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Wikipedia talk:In the news. Thanks.
Up to two million public sector workers in the
United Kingdom commence a 24-hour
strike over
pension reforms, affecting schools, hospitals, airports, ports and government offices nationwide.
(BBC)
The
IranianForeign Ministry calls the attacks "unacceptable", stating that they happened despite the efforts of the embassy guards. Police arrest 12 protesters in connection with the attacks.
(Fars News)
Researchers at
Washington State University develop an artificial bone "scaffold" which can be produced using
3D printers, potentially allowing doctors to quickly print replacement bone tissue for injured patients.
(BBC)
Nominator's comments: Even though the Albanian Kingdom does not exsist anymore some people would find this interesting and he was a infuential person in Albania history especially 1997. We did post the death of Archduke Otto why not Crown Prince Leka --
Spongie555 (
talk)
23:54, 1 December 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose not all that significant. Otto was posted in part because he was still active in politics as an MEP. Plus, the Habsburg line is much more well-known.
Hot Stoptalk-
contribs00:02, 2 December 2011 (UTC)reply
Neutral The posting of Archduke Otto was valid, because of who he was and his place in history. This is.....not so notable. But the person involved and the landmark age has a certain curiosity about it.
doktorbwordsdeeds18:21, 2 December 2011 (UTC)reply
Neutral It seems to be well covered through the various media, but it's only commencing a whole new story with other proceedings. The start of the judgement with its verdict would be more notable than his deportation, so I really don't think we should post the same story twice.--
Kiril Simeonovski (
talk)
22:55, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support once there is a fuller update. I don't think the issue of posting the story twice is something to be concerned about because his (presumed) conviction will be a long way off. --
FormerIP (
talk)
00:49, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support per Night w and FormerIP. This is significant since Gbagbo was presented some ten years ago as an honorable democrat and the alternative to military dictatorship.
Tachfin (
talk)
06:08, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I personally don't find that section particularly biased—after reading the full sentence of course. I don't think it needs its own section, but if a reliable source says that's the cause of resentment within Africa, then I'm not sure how you could water it down... Nightw06:58, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The fact that ICC has so far only investigated African countries is hardly surprising, given that Africa is a huge continent with the most countries of any continent - and the vast majority of dictatorships. The complaint by some African states (about an indictment of the Sudanese president) mostly reflects an attempt from some dictatorships to divert attention from their own crimes (e.g.
Djibouti). Given this, I don't think such politically motivated complaints (without any substantial action behind the rhetoric) deserve a section on its own. JimSukwutput07:02, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
To make an addition comment on the alleged "anti-African bias" (whatever that entails), note that ICC has so far only investigated five countries. If any objective observer is asked to pick out the five worst regimes in the world in terms of human rights abuse and war crimes, he is highly unlikely to go outside Africa. Any whining about anti-African bias based on this alone is idiotic at best and intentionally misleading (i.e. playing the race card) at worst. I'll note that the section in the article was created by one user with an obvious political agenda, and that it is mostly original research/synthesis unsupported by the cite source. It is unfortunate that we have the article on the main page with this mess. JimSukwutput04:03, 1 December 2011 (UTC)reply
Khmer Rogue? Pinochet? The Former Yugoslavia? I try not to be emotive here but it is difficult when you implicitly suggest the victims of various regimes simply don't count.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
07:42, 1 December 2011 (UTC).reply
Are you kidding me? The ICC was formed in 2002. I'm obviously referring to current-day regimes. Nor am I suggesting that the victims of various regimes "don't count". I'm simply saying that the worst regimes in the world in this decade - in terms of war crimes and human rights abuses - are predominantly in Africa. This statement would be impossible to dispute if you had any experience working in Africa as a volunteer, as I did. I resent the fact that you are, incredibly, accusing me of being apathetic to the victims of oppressive regimes. JimSukwutput16:18, 1 December 2011 (UTC)reply
And let me remind you that I only wrote the comment to bring attention to the faulty, unsourced section in one of the posted articles, which has since been removed. If you wish to launch further accusations concerning moral righteousness, I'll be glad to respond in my talk page. JimSukwutput16:37, 1 December 2011 (UTC)reply
Support. I would be neutral otherwise, but I haven't seen any other supportable nomination over the last few days, and this is better than the rest. It has all the necessary elements: war crimes, international politics, underrepresented region. JimSukwutput07:08, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support. Particularly significant as "the first former head of state to be tried by the ICC since it was set up in 2002."
[2] I have added a few sentences to the article. Re the blurb, is the word "deported" precisely accurate?- I haven't seen it used in any of the reports.
Ghmyrtle (
talk)
08:24, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Hmm, possibly not in a technical sense (not sure), but I can't think of a better one. 'taken into custody' ignores the fact that he's been under arrest all summer, and I wanted to find a way to name the country in the blurb. Any suggestions?
Modest Geniustalk10:05, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
How about: "Laurent Gbagbo, former President of Côte d'Ivoire, arrives in The Hague to face trial at the International Criminal Court over his role in the Second Ivorian Civil War"..... ?
Ghmyrtle (
talk)
10:18, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Posted The update still isn't stellar, but it has decent background information on the process. I'm not sure about whether it's technically correct to say he was "extradited to the International Criminal Court", but he wasn't really extradited to the Netherlands or any other sovereign state. -- tariqabjotu20:33, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's comments: It is the
world's largest airline by scheduled passenger-kilometer flown. Basically this means that so much transcontinental flights are no more economically feasible due to the financial crisis. A major sign for the air transportation market and world tourism.
GreyHoodTalk17:55, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Request for clarification Exactly what is happening? One thing I do know is that American law in this area is very different from that in my country (and it doesn't matter what that is). The source don't say "bankruptcy". They say "Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection." Obviously the rest of the world is unlikely to have the same chapter 11 of whatever book it comes from. While Americans may all(?) know what it means, can the blurb/article give us a more global explanation please? How does it impact on passengers? And not just here on this page. It needs to be in the blurb and/or article(s).
HiLo48 (
talk)
19:37, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment. "Chapter 11 refers to
Chapter 11, Title 11, United States Code (and not a book - I'm not sure if that was intended as a joke). It's the most common type of bankruptcy protection/reorganization process for corporations. Generally this means the corporation is delisted from the stock exchange, with operations ongoing (and substantially owned by debtors). I am not familiar with what the reorganization usually entails, but I believe Chapter 11 protection is fairly common for airlines and unlikely to cause big changes. JimSukwutput21:16, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
So, in terms of impact on the broader community (which seems to me to be the important thing here), there won't be much? If that's the case, it doesn't seem like major news.
HiLo48 (
talk)
21:34, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose; reorganization while continuing to operate is not a huge deal. If it were the largest bankruptcy ever then I would support, but it does not appear to be. --
Golbez (
talk)
21:56, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment. The gist of Chapter 11 bankruptcy is that A) American Airlines believes that they do not have enough cash equivalents available to meet all of their current and near future debt obligations (and hence is bankrupt, or soon would be), and B) they want to start a process where they attempt to restructure / reduce their debt obligations by negotiating with creditors (under court supervision) to forgive some of their debt with the assumption that creditors will ultimately receive a larger share of what they are owed if the business continues operating than if the business were simply shut down and liquidated. Generally, one expects that the current stockholders will be wiped out (stock value goes to zero or practically zero), and the debtors agree to write off some of the debt while receiving significant ownership rights in the restructered company. Creditors have to agree to such a scheme and will often take substantial losses in the process. If they can't reach an agreement, the alternative is to sell the company and liquidate its assets in order to pay creditors. When debts are large relative to the value one might expect during a rushed sale, such an action may provide relatively little compensation to debt holders, and hence they have an incentive to attempt reorganization. Chapter 11 bankruptcy is the most common form of bankruptcy for large corporations in the US and has been very common for airlines. By total assets, this is the second largest airline bankruptcy ever (behind United Airlines in 2002). In the United example, we saw the company reduce payroll by 20% (via layoffs, furloughs, etc.), decrease their inventory of planes by 15%, reduce and reorganize their routes. Some ticket holders ultimately found their flight / route no longer existed though they were likely to be compensated. American's bankruptcy is a big financial story and matters a great deal for their investors and employees, but probably will have relatively little impact on ordinary people who aren't directly affiliated with the airline. If it went to liquidation it would be a much bigger deal, but that is unlikely, and in any event would probably take years before it occurred.
Dragons flight (
talk)
22:53, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I'm still not clear. Is AA bankrupt (in the normal sense that it cannot pay its current liabilities), or is it indicating that there is a present threat of that becoming the case? --
FormerIP (
talk)
01:16, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
A bankruptcy filing indicates that they feel it is foreseeable and unavoidable that they will be unable to pay current liabilities at some point in the future. It is not uncommon to see companies file literally the night before a debt comes due that they would be forced to default on due to lack of funds. These filings allow the company to defer some payments (subject to court supervision) so that the company can maintain the operating capital necessary to run the business. In other cases the filing may anticipate the true default by weeks, months, or even years out of a desire to maintain enough working capital to make restructuring viable, but in those cases there is still a declaration that default will be unavoidable without the protection of bankruptcy court. It appears that AA is the latter kind. They have $4B cash on hand, but have lost money each of the last four years and are expected to post a loss of ~$1.2B for 2011. So they are actually years away from cash flow crisis per se, but they believe that it is inevitable without restructuring. The fact that they do have a large cash reserve makes it likely they will be able to restructure successfully without large disruptions to passengers.
Dragons flight (
talk)
02:40, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support It's big news from a major corporation. Quantas grounded their fleet, over a labour dispute, it was here. Steve Jobs stepped down as CEO of Apple, it was here. AA files for Chapter 11, totally out of the blue, it belongs here. Simple. --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
00:52, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose another in a long list of Muslim countries' attacks on Western embassies. This is a sufficiently commonplace occurrence (like road accidents of buses that kill a score at a go) that they're not news any more than some polar bear's death. Now, if the UK or EU breaks relations over it; that'd be news. But methinks they won't, because they too understand it's no big deal.
Carlossuarez46 (
talk)
18:58, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The hostages seem to be quite a minor aspect of the story - as reported, I mean, I'm sure it was terrible for them. So the fact that they were released is a valid criticism of the proposed blurb, I think, rather than a good reason to oppose the posting. --
FormerIP (
talk)
02:52, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support A small group stormed the British embassy and took hostages. That's hardly petty vandalism and is certainly not common place. Iran was largely isolated from the Arab uprising, they can't be painted with the same brush, especially since the mob was protesting a foreign government, not the domestic one. --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
03:32, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support (perhaps reworded to emphasize embassy closings). The UK has closed its embassy, saying that the regime was behind the attacks, and has demanded that Iran close its embassy in London. The NYT describes this as the "most serious rupture of relations in decades".
[3] Norway is also closing its embassy in Tehran.
Calliopejen1 (
talk)
16:29, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Posted, but I'm very open to rewording the blurb. There were several angles for this (staff expelled, embassies closed), but I couldn't think of a way to succinctly put them in the blurb. -- tariqabjotu20:19, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Jed S. Rakoff, a judge at the U.S. District Court in
Manhattan, denies approval to a settlement agreement between the
Securities and Exchange Commission and the investment bank
Citigroup, which the SEC has charged with deceiving investors about the conditions under which a certain portfolio's investments had been chosen.
(New York Times)
Oppose'. Even among states with mixed recognition, this is probably one of the least significant. 72000 people - that's a smaller population than many universities in India. JimSukwutput05:09, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support The political volatility of South Ossetia's circumstances make these events more notable, not less.
OakWoodDoor (
talk) 06:42, 29 November 2011 (UTC) Posting by ban-evading sockpuppet struck.
Fut.Perf.☼17:07, 1 December 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose. The results of the election were cancelled due to the alleged violations by the winner, and there will be new elections. Strange.
GreyHoodTalk14:09, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment My impression is that the matter is being discussed slightly on anti-Russian grounds. You like it or not, South Ossetia is a disputed region with the same status as Abkhazia and Kosovo. It's not up to comment whether it being a sovereign country is good or not, but seems like we have a nice precedence in the other two mentioned. --
Kiril Simeonovski (
talk)
21:09, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Not Transnistria or Somaliland, as those are unrecognized by any UN members, unlike Abkhazia and South Ossetia, which have tiny recognition, and Kosovo, which has lots of recognition. And probably it's not at the country as a lingering artifact, and were it to join the UN that would be resolved, but there's enough people who will claim it POV to move the country article there at this point that it won't happen. Just my guess. (Also, the Republic of Kosovo does not currently control all of Kosovo, just as the
Nagorno-Karabakh Republic is not coterminous with
Nagorno-Karabakh) --
Golbez (
talk)
21:59, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
(ec)
Oppose Before we get diverted onto other issues, the main topic here involves an issue of electoral administration which is not, broadly defined, of importance significant enough to warrant front page inclusion.
doktorbwordsdeeds22:00, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Did you mean resignation? Or was that a quip? He's supposed to step down in December. I'd also suggest waiting for that instead. Nightw03:33, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Call it what you like, resignation, abdication, whenever he's gone and a new government is in place that does not bear his hallmark in some way.
Beyond495 (
talk)
05:02, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose Yemen is now in the leadership shuffle which has become common in the Arab uprising. Expect more ministers sacked, followed by more riots, etc. Agree with Beyond495, wait until Saleh is gone. --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
21:34, 28 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's comments: Russell was well known for his controversial films and was Oscar nominated for
Women in Love. Although he was 84, his death is said to have been unexpected and he recently agreed to direct a new film. --
JuneGloomTalk14:38, 28 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Weak support. Weak because it is a sad fact of life that everyone dies eventually. The article could probably benefit from a filmography. --
FormerIP (
talk)
18:12, 28 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose. Death at old age of a man who was not a leader of his profession (eg he never even won a "Best Director" Oscar) and whose work had almost completely petered out in recent years. The death has no impact on current events. The article is in quite bad shape. Classic "Recent deaths" material. --
Mkativerata (
talk)
18:16, 28 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support Yes, he was a relatively minor figure in mainstream cinema, but that's the point. To be as well known as he is, he had to achieve a lot in alternative cinema, and he did! Not a Hollywood hero, but that should never be a criterion here.
HiLo48 (
talk)
19:40, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Article updated The nominated event is listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Strong Support, since the CFL is the largest
Canadian football league and the game was watched across the country. There is precedent for the championship games of leagues confined to mostly to one country making ITN. For example, the result of the championship game of the
Australian Football League was an ITN item in October.
[4] --
Scorpion042204:08, 28 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Some of the discussions in the very early days of ITNR weren't very in depth or evident of a strong consensus. I think Netball was added after one person suggested it and another person added it.--
Johnsemlak (
talk)
15:47, 28 November 2011 (UTC)reply
There should be a purge of that page, so that on 2012 we'd have a fresh start. On a related note, were previous Grey Cup finals ever been posted? If it hasn't last year this should be treated like a normal ITN/C blurb. –HTD16:01, 28 November 2011 (UTC)reply
According to
this and
this the last two Grey Cups weren't posted due to lack of updates. Last year was special, too bad it was not posted. That means this should be treated like a normal ITN/C item. –HTD18:34, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support Never heard of this competition before. Now I have and have read the article, so I know a lot more. Ain't Wikipedia wonderful? I support the nomination as the major football competition in a country I've never been to.
HiLo48 (
talk)
19:50, 28 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support per ITN. What all needs to be added to the article as it stands? I believe summaries of the other playoff games are pointless and particularily weird given that I recall the AFL Final had its playoff information in a seperate article. --
PlasmaTwa221:03, 28 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Perhaps the fact that the Game summary section contains no prose? Almost the entire article, as it stands now, could have been written before the game. It's not adequately updated. -- tariqabjotu08:32, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The lead now has updated text referring to the final match, which could constitute an acceptable update; however, normally with sports stories a prose update of the 'game summary' section is required to be posted to ITN. Being listed at ITNR does not waive update requirements.--
Johnsemlak (
talk)
14:49, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Article updated The nominated event is listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: The article needs a lot of work. But the election is significant because it is the first time that the post of Prime Minister, previously an appointment of the king, will be decided by the poll results. --
FormerIP (
talk)
16:42, 25 November 2011 (UTC)reply
OK, the update is done, except one of the tables is incomplete because the numbers of votes for each party (as opposed to the number of seats) does not seem to be available. --
FormerIP (
talk)
02:49, 28 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's comments: Major sporting figure with 85 caps for Wales as well as holding the record for most appearances in the Premier League. Died in post as Welsh manager. --
yorkshiresky (
talk)
13:03, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose I honestly doubt this guy is a household name even in Wales: he certainly isn't across the border in England. The Premier League appearance records would be interesting but sports stattish, and in any case according to the article his record had since been surpassed. Coverage of death is superficial - I note that it doesn't give a precise date even - and in the case of suicide I suspect much in the way of further details will be closely guarded until the inquest.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
13:15, 27 November 2011 (UTC).reply
Comment The suggestion that the national manager of a major sport in a country is not a household name, strikes me as absurd. He may not be as well known in England as Ryan Giggs, but he isn't a nobody even here in London.--
Peter cohen (
talk)
13:38, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
SupportWP:ITN/DC criteria 1 mentions "The deceased was in a high-ranking office of power and had a significant contribution/impact on the country/region." I guess being the national manager of a major sport in a country satisfy the criteria. —
MT (
talk)
13:45, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
In Europe and many other soccer-mad countries a national team manager certainly is a 'high-ranking office of power", at least in terms of the prestige of the position. They are subject to high profile media scrutiny; they're paid very well; the selection of them is a subject of debate in broadsheet newspapers, etc. Certainly, the Wales manager is not as notable as the England manager, but it's still a major death. Also, a very young man and an unexpected death. Support.--
Johnsemlak (
talk)
14:45, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I have to agree with Jenks here. I think the meaning of the phrase is misconstrued by putting a sports figure in that category. "Office of power" includes political and military figures.
Mamyles (
talk)
15:48, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
fair point. I'd agree with that. I'm not sure whether he meets death criteria #2, though if it were the manager of a more significant footballing nation he certainly would. I'm switching to neutral.--
Johnsemlak (
talk)
16:47, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support certainly a major "wow" moment when I heard the news, and the same for anyone who followed football in the 90s. A national manager now and a major figure of the game back then. —
Amakuru (
talk)
14:12, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Sppport One of the best well regarded footballing names in the United Kingdom - you only have to see the reaction at the Swansea game this afternoon to see that. A highly regarded and very successful player and manager. One of Wales' greatest sporting exports.
doktorbwordsdeeds14:22, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment As Wales manager (a role he only held for a few months), his role was, by FIFA rankings, less prestigious than that of the manager of Armenia, Jamaica or Senegal. Notability is more tied to his playing career in the English Premier League, and as a Welsh international (again, open to the accusation that it was "only" Wales). He was, for some time, the appearance record holder in the short history of that event, but I doubt that is enough. Noteworthy, but not going to be globally news, so regretfully oppose.
Kevin McE (
talk)
14:36, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Weak Oppose, full oppose if not for the suicide. If he had set some sort of record in his position, Support then, but otherwise, not notable.
Beyond495 (
talk) 15:40, 27 November 2011 (UTC) Change to Oppose. There are plenty of suicides of notable figures.
Beyond495 (
talk)
17:52, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose - A sports manager of a semi-international team is not significant. This will not bring about any sweeping changes, and everyone not in Wales doesn't care at all.
Mamyles (
talk)
15:44, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support If for no other reason than to balance to completely ignorant oppose expressed by the previous editor. Wales are a full international team and there will be many people outside Wales who care, be assured of that.
Leaky Caldron16:04, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Wales isn't in the Olympics, because the UK team supercedes them. They've only ever qualified for one international tournament, 60 years ago. It's not ignorant to say they're semi-international.
Mamyles (
talk)
17:14, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The Olympics are organised on a different basis, and professional team sports don't qualify for the Olympics in any case. Obviously, Wales is as much an international team as any of the teams it competes against. --
FormerIP (
talk)
17:17, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
(
edit conflict)If you do not understand the subject you really should not comment. Wales is the 3rd oldest Football Association in the world see
Football Association of Wales and their status has nothing whatsoever to do with the Olympic movement. Wales qualify for every international tournament they enter. The just fail to reach the final stages.
Leaky Caldron17:24, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Most readers of Wikipedia are not going to be obsessed with the sport enough to care about a death, much less a low-ranked team manager's death. That's just how it is.
Mamyles (
talk)
17:32, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
"Obsessed enough to care" isn't a qualifying standard, as far as I'm aware. I think if you are having difficulty expressing yourself about a subject you clearly know very little about it's time move on.
Leaky Caldron17:55, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose its unfortunate, but I don't feel being coach of the Welsh team makes him important enough. The team's only appeared in one world cup (in '58) and is 45th in FIFA rankings.
Hot Stoptalk-
contribs16:26, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose - for me he is not a global interest story. For me this is a typical "english news" just because the guy was manager for an UK team he suddenly becomes of world interest. Would this nomination pass had it been lets say a Swedish manager? I dont think so.--
BabbaQ (
talk)
16:30, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Weak support. As a player, Speed held the non-goalkeeper record (for those unfamiliar with football, goalkeepers can play into their 40s) for the most
Premier League appearances and the most caps for Wales. If someone with a similar record in even a minor US sport died prematurely, the story would get posted. --
FormerIP (
talk)
16:33, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Interesting, I was unaware of that. I don't think being the one to appear in the most games is that major of record in North America (though they'd likely have others on the way), but how is it viewed in the UK?
Hot Stoptalk-
contribs16:41, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I would say international caps and number of Premiership appearances are the two most prestigious records a player can hold. There's number of goals scored as well - the FA website says Speed is ranked 36th - but not all players have an equal chance of scoring and Speed usually played midfield. By way of comparison,
David Beckham, also a midfielder, didn't score enough to make the list.--
FormerIP (
talk)
18:08, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support there's no reason that reasonably niche items shouldn't be listed at ITN. And for those who say this doesn't impact outside of Wales, they should learn to read, or not comment at ITN.
The Rambling Man (
talk)
17:43, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment Not supporting this (i don't support most deaths), however comments based on "this isn't prominent outside UK" should all be disregarded given we recently posted a scandal of a college football coach. Importance needs to be based on prominence within the field. --
Ashish-g5517:52, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Just because we made a mistake once doesn't mean we should make a similar one again. Getting "revenge" for a bad posting does not help the project.
Mamyles (
talk)
17:55, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I wouldnt post this for few other reasons (as i said i dont support) but "not being prominent outside UK" is not one of them. This has nothing to do with "revenge", Its about being a little more neutral towards other nations. --
Ashish-g5519:06, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment NASCAR got a mention and that is an extremely niche sport, it's not even major in it's own country. Football is not a niche sport and Gary Speed will be well known to the 500 million people who watch the English Premier League every week - especially as he held the record for appearances.
Torqueing (
talk)
19:12, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment If someone died off the track in NASCAR, that probably wouldn't be notable, I don't see why it should be notable in Soccer unless it's a death of an individual who set a significant record or irrevocably changed their industry (i.e - Steve Jobs).
Beyond495 (
talk)
19:15, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Disagree, I think that comment was an attempt to lighten the mood in what is becoming more and more needlessly acrimonious discussion, which should be closed soon since no consensus to approve posting is likely to be found soon.
Beyond495 (
talk)
14:03, 28 November 2011 (UTC)reply
One Final Comment Wikipedia will lose credibility if this is posted any later than tomorrow, so as my last piece of evidence in favour of the motion, just look at the newspaper front pages and then come back to me about notability.
[5]doktorbwordsdeeds23:22, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment Wikipedia will lose credibility if this is posted and other similar figures in other sports are not posted. Speed was not a notable figure on a worldwide scale.
Beyond495 (
talk)
14:03, 28 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support. Gary Speed was a major figure in the Premier League and was forging a promising managerial career. While that alone would normally not meet the ITN threshold, the complete surprise about the manner of his death and the resulting level of coverage does. This is even getting covered by the
New York Times for goodness sake! The arguments above might carry more weight were it not for the fact that Tony Stewart clinched his Championship eight days ago. —
WFC—
03:57, 28 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment How big is this person? I remember when
Al Davis died earlier this year and the ITN nomination got shot down pretty quickly. It wasn't even close. He was the owner/general manager of the NFL Oakland Raiders, which experienced both wild winning streaks (three Super Bowls and 15 playoff appearances) and losing streaks (eight losing seasons from 2002-2010), and caused all sorts of controversy off the field by suing the NFL, moving the team around, and hiring minorities in positions of power. I'm not saying that "no Davis = no Speed" but I just want to know what distinguishes the two; why this entry has so much more support than Davis; if this is proper "American football equivalent" in terms of accomplishments/popularity/"notability"; if we made a mistake in not featuring Davis (if this gets posted) or it's proper that the deaths of football managers not be listed. (note: Davis was aged 82 died of heart failure, so Speed's is different in being significantly younger and very much unexpected)
hbdragon88 (
talk)
07:32, 28 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose. Relatively minor in the overall scale of things. I'm a football fan living in Wales, so agree that it's a big story in the UK, shocking, tragic, etc. - but not major enough for ITN in my view.
Ghmyrtle (
talk)
07:44, 28 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose I don't think this represents UK-centric bias, but I do think it represents a bias towards stories about sports and stories that are emotionally disturbing (but not necessary significant). JimSukwutput17:46, 28 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Posted Yes, I know this is controversial, because there is certainly no consensus to post. But, at the same time, there isn't consensus not to post, and during slow periods on ITN (which seem to be increasingly frequent), I am willing to post well-updated articles with poor consensus to post (as opposed to
poorly updated articles with strong consensus to post). This article fits in that category. -- tariqabjotu08:55, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Post-posting support - read the above discussion earlier today, and was intending to come here and support, but found it had been posted. The wording is not good, though. "found hanged"? All you need to say is that he has died and say something about his career (he was, as others have noted, more notable for his career as a footballer, rather than being manager of Wales). Putting the emphasis on how he died shows a lack of respect. This has been the major story in the UK sports news for the past few days, and the BBC have had many separate articles on many aspects of this story (at least 10-20 separate articles, which is an extraordinary amount for a single person's death). An example is
here, which includes a picture of many of the tributes fans have made, plus: "politicians in the Welsh assembly observed a minute's silence in his honour" and an Early Day Motion has been tabled in the House of Commons: "MPs from all parties in the House of Commons tabled a motion offering the House's sympathies to Speed's wife and two sons" and "Supporters have left scarves, football shirts and flowers across several football stadiums - including Everton's Goodison Park, at Leeds United's Elland Road, Newcastle United's St James' Park, the Millennium Stadium and Cardiff City Stadium", plus the opening of a book of condolences and tributes planned at the start of football games this weekend. There is plenty there for a more respectful hook than "found hanged".
Carcharoth (
talk)
01:27, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The wording of that has been changed a few times already, due to issues raised at
WP:ERRORS. Nevertheless, I have changed it to "found dead". I think "dies" suggests that it was of natural causes or, at the very least, an accident. If he were murdered, for example, we wouldn't have said "dies"; we would have said "killed". But, I agree that the method of death is not central; we just also shouldn't suggest it was of natural causes (n.b. I think "found dead" was similar to what we used for the death of Amy Winehouse). -- tariqabjotu01:41, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Thank-you. I edit-conflicted with you in an attempt to use the original wording suggested above, but your wording is good. The only quibble is that I would have tried to include the age somewhere, but what is there is good now. Hopefully it will get more people reading and (productively) editing the article to reflect the balance of the news relating to this.
Carcharoth (
talk)
01:50, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Reply No meaningless at all. The Occupy nominations were evenly balanced between support and oppose but the ultimate ruling to reject them (rightly) was based on a rounded decision on the general consensus *in addition to* the story's weight. Tariq has made the right choice here too - the arguments are very well advanced from either side, though taken from a few steps back the view is that there is reason to post. It would be meaningless had there been a clear rejection of the story, and Tariq had concluded a biased anti-whatever view was clouding the discussion and posted it anyway. (Ditto Occupy - had Tariq posted the stories despite the mass objection to them). It is also worth noting that we have been growing increasingly slow in posting news events on the front page - in some cases three or 4 days between updates - which would have helped the case of a story for which there was a view of significance.
doktorbwordsdeeds06:38, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Reply I'm still somewhat new here (around 250 edits, someone referred me to this part of Wikipedia), so I guess the take away from what you're saying is
No Consensus =
Do Whatever You Want. It would be a huge stretch that there was a consensus here for or against the story.
Beyond495 (
talk)
13:40, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Pull I disagree with the "better update gets posted" logic. The bridge collapse, the Grey Cup, and the Gambian election were better choices, and it wouldn't have taken long on the main page for them to be expanded further.
Fancruft got an utterly insignificant event expanded, and that content got it posted. Bummer. --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
02:34, 1 December 2011 (UTC)reply
Colombian military forces raid a
FARC rebel hideout in the province of
Caquetá, freeing police sergeant Luis Alberto Erazu, who had been held hostage by FARC for 12 years. Four other hostages are killed by the rebels during the raid.
(Miami Herald)
Nominator's comments: I'm nominating this because there are really good photos of the collapsed bridge in the article already, and because people will have a hard time finding this article without knowing the name of the bridge.
Speciate (
talk) 14:20, 28 November 2011 (UTC) --
Speciate (
talk)
14:20, 28 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support As I've discovered, it's not significance, but interest that must apply globally. Anyway, it is a substantial bridge, relatively new, and it is a spectacular failure. Bridges don't collapse every day. --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
21:22, 28 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment - I don't really have a strong opinion one way or the other, but there are two observations I would like to make. A similar collapse, the
I-35W Mississippi River bridge, was posted in 2007. Also, the article about this bridge needs a lot more work before it is ready. --
Bongwarrior (
talk)
01:24, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose. Not exactly an anomaly in a country like Indonesia. Minus the drama, this is just another case of things that are supposed to work not working. JimSukwutput07:06, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support -- I agree with nominator. This is by far the most serious event to have taken place in Pakistani - U.S. relations for years, and it seems the U.S. has given very little evidence to support itself, saying only "[we] regret any loss of life caused". Could you imagine if Pakistani soldiers killed 26 US servicemen in the US? Would that not be considered frontpage wikipedia news? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
S.devincenzi (
talk •
contribs)
17:33, 26 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I suspect that the assassination of Osama bin Laden was "the most serious event to have taken place in Pakistani - U.S. relations for years". But your point is apt. Hard to see how the death of so many Pakistani troops to "friendly fire" isn't notable.
OakWoodDoor (
talk)
21:48, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment, I have to agree with the above that this shouldn't have been posted until it was ready, as the linked section is very under-informative, and only a few lines long. When I looked, it was also full of poorly-written original research, which, to be fair, I suspect wasn't there when it was nominated. Bobtalk22:42, 26 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Weak Oppose Pakistan is on the frontier of a war zone. There have been accidental drone attacks in the region before. Not regular oppose due to the strong possibility that this will impact Pakistan - U.S relations for the foreseeable future.
Beyond495 (
talk)
17:59, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's comments: I'm not well informed on this topic; I need someone to write a decent blurb or even suggest a better target article. --
Johnsemlak (
talk)
15:17, 26 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment ITNR emphasis for interplanetary probes was recently changed from launch to arrival. I'm not opposing this because of that, but it is something to bear in mind when assessing notability: previously discussions have suggested the old post at launch approach is still in people's minds.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
16:14, 26 November 2011 (UTC).reply
Well, the arrival will happen next year. This is one of the biggest recent missions and the largest rover flying to Mars so I'd support it now already. The article needs some update on the launch, though. --Tone16:19, 26 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support. We have a detailed Wikipedia article, and personally, I think the launch is a fine opportunity to highlight that. Presumably there will be other stories once it lands or when it discovers interesting things, but that's most of a year away and I think it is okay to post this now and then cover other events later as appropriate.
Dragons flight (
talk)
17:41, 26 November 2011 (UTC)reply
support just post both. Its not like they launch mars rovers every day or that ITN is so bogged down with news that we need to slow things up --
Ashish-g5517:56, 26 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support A very important new and innovative mission for NASA. This is needed to balance the idiotic reporting around the time of final shuttle mission that NASA had closed down, or words to that effect.
HiLo48 (
talk)
01:43, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Article needs updating The nominated event is listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
I just realised that the New Zealand has a
general election which will occur on the 25th in the Western hemisphere and 26th in the Eastern. Due to time constraints, I cannot make a proper nomination but will be grateful if someone can do that for me.
The electorate results table now looks to be complete. The "Christchurch Central" electorate line may look incomplete to a quick glance, because the preliminary results have it at a dead heat so no winner can be declared.-
gadfium01:08, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Article updated The nominated event is listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Weak Support -- National elections should be generally included IMO, although apparently this one was not free and fair and it was for a very small nation, so it's borderline.
Beyond495 (
talk)
15:42, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
India's government decides to relax rules concerning the operation of foreign-owned retailers such as
Wal-Mart and
Tesco within India.
(The New York Times)
Egypt protests: Violent anti-regime protests enter their fifth day in
Cairo's
Tahrir Square, with 35 people killed and over 3,200 injured to date in clashes between protesters and security forces.
(CNN)
Nominator's comments: Our article may be problematic because, whereas the BBC report 13,000 deaths in the massacre, we give estimates which are many times higher. --
FormerIP (
talk)
20:32, 23 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Yes I agree. But I think maybe it would be a good idea to conduct an NPOV check on the article. I'm not saying I know it to have a problem, just that it is a considerable variance with what is in the BBC article. --
FormerIP (
talk)
22:51, 23 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose no formal apology (in a binding manner) was stated. It is just one politician saying something and later backing down. I do not believe this is worth being headline news. I do not quite see the significance aside from some media hype here and there. On an unrelated incident Merkel stated Neo-Nazi
Bosphorus serial murders were "Germany's disgrace" but that wasn't even noteworthy enough for that particular news to be posted. I think there is an overreaction in terms of estimation of this piece of news. --
A Certain White Catchi? 17:52, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
Pull - By precedence we generally do not post apologies of any sort, as they really have no lasting or significant political impact.--
WaltCip (
talk)
00:07, 26 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Until you have something better to post, I'm not at all interested. I don't understand why some people here seem to prefer a stagnant section to a dynamic section that includes things "we generally do not post". We can't just post elections. -- tariqabjotu00:12, 26 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Keep. There's no precedence that we don't post apologies of any sort. The Dersim Massacre is one of the great atrocities of the 20th century, and it's impact continues today not only between the two countries but in other countries such as France and the US. This was an apology by the Turkish PM; while it's not a binding resolution, it's not the apology of some random politician.--
Johnsemlak (
talk)
20:45, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I think the difference is that he has previously said he intended to sign his resignation, but on this occasion he has actually signed it.--
FormerIP (
talk)
21:38, 23 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Darren Scully, the mayor of the
Irish town of
Naas, resigns after the latest in a series of scandals, having made radio comments about the "aggressive attitude" of "black Africans". A police investigation into his actions is underway.
(RTE News)(Daily Mail)(Irish Times)
Oppose. Sorry, but this just isn't a significant news story. I don't deny that it is interesting but I suggest that it would be a better candidate for
T:TDYK. --
FormerIP (
talk)
15:12, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Two people are injured after
Syrian soldiers attack buses carrying
Turkish citizens returning through Syria from a
hajj pilgrimage to
Saudi Arabia.
(CNN)
A
Congressional panel fails to agree on proposals to cut the
United States' national budget deficit by $1.2 trillion, leading to automatic budget cuts.
(CBC)
[Posted] Egyptian government resigns amidst protests
Comment. There's resigning and then there's offering to resign. If the story develops so that we have a new cabinet, then I'd give this a strong support. But I think it's too much ahead of the curve just for the moment. --
FormerIP (
talk)
21:42, 21 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The news is that there are renewed violent protests in Egypt, with many casualties, and government offering resignation. Regardless of whether the military accepts the resignation, these events are significant enough to undermine the fragile provisional political setup.
Crnorizec (
talk)
21:46, 21 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Strong supportnow, since it calls back to the deadly protests with an instability caused by the resignation of the government. We don't need to wait until the new cabinet is announced, as the violent protests anew seem to be sufficient for posting anyway.--
Kiril Simeonovski (
talk)
21:51, 21 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I don't think we need to wait until a new cabinet is sworn in, just until this one's resignation has actually been accepted. If that doesn't happen, then that doesn't mean we can't post anything else that's going on in Egypt. But I don't think the cabinet resignation is the story until it happens. In which case, it most definitely will be the story. --
FormerIP (
talk)
21:53, 21 November 2011 (UTC)reply
That's the least problem. I did note the wording lately and you have my excuse for it. How about a blurb saying: "In the most recent protests in
Egypt at least 23 people are killed." And if the resignation is accepted: "Most recent protests in
Egypt in which at least 23 people are killed follow with a resignation of the government."--
Kiril Simeonovski (
talk)
22:20, 21 November 2011 (UTC)reply
That's better, but I'm not convinced that another round of protests in a region plagued with violence over the last year is really newsworthy. The deaths are tragic, but what's another 23 after the 100's already? --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
00:08, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support to be posted immediately. Their offer of resignation will be accepted or declined within a day, and we can update the blurb then. Entire governments don't offer to resign often, so this is significant.
