.com: Unless his work on those posts is subject to the same level of editorial control as articles at a newspaper, it's a low-quality primary source that must be used "with caution" if at all, as a matter of policy. It doesn't matter how popular and well-regarded the site is. Thirdly, if SonOfTheBronx's comments about the Nielsen ratings cannot be verified with an RS, they are in fact simply that commenter's opinion. Anyone can say "according to The Huffington Post's "Intelligence Community" section and The New York Times' "U.S. Intelligence Community News section", the NSA and MI-6 have confirmed space aliens have spies in almost every country" (a claim with two secondary and two primary sources of high reliability); if we can find no such news articles or agency/ministry press releases, it's just Internet noise we cannot cite as a source (exception: if the claim itself were notable, e.g. for causing an Orson Welles, War of the Worlds-style panic, then it could be cited as a primary source for its own wording, date, and by-line). If SonOfTheBronx's Nielsen Ratings source is real, we should be able to find that (these ratings are published), and cite it. There is no need to ever even try to cite that blog comment, either way. Please do your homework about policy before telling others to do theirs about some website. Our policies are written to address general classes of circumstance, so that we don't have agonize over particular cases as if there's no precedent for how to handle them. :-) — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 14:35, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
Sorry. I should have thought of this days ago. I searched for Bones ratings and found this TVseriesfinale.com and then I found this by searching for "Bones" and "6.197" tvratings.telekomanda.com tviv.org. These sources do not meet our expert criteria, but the information that they contain contradicts what we see in the DISQUS comment. Searches for "Bones" and "8.618" to corroborate SonoftheBronx's figures produced only forums. Regardless of whether Pucci is reliable in general, and even experts can make mistakes, the accuracy of this specific content is now in question. Determining whether or not he has expert status is not just a formality. I'd say "don't use." Darkfrog24 ( talk) 22:10, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
uses sources directly linked to the ULC and published by the ULC.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/12/fashion/weddings/12FIELD.html?_r=0 specifically states the famous people are claimed by the ULC, not they are ministers as a statement of fact
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/12/fashion/weddings/12FIELD.html?_r=0 has Glenn Beck making an apparent joke about the ULC - as he is a LDS member, I think this must be interpreted in a manner other than as seriously being connected to the ULC
"The Modesto messiah: The famous mail-order minister" published by the ULC is used as a source for famous persons being members and ministers. In the case at hand, is this SPS a reliable source for claims about membership and ordinations?
http://www.presstelegram.com/20131009/how-we-totally-screwed-up-a-marriage-with-a-wee-error mentions the ULC claims - then notes the ministership was not valid for the writer (anecdote)
http://thedevilanddanvojir.blogspot.ca/2009_07_02_archive.html is a blog - which also attributes the "famous names" to the ... ULC
And on and on and on. (like "bustle.com" etc.)
Labeling any person as having a specific "religion" is problematic in itself, but using any SPS to label a person as an "ordained minister" of that religion should be at least as problematic. The question is -- are there any actual "reliable sources" in that entire "list" that the famous people are or were "ordained ministers" in that church? Many thanks. Collect ( talk) 19:02, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
At the Western Wall#Jewish section there is a quote attributed to Shlomo Goren (Chief Rabbi of the IDF, Chief Rabbi of Israel, so not a light weight as far as being a scholar, etc.) He wrote that the tradition to pray at the Western Wall is only about 300 years old. [1]
The problem is that this is factually incorrect. See the very same article: Western_Wall#Prayer_at_the_Wall and some highlights:
So, do we keep the Goren quote and just mark it with something? Do we not include the quote? It is a notable quote because Goren is notable but it is not factual and it also not a reliable source since it clearly goes against the factual evidence. Sir Joseph (talk) 18:38, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
Whether or not rabbis contradict the Talmud is irrelevant, in this case the Talmud says we pray to the Wall because that's the last remnant of the Temple. It's a factual statement. It's not a question of what ruling and then we have a disagreement. As for rabbis disagreeing, no, if there is no factual disagreeing in the Talmud, you won't have rabbis disagreeing and certainly not a 20th Century one there are rules for that. And allow me to correct myself, it's not actually in the Talmud, it predates it, it's in the Mishna which is even earlier and it is undisputed, there is no Talmud on that tractate. "According to the Mishna, of all the four walls of the Temple Mount, the Western Wall was the closest to the Holy of Holies,[123] and therefore that to pray by the Wall is particularly beneficial." [5] After all that, I have to say it's really dubious if he said it. Like I said before I've never heard this 300 year business before. The Wall was THE place to pray. Sir Joseph (talk) 23:29, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
"In front of this place is the Western Wall, which is one of the walls of the Holy of Holies. This is called the Gate of Mercy.
So Sir Joseph is citing wikipedia’s bad content, with 3 sources that do not sustain the contention, being references to a synagogue near the WW, or to a confusion of the Western Wall with the Eastern Wall site, or a forgery. This is done to challenge a reference by an authority on the wall, Shlomo Goren, in an eminently good secondary source. Jews prayed all round Jerusalem, and the Temple Mount and its recent sanctification as the only site for a millenial observance is just POV pushing to suit a post-1967 political agenda, which retroactively strives to justify its new centrality by asserting what is not proven. This is absurd. If anything, that section’s 3 citations to ‘prove’ Jewish worship at the Wall before the 15th century should be reworked to fix the errors noted above. It cannot be used to discredit Shlomo Goren’s judgement. Sir Joseph is using Wikipedia as a reliable source to challenge what an external reliable source cites as an authoritative rabbinical opinion. That turns the whole method of Wikipedia on its head. Nishidani ( talk) 13:16, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
FWIW, the Goren source states that he agrees the wall was a prayer site (as was the Temple Mount) until the Ottoman restrictions left only one site available for Jewish prayer -- the reason for his pronouncement, moreover, was in the context of him supporting building of a synagogue on an added part of the Temple Mount. As this gives context to the "300 years" quote, the full context should be given. Collect ( talk) 13:08, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
There is a lot of confusion over details here. The entire west wall of the Temple Mount is very long but the part of it called the Western Wall/Wailing Wall/Kotel is quite short. I'll apply capitalisation carefully to distinguish. There are old writings about the west wall in general, such as in the Misha, but there are not any pre-medieval writings that clearly identify the Western Wall as a special place for prayer. Many authors feed this confusion by adding capital letters to "western wall" in old writings when the originals have no such indication. To address the Misha, it says that of the four walls of the mount the west wall is the one closest to the "holy of holies", but that doesn't support the Western Wall being a special place because it is quite far south from the most likely location of the "holy of holies" (namely, where the Dome of the Rock is now). The first sources that might refer to the region of the Western Wall are from the Fatmid period, where a few surviving letters refer to a cave used for prayer somewhere in that general area. Moshe Gil suggested it was located in the passage behind Barclay's Gate (at the south end of the Western Wall, long since sealed up), but more recent authors prefer Warren's Gate to the north of the Western Wall. About Goren, although he probably had the facts at his fingertips, he was extremely biased and would have said whatever suited him. In 1967 he tried to convince the local IDF commander to blow up all the Islamic buildings on the Mount; that's a fair summary of his nature. Zero talk 22:01, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
There is no reason not to include Goren within proper context. The text from Jerusalem: A City and Its Future:
Goren also tried to explain that the tradition of the Western Wall as a Jewish prayer site is only three hundred years old and had its origins in restrictions imposed by the Ottoman authorities on Jewish worship elsewhere in the Temple Mount area. “We cannot claim rights at the Western Wall,” Goren wrote to PM Yitzchak Rabin in August 1994. “Its sanctity lies entirely in the fact that it demarcates the Temple Mount, in being a substitute for the Mount of the Lord… As for the haredi rabbis, whose lack of topographic and halakhic knowledge makes them afraid to ascend the Temple Mount and worship there — good luck to them. But we and the entire nation should be permitted to pray freely on the Temple Mount and the Muslims given free access and control of their mosques" (qtd. in Shragai 1994a).
Another source:
For Rabbi Goren, the Western Wall, at which Jews had prayed at for only 300 years, was an extremely important, but nonetheless, secondary, sight. The heart of Jewish longing for 2,000 years was not the Western Wall, but the Beit HaMikdash on Har Habayit, the Temple on the Temple Mount. P. 69 ( Rabbi Shlomo Goren: Torah Sage and General) pp. 300-1
Goren's letter:
Honored Ministers! Your decision by which you forbid me, as an individual, and the Jews as a whole, from praying on the Temple Mount shocked me to the depths of my soul. Your decision means that the only place in the world in which an express and specific ban has been placed on the Jew, as a Jew, to pray, is Mount Moriah, the mount of the L-rd to which all of Israel's prayers are directed, the location of the nation's Holy of Holies...
From the destruction of the Second Temple until three hundred years ago, the prayers of Jews on the Temple Mount did not cease... The uniqueness of the Kotel (Western Wall) as a place of prayer is a historical innovation, and is not more than three hundred years old. It began after the decrees and limitations placed by the Muslim rulers on the Jews, and the abrogation of the 'synagogue' ... that had existed for centuries on the Temple Mount... In no manner or form is the Western Wall entitled to be a substitute for the Mount of the Lord. The prayers at the Wall symbolize the exile of the people and its expulsion from the Temple Mount, while our prayers on the Temple Mount represent the return of the people to its land and the place of its Temple. 'Who could conceive that Israel's security forces would be compelled to obstruct Jews from praying before the Lord, when the Temple Mount is under the government of Israel? And is this our situation now, after our dazzling victory? Is this what we waited for - that the government of Israel would discriminate between Jew and Muslim, and place guards lest, Heaven forbid, Jewish prayer would be uttered on the Temple Mount, about which the Prophets prophesied, 'For My House shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples' [Isaiah 56:7]? Jewish history shall not forgive us for this. 'My request is to open wide the gates of the Temple Mount to all Jews and for everyone in the world. Save the Holy of Holies of the nation, do not hand over the Temple Mount to those who defile it.
'Signed in grief, in hope, and in blessing, Shlomo Goren, General, Chief Rabbi of Israel.'"
In note 2 to temple mount western wall israeli law S. Berkowitz writes: Former Chief Rabbi S Goren believes that the Western Wall became a permanent Jewish prayer site in the 16th century.See Goren, S. The Temple Mount, Jerusalem 1992, p.4.
And, contrary to Sir Joseph above, there is no reference to Jewish prayer by the western wall in early rabbinic texts, as far as I'm aware. "To pray by the Wall is particularly beneficial" does not appear in the the Mishna or Talmud. Chesdovi ( talk) 16:01, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
References
http://www.pointoflaw.com/articles/The_Myth_of_the_Ford_Pinto_Case.pdf
A claque of editors at the Ford Pinto article would like to suppress virtually all mention of the above paper by a reasonably well known law professor. http://articles.latimes.com/2001/jul/30/local/me-28306
This article presents a revised view of the Pinto fuel tank case, in which, with hindsight destroys many of the exaggerated claims made by the Mother Jones article and various trial lawyers. It has been referred to in various other published sources eg http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/05/04/the-engineers-lament http://www.aurelbrudan.com/tag/business-ethics/ etc, all available via a google search.
Specific claims addressed by the paper include the number of deaths that actually occurred, the fact that the memo was not written about rear end impacts or the Pinto, the relative safety of Pinto compared with other cars.
Schwartz's study said:
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Greglocock ( talk) 00:51, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
That depends. If these "hundreds" of sources essentially flow from the same initial sources, it is quite possible for them to be all equally good, or equally bad; they are, in effect, only one source repeated. Anmccaff ( talk) 07:14, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
Hi, I added some information to a website and provided a source to www.catholic-hierarchy.org. I was told do not re-add the references since it was unreliable and if I disagree to make my case here. all the entries were either biographies of long deceased Roman Catholic bishops or listings of bishops on the diocese/archdiocese wikipage. This website has been used for years on English Wikipedia and has not been questioned by its contributors; and there are literally 1000s of Wikipedia articles using the reference. It is also heavily used by Wikipedia in other languages.
The reason for the removal is non-reliable source which I disagree with as there is ample support on the internet that it is reliable. It is also self-published but as I read it " Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." So I went out to get a variety of sources that cite the website which I would include sufficient third party publications. Thanks for your consideration.
catholic-hierarchy.org is recommended by several archdioceses and archdioceses and referenced by Vatican Radio
Several prominent Catholic church watchers and journalists have used catholic-hierarchy.org as a reference including:
Various libraries and similar organizations list catholic-hierarchy.org as a reference
Mainstream newspapers cite catholic-hierarchy.org as a resource
Catholic newspapers list catholic-hierarchy.org as a reference
Numerous books cite catholic-hierarchy.org in their bibliography
Numerous Catholic churches and schools cite catholic-hierarchy.org as a resource
A source might be incredibly factually accurate, but that doesn't necessarily make it a reliable source for wikipedia. For instance, the WP articles about high-concept physics subjects tend to be extremely accurate and very detailed, but we can't use them as a source for other pages, because it's user generated content. It's a matter of verifiability, not truth. If that website provides its sources, however, you can probably use those. Don't just copy their citations though, check them out and verify them , first. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 13:48, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
I do not believe it is accurate to describe catholic-hierarchy.org as unreliable or user-generated content. It is the reporting of facts from other sources, organized in a convenient and hyperlinked manner. Furthermore, if you were to look at the Sources/Bibliography section of the website ( [114]), you would notice sources such as the Annuario Pontificio Collection from 1914, 1921, 1924, 1927-1928, 1931, 1933, 1937-1938, 1941, 1949, 1950-1953, and 1955-2015. The Annuario Pontificio is the ultimate source for pages such as this, and cannot be considered unreliable. Vlaams243 ( talk) 23:54, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
I don't see a problem with the reliability of the site, since it's just a bunch of lists anyway. It is simple and convenient, as Vlaams says. The same is true for GigaCatholic, which is often used as a source here (and which I actually find more useful than Catholic-Hierarchy). Is it literally unreliable? Are there mistakes in it? If it's accurately reporting the information from its own sources, what does it matter? We could use those sources instead, I suppose, but why? What is a reliable source in this case? Adam Bishop ( talk) 02:05, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
Even though this discussion is whether or not Catholic Hierarchy is reliable, I would like to report my activites for WikiProject Catholicism articles. Since I joined Wikipedia in April 2014, I have completed assessments on thousands of WikiProject Catholicism articles. Here's what I have been doing:
* Opinion: From the perspective of a Wikipedia reader, it's my opinion that leaving this Self-published source template in place serves as a cautionary alert that the reference is not held to the same higher standard of a Reliable source. What would be helpful is a BOT that tags articles for every CH Reference with the Self-published source template. Regards, JoeHebda (talk) 02:12, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
Thought - I have read, studied and used the Catholic hierarchy website for many years, and I have no doubt it is a reliable source. In fact, I know the information it contains is reliable because it all comes from the Catholic Statistical yearbook Annuario Pontificio published by the Roman Catholic Church itself. I own several copies of this yearbook for various years, and the data is accurate. The trouble comes from the fact that the Vatican sells the yearbook and as far as I know there is no open source for this data, or even an online, easily accessible version of it for data crunching or easy access. Thus a vacuum is formed and people use this website instead of the yearbook itself, which cost 60$ and is printed in Italian paperback only. I am too close to this to render a definitive opinion about the website, but for this to be a Reliable Source for Wikipedia, we must at the least have strict assurances that all the facts and data are straight from the yearbook the church itself publishes. Otherwise, we must rely on those who have copies of the yearbook for reliable sourcing. Judgesurreal777 ( talk) 04:17, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
I take the Catholic Hierarchy site to be a "reliable source" under our normal usage of that term. The description of its publishing process doesn't make me shift that opinion. It has been pointed out that it provides reference material, rather than "original research", and from an authoritative source. If, in effect, it is an online version of a print publication that we would accept, this discussion seems overblown. Charles Matthews ( talk) 06:35, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
I can make some general observations about Catholic Hierarchy, as well as GCatholic. They both are reliable as long as they are based on reliable sources. Not all their sources are reliable. They are certainly very useful and highly reliable with regard to the recent appointments (I mean recent two centuries or so). They clearly base their data on official sources such as Annuario Pontificio. But deeper in the past, the things go worse. Miranda's website is a source for many data about cardinals in Catholic Hierarchy and GCatholic. Miranda's website, for 20th and 21 century is based mainly on the official reports of the Holy See, the best possible sources. For the centuries 13th to 19th it is based mainly on the nine volumes of Hierarchia Catholica by Eubel, Ritzler and Gauchat, which is generally a good source, but its earliest volumes (13th to 16th century) contain many errors. And for the period before 13th century, Miranda's website is completely unreliable (basing on outdated sources and contradicting modern prosopographies of the cardinals). Since Miranda is a source also for Catholic Hierarchy and GCatholic, the same can be told about them. In conclusion, all three websites are reliable for the most recent centuries, but with every earlier century, they became less and less reliable. CarlosPn ( talk) 18:50, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
There are several things to consider here. 1st, the number of references to it by experts of various types in the field seem to overcome the issue of WP:SPS. For a large part it isn't WP:SPS in the sense of WP:NOR as he is more of an editor/compiler of existing content than an originator. Tons of web content relies on a single editor and making all single-editor content fall under WP:SPS seems extreme. 2nd, it is, for most of it's content, a more accessible version of the source, the Annuario Pontificio which is a costly offline source. Even though, WP:SOURCEACCESS & WP:OFFLINE says offline sources are acceptable, I think the policy of WP:VERIFY would prefer an online version or reference were the content the same (for example, give me a link to a magazine article, not just the page number). Thus, I would argue to include at least the relatively modern content as reliable. I add 2 caveats: 1. someone mentioned issues with pre-1300 content here and I didn't study up on that enough. 2. If an error is found, I suggest posting on the talk page of that article to indicate that it is not reliable FOR THAT ARTICLE, and User_talk:Dcheney since he's indicated he's the editor and willing to fix issues. >> M.P.Schneider,LC ( parlemus • feci) 15:05, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
I added a discussion on the WP:VERIFY talk page in relation to this. I suggest a variation to the expert exemption for WP:SPS so it includes pages extensively used as references by 3rd parties as I think the 1st post in this change demonstrates. Link: Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability#.22Self-published.22_when_online_compilation_of_offline_sources. >> M.P.Schneider,LC ( parlemus • feci) 15:22, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
"A source might be incredibly factually accurate, but that doesn't necessarily make it a reliable source for Wikipedia". In this case, it's easy enough to establish verifiability. Does the content on the wiki match that in the Annuario Pontificado? Yes? Then it is up to Elizum to demonstrate instances in which the currently posted content is at variance. I've not seen any citations by Elizum where there is a discreprency, and I encourage him to take the time to do his homework. Benkenobi18 ( talk) 13:53, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
I need some advice - I'm working with an editor on the article for Draft:Our London Lives (2016 film). The article is a little light on sources. Most of the sources either didn't mention the film (were just used to verify data in the article) or they were routine notifications of events, primary sources, or were problematic in one way or another.