Mamyles (
talk)
22:56, 21 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Strong support right now. The renewed protests are significant, and per Mamyles, when talking about a whole government, the mere offer of resignation is notable/significant.
jcgoble3 (
talk)
23:19, 21 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Strong Oppose This is a local problem of limited global interest. We can't post to ITN every time XYZ government says it might do something. There is already the "intends to run" in Myanmar, and the intent for a Eurasian union. What's next? Syria promises reforms? Greece proposes new bill? Post to ITN when something actually happens, not when some government says it wants to do something. --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
00:06, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Every first and second-world country is following the events in Egypt. It it far from limited global interest. And we can post every time a significant proposition is made, judging from the 16-36 hours between each ITN update.
Mamyles (
talk)
01:39, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
If every politician making a promise to placate an angry populate got on ITN, the page would be 200k of empty claims that never came to fruition. --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
02:59, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Users can safely ignore remarks posted by 76.18.43.253 like the above one. Notice how he appeared out of nowhere and started making a stream of nonsensical opposes against obviously notable items. Then when I exposed his bullshit for what it is, he proceeded to follow me across five AfD nominations and vote the opposite way in every one of them. This, my friends, is the clear mark of a troll. The best strategy will be to ignore his inane comments from now on; once he gets bored, he will start trolling elsewhere on Wikipedia with a new IP. JimSukwutput04:56, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Strong support for obvious reasons. As far as I'm concerned this is ITN/R material - an entire government is being reorganized as a result of violent protests. In a country of 80 million people nonetheless. JimSukwutput04:56, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose Support merit, but until the government is actually dissolved this isn't ready to be posted. "Offers" is also a rather informal word. Maybe something like, The interim government of Egypt tenders its resignation following violent riots that killed at least 30 protesters and wounded more than 1,200. Interim should be emphasized because no official government has been elected, yet.
WikifanBe nice05:35, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support The news here is the protests in which 30 people died and that's what should get the focus. The government is fragile and unstable they can say we resign all day it doesn't mean they're gonna do it and they can't do it anyway since the military has to accept their resignation. If you want this to be posted you should amend the blurb and drop the resignation speculations. --
Tachfin (
talk)
15:47, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The old one has definitely now resigned and had its resignation accepted. That's clear from all the news reports. Bender: in terms of a government being out of office, that happens when it is announced, surely? --
FormerIP (
talk)
00:36, 23 November 2011 (UTC)reply
At least 13 people are killed and as many as 900 injured as violent protests continue in
Cairo's
Tahrir Square against
Egypt's ruling military government. Security forces attempt to disperse the crowds with
tear gas and
baton charges.
(BBC)
Article updated The nominated event is listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: I'm signing off for the night, so I will not be able to handle any issues that may arise until tomorrow late morning or afternoon, Eastern Time. Feel free to
be bold and fix things yourself if stuff needs fixing.
jcgoble3 (
talk)
05:23, 21 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator comment I've added a (non-bold) link to the race article to the blurb, now that I've written up a reasonable race report. The article is still tagged {{under construction}} due to the results tables not yet being filled in, so if there's any particular reason an {{under construction}} article can't be linked on the Main Page, feel free to remove the link.
jcgoble3 (
talk)
17:59, 21 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment The article could do with a good proof-read and copyedit - there are one or two jarring changes in tense in the 2011 paragraph in particular, which could probably do with breaking up in any case. I don't think its a lot of work but I'm not volunteering since I need to be somewhere else right now.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
19:09, 21 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Done Copy-edited the 2010, 2011, and "Other racing series", and also removed a section that was out of place and which I have no clue which year it belongs under. The rest of the article looks to be in fairly decent shape on a quick scan.
jcgoble3 (
talk)
20:11, 21 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment This is in the US, right? Just pointing out that neither the blurb nor the article lead/lede give any indication of where this takes place, and, in my part of the world, it is not so much unimportant as unheard-of.
Ghmyrtle (
talk)
21:55, 21 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The very first sentence of
Tony Stewart identifies him as an "American auto racing driver". I've mentioned the U.S. in the blurb. (Interestingly, I looked through the history of the ITN template to see how this was worded before, but I could not find it in either of the past two years despite it being on ITN/R.)
jcgoble3 (
talk)
23:10, 21 November 2011 (UTC)reply
In sports blurbs, it's standard to begin with In (name of sport), ...; i.e. In auto racing, .... I don't think it it's necessary to say it happened in the US.--
Johnsemlak (
talk)
02:47, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Good point. I've changed "In the United States" to "In auto racing". Thanks for the tip; this is my first significant experience with nominating something for ITN. That said, can we get some !votes, please? This is going to become stale soon.
jcgoble3 (
talk)
02:54, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Article updated The nominated event is listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
The
United States successfully tests a new
hypersonic weapon system, capable of striking targets 3,700 kilometres (2,300 mi) away in under 30 minutes, as part of its
Prompt Global Strike program.
(BBC)
Nominator's comments: Even though the Cathedral isn't historical it has a profound impact on the world especially with its show
The Hour of Power. It is a major landmark in Southern California. And we dont see Cathedrals(even though it wasn't a Cathedral technically) auctioned off to often.
Spongie555 (
talk)
05:41, 21 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose, just a real estate transaction. From one church to another. It's still going to be a church. If the price were somehow recordbreaking, or if it were going to be demolished, then maybe, but neither apply. --
Golbez (
talk)
19:32, 21 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment Blurb would need work to distinguish the institution from the building: one does not 'found' a building indicating these two are confused.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
12:28, 23 November 2011 (UTC).reply
Support per Greyhood, this is "nice news". I suggest we bold the
Battle of Öland article -which is in good shape- with a section there about this new finding as frankly there isn't much to say about the ship.
Tachfin (
talk)
04:32, 20 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Because, despite the attention that the two-sentence stub has received from numerous users here, nobody seems able to come up with anything extra to say about it. If it's only two sentences, it's perfectly possible to put the relevant information in a list or in the article referred to above. JimSukwutput10:30, 20 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I think there's plenty of scope for expansion. It's a very notable ship in historical terms. The Norwegian article is already expanded. It may not be suitable for ITN posting right now as a bolded article but I think it's worthy of an article.--
Johnsemlak (
talk)
13:07, 20 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The Norwegian article has one inline citation, even if we dump a translation it still wouldn't be enough. Furthermore, it has only a section about the specs and another about the
Battle of Öland. I'm not saying the ship article should be deleted but the battle article has much more substance potential that would interest the average reader and is already nicely expanded.
Tachfin (
talk)
15:35, 20 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support "the last key Gaddafi family member to be seized or killed", according to the BBC, and he's wanted by the International Criminal Court for crimes against humanity. Hut 8.518:32, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
It has been posted as captured "while attempting to flee to
Niger." While some news agencies are making this claim, many are not. Some sources have been saying for weeks that he has been trying to get into Niger, but frankly, it can't be that hard a border to cross. At the moment, I don't think that detail is one we are confident enough of to incorporate into our blurb, nor is it essential to the newsworthiness of the item. Suggest deletion of that detail.
Kevin McE (
talk)
19:57, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Scientists claim to have created World's lightest material. I was skeptic at first but its been published by
ScienceMag and reading few articles (
BBC) it looks like a very legit claim. Very encyclopedic but i believe we will need a new article for this or maybe update in
Truss if that's acceptable. there is also a free
image available for it. --
Ashish-g5501:59, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Conditional Support pending article. There may be some debate over whether it is the material, or the structure of the material, that gives this its "light weight" property, so one might argue that the title "World's lightest material" is a tad misleading. This is a minority topic. Btw, that is a wonderful image that would look great on the front page.
DeterenceTalk05:33, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support if this indeed is current news, and if the article is expanded at least twice in size and includes the information on who and when developed the thing. Currently the article lacks this key info.
GreyHoodTalk22:08, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment I'm in two minds about the notability of this: it doesn't strike me as a development of Earth-shattering importance that everyone has been waiting with baited breath for. On the other hand it is legitimately asserted to be a minority topic so possibly it hits that reduced threshold. However, the article is not currently up to scratch: I personally don't see why a new article needs ten times the work putting in compared to wedging a minimal update into an existing article, but that is the way it is and the article falls short of the minimum coverage for a new article.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
02:23, 20 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support I enjoyed seeing
Aerogel associated with the featured picture a few months back. It's interesting, especially from an engineering background. The update associated with this event (new article and multiple sections) is much more than the typical few sentences.
Mamyles (
talk)
05:17, 20 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Is the article missing something that you would like to see? That article is example of update it does not mean we need to count its lines to match with all ITN items. We have posted one para articles many times as they satisfy ITN update and get expanded as soon as they go up. This is a lot more than that. --
Ashish-g5518:10, 20 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I don't know what I like to see specifically, just a more developed article. It doesn't matter how you assess that article, it comes up short. You compare it to the recognised minimum it is shorter, it lacks a summary infobox (not that I'm saying a gratuitous and mostly empty one would be a good idea) and far fewer references. "There's nothing to say" is not a rationale to post in the absence of an update - it is actually a compelling against posting.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
15:14, 21 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Most updates we see here are 2-4 sentences. This update is an entire article/stub or 8 sentences. While I believe this minority topic is worth posting, I also can't see anything more specific to add. If the information on the event is complete, then I assume it is ready.
Mamyles (
talk)
15:25, 21 November 2011 (UTC)reply
To a certain extent I agree with you, hence my comments above about a new article needing a lot more working than wedging an update in an existing one. However, that is the situation as it stands.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
16:00, 21 November 2011 (UTC).reply
the image is OK for non-commercial use according to HRL copyright notice. Even though its free i dont think its free enough for main page. initially i thought it was. the one in article seems to be off of news site. --
Ashish-g5502:14, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose I do not see the importance of the story in the round for front page inclusion. Having looked at the earlier links you provide, I think the consensus stands up here too
doktorbwordsdeeds15:29, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
It's sorta like Obama jailing Bush for screwing Kerry. This case was for the 2007 Senate election, not for the 2004 presidential election.
As for the August 2011 discussion, that was the first time that it happened, and it was not posted. For the June 2007 discussion, that was the result of the general election, usually automatically posted, but no one even bothered to check if it was updated (LOL). So essentially, this story was skipped upon twice (going on thrice) already. –HTD15:56, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's comments: Very significant move, possibly indicating confidence on the part of the NLD that forthcoming byelections will be fair. --
FormerIP (
talk)
22:03, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support Let's face it, short of a nuke going off in downtown
Naypyidaw,
Suu Kyi is the only reason anyone cares about
Burma/
Myanmar. While the registration of a
political party would be a trivial event in most countries, the registration of Suu Kyi's
National League for Democracy is one of the most notable events to occur in Burma's political arena for years. I would also be open to waiting until the National League for Democracy actually registers as a political party, (or attempts to register), especially given that the response of the government/military to such an act will also be quite notable.
DeterenceTalk00:37, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I'd support waiting if we can be sure it is going to happen like that, but I don't have the info. It may just be a bureaucratic process that may not get reported and might not even get announced, in which case we lose the story. In terms of the government response, it seems like a fait accompli that the application will just be processed. Suu Kyi has been in talks with them for much of the year. I don't think there is any chance of it being declined. --
FormerIP (
talk)
20:31, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support A notable development, a highly important event in that country's history and a rare inclusion for Asian politics on the front page. Question - do we have "Myanmar" in parentheses?
doktorbwordsdeeds10:26, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose This is a local issue with no global significance. Announcing an intention and setting a target date is all politicians do! We can't promote every piece of political clap-trap which gets spewed out, especially one as insignificant as this.--
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
20:34, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
This is the second time you used this idiotic line of reasoning. You previously claimed that the start of the Syrian civil war is a "local problem of no real international significance". Now you claim that the largest political party in a country of 60 million people being allowed to rejoin politics again is somehow another "local issue with no global significance". Yet the only nomination you've ever supported on ITN is 200 people being evicted from Zuccotti Park. You gotta be kidding me here. Read the third point of the "Please do not..." guidelines above. JimSukwutput20:46, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Please Jim, there is no reason to be uncivil. "Idiotic" is a cruel and unnecessary word to use. Global significance is different, and is consistently a factor on ITN. If HIV were cured in Sweden tomorrow, it would be news. Some politicians in a repressed country claiming they'll do something is not. If they do manage to run, win or lose, with or without being imprisoned, then it's good for ITN. --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
21:09, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Those damned neutrinos exceed the speed of light once again, this time at
CERN.[1] Perhaps not something to list immediately, but certainly something notable in the under-represented (at ITN) world of particle physics and its consequences...
The Rambling Man (
talk)
17:06, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Strong Oppose. Actually, what happened was that some scientists sought to find a reason for why the original experiment had its results, which runs completely against empirical evidence and thus is unlikely to be valid (even the original team who carried out the experiment said this much). One of common hypotheses was that the length of the bunches of neutrinos that were produced could introduce errors with the time difference measured. So the original team addressed this criticism by producing shorter bundles and somehow came up with the same results. This does not tell us at all that their original experiment was valid. In fact, this is not even a replication, since it was ran by the same team with almost exactly the same conditions. If some other fault with the design is to blame, then that fault still exists and so we would expect the same incorrect results to come out.
In short, we still do not know whether special relativity is indeed mistaken or whether some experimental error is to be blamed. In either case, this experiment is only a tiny step towards finding out. The independent experiment that is scheduled to be run a few months later in Japan would be a much more important stage in this process. JimSukwutput17:25, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Of course. I'm not opposing this on the basis of whether the experiment is valid. My point was that this is a very small step towards finding out whether the original experiment was valid or not. As such, it is not notable. It's true that this is appearing in some newspapers, but so are thousands of items every day; besides, news items are based purely on interest, and our nominations are decided based on notability and quality. JimSukwutput17:50, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Fair enough. That's why it was a cheeky nom. Perhaps in years to come this will prove to be the ITN "we should have posted". Who knows. Perhaps I should go back to finishing off that time machine I was working on...!
The Rambling Man (
talk)
19:05, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Hopefully in weeks to come we won't have to put up with
dickish remarks like whatever your hypothesis from a bureaucrat. If you can't stop yourself from putting other editors down, with self righteous and inaccurate commentary, I'd suggest you shut up Rambling Man. Pedro :
Chat 21:55, 20 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Jim Sukwutput, congratulations. Your little
WP:SOAP provides one of the clearest examples of the
theory-dependence of observations I have ever seen - the scientists MUST have made a mistake because their data conflicts with the theories I believe. I'm especially impressed by that mountain of
WP:OR that you've provided to show just where those hapless scientists went wrong. Thank goodness you're here to steer them back onto the right track. Now, if you could just solve that silly little Palestine-Israel squabble by lunch, that would be positively spiffing. *golf clap*
DeterenceTalk21:29, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Did you even read what I wrote? At no point did I make any claim whatsoever about the validity of the experiment. As I am not a working physicist, I am not in a position to do that. That is why I rely on the testimony of working scientists, whose
consensus opinion I stated. My friendly advice would be to read what you're responding to next time rather than citing some exotic philosophical article that you have little comprehension of. Thomas Kuhn, really? I'd have a little more respect for you if you bothered to read the sources and figure out what's actually going on instead of starting another one of your little rants about how everybody on ITN is in some kind of conspiracy to oppress your favourite topics.
Did I at any point claim that certain scientists are wrong? I claimed that the experiment might be wrong, and the scientists who carried out the experiment themselves concurred that that was the most likely scenario. The entire point of revealing the experimental results was to hopefully let someone else figure out what the error was, rather than to attempt to discredit mainstream physics. No working physicist disputes the results of general relativity, just as no biologist disputes evolution and no serious mathematician works outside of the axiom of choice. But instead of educating yourself of the basic facts in this case, you choose to go and cite some metaphysical nonsense about how all science is really subjective and hence we cannot trust empirical evidence, so every little "anti-establishment" experiment that you favor for some reason deserves to be posted on ITN, and everyone who disagrees is just a delusional Einstein fanboy.
My statements about the possible errors of the experiment was not even the main thrust of my argument - in fact, you completely agree with me on my argument that regardless of the validity of the original experiment, this repeated experiment is not noteworthy enough to be posted. So you initiated a pointless discussion filled with personal insults for what? To show how intelligent you are and how the rest of us are all dimwitted idiots with little understanding of analytic philosophy? I bow to your wisdom. Now please leave me the fuck alone. JimSukwutput03:17, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
That was my point, Deterence. You agreed with me in substance, yet you chose to waste your time making snarky remarks on my comment and throwing insults. What exactly is your problem? Been too long since your last ban? JimSukwutput06:37, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
this is same experiment done with shorter beam length to reduce errors. We have already posted this once. Now we wait till we can say in our blurb that our last 100 years were useless --
Ashish-g5517:53, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose This entire subject has been the target of a veritable avalanche of abuse and scorn from the cult of Einstein in recent months and I always wonder what they're hiding when people start having conniptions in their efforts to censor/ridicule a subject into oblivion. But, we have already posted the original public announcement in ITN. An independent verification of the results would be notable and obviously worth posting in ITN, (not withstanding the stubborn declaration by armchair critics that any data that conflicts with Einstein must be wrong), but, this is simply a modified version of the original experiment conducted by the same people. It's significant, but not significant enough for ITN.
DeterenceTalk21:39, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose this experiment does not constitute verification of the results, it has merely removed one potential problem. If there is some systematic flaw in the design of the experiment then this would not have caught it. What's more if the neutrinos aren't travelling faster than the speed of light then we probably won't post that on ITN ("neutrinos obey known physics" isn't much of a news story) so we risk misleading our readers by posting this. Hut 8.512:07, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose The speed of neutrinos at CERN is a local issue of limited global significance. Do people in the rest of the English speaking world care how fast some European neutrinos are traveling? I don't think so. Now, when we can post "General relativity proven false, humans vacation on
Risa.", that should be newsworthy. --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
20:44, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Again Jim with the cruelty. I don't understand why you use these terms. Since the header for this item was "Einstein fail" and was obviously doomed, I figured I would have a little fun with it. --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
21:13, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Weak Support. The Eurasian Union is only a distant possibility so far, but if it were indeed carried out, the long-term implications are immense. In any case, the cooperation agreement itself is quite noteworthy, if only as an indication of the shifting geopolitical climate in the region. JimSukwutput17:33, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Neutral I can see the long-term significance of the agreement and think this story would be a welcome addition to the front page. The Union has not been formally created though, has it? Maybe the blurb and article should be looked at to make sure it is clearly explained.
doktorbwordsdeeds17:56, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
At least they formally created the Eurasian Commission and the Eurasian Economic Space, which both would start working from Jan 1 2012. Perhaps we could post it on 1 January if not now. Still the treaty is quite significant per se as a demonstration that re-integration starts.
GreyHoodTalk19:01, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support This proves the success of the European Union, by having the former Soviet Union want to imitate its processes. The treaty could be the start of something big. As the formal agreement is the news, it would be better posted sooner than later.
Mamyles (
talk)
19:31, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Using that logic, the creation of the European Union with the same confederate form of governance "proves the success of the" Soviet Union or Yugoslavia. Newsflash: all these mega-States are wonderful successes, until nationalistic squabbles lead to ethnic cleansing and genocide.
DeterenceTalk22:54, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose Estimates of the size of the oil spill range from "a trickle" to around 650 barrels of oil, depending on who you believe. Either way, even 650 barrels is a lot less oil than the average cargo ship carries so this is hardly Earth-shattering stuff. However, the notability of this story may come in the near future as there are some indications (from the Brazilian government) that Chevron has been breaking a few drilling rules.
DeterenceTalk21:51, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Strong Oppose on consistency grounds. If we did not post anything about the actual protest, it makes no sense whatsoever to post this one. Most of the event occurred at the same time as the nominated event below (Nov 15) and is merely one of many results of what happened. JimSukwutput06:02, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Sorry, but I don't agree that we should conflate these arrests with the progression and day-to-day affairs of Occupy Wall Street. These arrests were carried out against individuals other than those who are participating in the protests. The two subjects are related but fundamentally distinct. — C M B J07:19, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose The NYPD used unconstitutional threats and violence to silence and "detain" journalists and create a media black-out during the eviction in clear violation of the 1st Amendment (this isn't soapboxing, this is what just about every media organisation is reporting, except Fox). But, this was just one small (albeit very significant) aspect of a topic (the forced removal of the Occupy Wall Street protesters) that has already been nominated below. Regardless, the Occupy nominations already have bugger-all chance of being posted by this editorial community. Add to that the complete and utter subservience and sycophantic hero-worship that these editors display when grovelling at the feet of the NYPD, then you have
WP:SNOW chance of getting this posted. Remember: you are completely forbidden from ever suggesting any wrongdoing by American cops in ITN/C ;-)
DeterenceTalk06:35, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I don't think anyone is still kidding themselves into believing that nominations about Occupy events are "almost always afforded reasonable consideration for ITN inclusion". Aside from a couple of wikilawyering robots with sticks up their ****, the opposition to the Occupy nominations is almost entirely partisan.
DeterenceTalk08:15, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose This is just a detail of an event and not a news story in its own right. The Occupy "movement" has had its news events nominated here before and consistently failed to persuade the community that they are notable enough for inclusion. That journalists are arrested as part of wider unrest is just a consequence which does not move the story forward and is certainly not credible enough for a front page mention.
doktorbwordsdeeds07:18, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The "Occupy" movement may have failed to persuade the community of its periodic newsworthiness, but I hardly see how that absolutely precludes any and all consequential stories. — C M B J07:45, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment Because we need to look at these nominations in the context of the wider issue. Occupy is a "special case" insofar as those pushing for front page credence seem to be very hasty in nominating every little blip and bluster that occurs. It is significant that almost all Occupy "movement" stories have failed to make it to the front page, and equally significant that people feel it necessary to nominate every latest little local difficulty (be it at Portland or New York or London). I have said before and do so again here - the race to get a front page story seems to have overtaken the Occupy "movement" itself.
doktorbwordsdeeds07:51, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Clearly, we do not disagree about the fact that those passionate about the Occupy movement have made many ITN nominations which do not pass muster. That's essentially going to be a given with any prolonged event that sparks the innate interests of our contributors. But if we're looking at this particular nomination within the context of its "wider issue"—the context of journalism within international human rights, as opposed to just the "Occupy" movement itself—then it's difficult to trivialize what has happened. Statements of concern and condemnation have been issued by the
Society of Professional Journalists, the
Committee to Protect Journalists,
Reporters Without Borders, and, perhaps most strikingly, the
OAS Special Rapporteur for Freedom of Expression. These bodies do not pander to the lowest common denominator; they're serious organizations that involve themselves only in the issues of most significant effect. — C M B J10:43, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I take your point, though a Google search suggests these arrests have not gathered much coverage, even in the 'alternative' media, and there's a sense that the news agenda has already moved on in any case. I don't think front page coverage of this minor development would be appropriate. It might put into question issues of bias and politics.
doktorbwordsdeeds12:33, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Arguably, this subject fails (or not) on notability grounds. But, your suggestion that posting this nomination is inappropriate because it "might put into question issues of bias and politics" is absurd nonsense. How does posting an ITN article about the NYPD's treatment of journalists covering the Occupy protests raise any inappropriate questions of "biased and political"? WHAT inappropriate bias and WHAT inappropriate politics would Wikipedia be facilitating by posting this topic?
DeterenceTalk12:47, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Ah, I chose a slightly different search term within Google News, I apologise. Looking from a neutral perspective, journalists have been mistreated and expelled all the time, it is part of the job in certain jurisdictions. Is it not likely to give Occupy undue credence by giving front page coverage to a story like this? I can't see anything particularly notable when the Occupy "movement" itself is of questionable worthiness.
doktorbwordsdeeds12:56, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
What? Doktorbuk, your primary objection to posting a story about journalists is that it might allow some mention of the Occupy protests to slip into the back corner of the room? You are completely OBSESSED with Occupy.
DeterenceTalk13:04, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
In those regions where human rights abuse is so common as to be reasonably anticipated, the inherent repetition and triviality of coverage would be the disqualifying factors for ITN. That's simply not the case here, though. It is notable when multiple mainstream journalists are arrested, while covering a peaceful demonstration, in a stable first world country. Insofar that the story lends credence to the Occupy movement, I'm prepared to concede that it most likely will in some way. But as for whether or not that credence is undue under these circumstances will undoubtedly come down to a matter of personal opinion. — C M B J13:24, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
CMBJ, whilst we disagree on allowing this nomination to be given front page inclusion, it is good to see that a topic can be discussed without personal insults. I was struck by how quickly personal digs were thrown around in discussions elsewhere, it's constructive to have discussions without having to resort to that. I cannot change my mind on this, unfortunately, although the case you make is very sound. It is not convincing enough for me, ultimately, and even observed neutrally the event looks more of an Occupy-based story than a police-based one. Because of that, the lens through which the story is viewed becomes more important than the story itself. That is why I voiced concerns earlier about bias and politics. Have you put this story into today's (or the relevant day's) current affairs template? I know that is no longer as popular as it once was, though it does allow you to make the news event known through Wikipedia whilst leaving this discussion here for people to see the debate which led to its ultimate rejection as a front page lead?
doktorbwordsdeeds13:46, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
New York Civil Liberties Union: "Swooping in, deliberately when no one is around, and then depriving the news media of access to information is entirely unacceptable."
Fordham University: "...rejected the mayor’s explanation that police were trying to protect reporters by keeping them away and instead accused them of trying to limit images that might rile up the public."
MoJo: "Cops just violently shoved me away as I tried to shoot this man in a stretcher being loaded into ambulance."
The Village Voice: "Rosie Gray, a [staff] writer, recounted telling a police officer, 'I’m press!' She said the officer responded, 'Not tonight.'"
RT: "...said she was hit with a police baton while trying to film the protests. She told another reporter for her network that she had her press credentials clearly visible, but was still struck. She also said that she witnessed another [network's] reporter being 'slammed against the wall' and arrested."
The Daily Caller: "The police officers were beating the protesters with batons, and were also beating the media. They hit Direna and me with batons. They hit other members of the press in order to get them to move out of the street. Direna had a camera in her hand and I had a microphone, and we were being hit."
NY1: "...reporters and photographers were thrown to the ground and 'pushed to the wall if they get in front of the wrong officer.' 'Those 20 minutes were some of the scariest of my life.'"
WBAI: "...was recorded on video by witnesses as police -- including four-star Chief of Department Chief Joseph Esposito -- subdued her both on the ground and against a wall, and handcuffed her. 'She's a journalist! She's a journalist!' cameraman Evan Shamar can clearly be heard screaming on a YouTube video he shot of the arrest, while his colleague was being taken down."
Brian Stelter: "They took a Post reporter and threw him in a chokehold."
Scott Stringer: "I cannot remember any time this many reporters were arrested during a protest … [T]he brash manner in which officers ordered reporters off the streets and then made them back off until the actions of the police were almost invisible is outrageous."
OAS Special Rapporteur for Freedom of Expression : "...disproportionate restrictions on access to the scene of the events, the arrests, and the criminal charges resulting from the performance of professional duties by reporters violate the right to freedom of expression."
PEN American Center: "...an obvious abridgement of the First Amendment right of all Americans to monitor official actions that clearly carry their own First Amendment concerns."
It's debatable whether or not this story is ITN worthy, but these statements are not reflexive of an event we would usually consider "minor." — C M B J14:26, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment Regardless of how strongly you feel about this issue, CMBJ, this nomination is not going to pass now. Let's focus our efforts on something else. JimSukwutput17:38, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
With all due respect, consensus
is not determined based upon popular support. It is "ultimately determined by the quality of the arguments given for and against an issue, as viewed through the lens of Wikipedia policy, not by a simple counted majority." Conclusions are not decided by "the mere weight of public expressions of support." — C M B J22:28, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Yes, but one person versus ten does not make a consensus, and you know this. I don't understand why you're wasting your time prolonging this discussion. You admit yourself that it's debatable whether or not the story is ITN worthy. JimSukwutput03:20, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
A valid discussion does not simply end because it meets a swath of opposition. In this case, we have two central arguments ocurring: (1) that all events related to the "Occupy" movement are automatically precluded from consideration because of precedent, and (2) that the event is too trivial for inclusion. The former has no basis in policy as it applies to this nomination, and the latter has been claimed but not demonstrated. Lastly, I admit that the nomination is debatable because I recognize that all nominations rightfully are; no objective contributor can ever claim otherwise. — C M B J03:51, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
...though such discussions can, ironically, sometimes end by default due to obsolescence from a paralyzing lack of rebuttals or new participants. The number of hours before that inevitably happens is now actually growing slim. — C M B J12:15, 20 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose: Seriously. A dozen journalists being roughed up and arrested is not notable to an international audience. And why are we even discussing the rights and wrongs of the police action? How is that even relevant towards establishing notability? And is the list of "police brutalities" given above supposed to shock our conscience? Hell, I got caned by the cops with a
lathi for dancing in the middle of the road while celebrating the World Cup victory earlier this year. Talk about
first world problems.
Chocolate Horlicks (
talk)
17:48, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
It is a
false equivalency to compare the use of force against participants of a sporting event with that of permitted observers at an internationally televised protest. Moreover, the issue of significance is not police brutality, but rather that credentialed reporters were quashed indiscriminately during an event of journalistic significance. — C M B J04:27, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's comments: IAEA has published numerous reports on Iran, none of which have been as strongly-worded and explicit as this one. The report has generated a unique response from the international community and world powers.
WikifanBe nice22:16, 17 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose They've been saying this about Iran for more years than I can count and they wrongly accused Iraq of the same thing for over a decade. And do we want to open the IAEA-is-a-spineless-puppet-of-the-White-House can of worms?
DeterenceTalk22:34, 17 November 2011 (UTC)reply
It is definitely more than a political threat, at least this time. I'm just really not sure what to make of it without further investigation by the IAEA or other international bodies. And right now, it doesn't seem to have garnered a very public reaction so far. No judgement on the merits of the actual nomination, though. EricLeb01 (
Page |
Talk)23:33, 17 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose. Iran has been suspected of that for decades. The IAEA can only point a finger at someone - if a country takes unusual action because of it, that would be more meaningful.
Mamyles (
talk)
01:02, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment I agree, Iran has been "suspected" for decades, but the IAEA has never made an official stance on Iran until this week. Former IAEA chief EB denied Iran may be weaponizing its nuclear program, but
Yukiya Amano came out and announced it to the whole world. The report is leading to a
showdown at the UN. So countries are taking unusual action in this situation.
WikifanBe nice01:10, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support - This blurb passes my standards for NPOV on a internationally notable and important news story. It is the fact of the report itself that makes this item ITN-worthy; the validity of the report is moot and our personal opinions about that are, or should be, of small import.
Jusdafax02:15, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Strong Support. Depending on your personal political views, IAEA's report might or might not be a fair accusation. But there is no doubt that the very accusation itself is significant politically. It's also incorrect to say that IAEA has been accusing Iran of the same thing for many years. This as far as I know is completely incorrect; just a few years ago they released a highly controversial report (contradicting U.S. official position) saying that Iran did not have a nuclear weapons program. This is by far the strongest accusation (and evidence, if you believe it is legitimate) that Iran has a nuclear weapons program from an UN agency. JimSukwutput05:56, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support What we might think about the organisation is irrelevant. What we think of the news itself is the thing, and given the nature of this report and its contents, I would be very happy to see this on the front page. It is clearly a notable additional extra element to the wider story.
doktorbwordsdeeds08:03, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I disagree. If a little-known group of Japanese politicians condemns the US for terroristic actions, that would be startling news by a worthless organization. The organization, and what action it can do, must be considered.
Mamyles (
talk)
11:17, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
True, but this is not a little-known organization, it's an international agency affiliated with the UN. As Deterence claims, there might be some controversy over political influence from some countries, but that does not by itself make the organization's accusations any less notable, particularly if countries still decide whether to act based on these accusations. Take for example the numerous calls for war in U.S. that arose as a result of the report. I believe they are ridiculous, but they have real-life consequences. JimSukwutput17:45, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Strong oppose Report with accusations is not quite a news, but only a suspect against someone. Even if proven, many other countries use their R&D to produce nuclear weapons, but we don't post it.--
Kiril Simeonovski (
talk)
14:01, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support Of major economic impact (financial markets and explicit threat of oil embargo by Iran), political impact (vide international relations, Sarkozy, Obama et al comments, Israel comments and potential actions) etc. These have not occurred "for many years." Using political concerns to keep it out of Wikipedia is like keeping the German warning ad about the Lusitania out of a putative Wikipedia a century ago.
Collect (
talk)
14:42, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Not ready. Sorry, but the wrong article is linked, both articles are not updated and have yellow hatnotes, and the consensus on posting this in principle better be more substantial.
GreyHoodTalk18:56, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment Updated the article, doubt anything about Iran should be added to IAEA. If editors want to switch out nuclear program with
Iran and weapons of mass destruction I wouldn't object, it would just seem less accurate. Any editors oppose the arguments in favor of posting other than "nothing really new here"?
WikifanBe nice19:18, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I can't read your mind. Updated "the article"? Which article? None of the ones above look updated to me. If I'm mistaken, tell me where. -- tariqabjotu22:42, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Well, what's not good enough? What else needs to be added Tariq? Be explicit, or post this. Majority of editors support posting. Very little reason not to. Nuclear program of Iran is already an extremely bloated article. Waiting for this to get stale is a mistake.
WikifanBe nice03:16, 20 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose This is a local issue with no global significance. "The IAEA accuses Iran of research" is a long way from an active weapons program or functional device. Should they develop a weapon, admit to having a program, or have some
Vanunu style extravaganza then maybe, but for now, no. --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
21:22, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Strong support with a slight feeling of disbelief this has not been posted. What is wrong with people here? A "local issue with no global significance"? On that basis we may as well shut down ITN now since nothing is going to hit a significance criteria set that high. There is a world of difference between hostile countries alleging essentially without foundation that weapons development is in progress and the recognised authority that regulates these matters releasing formal finds of fact based on investigation and solid evidence.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
02:30, 20 November 2011 (UTC).reply
I don't know why it's not posted yet. Article is updated fine, I added the "ready tag" but it was
removed. Didn't realize noms weren't allowed to add it. Unless editors provide a serious rationale why this isn't ready to be posted I suggest an admin post it. Certainly more significant than Euroasian and NLD, events posted with far less support.
WikifanBe nice03:15, 20 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Wikifan, don't make me repeat myself. The issue is not support. As had been said several times, it's the fact that in none of apparently three relevant articles, there is no sufficient update. This is quite typical of the ITN process. News items get adequate support, but articles don't get updated -- even after being told that the roadblock is an update. Nominators simply argue that updates are sufficient, further delaying the nomination's addition to ITN, rather than just adding a couple more sentences. Greyhood said the article was insufficiently updated thirty-six hours ago. Instead of fixing that problem, you've just argued and badgered me about it. Yeah, so what if the article is very long? If anything, that makes putting a sufficient update easier as it won't take up an undue percentage of the article. And if this is so significant, surely it warrants a more lengthy explanation than, I don't know, the fact that Iran didn't let two inspectors into the country last summer. I don't need to "be explicit". We have guidelines that specifically state how long the update needs to be. It doesn't even meet that. This seems to be a very significant development in Iran's nuclear program, but the supposed update does not communicate that. In fact, it communicates little more than the proposed blurb. -- tariqabjotu08:31, 20 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment Okay Tariq. I have since added more to the article that hopefully meets the
criteria (greater than five sentences). Contributions include additions to the lead and a totally unique section. Hard article to edit considering the shape it is in. I don't know what can be added to IAEA. I don't think anything can be added to IAEA. So if there aren't any other issues I believe this can be posted now.
WikifanBe nice09:38, 20 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's comments: Currently the top world news at the BBC and has been covered extensively in the UK at least. This has been described as the Free Syrian Army's (made up of anti-government deserters) highest profile attack so far. It was made against the feared
Air Force Intelligence Directorate building in
Harasta and other targets in Zamalke, Hamuriya and Douma. The attack was well co-ordinated and planned and is the first on a major security facility in Syria, I feel this is a major development. Perhaps could be used as an amendment to the current blurb. --
Dumelow (
talk)
12:07, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose for now the current top story is about Syria and has been for DAYS, we're not going to post every little development in that conflict. Bombing has been routine over there this is nothing new, partially destroying a building (BTW "partially destroying" could mean that they just broke a window glass) is not exceptional and is still an unconfirmed report based on Syrian opposition claims (Remember how the Libyan NTC repeatedly lied about making major breakthroughs in the war?). Also I just realized that the current story featured seems wrong; the BBC says "The meeting is expected to ratify last week's vote to suspend Syria and also debate possible further measures against Damascus.",
[18] So basically what they did is agree on suspending but have not actually done so as of now. --
Tachfin (
talk)
15:46, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose based on article, neither bolded article has any substantial mention of the attack. --`
Golbez (
talk)
Comment This should have been posted months back, while this isn't the ideal incident to start posting, the commencement of the civil war which is closely foreseeable should be swiftly posted with a low consensus.