The strongest thing that the film has going for it was that it was displayed at the Museum of London, which is quite an achievement. It's supposed to be part of their permanent collections, but at this point in time the only thing that can be verified was that it was displayed. If it is part of their permanent collections then this by itself would likely be enough to assert notability under criteria 4 of WP:NFILM "The film was selected for preservation in a national archive." The museum isn't an archive, but it could argued to be its equivalent.
The film is still on display and hasn't been cataloged at this point in time from what I can see from the MoL's website, so here's my question: what can we do to verify that it's part of their collection? If the MoL was willing to send an email to WP:OTRS verifying that it was part of the permanent collections, would that suffice? Or could the museum just e-mail an admin and verify it that way? Or would a tweet suffice, as long as it came from an official account? The main thing I'm worried about is others being able to verify the source, as an OTRS ticket or tweet would be something that would be a bit more firm than if I were to get an e-mail from the MoL.
Pinging @ Amanda Paul: since it's her draft article. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 10:45, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
The museum have tweeted about its inclusion here https://twitter.com/MuseumofLondon/status/695257396134989824?lang=en Amanda Paul ( talk) 14:24, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
Could somebody have a look at the article on Igor Beuker as I don't think the references used are reliable. -- John ( Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 10:23, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
Dear users, as Andrew Lancaster has expressed the edit in concern requires a overview. The Ip is already blocked from editing for 1,5 days because of disruptive editing and edit warring with multiple Ip's. We need expert users on this. Do you know some users which can help us in the issue?
Here is what the paper states: "R1a1a-M17 diversity declines toward the Pontic-Caspian steppe where the mid-Holocene R1a1a7-M458 sublineage is dominant [46]. R1a1a7-M458 was absent in Afghanistan, suggesting that R1a1a-M17 does not support, as previously thought [47], expansions from the Pontic Steppe [3], bringing Indo-European languages to Central Asia and India." ( http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0034288)
-- Gushtasp ( talk) 09:30, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
In the transhumanist politics article, referring to politician Giuseppe Vatinno, it says, " New Scientist dubbed him 'the world's first transhumanist politician.' " The source for this is the title -- not the body -- of an article on the New Scientist website: "Meet the world's first transhumanist politician", which is an interview with the man. An editor removed this content, saying that it is unreliable and suggesting that this is because it uses the title -- which they consider to be clickbait -- instead of the body.
Is the title of a New Scientist web article a reliable source for simply quoting that title and attributing it to the publisher?
-- Haptic Feedback ( talk) 01:38, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
Hi, I wanted to restore the page Mathur Vaishya to its previous state which was based on the primary reference [115]. However, Sitush is banking very hard that primary sources are not acceptable for castes. I want to ask if it is true? If yes, why? Finding 3rd party sources for Indian caste system is very hard because of the nature of the subject and language barrier as well. Mr RD 19:41, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
I have another site to question - would BroadwayWorld.com be considered reliable? I've always questioned its usability and my first impulse is that it isn't, as the site sells tickets and runs as a job site. That makes it a little too close for comfort, since it'd be well within their best interest to cover things that they're selling. It's used a lot on Wikipedia and I do see it listed as a source in academic works like this one.
What's your take on this? It's certainly popular. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 10:14, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
My question is a general question regarding three different mediums of sources. As the section heading implies, how is the use of Banglapedia, Encyclopedia Brittanica and YouTube videos as WP:RS? Banglapedia seams like an exact replica of Wikipedia pages, although they claim that they have paid scholars working for them but no one knows the whereabouts of those scholars or their notability. Whenever a piece of content on a Wikipedia:WikiProject Bangladesh is lacking sources and a push comes for the sources, they shove Banglapedia in, because you are sure to find that content in there since its almost the exact replica. Same question for Encyclopedia Brittanica. As for videos, how is it to use videos as a source in general and also specifically from YouTube and what if it's a video from a major news channel. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 15:39, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
Guys, we have problem here [116], can you help a little bit? Some ukranian according to profile (seems not objective) moderator doesn't want to fix a mistake (propaganda) in article. DPR Poll Support discussion.
There is a discussion concerning English Democrats where, among other things, The Economist is proposed to be used as a source for the claim that the English Democrats are not a "far-right" party, because the newspaper published this correction to one previous article which claimed otherwise.
However, we know from the statement of a leader of the involved party that The Economist most likely received legal threats which led to their retractation. The same editor and party leader (as well as some of his colleagues) has been known for making legal threats against Wikipedia editors. That these editors actually are who they purport to be was proven by posts on party-affiliated blogs concerning the events on Wikipedia in which they were involved.
Given these facts, is the "correction" by The Economist to be considered a reliable source for the English Democrats' political position, considering we have ample reasons to suspect it was obtained by employing legal threats?
LjL ( talk) 19:17, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
If The Economist decided to retract (whether due to legal threats or otherwise) then we obviously can't use them as support for the claim any longer. But it's also not a positive claim on their behalf that the converse is true. Whether or not the retraction was made in response to a legal threat is beside the point; newspapers and magazines get such threats pretty frequently, and if they're willing to stand behind the story, they'll say "Okay, sue us then. We've got our facts straight, you'll lose." If, however, plenty of other reliable sources do still stand behind the characterization as "far right", then we'd still go with the consensus of sources. The Economist's statement should be considered, but it is not dispositive. Seraphimblade Talk to me 21:54, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
Seems at first sight to be a tertiary source for information and its website [118] states clearly:
It is being used quite extensively at the Harold Holt biography as a "catch-all" reference. I rather think that actual secondary sources should be used rather than using a single tertiary source for much of any article.
Opinions please? Should the biography seek actual secondary sources rather than rely so extensively on the ADB as the main source for details? Collect ( talk) 13:31, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
Would Epguides be a reliable source for airdates? - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 23:01, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 200 | Archive 201 | Archive 202 | Archive 203 | Archive 204 | Archive 205 | → | Archive 210 |
I'm curious whether there's any firm consensus on the use of live events as sources, providing that there's video evidence of said events. Note that I'm not asking about using videos of events as sources. Rather, I'm asking about using the event itself as a source, while simply providing a link to the video in the url field. The reason why I'm asking about this is that are a lot of YouTube videos out there, uploaded by non-professional channels, depicting events held by professional organizations. In the case of say, a Comic-Con panel, conventional practice would seem to treat the video of the panel as the source and the channel that uploaded the video as the publisher - but I find myself wondering whether one could simply treat the panel itself as the source and Comic-Con as the publisher. There's zero doubt of the validity of the information found in these sources, as we're hearing it straight from the horse's mouth (For example, practically speaking, a YouTube video of an actor at Comic-Con talking about his experience making a movie is every bit as reliable as him doing so on a DVD commentary). And there's also zero doubt that events like Comic-Con hold a considerable amount of credibility. If this were a YouTube video of an actor talking with a fan over coffee, that the fan then uploaded to his personal YouTube channel, then sure, that would hardly pass muster. But I fail to see why a professionally organized event couldn't be deemed as a "Reliable source". There actually was a brief discussion about this on the RS Noticeboard in the past - see here WP:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 122#Youtube videos of panels from conventions - but that conversation (from over three years ago) was focused on whether the video could be treated as a reliable source, rather than the event. I've also noticed that Template:Cite speech exists, and while that template states that any speeches used as sources must be "published or broadcast", it never technically specifies that the publisher or broadcaster need be a reliable source in its own right. In fact, the very first example given of how to use this template doesn't even include anything in the url field. It simply names the speech, the event and location at which the speech was given, the date on which the speech was given, and the person who gave the speech. Could we use this template (or create a similar template) for things like panel discussions? -- Jpcase ( talk) 16:31, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
This cite, while relevant, doesn't speak directly to the article's subject, let alone in the context that this reference suggests, within the lead of the article. I'm referring to WP:SYNTH and WP:Original Research, here. While I have tried to improve it without removing it, I am now being told it must be used as a direct quote. Given that this source doesn't even mention the subject in this citation, I question the "exact" context and weight it is given in the Lead Section on GSL. Darknipples ( talk) 21:59, 31 January 2016 (UTC) What do you think, Zwerg Nase? - Darknipples ( talk) 22:10, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
The quote also makes no mention of background checks, which is a core aspect concerning the article's subject. Darknipples ( talk) 00:23, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
Hi, can someone please verify if these sources are reliable or not? qubrex and GurgaonScoop are used continuously by a possible WP:COI editor to add negative content over Raheja Developers. Mr RD 05:44, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
Hi, I am new to this whole thing and I wanted to do a page about the first donut shop in my hometown. I want to vote against the policy of having verifiable information from other source. My hometown heritage guild does not have info on the donut shop and I am working with them to build a history. The donut shop was started by my grandparents in 1962 and is still there as a donut shop but has been run by various people since my grandparents sold it in the mid 70's. How can I make a page for the donut shop? This is a staple of generations of people from Livermore Ca. It is even used for the facebook page,...You know you're from Livermore if....
I would appreciate any advice and help anyone is willing to give.. Thanks, Leslie≈≈≈≈
Proper sourcing always depends on context; common sense and editorial judgment are an indispensable part of the process.and
The policy on sourcing is Wikipedia:Verifiability, which requires inline citations for any material challenged or likely to be challenged, and for all quotations.So, if there is a claim in an article that is not controversial and not stating anything harmful to any living or recently deceased person, then it's allowable according to the policy. People often think that sourcing is required for everything on Wikipedia but that's not actually the case. It's a process of challenge. If you are challenged on the notability then it can be removed. You also must be careful of conflict of interest. However, articles about towns often get a lot of material that is unsourced, and this is ok. It seems to be a culture of Wikipedia. There is the danger of too much "cruft" and clutter on hometown articles, but there's also the benefit of local knowledge by actual people. I like how it works. I do pare back my own hometown's page sometimes, a bit, but i certainly do not remove all unsourced statements -- that would be horribly unfriendly and counterproductive for the readers of Wikipedia, as well as mean to all the editors who added their own knowledge. SageRad ( talk) 16:43, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
I recently added the following to RT (TV network) (refs converted):
I want a link to the Tumblr blog in there, but as has already happened, some editors are likely to remove it with the "Tumblr isn't RS" argument. While I'm pretty sure it is acceptable as is, I'm interested ideas to make it less of a point of conflict. Trappedinburnley ( talk) 19:31, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fabian Benko is claiming that https://www.football.com/en/guardiola-pleased-with-teen-benko/ and http://bundesligafanatic.com/one-for-the-future-bayern-munichs-fabian-benko/ are neither long enough for GNG and the second is claimed to definitely not be a reliable source. A journalism student who has editorial oversight seems to meed RS. 208.81.212.224 ( talk) 19:50, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
disruptive editing – IP repeatedly inserting wild ( WP:Fringe) non- WP:RS claims. [7]. What to do? Zezen ( talk) 22:45, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
Thanks, Darkfrog24, as I do not talk to numbers. Please note that it is a hopping IP. Zezen ( talk) 07:04, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
User:Bad Dryer excised an important clarification of statutory rape in a footnote to the lead of Ezra Nawi here. The given reason was that the source was a blog.’rmv blog. This is a BLP’
The source is:
Alex Massie The Last of Mr Norris, The Spectator.
'Most of the coverage of the case that I’ve seen has hyped the "rape" aspect of the matter and downplayed the "statutory" part. And with good reason since, oft-forgotten in the subsequent brouhaha, this was, and was accepted as such by the Israeli court, an episode of consensual sex. People may still find this an unsavoury episode but the Israeli court plainly accepted that though in a technical sense a crime had been committed there was no malice involved and no real victim. If that had not been the case one would have expected Nawi to spend more than just a month in prison. But that’s what happened.'
I can’t see why a clarification from a leading journalist, with a mainstream curriculum, writing in a highly respected weekly, on the distinction between rape and statutory rape, infringes WP:BLP. Indeed I put it in because I think introducing, as this and several other editors have, sources with headlines screaming ‘rapist’ (which he most definitely was not) was a BLP violation. A regular page hosted by a major journal for a noted journalist is not what we exclude as a blog (personal page run by anyone).
Comments from experts on both WP:BLP and WP:RS are needed. Nishidani ( talk) 08:47, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
...this is a statement about his moral guilt...If there are any statements about 'moral guilt' in that article, they need to be removed right now. Commenting on an individual's morality is not WP's purview, and is a blatant violation of WP:BLP. It may also be Defamation. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 22:14, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
The letters to the Israeli court after Mr Nawi’s conviction for statutory rape in 1997, do not mention that the pair were former lovers.
false claim that "The Irish Independent articles fail consistently to distinguish rape from statutory rape." - the article clearly describes "Mr Nawi’s conviction for statutory rape in 1997"
There's a disagreement with respect to the usability of source material which is otherwise compliant with WP:RS, WP:NOTABLE, and our other guidelines for usable source material if it's hosted in the wikisource project. While I agree that unlocked wikisource material is like any other wiki, not stable, changeable by any editor, and not acceptable under WP:RS, what about wikisource material which has been locked per the wikisource protection policy?
I'm asking this because a template for citation of wikisource material in wikipedia articles exists, Template: Cite wikisource.
On the "Cite wikisource" template page, under Template Documentation, the template states:
That template also provides the scan parameter, described in the template thus:
I've been referred to WP:UGC, with the following exegesis of the guidelines:
However, those guidelines pertain to wikipedia articles "and other wikis."
The wikisource protection policy states, however:
It can be argued that this level of protection of a wikisource-hosted document is as secure as other similar sources we regard as usable for wikipedia article citations hosted elsewhere on the World Wide Web.
I'd like to stimulate discussion, preparatory to an RfC, on whether "locked" wikisource-hosted documents (as defined by the policy I just quoted) ought to be considered usable in wikipedia articles. This is a case where wikipedia's own guidelines and its internal documentation aren't consistent. loupgarous ( talk) 00:21, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
Two websites, milon.walla.co.il and globalresearch.org, are being used as the sources at Targeted killings by Israel Defense Forces to explain to readers that the term Targeted killing is also referred to as targeted prevention, focused foiling and extrajudicial assassination. In restoring those alternative names and the two sources mentioned above Debresser explained, "Restore sourced information. In addition, I am not sure terms need much sourcing."
Are these websites reliable sources for these alternative terms? And is Debresser correct that these terms may not "need much sourcing?" Help would be appreciated. - Darouet ( talk) 01:43, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
Source: [9]. For information about the publisher, [10] identifies the publisher as "Miss World Limited (registered in Jersey under Company no. 17598) ('MWL')".
Article (deleted): Tamar Nemsitsveridze
Content supported by the source:
1986 or 1987
1986 or 1987 (age 36–37)
Kutarsi
She studied at the American University for Humanities.