YuMaNuMa (
talk)
10:08, 17 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support obviously. As for whether the articles are ready - it's true that the updates for this specific events are minimal, but given that we haven't posted anything about the uprising except for the Arab League decision, a substantial part of the latter article can be considered updates of recent events. The article is also of exceptional quality (well-written and well-cited). JimSukwutput16:15, 17 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Usually, we don't write names in the blurb. However, if we omit the names, the blurb is too short. Yet again, we cannot say like ... with three astronauts.... as there are one astronaut and two cosmonauts. With 3 men sounds lame. Any other suggestion? Ready to post otherwise. --Tone16:56, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I may have forgotten something, but isn't the significance of this being the first docking with the station since the final Space Shuttle mission in July? That at least helps put this in perspective. --
MASEM (
t)
21:48, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
As far as i remember expeditions to ISS were made an exception unless it was more than just crew change. I am going to oppose this one since nothing significant has taken place that differs this Soyuz mission from last one or next one. This should not be ITNR --
Ashish-g5519:39, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
This is especially significant as there was consideration of having to abandon the station, because of the crash of an unmanned Progress cargo ship in August (mentioned in the above source). That they were able to successfully conduct this flight provides continuity of operations.
Mamyles (
talk)
20:01, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Progress and Soyuz missions are very different though. If the last Soyuz (TMA) crashed i would totally agree. Its quite a bit like saying a delta rocket crahsed so we should post the next shuttle launch (obviously ignoring significance of such launch). --
Ashish-g5520:06, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
When we were updating the space criteria I argued that routine crew rotation shouldn't be on ITNR. Consensus went against me, and they do indeed qualify under the new criteria. I obviously disagree with this, but it was what was decided at the time.
Modest Geniustalk21:37, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support - Significant for a number of reasons, including the fact that the USA is now hitching a ride to get to the ISS. Disagree that this should not be on ITNR; this is an important moment in international relations, and of major interest in the wake of previous talk of abandoning the station, as noted by Mamyles. I do agree that the article needs more than one sentence for the update.
Jusdafax20:51, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Question All the shuttle missions were on ITN, but were the Russian and Chinese manned missions as well? I remember at least one Chinese (their first I think) made it to ITN. I'm honestly just curious. --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
03:23, 17 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Pressure is applied to the Syrian government from many sides as
Turkey threatens to cut electricity to its southern neighbor, while the
European Union increases sanctions on the regime.
(CNN)
Chinese artist
Ai Weiwei pays 8.45 million
yuan in taxes after receiving a large number of donations from supporters who believe the debt was politically motivated because of his criticism of the Chinese government.
(CNN)
Police in the
English city of
Birmingham arrest four men in the
Sparkhill district in a major anti-terrorism operation.
(BBC)
Article updated The nominated event is listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: Never before made an ITN nomination, so please don't castigate me if I've caused some problems. Someone please fill in the "ITNR" and "minority" columns for me, because I don't know what they are. --
Nyttend backup (
talk)
22:51, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Ready Extensive article with considerable referencing. It is certainly better quality than the majority of election ITN/R we see on this page. While the election was 8 days ago, the official results have only just been released, on the 15th of November. I've removed the minority topic tag.
DeterenceTalk23:03, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support but the use of the term "disputed election" in the blurb does not seem right. There doesn't seem to be any allegation of fraud or irregularity, but the strong possibility of an effective voter boycott. I'm not sure how we succinctly express that, but we need to. --
FormerIP (
talk)
00:42, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Something other than the tables in the Results section would be nice. Perhaps a couple sentences or a paragraph summarizing the results? -- tariqabjotu02:15, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
What if we changed it to something like "is certified as the winner"? That would allow us to leave out the disputed part without sacrificing NPOV.
Nyttend (
talk)
03:08, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
EJS is reelected as the president as Tubman boycotts the second round? Not perfect either... However, I remember some time ago when we had the parliamentary election in Egypt, we just stated the winner and not the fact that the biggest opposition party boycotted the election. --Tone08:47, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Mistral's comment makes me wonder if we need to say that she was elected, since that's relatively old news: the news is that she's now known to be the winner. Couldn't we just ignore the question of dispute by concentrating on the announcement that she's the winner?
Nyttend (
talk)
12:29, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
This is not a long section, so I imagine it wouldn't take too much of your time to read what everyone else has said, including my still unanswered comment as to why this isn't up to standards yet. -- tariqabjotu20:37, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Considering our normal standards and the fact that this is an event with a whole 70K article dedicated to it, I'd say there is such a thing as over-fussy. --
FormerIP (
talk)
20:40, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Your attitude and Tone's capitulation still doesn't negate your laziness. The article does not mention the results in the appropriate section, which is the key news item here. ITN has taken quite the dive over the past several weeks. Posting the same types of trope articles with poor updates out of desperation because second-tier events with much better updates get shot down. Refusing to post poorly updated articles like these is not "over-fussy"; it's maintaining the quality of the section, which some people -- like, apparently, Tone -- are not willing to do. -- tariqabjotu21:48, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I don't get what the issue is. A table is as good as a paragraph for explaining who got what number of votes in an election. In fact, it's better, unless you're a fan of
extremely boring prose. We normally ask for a few lines of update, but here, we have paragraph after paragraph of a new article dealing with the elections. And this is our first news since fucking Saturday. I can agree with you about items being shot down, but blocking other articles as a response would be childish. I assume that's nothing to do with your trivial objection here. --
FormerIP (
talk)
23:33, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
You're tripping over yourself, and in doing so are proving my point. You basically say that because we haven't gotten any updates since Saturday, we should lower our update standards to push an article onto ITN (yeah, don't pretend as if I'm making up and raising standards as some sort of "response"). Like I said, I don't think that's acceptable. If there's any standard to lower in times of drought, it's the consensus standard. Our goal, after all, is to showcase updated articles, not showcase articles that everyone wants on the Main Page. So, well-updated updates with borderline consensus should take precedence over poorly updated articles with unanimity. And about tables... don't your remember your high school science teacher who docked points for failing to put a caption and title for your tables? This is the equivalent. Yeah, these tables have titles, but you need some context, an explanation, a paragraph explaining what the tables just put in numbers. It's not so difficult to put that together. And I fully intend to take Tone up on his offer to pull the item should this not be corrected in the next few hours. -- tariqabjotu00:45, 17 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Well, the results and all relevant info were in the introduction the last time I checked. Still, feel free to pull the item until the issue is solved, I don't mind. --Tone21:57, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support - significant story, article is clearly ready to go (a disagreement over the best way to present results really shouldn't prevent it going up).
Warofdreamstalk15:27, 17 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose I would be uneasy in supporting a nomination about the murder of an internationally famous celebrity, let alone the murder of a relatively unknown rugby player whose main claim to fame is based on the colour of his skin when he scored a try.
DeterenceTalk01:32, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
[Posted] First gas summit of the Gas Exporting Countries Forum
Nominator's comments: First summit of the organization which members have 2/3 of world natural gas reserves; continues movement towards "Gas-OPEC".
Beagel (
talk)
11:47, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support. The summit only has a few sentences in the article, but featuring the GECF is important and significant as an international development.
Mamyles (
talk)
12:38, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose based on article, the article is internally inconsistent (the map doesn't match the member list), and there's only 12 words devoted to the update, which demands a much more substantial treatment. Mamyles says featuring the GECF summit is important, and they may be right, but as it is the article doesn't explain what's special about the summit. Nothing sets it apart in the article from the 13 meetings before. --
Golbez (
talk)
13:28, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Updated. However, summit and ministerial meetings are not the same thing. The last (thirteenth) ministerial meeting was held on 13 November 2011, the first summit was held on 15 November 2011. Also, the map is correct except about Oman, which was accepted as a full member last Sunday. All other members and observers are correctly presented and correspond to the information in the article. Request have been made to update the map about Oman.
Beagel (
talk)
18:24, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Unsure, but leaning to oppose. It looks to me like the news is that a group a ministers that has met every year since 2001 has this year decided to brand its meeting a "summit" instead of a "ministerial meeting". --
FormerIP (
talk)
13:31, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment. The article was updated, and the summit is not just a re-brending of the annual meetings of the gas OPEC ministers, as Beagel has shown. This answers most of the concerns voiced above. As this is a minority topic, we may do with a lower level of consensus here, so marking [Ready].
GreyHoodTalk00:50, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose Here as in the nomination from yesterday. This is not front page material. It is "local police clearing a public space". The numbers involved in this specific incident is not enough to justify a notable front page news event, nor is the police behaviour more than would be normally expected under the circumstances. As has been mentioned before, no Occupy incident has yet been proven notable enough by the nominator for front page inclusion. This little local difficulty does not change that.
doktorbwordsdeeds11:08, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
"local police clearing a public space"? Your assessment is so utterly simplistic that it is bordering on the ridiculous. Or you are trolling.
DeterenceTalk00:41, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support in contrast to most of the OWS hooks we have seen posted, this is a significant development. The NYC camp is the flagship and the government shutting it down by force will be a game changer. A check with Google News shows that this shutdown in being covered in depth by basically every news organization.
JORGENEV11:26, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose. That "everyone else is covering it" does not make minor protest changes significant. Media are only covering these in depth because a small group would again complain loudly if it wasn't covered 100%.
Mamyles (
talk)
12:34, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Adding to my reasoning, this action is expected and used often with protests on private property. Protestors were breaking the park rules (camping), repeatedly warned and asked to leave by police & owners, then arrested for trespassing. The temporary eviction, to clean and prevent further camping, is not startling. Note that the legal rationale for eviction is trespassing, as owners explicitly asked police to conduct the operation.
I agree that these events are of diehard importance to a small group. This could qualify for ITN. However, the blurb now is heavily biased toward protestors. I would weakly support a blurb like "Occupy Wall Street protestors in NYC were temporarily evicted from Zuccotti Park by police for safety and trespassing violations," which is a neutral POV stating the fact, duration, and reason of eviction.
Mamyles (
talk)
03:49, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
That isn't anywhere close to being a "neutral POV stating the fact". For a start, the eviction is not temporary (and only the most gullible ever believed it was going to be temporary). As for the reason behind the eviction being public "safety", I didn't think anyone was naive enough to swallow that line.
DeterenceTalk04:06, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose based on article and nom - the article only states that on Nov 15, police started clearing it. Is it ongoing? Did they completely clear it? The article update is not sufficient for ITN. I would probably support if the update were more substantial. Also, the nom is issued in bad faith, apparently some people still can't get their lives past the fact that Joe Paterno got on ITN. --
Golbez (
talk)
13:32, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support correct me if I'm wrong, but we've posted protested from Greece, Spain, and the UK among others. Yet this doesn't a have a snowball's chance in hell despite its international coverage. Its CBC's and BBC's top headline yes, I realize everyone gets a different BBC headline and at some point we need to realize this isn't some minor fad. I'm not saying we need to post the minutia of it, but the clearing of the main camp does seem important.
Hot Stoptalk-
contribs13:47, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Suggestion: would it possibly make sense to combine the Portland one below with the NYC one here as a single blurb on the Occupy protests? --
MASEM (
t)
13:49, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support. Arguments based on describing something, removing the noteworthy elements from your description and then asking why the event is noteworthy are not valid. The same can be done with any event. This event is noteworthy because the world's media finds it so. It's not our role to second-guess. Plus we need to post something new. Note to Hotstop: I don't think we have posted Occupy protests from Greece, Spain and the UK. Those places are not in the US, after all. --
FormerIP (
talk)
13:53, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
lol I get it, we only post news from the US! that explains why we would never post about Syria, Italy, Mexico, Greece, Africa, or cars that aren't in NASCAR! --
Golbez (
talk)
14:15, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Note that Wikipedia is
not a newspaper, therefore what the media posts is not always relevant. ITN serves simply to bring significant event articles of wide interest to the community's attention. Events are notable when consensus here proves so.
Mamyles (
talk)
01:00, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment Look at our current ITN: we have one country-wide violent uprising that has been about to turn into a civil war for quite some time; three changes to major political players on three continents; one guy becoming the all-time greatest motorsport driver in world history; an extinction of a sub-species; and a minority topic from fine arts. Now just ask yourself: what has our New York's finest evicting 200 people from one place to another anything – just anything at all – to do with these other stories? It compares not even closely to them in significance, even if it is drummed by all media outlets 24/7. It might suffice as a counter-culture minority topic, but as counter-culture is almost always very much politically radical, I don't think that we, as an encyclopedia and a reference work, should dwell too deep down that road. I would be inclined to exclude anything having to do with political philosophy from the definition of a "minority topic," not only due to immerse problems with original research. It just somehow.. doesn't fit the dignity of an encyclopedia to post fresh news of (mostly young) people democratically protesting the police on its main page. I hope you can understand.. --
hydrox (
talk)
14:43, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Further Comment re:Hydrox It is worth understanding that Hydrox has nailed the issue on the head for this nomination and others. This eviction has been, gone, and disappeared in the night. It's already just another stale story amongst dozens (if not hundreds) in this on-going leaderless narrative that is the Occupy "movement". Wikipedia rightly gave prominence to the Arab Spring because the event had "Point A, Persons B and C, and Event D". Occupy has got every letter of the alphabet in a bag and refuses to even lay then out for inspection. This story is, as Hydrox says, "200 people evicted from a public place". And that's it. There's nothing more to the story, so why put it on the front page? I would go so far as to suggest that all Occupy story nominations are automatically shut-down by way of WP:SNOW.
doktorbwordsdeeds16:10, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment Suggest rebranding this. The occupy protests are being raided in many cities today (New York, Toronto, London), one month after the global day of action, and the overall shutting down of the occupations may warrant a posting in the very near future. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲτ¢17:05, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose - we can't post every new development in the occupy XY saga. Not really a newsworthy incident, given the small numbers of protestors involved.
Pantherskin (
talk)
19:35, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment - the rules are wrong here This story is a real problem for ITN. There is a global movement happening, and it's now at the stage where many instances of that movement are being closed down by authorities. (It has happened in my city.) No single instance of a close down will satisfy ITN guidelines. The Opposes above are technically correct. The real news is the fact that it's happening in many places, more or less concurrently. But no news outlets are reporting on it that way. They are all looking locally. We are the GLOBAL encyclopaedia, but for us to somehow combine instances here would be classic
WP:SYNTHESIS, and totally unacceptable according to our rules. But it is happening, and it's significant. Our rules are preventing us from telling the real story here. I don't know the solution.
HiLo48 (
talk)
20:01, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
There's
T:TDYK to bring attention to articles. In
Portal:Current events there are 5 specific incidents covered in the last week and a list of the articles about the occupy movement. People who want to know about it will just type Occupy (whatever) in the search box. We are not hiding the information.
Richard-of-Earth (
talk)
20:24, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
HiLo48, I couldn't agree more. And we're experiencing similar difficulties in ITN with nominations about the Syrian civil war, the Eurozone debt crisis and even Greece. Of course, it wouldn't be a problem if more editors would use a bit of common sense instead of wikilawyering every topic they don't like into oblivion.
DeterenceTalk23:07, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Strong Support - I don't understand the hate-on for the Occupy protests here. The end of the New York protest is significant. The movement was in ITN when it was born, now it's dead and deserves mention. --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
00:47, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Hi Mamyles, NYT says "judge upheld the city’s move to clear the park and bar the protesters from bringing back their tents or staying overnight".
[20] Whats your source? --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
01:18, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Protestors are in the park now, as shown by the image depicting police allowing them back, and the article you just quoted. They may not legally camp there, including tents, which was actually in the park rules (as set by the land owner) throughout the protests. That development is not really anything new.
Mamyles (
talk)
02:54, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
So they can no longer permanently occupy the park, just visit for a while, as per park rules. Sounds like the death of "occupy" wall street to me... The NYC movement, as it was for months, has been killed. Major shift, major story. --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
03:01, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment - I know ITN/C isn't a simple majority vote. I've seen numerous "occupy" events shot at in the last few weeks, including 1000s of protesters closing down the port of oakland. At the same time, I saw "Support support support, JoePa!". I don't get it. Anyway, kindly consider:
Comment I've heard more negative comments about Wikipedia in the preceding weeks than I have ever, due to the failure to cover this movement in ITN. Many users that do not understand how Wikipedia works think that the company/organization itself is censoring major news on this important movement. I submit my personal theory (and likely shared by more than a few) that this continued oversight is costing Wikipedia support.
el.nuevo.miguel17:24, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Seriously? The Occupy Wall Street protest is the FLAGSHIP protest that inspired similar protests by countless thousands of protesters in literally hundreds of towns and cities in every country in the Western world, and you cannot appreciate why this is "any different"? Ashishg55, it's taking a hell of a lot of personal self-control not to tear you a new one over that remark.
DeterenceTalk01:59, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
point i was making is many cities have same situation where people are being forced to leave. Just because New York was first one does not mean we need up to minute updates on ITN. And if i wasnt in good mood then i would be looking to get you blocked right now for that comment Deterence. --
Ashish-g5502:06, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
And we post lots of situations where people are being forced to leave. This was the seat of a movement which had off-shots in 100s of cities. Portland, Toronto, Miami, DC, and so on and so forth. It was the "Occupy Wall Street" movement, and now police have run them out at the end of a bayonet. That's a big difference from chasing the homeless out of downsview park. I do appreciate your restraint in the face of some passionate but clearly inappropriate remarks. --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
02:13, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment I'm a bit dismayed by the wall of Opposes here. Several people here seem to be setting the bar for the inclusion of Occupy Wall Street on ITN way too high. Yeah, we don't need to post every development in this event, but we haven't. We posted about this a month and a half ago, and that's about it. Even then, people complained this wasn't of international significance (especially because the previous event was even more minor and fleeting), just a localized hippie-fest. When it went global in mid-October, that wasn't sufficient. And, now, with the New York flagship protest dramatically dismantled (and note the eviction has now been upheld by a judge), that's not good enough either. It's fine if you still think this hasn't met your standards, but, frankly, short of the protesters being murdered, it seems some people just don't want Occupy Wall Street anywhere on the Main Page, often because of dismay with the movement (lack of organization, unclear goals, etc.). Okay, I got that. You don't have to support the movement. You don't have to think their protest is effective. You don't have to think the people involved are productive members of society who can't afford to put their lives on hold for days or weeks on end. But, you can't deny that the protest, and particularly last night's incident, has received international attention, even if it's not the most important event, or among the fifty most important events, happening in the world right now. For the umpteenth time, this section is called In the News, not What Should Be In the News. So, while it's okay to oppose this nomination, please don't be so closed-minded to nominations related to Occupy Wall Street or celebrities or Theme X because you personally don't think they're meaningful -- especially with ITN as stagnant as it is now. -- tariqabjotu02:30, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The events in NYC were boring. There was no bloodshed. Compare this when they took over the Port of Oakland (mayhem). If there was an ITN-able event from the OWS movement, it was the event in Oakland, not this. Unless of course they (the NYC occupiers) riot over this. –HTD03:37, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Yeah, I'm one of the guys who opposed this and yes, I've seen the threshold for ITN generally being pushed higher and higher over time. My personal guess for the reason is that notability being a subjective criteria, everybody has their own inherent bias and difference of opinion on how important a topic is, and when a nomination gets shot down for reason of lack of notability, this leads to situation where people think "You think X topic is not notable enough to cross the notability barrier? If that's where you are drawing the threshold, then I dont see how Y topic (which in my mind is far less significant than X topic) can cross that threshold." This has lead to the threshold being pushed further and further up with a something bordering on
crab mentality preventing nominations from going through. I cant really think of a solution to this.
Chocolate Horlicks (
talk)
07:09, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Given that your edit came over 12 hours after I made the above comment, and it still does not warrant a mention in the lead, it cant be a significant episode in the whole event. Therefore I stand my my OpposeMtking (edits) 06:28, 17 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The rhetoric that I used was not intended to be taken literally. Regardless, on what basis do you assume that these details do not warrant inclusion in the lead? Content contribution, or the lack thereof, is unrelated to the merit of a subject. And just to be clear here, we're talking about the confiscation of a
NBC reporter's press pass, an assault on a
New York Post reporter, the grounding of NBC and
CBS news choppers, and the arrests of reporters for the
Associated Press, the
New York Times and
NPR. I'd reason that if this many journalists encountered similar belligerence in virtually any other part of the world, it would be easily fast-tracked through ITN within a few hours time. — C M B J07:16, 17 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Therein lies the rub - if it happened in any other part of the world, those disgraceful acts (and unlawful acts, unless the 1st Amendment has been repealed in recent days) would not have been perpetrated by the NYPD. As we have seen in the past, the majority of editors in ITN have zero tolerance for anything that even hints at negativity or disrespect or anything short of 100% subservience towards their beloved American cops. Especially the NYPD. If ever you wanted a clear insight into the conservative demographic that dominates in ITN, it is the tantrums they throw whenever anyone dares to criticise an American cop.
DeterenceTalk07:34, 17 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment - let's address this more broadly I have begun a thread at
Wikipedia talk:In the news to address the fact that the rules won't let us talk about the whole Occupy movement here. Feel free to contribute. (Constructively please.)
HiLo48 (
talk)
04:22, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Strong support - The documented use of force against multiple professional journalists—anywhere in the world, and by any organized body—is automatic ITN criteria in my books. — C M B J05:46, 17 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The nominated event is listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
I didn't notice that the results were actually announced on Thursday. This could maybe just scrape in still, but perhaps it is stale. The article looks ready. --
FormerIP (
talk)
19:12, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Normally I'd say post it anyway, but the article looks pretty bad. The update's there, but the lead is a single sentence and most of the sections lack substance. Plus the fact that the result was no surprise. Nightw20:39, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose, seeing no information in article on this, nor the use of "chemical weapons" (I'm sure we could find a more hyperbolic term for 'tear gas' if we really tried.) --
Golbez (
talk)
15:07, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Well, now it's not, but as of the moment you made your nom it had no information that was in the nom. Striking my oppose as the primary reason was the lack of update, but I still don't think it qualifies for front page. --
Golbez (
talk)
15:42, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Not to be pedantic, but we made our edits in the same minute: 15:21 UTC. So it's reasonable for me to still see an unupdated article. Updates should occur before the nom. --
Golbez (
talk)
15:48, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose It is worth noting that almost none, if any at all, Occupy stories have ever made it to the front page. Consensus on this page has been very clear - this is a little local difficulty, it is not a front page news event. This development is just a small point in a largely self-generated story. Nothing in this story is worth giving credence.
doktorbwordsdeeds15:31, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
<e/c>Neutral - There exists a dissonance between
WP:ITN and the rest of Wikipedia mainspace regarding the notability of these events. According to the Occupy AFDs, they are considered notable enough to be posted, yet
WP:ITN consensus states that it is not. Should this dissonance perhaps be resolved?--
WaltCip (
talk)
15:56, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
AfDs discuss notability for mainspace retention: that is a lot lower threshold than ITN notability. If people are making comments at AfD about ITN-worthiness that is in the wrong place: this is where eligibility under those higher criteria are properly scrutinized. There is no inconsistency there.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
16:06, 14 November 2011 (UTC).reply
Oppose on neutrality concerns: the current blurb is part of the problem: it's simply too emotive and not remotely compatible with NPOV. I have similar concerns, albeit not a strong, about the actual article: I could easily run through it placing half a dozen issues templates and who knows how many "citation needed"s. The whole "chemical weapons" thing is problematic but so are the impact weapons comments. These are normal law enforcement tactics, and dressing up the story in hyperbole for political ends does not alter that.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
16:03, 14 November 2011 (UTC).reply
Support Despite being carried daily my all the major media outlets in the western world for many weeks, the Occupy protests have been virtually ignored by ITN. Sadly, I suspect (read: know damn well) that there are a lot more personal politics behind the opposition to posts about the Occupy protests than honest assessment of the ITNworthiness of the Occupy nominations - the votes of some editors on these issues are more predictable than the rising of the sun.
Golbez, Crispmuncher, etc, clearly, the use of the term "chemical agents" (which redirects to "chemical weapons") is rhetorical, bordering on hyperbole. As is the idiotic term "impact weapons". But, if you had done ANY reading on this matter then you would know that that is the ridiculous language used by law enforcement on the scene: "while officers used loudspeakers to warn protesters that anyone who resisted risked arrest and could be "subject to chemical agents and impact weapons"." I guess the mayor's PR office thought "chemical agents and impact weapons" sounded better than "our crack team of wife-beaters are going to stomp a bunch of hippies into the pavement with battons and tear-gas".
DeterenceTalk19:49, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
"ANY reading" Not my job. The article did not contain any reference to chemical anything so all I had to go on was the nomination; I had no reason to believe the hyperbole was caused by the police and not by the nom. When it was pointed out I clammed up but if you insist: I apologize for accusing the nom of hyperbole. (Though, it should have been contained in quotes, should it not? Especially since the nature of said agents exists solely in a statement and we don't know what these agents and impact weapons are?) --
Golbez (
talk)
20:06, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I agree with you 100% that the phrase "chemical agents and impact weapons" should have been in quotes. Especially given the provocative nature of such language. I have amended the blurb accordingly. As for not knowing what "chemical agents and impact weapons" the police use, I rather hope we all have better imaginations than that. Hint: the "impact weapons" are not feather dusters.
DeterenceTalk20:22, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
If you any reading you would have seen the blurb has been revised since my post: it did refer to "chemical weapons" which is a truly ridiculous stretch. However, my concerns stand: this is essentially a minor and routine detail of standard law enforcement practices. Putting in the blurb like that is still POV due to undue prominence. Are we trying to suggest police don't reach for their batons everyday when dealing with low-level disorder?
Crispmuncher (
talk)
21:48, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Of course I know the blurb has been revised. I revised it. Regardless, no one is denying that this is a routine behaviour by American cops. It is the scale of the Occupy movement that makes this development notable. Isn't that obvious?
DeterenceTalk22:42, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment on the blurb: There are no "U.S. riot police". I suggest omitting "U.S." altogether, or saying, "In the United States, ". Also, no hyphen in shut down. --
Golbez (
talk)
20:20, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose per
76.18.43.253... Seriously I'm neutral on this, but I believe a major protest (I have no idea if this one is) in a major country should deserve a mention sometimes, it's not as if it happens every other week. --
Tachfin (
talk)
01:39, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
What? Countless thousands of protesters in hundreds of towns and cities spread over every country in the Western world (and more than a few in the developing world). The only people who are still kidding themselves that this isn't a "major protest" (indeed, a contender for the biggest protest in the history of Democracy) are trolling Republicans. I'm a right-winger who treats
The Fountainhead like a bible and disagrees with 90% of the Occupy agenda, but even I'm not tarded enough to pretend this is a non-event.
DeterenceTalk03:00, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
But this nomination isn't about the thousands of protesters in hundreds of towns and cities spread over every country in the Western world (and more than a few in the developing world). It's about Riot (sic) police shutting down Occupy Portland. Yes, there is something global happening, and it is newsworthy, but I'm not sure how we include it here.
HiLo48 (
talk)
07:01, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose. I don't think the blurb is that bad, though I don't see a good reason to include the police's "threat" (how about mentioning some of the "kill the pigs" chants from the protesters?). But overall this event does not strike me as being particularly notable. JimSukwutput06:21, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose Updated Blurb Continuation of existing nominated story adds only that protesters are now being removed. This is a natural continuation of the story and does not add further credibility to the nomination or notability to the event. That a local police force are clearing a protest from a public space is not news, certainly not front page Wikipedia news
doktorbwordsdeeds09:33, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
At this point, I doubt that you would support an ITN nomination about the Occupy protests even if the NYPD charged in with tanks and opened fire on a group of hippy school children. Btw, I wasn't proposing a new blurb. I was quoting the BBC news source.
DeterenceTalk09:37, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Undercover British police officer
Mark Kennedy admits that, in the guise of an environmental activist, he was used by the police forces of 22 countries, was responsible for the closing down of the Youth House community centre in
Copenhagen, and committed two crimes on behalf of German police between 2004 and 2009, one of which was arson.
(The Guardian)
Oppose on the nominator not even making sure the proper article was linked, which implies the nominator didn't even see if the article was updated, which implies it can't make it onto ITN. --
Golbez (
talk)
15:08, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Now that we have a proper link, my vote stands: No assertion of notability made, I would say the article as it is would not survive AFD. --
Golbez (
talk)
20:23, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment: Its kicked up quite a row and the US apologizing isn't common. But the article and the blurb need some work. Also, "has his clothes removed", makes it seem like he was strip-searched, but reports say only his jacket and shoes were removed.
[31].
Chocolate Horlicks (
talk)
19:27, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose. In my opinion this isn't really news. Some important figure had to go through security checks most of the world submits to without incident. Beyond tabloid talk of US bias against India, I don't see why anyone should care.
Mamyles (
talk)
20:38, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Are you cracking a funny? Are you seriously suggesting that a former American President or the UK Prime Minister would be equally be subjected to such treatment?
DeterenceTalk19:54, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Shouldn't they be proud to take part in our wonderful security apparatus? If not, then aren't they saying that 'normal' American citizens, by virtue of not being elected or rich, are presumed guilty before innocent? I would say the bigger news would be if he was searched without regret, but sadly our government has already apologized for following the procedure it inflicts on everyone else who flies through our airports. With the apology it officially becomes a mistake in procedure that, at worst, has issued a minor insult upon a former leader. Shit happens; not news. Now, if India wants to make something of it, by withdrawing an ambassador or calling for sanctions, first the world will stare blankly at the stupidity of it, and then we would post it on ITN, because then it would be news. --
Golbez (
talk)
20:10, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I agree that former Presidents of India (and the USA) should be subjected to the same degrading and intrusive security measures as the rest of us. I just don't think that a former Indian President should be treated worse than a former UK Prime Minister.
DeterenceTalk20:26, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Then the news would be that the former British PM was not subjected to standard security screening, not that the former Indian president was. And that story is likely stale. --
Golbez (
talk)
20:30, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I think planes should be made out of glass and everyone should ride it naked.</sarcasm> Seriously though, this is greatly off topic. --
A Certain White Catchi? 22:16, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
Support This has been front page headline news in my part of the world for a day now. A name instantly recognised by all cricket fans who haven't just been sucked in by the frantic T20 trash.
HiLo48 (
talk)
19:16, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose Not a significant enough person, in my view. I agree that he was "one of the finest cricket writers of his generation" but I don't think that's enough. Also, about 60% of his biography is dedicated to controversies:
Peter_Roebuck#1986_controversy,
Peter_Roebuck#Assault_conviction, and the circumstances of his death. If he really was one of the greatest writers of his generation, a good biography would surely have more to say about it. --
Mkativerata (
talk)
19:26, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
So, we have "one of the finest cricket writers of his generation" dying in unexpected and dramatic circumstances, but that's not significant enough? I feel for all those current and aspiring cricket writers out there. None will ever appear here.
HiLo48 (
talk)
23:20, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose. I guess that Roebuck counts an internationally known figure, but not in recent years and not to the extent, IMO, that his death qualifies for ITN. Also, considering the circumstances of the death... --
FormerIP (
talk)
19:28, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
By "circumstances of the death...", are you referring to his apparent suicide? Developing media reports suggest that it wasn't just your average suicide. And even if it was, should it stop us listing him?
HiLo48 (
talk)
23:20, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Out of respect for the dead, I don't think we should go into it too much. But, reading media reports and our own article, people might read between the lines, rightly or wrongly, and make assumptions about Roebuck's personal life. we don't say anything that isn't sourced. But, all the same, I think we should not link the article from the front page whilst it is subject to likely speculation. --
FormerIP (
talk)
00:06, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oh, come on. There has been speculation about
Michael Jackson's death for the past two years, and we didn't stop posting about him. The seeming controversy about Roebuck's death makes this event more notable. And I really don't accept "Out of respect for the dead..." as a reason for leaving something out of an encyclopaedia.
HiLo48 (
talk)
01:22, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Who said anything about leaving it out of the encyclopaedia? Just not linking from the front page at a time when eyebrows are raised and the facts are not known. Probably a bit academic anyway, since the predominant view seems to be that Roebuck is too obscure in any case.--
FormerIP (
talk)
01:49, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose, he may be a former captain of
Somerset County Cricket Club, but he's not really globally notable: even within cricket circles, he's not a huge figure. As part of an
ongoing project I aim to significantly improve the article in the future, but as said above, the circumstances are getting murkier too. Harriastalk21:15, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Now that's just a silly thing to say so soon after we very rapidly posted about purely American college football paedophile story. Roebuck's story is far more international.(Even though we're told it doesn't have to be.)
HiLo48 (
talk)
01:24, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Not sure: my gut says, "No, he's not important enough, no one outside of cricket would care". However, Roebuck is clearly "widely regarded as a very important figure in his or her field" (from
WP:ITN/DC), that is, over 600 major cricket matches and one of the best known cricket writers of his generation. His death received attention in a number of countries over a number of days, so "lacks international significance" is hardly an argument.
IgnorantArmies03:30, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Some fields are limited enough that being a very important figure in that field is not enough. If there were a way of identifying the top journalist, or even top sports journalist, there might be a case for inclusion. If there were a way of categorising and tabulating influential ex-cricketers, there might be a case. But the narrow field of cricket journalism (and what grounds are there that he was outstanding in that field anyway), that is not enough. Oppose.
Kevin McE (
talk)
07:15, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Now, that's an idiotic post. Immediately after I posted a link to very clear evidence of how noteworthy this person and the event is, you say it's not. And I have seen several attempts here to post an old age death of someone famous, rejected precisely because the circumstances of death were not noteworthy. This time they obviously are. Now, I don't mind if this doesn't get posted after a sensible, objective discussion, but that post is rubbish.
HiLo48 (
talk)
09:27, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I'm grateful for your considered and well thought out response. I didn't say he's not "notable" as a person deserving an article here - I'm saying his death is not sufficiently noteworthy to be mentioned on the main page here. The fact that it's mentioned, somewhere probably not generally on the front page, in media in cricket-playing countries is not important. It's not a very big item of news. He was a sportsman and a writer who died. Happens all the time. Not important enough. "Idiot" =
Ghmyrtle (
talk)
09:35, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I'm the first to admit that cultural differences between people across the world can sometimes cause difficulties in communication, but in that little chat we've just had your responses seem to have been made as if you have read nothing of what I have just posted in each case. I find such things very frustrating, and shall leave our little chat with that comment.
HiLo48 (
talk)
10:15, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose--Kevin McE pretty much nails it for me. Even if he is one of the 'best ever cricket journalists' that's a narrowly defined field.--
Johnsemlak (
talk)
17:39, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment It cracks me up that the strongest opposition to any ITN nominations about cricket usually come from the most passionate advocates of ITN nominations about American football, which inevitably have considerably less international notability.
DeterenceTalk00:44, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The largest favela of Brazil cleared of drug gangs
Nominator's comments: Seems a notable development. Brazilian favelas are ill-known around the world as bastions of crime, and the event is a major sign that the situation is changing.
GreyHoodTalk11:33, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment - Historically and in contemporary criminological studies, drug sweeps decrease the crime rate in the short term, but in the long term cause a rebound that results in a return to the original crime rate (perhaps even slightly higher). This is why I would be hesitant to post a news story such as this as it most likely would have no lasting effect.
Oppose - No mention of it in the Rochina article. If the police operation itself were noteworthy, perhaps that operation should have an article which could be nominated. --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
16:28, 13 November 2011 (UTC) Good faith anonymous editor. I'm not a troll. Please don't revert my commentsreply
Support. Notable by itself and even more notable considering the context. This is likely to have a significant effect on whether the euro will survive, evident by the stock market reactions today. JimSukwutput03:00, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
He's a Prime Minister, not a President. The resignation of a Prime Minister does not entail that a new election will take place. Under Italy's system of government, the new Prime Minister would usually chosen by the
caucus of the former Prime Minister's political party, and even that is subject to the coalition agreement and that party remaining the dominant political party within a coalition government.
DeterenceTalk08:11, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Agreed that a new govt could be formed, but after his meeting with napolitano yest theres an even chance pf elecions partuicualrly at a time like this when its harder to command a majority govt. lets wit and watch.
Lihaas (
talk)
08:28, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Conditional Support only when he is no longer prime minister anymore. These sorts of situations change very rapidly, and politics is a funny business. If and when he isn't the PM, it should end up on ITN. However, the sort of political negotiations going on which may lead to him resigning if certain conditions are meant is not the sort of thing which normally makes ITN. --
Jayron3207:30, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Wait until he actually resigns. The key point is when he goes, and he's ducked out of promises before. I refrained from nominating this myself for that exactly reason. Waiting also gives time for a proper update to be written.
Modest Geniustalk09:21, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose until such time a successor is appointed: that is usually the convention on ITN. It shouldn't be very long either, most commentators are expecting a new government before the markets open on Monday at the latest.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
23:00, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Hate to take a jump start on that debate, but no I don't think that's the case here. Unlike election results, we usually do not post resignations or appointments, unless generally notable. We already posted the resignation of Berlusconi, but the nomination of his successor would not normally merit a mentioning. --
hydrox (
talk)
21:52, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Article:No article specified Blurb: Seven people are killed in an attack on the city of
Taraz in southern
Kazakhstan. It is one of the worst attacks in the country's history. (
Post) News source(s):BBC
Oppose, for now: What type of attack? Who did the attacking? Blurb needs to be re-written. Even so, seven deaths is peanuts in comparison to what is usually posted on here.
IgnorantArmies03:40, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's comments: Following earlier calls to end the violent crackdown, Arab League seems to be now putting some real pressure on Syria. --
hydrox (
talk)
13:57, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
True. However, Syria can avoid the suspension by stopping the crackdown. Although this is not likely to happen, the blurb then would be incorrect. As of now, the Arab League only threatened to suspend Syria. --
bender235 (
talk)
16:33, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Well, technically correct yes, depending on which is your source.
AJE thinks Syria is only being threatened at this stage, while
CNN formulates it "move takes effect Wednesday". Most sources seem to share CNN's view. --
hydrox (
talk)
16:37, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Jassim al-Thani said Syria will be suspended by 16 November if it does not implement the Arab peace deal that it previously agreed to. That's a fact, not a matter of interpretation. If Assad implements the plan (which is highly unlikely, tho), Syria will not be suspended on Wednesday. So let's wait until Wednesday and see what happens. --
bender235 (
talk)
18:55, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Strong support, as Syria is definitely doing something wrong with international implications. The news is the decision to suspend, so I would prefer immediate posting.
Mamyles (
talk)
15:39, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment - While tempted to support on the face of the importance of the news, is it consensus here that a three sentence update way down in the article (3.2 Reactions -International) is enough? I'd like to see a bit more of an update prior to posting this on the Main Page, and perhaps a brief mention in the lede.
Jusdafax16:58, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
"Rebels act at least as violently as the government" is a bit of an overstatement as far as I know, as the government forces are the ones killing civilians. But you are right – there are some armed factions too among the rebels – so "civilian uprising" is not correct. I've changed the blurb. --
hydrox (
talk)
19:19, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Over 1000 security officers have been killed. This is not in dispute. But the government says rebels are responsible while the protesters say they're in fact killed by the government. Doesn't matter which side you believe, this is clearly not as simple as government shooting civilians. JimSukwutput03:09, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support. International agreement to end crackdown; crackdown continues; Arab League suspension...sounds familiar? This is definitely notable, regardless of what the Syrian government decides to do. JimSukwutput03:06, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Article needs updating The nominated event is listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: APEC meeting this weekend (12-13 Nov). The article needs some serious work, but this is an ITNR item. I hoping that this nomination will encourage editors to improve the article for a story they might otherwise not have been aware of.
Modest Geniustalk12:39, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Would be an interesting item indeed. However, it would be nice to have a separate article on the artwork, as is usually the case when we feature works of art. --Tone13:28, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Done. The article's a stub so obviously needs expansion and if we could keep some eyeballs on it for now as I'd worry someone might nominate it for deletion.--
Johnsemlak (
talk)
16:35, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The article says this occurred on November 8, which is earlier than our oldest item on ITN now. Any reason it shouldn't be dated as November 8? -- tariqabjotu03:01, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
True. The oldest item in the ITN box dates from November 10. Too late then... Still, as the new article is well written, I suggest it is taken to DYK. --Tone09:49, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I don't see the need to be absolutely strict with keeping the ITN template in chronological order. I suggest we give this event at least a little more front page time that it will likely receive by dropping one or two items off of the bottom prior to dropping this one. The sale may have happened on 8 Nov, but it remains the record setting sale still obviously, and more to the point remains of interest to readers.--
Johnsemlak (
talk)
06:01, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose Awards are a reasonable thing to post for the arts or sciences, where there is no other formal top level competition. By definition, each sport has a way of determining its best in direct competition, and that is the result that merits consideration here.
Kevin McE (
talk)
13:45, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Actually, in the case of athletics (except marathons), we don't post the results of any regular competitions, unlike, say football (of any code). We only post the setting of world records.--
Johnsemlak (
talk)
14:31, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
2011 Syrian uprising: 250 Syrians, mostly civilians, have been killed so far this month, as the violence escalates in Syria's eight-month-old crackdown on
pro-democracy protests and attacks on security forces increase.
(CBC)(MSNBC)
The former Prime Minister of
UkraineYulia Tymoshenko, already serving a seven-year sentence for abuse of office, is charged with tax evasion, theft and concealing foreign currency revenues.
(Reuters)
Sidney Nsubuga Enoch is jailed for 35 years in
Uganda for the murder of gay activist
David Kato in January.
(Reuters)
Comment: Not an oppose or anything, but the article as a whole gives a lot of weight to his death. I'm not saying that the section should be reduced or anything, but perhaps additional parts about his life could be expanded as well. SpencerT♦C19:47, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Certainly undue weight, but that's a sign of missing content on his earlier life, not that his death is overplayed. Not really surprising in an article which didn't even exist before he died.
Modest Geniustalk13:36, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Neutral I really like Black Sabbath, but this is not so important. Actually 33 years are pretty long, but as a "band full of old men" I am afraid they won't do the music they did in the prior years.--
♫GoP♫TCN11:53, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Article:Sébastien Loeb (
talk·history·tag) Blurb:
Sébastien Loeb (Citroën) becomes the first driver in any discipline of motorsport to become World Champion for the eighth consecutive time. (
Post) News source(s): BBC, AJC, WSJ etc Credits:
The nominated event is listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Normally the bold link would go on the article for this year's event, but that is just a big data table and the eight-in-a-row is a major part of the story so I've put the bold on Loeb.
Modest Geniustalk23:20, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose for now. There aren't that many casualties, and it seems like most of them occurred over a week ago. I don't even think this should be made into a single article - how are floods in Ireland and Italy three weeks apart related? JimSukwutput22:21, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
American soldier convicted for leading a rogue "kill team" in Afghanistan
Oppose - similar stories have been posted at ITN already, and compared to the other big news stories it does not make headlines outside the US. In any case, could Deterence refrain from abusing ITN as a soapbox? It's not helpful.
Pantherskin (
talk)
09:03, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
bickering
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Support on notability, but currently oppose because the update is too slight - one sentence and bare URL references. The blurb could be phrased in a less emotive style as well. The Baha Mousa case is the nearest comparable case I can think of and there are significant differences to that: at first glance this to be deliberate premeditated murder as opposed to poor training and getting carried away.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
09:43, 11 November 2011 (UTC).reply
We're now up to two sentences for the update. There's been a certain amount of clean up throughout the article but that is all the updated element amounts to. A two sentence update isn't enough to be collectively boasting about on the front page.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
02:36, 12 November 2011 (UTC).reply
This is one of those cases where the event is clearly notable but makes it hard to come up with more than a few sentences of updates. I personally think the article is suitable for posting. Note that we're not just posting the convictions on their own, but the convictions as the culmination of the entire scandal. JimSukwutput03:14, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Not ready: this update is still pitiful. ITN is not a news ticker - it's very reason for existence is to highlight new content. If there isn't a lot we can say about an event that is not reason for for posting without a minimal update: it is a very good indicator we shouldn't be posting in the first instance. While people are still trying to fudge this issue I'm firming up to an oppose.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
15:30, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Strong support. I'll be frank here: If you don't think war-time convictions for soldiers going on a rampage killing random civilians is more notable than two three-year sentences for corporate spying, you got your priorities fucked up. JimSukwutput20:17, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Possible support but something needs clarifying. Is today's news about one in a series of convictions, some of which have happened, more of which will follow? That would tend to make it less significant in itself. --
FormerIP (
talk)
20:27, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment The 'for sport' bit of the suggested post doesn't actually appear in the article and seems rather tabloid (though it does appear in some of the references used in the article).
Nick-D (
talk)
00:31, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Well of course can an inauguration of a person that can send an army half a world a away (
for a minimum of 60 days) is equal in every aspect to an inauguration of a person that can't even send his 10,500-man army without consent of the UN General Assembly, which the first person has veto power. –HTD19:42, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I don't know if it would be better to include the ethnic makeup of the victims or their occupations in the Blurb as the victims are generally members of ethnic minorities as well as two police officers. --
A Certain White Catchi? 11:37, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
Is there something particularly significant about these murders that I'm missing? We can't go posting every serial killer, and the article is very short. Besides, we normally wait for convictions, for obvious
WP:BLP reasons.
Modest Geniustalk14:58, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Plenty of content exists on multiple sources and I would welcome any help in the writing of this article. It isn't an ordinary "serial killing" as it involves neo-nazi ties and the targets are ethnic minorities in Germany according to the prosecutor. I need not explain why this is significance beyond that I hope. :) We could indeed wait for the actual conviction, as event is fairly new after all. --
A Certain White Catchi? 17:14, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
de:Mordserie Bosporus has more info it seems. I would also like to point out BLP isn't a worry since the names of the suspects are unknown to the public. Also the news has been upgraded to bbc main page "New German neo-Nazi probe arrest" at
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ --
A Certain White Catchi? 22:51, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
Strong Support - not just run of the mill serial murderers, but apparently right-wing terrorists targeting ethnic minorities. That, and that several murder cases previously believed to be unrelated are connected. Given that the two main suspects are dead no point in waiting for convictions.
Pantherskin (
talk)
18:31, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Suicides seems to have happened in an unrelated event where a bank robbery heist failed on 4 November a week prior to the woman turning herself in. This just gets better and better --
A Certain White Catchi? 17:31, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
Opposition activists claim that at least 38 people, including six children, have been killed by security forces across
Syria: 16 in the city of
Homs, 10 in
Idlib, six in
Hama, three in the suburbs of
Damascus and three in
Daraa.
(CNN)
Business and economy
Hinchingbrooke Hospital in the English county of
Cambridgeshire becomes the first
NHS hospital to be run by a private firm. Healthcare partnership Circle has been awarded a ten-year contract, and will take over administration of the hospital – which has heavy financial debts – in February 2012.
(BBC)
Support. Article updated. All over the European news networks, and mentioned worldwide. "Rainbow Warrior" part 2, with it being France as well.
Black Kite (t)00:22, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support - Big news when energy officials are sent to jail for spying on activists. Of interest to a broad readership no matter what one's feelings are on the topic.
Jusdafax00:54, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Strong Oppose. I don't care how much publicity this gets, the case is completely trivial by itself. We have in numerous occasions decided not to post incidents where dozens were killed. We let the Nigerian killings a week ago - where hundreds were murdered by terrorists - turn stale. And we posted almost nothing about the financial crises that went through the Eurozone and now imperiling Italy. Yet here we're discussing about two convictions for spying on anti-nuclear activists - and in a country where nuclear energy is not a contentious political issue. I can't help but think some of us are projecting our personal political views into the matter and being overly concerned about what we want Wikipedia readers to see, and not what is objectively notable. JimSukwutput01:48, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
One that involves a child sexual abuse scandal involving at least eight kids over 15 years, and the resignation of the president of a major public university. More important than two corporate spies getting jailed, right? JimSukwutput02:22, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Corporate agents convicted and imprisoned for spying on a lawful protest movement (something that happens once in a blue moon) has significantly more ITN notability than yet another resignation by an administrative bureaucrat and a football coach in a sex scandal (of the type that happens countless times every day).
DeterenceTalk06:00, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Go to any court in any country and you'll see sexual assault cases being heard every day. How many trials have you seen where big business from the nuclear energy industry is accused of spying protesters?
DeterenceTalk07:34, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
They didn't actually spy on protesters. They hired a private intelligence company to monitor some campaign activists. The intelligence company went over the line by hacking into the activists' computers, and the judge thought that the energy corporation should be held responsible for this. I won't comment on whether his decision has merit, but this is clearly nothing as notable as the blurb and news stories seem to indicate. JimSukwutput20:23, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose - misleading to claim that this is all over the news, given that it is a minor story on BBC, and not on the main page of the Guardian at all, etc. And where is the article? Should certainly not appear in the EDF or Greenpeace article per WP:UNDUE and WP:RECENTISM.
Pantherskin (
talk)
07:49, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support Now that we have a precedent with the college football story, this minority interest event which covers an international company, spying, the environmental movement and foreign justice is clearly credible, recent, and relevant for inclusion on the front page.
doktorbwordsdeeds08:38, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The recently whined-upon college football story was not in ITNR, and the WSOP blurb was first tested in ITN/C and should be removed from ITNR once it goes stale and never gets to be posted. –HTD10:30, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Actually, there are plenty of precedents (e.g. we post elections not inaugurations, results of tournaments not their openings, standard ways of phrasing things etc.). But what on Earth does the Penn State have to do with setting any precedent whatsoever? Or any relevance to ITNR?
Modest Geniustalk17:13, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
There's nothing similar to the Penn State event and this. Posting back-handed objections to the Penn State story here as 'support' for this is not helpful for consensus building.--
Johnsemlak (
talk)
17:19, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Are you serious? Supporting other nominations out of spite because you disagreed with a decision made on a previous nomination is considered proper behavior now? Grow up. JimSukwutput20:19, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Done by myself and
User:FormerIP. This could be en interesting one, actually; clearly a more notable story than some random sports coach in America, yet msy be declined; a pretty good poster child for an RFC on
WP:ITN if it goes like that.
Black Kite (t)19:22, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose While I do find this an interesting item, the complete lack of significant news coverage for this makes me wonder how significant it is. There's no mention on the BBC 'Europe' page, nor in the
Russianpress. As I said above the Paterno comparisons are very unhelpful, and for me (not in the US) the Paterno story is still linked on the BBC website and is a top 10 read story, unlike this.--
Johnsemlak (
talk)
01:25, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Not sure why you are looking particularly at the Russian press, but this is a two day old story now so I don't think seeing it not listed as a main story today tells us very much. It was the main story on the BBC's Europe page at the time. --
FormerIP (
talk)
01:32, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Fair enough. But I doubt that the story was not reported in Russia. Just that it is not among the top stories two days after the fact. --
FormerIP (
talk)
01:53, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's comments: Obviously notable. Some serious facepalming will result if anyone opposes this nomination. Credit where it is due, I was given a heads-up by anon IP 94.69.50.81 that this announcement was coming.
DeterenceTalk12:56, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Obvious support, but the article is a bit lacking. It's just academic background, then suddenly he becomes prime minister. If he really was such a massive outsider from the political process, then surely there's something to say about that? If not, there seems to be content missing.
Modest Geniustalk15:14, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The fact that he's an outsider indicates there's less to be said about his political experience. I agree a better transition can be made in the article, but I don't see a significant problem. JimSukwutput17:07, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Hold for now Two sentences and a single reference don't amount to a minimal update. At the very least there's plenty of additional context to the appointment that we can include.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
17:46, 10 November 2011 (UTC).reply
Support - If he is sworn in, this blurb is good to go on the Main Page. Update is thin but should be enough and will be added to in the next hours and days.
Jusdafax17:46, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment While it would be impractical to make an ITN post every time a species becomes extinct, one may chauvinistically suggest that the extinction of a rhino species is more notable than the extinction of less awesome species'. At the very least, this deserves a post in DYK.
DeterenceTalk06:44, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment - I want to support this but the article is barely beyond a stub, and needs considerable expansion. However the importance is undeniable... at the risk of stating the obvious, extinction is forever, and this was a notable and very large mammal.
Jusdafax06:57, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Reluctantly oppose: I would support the extinction of a large vertebrate species, but this is only a subspecies. It is essentially the local extinction of Diceros bicornis from part of its range that has been announced, and that, while sad, is not big enough.
Kevin McE (
talk)
07:19, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support, but only if the blurb says 'extinct in the wild'. It still exists in captivity. (this was based on a misreading of a news report, sorry) Whilst we certainly can't post every extinction, rhinos have long been synonymous with conservation efforts, so I think losing this subspecies is symbolically important.
Modest Geniustalk09:56, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose per Kevin McE. This is one of four subspecies of one of five species of rhinos, and many of the other species are not actually endangered. JimSukwutput17:13, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support Despite its being a subspecies, it's still as said above almost a poster-animal for conservation. It was the most notable part of the recent IUCN update.
Chipmunkdavis (
talk)
18:52, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Black Rhinoceros now has this content, albeit in quite a short section. Not ideal, but this seems to have plenty of support and despite what the timer says we haven't posted a new story for more than 24 hours. Marking ready.
Modest Geniustalk17:19, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
This is not the complete item but Greece is about to have a new Prime Minister after the resignation of the current Prime Minister. Be ready in the next minutes for the official announcement. Journalists in Greece are already sure. --
94.69.50.81 (
talk)
11:27, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
A survey of businesses and consumers in
Wales indicates widespread support among both groups for the country to have its own
top-level domain name.
(BBC)
Floods are predicted to enter the centre of
Bangkok early next week, and have already affected nearby roads and sewage systems, according to the Thai Flood Relief Operations Command (FROC).
(The National)(Bangkok Post)
The first ever national test of the
Emergency Alert System occurred on this date, at 2:00 p.m. EST. This test was transmitted with the
Emergency Action Notification code, and was testing the ability to transmit a national-level emergency alert, such as a nuclear attack. This test failed, with 2 other Primary Entry Point (PEP) radio stations relaying the alert over the original alert itself, creating an echo effect. One of the overlaying PEP stations were
WCCO (AM), and the other one cannot be determined. However, the issues in this alert have (mostly) been fixed.
Dutch scientists build a
nanoscopicelectric car made of a single complex
molecule. Currently the world's smallest vehicle, the nanocar is capable of travelling small distances when an electric current is applied to it.
(BBC)(AdelaideNow)
The story is already halfway down the template and this conversation's productivity is starting to wane, and our efforts could be better spent on other nominations on this page. If it really must be discussed further, take it to
WT:ITN.
Ks0stm(
T•
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nominator's comments: Obviously becoming one of the biggest scandals in the history of college sports, if not sports in general. Affects one of the most legendary and beloved coaches in the history of the game. Should be mentioned in passing, even if we have to wait until Parteno officially reigns.
Secretaccount19:46, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Can I just prevent the inevitable removal of the ready tag by Lihaas by kindly asking him let another user judge if it really not is ready? –HTD05:55, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment: I won't go so far as to say the articles aren't updated, but I would say they could use with a bit more substantial updating...perhaps a couple lines in Paterno's article about outside reactions to his announcing of his retirement.
Ks0stm(
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Neutral Please avoid the word "winningest" in the blurb if possible. It may be established among US sports writers, but it looks very odd to the rest of us. /
Coffeeshivers (
talk) 4:24 pm, Today (UTC−5)
Oppose Even though there were pre-emptive strikes against what I'm about to write over in
Wikipedia talk:In the news, one really must still ask what impact will this have outside an amateur sport of interest only inside the USA? Maybe a sound answer to this question could even sway my vote, but hyped up garbage like "...if not sports in general" from a nominator never will. That just demonstrates a complete absence of global perspective.
HiLo48 (
talk)
21:59, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I agree with some of that sentiment. I couldn't care less about this story since I've heard precisely nothing about it, but I was tempted to oppose simply because of those WT:ITN comments. Attempting to portray opposers as unreasonable even in advance of a nomination is extremely bad form. The fact it was felt necessary suggest weaknesses in the case for posting, not that it is somehow exceptionally meritorious.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
01:58, 10 November 2011 (UTC).reply
I don't think Jayron and HTD meant to offend anyone or question anyone's motives. I think they were just feeling trepidation that we were about to have the "American sports argument" for the 500th time. --
Mwalcoff (
talk)
02:17, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment It is very difficult for an outsider to judge the notability of a scandal involving a leading figure in a sport that only really exists in one country. But, this does look like a simple criminal/ethics issue of the sort that occurs countless times every day. Such items are not worthy of ITN, no matter what sport/industry they tarnish (with the obvious exception of leading public officials). Oh, for the love of God, do not use the word "winningest" if you wish to be taken seriously. I won't oppose this item candidate for ITN, if for no other reason than it illustrates what a douche-bag this "legend" really is for standing back and letting a co-worker continue to sexually assault children.
DeterenceTalk22:21, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Well the New York Times and National Public Radio are comparing it to the Catholic church scandal
[36],
[37] the Associated Press is saying that no college scandal can compare to this
[38], and so forth.
98.64.181.93 (
talk)
23:21, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Paterno being the highest paid state employee wouldn't be news, since the same situation exists in many states across the U.S. Though their salaries, like Paterno's, aren't paid by taxes or public money.
Boznia00:59, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
No...it's fairly straightforward. Athletic department revenues from ticket sales, TV contracts, etc, and donations from private citizens to the athletic department pay their salaries.
Boznia05:33, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support Let's face it...he's a legend in the sport. No coaches in the sport have ever had more success than him. I would support his retirement even if it wasn't with these extra newsworthy circumstances.
Ks0stm(
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Neutral If this ends up on the main page, please take the word "winningest" out, to people outside the US it sounds like a "word" a five-year-old would make up because they don't know any different, and there are far better ways of phrasing it.
Black Kite (t)23:50, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support. This is huge. It was the lead story on all three network news broadcasts today. It's the top story in the New York Times and there are 13,388 Google News hits. Joe Paterno is possibly the best-known living sports coach in America and the most famous person in Pennsylvania. ("The King of Pennsylvania" according to an NYT headline.) He's been in charge of one of America's biggest football programs since 1966. Jayron suggested on the talk page it would be like
Alex Ferguson resigning due to a sex scandal in the UK. This story is far from over -- the whole university administration may go down. But there's a lot of reader interest in this now, the story is getting a ton of media play and there won't be a better single point at which to put it on ITN. There were
85,000 hits for
Joe Paterno yesterday. Waiting until January when far fewer people are looking for information on this would be kind of dumb. By the way, by "winningest" they mean he's won more games than any other coach in major college football.
I sort of guessed what the word means, but it's not used anywhere outside of US sports journalism and it looks lazy and unprofessional - if you need to say that someone has won more games than anyone else, then say it. This is the Main Page of a top ten website, not a sports blog. Also "agrees to step down in the end of the 2011 Penn State football" isn't even grammatically correct either.
Black Kite (t)00:01, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Bleh, I thought winningest was a very common term in the English language, until I saw the spell checker on Firefox, it's used all over sports journalism that's why I got so used to the word. I was typing the blurb on Internet Explorer at my work place as well, so I didn't double check. I agree that Mwalcoff blurb is better.
Secretaccount00:19, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
...and maybe that highlights the whole problem with this nomination. It reads like tabloid sports journalism. I cannot imagine the resignation of a coach in my country's biggest football code being nominated here, no matter what the reason. Yes, it would be big news here, even on the front page of the tabloid papers, but I would not expect any American editor to support it.
HiLo48 (
talk)
00:29, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Umm... This is on the front page of the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal. It's in The Christian Science Monitor. It's on Bloomberg. It led all three network news shows, as mentioned above. These are all very "serious" media, not tabloids (or sports media). This is not your typical sports story, any more than the Catholic Church abuse scandals were your typical religion story. --
Mwalcoff (
talk)
00:48, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I dunno; as someone said above, if this story is equivalent, say, to
Alex Ferguson being implicated in something similar, then fine ... having said that, that story would be front page news not only in the UK but most of the way round the world, as opposed to only in the US.
Black Kite (t)00:46, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Well, not in the US... But anyway, I think what Jayron meant was this is as big in the US as Ferguson resigning due to a scandal involving raping children would be in the UK. There's no question that Ferguson is a bigger figure globally than Paterno is, but we're still way past the threshold in terms of enough reader interest for the Paterno/Sandusky item to fly. Yes, half our readers don't care, but I'm sure 90% of them don't care about the NYC marathon or Russian unmanned space mission. --
Mwalcoff (
talk)
00:51, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Nothing in any country, IMO, should be included in ITN if it is not cared about - in the broadest sense; I'm not necessarily saying it has to be major news - in any other country. --
FormerIP (
talk)
01:46, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Well, I disagree about that... If we can post an item that is of interest to 5% of Wikipedia readers spread across the world, I think we can post something that is of interest to 25% of the readers even if they're all in one country. But anyway, Canada is a separate country. And one of the rationales for ITN is to point out to readers articles they might not have been looking for but are quality content that may turn out to interest them. I think this story fits that bill for Europeans. --
Mwalcoff (
talk)
01:52, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
You will not find this story anywhere in any print editions of serious UK or European newspapers. It's a story that has not left the US, other than here. So, your statement is pretty accurate.
doktorbwordsdeeds01:15, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I'm sure many of our readers would be offended at the notion that nothing in America is important unless Europeans care about it. Would you say nothing in Europe is notable unless Americans care about it? We can say goodbye to the annual Eurovision entry then. --
Mwalcoff (
talk)
01:19, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Changing the blurb to reflect the latest news. Press conference shown live on CNN. Currently the lead story on websites of CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, ABC, CBS, Wall Street Journal, USA Today... --
Mwalcoff (
talk)
03:32, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support - Paterno is an icon of college football, and either his dismissal or the scandal would be notable enough individually to justify inclusion. Add them together, and it's almost a no-brainer. --
Bongwarrior (
talk)
03:51, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support The football angle isn't all that vital here; this is the 10th largest university in the U.S., one of the
Public Ivies and the coverup to this scanadal has led to the firing and resignation of the University President, Athletic Director, several other prominent officials, and, incidentally, JoPa. The Beeb thinks it important enough, given
this story is running on their
main page right now. Worldwide interest is demonstrated, article is decent, I say run with this. --
Jayron3204:10, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
How many times do I have to point this out? The BBC tailors its front page based on IP geolocation. Just because it's on the front page in your country does not mean it is anywhere else in the world. It's not even at the top of the US/Canada section as seen from the UK.
Modest Geniustalk10:09, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
This skips the sports angle altogether; this is so much bigger than sports that I don't think that should be emphasized here at all. This is about a major sex abuse scandal that has brought down the entire administration of a major university. --
Jayron3204:31, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support I believe that the firing of the most successful coach in NCAA history - who served as head coach for 46 years at one of the ten largest universities in the United States - is notable enough for itn. If there was a football equivilent I do not believe there would be so much protests. The fact that he does not coach professional football is irrelevant, in my opinion, as he argurably was more well known than most NFL coaches. As for the international criteria, this has made headlines all across Canada (both the abuse scandal and his resignation/firing). --
PlasmaTwa204:27, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose This is essentially a US domestic story, not of wider interest, so the bar has to be higher as a consequence, and we're not even talking about professional sport here. Would this even be considered if it was the Oxford or Cambridge rowing teams? I strongly doubt it and college sport doesn't get any higher profile than that. The current headline is a mess and too broad a target to consider too. Where is the main bold article? We have no idea. How then can we consider it? At the very least the headline needs trimming for length and the number of links trimming. The very last thing that should be done is wedge yet something else in as suggested above. If you have to link too many terms that implies a lack of familiarity with the story is expected from the users, in which case that surely weakens the very case for inclusion.
Flying Llamas (
talk)
04:24, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
If this counts, it's a trending topic on Twitter in the U.S., Canada and Mexico. That's like 84% of the population of North America. College sports does have a higher profile in the U.S. (and a few other countries) than in the UK; for example, college football games have higher TV viewership than the
Stanley Cup Finals. The article on
Joe Paterno had
85.4k views yesterday. –HTD04:36, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment Why are people quoting hit-counts as if they have any relevance? I guarantee that the Britney Spears or Kim Kardashian hit-counts would dwarf them all - does that mean we'll be posting Kim Kardashian's divorce on ITN?
DeterenceTalk04:59, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support. I think it's surprising that this story received so much frontpage attention in the U.S. I think we have way too many sports-related items on ITN. I think it's ridiculous that the highest paid state-employee in Pennsylvania is a football coach. But none of that has anything to do with this item's notability, which IMO is fairly well-established. JimSukwutput05:11, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Bravo for putting the picture of the University President with the story and for the blurb placing the president first. A university president resigning at a major research institution over a child molestation scandal is an ITN-worthy story.
OCNative (
talk)
07:06, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that it was Joe Paterno's extraordinary prestige within America's football industry that made this story notable for the yanks. Who cares about some administrative bureaucrat?
DeterenceTalk07:17, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment This saddens me. It would have looked a lot healthier if this had been posted by someone who was not an American, especially an American directly associated with another tertiary institution. Hard to believe it was an objective judgement given the number of clear opposes above.
HiLo48 (
talk)
07:35, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Yeah, and I'm also male. I also like watching football. I've also been to Pennsylvania, and to Penn State. Twice. I also watch Law and Order: SVU, which deals with sexual abuse. (They even had an episode with a similar plot earlier this season!) Yup, you got me. Never mind that I twice explicitly, including in my posting statement, expressed disdain for this nomination; this was an inside job. -- tariqabjotu07:53, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
So, you posted simply on the basis of popular vote? I didn't think we voted here. Surely these decisions are supposed to be based on quality of argument? Where was that in this case?
HiLo48 (
talk)
08:02, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I don't think that it being posted by an American, who I never seen edit any American sports articles, and who goes to a college that doesn't even have college football and has nothing to do with Penn State mattered. Plus consensus was forming that it was more than an typical American sports headline, with the administration of the university, which is one of the biggest in the U.S. put into question. If the same thing happened in Harvard or Cambridge, or any other "Major" world university that their administration is covering up a similar scandal that was formed by a notable faculty member, and controversy and major media coverage happens, it would have made ITN without any objections. But because it is related to an American sport, there's the typical objections.
Secretaccount08:03, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
To be fair, I haven't updated my userpage in ages -- I go to Stanford now -- and they most certainly have college football (as I'm sure you know). Also, Penn State is no Harvard or Cambridge. -- tariqabjotu08:07, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Secret - show us how many non-Americans are part of this alleged forming consensus. (And surely we should wait until it has actually "formed".) I certainly wasn't part of it.
HiLo48 (
talk)
08:11, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Post-posting oppose. The coach of an amateur university team gets fired? So what? This isn't even the top level of the sport. The discussion about the relative academic merits of the university above doesn't seem relevant to me.
Modest Geniustalk10:02, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oh and I don't think that 'this is only of interest in the US' is a good reason to oppose, which is an argument which has been used several times in the above discussion.
Modest Geniustalk10:12, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
It's not just "only of interest in the US" that's the issue. The fans, mostly (if not all) American, don't seem all that good explaining to us non-Americans why it's important at all. I posted earlier that I wouldn't expect a similar event in even the biggest sport in my country to be posted, so why this one?
HiLo48 (
talk)
10:20, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
As has been noted above, the BBC alters its main page depending on the location of your IP. I certainly don't see it on the BBC homepage.
Jenks24 (
talk)
10:45, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I'm in New Zealand. I don't know how these things work, but this story is merely a text link in a list of "other stories" when I go to BBC. But, I'm not sure how relevant even this much attention is worth, given that such a scandalous story was always going to attract significant media attention simply because of its ready-made sensationalism for moronic Joe Public to feed on.
DeterenceTalk11:14, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Apparently we see the same version, so it can be argued that this is newsworthy. I was going to say we'd follow the ITN criteria, only to find out the criteria is pretty much nonexistent. I fail to see why a scandalous story is automatically excluded from ITN -- after all, this is the BBC, the stuff people listen on the radio for fear of punishment on some parts of the world, and not News of the World. If the BBC finds this as worthy to be linked in their homepage, above the fold, along with the situation in Greece, it's probably no laughing matter. –HTD11:27, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Except that, none of the stories current on the BBC homepage qualify for ITN (with the possible exception being the story about the stalled economic growth of the Eurozone, and I've long since given-up hoping that stories about the Eurozone debt crisis will get enough support to be posted).
DeterenceTalk11:47, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
On the Eurozone, a blurb about it was posted last week, because maybe the FA was too long and they needed extra ITN blurbs that's why it was included. –HTD15:02, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Dumbass move Whoever posted the photo to the front page with this
WP:BLP violating hook should realise that they posted an image, with BLP violating vandalism photos still visible. Is anyone bothering to check such things before the absolute crap that was on the image page is posted to the front page? The violating images have now been deleted -- surprisingly they last for THREE years before being reported by myself. It was a completely stupid move to post that image to the front page as it was. Be more careful in future.
RussaviaLet's dialogue10:56, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Post-posting oppose. This scandal seems to be of no significant interest outside of the U.S, Canada and Britain. This differs from the scandal with Rod Blagojevich and other such regional stories which enjoyed more global interest and were posted on ITN. Irrespective of media coverage, the significance of the event per se is unclear. Does it have a chance to really change anything in the world, at least in the U.S?
GreyHoodTalk17:23, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Another post-posting oppose. It's of absolutely no interest to people in Britain either, for what it's worth. There is no global interest in this story.
87.114.206.187 (
talk)
17:48, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Time to pull this? (my personal opinion is that this should not be on ITN as it contains BLP issues and coach is not the same as a politician on executive position.) --Tone18:18, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
And I still cannot see how a scandal in the, what, fourth biggest sport in one country(?) should have even been considered for mention here. This really is making Wikipedia look like appallingly US biased rubbish.
HiLo48 (
talk)
18:17, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The Anti-US bias is really annoying from many. Someone above mentioned Oxford rowing, and you know what, if they did have a scandal of this magnitude I guarantee there would be a bunch of support on here for that.
WizardmanOperation Big Bear18:21, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Calling people ignorant will not make them less so. Ignorance can be cured. Please try to do it. Much of my criticism here has been of the way a lot of Americans editors here won't actually present arguments but seem to think the rest of the world should just know why this is important. Well, some of us cannot see it. But I am always happy to be educated. DO please try, rather than just abusing. So, start with the perspective of an Australian who wouldn't expect a scandal in his country's BIGGEST sport to appear here. Why should this one about the US's fourth(?) biggest appear?
HiLo48 (
talk)
19:12, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
It's been noted above several times that this is getting substantial press in Canada, which makes it "international" (which isn't a criteria anyway, but that's another issue). Also, Jayron pointed out above and Johnsemlak below that this also involves the resignation of the president of one of the biggest and highest ranked universities in the world, which goes to my point that this isn't just about a major figure in the fourth biggest US sport resigning.
Hot Stoptalk-
contribs19:25, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I wonder if you realise that you completed that post with yet another statement of what this is not? I wish you could explain what it IS. Why DID the president resign? Was HE the paedophile? And there have been several posts arguing the status of this university. How about presenting an actual factual case?— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
HiLo48 (
talk •
contribs)
You must be kidding me. Penn State has nearly a hundred thousand students (45000 in one campus) and is considered one of the top public undergraduate institutions in the country, and also hosts numerous top-ranked graduate departments. I see where some of the oppose comments are coming from, but to say that PSU is not a "major university" is nonsense, and to imply that only an American would see this way is downright ridiculous. JimSukwutput02:04, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Jim, it's highly likely "that only an American would see this way". The rest of the world simply doesn't mix major sport and universities the way the USA does. Only an American, or someone who has gone to a lot of trouble to understand this unique American approach, could be expected to understand.
HiLo48 (
talk)
02:13, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I'm not American and I don't give a damn about college sports. I was responding to the IP's comment implying that only an American would think PSU is a major university. If you want to familiarize yourself with the case as you seem to indicate above, the bolded article is a good starting point, and
college football is an excellent article.JimSukwutput02:37, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Jim, it'd probably do you well to outright ignore HiLo's comments. There are legitimate remarks here and even legitimate remarks that suggest this item is too U.S.-oriented, but HiLo's persistent anti-American trolling at every opportunity has basically
devalued his remarks, even if actually relevant, to zero. And, I, for one, categorically ignore his remarks, especially when the United States is involved, when making decisions about ITN items. No doubt, HiLo will silently walk away from this sub-thread, rather than acknowledge the embarrassment of suggesting that only Americans would hold a view that an apparently Indonesian (or Indonesia-based) editor holds. He thrives off his
confirmation bias. -- tariqabjotu03:56, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Neutral. I sort of see Greyhood's point above but this is certainly a big story. It's the 10th largest university in the US having its president has been sacked and a major sports icon sacked. The issue itself (
child abuse is volatile and will certainly be of interest to people with no interest in the sport. Finally, global interest is not and ITN prerequisite.--
Johnsemlak (
talk)
18:41, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
UpdateBBC reports that "Penn State students have gone on the rampage after Joe Paterno ... was sacked amid a child abuse scandal. ... After the firings, thousands of students gathered outside a university administration building, chanting "Hell no, Joe won't go" and "We want Joe back"." (with VIDEO) Just to be clear, there are thousands of students protesting/rioting in SUPPORT of the man who stood back and did almost nothing to stop the rape of children by a co-worker. Pennsylvania just entered my s***-list.