RSN request submitted by Unscintillating ( talk) 14:47, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
I am attempting to contribute to the controversial Electronic Harassment article and battling with the troubling fact that the person who coined the phrase has not been reported in mainstream media or anywhere else that I can find that would be regarded as a RS. However, there are many mainstream articles that use the term and as far as I can see they are accepting his definition of the term. The term has gone up there, but not the coiner of the term. He has popularized that term in radio interviews many on Coast to Coast AM, which I expect would not be regarded as a RS as they talk about conspiracy theories. He has been a guest 67 times since 2003. He has a website in which he has clearly defined the term in ways that do not involve a conspiracy theory. He only talks about "harassers" but does not speculate or theorize about who. It has however not been RS reviewed anywhere that I can find. His intro at Coast to Coast AM: "Biography: Roger Tolces is a Los Angeles private investigator who specializes in electronic countermeasures. In the past thirty years he has swept over 2500 locations for bugs and wiretaps. In recent years his business has included helping victims of electronic harassment and mind control. Electronic harassment takes place if someone uses any electronic device to aid them in invading your person or property for the purpose of gathering information illegally, or for the purpose of causing physical harm. Mr. Tolces uses over $100,000 of high-tech equipment to try to identify the sources of electronic harassment. Website:bugsweeps.com ." So, is there some way that I can put his definition of the term into the "electronic harassment" article? It seems the article gets a bit lost without the original definition of the term. Jed Stuart ( talk) 05:01, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
References
According to link search [12] bodybuilding.com is linked to 350 times. Is it a reliable source? Are we being spammed by "an American online retailer based in Boise, Idaho, specializing in dietary supplements, sports supplements, and bodybuilding supplements"? -- Guy Macon ( talk) 15:29, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
I'm posting here about Vents Magazine. Offhand it does seem like it's used on Wikipedia, but I can't really verify its editorial oversight or any of the other material. The website doesn't really give off the greatest impression in places, given that they have somewhat broken html in places like "[contact_form]" that doesn't go to any contact form and stuff like this "Rafa[symposium-profile][symposium-forum][symposium-members][symposium-mail]". The site is mentioned in a few places like Under the Gun Review, but I'm not finding a huge-huge amount out there to where I'd be comfortable with this given the situation.
What I'd need to know is if these interviews could be considered usable as a reliable source to establish notability. The reason for this is that there have been issues with the article for Rita Pam Tarachi, one of the most major of which is a pretty serious lack of notability. If these are usable these would be the first in-depth sources for the article, as everything else is trivial, primary, or unreliable for various reasons. (IE, self-published sources, etc. One is a review via a website that accepts payment for "expedited" reviews and refuses to give anything less than 4 stars.)
If anyone wants to help out with the article as a whole, feel free. I'm aware that it can sometimes be difficult to find sourcing for other countries like Nigeria, but there seems to be a pretty big lack of sourcing overall at times. This one looks like it can go either way. There have been some attempts to get the article creator to help find better sources, but they don't appear to be entirely helpful in that aspect and they have tried to insist that some of the dodgy sourcing is usable, despite attempts to explain why the sourcing is problematic. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 05:31, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
Is this considered a reliable source of news? Its seems pretty horrifically biased to me. - Jack Sebastian ( talk) 15:07, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
Hi. Is this source reliable as a source for this addition to the Saga (comic book) article? One of the reasons why I ask is that when I look at the site's staff page, it's 14 pages long, with 10 writers on each page. Also, when clicking on the "About" link at the top of the site's pages, one of the sublinks is "Pitch to Us".
I've also noticed, when doing a search here on WP, that that site is cited as a source in five other articles. The five passages in those articles in which it is cited are as follows. Each link directs to the passage in the Wikipedia article in question, and the type of info for which it is cited is presented as the text of the external link:
So is it reliable? Nightscream ( talk) 14:45, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
Hi there, I'm trying to improve Draft:TopSpeed.com to increase the number of references that are about the publication itself rather than the publication's content. I found this source that seems to hit the spot, being a third-party review of the website, but I'm not sure how reliable it is. Looking forward for any advice, thanks! WikiAlexandra ( talk) 10:23, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
Article: ExxonMobil climate change controversy
ExxonMobil researchers have published dozens of academic papers on the effects of fossil fuel emissions and the associated risks to society; ExxonMobil claims more than 50 peer reviewed papers on climate research and policy between 1980 and 2015.
In an email, Exxon spokesman Richard D. Keil said he would no longer respond to inquiries from InsideClimate News, and added, "ExxonMobil scientists have been involved in climate research and related policy analysis for more than 30 years, yielding more than 50 papers in peer-reviewed publications."
Company scientists have contributed to dozens of scientific papers that supported this view and explored the extent of the risks.
Between 1980 and 2015, Exxon and ExxonMobil researchers and academic collaborators published more than 50 peer reviewed papers on climate research and climate policy.
In an email, Exxon spokesman Richard D. Keil said he would no longer respond to inquiries from InsideClimate News, and added, "ExxonMobil scientists have been involved in climate research and related policy analysis for more than 30 years, yielding more than 50 papers in peer-reviewed publications."(emphasis added)
Attempted resolution at article talk: Talk:ExxonMobil_climate_change_controversy#February_2016_OVERCITE_issues
Additional related primary source:
{{
cite web}}
: Invalid |ref=harv
(
help) (Exxon compiled bibliography)Comment: When sources conflict or may appear to conflict, include the conflict. Secondary sources are preferred to primary. Independent sources are preferred to self-published sources. Respectfully request feedback on alternative sourcing and summarizations. Thank you. Hugh ( talk) 18:46, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
So far, two editors support deference to secondary sources over sources with a conflict of interest. Any other comments? Thank you. Hugh ( talk) 17:58, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
Thus far three editors have expressed a preference for the first alternative summarization above, based on our project's preference for secondary over primary sources, and independent over self-published, and one expressed preference for the second alternative. Any other new voices? Thank you! Hugh ( talk) 08:20, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
I was wondering if somebody could cast an eye over Bones (season 11). The article uses a number of citations from unverified Twitter accounts and discussion forums like http://disqus.com. {{ cite tweet}} is used 7 times and disqus.com is used 8 times. I tried removing one of these sources but it was reverted, twice now. [17] [18] One of the editors who reverted me was also involved in the addition of WP:SYNTH at List of Better Call Saul episodes [19] [20] and the ensuing discussion on the talk page there, so simply removing the offending citations there will only start an edit war. -- AussieLegend ( ✉) 19:17, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
I've now tagged the unreliable discussion forum citations, [21] and tweets, [22] but would still appreciate a second (or third or fourth) opinion. I did have to remove one completely, [23] as it was not from the person who it claimed to be from, as can be seen by trying to verify the citation:
-- AussieLegend ( ✉) 17:06, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
OK, since nobody seems interested in actually looking at the article, perhaps somebody could answer a simple question: Are the following tweets acceptable sources?
-- AussieLegend ( ✉) 05:00, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
Tweets are largely not acceptable as sources. Tweets and other self-published material may sometimes be acceptable, if the conditions specified at
WP:SPS or
WP:TWITTER are met. For further information, see the
Wikipedia:Verifiability policy and the
Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources guideline. |
"unverified accounts belonging to mere staff members can't really be taken as authoritative"says who?
"As somebody not very high on the totem pole, they probably aren't privy to the higher level decisions" how would you know that and what does that have to do with anything? They're some not assistant or someone who works for craft service, they're a writer for the series. There's nothing in WP:SPS or WP:TWITTER that says a Twitter account has to be verified, as long as it meets the requirements, which it does. There's nothing to suggest that the information being provided in anything but accurate. She posts images of script pages, on-set photos, production meetings, etc. The official Bones Twitter retweets her, she followed by Bones creator Hart Hanson, and Bones actors including Emily Deschanel, John Boyd, and Tamara Taylor–all verified accounts. Every time we've used her as a source for an upcoming episode for Bones (season 11), it has been correct, obviously. I went back and found her Tweets for episode title reveals for episodes that have already been aired, thus the information in then can be verified: episode 1 (of which includes replies by the official Bones Twitter), episode 2, episode 3, episode 5, episode 6, episode 10. Again, there is nothing to suggest the information being provided is false or not authentic, because she is proven to be reliable and correct. Please apply some common sense here. Drovethrughosts ( talk) 21:22, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
They're some not assistant or someone who works for craft service, they're a writer for the series.- You're assuming that they are a writer. As WP:SPS says,
Anyone can create a personal web page ... and also claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason ... Internet forum postings, and social media postings, are largely not acceptable as sources.-- AussieLegend ( ✉) 07:50, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
When I say that some reasonable investigation is appropriate before using a Twitter account, I mean things like whether the account is retweeted by or otherwise clearly has the confidence of something official, whether it is attributed to an expert (a writer for a show is an expert on that show), etc. I'd say Drovethrughosts has done this investigation, and my take is that the Twitter account is usable with caution per WP:SPS unless some specific reason to doubt its veracity should emerge. Darkfrog24 ( talk) 17:20, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
{{
Television episode ratings}}
includes. Ratings have been discussed on numerous occasions, including when we added a section on series overview tables to the MOS (see
this discussion).|work=
field, but the citations link to disqus, which is just forum type posts. Any reader without intricate knowledge is only going to see these as discussion forum posts, especially when the url includes the word "discussion". Even assuming that somebody can work out that the author is SonOfTheBronx, looking at the
SonOfTheBronx disqus page provides no indication that Douglas Pucci = SonOfTheBronx. Following a link to "Programming Insider" from that page sends you to https://disqus.com/home/forum/programminginsider, which is clearly a discussion forum on disqus. Despite protestations to the contrary, these are all forums meant for discussions. "Disqus" is not a misspelling of "
discus", it's a play on "
discuss". The
homepage includes the explanations "Great discussions are happening here" and "Disqus offers publishers the best tools in the universe to power discussions". Let's get rid of this silly notion that these "comments" sections are not discussion forums, when they clearly are. --
AussieLegend (
✉) 04:37, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
A few things: 1) Neither I nor anyone else at this noticeboard gets to decide this issue. It's not binding arbitration. We're just adding our voices because at least one of you thought more voices were needed. 2) My own take is that if SonoftheBronx has been concretely identified as Douglas Pucci, and if Pucci is reliable then comments that he leaves in response to readers in articles that he wrote can sometimes be used if they're straightforward. This seems to be one of those times. 3) The issue is whether Pucci is reliable. So the question is this: Did those previous RfCs deal with Pucci specifically? Was there anything wrong or missing?