DeterenceTalk20:30, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
But what about your shitlist? And let me speak in defense of Pennsylvania: Penn State is in Pennsyltucky. The two separate areas that make up Pennsylvania are still vaguely sane. --
Golbez (
talk)
20:35, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment I didn't see any consensus reading above, and I was surprised to find this on the front page. A college sports coach was fired for covering up child abuse. No matter how great his reputation is, it's not really altogether unique news. It happened and is localised to just one higher education institution, unlike say the apparently comparable Vatican scandal where abuses popped up in multiple countries and coverups were seen by some to reach the Vatican.
Chipmunkdavis (
talk)
23:00, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
LOL 7000 rioters close a port in Oakland, CA: not notable. Global "Indigent/Occupy" protests: insignificant. A guy who might have known something about some child abuse allegations by an amateur sports coach: "OMG SUPPORT SUPPORT SUPPORT". How absurd. --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
23:22, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
If you think there are more notable events going on right now, help nominate them instead of complaining. (I'm serious - we do need more nominations). JimSukwutput02:40, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Post-posting support. Sheesh. All this complaining is sort of crazy. The story is almost certainly more followed than any of the other stories up there now. Joe Paterno was enormously famous and was one of the longest-serving head coaches ever in any major sport (45 years), particularly for a single team.
Graham Spanier, the fired university president, had a 16-year tenure, which is exceptionally long for a contemporary university president. There's no lack of international reporting on it: The Guardian saw fit to report
10-12 articles on it. In addition to the massive U.S. coverage, the BBC reported on it, as mentioned above (
Article 1,
Article 2). Here are
seven articles on the Toronto Star, Canada's widest-circulating newspaper. (Some wire services in Canada, but mostly original reporting in Britain). Now, I'm not saying this should remain up for a week or even three days, but certainly this deserves some Main Page play.
Neutralitytalk02:29, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Post-posting support. Major news story comparable to the Catholic church sex abuse cases that have been posted. Additionally, the US Department of Education is getting involved and taking action
[40]. Coverage in
Australia,
France,
India, and
Ghana among other places. SpencerT♦C02:42, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Post-posting oppose: I'm American and I think it's absurd something so parochial has been posted. Same level as the Catholic Church scandals? Something that was global and lasted for decades among dozens if not hundreds of people? Give me a break! Epic fail for Wikipedia.
Cjs2111 (
talk)
04:40, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Post-posting Oppose: Sorry, but not a major thing outside the US. Websites from several countries can be listed, but that does not mean it has received prominent coverage there as a notable event. For example, an Indian website is quoted above, but this is practically a "Meanwhile, in the USA.." story here in India. This was not mentioned as a headline in a news bulletin or in a prominent place in any of the Indian news websites.
Chocolate Horlicks (
talk)
04:49, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
"Not a major thing outside the US" is not in and of itself a valid criterion for an Oppose. The cancellation of a Sumo basho was not a major thing outside of Japan--it was still posted to ITN. I'm not posting this as a Support but I am seeing a lot of intellectually dishonest Oppose arguments. This is not just a report about a "football coach being fired"--the University President was also ousted and the Athletic Director and another administrator are under indictment for perjury. Also the idea that Penn State is "not a major university" is absurd on its surface. As for the Oxford or Cambridge rowing teams...if such a scandal resulted in the resignation or firing of an Oxford or Cambridge University President, then you can absolutely be sure that it would be proposed for ITN.
184.57.25.123 (
talk)
04:58, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Being "mentioned as a headline in a news bulletin or in a prominent place in any of the Indian news websites." was, is, and will never be a part of the ITN criteria. –HTD05:58, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Completely agree. I was merely making a point that just because there is a news report from a country, that does not imply it has received prominent coverage in that country. And to respond to 184.57.25.123, "notability" is a criteria and if it is not generally notable outside a particular country, it gives a reasonable (may be not conclusive) estimation of its notability. If the allegation of intellectual dishonesty is directed at me (given that the quote was from my comment), I resent that - If my arguments are shown to be crap - I'll accept that they are crap, but not that they were intellectually dishonest. Because when I'm making them right now, I completely stand by them. As of now, I firmly believe that this is not notable to an international audience. Which is why I am opposing it.
Chocolate Horlicks (
talk)
07:45, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The point was it received coverage in that country; no one is suggesting it was covered prominently there. Is the Liberian presidential election I suggested has an international audience? I'd even argue this one fits ITN's one of purposes: "To point readers to subjects they might not have been looking for but nonetheless may interest them"; you might say "ZOMG! A college coach failed to report to the police sexual abuse by one his staff to one of his students, was fired, and the university president was fired too?!" Sounds tabloidy but real news agencies covered it. We just
follow their lead, otherwise
we're making up what stories should be newsworthy and
we shouldn't do that because that's not our business. –HTD08:15, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
[Posted] Penn State scandal (section break)
By the way It'd be great if the people complaining about this nomination were to work on an article that could unseat this one's position from the top of ITN. Without it, we would have gone 57 hours without a new item right now. -- tariqabjotu06:45, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Please pull this. There's hardly a consensus to post. It's not even the paedophilia case being posted, it's the sacking of some university coaches! How is that news?! Nightw10:03, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Commment Yes, but the existing shares of support/opposes indicate the lack of a proper consensus, especially given the contentious nature of the subject.
GreyHoodTalk10:24, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
It was 10-5 in favor at the time of posting. After the fact opposes are generally ignored because its more likely someone will come to this page and say "Why is that story about X on here" than "Good job, please keep that story up"
Hot Stoptalk-
contribs16:00, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I just came here to read the background of how this story got to the front-page of wikipedia. Best discussion I've seen in a while here! This story isn't notable outside the USA.
Fig (
talk)
13:52, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
As our criteria clearly state, not notable outside the US is not grounds for exclusion. The majority of arguments for oppose seem to focus on that point. And, it's a dubious argument at best. Almost nobody has actually bothered to cite evidence that it's not notable outside the US. Mwalcoff and a few others posted very convincing evidence that the story is at least getting coverage in many places outside the US. It really seems to me that many people living outside the US are reading 'I haven't seen coverage of this myself' as not notable outside the US. I'll switch to support myself. If it were just a college football story I might not feel that way but this is much bigger than that clearly. We can debate how significant Pennsylvania State University is but it is a very large university at 45,000 on a single campus (are there stats on how that would rank worldwide, as a single campus?). It's president (not some lower 'administrative bureaucrat') and an iconic and record-setting coach have both been fired and a deep and long-running pattern of
child abuse has been revealed. A
google search shows many hits to news stories covering this both in the US and abroad. The first hit on my search was
this article in the Sydney Morning Herald. The child abuse angle here clearly makes this highly notable, and will likely go down in history as one of the major such scandals over the last few decades.--
Johnsemlak (
talk)
15:24, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
There's only one coach (the other is the head of the university). And to Johnsemlak its about
49th in the world, but there are a lot of "open enrollment" schools above it on the list.
Hot Stoptalk-
contribs15:53, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Post-posting oppose: If the president and head association football coach of
Beijing Normal University or the
University of Durham were fired, would we even consider putting it up on ITN? We can debate whether or not the fact that Paterno was the highest-paid state employee, or that the whole aspect of many state universities in that country seems to be a feeder for professional sports, but the fact it that it isn't important in any quantifiable way. The head coach and president of the 10th largest university (and innumerably lower ranked) in a country that represents 3% of the world's population were fired. So what? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Simfan34 (
talk •
contribs)
15:55, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
To anyone whose opposed based on the hypothetical "this wouldn't get posted at X non-American college" I ask you to show me a similar scandal that merited this much attention and wasn't posted.
Hot Stoptalk-
contribs16:17, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Imagine if all the energy spent whining here could instead be spent updating articles, commenting on other nominations, etc. I can see why this is a controversial post, but seriously guys, get over it. JimSukwutput20:28, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Second article updated, first needs updating One or both nominated events are listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: The WSOP Main Event champion is the most prestigious poker tournament in the world. Almost 7000 people entered this years event from over 70 countries to compete in the event. This years final table had representatives from 7 different countries and the prize is the largest prize in any invidiual competition. Due to the popularity of the WSOP, ESPN has increased coverage of tournament and had near live broadcasts of the hands (15 minute delay) for much of the tournament. -----BalloonmanPoppa Balloon15:31, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Think it's mind-boggling that we consider this significant enough to be ITNR. But ITNR it is. The Pius Heinz article is really only a stub, though, and needs significant expansion before we can post. --
FormerIP (
talk)
15:44, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Two things: RE Pius, I've asked
WP:POKER to expand the article as I can't do it right now.
As for it being significant enough why? We have the US Chicken Wing Eating Competition and every single Rugby title ITN. This is THE tournament in Poker. It is not a "glorified game" any more than soccer/tennis/golf/rugby/etc. Poker is huge (although a little hurt after
Black Friday). Over the past few years there have been over 28
[41] different TV series in the US alone about poker. Online Poker Revenue was around 7 Billion dollars in 2010 and an estimated 55 million people play poker.
At the 2011 WSOP there were players from over 90 countries (70+ in the ME) and over 68,000 entrants into the various tournaments and a prize pool close to 200 Million dollars.
The competition is so popular that ESPN doubled its coverage this year (after increasing it each of the last 3 or 4 years!) According to espn, the 2011 viewership experienced double digit growth over 2010
[42].
[43] 80 Million people watch the WSOP on espn annually
[44] While official numbers are not in, it was estimated that between 10-30 million people globally would tune into online the Final Table coverage.
[45] If this were nothing more than a "glorified game" then ESPN would not have won an Emmy for its 2009 coverage of the WSOP ME Final Table or be nominated again in 2010.---BalloonmanPoppa Balloon16:46, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Coverage of this is in: CNN, Sky News, USA Today, MSNBC, CBS, ESPN, Bloomberg, Washington Post, Las Vegas Sun, Tulsa World, All Headline News, Seattle Times, International Business Times, NBC, Marketwatch, Houston Chronicle, Fox Sports, Las Vegas Review Journal, Bleecher Report, Peoria Journal Star, SignOnSandiego, Albany Times Union, TheNewsTribune, Turkish Press, ABC News, Deseret News, Reno Gazette Journal, AP, Greenfield Daily Reporter, Greenwich Time, BBC News, San Fran Chronicle, San Antonio express, The Chronicle, eTaiwan News, Huffington Post, etc. This is just a partial list of reliable sources that cover this "glorified game."---BalloonmanPoppa Balloon17:53, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The article is somehow confusing, lots of tables and different events, but it does not state clearly what was going on this time. Also, the winner's article is really short. I may support better articles, but not at this point... --Tone18:08, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
What is the guidance on length for an article? I'll work on them this evening when I get home from work. (I suspect more news sources to carry the event tomorrow as well, because the event concluded at 3:30 am today, thus too late for East Coast and European countries.)---BalloonmanPoppa Balloon18:12, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Well, for non-standard ITN nominations, such as in this case, an excellent an informative article can sometimes tip the scale ;-) --Tone18:18, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose - Based on the precedence established in prior ITN candicacies regarding sports, this event would no longer be considered suitable for
WP:ITNR. Further, there are no prior instances of the WSOP being posted on
WP:ITN. The event is also severely lacking in international coverage.--
WaltCip (
talk)
18:38, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment While this is ITNR, this has never been nominated before either before or after it was added on the list. While it's not on the ITNR "rules," any new addition to the list that has never been nominated before ITN/C should be scrutinized first here before it gets to be permanently listed. Otherwise, it should be struck off the list. Anyhow, it had pretty low
view stats: the
Gaelic football final, described as "
top level of championship in multi-national sport", and even
darts had more views. –HTD18:46, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The WSOP ME is a little different from Darts. Most of the tournament is done in June-July. Only the final table returns in November. In theory this is supposed to build up suspense and minimize the lag between the game play and the results---it used to be that ESPN's coverage was 4 months behind so by the time ESPN broadcasted the winner everybody knew who it was. By moving the final table to November, they hoped to accomodate ESPN to make it more prestigious. So they delayed the final table so that people wouldn't hear who won the event. This year, for the first time, ESPN had near "live" coverage available online (15 minute delay). Talk before the tourney was that online viewership might exceed 10 million in the US and another 10-20 million globably... but I can't find any numbers right yet. As for some hit numbers, let's make sure we are talking apples to apples: for 2011 WSOP July 36K, June 20K... PLUS
2011 World Series of Poker results 21K July and 20K in June... PLUS WSOP in June 201K and July 201K. If you look at the staying power of the WSOP articles, you will see that they keep their numbers up (the dart articles drop down rapidly showing a lack of sustainability.)
As for international flavor... 90 countries were represented at this tournament---about 1/3 of the Main Event were non-Americans. International coverage is on the rise, with the WSOP issuing more international press credentials than ever before. The final table (9 players) had 7 different countries represented. 4 of the 5 past WSOP champs have been non-Americans.
Coverage exists outside the US, here are just a few of the searches that I did on "2011 WSOP", I could have possibly found more using other terms:
French
[49] 7,910,000 <--this number is probably artificially inflated as France hosted the World Series of Poker Europe this year, so a fair number of those hits are probably about the WSOPE.
I don't think people here can support posting a sporting event that was not carried live on its home country, in basic cable. –HTD03:41, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
That eliminates most boxing and MMA events... America's cup and other events... but Poker isn't covered on a delayed basis because it isn't notable, but rather because a poker tournament takes days to play. The Heads up portion of this event lasted almost 6 hours. TV coverage is thus edited to capture the highlights.---BalloonmanPoppa Balloon06:14, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Well of course
Boxing After Dark fights won't pass ITN standards (whatever they may be) but fights such as
Manny Pacquiao vs. Ricky Hatton (what could've been the first boxing bout posted on ITN, as I needed a Brit to last 2 rounds vs Pacquiao as Pacquiao-De La Hoya was laughingly opposed to death lol) which was aired live on PPV was posted. The America's Cup might've been aired live in NZL (not sure on that), and cricket matches take days to finish, and they're aired live. –HTD10:51, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support it's ITNR and gets coverage as shown above. But neither article is updated. The article on the event lacks a prose update, and the other is too short.
Hot Stoptalk-
contribs21:11, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose Commercial TV pap. Obviously not a sport, so such comparisons are meaningless. Is Monopoly next? Should not be here or in ITN/R.
HiLo48 (
talk)
22:01, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
It's doesn't matter what it is except an ITN/R item. If it shouldn't be on ITN, it needs to be removed from ITN/R first. The whole point of ITN/R is to avoid having these silly debates every time a recurring item like this comes up. Start a discussion there rather than here to see what happens. --
Jayron3206:35, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Conditional support I have no notability concerns, but article is in dire need of major updating: playing history and personal history. --
hydrox (
talk)
22:21, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Not Ready Poker tournaments are a hell of a lot more gripping than the vast majority of meat-head sports, but, our support for this item is irrelevant. It's ITN/R and the only thing that matters is the quality of the article's updates. They need some updating and they're a bit confusing for readers who are unfamiliar with the terms and organisation of poker tournaments.
DeterenceTalk22:29, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Conditional support While I am a huge fan of poker and would love to see the WSOP on ITN, I do think the relevant pages could be improved. CanuckMy page89 (talk),
22:48, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose. The last big WSOP tournament got a 0.5 rating for the final on ESPN, compared with around 12 for a Monday Night Football game. Sorry, but this is not a major spectator sports event. --
Mwalcoff (
talk)
00:02, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Is viewership the criteria??? If so, then many of the Rugby events which are ITN would be eliminated, as would table tennis, pool, chess, etc. Viewership is not the primary indicator of notability or importance. Also, ITN serves two purposes 1) it raises issues that are everywhere in the news and 2) it raises issues that are of importance to various communities that might be overlooked by some. With the popularity of Poker around the world, this is one of those trivia items that people have curiosity interest that they might otherwise miss.---BalloonmanPoppa Balloon03:17, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Mwalcoff, your support or opposition is completely irrelevant. The only criteria that matters is whether the updates of the article meet the standard of ITN/R.
DeterenceTalk03:47, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I disagree with that conclusion. Articles are always posted based on consensus. While ITN/R articles can be posted faster, if issues are brought up with its inclusion the posting can be stalled or even removed from ITN/R.
Mamyles (
talk)
23:05, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Of course the posting of ITN/R items can be delayed, especially if the updates of those articles are insufficient (it happens all the time - just look at this year's Nobel Prizes fiasco). But, issues of notability (or lack thereof) cannot be used in ITN/C to block the posting of ITN/R. As for removing topics from ITN/R, this is most certainly not the place for that.
DeterenceTalk08:04, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose - Winner of a card game is not my cup of tea for ITN. Strongly suggest we ignore ITNR and pass over this item. Suggest ITNR be modified asap to remove this event.
Jusdafax06:49, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
No opinion on the merits of the item, but when was this added to ITNR? I don't remember seeing it before, and as has been noted above this has never previously been posted.
Modest Geniustalk10:17, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The update is that some of the people who opposed at the top did so before the Pius Heinz article was anything more than a short stub and the 2011 WSOP article had one section of prose followed by the various tables. Both articles have since been worked on and expanded.---BalloonmanPoppa Balloon01:06, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose. In the grand scheme of things, a minor sport. Mwalcoff's point that the last final got a rating of 0.5, compared to a rating of 12 for an ordinary Monday Night Football game, is meaningful.
Neutralitytalk02:33, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
A Test-match in cricket last 5 full days, and usually ends in a draw. A few hours of poker doesn't even begin to compare in the test-of-patience metre, lol.
DeterenceTalk11:02, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
This is no more a cultural minority topic than America's use of drones to bomb suspected Islamic militants on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border is a cultural minority topic.
DeterenceTalk12:25, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support Rather obvious notability. The nomination could have done with a proper reference to source(s) and without that futile tangent about minority topics.
DeterenceTalk13:17, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
This is stale. This happened on November 4; in fact this was moved on the November 4 section but it was soon archived. Dunno why this is here again. –HTD14:12, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Because it had support for the sam eready and yet with a bigger update wasntposted , though Joe demise was with crap all for an uptdate. Timer is up so a few hours could do too.
Lihaas (
talk)
20:43, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Lihaas, it's too late for this from a technical point of view. When we add the next item, the earliest item in the box will be 6th November. But this happened on 4th November. --
FormerIP (
talk)
21:49, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Strong oppose If this goes in the correct position it will be at best the last item on the template, and the supports above were for the previous nomination, not this one. To make matters worse, the copied previous discussion has been manipulated: my comments, which were essentially neutral were omitted. Finally, it has been repeatedly marker ready by its nominator.
The essential problem here is that it was nominated late. Too bad - that ship has sailed now: there is a reason we archive candidates five days after the event.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
01:44, 10 November 2011 (UTC).reply
Oppose The main quake was notable enough for ITN. This is not. It doesn't matter whether it was an aftershock or not, it only matters whether the earthquake killed "a lot" of people (which IMO, should be 100+). HurricaneFan2515:45, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The Syrian government continues its crackdown on protesters and army defectors in the city of
Homs, killing dozens of civilians in the process.
(Al Jazeera)
The
United Nations reports that the death toll of the eight-month-old Syrian uprising has reached 3,500.
(BBC)
NASA observes the
asteroidYU55 as it makes a close Earth flyby, passing within 0.85
lunar distances (about 201,700 miles) of the Earth. YU55 is approximately 400 metres (1,300 ft) across, and is the largest asteroid to make a close pass since 1976.
(BBC)(WSJ)(SLOOH)
Strong support. Another reason for significance: it's the first ever sample-return mission to a natural satellite of another planet (previous sample return missions were to the earth's moon and an asteroid) and, if successful, it will be the first mission to return a macroscopic (more than a few grams) sample since
Luna 24. Perhaps blurb could be modified to reflect this? It's a very significant event.
Nanobear (
talk)
20:31, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Can the blurb be updated to include the fact that the spacecraft has failed to depart Earth orbit?
[59] (for the record this is a spacecraft failure not a launch failure, and whilst it is unclear whether the spacecraft can be recovered it is a significant anomaly) --GW…02:39, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oh bugger. Hopefully it will get fixed in the next few days, but I'm not optimistic. English-language source for the failure:
Washington Post. Not sure how to incorporate this into the blurb without making it very long though.
Modest Geniustalk09:26, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Looks like it could be just a software problem, so there's a good chance the mission can still be saved. Let's keep the current blurb for 1-2 days, and see if the first attempt to retry firing propulsion unit will be successful. If not, we can then change the blurb to reflect the fact that the probe is still stuck in initial Earth orbit. Let's not be too hasty; the blurb is still correct per se ("the mission was launched"), and WP is not a news service.
Nanobear (
talk)
20:20, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The spacecraft failure is ongoing and may well result in the vehicle burning up on re-entry. Last I read, the Russians had lost all contact. I'd say the blurb either needs an update (it is a big craft and the contents are toxic) or should at least be pulled from the Main Page asap.
Jusdafax05:21, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I don't think there's a need to do anything rash. It looks like the mission's success or failure won't be determined until well after the blurb has rotated off the main page in a day or two. A future ITN mention may be warranted if the thing comes crashing back down to Earth in a few weeks, depending on how and where it lands. --
Bongwarrior (
talk)
06:28, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Read this recently updated BBC article
[60] and see if you still agree. Bong, our ITN blurb is as stale as three day old bread, and makes ITN look uninformed and/or foolish. This quote from the BBC is serious: "The Russian Interfax news agency reported a space industry source on Friday as saying: "Several attempts have been made overnight to receive telemetry from the spacecraft. The result of all of them was nothing. The chance that the station could be saved is very, very slim," the translation from BBC Monitoring said. This needs prompt attention, in my view.
Jusdafax06:42, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I agree that we should modify the blurb to make it clear that the craft has failed, but am not sure how to do that withuot making it excessively long. I don't think it should be pulled, because the failure in itself is a significant event.
Modest Geniustalk12:45, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I think that the present blurb does not describe the event in a proper way. It reads like an opening of some pipe in a German city, while in fact it is the world's longest submerged
pipeline spanning most of the
Baltic Sea, highly important for Russia and half of Europe. And we usually highlight the world records or at least the main technical parameters such as length when we post infrastructure items. Also, this is not the first or only opening and inauguration of the pipeline (though it is the main one), there was already an official opening/inauguration in September when Russia started piping technical gas into the pipe. That's the reasoning for my blurb:
I should notice that Beagel's blurb is also better than the present one, even though there were also representatives of France and the Netherlands, not only Russia and Germany, and it is better to avoid mentioning controversial controversy.
GreyHoodTalk19:13, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Hey, this event happened after Joe Frazier's death, so they should be re-arranged in the template. And could we post the map after some time?
GreyHoodTalk21:07, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Ok, replacing the text. The map is not very informative on such a small scale (cca 100px), so let's keep the present one. Also moving to the top spot, chronologically. --Tone21:29, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment Note to self: any news items that have something to do with the President of the Russian Federation usually have free good-quality press images under Creative Commons available at
http://kremlin.ru/ (realized this too late for ITN image :) --
hydrox (
talk)
19:48, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Well I'm certainly leaning towards it. Have you read the article's death section? Its straightforwardness is blinding. Nightw04:40, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support Joe Frazier meets one of the requisite criteria for ITN/DC: "The deceased was widely regarded as a very important figure in his or her field." I don't give a rat's fart about boxing but even I know he's "one of the greats".
DeterenceTalk06:46, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support Frasier was a champion when there weren't multiple world champions in each division as there are today due the appalling nature of the sport's administration these days. Truly worthy. (I don't enjoy boxing either.)
HiLo48 (
talk)
07:37, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Going to post when there is some more update. Of course, the length of the update should be proportional to the length of the article, so that we don't run into WP:UNDUE issue here but still it needs more than one line. --Tone08:34, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
PULLL WHAT REASOn is that? because an admin likes it? Articles with bigger updates adre not posted (and under the same guise as hot stop). The update here is TWO LINES.)
Lihaas (
talk)
08:31, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I agree with the GreatOrangePumpkin - sometimes there simply isn't anything else to say about the subject matter. The pointlessness of insisting on substantial updates for ITN candidates was especially evident with the recent announcements of this year's Nobel Prize laureates, where candidates were needlessly delayed for days because of the brevity of their article updates when the hard truth of the matter was that, aside from announcing (and sourcing) the award of the Nobel prizes, there simply wasn't anything else to be said.
DeterenceTalk12:09, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The nominated event is listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Support - significant in the region, has made press over in the UK. Clean-up tag has gone, and article looks reasonable. Shame that the detailed results haven't yet been announced, but the re-election is the story here.
Warofdreamstalk14:27, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I was going to mark this as "Ready" but there's nothing in the text that the competent authority (presumably the Electoral Council) has declared a winner. Once someone does an update this should be good to go. –HTD14:59, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I'd like a few more sentences before this becomes ready. But if there's nothing else to write about, we might as well post this. –HTD03:25, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I know this is not prerequisite but I think it'd be a bad idea to post it before Ortega's article is updated as well... --Tone12:45, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Flooding continues in
Italy with seven people having died in the past week and thousands of people ordered to evacuate in
Turin as the
Po River continues to rise.
(BBC)
An inquiry is launched following claims identity checks on travellers entering the
United Kingdom from outside Europe were scaled back during the summer.
Home SecretaryTheresa May tells the
House of Commons she does not know how many entered the country without proper checks.
(BBC)
Nominator's comments: Article has a "needs more citations tag". If that proves unfixable the Death of Michael Jackson article could be used instead.--
FormerIP (
talk)
22:09, 7 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose. What significance does this have? People are convicted of manslaughter every day, the only difference here is that the victim was a celebrity. So what?
Modest Geniustalk21:50, 7 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Not really. Everything that happens to people that we post on ITN is stuff that happens to people every day. They get a new job, they win a race, they get shot. It's the context that counts. The difference is that the victim was a celerity, and quite a big celebrity. So what? So it is newsworthy. --
FormerIP (
talk)
01:12, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support - If Casey Anthony can get on ITN, so can Conrad Murray. -
Presidentman [[User
Oppose - the world isn't into celebrity tabloids. That's entirely a local issue, even years after a major English-speaking singer's death.
Mamyles (
talk)
23:46, 7 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose This is the kind of celebrity driven nonsense which should feature, at most, in the "current affairs" section of Wikipedia. This is not front page news. It is associated with a very famous person, but fame does not always equal notability, as many Wiki arguments down the years have proven.
doktorbwordsdeeds23:53, 7 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I guess today we'll have the distinction of being the only organisation in the world that provides news but isn't a tabloid, then. Really hard groan. --
FormerIP (
talk)
01:12, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I guess that we are an organisation which understands that this news story is just the development of a celebrity based story, and as such is not notable in and of itself. I cannot think of any other context in which we'd put the result of a court case like this on the front page. In current affairs, yes, that fits. But the front page? That would provide far more credence to a piece of showbiz
doktorbwordsdeeds06:06, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Strong support One of the most well-known global musicians is found to have been killed by a doctor that committed involuntary manslaughter. I doubt we'd be debating the topic back in the day if it were Elvis's doctor that had just been found guilty, or if it were
Mark David Chapman getting banged up. Moronic opposes fuelled by bias. Disregard them. Pyrrhus1601:32, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
You were doing so well until calling people "moronic". It is not moronic to point out that this conviction is just a minor continuation of a story which petered out years ago, outside the pages of the tabloid press. Wiki gives front page prominence to important developments in current affairs. This is not important, a development, and only just falls into the broad definition of 'current affairs'
doktorbwordsdeeds15:19, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support - Precedent-setting verdict on the liability of doctors in supporting the habits of drug-addicted superstars, regardless of mean motive or end intention. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲτ¢02:30, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose - I am pretty surprised that the death itself wasn't posted (according to the archives at least), but the trial and conviction is pretty meaningless to most readers, probably the exception would be ardent fans.
YuMaNuMa (
talk)
12:29, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
MJ's death was posted, I am not sure how it is with archives from back then but I know we don't have them for some current months already, if anyone wants some barnstars... ;-) Regarding this nomination, I oppose on the reasons presented above. --Tone12:35, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose that is not news. This was discussed several times, and it was since his death self-evident that he was at fault for contaminating him, and he was the only person near Jackson.--
♫GoP♫TCN13:21, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support. Come on guys, this is Michael Jackson's death we're talking about, not some random celebrity. And the fact that someone turns out to be responsible for his death is certainly not "tabloid" material. People in this section know I'm generally against posting interest-based news items like this. But even I can recognize that there's a huge gap in consistency if we continue to post accidental deaths of motorcyclists and not the fact that the biggest pop star on the planet was killed by someone else. JimSukwutput18:22, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support. I must agree that the oppose arguments posted so far are invalid. Michael Jackson's death is the most notable death in the last 10 years at least. His article had the most views in a day in the history of WP I believe. It's ridiculous to simply classify this as 'celebrity news' and oppose. And it's standard in court cases to wait for the conviction to post.--
Johnsemlak (
talk)
03:48, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The nominated event is listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
I believe this is already official. I'd say, though, that the article on Molina is not great. It doesn't follow
WP:LEAD and the biography is very thin. Given that he is a politician, you would expect it to go into detail about what his political positions are, how he has done in previous elections and how he has managed the feat of founding a new political party and gaining enough popularity to be elected president within the space of ten years.--
FormerIP (
talk)
20:37, 7 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's comments: Agreement reachesd on formation of new govt, tomorrow the announcement for who will lead it. (probs Venizelos). Thats 4/5 PIIGS that have/having election in 2011=2012...italy should soon make it all 5`
Lihaas (
talk)
21:37, 6 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Wait Evidently, the political situation in Greece is very fluid these days - there has been all manner of back-tracking (by media and the politicians themselves) and policy changes about everything from referenda to resignations to coalition formations to support/opposition for austerity measures. These days, 24 hours is a very long time in Greek politics.
DeterenceTalk22:25, 6 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support when official It's still a bit foggy in details – who will be the next PM etc. – but speculation had it new PM could be inaugurated already this week (UTC).
Evangelos Venizelos has been fitting the crown, but the situation in Greece is so volatile that it could change any minute. --
hydrox (
talk)
00:10, 7 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Right now, the nomination is moot. There is no doubt, of course, that it will be posted. However, unless we know the exact details or whether or not it will actually occur, neither a post nor a substantial article update can be made.--
WaltCip (
talk)
01:23, 7 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Papademos' name has been thrown around for a few days but nothing has been confirmed. These days, predictions regarding contemporary Greek politics aren't worth the paper the media pretenders write them on. I maintain that we should wait.
DeterenceTalk04:55, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Article updated The nominated event is listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Support. Major landslide and the toll is still rising, though potentially insignificant compared to ongoing flooding in the region. ~
AH1(discuss!)21:42, 6 November 2011 (UTC)reply
hmm, split on this. while we generally seem to pick by severity of casualties this would not match, but its also a minority topic with the oft neglected Latam region.
Lihaas (
talk)
22:34, 6 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment - The article is a stub, and the update is a couple sentences. The attention given to the article, and that flooding occurred last year as well, suggests that it is not so notable.
Mamyles (
talk)
23:50, 7 November 2011 (UTC)reply
You have to wonder just how many people know someone/are someone from Colombia, have a computer, know english, and know how to edit wikipedia. As for everybody else in the weather department, if you may, they've been hard at work with all this crazy weather. When the snow storms stop, the tornadoes start. Then it's the hurricanes. There is no time for wikipedians who care about weather to deal about something like this. (What is rain compared to the Joplin tornado?) However, the weather has seemed to stop (besides a few droughts and some others), and this is the biggest weather event right now. And where are the wikipedians? Taking a breather. My god, we had snow already, and we just started November!
Bar Code Symmetry(Talk)02:40, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
contradictory repsonse from Deterence and AstroHurricane01...not sure which is true. if the latter is right then support otherwise oppose.
Lihaas (
talk)
23:29, 6 November 2011 (UTC)reply
They are only semi-regular in that calving events occur once every few years. I'm getting somewhat variable reports on the size of this block:
New Zealand Herald puts it at 900 sq km,
Fox News at 880 sq km and the
Christian Science Monitor at 780 sq km. FOX suggests that the last "significant" calving was in 2001, from which the space photos are available
here, and the iceberg that calved was about 715 sq km. The exact size of this one is likely to be 800 - 850 sq km when it does calve, though I did forget to mention that the last calving actually took place
in 2007, with an area of about 680 sq km. Regular observations show calving events roughly every 5 – 10 years, though this latest one is (or will be) the largest in more than 10 years. However, this particular glacier potentially merits more attention than the recent
Mertz Glacier break-off (2,545 sq km), and perhaps even the
Larsen B ice shelf collapse (3,250 sq km), simply because Pine Island Bay is one of Antarctica's biggest contributors to land ice loss. In 1995, it released about 2.6 cubic km of meltwater into the ocean per year, a rate with increased to 10.1 cubic km in 2006; the rate was 6 gigatonnes in 2005 (AP via NZ Herald) and increased to 46 gigatonnes sometime between 2007 and 2010 (see the article on glacier). My research indicates that the
West Antarctic Ice Sheet loses a total of 132 - 196 billion tonnes of meltwater per year, so the Pine Island Glacier alone contributes a significant sum of that, and this calving is likely to further increase melting. New discoveries continue to be made in the region, including
this one of a deep warm-water channel underneath the glacier in 2009. ~
AH1(discuss!)03:05, 7 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose first of all, who won, also not a seriously major award that is almost within the line of the Brit Awards. How does the EMA compared to the Grammys, IMO nowhere in their league. The VMA is much more bigger award in comparison to the European one that is why I never saw the EMA as a serious award.
Donnie Park (
talk)
19:09, 6 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I don't have much more than I put on the talk page for
El Hierro here
Talk:El_Hierro#Eruption_Underway - but it looks interesting at the moment, and quite likely to have a new island/chunk of island breach the sea's surface today. I know the article's not well fleshed out, and that there is no update at the moment on the actual eruption etc, but I thought I'd flag it up now as it's likely to hit the English speaking news shortly. It's only made AFP due to people being evacuated so far.
EdwardLane (
talk)
08:18, 6 November 2011 (UTC)reply
This is no more a cultural minority topic than America's use of drones to bomb suspected Islamic militants on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border is a cultural minority topic.
DeterenceTalk12:25, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support Rather obvious notability. The nomination could have done with a proper reference to source(s) and without that futile tangent about minority topics.
DeterenceTalk13:17, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment I'm not opposing this, but if posted it should at least be filed under the correct date. Items should not get preferential treatment because they were put in the wrong place. The fact that this was a late nom is too bad and I'm moving it to the correct place as a consequence.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
22:19, 8 November 2011 (UTC).reply
Oppose While this has received saturation coverage over the last view days in the British media, and doubtless has attracted broader international coverage, in the great scheme of things it lacks the widespread notability an ITN item generally requires.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
16:47, 6 November 2011 (UTC).reply
Oppose I would had also opposed that as it is more of a UK worthy news as opposed to international news which is what ITN is for, also no major international Hollywood box office draw star got fatally involved which would had helped this chance better. All is not list but at least it gets a consolation prize, a
DYK nomination by me.
Donnie Park (
talk)
18:52, 6 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose per Crispmuncher. Even sensational car crashes like this have no tangible significance for the rest of us ... unless Jake and Elwood are involved.
DeterenceTalk20:51, 6 November 2011 (UTC)reply
NOTICE - Please STOP trading
insults and using this place as a
FORUM. Lihaas, enough with the personal insults, and this incident most certainly does deserve an article, it's not ITN worthy however, LK - please keep a cool head and don't resort to using insults in response to comments you may disagree with. Enough is enough. --
Nutthida (
talk)
02:36, 7 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support in principle, particularly since I think there has been a gap since anything was posted relating to South America. But the article is not ready. For such a significant figure, it is very sketchy. --
FormerIP (
talk)
11:10, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment I really don't care about this one way or the other, but note there is an issues template that would really need resolving before a post. I've also de-asserted minority status: I don't see any even arguable rationale for asserting it.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
19:05, 5 November 2011 (UTC).reply
One or both nominated events are listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: I discovered this news and thought it was something that would be great for the ITN section. Chemistry rarely has anything this noteworthy. --
Found5dollar (
talk)
03:14, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support - The official naming of elements is usually a few years apart, thus why new elements are an ITN/R item for both discovery and name confirmation. Until now it was listed under a different name in periodic tables. Elements are of top importance to science, and every student will hear of them, so this makes great news.
Mamyles (
talk)
03:43, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Ready Apparently, the official naming of "new" elements is ITN/R. The articles are very comprehensive even if the updates about the naming are understandably brief.
DeterenceTalk04:50, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Note that ITN/R only specifically mentions the official naming by
IUPAC (the chemistry organisation) and not IUPAP (the physics organisation). In this instance it is the IUPAP naming, IUPAC naming of the elements occurred earlier (I think). For example we
previously featured the IUPAC naming of Copernicium in February -
Dumelow (
talk)
15:43, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I wasn't objecting, just saw this crop up at wp:errors and wanted to clarify the situation here with regards to the exact wording of ITN/R (I have no opinion on whether to change ITN/R to cover IUPAP as well, might be worth discussing) -
Dumelow (
talk)
16:00, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I was the one who originally wrote that ITNR entry, in the (apparently-erroneous) belief that the names were usually agreed by both organizations simultaneously (through their joint working group). I think we're best off avoiding duplicates; how about changing it to cover both organizations, but only posting whichever is first?