The other question: Is there anywhere else we could get this information that would not involve all this controversy? I think that discussing sources on RSN is a perfectly valid way to spend one's time and energy—if it doesn't produce results for this content then everyone involved gets more familiar with the policies for next time—but would reinvesting any of it in further searching be more helpful?
Hang on... Darkfrog24 ( talk) 21:46, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
I'll address the other points because they seem to need it, to improve your approach to these matters, even if this particular case doesn't require these notes. As for even SonOfTheBronx's own blog material at ProgrammingInsider.com: Unless his work on those posts is subject to the same level of editorial control as articles at a newspaper, it's a low-quality primary source that must be used "with caution" if at all, as a matter of policy. It doesn't matter how popular and well-regarded the site is. Thirdly, if SonOfTheBronx's comments about the Nielsen ratings cannot be verified with an RS, they are in fact simply that commenter's opinion. Anyone can say "according to The Huffington Post's "Intelligence Community" section and The New York Times' "U.S. Intelligence Community News section", the NSA and MI-6 have confirmed space aliens have spies in almost every country" (a claim with two secondary and two primary sources of high reliability); if we can find no such news articles or agency/ministry press releases, it's just Internet noise we cannot cite as a source (exception: if the claim itself were notable, e.g. for causing an Orson Welles, War of the Worlds-style panic, then it could be cited as a primary source for its own wording, date, and by-line). If SonOfTheBronx's Nielsen Ratings source is real, we should be able to find that (these ratings are published), and cite it. There is no need to ever even try to cite that blog comment, either way. Please do your homework about policy before telling others to do theirs about some website. Our policies are written to address general classes of circumstance, so that we don't have agonize over particular cases as if there's no precedent for how to handle them. :-) — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 14:35, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
Sorry. I should have thought of this days ago. I searched for Bones ratings and found this TVseriesfinale.com and then I found this by searching for "Bones" and "6.197" tvratings.telekomanda.com tviv.org. These sources do not meet our expert criteria, but the information that they contain contradicts what we see in the DISQUS comment. Searches for "Bones" and "8.618" to corroborate SonoftheBronx's figures produced only forums. Regardless of whether Pucci is reliable in general, and even experts can make mistakes, the accuracy of this specific content is now in question. Determining whether or not he has expert status is not just a formality. I'd say "don't use." Darkfrog24 ( talk) 22:10, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
uses sources directly linked to the ULC and published by the ULC.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/12/fashion/weddings/12FIELD.html?_r=0 specifically states the famous people are claimed by the ULC, not they are ministers as a statement of fact
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/12/fashion/weddings/12FIELD.html?_r=0 has Glenn Beck making an apparent joke about the ULC - as he is a LDS member, I think this must be interpreted in a manner other than as seriously being connected to the ULC
"The Modesto messiah: The famous mail-order minister" published by the ULC is used as a source for famous persons being members and ministers. In the case at hand, is this SPS a reliable source for claims about membership and ordinations?
http://www.presstelegram.com/20131009/how-we-totally-screwed-up-a-marriage-with-a-wee-error mentions the ULC claims - then notes the ministership was not valid for the writer (anecdote)
http://thedevilanddanvojir.blogspot.ca/2009_07_02_archive.html is a blog - which also attributes the "famous names" to the ... ULC
And on and on and on. (like "bustle.com" etc.)
Labeling any person as having a specific "religion" is problematic in itself, but using any SPS to label a person as an "ordained minister" of that religion should be at least as problematic. The question is -- are there any actual "reliable sources" in that entire "list" that the famous people are or were "ordained ministers" in that church? Many thanks. Collect ( talk) 19:02, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
At the Western Wall#Jewish section there is a quote attributed to Shlomo Goren (Chief Rabbi of the IDF, Chief Rabbi of Israel, so not a light weight as far as being a scholar, etc.) He wrote that the tradition to pray at the Western Wall is only about 300 years old. [1]
The problem is that this is factually incorrect. See the very same article: Western_Wall#Prayer_at_the_Wall and some highlights:
So, do we keep the Goren quote and just mark it with something? Do we not include the quote? It is a notable quote because Goren is notable but it is not factual and it also not a reliable source since it clearly goes against the factual evidence. Sir Joseph (talk) 18:38, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
Whether or not rabbis contradict the Talmud is irrelevant, in this case the Talmud says we pray to the Wall because that's the last remnant of the Temple. It's a factual statement. It's not a question of what ruling and then we have a disagreement. As for rabbis disagreeing, no, if there is no factual disagreeing in the Talmud, you won't have rabbis disagreeing and certainly not a 20th Century one there are rules for that. And allow me to correct myself, it's not actually in the Talmud, it predates it, it's in the Mishna which is even earlier and it is undisputed, there is no Talmud on that tractate. "According to the Mishna, of all the four walls of the Temple Mount, the Western Wall was the closest to the Holy of Holies,[123] and therefore that to pray by the Wall is particularly beneficial." [5] After all that, I have to say it's really dubious if he said it. Like I said before I've never heard this 300 year business before. The Wall was THE place to pray. Sir Joseph (talk) 23:29, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
"In front of this place is the Western Wall, which is one of the walls of the Holy of Holies. This is called the Gate of Mercy.
So Sir Joseph is citing wikipedia’s bad content, with 3 sources that do not sustain the contention, being references to a synagogue near the WW, or to a confusion of the Western Wall with the Eastern Wall site, or a forgery. This is done to challenge a reference by an authority on the wall, Shlomo Goren, in an eminently good secondary source. Jews prayed all round Jerusalem, and the Temple Mount and its recent sanctification as the only site for a millenial observance is just POV pushing to suit a post-1967 political agenda, which retroactively strives to justify its new centrality by asserting what is not proven. This is absurd. If anything, that section’s 3 citations to ‘prove’ Jewish worship at the Wall before the 15th century should be reworked to fix the errors noted above. It cannot be used to discredit Shlomo Goren’s judgement. Sir Joseph is using Wikipedia as a reliable source to challenge what an external reliable source cites as an authoritative rabbinical opinion. That turns the whole method of Wikipedia on its head. Nishidani ( talk) 13:16, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
FWIW, the Goren source states that he agrees the wall was a prayer site (as was the Temple Mount) until the Ottoman restrictions left only one site available for Jewish prayer -- the reason for his pronouncement, moreover, was in the context of him supporting building of a synagogue on an added part of the Temple Mount. As this gives context to the "300 years" quote, the full context should be given. Collect ( talk) 13:08, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
There is a lot of confusion over details here. The entire west wall of the Temple Mount is very long but the part of it called the Western Wall/Wailing Wall/Kotel is quite short. I'll apply capitalisation carefully to distinguish. There are old writings about the west wall in general, such as in the Misha, but there are not any pre-medieval writings that clearly identify the Western Wall as a special place for prayer. Many authors feed this confusion by adding capital letters to "western wall" in old writings when the originals have no such indication. To address the Misha, it says that of the four walls of the mount the west wall is the one closest to the "holy of holies", but that doesn't support the Western Wall being a special place because it is quite far south from the most likely location of the "holy of holies" (namely, where the Dome of the Rock is now). The first sources that might refer to the region of the Western Wall are from the Fatmid period, where a few surviving letters refer to a cave used for prayer somewhere in that general area. Moshe Gil suggested it was located in the passage behind Barclay's Gate (at the south end of the Western Wall, long since sealed up), but more recent authors prefer Warren's Gate to the north of the Western Wall. About Goren, although he probably had the facts at his fingertips, he was extremely biased and would have said whatever suited him. In 1967 he tried to convince the local IDF commander to blow up all the Islamic buildings on the Mount; that's a fair summary of his nature. Zero talk 22:01, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
There is no reason not to include Goren within proper context. The text from Jerusalem: A City and Its Future:
Goren also tried to explain that the tradition of the Western Wall as a Jewish prayer site is only three hundred years old and had its origins in restrictions imposed by the Ottoman authorities on Jewish worship elsewhere in the Temple Mount area. “We cannot claim rights at the Western Wall,” Goren wrote to PM Yitzchak Rabin in August 1994. “Its sanctity lies entirely in the fact that it demarcates the Temple Mount, in being a substitute for the Mount of the Lord… As for the haredi rabbis, whose lack of topographic and halakhic knowledge makes them afraid to ascend the Temple Mount and worship there — good luck to them. But we and the entire nation should be permitted to pray freely on the Temple Mount and the Muslims given free access and control of their mosques" (qtd. in Shragai 1994a).