Modest Geniustalk23:32, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Given that these were posted on the basis of a reading of ITN/R that we seem to agree is not the intention of the listing there, propose we should pull the item on the grounds that the only thing that is new is rather insignificant (IUPAP conforms to the names already given by IUPAC)
Kevin McE (
talk)
11:25, 6 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I agree. I think this is a matter of the news media being very unclear; IUPAC named at least one of these elements seven years ago.
[63]NW(
Talk)17:19, 6 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Conditional Support pending update of the article (and this event actually occurring). There is little doubt that such an event would be a leading news story in every international media outlet around the Western world.
DeterenceTalk12:30, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
He has offered to resign before, but it was not accepted.
[64] There is no reason to suggest another instance would be different, but if the resignation is accepted it would be notable.
Mamyles (
talk)
13:18, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Update The
BBC now reports that earlier reports of Papandreou's impending resignation may have been premature: "Earlier the BBC reported that the PM was preparing to resign. But state TV reported that he had ruled this out during the meeting."
DeterenceTalk14:22, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment AP is reporting that the europackage referendum, announced only on Monday, has been canceled. Very fast developments here, exercise caution.. --
hydrox (
talk)
15:59, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment - I'm not sure "Bankrupt country's leader stays the same" is very noteworthy in the scheme of long-term important news.
Mamyles (
talk)
23:46, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support Obviously. Politicians, bankers, international financiers and anyone who hasn't been living under a rock will have been waiting for the outcome of this vote.
DeterenceTalk23:49, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose Lack of news is not news. There's no story in a cabinet weathering a vote of confidence; happens every day around the world even for much more powerful governments. --
hydrox (
talk)
02:26, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
update blurb with the article that has a massive update. and marking ready.
As an aside, i agree with Hydrox. Wait gfor the new government amid the calls for the election in 2012 (which finmin already says will happen after the 4 month govt passes the bailout bill.)
Lihaas (
talk)
10:25, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose Passing a confidence vote is ultimately the lack of an event. That doesn't present an automatic bar on inclusion but the case has not been made for the posting of something that didn't happen. I'm also un-marking as ready since a judgement of consensus isn't a given here.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
19:02, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
ARTICLE is ready and marked in that way, not ready in terms of consensus...i added the ready tag despite my objections because the article is ready.
Lihaas (
talk)
19:32, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
As much as I'd want to see an article about an African election where the incumbent won (happens 99% of the time), I'd imagine
the update wasn't enough. –HTD14:24, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Article updated The nominated event is listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: The FSB is a body tasked with co-ordinating global efforts to set regulations and to prevent future financial meltdowns, like the one that put us where we are today. It recently has been given more power by the G20 leaders to make it more effective at ensuring that governments implement reforms as promised. --NaturalRX18:19, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support Ordinarily, the appointment of another nobody to an international
quango no one has heard of wouldn't raise much (any) interest. But, these are not ordinary times. Given the preeminence given to the FSB at the G-20, this organisation looks like it will have a significant role in international finance, and reforms and regulation thereof, in the future. Btw, I don't think this is ITN/R.
DeterenceTalk21:55, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's comments: We have discussed this at the moment of Mars landing simulation and agreed to wait until the end of the experiment. Overall on the notability of the event, it is the largest manned Mars flight experiment of such scale and duration and must be one of the most significant spaceflight experiments in general.
GreyHoodTalk12:43, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support beyond any question an important event; "That's one small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind" might fit here.--
♫GoP♫TCN13:20, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support - for being a mock-up, it is quite interesting. The amount of detail for the experiment is staggering. I've edited the blurb to bold the main article.
Mamyles (
talk)
13:33, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose Hey, but it was just a land-based psychological experiment easily within the means of just about everybody determined enough, not even the first of its kind, what kind of leap is GreatOrange Pumpking taking about? This is not yet April Fools' Day.
Colchicum (
talk)
13:53, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
This is the first and maybe last experiment of its type. 520 days is not short. The first was 15 day and the second 105 day. That's why it is called "MARS-500".--
♫GoP♫TCN14:40, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Colchicum, if one of us just sits 500 days in total recluse somewhere and then claims to be psychologically able to fly to Mars, this is not a scientific experiment. But modelling every detail of the journey, from the spaceship cabin and on-board activities to Mars landing, for one and a half year, is a highly significant and professional experiment.
GreyHoodTalk14:55, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose it is easy to overstate the significance of this. The value of the whole experiment has repeatedly been called into question
[65] an various aspects have been exceeded in one way or another. I'm reminded of the
Biosphere 2 experiments where the subjects were locked away for a full two years or indeed the current space endurance record (
Valeri Polyakov at 417 days) - a shorter time yes, but in zero gravity and with the added psychological factor of being in permanent danger, as would be experienced in a real Mars mission. There's no question this experiment has got a certain amount of publicity, but I'd hardly call it some kind of giant step forward.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
17:42, 4 November 2011 (UTC).reply
Not specifically, but both were explicitly intended as tests of technologies for interplanetary travel. The precise simulated target is by and large of secondary importance. Are we really supposing they would disregard the "results" of this study if the intention was e.g. a Venus flyby instead of a Mars landing.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
03:34, 5 November 2011 (UTC).reply
Comment: As others have noted, this is not some kind of great scientific experiment, this is being advertised as such so they can have more funds. Submarine crews, people working in Antarctica stay in confined and hostile environment for longer periods. The thing about space is that the most important element was missing; Weightlessness affects your psychology, muscles, blood circulation, bones etc. Just staying in a room for 20 years is absolutely not a simulation of long space journeys. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Tachfin (
talk •
contribs) 20:06, November 4 2011
I dont know why you (and some people above) would assume there will be weightlessness... The proposed design (so far) all produce artificial gravity. This test wasnt about whether you can survive in antarctic's hostile enviornment (spaceships are not necessarily hostile), it was whether you can take a long ass trip in space. Not the same thing --
Ashish-g5520:12, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Have you checked the heading of the section? Of course people know that is the aim. They couldn't have got here without seeing it.
HiLo48 (
talk)
21:28, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I've written the heading myself ;) It seems however some people think it is just a kind of prolonged survival and psychological experiment and judge it as such. These are important aspects, but not the main ones.
GreyHoodTalk21:33, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I haven't seen any serious proposal (i.e something that could be done in the next 50 years instead of a purely conceptual exercise) that would allow for simulated gravity en route.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
03:34, 5 November 2011 (UTC).reply
All exercises are conceptual!!! nothing has been built yet obviously. But from what i know designs include spinning of structure to use centrifugal force as artificial gravity. General Relativity 101... I dont think im qualified enough to make further comment since im not in that field but you not having seen any such proposal is really not a good argument --
Ashish-g5503:50, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Testing how humans live for a long time without gravity is not really important after plenty of long spaceflights on
Mir and
ISS. The experiment was about Mars flight, testing how people communicate when signals go for minutes between Earth and spaceship, how they deal with technical problems when they know they would not recieve any support from Earth, etc.
GreyHoodTalk13:07, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment I'm really torn about this. On the one hand, we haven't had an update in ages. On the other, the update is poor, and wouldn't usually be accepted. -- tariqabjotu09:20, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose after the fact. I cannot believe wikipedia has gone in for publicizing this kind of junk science that has been that has been widely ridiculed for completely ignoring key elements. As discussed above any real Mars-shot proposal anticipates zero gravity en route - please don't distort the argument by proposing 2001-style arrangements that the professionals are not, and that have very real practical difficulties. Where is the psychological value of simulating a mission where the occupants are trapped on board and in constant danger in a form where the subjects are free to leave at any time and are perfectly safe at all times? This is PR stunt, not science, and you should be ashamed of yourselves for posting it. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
87.114.207.101 (
talk)
14:43, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
It is a key factor. On previous long duration space flights the crewmember has been incapacitated on their return to Earth and in need of considerable physiotherapy to rebuild muscle mass, even with the orbital exercise regime. A Mars mission involves a long-duration space flight followed by a landing on Mars and the crew are expected to be immediately capable to work. Mars' gravity may be lower than Earth's but it is still quite strong and this is a big concern. Not addressed here at all. Neither are the risks of radiation or solar flares or other innumerable difficulties. Instead people go on about psychological issues and how they would cope with technical difficulties in comparative isolation from Earth - difficulties that are purely an intellectual exercise in this experiment, but place the crew in mortal danger in a real mission. However you spin this the experiment is far too limited to be of any practical relevance. You can earn a lot more about these issue by studying other environments where people are isolated and in real rather than imaginary danger - in the Antartic, deep underground or on mountain tops for example.
87.114.207.101 (
talk)
15:33, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The dangers were modeled during the experiment, and the fact that humans could survive long periods of artificial gravity was proven long before. This experiment concentrated on other aspects of Mars flight, which are numerous.
GreyHoodTalk19:25, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose I have to say I was amazed this got posted too. The criticisms of this exercise have been widely made, are substantial, and are not anywhere near as easily dismissed as it has attempted to be made out above. The lack of gravity is a major shortcoming, as is the lack of danger: these invalidate large parts of the human factors that are the supposed goal of the project. Even the crew is artificial - does anyone seriously suppose it would be politically acceptable to exclude women from the mission when hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars would have been spent on a real mission? When you consider the large number of science stories that don't get posted this seems totally out of place. In a hundred years who is going to care about the dubious results of this experiment in the slightest?
Flying Llamas (
talk)
17:50, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The part on women was rather interesting.. As for the question who cares, well, few nations are planning actual Mars mission in the next decades, and I suppose the space professionals and space fans really do care about the results of this experiment.
GreyHoodTalk19:25, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment I've tagged this for re-evaluation in light of post-posting comments. To be honest there is not much that wasn't said prior to posting but it's probably best it is re-considered if only to confirm the current position.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
19:09, 5 November 2011 (UTC).reply
Having just read the discussion, it's my determination that the decision to post was reasonable. Comments regarding the experiment's questionable scientific value appear valid, but they don't negate its high-profile nature. If reliable sources have published such assessments, a Criticism section should be added. —
David Levy20:46, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
At least 20 people and 13 soldiers are killed in ongoing fighting in the city of
Homs.
(Reuters)
President of SyriaBashar al-Assad agrees with the
Arab League to end the crackdown on the uprising in Syria, releasing political prisoners and allowing international news agencies back into Syria.
(CNN)
Nominator's comments: I'd normally be the last to nominate a surfing item but this seems unusually noteworthy; though a decent update needs to be made. There's some talk in the Australian press of Slater being one of the 'greatest ever' sportsmen even. --
Johnsemlak (
talk)
14:39, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose although there are plenty of surf wannabes all over the world, how many people are really interested in surfing as a spectator sport or take it seriously as a sport compared to something like cricket, rugby, baseball. Therefore I consider this a minority topic. My vote is based on that if this going to appeal to a wide scope of people which is what ITN is.
Donnie Park (
talk)
19:34, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support in principle (ie subject to the article being good enough). I would certainly not advocate that this be ITNR. But Slater's is an extraordinary achievement and is rightly receiving an extraordinary degree of press coverage (at least where I live). --
Mkativerata (
talk)
19:47, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose - minority sport and hardly noteworthy in sporting news anyway, localized press coverage is not wide, little interest outside the US at any rate. --
Nutthida (
talk)
20:27, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support Plenty of media coverage in my part of the world. Claiming this to be a minority sport obviously depends on one's persperctive. And Slater is an extraordinary standout in this sport. The number of times he has won makes this highly notable. [Maybe "Kelly Slater wins World Surfing title again" should be the ITN/R item ;-) ]
HiLo48 (
talk)
22:23, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support, as this is both interesting and notable. That it's a minority sport shouldn't harm the nomination, as even a minority deserves occasional mention.
Mamyles (
talk)
02:11, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Please note the comment at the top of the page... "Do not add simple "support" or "oppose" votes. Explain the reasons whyyouthink the item meets or does not meet the ITN inclusion criteria..." Otherwise, it's just a vote, and we don't do that here.
HiLo48 (
talk)
20:12, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I personally have no problem with that, and occasionally do it myself. The 'per user' means you have the same reasoning, and it would make little sense to paraphrase exactly what was already said.
Mamyles (
talk)
02:40, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
This is just bizarre. Since pro surfing appears incapable of running an organized competition, it seems to me it's not notable enough to post (oh, wait, we post FIFA stuff, never mind).--
Johnsemlak (
talk)
17:34, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment Sounds very interesting and I will surely support if something more serious happens. Probably this will be following with proceedings against the convicted, that will end with reasonable conclusion.--
Kiril Simeonovski (
talk)
16:09, 1 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support No need to wait for the convictions. The guilty verdicts are enough. Note that there is also a guilty plea by a third Pakistani cricketer which had been suppressed until these verdicts were announced. So we have three international athletes guilty of cheating at the highest level. This is massive news in cricket, and really for any international sport where betting occurs.
HiLo48 (
talk)
22:54, 1 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I agree. There is no advantage in awaiting sentencing. The notable event is the convictions themselves - the sentences simply add a little flavour.
DeterenceTalk01:55, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment Given that sentencing is due today, and will probably up the notability somewhat (an international sports captain may well go to prison for cheating), I'd say wait a few hours. Having said that I would support posting after sentencing pretty much regardless of what the sentences are.
ReadingOldBoy (
talk)
10:03, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support once articles are updated and sentences doled out; nothing unexpected, but a captain of a major cricketing nation like Pakistan getting convicted is huge news. Lynch718:41, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Four men are arrested in the
U.S. state of
Georgia for plotting to kill government officials with explosives and the toxic substance
ricin.
(Washington Post)
Nominator's comments: Summit over a few days ago and wholly sourced, red timer above and we can add it to the 2nd last ITN or so.
Lihaas (
talk)
09:46, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Ready This
appears to be ITN/R, so I have voted Ready instead of Support. Update, per the heads-up provided by HTD below: while I support the nomination of
CHOGM, and support the inclusion of CHOGM in ITN/R, this particular nomination comes with a somewhat dubious pedigree, (to put it mildly).
DeterenceTalk10:04, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
*Support - major international event. If there is disquiet among regulars here about the nomination process, perhaps they could share it with the rest of us, if they think it should affect the decision process.
Ghmyrtle (
talk)
14:02, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Did i claim it to be ITNR...i duly mentioned the same on the talk page. Andother editors did make bold additions both inj the past and recently (per the space exploration) Refrain from NPAs and comment on CONTENT.
Lihaas (
talk)
16:55, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Ummm, i didnt nom it as ITNR GROW UP AND TaKE YOUR THUMB OUT OF YOUR MOUTH dear da-da-goo-goo' discussion does not mean NPA. which was mentioned in what you replied to! or is that difficult to drill in? Instead of crying/sulking you can DISCUSS it on talk.
Lihaas (
talk)
17:49, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's comments: Nearly updated.Will take suggestions on an improved blurb. The protest was estimated at 7000 persons. I can't find a figure on how much shutting down the port will cost the city but that may be a notable figure. --
Johnsemlak (
talk)
08:34, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support This protest reflects a dramatic escalation of events after local law enforcement sent in riot police using batons and tear-gas against an otherwise insignificant "occupy" sit-in by a relative handful of protesters. For those demanding a noteworthy trigger before posting an ITN item about the "occupy" protests, short of fatalities, it doesn't get much more noteworthy than this. I'll bet my left nut that this doesn't get posted.
DeterenceTalk08:58, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
conditional oppose merge with the other protests (big one in tokoy recently) Or have a sticky for 2011 protests, and boy are there plenty this year.
Oppose One significant element of a large protest movement, as such it amounts to nothing more than "a little local difficulty". Not notable in the wider context
doktorbwordsdeeds09:45, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Weak Oppose - while a general strike is rare in the US, it has been done before in Oakland. I don't think this development is worth featuring, as a small part of the nation's occupy protests.
Mamyles (
talk)
12:20, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Really - they closed a major port, and the police responded with force! I don't understand the overt resistance to posting "Occupy" articles on ITN. It's either "not significant", or a "local problem". The conviction of some former PM of the Ukraine is a local problem, the worlds longest guided busway is a local problem, for crying out loud, a "cricket fixing scandal" made ITN but not riots and tear gas and a general strike in a major American City. What the hell?!? --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
02:48, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I knew immediately after clicking save that someone would fixate on the "America" part. Of course, if 7000 were rioting in Mar Del Plata or in Conakry it would be front page news here, but since it's in America, we need to keep a "world view" and cover a cricket scandal instead. So I struck "america", will you please address the other concerns and stop trolling? --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
11:09, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Are you seriously suggesting that all 7,000 participants in the Occupy Oakland who shut-down the port are "'civil disobedience' fanatics"? How about the countless thousands of "occupy" protesters in the (literally) hundreds of cities around the world, are they all "'civil disobedience' fanatics", too? For a guy who constantly preaches about POV-pushing, that is an extraordinarily polemic stance you are taking.
DeterenceTalk08:18, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
It wasn't the 7,000 participants who shut down the port, although they might have had that intention. It was a small number of protesters - most likely the same anarchists who are smashing windows and starting fires downtown - who decided to barge in the port and endanger the lives of the very workers who they claim to be fighting for. That was why the port was closed.
As someone who has witnessed firsthand the violent persecution of thousands of men and women at the hands of "anti-capitalist" revolutionaries who chanted the same slogans and engaged in the same tactics as some of these protesters, I don't particularly care if you think I'm POV-pushing. Fanatics are fanatics, and ITN should not serve as a propaganda tool for their "victories".JimSukwutput16:40, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose These events are hard to assess. There have been Occupy protests in hundreds of cities all around the world. Many have involved disruption to local business and alleged police brutality. I could not possibly claim to know enough about all the others in the world nor have the arrogance to claim that the one in my city was more significant than all the others. Do those supporting this nomination really know enough about all the others to make that comparison?
HiLo48 (
talk)
11:18, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Strong oppose The Occupy Oakland protest did shut down the port, but it doesn't have any real
historical significance and mainly the impacts of it were centered only in the Bay Area, and it isn't really of "international importance". HurricaneFan2517:07, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The nominated event is listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Ready As ITN/R, the only question is whether the article is ready. While it could use some more substantive content - especially regarding the actual agenda - that will likely come along as the summit proceeds.
DeterenceTalk07:05, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support immediate posting. The event is the news, and it should be posted whether or not progress is made. The article is ready.
Mamyles (
talk)
13:23, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's comments: Not only a notable conviction, but also a significant issue in U.S.-Russia relations. Bout is said to have connections to the Russian government. --
Colchicum (
talk)
01:16, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support Yeah Lihaas, he won't be sentenced for awhile. ITN has posted figures for simply being
indicted. Blurb should be updated that actually enumerates what he was convicted for. I think conspiring to kill Americans if i can remember.
WikifanBe nice05:57, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Conditional Support pending update of the article to include details of the agreement. But, I don't hold out much hope of this making it into ITN given its current nonsensical editorial climate where news about bloody basketball rakes in significantly more support than anything about Syria's civil war or even Earth-shattering news about Europe's debt crisis.
DeterenceTalk20:46, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
If you just want to stir up trouble, go back to the playground. There is a story about Europe's debt crisis on ITN right now, while the story about the NBA lockout has no support whatsoever. Do us a favor, and at least base your superfluous, unsought commentary on facts. -- tariqabjotu21:07, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
No. This place has become bloody ridiculous. The biggest news stories in the world are being roundly ignored while idiotic sports and anything American (so long as it doesn't have the word "occupy" in it) is speedy-posted. It's pathetic.
DeterenceTalk22:48, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I don't think it's good to have a discussion like this here. Take it to the talkpage please. Although, if I can also be allowed to be a hypocrite for a second, I think your vigilance about this is good, Deterence, but your anger is mostly misplaced. I do think that sometimes editors fail to appreciate that there is a world outside the US, but see
this comment for an alternative view. Maybe the glass is half full. --
FormerIP (
talk)
23:29, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Right, although the World Series is on ITN now, there have been relatively few U.S. stories recently. Now is not the best time to claim ITN is U.S.-centric. -- tariqabjotu23:58, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose because: 1-There is no article about the Arab league proposal 2-We can not predict the future as to the merits of such a proposal, might as well be one of those initiatives that instantly die out, as often is the case of the Arab league's.
Tachfin (
talk)
07:09, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support I don't know why we're so cynical about "international agreements". Sure, some empty promises are made from time to time, but multinational agreements made with a supranational body like the Arab League tend to be pretty credible. It's a bit ridiculous to suggest that we wait for something "tangible" - what exactly are we waiting for? Should we go take a video of the tanks pulling out of the cities? JimSukwutput07:14, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Peace plans are meaningless if they don't result in any progress towards peace. Let me put it another way: after the UN Security Council passed
Resolution 1973 which (amongst other things) demanding an immediate ceasefire in Libya, Gaddafi's government announced that they would comply. We could have posted this on ITN. Had we done so we would have looked very stupid in light of subsequent events. Hut 8.518:39, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Even if the Syrian government practically broke its promises, it doesn't mean the peace agreement was not notable. For one thing, there will be much more enmity towards the Syrian government from other Arab states, and they might even support an international intervention if the Syrian government refuses to cooperate. Following your example, the Resolution 1973 was not effective in the short-term but it did form the legal basis of NATO intervention in Libya, which was obviously notable. JimSukwutput16:32, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Shenzhou 8 docks with Tiangong 1
Article:No article specified Blurb:
Shenzhou 8 performs the first automated docking of a Chinese spacecraft with space station module
Tiangong 1. (
Post) News source(s):spaceflightnow.com Article needs updating
Strong Support: That was just the first module. The successful docking is a major deal. How many other countries/space agencies have managed this? This is front page news at least here in India. But yeah, article needs to be updated.
Chocolate Horlicks (
talk)
20:09, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
My point is not that the story is not significant, but that we ought to limit the frequency with which we report events which are part of the same space mission. --
FormerIP (
talk)
20:39, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose Are we going to have a new ITN item every time the Chinese do something in space that the Americans and the Russians have already done countless times previously? And as FormerIP has pointed out, this is just a follow-up to an ITN item that was posted just last week.
DeterenceTalk20:35, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Quite a bit of POV pushing in that comment there... And i just posted that this isnt so much a follow up rather 2 different events. This is a huge first for a big ass nation. And an event only attempted by 2 countries ever before... --
Ashish-g5522:01, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
To answer Deterence, yes. The fact remains that only 2/3 space agencies have done this before. To take another example, when the Chinese put a rover on the surface of the Moon in 2013, it would be notable enough to be on ITN even though the Americans and Russians have done it several times before. Such achievements are not routine.
Chocolate Horlicks (
talk)
05:17, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I have absolutely no idea what POV I am supposed to be pushing here. And Chocolate Horlicks, this kind of event has been performed literally hundreds of times in the past. It is routine to the point where no media outlet would even consider mentioning such a mundane event if it were performed by the Russians or the Americans.
DeterenceTalk07:15, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Thats a big if. The entire point here is that it is not US or Russia doing this, but rather a new country is able to do something which only two countries before this could. This is THE story on the BBC Asia page. To apply your logic, if any new country tests a nuclear device, wouldnt it be notable? (Its been done several times before) If a new country puts a man in space, wouldnt it be notable? (Its been done several times before) If a new country develops an ICBM, wouldnt it be notable? (Its been done several times before). Or take the example I used before, when China puts a rover on the moon in 2013 or when India does it in 2014 .. are you saying these wont be notable? The reason for notability in all of these cases is that some technological achievements have thus far been possible only to a select countries. Another country being able to do it is major news. And I just checked, "The launch of space stations or major components thereof" is ITN/R, so I dont even know why we are discussing notability here.
Chocolate Horlicks (
talk)
07:57, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Chocolate Horlicks, a new country testing a nuclear device or developing an ICBM are notable events because the proliferation of WMDs and long-range delivery systems have serious political (and military) ramifications for us all. But, the automated docking of a spacecraft with space station module "by a new country" is about as notable as a Somali goat-herder re-inventing the wheel - all the Chinese had to do was send a few exchange students to
MIT to "discover" how it should be done. As for this being ITN/R, the "launch of space stations or major components thereof" event occurred last week, and was posted accordingly. At best, this is a mere update of that event.
DeterenceTalk08:28, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Someone back me up here because this really doesn't need this much deliberation. You have conveniently ignored the two examples of the man-in-space and rover-on-moon even though they are closer to the subject matter. You've equated the automated docking of a spacecraft to a Somali goat-herder re-inventing the wheel and claimed the only requirement for achieving this is apparently having exchange students at the MIT. Only
nine countries can even conduct a space launch and only 3 countries do a space docking. Dont the other countries have enough exchange students to send to MIT? This is a major component of the space station, so this satisfies ITN/R independently of the Tiangong 1 launch as well.
Chocolate Horlicks (
talk)
09:07, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Given the amount of disagreement here, ITN/R does not apply. That is for routine submissions that have minimal opposition. It can still be posted with traditional community consensus.
Mamyles (
talk)
13:12, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
@Deterence The POV i was referring to was ur view on us posting everything that china does that america/russia has done before. Just because a country has achieved something 3 decades ago doesnt make it non-notable for others. Especially given the long time-gap between them and the difficulty level. POV may not be correct term but it felt like that given the language style you used. --
Ashish-g5521:28, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose a pointy technical achievement that would interest the specialists only. Furthermore, there is no article about the automated docking process, which indicates that it is not of general notability. This is better suited for DYK.
Tachfin (
talk)
07:17, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose - First automated docking of a chinese spacecraft is not ITN material. While I congratulate China on the milestone, their space program was recently featured and this was first done decades ago.
Mamyles (
talk)
11:47, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Agree. Would support if there was a decent article or at least some detailed coverage in some article or other (ie more than a few additional sentences in
Algiers). --
FormerIP (
talk)
18:28, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
CommentAs others have noted, we can't really support this without an article to support. A quality article is probably worth supporting, especially given the dearth of (positive) ITN items from Africa. Update: the suggestion that this nomination be forwarded to DYK seems sensible.
DeterenceTalk20:33, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment: Without an article, I can't say either support or oppose, but I personally think an item like this is better suited for DYK. Plus there's a practically written hook, in that the metro took 28 years to build. SpencerT♦C23:09, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support - there is actually an article, now linked in the blurb. Notable event, as this might be the most important infrastructure project in the history of a major capital.
Pantherskin (
talk)
05:45, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment They only completed one line of it (9 km), this event might be of regional notability but on the world scale I doubt it is. There is nothing unusual about this kind of projects taking a long time to complete in third world countries, there has been similar events in neighboring countries (Tramway in
Rabat-
Salé, Morocco) and weren't covered in ITN, and rightfully so I believe. Would make a good DYK though.
Tachfin (
talk)
07:30, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
support when updated, its a first there and 2nd in africa and took eons to make. some big deal...infrastructure promises can alleviate a possible algerian protest too..
Lihaas (
talk)
08:30, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose, sadly. Although I think that the news is significant enough regionally to justify posting, the article quality is inadequate. The article sports an "outdated" tag (presumably because the opening is mentioned only in the lead), is in urgent need of copyediting and lacks clear sourcing for most of its content. I would favor posting if these issues were at least partially addressed. -- Black Falcon(
talk)15:56, 6 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose I dislike the whole comparison the ITNR topics generally, as if to suggest consensus can be inherited from one subject to another by association. In this case I don't even feel it particularly appropriate: there is a world of difference on the English Wikipedia between English literature awards and French ones - the latter are clearly of less interest to the majority of or readership.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
17:55, 4 November 2011 (UTC).reply
Nominator's comments: Both articles need updating at this stage. The Assange saga is clearly notable for its significant implications for the transparency of government, government accountability and the rights of free individuals to engage in whistle-blowing.
DeterenceTalk10:26, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I've edited the nomination. If you think the remainder of the nomination if POV-pushing then I respectfully suggest that you're pushing a POV of your own.
DeterenceTalk11:10, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose This is not news. Not from the start, the end, or anywhere in the middle. It certainly is not fit for the front page, where we tend to add the 'start' or the final conclusion of an event. This is just a legal hurdle, certanily not something worth the media hubris
doktorbwordsdeeds11:25, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose as others have said, it's simply another (not particularly interesting) chapter in an ongoing event. Lots more interesting things going on in the world. --
Cameron Scott (
talk)
11:27, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose now and for all. Since when did low-profile criminal deportations become ITN-worthy? Assange has received lots of attention regarding his public activities at WikiLeaks, but the quality of his and her companions' intimate undertakings in the country of Sweden are better left for the yellow press than the front page of an encyclopedia, as are the speculative conspiracy theories about the trial. --
hydrox (
talk)
11:30, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose, and agreed with Mkativerata's comments on the nomination. The audacity it takes to suggest a conspiracy theory in a nomination and then claim that you have NPOV is incredible. JimSukwutput07:08, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The theory that Assange was targeted with sexual assault allegations only because of his activities in Wikileaks. What else could you mean by "significant implications for.. rights of free individuals to engage in whistle-blowing"? I'm not saying that the theory is false. I haven't encountered significant evidence either way and frankly haven't been bothered to find out. But your support of this nomination based on this theory and then proceeding to claim that you're being neutral seems to me simply hypocritical. JimSukwutput16:29, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Asylum seekers boat disaster
Article:No article specified Blurb: No blurb specified (
Post) Credits:
Nominator's comments: Another one has sank off the coast of Australia. Up to 27 are believed to have drowned; I guess the death toll will be confirmed either today or tomorrow. Anyone up for starting an article? --Nightw00:14, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment At this stage, this story seems to have barely registered with the media, and almost all of that is Australian media. I don't mean to sound callous, but these journeys, and such drownings, have become somewhat routine in recent years. Parallels can be seen with Cuban/Haitian/etc refugees who regularly drown on their way to Florida.
DeterenceTalk01:52, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The United Kingdom
Office for National Statistics releases GDP figures indicating growth of 0.5% compared to a 0.1% figure in the previous quarter.
(BBC)
At least seven people are killed and 200 injured following an explosion caused by two trucks carrying explosives crashing in
Fuquan City in
China's
Guizhou Province.
(CNN)
China launches the unmanned
Shenzhou 8 spacecraft, intending to robotically dock it with the orbiting
Tiangong 1space station module. If successful, the mission will mark China's first orbital docking, and will be a major milestone in its efforts to construct a
full-scale space station.
(BBC)
obvious with the ITNR bit if and when updated. It was also agreed earlier when the nom was chosen but decided to postpone till he assumed office.
Lihaas (
talk)
08:32, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Today is supposedly the start of the NBA season but since the lockout is ongoing it won't. It's the 2nd time the regular start of the season is not held due to a labor dispute. –HTD12:06, 1 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose. Similar to the Serie A strike that delayed it's season, and likely not ITNish. As with above, if the season should be canceled, I'd view it as a different story.
Resolute14:46, 1 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment This is... surprising. I think you all are underestimating the significance of this. The NBA is essentially the world's premier basketball league, with the big bucks that go with the status. This is unlike, for example, Qantas, which is one of many national airlines. This is unlike, for example, the NFL lockout, which had no effect on regular-season games. I don't necessarily think this should go on ITN now, but I do think this should be on ITN at some point, even if the entire season isn't cancelled. -- tariqabjotu21:33, 1 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Yeah, I was likening it to the Qantas thing as well, and I think given we posted that we should logically post this too. It's obviously going to affect people. Haven't a clue what the blurb would be though. Nightw21:50, 1 November 2011 (UTC)reply
For what it's worth, I opposed the ITN posting about the Qantas lock-out for that very reason - it was just routine industrial action affecting one airline, and lasted about 5 minutes. Evidently, airplanes are one of those triggers that get people extra excited around here.
DeterenceTalk22:41, 1 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I well remember the NHL lockout in 04-05. A league such as the NHL or the NBA cancelling a season outright is definitely a major story. The NBA postponing the start of the season is on a level with Serie A postponing the start of its season due to a players strike. Strikes and lockouts happen. Seasons get shortened as a result. It has happened easily a dozen times or more in North America's big four leagues alone over the last three decades or so. Something to post if ITN is having a slow news day, perhaps...
Resolute23:14, 1 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Yeah, but the cancellation of an entire season is extremely rare. That may be the only time in history that that has ever occurred, certainly for a league at that level in its sport. The standards for putting up a story about a sports labor dispute are being placed astronomically high. That a lockout forces the delay of a season -- and particularly one like the NBA, which, unlike Serie A, is the single most prominent league in its sport -- is rare enough, and newsworthy enough, as it is. -- tariqabjotu01:00, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I disagree, and being one of the biggest hockey geeks on Wikipedia, would disagree for the NHL as well. Another aspect of this is that there isn't anything "breaking" about this news. The NBA has been cancelling games every couple weeks for over a month now. Nothing has changed in the situation, we've merely passed an arbitrary date.
Resolute14:33, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Um, do you realize you're posting below a comment that includes the phrase "I don't necessarily think this should go on ITN now..." My issue is that some people, and seemingly yourself included, think this should only stand a chance of going on ITN if the entire season is cancelled. I'm indifferent about whether this goes on ITN now or later, but it should be on ITN eventually. -- tariqabjotu15:55, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Fair enough. I did lose track of the first comments in this thread. Other than a cancellation of the season, the only other really logical point to post would be if there is a resolution to the lockout. I'll admit to being on the fence over that, but since it is only hypothetical at this point, there is time to consider it.
Resolute17:03, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose US-centric non-story about a minority sport. Not of interest to world-view audience. No notable personalities who would feature in a news story in their own right.
doktorbwordsdeeds22:24, 1 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I understand your point, but it's a bit harsh to call basketball a "minority sport". Quoting from the
BBC, basketball is the "world's second most popular sport, played in more than 200 countries, and a multi-billion dollar industry".
Jenks24 (
talk)
23:01, 1 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose per Doktorbuk. The only people who will care about this are the people who follow this ridiculous game, and we've had way too much sport in ITN as it is.
DeterenceTalk22:41, 1 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment: Seriously, the above two opposes are about as baseless as you can get, mostly per Jenks24. Deterence, I give you credit for your reasoning that there's too much sport on ITN (to be honest, I can halfway empathize with that sentiment), but I feel it's seriously undermined by the flagrant opposition to the sport itself more than the story. In my opinion, this story is not ITN material yet, but certainly will be if the entire season is cancelled.
Ks0stm(
T•
C•
G•
E)23:23, 1 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I, too, would support an ITN nomination if the entire season is cancelled. But, I'm not going to support an ITN posting about routine industrial action, be it in the basketball industry or the airline industry.
DeterenceTalk02:00, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Wait Whilst I think that a lockout in the most important competition in a globally-popular sport is indeed notable, and deserves a slot on ITN, is now really the best moment to do so? If it does get resolved before the end of the season, that would be a much better time for posting. And if it rumbles on so long that the whole season is cancelled, that too would be a more fitting moment.
Modest Geniustalk10:58, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I also agree with Tariqabjotu that the NBA lockout deserves a ITN mention, either when it finishes and some games are saved or if the NBA season gets canceled, or both the season gets canceled and when the lockout ends. A lockout in the most significant league of one of the world's most significant sports has an economic and social impact towards the game themselves. Now is not the time to post though, I'll agree, but this isn't a U.S centric sport, it has the same consequence if the English Premier League ever goes on a lockout.
Secretaccount06:06, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
This page is an archive and its contents should be preserved in their current form;
any comments regarding this page should be directed to
Wikipedia talk:In the news. Thanks.
Up to two million public sector workers in the
United Kingdom commence a 24-hour
strike over
pension reforms, affecting schools, hospitals, airports, ports and government offices nationwide.
(BBC)
The
IranianForeign Ministry calls the attacks "unacceptable", stating that they happened despite the efforts of the embassy guards. Police arrest 12 protesters in connection with the attacks.
(Fars News)
Researchers at
Washington State University develop an artificial bone "scaffold" which can be produced using
3D printers, potentially allowing doctors to quickly print replacement bone tissue for injured patients.
(BBC)
Nominator's comments: Even though the Albanian Kingdom does not exsist anymore some people would find this interesting and he was a infuential person in Albania history especially 1997. We did post the death of Archduke Otto why not Crown Prince Leka --
Spongie555 (
talk)
23:54, 1 December 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose not all that significant. Otto was posted in part because he was still active in politics as an MEP. Plus, the Habsburg line is much more well-known.
Hot Stoptalk-
contribs00:02, 2 December 2011 (UTC)reply
Neutral The posting of Archduke Otto was valid, because of who he was and his place in history. This is.....not so notable. But the person involved and the landmark age has a certain curiosity about it.
doktorbwordsdeeds18:21, 2 December 2011 (UTC)reply
Neutral It seems to be well covered through the various media, but it's only commencing a whole new story with other proceedings. The start of the judgement with its verdict would be more notable than his deportation, so I really don't think we should post the same story twice.--
Kiril Simeonovski (
talk)
22:55, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support once there is a fuller update. I don't think the issue of posting the story twice is something to be concerned about because his (presumed) conviction will be a long way off. --
FormerIP (
talk)
00:49, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support per Night w and FormerIP. This is significant since Gbagbo was presented some ten years ago as an honorable democrat and the alternative to military dictatorship.
Tachfin (
talk)
06:08, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I personally don't find that section particularly biased—after reading the full sentence of course. I don't think it needs its own section, but if a reliable source says that's the cause of resentment within Africa, then I'm not sure how you could water it down... Nightw06:58, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The fact that ICC has so far only investigated African countries is hardly surprising, given that Africa is a huge continent with the most countries of any continent - and the vast majority of dictatorships. The complaint by some African states (about an indictment of the Sudanese president) mostly reflects an attempt from some dictatorships to divert attention from their own crimes (e.g.
Djibouti). Given this, I don't think such politically motivated complaints (without any substantial action behind the rhetoric) deserve a section on its own. JimSukwutput07:02, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
To make an addition comment on the alleged "anti-African bias" (whatever that entails), note that ICC has so far only investigated five countries. If any objective observer is asked to pick out the five worst regimes in the world in terms of human rights abuse and war crimes, he is highly unlikely to go outside Africa. Any whining about anti-African bias based on this alone is idiotic at best and intentionally misleading (i.e. playing the race card) at worst. I'll note that the section in the article was created by one user with an obvious political agenda, and that it is mostly original research/synthesis unsupported by the cite source. It is unfortunate that we have the article on the main page with this mess. JimSukwutput04:03, 1 December 2011 (UTC)reply
Khmer Rogue? Pinochet? The Former Yugoslavia? I try not to be emotive here but it is difficult when you implicitly suggest the victims of various regimes simply don't count.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
07:42, 1 December 2011 (UTC).reply
Are you kidding me? The ICC was formed in 2002. I'm obviously referring to current-day regimes. Nor am I suggesting that the victims of various regimes "don't count". I'm simply saying that the worst regimes in the world in this decade - in terms of war crimes and human rights abuses - are predominantly in Africa. This statement would be impossible to dispute if you had any experience working in Africa as a volunteer, as I did. I resent the fact that you are, incredibly, accusing me of being apathetic to the victims of oppressive regimes. JimSukwutput16:18, 1 December 2011 (UTC)reply
And let me remind you that I only wrote the comment to bring attention to the faulty, unsourced section in one of the posted articles, which has since been removed. If you wish to launch further accusations concerning moral righteousness, I'll be glad to respond in my talk page. JimSukwutput16:37, 1 December 2011 (UTC)reply
Support. I would be neutral otherwise, but I haven't seen any other supportable nomination over the last few days, and this is better than the rest. It has all the necessary elements: war crimes, international politics, underrepresented region. JimSukwutput07:08, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support. Particularly significant as "the first former head of state to be tried by the ICC since it was set up in 2002."
[2] I have added a few sentences to the article. Re the blurb, is the word "deported" precisely accurate?- I haven't seen it used in any of the reports.
Ghmyrtle (
talk)
08:24, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Hmm, possibly not in a technical sense (not sure), but I can't think of a better one. 'taken into custody' ignores the fact that he's been under arrest all summer, and I wanted to find a way to name the country in the blurb. Any suggestions?
Modest Geniustalk10:05, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
How about: "Laurent Gbagbo, former President of Côte d'Ivoire, arrives in The Hague to face trial at the International Criminal Court over his role in the Second Ivorian Civil War"..... ?
Ghmyrtle (
talk)
10:18, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Posted The update still isn't stellar, but it has decent background information on the process. I'm not sure about whether it's technically correct to say he was "extradited to the International Criminal Court", but he wasn't really extradited to the Netherlands or any other sovereign state. -- tariqabjotu20:33, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's comments: It is the
world's largest airline by scheduled passenger-kilometer flown. Basically this means that so much transcontinental flights are no more economically feasible due to the financial crisis. A major sign for the air transportation market and world tourism.
GreyHoodTalk17:55, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Request for clarification Exactly what is happening? One thing I do know is that American law in this area is very different from that in my country (and it doesn't matter what that is). The source don't say "bankruptcy". They say "Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection." Obviously the rest of the world is unlikely to have the same chapter 11 of whatever book it comes from. While Americans may all(?) know what it means, can the blurb/article give us a more global explanation please? How does it impact on passengers? And not just here on this page. It needs to be in the blurb and/or article(s).
HiLo48 (
talk)
19:37, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment. "Chapter 11 refers to
Chapter 11, Title 11, United States Code (and not a book - I'm not sure if that was intended as a joke). It's the most common type of bankruptcy protection/reorganization process for corporations. Generally this means the corporation is delisted from the stock exchange, with operations ongoing (and substantially owned by debtors). I am not familiar with what the reorganization usually entails, but I believe Chapter 11 protection is fairly common for airlines and unlikely to cause big changes. JimSukwutput21:16, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
So, in terms of impact on the broader community (which seems to me to be the important thing here), there won't be much? If that's the case, it doesn't seem like major news.
HiLo48 (
talk)
21:34, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose; reorganization while continuing to operate is not a huge deal. If it were the largest bankruptcy ever then I would support, but it does not appear to be. --
Golbez (
talk)
21:56, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment. The gist of Chapter 11 bankruptcy is that A) American Airlines believes that they do not have enough cash equivalents available to meet all of their current and near future debt obligations (and hence is bankrupt, or soon would be), and B) they want to start a process where they attempt to restructure / reduce their debt obligations by negotiating with creditors (under court supervision) to forgive some of their debt with the assumption that creditors will ultimately receive a larger share of what they are owed if the business continues operating than if the business were simply shut down and liquidated. Generally, one expects that the current stockholders will be wiped out (stock value goes to zero or practically zero), and the debtors agree to write off some of the debt while receiving significant ownership rights in the restructered company. Creditors have to agree to such a scheme and will often take substantial losses in the process. If they can't reach an agreement, the alternative is to sell the company and liquidate its assets in order to pay creditors. When debts are large relative to the value one might expect during a rushed sale, such an action may provide relatively little compensation to debt holders, and hence they have an incentive to attempt reorganization. Chapter 11 bankruptcy is the most common form of bankruptcy for large corporations in the US and has been very common for airlines. By total assets, this is the second largest airline bankruptcy ever (behind United Airlines in 2002). In the United example, we saw the company reduce payroll by 20% (via layoffs, furloughs, etc.), decrease their inventory of planes by 15%, reduce and reorganize their routes. Some ticket holders ultimately found their flight / route no longer existed though they were likely to be compensated. American's bankruptcy is a big financial story and matters a great deal for their investors and employees, but probably will have relatively little impact on ordinary people who aren't directly affiliated with the airline. If it went to liquidation it would be a much bigger deal, but that is unlikely, and in any event would probably take years before it occurred.
Dragons flight (
talk)
22:53, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I'm still not clear. Is AA bankrupt (in the normal sense that it cannot pay its current liabilities), or is it indicating that there is a present threat of that becoming the case? --
FormerIP (
talk)
01:16, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
A bankruptcy filing indicates that they feel it is foreseeable and unavoidable that they will be unable to pay current liabilities at some point in the future. It is not uncommon to see companies file literally the night before a debt comes due that they would be forced to default on due to lack of funds. These filings allow the company to defer some payments (subject to court supervision) so that the company can maintain the operating capital necessary to run the business. In other cases the filing may anticipate the true default by weeks, months, or even years out of a desire to maintain enough working capital to make restructuring viable, but in those cases there is still a declaration that default will be unavoidable without the protection of bankruptcy court. It appears that AA is the latter kind. They have $4B cash on hand, but have lost money each of the last four years and are expected to post a loss of ~$1.2B for 2011. So they are actually years away from cash flow crisis per se, but they believe that it is inevitable without restructuring. The fact that they do have a large cash reserve makes it likely they will be able to restructure successfully without large disruptions to passengers.
Dragons flight (
talk)
02:40, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support It's big news from a major corporation. Quantas grounded their fleet, over a labour dispute, it was here. Steve Jobs stepped down as CEO of Apple, it was here. AA files for Chapter 11, totally out of the blue, it belongs here. Simple. --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
00:52, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose another in a long list of Muslim countries' attacks on Western embassies. This is a sufficiently commonplace occurrence (like road accidents of buses that kill a score at a go) that they're not news any more than some polar bear's death. Now, if the UK or EU breaks relations over it; that'd be news. But methinks they won't, because they too understand it's no big deal.
Carlossuarez46 (
talk)
18:58, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The hostages seem to be quite a minor aspect of the story - as reported, I mean, I'm sure it was terrible for them. So the fact that they were released is a valid criticism of the proposed blurb, I think, rather than a good reason to oppose the posting. --
FormerIP (
talk)
02:52, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support A small group stormed the British embassy and took hostages. That's hardly petty vandalism and is certainly not common place. Iran was largely isolated from the Arab uprising, they can't be painted with the same brush, especially since the mob was protesting a foreign government, not the domestic one. --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
03:32, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support (perhaps reworded to emphasize embassy closings). The UK has closed its embassy, saying that the regime was behind the attacks, and has demanded that Iran close its embassy in London. The NYT describes this as the "most serious rupture of relations in decades".
[3] Norway is also closing its embassy in Tehran.
Calliopejen1 (
talk)
16:29, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Posted, but I'm very open to rewording the blurb. There were several angles for this (staff expelled, embassies closed), but I couldn't think of a way to succinctly put them in the blurb. -- tariqabjotu20:19, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Jed S. Rakoff, a judge at the U.S. District Court in
Manhattan, denies approval to a settlement agreement between the
Securities and Exchange Commission and the investment bank
Citigroup, which the SEC has charged with deceiving investors about the conditions under which a certain portfolio's investments had been chosen.
(New York Times)
Oppose'. Even among states with mixed recognition, this is probably one of the least significant. 72000 people - that's a smaller population than many universities in India. JimSukwutput05:09, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support The political volatility of South Ossetia's circumstances make these events more notable, not less.
OakWoodDoor (
talk) 06:42, 29 November 2011 (UTC) Posting by ban-evading sockpuppet struck.
Fut.Perf.☼17:07, 1 December 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose. The results of the election were cancelled due to the alleged violations by the winner, and there will be new elections. Strange.
GreyHoodTalk14:09, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment My impression is that the matter is being discussed slightly on anti-Russian grounds. You like it or not, South Ossetia is a disputed region with the same status as Abkhazia and Kosovo. It's not up to comment whether it being a sovereign country is good or not, but seems like we have a nice precedence in the other two mentioned. --
Kiril Simeonovski (
talk)
21:09, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Not Transnistria or Somaliland, as those are unrecognized by any UN members, unlike Abkhazia and South Ossetia, which have tiny recognition, and Kosovo, which has lots of recognition. And probably it's not at the country as a lingering artifact, and were it to join the UN that would be resolved, but there's enough people who will claim it POV to move the country article there at this point that it won't happen. Just my guess. (Also, the Republic of Kosovo does not currently control all of Kosovo, just as the
Nagorno-Karabakh Republic is not coterminous with
Nagorno-Karabakh) --
Golbez (
talk)
21:59, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
(ec)
Oppose Before we get diverted onto other issues, the main topic here involves an issue of electoral administration which is not, broadly defined, of importance significant enough to warrant front page inclusion.
doktorbwordsdeeds22:00, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Did you mean resignation? Or was that a quip? He's supposed to step down in December. I'd also suggest waiting for that instead. Nightw03:33, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Call it what you like, resignation, abdication, whenever he's gone and a new government is in place that does not bear his hallmark in some way.
Beyond495 (
talk)
05:02, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose Yemen is now in the leadership shuffle which has become common in the Arab uprising. Expect more ministers sacked, followed by more riots, etc. Agree with Beyond495, wait until Saleh is gone. --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
21:34, 28 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's comments: Russell was well known for his controversial films and was Oscar nominated for
Women in Love. Although he was 84, his death is said to have been unexpected and he recently agreed to direct a new film. --
JuneGloomTalk14:38, 28 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Weak support. Weak because it is a sad fact of life that everyone dies eventually. The article could probably benefit from a filmography. --
FormerIP (
talk)
18:12, 28 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose. Death at old age of a man who was not a leader of his profession (eg he never even won a "Best Director" Oscar) and whose work had almost completely petered out in recent years. The death has no impact on current events. The article is in quite bad shape. Classic "Recent deaths" material. --
Mkativerata (
talk)
18:16, 28 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support Yes, he was a relatively minor figure in mainstream cinema, but that's the point. To be as well known as he is, he had to achieve a lot in alternative cinema, and he did! Not a Hollywood hero, but that should never be a criterion here.
HiLo48 (
talk)
19:40, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Article updated The nominated event is listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Strong Support, since the CFL is the largest
Canadian football league and the game was watched across the country. There is precedent for the championship games of leagues confined to mostly to one country making ITN. For example, the result of the championship game of the
Australian Football League was an ITN item in October.
[4] --
Scorpion042204:08, 28 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Some of the discussions in the very early days of ITNR weren't very in depth or evident of a strong consensus. I think Netball was added after one person suggested it and another person added it.--
Johnsemlak (
talk)
15:47, 28 November 2011 (UTC)reply
There should be a purge of that page, so that on 2012 we'd have a fresh start. On a related note, were previous Grey Cup finals ever been posted? If it hasn't last year this should be treated like a normal ITN/C blurb. –HTD16:01, 28 November 2011 (UTC)reply
According to
this and
this the last two Grey Cups weren't posted due to lack of updates. Last year was special, too bad it was not posted. That means this should be treated like a normal ITN/C item. –HTD18:34, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support Never heard of this competition before. Now I have and have read the article, so I know a lot more. Ain't Wikipedia wonderful? I support the nomination as the major football competition in a country I've never been to.
HiLo48 (
talk)
19:50, 28 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support per ITN. What all needs to be added to the article as it stands? I believe summaries of the other playoff games are pointless and particularily weird given that I recall the AFL Final had its playoff information in a seperate article. --
PlasmaTwa221:03, 28 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Perhaps the fact that the Game summary section contains no prose? Almost the entire article, as it stands now, could have been written before the game. It's not adequately updated. -- tariqabjotu08:32, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The lead now has updated text referring to the final match, which could constitute an acceptable update; however, normally with sports stories a prose update of the 'game summary' section is required to be posted to ITN. Being listed at ITNR does not waive update requirements.--
Johnsemlak (
talk)
14:49, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Article updated The nominated event is listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: The article needs a lot of work. But the election is significant because it is the first time that the post of Prime Minister, previously an appointment of the king, will be decided by the poll results. --
FormerIP (
talk)
16:42, 25 November 2011 (UTC)reply
OK, the update is done, except one of the tables is incomplete because the numbers of votes for each party (as opposed to the number of seats) does not seem to be available. --
FormerIP (
talk)
02:49, 28 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's comments: Major sporting figure with 85 caps for Wales as well as holding the record for most appearances in the Premier League. Died in post as Welsh manager. --
yorkshiresky (
talk)
13:03, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose I honestly doubt this guy is a household name even in Wales: he certainly isn't across the border in England. The Premier League appearance records would be interesting but sports stattish, and in any case according to the article his record had since been surpassed. Coverage of death is superficial - I note that it doesn't give a precise date even - and in the case of suicide I suspect much in the way of further details will be closely guarded until the inquest.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
13:15, 27 November 2011 (UTC).reply
Comment The suggestion that the national manager of a major sport in a country is not a household name, strikes me as absurd. He may not be as well known in England as Ryan Giggs, but he isn't a nobody even here in London.--
Peter cohen (
talk)
13:38, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
SupportWP:ITN/DC criteria 1 mentions "The deceased was in a high-ranking office of power and had a significant contribution/impact on the country/region." I guess being the national manager of a major sport in a country satisfy the criteria. —
MT (
talk)
13:45, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
In Europe and many other soccer-mad countries a national team manager certainly is a 'high-ranking office of power", at least in terms of the prestige of the position. They are subject to high profile media scrutiny; they're paid very well; the selection of them is a subject of debate in broadsheet newspapers, etc. Certainly, the Wales manager is not as notable as the England manager, but it's still a major death. Also, a very young man and an unexpected death. Support.--
Johnsemlak (
talk)
14:45, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I have to agree with Jenks here. I think the meaning of the phrase is misconstrued by putting a sports figure in that category. "Office of power" includes political and military figures.
Mamyles (
talk)
15:48, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
fair point. I'd agree with that. I'm not sure whether he meets death criteria #2, though if it were the manager of a more significant footballing nation he certainly would. I'm switching to neutral.--
Johnsemlak (
talk)
16:47, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support certainly a major "wow" moment when I heard the news, and the same for anyone who followed football in the 90s. A national manager now and a major figure of the game back then. —
Amakuru (
talk)
14:12, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Sppport One of the best well regarded footballing names in the United Kingdom - you only have to see the reaction at the Swansea game this afternoon to see that. A highly regarded and very successful player and manager. One of Wales' greatest sporting exports.
doktorbwordsdeeds14:22, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment As Wales manager (a role he only held for a few months), his role was, by FIFA rankings, less prestigious than that of the manager of Armenia, Jamaica or Senegal. Notability is more tied to his playing career in the English Premier League, and as a Welsh international (again, open to the accusation that it was "only" Wales). He was, for some time, the appearance record holder in the short history of that event, but I doubt that is enough. Noteworthy, but not going to be globally news, so regretfully oppose.
Kevin McE (
talk)
14:36, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Weak Oppose, full oppose if not for the suicide. If he had set some sort of record in his position, Support then, but otherwise, not notable.
Beyond495 (
talk) 15:40, 27 November 2011 (UTC) Change to Oppose. There are plenty of suicides of notable figures.
Beyond495 (
talk)
17:52, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose - A sports manager of a semi-international team is not significant. This will not bring about any sweeping changes, and everyone not in Wales doesn't care at all.
Mamyles (
talk)
15:44, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support If for no other reason than to balance to completely ignorant oppose expressed by the previous editor. Wales are a full international team and there will be many people outside Wales who care, be assured of that.
Leaky Caldron16:04, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Wales isn't in the Olympics, because the UK team supercedes them. They've only ever qualified for one international tournament, 60 years ago. It's not ignorant to say they're semi-international.
Mamyles (
talk)
17:14, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The Olympics are organised on a different basis, and professional team sports don't qualify for the Olympics in any case. Obviously, Wales is as much an international team as any of the teams it competes against. --
FormerIP (
talk)
17:17, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
(
edit conflict)If you do not understand the subject you really should not comment. Wales is the 3rd oldest Football Association in the world see
Football Association of Wales and their status has nothing whatsoever to do with the Olympic movement. Wales qualify for every international tournament they enter. The just fail to reach the final stages.
Leaky Caldron17:24, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Most readers of Wikipedia are not going to be obsessed with the sport enough to care about a death, much less a low-ranked team manager's death. That's just how it is.
Mamyles (
talk)
17:32, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
"Obsessed enough to care" isn't a qualifying standard, as far as I'm aware. I think if you are having difficulty expressing yourself about a subject you clearly know very little about it's time move on.
Leaky Caldron17:55, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose its unfortunate, but I don't feel being coach of the Welsh team makes him important enough. The team's only appeared in one world cup (in '58) and is 45th in FIFA rankings.
Hot Stoptalk-
contribs16:26, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose - for me he is not a global interest story. For me this is a typical "english news" just because the guy was manager for an UK team he suddenly becomes of world interest. Would this nomination pass had it been lets say a Swedish manager? I dont think so.--
BabbaQ (
talk)
16:30, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Weak support. As a player, Speed held the non-goalkeeper record (for those unfamiliar with football, goalkeepers can play into their 40s) for the most
Premier League appearances and the most caps for Wales. If someone with a similar record in even a minor US sport died prematurely, the story would get posted. --
FormerIP (
talk)
16:33, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Interesting, I was unaware of that. I don't think being the one to appear in the most games is that major of record in North America (though they'd likely have others on the way), but how is it viewed in the UK?
Hot Stoptalk-
contribs16:41, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I would say international caps and number of Premiership appearances are the two most prestigious records a player can hold. There's number of goals scored as well - the FA website says Speed is ranked 36th - but not all players have an equal chance of scoring and Speed usually played midfield. By way of comparison,
David Beckham, also a midfielder, didn't score enough to make the list.--
FormerIP (
talk)
18:08, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support there's no reason that reasonably niche items shouldn't be listed at ITN. And for those who say this doesn't impact outside of Wales, they should learn to read, or not comment at ITN.
The Rambling Man (
talk)
17:43, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment Not supporting this (i don't support most deaths), however comments based on "this isn't prominent outside UK" should all be disregarded given we recently posted a scandal of a college football coach. Importance needs to be based on prominence within the field. --
Ashish-g5517:52, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Just because we made a mistake once doesn't mean we should make a similar one again. Getting "revenge" for a bad posting does not help the project.
Mamyles (
talk)
17:55, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I wouldnt post this for few other reasons (as i said i dont support) but "not being prominent outside UK" is not one of them. This has nothing to do with "revenge", Its about being a little more neutral towards other nations. --
Ashish-g5519:06, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment NASCAR got a mention and that is an extremely niche sport, it's not even major in it's own country. Football is not a niche sport and Gary Speed will be well known to the 500 million people who watch the English Premier League every week - especially as he held the record for appearances.
Torqueing (
talk)
19:12, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment If someone died off the track in NASCAR, that probably wouldn't be notable, I don't see why it should be notable in Soccer unless it's a death of an individual who set a significant record or irrevocably changed their industry (i.e - Steve Jobs).
Beyond495 (
talk)
19:15, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Disagree, I think that comment was an attempt to lighten the mood in what is becoming more and more needlessly acrimonious discussion, which should be closed soon since no consensus to approve posting is likely to be found soon.
Beyond495 (
talk)
14:03, 28 November 2011 (UTC)reply
One Final Comment Wikipedia will lose credibility if this is posted any later than tomorrow, so as my last piece of evidence in favour of the motion, just look at the newspaper front pages and then come back to me about notability.
[5]doktorbwordsdeeds23:22, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment Wikipedia will lose credibility if this is posted and other similar figures in other sports are not posted. Speed was not a notable figure on a worldwide scale.
Beyond495 (
talk)
14:03, 28 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support. Gary Speed was a major figure in the Premier League and was forging a promising managerial career. While that alone would normally not meet the ITN threshold, the complete surprise about the manner of his death and the resulting level of coverage does. This is even getting covered by the
New York Times for goodness sake! The arguments above might carry more weight were it not for the fact that Tony Stewart clinched his Championship eight days ago. —
WFC—
03:57, 28 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment How big is this person? I remember when
Al Davis died earlier this year and the ITN nomination got shot down pretty quickly. It wasn't even close. He was the owner/general manager of the NFL Oakland Raiders, which experienced both wild winning streaks (three Super Bowls and 15 playoff appearances) and losing streaks (eight losing seasons from 2002-2010), and caused all sorts of controversy off the field by suing the NFL, moving the team around, and hiring minorities in positions of power. I'm not saying that "no Davis = no Speed" but I just want to know what distinguishes the two; why this entry has so much more support than Davis; if this is proper "American football equivalent" in terms of accomplishments/popularity/"notability"; if we made a mistake in not featuring Davis (if this gets posted) or it's proper that the deaths of football managers not be listed. (note: Davis was aged 82 died of heart failure, so Speed's is different in being significantly younger and very much unexpected)
hbdragon88 (
talk)
07:32, 28 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose. Relatively minor in the overall scale of things. I'm a football fan living in Wales, so agree that it's a big story in the UK, shocking, tragic, etc. - but not major enough for ITN in my view.
Ghmyrtle (
talk)
07:44, 28 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose I don't think this represents UK-centric bias, but I do think it represents a bias towards stories about sports and stories that are emotionally disturbing (but not necessary significant). JimSukwutput17:46, 28 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Posted Yes, I know this is controversial, because there is certainly no consensus to post. But, at the same time, there isn't consensus not to post, and during slow periods on ITN (which seem to be increasingly frequent), I am willing to post well-updated articles with poor consensus to post (as opposed to
poorly updated articles with strong consensus to post). This article fits in that category. -- tariqabjotu08:55, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Post-posting support - read the above discussion earlier today, and was intending to come here and support, but found it had been posted. The wording is not good, though. "found hanged"? All you need to say is that he has died and say something about his career (he was, as others have noted, more notable for his career as a footballer, rather than being manager of Wales). Putting the emphasis on how he died shows a lack of respect. This has been the major story in the UK sports news for the past few days, and the BBC have had many separate articles on many aspects of this story (at least 10-20 separate articles, which is an extraordinary amount for a single person's death). An example is
here, which includes a picture of many of the tributes fans have made, plus: "politicians in the Welsh assembly observed a minute's silence in his honour" and an Early Day Motion has been tabled in the House of Commons: "MPs from all parties in the House of Commons tabled a motion offering the House's sympathies to Speed's wife and two sons" and "Supporters have left scarves, football shirts and flowers across several football stadiums - including Everton's Goodison Park, at Leeds United's Elland Road, Newcastle United's St James' Park, the Millennium Stadium and Cardiff City Stadium", plus the opening of a book of condolences and tributes planned at the start of football games this weekend. There is plenty there for a more respectful hook than "found hanged".
Carcharoth (
talk)
01:27, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The wording of that has been changed a few times already, due to issues raised at
WP:ERRORS. Nevertheless, I have changed it to "found dead". I think "dies" suggests that it was of natural causes or, at the very least, an accident. If he were murdered, for example, we wouldn't have said "dies"; we would have said "killed". But, I agree that the method of death is not central; we just also shouldn't suggest it was of natural causes (n.b. I think "found dead" was similar to what we used for the death of Amy Winehouse). -- tariqabjotu01:41, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Thank-you. I edit-conflicted with you in an attempt to use the original wording suggested above, but your wording is good. The only quibble is that I would have tried to include the age somewhere, but what is there is good now. Hopefully it will get more people reading and (productively) editing the article to reflect the balance of the news relating to this.
Carcharoth (
talk)
01:50, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Reply No meaningless at all. The Occupy nominations were evenly balanced between support and oppose but the ultimate ruling to reject them (rightly) was based on a rounded decision on the general consensus *in addition to* the story's weight. Tariq has made the right choice here too - the arguments are very well advanced from either side, though taken from a few steps back the view is that there is reason to post. It would be meaningless had there been a clear rejection of the story, and Tariq had concluded a biased anti-whatever view was clouding the discussion and posted it anyway. (Ditto Occupy - had Tariq posted the stories despite the mass objection to them). It is also worth noting that we have been growing increasingly slow in posting news events on the front page - in some cases three or 4 days between updates - which would have helped the case of a story for which there was a view of significance.
doktorbwordsdeeds06:38, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Reply I'm still somewhat new here (around 250 edits, someone referred me to this part of Wikipedia), so I guess the take away from what you're saying is
No Consensus =
Do Whatever You Want. It would be a huge stretch that there was a consensus here for or against the story.
Beyond495 (
talk)
13:40, 30 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Pull I disagree with the "better update gets posted" logic. The bridge collapse, the Grey Cup, and the Gambian election were better choices, and it wouldn't have taken long on the main page for them to be expanded further.
Fancruft got an utterly insignificant event expanded, and that content got it posted. Bummer. --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
02:34, 1 December 2011 (UTC)reply
Colombian military forces raid a
FARC rebel hideout in the province of
Caquetá, freeing police sergeant Luis Alberto Erazu, who had been held hostage by FARC for 12 years. Four other hostages are killed by the rebels during the raid.
(Miami Herald)
Nominator's comments: I'm nominating this because there are really good photos of the collapsed bridge in the article already, and because people will have a hard time finding this article without knowing the name of the bridge.
Speciate (
talk) 14:20, 28 November 2011 (UTC) --
Speciate (
talk)
14:20, 28 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support As I've discovered, it's not significance, but interest that must apply globally. Anyway, it is a substantial bridge, relatively new, and it is a spectacular failure. Bridges don't collapse every day. --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
21:22, 28 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment - I don't really have a strong opinion one way or the other, but there are two observations I would like to make. A similar collapse, the
I-35W Mississippi River bridge, was posted in 2007. Also, the article about this bridge needs a lot more work before it is ready. --
Bongwarrior (
talk)
01:24, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose. Not exactly an anomaly in a country like Indonesia. Minus the drama, this is just another case of things that are supposed to work not working. JimSukwutput07:06, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support -- I agree with nominator. This is by far the most serious event to have taken place in Pakistani - U.S. relations for years, and it seems the U.S. has given very little evidence to support itself, saying only "[we] regret any loss of life caused". Could you imagine if Pakistani soldiers killed 26 US servicemen in the US? Would that not be considered frontpage wikipedia news? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
S.devincenzi (
talk •
contribs)
17:33, 26 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I suspect that the assassination of Osama bin Laden was "the most serious event to have taken place in Pakistani - U.S. relations for years". But your point is apt. Hard to see how the death of so many Pakistani troops to "friendly fire" isn't notable.
OakWoodDoor (
talk)
21:48, 29 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment, I have to agree with the above that this shouldn't have been posted until it was ready, as the linked section is very under-informative, and only a few lines long. When I looked, it was also full of poorly-written original research, which, to be fair, I suspect wasn't there when it was nominated. Bobtalk22:42, 26 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Weak Oppose Pakistan is on the frontier of a war zone. There have been accidental drone attacks in the region before. Not regular oppose due to the strong possibility that this will impact Pakistan - U.S relations for the foreseeable future.
Beyond495 (
talk)
17:59, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's comments: I'm not well informed on this topic; I need someone to write a decent blurb or even suggest a better target article. --
Johnsemlak (
talk)
15:17, 26 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment ITNR emphasis for interplanetary probes was recently changed from launch to arrival. I'm not opposing this because of that, but it is something to bear in mind when assessing notability: previously discussions have suggested the old post at launch approach is still in people's minds.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
16:14, 26 November 2011 (UTC).reply
Well, the arrival will happen next year. This is one of the biggest recent missions and the largest rover flying to Mars so I'd support it now already. The article needs some update on the launch, though. --Tone16:19, 26 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support. We have a detailed Wikipedia article, and personally, I think the launch is a fine opportunity to highlight that. Presumably there will be other stories once it lands or when it discovers interesting things, but that's most of a year away and I think it is okay to post this now and then cover other events later as appropriate.
Dragons flight (
talk)
17:41, 26 November 2011 (UTC)reply
support just post both. Its not like they launch mars rovers every day or that ITN is so bogged down with news that we need to slow things up --
Ashish-g5517:56, 26 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support A very important new and innovative mission for NASA. This is needed to balance the idiotic reporting around the time of final shuttle mission that NASA had closed down, or words to that effect.
HiLo48 (
talk)
01:43, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Article needs updating The nominated event is listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
I just realised that the New Zealand has a
general election which will occur on the 25th in the Western hemisphere and 26th in the Eastern. Due to time constraints, I cannot make a proper nomination but will be grateful if someone can do that for me.
The electorate results table now looks to be complete. The "Christchurch Central" electorate line may look incomplete to a quick glance, because the preliminary results have it at a dead heat so no winner can be declared.-
gadfium01:08, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Article updated The nominated event is listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Weak Support -- National elections should be generally included IMO, although apparently this one was not free and fair and it was for a very small nation, so it's borderline.
Beyond495 (
talk)
15:42, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
India's government decides to relax rules concerning the operation of foreign-owned retailers such as
Wal-Mart and
Tesco within India.
(The New York Times)
Egypt protests: Violent anti-regime protests enter their fifth day in
Cairo's
Tahrir Square, with 35 people killed and over 3,200 injured to date in clashes between protesters and security forces.
(CNN)
Nominator's comments: Our article may be problematic because, whereas the BBC report 13,000 deaths in the massacre, we give estimates which are many times higher. --
FormerIP (
talk)
20:32, 23 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Yes I agree. But I think maybe it would be a good idea to conduct an NPOV check on the article. I'm not saying I know it to have a problem, just that it is a considerable variance with what is in the BBC article. --
FormerIP (
talk)
22:51, 23 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose no formal apology (in a binding manner) was stated. It is just one politician saying something and later backing down. I do not believe this is worth being headline news. I do not quite see the significance aside from some media hype here and there. On an unrelated incident Merkel stated Neo-Nazi
Bosphorus serial murders were "Germany's disgrace" but that wasn't even noteworthy enough for that particular news to be posted. I think there is an overreaction in terms of estimation of this piece of news. --
A Certain White Catchi? 17:52, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
Pull - By precedence we generally do not post apologies of any sort, as they really have no lasting or significant political impact.--
WaltCip (
talk)
00:07, 26 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Until you have something better to post, I'm not at all interested. I don't understand why some people here seem to prefer a stagnant section to a dynamic section that includes things "we generally do not post". We can't just post elections. -- tariqabjotu00:12, 26 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Keep. There's no precedence that we don't post apologies of any sort. The Dersim Massacre is one of the great atrocities of the 20th century, and it's impact continues today not only between the two countries but in other countries such as France and the US. This was an apology by the Turkish PM; while it's not a binding resolution, it's not the apology of some random politician.--
Johnsemlak (
talk)
20:45, 27 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I think the difference is that he has previously said he intended to sign his resignation, but on this occasion he has actually signed it.--
FormerIP (
talk)
21:38, 23 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Darren Scully, the mayor of the
Irish town of
Naas, resigns after the latest in a series of scandals, having made radio comments about the "aggressive attitude" of "black Africans". A police investigation into his actions is underway.
(RTE News)(Daily Mail)(Irish Times)
Oppose. Sorry, but this just isn't a significant news story. I don't deny that it is interesting but I suggest that it would be a better candidate for
T:TDYK. --
FormerIP (
talk)
15:12, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Two people are injured after
Syrian soldiers attack buses carrying
Turkish citizens returning through Syria from a
hajj pilgrimage to
Saudi Arabia.
(CNN)
A
Congressional panel fails to agree on proposals to cut the
United States' national budget deficit by $1.2 trillion, leading to automatic budget cuts.
(CBC)
[Posted] Egyptian government resigns amidst protests
Comment. There's resigning and then there's offering to resign. If the story develops so that we have a new cabinet, then I'd give this a strong support. But I think it's too much ahead of the curve just for the moment. --
FormerIP (
talk)
21:42, 21 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The news is that there are renewed violent protests in Egypt, with many casualties, and government offering resignation. Regardless of whether the military accepts the resignation, these events are significant enough to undermine the fragile provisional political setup.
Crnorizec (
talk)
21:46, 21 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Strong supportnow, since it calls back to the deadly protests with an instability caused by the resignation of the government. We don't need to wait until the new cabinet is announced, as the violent protests anew seem to be sufficient for posting anyway.--
Kiril Simeonovski (
talk)
21:51, 21 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I don't think we need to wait until a new cabinet is sworn in, just until this one's resignation has actually been accepted. If that doesn't happen, then that doesn't mean we can't post anything else that's going on in Egypt. But I don't think the cabinet resignation is the story until it happens. In which case, it most definitely will be the story. --
FormerIP (
talk)
21:53, 21 November 2011 (UTC)reply
That's the least problem. I did note the wording lately and you have my excuse for it. How about a blurb saying: "In the most recent protests in
Egypt at least 23 people are killed." And if the resignation is accepted: "Most recent protests in
Egypt in which at least 23 people are killed follow with a resignation of the government."--
Kiril Simeonovski (
talk)
22:20, 21 November 2011 (UTC)reply
That's better, but I'm not convinced that another round of protests in a region plagued with violence over the last year is really newsworthy. The deaths are tragic, but what's another 23 after the 100's already? --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
00:08, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support to be posted immediately. Their offer of resignation will be accepted or declined within a day, and we can update the blurb then. Entire governments don't offer to resign often, so this is significant.
Mamyles (
talk)
22:56, 21 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Strong support right now. The renewed protests are significant, and per Mamyles, when talking about a whole government, the mere offer of resignation is notable/significant.
jcgoble3 (
talk)
23:19, 21 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Strong Oppose This is a local problem of limited global interest. We can't post to ITN every time XYZ government says it might do something. There is already the "intends to run" in Myanmar, and the intent for a Eurasian union. What's next? Syria promises reforms? Greece proposes new bill? Post to ITN when something actually happens, not when some government says it wants to do something. --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
00:06, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Every first and second-world country is following the events in Egypt. It it far from limited global interest. And we can post every time a significant proposition is made, judging from the 16-36 hours between each ITN update.
Mamyles (
talk)
01:39, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
If every politician making a promise to placate an angry populate got on ITN, the page would be 200k of empty claims that never came to fruition. --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
02:59, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Users can safely ignore remarks posted by 76.18.43.253 like the above one. Notice how he appeared out of nowhere and started making a stream of nonsensical opposes against obviously notable items. Then when I exposed his bullshit for what it is, he proceeded to follow me across five AfD nominations and vote the opposite way in every one of them. This, my friends, is the clear mark of a troll. The best strategy will be to ignore his inane comments from now on; once he gets bored, he will start trolling elsewhere on Wikipedia with a new IP. JimSukwutput04:56, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Strong support for obvious reasons. As far as I'm concerned this is ITN/R material - an entire government is being reorganized as a result of violent protests. In a country of 80 million people nonetheless. JimSukwutput04:56, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose Support merit, but until the government is actually dissolved this isn't ready to be posted. "Offers" is also a rather informal word. Maybe something like, The interim government of Egypt tenders its resignation following violent riots that killed at least 30 protesters and wounded more than 1,200. Interim should be emphasized because no official government has been elected, yet.