Another source:
For Rabbi Goren, the Western Wall, at which Jews had prayed at for only 300 years, was an extremely important, but nonetheless, secondary, sight. The heart of Jewish longing for 2,000 years was not the Western Wall, but the Beit HaMikdash on Har Habayit, the Temple on the Temple Mount. P. 69 ( Rabbi Shlomo Goren: Torah Sage and General) pp. 300-1
Goren's letter:
Honored Ministers! Your decision by which you forbid me, as an individual, and the Jews as a whole, from praying on the Temple Mount shocked me to the depths of my soul. Your decision means that the only place in the world in which an express and specific ban has been placed on the Jew, as a Jew, to pray, is Mount Moriah, the mount of the L-rd to which all of Israel's prayers are directed, the location of the nation's Holy of Holies...
From the destruction of the Second Temple until three hundred years ago, the prayers of Jews on the Temple Mount did not cease... The uniqueness of the Kotel (Western Wall) as a place of prayer is a historical innovation, and is not more than three hundred years old. It began after the decrees and limitations placed by the Muslim rulers on the Jews, and the abrogation of the 'synagogue' ... that had existed for centuries on the Temple Mount... In no manner or form is the Western Wall entitled to be a substitute for the Mount of the Lord. The prayers at the Wall symbolize the exile of the people and its expulsion from the Temple Mount, while our prayers on the Temple Mount represent the return of the people to its land and the place of its Temple. 'Who could conceive that Israel's security forces would be compelled to obstruct Jews from praying before the Lord, when the Temple Mount is under the government of Israel? And is this our situation now, after our dazzling victory? Is this what we waited for - that the government of Israel would discriminate between Jew and Muslim, and place guards lest, Heaven forbid, Jewish prayer would be uttered on the Temple Mount, about which the Prophets prophesied, 'For My House shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples' [Isaiah 56:7]? Jewish history shall not forgive us for this. 'My request is to open wide the gates of the Temple Mount to all Jews and for everyone in the world. Save the Holy of Holies of the nation, do not hand over the Temple Mount to those who defile it.
'Signed in grief, in hope, and in blessing, Shlomo Goren, General, Chief Rabbi of Israel.'"
In note 2 to temple mount western wall israeli law S. Berkowitz writes: Former Chief Rabbi S Goren believes that the Western Wall became a permanent Jewish prayer site in the 16th century.See Goren, S. The Temple Mount, Jerusalem 1992, p.4.
And, contrary to Sir Joseph above, there is no reference to Jewish prayer by the western wall in early rabbinic texts, as far as I'm aware. "To pray by the Wall is particularly beneficial" does not appear in the the Mishna or Talmud. Chesdovi ( talk) 16:01, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
References
http://www.pointoflaw.com/articles/The_Myth_of_the_Ford_Pinto_Case.pdf
A claque of editors at the Ford Pinto article would like to suppress virtually all mention of the above paper by a reasonably well known law professor. http://articles.latimes.com/2001/jul/30/local/me-28306
This article presents a revised view of the Pinto fuel tank case, in which, with hindsight destroys many of the exaggerated claims made by the Mother Jones article and various trial lawyers. It has been referred to in various other published sources eg http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/05/04/the-engineers-lament http://www.aurelbrudan.com/tag/business-ethics/ etc, all available via a google search.
Specific claims addressed by the paper include the number of deaths that actually occurred, the fact that the memo was not written about rear end impacts or the Pinto, the relative safety of Pinto compared with other cars.
Schwartz's study said:
−
−
−
Greglocock ( talk) 00:51, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
That depends. If these "hundreds" of sources essentially flow from the same initial sources, it is quite possible for them to be all equally good, or equally bad; they are, in effect, only one source repeated. Anmccaff ( talk) 07:14, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
Hi, I added some information to a website and provided a source to www.catholic-hierarchy.org. I was told do not re-add the references since it was unreliable and if I disagree to make my case here. all the entries were either biographies of long deceased Roman Catholic bishops or listings of bishops on the diocese/archdiocese wikipage. This website has been used for years on English Wikipedia and has not been questioned by its contributors; and there are literally 1000s of Wikipedia articles using the reference. It is also heavily used by Wikipedia in other languages.
The reason for the removal is non-reliable source which I disagree with as there is ample support on the internet that it is reliable. It is also self-published but as I read it " Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." So I went out to get a variety of sources that cite the website which I would include sufficient third party publications. Thanks for your consideration.
catholic-hierarchy.org is recommended by several archdioceses and archdioceses and referenced by Vatican Radio
Several prominent Catholic church watchers and journalists have used catholic-hierarchy.org as a reference including:
Various libraries and similar organizations list catholic-hierarchy.org as a reference
Mainstream newspapers cite catholic-hierarchy.org as a resource
Catholic newspapers list catholic-hierarchy.org as a reference
Numerous books cite catholic-hierarchy.org in their bibliography
Numerous Catholic churches and schools cite catholic-hierarchy.org as a resource
A source might be incredibly factually accurate, but that doesn't necessarily make it a reliable source for wikipedia. For instance, the WP articles about high-concept physics subjects tend to be extremely accurate and very detailed, but we can't use them as a source for other pages, because it's user generated content. It's a matter of verifiability, not truth. If that website provides its sources, however, you can probably use those. Don't just copy their citations though, check them out and verify them , first. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 13:48, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
I do not believe it is accurate to describe catholic-hierarchy.org as unreliable or user-generated content. It is the reporting of facts from other sources, organized in a convenient and hyperlinked manner. Furthermore, if you were to look at the Sources/Bibliography section of the website ( [114]), you would notice sources such as the Annuario Pontificio Collection from 1914, 1921, 1924, 1927-1928, 1931, 1933, 1937-1938, 1941, 1949, 1950-1953, and 1955-2015. The Annuario Pontificio is the ultimate source for pages such as this, and cannot be considered unreliable. Vlaams243 ( talk) 23:54, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
I don't see a problem with the reliability of the site, since it's just a bunch of lists anyway. It is simple and convenient, as Vlaams says. The same is true for GigaCatholic, which is often used as a source here (and which I actually find more useful than Catholic-Hierarchy). Is it literally unreliable? Are there mistakes in it? If it's accurately reporting the information from its own sources, what does it matter? We could use those sources instead, I suppose, but why? What is a reliable source in this case? Adam Bishop ( talk) 02:05, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
Even though this discussion is whether or not Catholic Hierarchy is reliable, I would like to report my activites for WikiProject Catholicism articles. Since I joined Wikipedia in April 2014, I have completed assessments on thousands of WikiProject Catholicism articles. Here's what I have been doing:
* Opinion: From the perspective of a Wikipedia reader, it's my opinion that leaving this Self-published source template in place serves as a cautionary alert that the reference is not held to the same higher standard of a Reliable source. What would be helpful is a BOT that tags articles for every CH Reference with the Self-published source template. Regards, JoeHebda (talk) 02:12, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
Thought - I have read, studied and used the Catholic hierarchy website for many years, and I have no doubt it is a reliable source. In fact, I know the information it contains is reliable because it all comes from the Catholic Statistical yearbook Annuario Pontificio published by the Roman Catholic Church itself. I own several copies of this yearbook for various years, and the data is accurate. The trouble comes from the fact that the Vatican sells the yearbook and as far as I know there is no open source for this data, or even an online, easily accessible version of it for data crunching or easy access. Thus a vacuum is formed and people use this website instead of the yearbook itself, which cost 60$ and is printed in Italian paperback only. I am too close to this to render a definitive opinion about the website, but for this to be a Reliable Source for Wikipedia, we must at the least have strict assurances that all the facts and data are straight from the yearbook the church itself publishes. Otherwise, we must rely on those who have copies of the yearbook for reliable sourcing. Judgesurreal777 ( talk) 04:17, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
I take the Catholic Hierarchy site to be a "reliable source" under our normal usage of that term. The description of its publishing process doesn't make me shift that opinion. It has been pointed out that it provides reference material, rather than "original research", and from an authoritative source. If, in effect, it is an online version of a print publication that we would accept, this discussion seems overblown. Charles Matthews ( talk) 06:35, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
I can make some general observations about Catholic Hierarchy, as well as GCatholic. They both are reliable as long as they are based on reliable sources. Not all their sources are reliable. They are certainly very useful and highly reliable with regard to the recent appointments (I mean recent two centuries or so). They clearly base their data on official sources such as Annuario Pontificio. But deeper in the past, the things go worse. Miranda's website is a source for many data about cardinals in Catholic Hierarchy and GCatholic. Miranda's website, for 20th and 21 century is based mainly on the official reports of the Holy See, the best possible sources. For the centuries 13th to 19th it is based mainly on the nine volumes of Hierarchia Catholica by Eubel, Ritzler and Gauchat, which is generally a good source, but its earliest volumes (13th to 16th century) contain many errors. And for the period before 13th century, Miranda's website is completely unreliable (basing on outdated sources and contradicting modern prosopographies of the cardinals). Since Miranda is a source also for Catholic Hierarchy and GCatholic, the same can be told about them. In conclusion, all three websites are reliable for the most recent centuries, but with every earlier century, they became less and less reliable. CarlosPn ( talk) 18:50, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
There are several things to consider here. 1st, the number of references to it by experts of various types in the field seem to overcome the issue of WP:SPS. For a large part it isn't WP:SPS in the sense of WP:NOR as he is more of an editor/compiler of existing content than an originator. Tons of web content relies on a single editor and making all single-editor content fall under WP:SPS seems extreme. 2nd, it is, for most of it's content, a more accessible version of the source, the Annuario Pontificio which is a costly offline source. Even though, WP:SOURCEACCESS & WP:OFFLINE says offline sources are acceptable, I think the policy of WP:VERIFY would prefer an online version or reference were the content the same (for example, give me a link to a magazine article, not just the page number). Thus, I would argue to include at least the relatively modern content as reliable. I add 2 caveats: 1. someone mentioned issues with pre-1300 content here and I didn't study up on that enough. 2. If an error is found, I suggest posting on the talk page of that article to indicate that it is not reliable FOR THAT ARTICLE, and User_talk:Dcheney since he's indicated he's the editor and willing to fix issues. >> M.P.Schneider,LC ( parlemus • feci) 15:05, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
I added a discussion on the WP:VERIFY talk page in relation to this. I suggest a variation to the expert exemption for WP:SPS so it includes pages extensively used as references by 3rd parties as I think the 1st post in this change demonstrates. Link: Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability#.22Self-published.22_when_online_compilation_of_offline_sources. >> M.P.Schneider,LC ( parlemus • feci) 15:22, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
"A source might be incredibly factually accurate, but that doesn't necessarily make it a reliable source for Wikipedia". In this case, it's easy enough to establish verifiability. Does the content on the wiki match that in the Annuario Pontificado? Yes? Then it is up to Elizum to demonstrate instances in which the currently posted content is at variance. I've not seen any citations by Elizum where there is a discreprency, and I encourage him to take the time to do his homework. Benkenobi18 ( talk) 13:53, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
I need some advice - I'm working with an editor on the article for Draft:Our London Lives (2016 film). The article is a little light on sources. Most of the sources either didn't mention the film (were just used to verify data in the article) or they were routine notifications of events, primary sources, or were problematic in one way or another.
The strongest thing that the film has going for it was that it was displayed at the Museum of London, which is quite an achievement. It's supposed to be part of their permanent collections, but at this point in time the only thing that can be verified was that it was displayed. If it is part of their permanent collections then this by itself would likely be enough to assert notability under criteria 4 of WP:NFILM "The film was selected for preservation in a national archive." The museum isn't an archive, but it could argued to be its equivalent.
The film is still on display and hasn't been cataloged at this point in time from what I can see from the MoL's website, so here's my question: what can we do to verify that it's part of their collection? If the MoL was willing to send an email to WP:OTRS verifying that it was part of the permanent collections, would that suffice? Or could the museum just e-mail an admin and verify it that way? Or would a tweet suffice, as long as it came from an official account? The main thing I'm worried about is others being able to verify the source, as an OTRS ticket or tweet would be something that would be a bit more firm than if I were to get an e-mail from the MoL.
Pinging @ Amanda Paul: since it's her draft article. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 10:45, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
The museum have tweeted about its inclusion here https://twitter.com/MuseumofLondon/status/695257396134989824?lang=en Amanda Paul ( talk) 14:24, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
Could somebody have a look at the article on Igor Beuker as I don't think the references used are reliable. -- John ( Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 10:23, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
Dear users, as Andrew Lancaster has expressed the edit in concern requires a overview. The Ip is already blocked from editing for 1,5 days because of disruptive editing and edit warring with multiple Ip's. We need expert users on this. Do you know some users which can help us in the issue?
Here is what the paper states: "R1a1a-M17 diversity declines toward the Pontic-Caspian steppe where the mid-Holocene R1a1a7-M458 sublineage is dominant [46]. R1a1a7-M458 was absent in Afghanistan, suggesting that R1a1a-M17 does not support, as previously thought [47], expansions from the Pontic Steppe [3], bringing Indo-European languages to Central Asia and India." ( http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0034288)
-- Gushtasp ( talk) 09:30, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
In the transhumanist politics article, referring to politician Giuseppe Vatinno, it says, " New Scientist dubbed him 'the world's first transhumanist politician.' " The source for this is the title -- not the body -- of an article on the New Scientist website: "Meet the world's first transhumanist politician", which is an interview with the man. An editor removed this content, saying that it is unreliable and suggesting that this is because it uses the title -- which they consider to be clickbait -- instead of the body.
Is the title of a New Scientist web article a reliable source for simply quoting that title and attributing it to the publisher?
-- Haptic Feedback ( talk) 01:38, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
Hi, I wanted to restore the page Mathur Vaishya to its previous state which was based on the primary reference [115]. However, Sitush is banking very hard that primary sources are not acceptable for castes. I want to ask if it is true? If yes, why? Finding 3rd party sources for Indian caste system is very hard because of the nature of the subject and language barrier as well. Mr RD 19:41, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
I have another site to question - would BroadwayWorld.com be considered reliable? I've always questioned its usability and my first impulse is that it isn't, as the site sells tickets and runs as a job site. That makes it a little too close for comfort, since it'd be well within their best interest to cover things that they're selling. It's used a lot on Wikipedia and I do see it listed as a source in academic works like this one.
What's your take on this? It's certainly popular. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 10:14, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
My question is a general question regarding three different mediums of sources. As the section heading implies, how is the use of Banglapedia, Encyclopedia Brittanica and YouTube videos as WP:RS? Banglapedia seams like an exact replica of Wikipedia pages, although they claim that they have paid scholars working for them but no one knows the whereabouts of those scholars or their notability. Whenever a piece of content on a Wikipedia:WikiProject Bangladesh is lacking sources and a push comes for the sources, they shove Banglapedia in, because you are sure to find that content in there since its almost the exact replica. Same question for Encyclopedia Brittanica. As for videos, how is it to use videos as a source in general and also specifically from YouTube and what if it's a video from a major news channel. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 15:39, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
Guys, we have problem here [116], can you help a little bit? Some ukranian according to profile (seems not objective) moderator doesn't want to fix a mistake (propaganda) in article. DPR Poll Support discussion.
There is a discussion concerning English Democrats where, among other things, The Economist is proposed to be used as a source for the claim that the English Democrats are not a "far-right" party, because the newspaper published this correction to one previous article which claimed otherwise.
However, we know from the statement of a leader of the involved party that The Economist most likely received legal threats which led to their retractation. The same editor and party leader (as well as some of his colleagues) has been known for making legal threats against Wikipedia editors. That these editors actually are who they purport to be was proven by posts on party-affiliated blogs concerning the events on Wikipedia in which they were involved.
Given these facts, is the "correction" by The Economist to be considered a reliable source for the English Democrats' political position, considering we have ample reasons to suspect it was obtained by employing legal threats?
LjL ( talk) 19:17, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
If The Economist decided to retract (whether due to legal threats or otherwise) then we obviously can't use them as support for the claim any longer. But it's also not a positive claim on their behalf that the converse is true. Whether or not the retraction was made in response to a legal threat is beside the point; newspapers and magazines get such threats pretty frequently, and if they're willing to stand behind the story, they'll say "Okay, sue us then. We've got our facts straight, you'll lose." If, however, plenty of other reliable sources do still stand behind the characterization as "far right", then we'd still go with the consensus of sources. The Economist's statement should be considered, but it is not dispositive. Seraphimblade Talk to me 21:54, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
Seems at first sight to be a tertiary source for information and its website [118] states clearly:
It is being used quite extensively at the Harold Holt biography as a "catch-all" reference. I rather think that actual secondary sources should be used rather than using a single tertiary source for much of any article.
Opinions please? Should the biography seek actual secondary sources rather than rely so extensively on the ADB as the main source for details? Collect ( talk) 13:31, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
Would Epguides be a reliable source for airdates? - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 23:01, 19 February 2016 (UTC)