WikifanBe nice05:35, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support The news here is the protests in which 30 people died and that's what should get the focus. The government is fragile and unstable they can say we resign all day it doesn't mean they're gonna do it and they can't do it anyway since the military has to accept their resignation. If you want this to be posted you should amend the blurb and drop the resignation speculations. --
Tachfin (
talk)
15:47, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The old one has definitely now resigned and had its resignation accepted. That's clear from all the news reports. Bender: in terms of a government being out of office, that happens when it is announced, surely? --
FormerIP (
talk)
00:36, 23 November 2011 (UTC)reply
At least 13 people are killed and as many as 900 injured as violent protests continue in
Cairo's
Tahrir Square against
Egypt's ruling military government. Security forces attempt to disperse the crowds with
tear gas and
baton charges.
(BBC)
Article updated The nominated event is listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: I'm signing off for the night, so I will not be able to handle any issues that may arise until tomorrow late morning or afternoon, Eastern Time. Feel free to
be bold and fix things yourself if stuff needs fixing.
jcgoble3 (
talk)
05:23, 21 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator comment I've added a (non-bold) link to the race article to the blurb, now that I've written up a reasonable race report. The article is still tagged {{under construction}} due to the results tables not yet being filled in, so if there's any particular reason an {{under construction}} article can't be linked on the Main Page, feel free to remove the link.
jcgoble3 (
talk)
17:59, 21 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment The article could do with a good proof-read and copyedit - there are one or two jarring changes in tense in the 2011 paragraph in particular, which could probably do with breaking up in any case. I don't think its a lot of work but I'm not volunteering since I need to be somewhere else right now.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
19:09, 21 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Done Copy-edited the 2010, 2011, and "Other racing series", and also removed a section that was out of place and which I have no clue which year it belongs under. The rest of the article looks to be in fairly decent shape on a quick scan.
jcgoble3 (
talk)
20:11, 21 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment This is in the US, right? Just pointing out that neither the blurb nor the article lead/lede give any indication of where this takes place, and, in my part of the world, it is not so much unimportant as unheard-of.
Ghmyrtle (
talk)
21:55, 21 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The very first sentence of
Tony Stewart identifies him as an "American auto racing driver". I've mentioned the U.S. in the blurb. (Interestingly, I looked through the history of the ITN template to see how this was worded before, but I could not find it in either of the past two years despite it being on ITN/R.)
jcgoble3 (
talk)
23:10, 21 November 2011 (UTC)reply
In sports blurbs, it's standard to begin with In (name of sport), ...; i.e. In auto racing, .... I don't think it it's necessary to say it happened in the US.--
Johnsemlak (
talk)
02:47, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Good point. I've changed "In the United States" to "In auto racing". Thanks for the tip; this is my first significant experience with nominating something for ITN. That said, can we get some !votes, please? This is going to become stale soon.
jcgoble3 (
talk)
02:54, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Article updated The nominated event is listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
The
United States successfully tests a new
hypersonic weapon system, capable of striking targets 3,700 kilometres (2,300 mi) away in under 30 minutes, as part of its
Prompt Global Strike program.
(BBC)
Nominator's comments: Even though the Cathedral isn't historical it has a profound impact on the world especially with its show
The Hour of Power. It is a major landmark in Southern California. And we dont see Cathedrals(even though it wasn't a Cathedral technically) auctioned off to often.
Spongie555 (
talk)
05:41, 21 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose, just a real estate transaction. From one church to another. It's still going to be a church. If the price were somehow recordbreaking, or if it were going to be demolished, then maybe, but neither apply. --
Golbez (
talk)
19:32, 21 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment Blurb would need work to distinguish the institution from the building: one does not 'found' a building indicating these two are confused.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
12:28, 23 November 2011 (UTC).reply
Support per Greyhood, this is "nice news". I suggest we bold the
Battle of Öland article -which is in good shape- with a section there about this new finding as frankly there isn't much to say about the ship.
Tachfin (
talk)
04:32, 20 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Because, despite the attention that the two-sentence stub has received from numerous users here, nobody seems able to come up with anything extra to say about it. If it's only two sentences, it's perfectly possible to put the relevant information in a list or in the article referred to above. JimSukwutput10:30, 20 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I think there's plenty of scope for expansion. It's a very notable ship in historical terms. The Norwegian article is already expanded. It may not be suitable for ITN posting right now as a bolded article but I think it's worthy of an article.--
Johnsemlak (
talk)
13:07, 20 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The Norwegian article has one inline citation, even if we dump a translation it still wouldn't be enough. Furthermore, it has only a section about the specs and another about the
Battle of Öland. I'm not saying the ship article should be deleted but the battle article has much more substance potential that would interest the average reader and is already nicely expanded.
Tachfin (
talk)
15:35, 20 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support "the last key Gaddafi family member to be seized or killed", according to the BBC, and he's wanted by the International Criminal Court for crimes against humanity. Hut 8.518:32, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
It has been posted as captured "while attempting to flee to
Niger." While some news agencies are making this claim, many are not. Some sources have been saying for weeks that he has been trying to get into Niger, but frankly, it can't be that hard a border to cross. At the moment, I don't think that detail is one we are confident enough of to incorporate into our blurb, nor is it essential to the newsworthiness of the item. Suggest deletion of that detail.
Kevin McE (
talk)
19:57, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Scientists claim to have created World's lightest material. I was skeptic at first but its been published by
ScienceMag and reading few articles (
BBC) it looks like a very legit claim. Very encyclopedic but i believe we will need a new article for this or maybe update in
Truss if that's acceptable. there is also a free
image available for it. --
Ashish-g5501:59, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Conditional Support pending article. There may be some debate over whether it is the material, or the structure of the material, that gives this its "light weight" property, so one might argue that the title "World's lightest material" is a tad misleading. This is a minority topic. Btw, that is a wonderful image that would look great on the front page.
DeterenceTalk05:33, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support if this indeed is current news, and if the article is expanded at least twice in size and includes the information on who and when developed the thing. Currently the article lacks this key info.
GreyHoodTalk22:08, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment I'm in two minds about the notability of this: it doesn't strike me as a development of Earth-shattering importance that everyone has been waiting with baited breath for. On the other hand it is legitimately asserted to be a minority topic so possibly it hits that reduced threshold. However, the article is not currently up to scratch: I personally don't see why a new article needs ten times the work putting in compared to wedging a minimal update into an existing article, but that is the way it is and the article falls short of the minimum coverage for a new article.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
02:23, 20 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support I enjoyed seeing
Aerogel associated with the featured picture a few months back. It's interesting, especially from an engineering background. The update associated with this event (new article and multiple sections) is much more than the typical few sentences.
Mamyles (
talk)
05:17, 20 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Is the article missing something that you would like to see? That article is example of update it does not mean we need to count its lines to match with all ITN items. We have posted one para articles many times as they satisfy ITN update and get expanded as soon as they go up. This is a lot more than that. --
Ashish-g5518:10, 20 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I don't know what I like to see specifically, just a more developed article. It doesn't matter how you assess that article, it comes up short. You compare it to the recognised minimum it is shorter, it lacks a summary infobox (not that I'm saying a gratuitous and mostly empty one would be a good idea) and far fewer references. "There's nothing to say" is not a rationale to post in the absence of an update - it is actually a compelling against posting.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
15:14, 21 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Most updates we see here are 2-4 sentences. This update is an entire article/stub or 8 sentences. While I believe this minority topic is worth posting, I also can't see anything more specific to add. If the information on the event is complete, then I assume it is ready.
Mamyles (
talk)
15:25, 21 November 2011 (UTC)reply
To a certain extent I agree with you, hence my comments above about a new article needing a lot more working than wedging an update in an existing one. However, that is the situation as it stands.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
16:00, 21 November 2011 (UTC).reply
the image is OK for non-commercial use according to HRL copyright notice. Even though its free i dont think its free enough for main page. initially i thought it was. the one in article seems to be off of news site. --
Ashish-g5502:14, 22 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose I do not see the importance of the story in the round for front page inclusion. Having looked at the earlier links you provide, I think the consensus stands up here too
doktorbwordsdeeds15:29, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
It's sorta like Obama jailing Bush for screwing Kerry. This case was for the 2007 Senate election, not for the 2004 presidential election.
As for the August 2011 discussion, that was the first time that it happened, and it was not posted. For the June 2007 discussion, that was the result of the general election, usually automatically posted, but no one even bothered to check if it was updated (LOL). So essentially, this story was skipped upon twice (going on thrice) already. –HTD15:56, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's comments: Very significant move, possibly indicating confidence on the part of the NLD that forthcoming byelections will be fair. --
FormerIP (
talk)
22:03, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support Let's face it, short of a nuke going off in downtown
Naypyidaw,
Suu Kyi is the only reason anyone cares about
Burma/
Myanmar. While the registration of a
political party would be a trivial event in most countries, the registration of Suu Kyi's
National League for Democracy is one of the most notable events to occur in Burma's political arena for years. I would also be open to waiting until the National League for Democracy actually registers as a political party, (or attempts to register), especially given that the response of the government/military to such an act will also be quite notable.
DeterenceTalk00:37, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I'd support waiting if we can be sure it is going to happen like that, but I don't have the info. It may just be a bureaucratic process that may not get reported and might not even get announced, in which case we lose the story. In terms of the government response, it seems like a fait accompli that the application will just be processed. Suu Kyi has been in talks with them for much of the year. I don't think there is any chance of it being declined. --
FormerIP (
talk)
20:31, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support A notable development, a highly important event in that country's history and a rare inclusion for Asian politics on the front page. Question - do we have "Myanmar" in parentheses?
doktorbwordsdeeds10:26, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose This is a local issue with no global significance. Announcing an intention and setting a target date is all politicians do! We can't promote every piece of political clap-trap which gets spewed out, especially one as insignificant as this.--
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
20:34, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
This is the second time you used this idiotic line of reasoning. You previously claimed that the start of the Syrian civil war is a "local problem of no real international significance". Now you claim that the largest political party in a country of 60 million people being allowed to rejoin politics again is somehow another "local issue with no global significance". Yet the only nomination you've ever supported on ITN is 200 people being evicted from Zuccotti Park. You gotta be kidding me here. Read the third point of the "Please do not..." guidelines above. JimSukwutput20:46, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Please Jim, there is no reason to be uncivil. "Idiotic" is a cruel and unnecessary word to use. Global significance is different, and is consistently a factor on ITN. If HIV were cured in Sweden tomorrow, it would be news. Some politicians in a repressed country claiming they'll do something is not. If they do manage to run, win or lose, with or without being imprisoned, then it's good for ITN. --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
21:09, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Those damned neutrinos exceed the speed of light once again, this time at
CERN.[1] Perhaps not something to list immediately, but certainly something notable in the under-represented (at ITN) world of particle physics and its consequences...
The Rambling Man (
talk)
17:06, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Strong Oppose. Actually, what happened was that some scientists sought to find a reason for why the original experiment had its results, which runs completely against empirical evidence and thus is unlikely to be valid (even the original team who carried out the experiment said this much). One of common hypotheses was that the length of the bunches of neutrinos that were produced could introduce errors with the time difference measured. So the original team addressed this criticism by producing shorter bundles and somehow came up with the same results. This does not tell us at all that their original experiment was valid. In fact, this is not even a replication, since it was ran by the same team with almost exactly the same conditions. If some other fault with the design is to blame, then that fault still exists and so we would expect the same incorrect results to come out.
In short, we still do not know whether special relativity is indeed mistaken or whether some experimental error is to be blamed. In either case, this experiment is only a tiny step towards finding out. The independent experiment that is scheduled to be run a few months later in Japan would be a much more important stage in this process. JimSukwutput17:25, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Of course. I'm not opposing this on the basis of whether the experiment is valid. My point was that this is a very small step towards finding out whether the original experiment was valid or not. As such, it is not notable. It's true that this is appearing in some newspapers, but so are thousands of items every day; besides, news items are based purely on interest, and our nominations are decided based on notability and quality. JimSukwutput17:50, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Fair enough. That's why it was a cheeky nom. Perhaps in years to come this will prove to be the ITN "we should have posted". Who knows. Perhaps I should go back to finishing off that time machine I was working on...!
The Rambling Man (
talk)
19:05, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Hopefully in weeks to come we won't have to put up with
dickish remarks like whatever your hypothesis from a bureaucrat. If you can't stop yourself from putting other editors down, with self righteous and inaccurate commentary, I'd suggest you shut up Rambling Man. Pedro :
Chat 21:55, 20 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Jim Sukwutput, congratulations. Your little
WP:SOAP provides one of the clearest examples of the
theory-dependence of observations I have ever seen - the scientists MUST have made a mistake because their data conflicts with the theories I believe. I'm especially impressed by that mountain of
WP:OR that you've provided to show just where those hapless scientists went wrong. Thank goodness you're here to steer them back onto the right track. Now, if you could just solve that silly little Palestine-Israel squabble by lunch, that would be positively spiffing. *golf clap*
DeterenceTalk21:29, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Did you even read what I wrote? At no point did I make any claim whatsoever about the validity of the experiment. As I am not a working physicist, I am not in a position to do that. That is why I rely on the testimony of working scientists, whose
consensus opinion I stated. My friendly advice would be to read what you're responding to next time rather than citing some exotic philosophical article that you have little comprehension of. Thomas Kuhn, really? I'd have a little more respect for you if you bothered to read the sources and figure out what's actually going on instead of starting another one of your little rants about how everybody on ITN is in some kind of conspiracy to oppress your favourite topics.
Did I at any point claim that certain scientists are wrong? I claimed that the experiment might be wrong, and the scientists who carried out the experiment themselves concurred that that was the most likely scenario. The entire point of revealing the experimental results was to hopefully let someone else figure out what the error was, rather than to attempt to discredit mainstream physics. No working physicist disputes the results of general relativity, just as no biologist disputes evolution and no serious mathematician works outside of the axiom of choice. But instead of educating yourself of the basic facts in this case, you choose to go and cite some metaphysical nonsense about how all science is really subjective and hence we cannot trust empirical evidence, so every little "anti-establishment" experiment that you favor for some reason deserves to be posted on ITN, and everyone who disagrees is just a delusional Einstein fanboy.
My statements about the possible errors of the experiment was not even the main thrust of my argument - in fact, you completely agree with me on my argument that regardless of the validity of the original experiment, this repeated experiment is not noteworthy enough to be posted. So you initiated a pointless discussion filled with personal insults for what? To show how intelligent you are and how the rest of us are all dimwitted idiots with little understanding of analytic philosophy? I bow to your wisdom. Now please leave me the fuck alone. JimSukwutput03:17, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
That was my point, Deterence. You agreed with me in substance, yet you chose to waste your time making snarky remarks on my comment and throwing insults. What exactly is your problem? Been too long since your last ban? JimSukwutput06:37, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
this is same experiment done with shorter beam length to reduce errors. We have already posted this once. Now we wait till we can say in our blurb that our last 100 years were useless --
Ashish-g5517:53, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose This entire subject has been the target of a veritable avalanche of abuse and scorn from the cult of Einstein in recent months and I always wonder what they're hiding when people start having conniptions in their efforts to censor/ridicule a subject into oblivion. But, we have already posted the original public announcement in ITN. An independent verification of the results would be notable and obviously worth posting in ITN, (not withstanding the stubborn declaration by armchair critics that any data that conflicts with Einstein must be wrong), but, this is simply a modified version of the original experiment conducted by the same people. It's significant, but not significant enough for ITN.
DeterenceTalk21:39, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose this experiment does not constitute verification of the results, it has merely removed one potential problem. If there is some systematic flaw in the design of the experiment then this would not have caught it. What's more if the neutrinos aren't travelling faster than the speed of light then we probably won't post that on ITN ("neutrinos obey known physics" isn't much of a news story) so we risk misleading our readers by posting this. Hut 8.512:07, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose The speed of neutrinos at CERN is a local issue of limited global significance. Do people in the rest of the English speaking world care how fast some European neutrinos are traveling? I don't think so. Now, when we can post "General relativity proven false, humans vacation on
Risa.", that should be newsworthy. --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
20:44, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Again Jim with the cruelty. I don't understand why you use these terms. Since the header for this item was "Einstein fail" and was obviously doomed, I figured I would have a little fun with it. --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
21:13, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Weak Support. The Eurasian Union is only a distant possibility so far, but if it were indeed carried out, the long-term implications are immense. In any case, the cooperation agreement itself is quite noteworthy, if only as an indication of the shifting geopolitical climate in the region. JimSukwutput17:33, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Neutral I can see the long-term significance of the agreement and think this story would be a welcome addition to the front page. The Union has not been formally created though, has it? Maybe the blurb and article should be looked at to make sure it is clearly explained.
doktorbwordsdeeds17:56, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
At least they formally created the Eurasian Commission and the Eurasian Economic Space, which both would start working from Jan 1 2012. Perhaps we could post it on 1 January if not now. Still the treaty is quite significant per se as a demonstration that re-integration starts.
GreyHoodTalk19:01, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support This proves the success of the European Union, by having the former Soviet Union want to imitate its processes. The treaty could be the start of something big. As the formal agreement is the news, it would be better posted sooner than later.
Mamyles (
talk)
19:31, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Using that logic, the creation of the European Union with the same confederate form of governance "proves the success of the" Soviet Union or Yugoslavia. Newsflash: all these mega-States are wonderful successes, until nationalistic squabbles lead to ethnic cleansing and genocide.
DeterenceTalk22:54, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose Estimates of the size of the oil spill range from "a trickle" to around 650 barrels of oil, depending on who you believe. Either way, even 650 barrels is a lot less oil than the average cargo ship carries so this is hardly Earth-shattering stuff. However, the notability of this story may come in the near future as there are some indications (from the Brazilian government) that Chevron has been breaking a few drilling rules.
DeterenceTalk21:51, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Strong Oppose on consistency grounds. If we did not post anything about the actual protest, it makes no sense whatsoever to post this one. Most of the event occurred at the same time as the nominated event below (Nov 15) and is merely one of many results of what happened. JimSukwutput06:02, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Sorry, but I don't agree that we should conflate these arrests with the progression and day-to-day affairs of Occupy Wall Street. These arrests were carried out against individuals other than those who are participating in the protests. The two subjects are related but fundamentally distinct. — C M B J07:19, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose The NYPD used unconstitutional threats and violence to silence and "detain" journalists and create a media black-out during the eviction in clear violation of the 1st Amendment (this isn't soapboxing, this is what just about every media organisation is reporting, except Fox). But, this was just one small (albeit very significant) aspect of a topic (the forced removal of the Occupy Wall Street protesters) that has already been nominated below. Regardless, the Occupy nominations already have bugger-all chance of being posted by this editorial community. Add to that the complete and utter subservience and sycophantic hero-worship that these editors display when grovelling at the feet of the NYPD, then you have
WP:SNOW chance of getting this posted. Remember: you are completely forbidden from ever suggesting any wrongdoing by American cops in ITN/C ;-)
DeterenceTalk06:35, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I don't think anyone is still kidding themselves into believing that nominations about Occupy events are "almost always afforded reasonable consideration for ITN inclusion". Aside from a couple of wikilawyering robots with sticks up their ****, the opposition to the Occupy nominations is almost entirely partisan.
DeterenceTalk08:15, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose This is just a detail of an event and not a news story in its own right. The Occupy "movement" has had its news events nominated here before and consistently failed to persuade the community that they are notable enough for inclusion. That journalists are arrested as part of wider unrest is just a consequence which does not move the story forward and is certainly not credible enough for a front page mention.
doktorbwordsdeeds07:18, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The "Occupy" movement may have failed to persuade the community of its periodic newsworthiness, but I hardly see how that absolutely precludes any and all consequential stories. — C M B J07:45, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment Because we need to look at these nominations in the context of the wider issue. Occupy is a "special case" insofar as those pushing for front page credence seem to be very hasty in nominating every little blip and bluster that occurs. It is significant that almost all Occupy "movement" stories have failed to make it to the front page, and equally significant that people feel it necessary to nominate every latest little local difficulty (be it at Portland or New York or London). I have said before and do so again here - the race to get a front page story seems to have overtaken the Occupy "movement" itself.
doktorbwordsdeeds07:51, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Clearly, we do not disagree about the fact that those passionate about the Occupy movement have made many ITN nominations which do not pass muster. That's essentially going to be a given with any prolonged event that sparks the innate interests of our contributors. But if we're looking at this particular nomination within the context of its "wider issue"—the context of journalism within international human rights, as opposed to just the "Occupy" movement itself—then it's difficult to trivialize what has happened. Statements of concern and condemnation have been issued by the
Society of Professional Journalists, the
Committee to Protect Journalists,
Reporters Without Borders, and, perhaps most strikingly, the
OAS Special Rapporteur for Freedom of Expression. These bodies do not pander to the lowest common denominator; they're serious organizations that involve themselves only in the issues of most significant effect. — C M B J10:43, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I take your point, though a Google search suggests these arrests have not gathered much coverage, even in the 'alternative' media, and there's a sense that the news agenda has already moved on in any case. I don't think front page coverage of this minor development would be appropriate. It might put into question issues of bias and politics.
doktorbwordsdeeds12:33, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Arguably, this subject fails (or not) on notability grounds. But, your suggestion that posting this nomination is inappropriate because it "might put into question issues of bias and politics" is absurd nonsense. How does posting an ITN article about the NYPD's treatment of journalists covering the Occupy protests raise any inappropriate questions of "biased and political"? WHAT inappropriate bias and WHAT inappropriate politics would Wikipedia be facilitating by posting this topic?
DeterenceTalk12:47, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Ah, I chose a slightly different search term within Google News, I apologise. Looking from a neutral perspective, journalists have been mistreated and expelled all the time, it is part of the job in certain jurisdictions. Is it not likely to give Occupy undue credence by giving front page coverage to a story like this? I can't see anything particularly notable when the Occupy "movement" itself is of questionable worthiness.
doktorbwordsdeeds12:56, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
What? Doktorbuk, your primary objection to posting a story about journalists is that it might allow some mention of the Occupy protests to slip into the back corner of the room? You are completely OBSESSED with Occupy.
DeterenceTalk13:04, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
In those regions where human rights abuse is so common as to be reasonably anticipated, the inherent repetition and triviality of coverage would be the disqualifying factors for ITN. That's simply not the case here, though. It is notable when multiple mainstream journalists are arrested, while covering a peaceful demonstration, in a stable first world country. Insofar that the story lends credence to the Occupy movement, I'm prepared to concede that it most likely will in some way. But as for whether or not that credence is undue under these circumstances will undoubtedly come down to a matter of personal opinion. — C M B J13:24, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
CMBJ, whilst we disagree on allowing this nomination to be given front page inclusion, it is good to see that a topic can be discussed without personal insults. I was struck by how quickly personal digs were thrown around in discussions elsewhere, it's constructive to have discussions without having to resort to that. I cannot change my mind on this, unfortunately, although the case you make is very sound. It is not convincing enough for me, ultimately, and even observed neutrally the event looks more of an Occupy-based story than a police-based one. Because of that, the lens through which the story is viewed becomes more important than the story itself. That is why I voiced concerns earlier about bias and politics. Have you put this story into today's (or the relevant day's) current affairs template? I know that is no longer as popular as it once was, though it does allow you to make the news event known through Wikipedia whilst leaving this discussion here for people to see the debate which led to its ultimate rejection as a front page lead?
doktorbwordsdeeds13:46, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
New York Civil Liberties Union: "Swooping in, deliberately when no one is around, and then depriving the news media of access to information is entirely unacceptable."
Fordham University: "...rejected the mayor’s explanation that police were trying to protect reporters by keeping them away and instead accused them of trying to limit images that might rile up the public."
MoJo: "Cops just violently shoved me away as I tried to shoot this man in a stretcher being loaded into ambulance."
The Village Voice: "Rosie Gray, a [staff] writer, recounted telling a police officer, 'I’m press!' She said the officer responded, 'Not tonight.'"
RT: "...said she was hit with a police baton while trying to film the protests. She told another reporter for her network that she had her press credentials clearly visible, but was still struck. She also said that she witnessed another [network's] reporter being 'slammed against the wall' and arrested."
The Daily Caller: "The police officers were beating the protesters with batons, and were also beating the media. They hit Direna and me with batons. They hit other members of the press in order to get them to move out of the street. Direna had a camera in her hand and I had a microphone, and we were being hit."
NY1: "...reporters and photographers were thrown to the ground and 'pushed to the wall if they get in front of the wrong officer.' 'Those 20 minutes were some of the scariest of my life.'"
WBAI: "...was recorded on video by witnesses as police -- including four-star Chief of Department Chief Joseph Esposito -- subdued her both on the ground and against a wall, and handcuffed her. 'She's a journalist! She's a journalist!' cameraman Evan Shamar can clearly be heard screaming on a YouTube video he shot of the arrest, while his colleague was being taken down."
Brian Stelter: "They took a Post reporter and threw him in a chokehold."
Scott Stringer: "I cannot remember any time this many reporters were arrested during a protest … [T]he brash manner in which officers ordered reporters off the streets and then made them back off until the actions of the police were almost invisible is outrageous."
OAS Special Rapporteur for Freedom of Expression : "...disproportionate restrictions on access to the scene of the events, the arrests, and the criminal charges resulting from the performance of professional duties by reporters violate the right to freedom of expression."
PEN American Center: "...an obvious abridgement of the First Amendment right of all Americans to monitor official actions that clearly carry their own First Amendment concerns."
It's debatable whether or not this story is ITN worthy, but these statements are not reflexive of an event we would usually consider "minor." — C M B J14:26, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment Regardless of how strongly you feel about this issue, CMBJ, this nomination is not going to pass now. Let's focus our efforts on something else. JimSukwutput17:38, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
With all due respect, consensus
is not determined based upon popular support. It is "ultimately determined by the quality of the arguments given for and against an issue, as viewed through the lens of Wikipedia policy, not by a simple counted majority." Conclusions are not decided by "the mere weight of public expressions of support." — C M B J22:28, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Yes, but one person versus ten does not make a consensus, and you know this. I don't understand why you're wasting your time prolonging this discussion. You admit yourself that it's debatable whether or not the story is ITN worthy. JimSukwutput03:20, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
A valid discussion does not simply end because it meets a swath of opposition. In this case, we have two central arguments ocurring: (1) that all events related to the "Occupy" movement are automatically precluded from consideration because of precedent, and (2) that the event is too trivial for inclusion. The former has no basis in policy as it applies to this nomination, and the latter has been claimed but not demonstrated. Lastly, I admit that the nomination is debatable because I recognize that all nominations rightfully are; no objective contributor can ever claim otherwise. — C M B J03:51, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
...though such discussions can, ironically, sometimes end by default due to obsolescence from a paralyzing lack of rebuttals or new participants. The number of hours before that inevitably happens is now actually growing slim. — C M B J12:15, 20 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose: Seriously. A dozen journalists being roughed up and arrested is not notable to an international audience. And why are we even discussing the rights and wrongs of the police action? How is that even relevant towards establishing notability? And is the list of "police brutalities" given above supposed to shock our conscience? Hell, I got caned by the cops with a
lathi for dancing in the middle of the road while celebrating the World Cup victory earlier this year. Talk about
first world problems.
Chocolate Horlicks (
talk)
17:48, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
It is a
false equivalency to compare the use of force against participants of a sporting event with that of permitted observers at an internationally televised protest. Moreover, the issue of significance is not police brutality, but rather that credentialed reporters were quashed indiscriminately during an event of journalistic significance. — C M B J04:27, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's comments: IAEA has published numerous reports on Iran, none of which have been as strongly-worded and explicit as this one. The report has generated a unique response from the international community and world powers.
WikifanBe nice22:16, 17 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose They've been saying this about Iran for more years than I can count and they wrongly accused Iraq of the same thing for over a decade. And do we want to open the IAEA-is-a-spineless-puppet-of-the-White-House can of worms?
DeterenceTalk22:34, 17 November 2011 (UTC)reply
It is definitely more than a political threat, at least this time. I'm just really not sure what to make of it without further investigation by the IAEA or other international bodies. And right now, it doesn't seem to have garnered a very public reaction so far. No judgement on the merits of the actual nomination, though. EricLeb01 (
Page |
Talk)23:33, 17 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose. Iran has been suspected of that for decades. The IAEA can only point a finger at someone - if a country takes unusual action because of it, that would be more meaningful.
Mamyles (
talk)
01:02, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment I agree, Iran has been "suspected" for decades, but the IAEA has never made an official stance on Iran until this week. Former IAEA chief EB denied Iran may be weaponizing its nuclear program, but
Yukiya Amano came out and announced it to the whole world. The report is leading to a
showdown at the UN. So countries are taking unusual action in this situation.
WikifanBe nice01:10, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support - This blurb passes my standards for NPOV on a internationally notable and important news story. It is the fact of the report itself that makes this item ITN-worthy; the validity of the report is moot and our personal opinions about that are, or should be, of small import.
Jusdafax02:15, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Strong Support. Depending on your personal political views, IAEA's report might or might not be a fair accusation. But there is no doubt that the very accusation itself is significant politically. It's also incorrect to say that IAEA has been accusing Iran of the same thing for many years. This as far as I know is completely incorrect; just a few years ago they released a highly controversial report (contradicting U.S. official position) saying that Iran did not have a nuclear weapons program. This is by far the strongest accusation (and evidence, if you believe it is legitimate) that Iran has a nuclear weapons program from an UN agency. JimSukwutput05:56, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support What we might think about the organisation is irrelevant. What we think of the news itself is the thing, and given the nature of this report and its contents, I would be very happy to see this on the front page. It is clearly a notable additional extra element to the wider story.
doktorbwordsdeeds08:03, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I disagree. If a little-known group of Japanese politicians condemns the US for terroristic actions, that would be startling news by a worthless organization. The organization, and what action it can do, must be considered.
Mamyles (
talk)
11:17, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
True, but this is not a little-known organization, it's an international agency affiliated with the UN. As Deterence claims, there might be some controversy over political influence from some countries, but that does not by itself make the organization's accusations any less notable, particularly if countries still decide whether to act based on these accusations. Take for example the numerous calls for war in U.S. that arose as a result of the report. I believe they are ridiculous, but they have real-life consequences. JimSukwutput17:45, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Strong oppose Report with accusations is not quite a news, but only a suspect against someone. Even if proven, many other countries use their R&D to produce nuclear weapons, but we don't post it.--
Kiril Simeonovski (
talk)
14:01, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support Of major economic impact (financial markets and explicit threat of oil embargo by Iran), political impact (vide international relations, Sarkozy, Obama et al comments, Israel comments and potential actions) etc. These have not occurred "for many years." Using political concerns to keep it out of Wikipedia is like keeping the German warning ad about the Lusitania out of a putative Wikipedia a century ago.
Collect (
talk)
14:42, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Not ready. Sorry, but the wrong article is linked, both articles are not updated and have yellow hatnotes, and the consensus on posting this in principle better be more substantial.
GreyHoodTalk18:56, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment Updated the article, doubt anything about Iran should be added to IAEA. If editors want to switch out nuclear program with
Iran and weapons of mass destruction I wouldn't object, it would just seem less accurate. Any editors oppose the arguments in favor of posting other than "nothing really new here"?
WikifanBe nice19:18, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I can't read your mind. Updated "the article"? Which article? None of the ones above look updated to me. If I'm mistaken, tell me where. -- tariqabjotu22:42, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Well, what's not good enough? What else needs to be added Tariq? Be explicit, or post this. Majority of editors support posting. Very little reason not to. Nuclear program of Iran is already an extremely bloated article. Waiting for this to get stale is a mistake.
WikifanBe nice03:16, 20 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose This is a local issue with no global significance. "The IAEA accuses Iran of research" is a long way from an active weapons program or functional device. Should they develop a weapon, admit to having a program, or have some
Vanunu style extravaganza then maybe, but for now, no. --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
21:22, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Strong support with a slight feeling of disbelief this has not been posted. What is wrong with people here? A "local issue with no global significance"? On that basis we may as well shut down ITN now since nothing is going to hit a significance criteria set that high. There is a world of difference between hostile countries alleging essentially without foundation that weapons development is in progress and the recognised authority that regulates these matters releasing formal finds of fact based on investigation and solid evidence.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
02:30, 20 November 2011 (UTC).reply
I don't know why it's not posted yet. Article is updated fine, I added the "ready tag" but it was
removed. Didn't realize noms weren't allowed to add it. Unless editors provide a serious rationale why this isn't ready to be posted I suggest an admin post it. Certainly more significant than Euroasian and NLD, events posted with far less support.
WikifanBe nice03:15, 20 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Wikifan, don't make me repeat myself. The issue is not support. As had been said several times, it's the fact that in none of apparently three relevant articles, there is no sufficient update. This is quite typical of the ITN process. News items get adequate support, but articles don't get updated -- even after being told that the roadblock is an update. Nominators simply argue that updates are sufficient, further delaying the nomination's addition to ITN, rather than just adding a couple more sentences. Greyhood said the article was insufficiently updated thirty-six hours ago. Instead of fixing that problem, you've just argued and badgered me about it. Yeah, so what if the article is very long? If anything, that makes putting a sufficient update easier as it won't take up an undue percentage of the article. And if this is so significant, surely it warrants a more lengthy explanation than, I don't know, the fact that Iran didn't let two inspectors into the country last summer. I don't need to "be explicit". We have guidelines that specifically state how long the update needs to be. It doesn't even meet that. This seems to be a very significant development in Iran's nuclear program, but the supposed update does not communicate that. In fact, it communicates little more than the proposed blurb. -- tariqabjotu08:31, 20 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment Okay Tariq. I have since added more to the article that hopefully meets the
criteria (greater than five sentences). Contributions include additions to the lead and a totally unique section. Hard article to edit considering the shape it is in. I don't know what can be added to IAEA. I don't think anything can be added to IAEA. So if there aren't any other issues I believe this can be posted now.
WikifanBe nice09:38, 20 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's comments: Currently the top world news at the BBC and has been covered extensively in the UK at least. This has been described as the Free Syrian Army's (made up of anti-government deserters) highest profile attack so far. It was made against the feared
Air Force Intelligence Directorate building in
Harasta and other targets in Zamalke, Hamuriya and Douma. The attack was well co-ordinated and planned and is the first on a major security facility in Syria, I feel this is a major development. Perhaps could be used as an amendment to the current blurb. --
Dumelow (
talk)
12:07, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose for now the current top story is about Syria and has been for DAYS, we're not going to post every little development in that conflict. Bombing has been routine over there this is nothing new, partially destroying a building (BTW "partially destroying" could mean that they just broke a window glass) is not exceptional and is still an unconfirmed report based on Syrian opposition claims (Remember how the Libyan NTC repeatedly lied about making major breakthroughs in the war?). Also I just realized that the current story featured seems wrong; the BBC says "The meeting is expected to ratify last week's vote to suspend Syria and also debate possible further measures against Damascus.",
[18] So basically what they did is agree on suspending but have not actually done so as of now. --
Tachfin (
talk)
15:46, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose based on article, neither bolded article has any substantial mention of the attack. --`
Golbez (
talk)
Comment This should have been posted months back, while this isn't the ideal incident to start posting, the commencement of the civil war which is closely foreseeable should be swiftly posted with a low consensus.
YuMaNuMa (
talk)
10:08, 17 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support obviously. As for whether the articles are ready - it's true that the updates for this specific events are minimal, but given that we haven't posted anything about the uprising except for the Arab League decision, a substantial part of the latter article can be considered updates of recent events. The article is also of exceptional quality (well-written and well-cited). JimSukwutput16:15, 17 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Usually, we don't write names in the blurb. However, if we omit the names, the blurb is too short. Yet again, we cannot say like ... with three astronauts.... as there are one astronaut and two cosmonauts. With 3 men sounds lame. Any other suggestion? Ready to post otherwise. --Tone16:56, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I may have forgotten something, but isn't the significance of this being the first docking with the station since the final Space Shuttle mission in July? That at least helps put this in perspective. --
MASEM (
t)
21:48, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
As far as i remember expeditions to ISS were made an exception unless it was more than just crew change. I am going to oppose this one since nothing significant has taken place that differs this Soyuz mission from last one or next one. This should not be ITNR --
Ashish-g5519:39, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
This is especially significant as there was consideration of having to abandon the station, because of the crash of an unmanned Progress cargo ship in August (mentioned in the above source). That they were able to successfully conduct this flight provides continuity of operations.
Mamyles (
talk)
20:01, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Progress and Soyuz missions are very different though. If the last Soyuz (TMA) crashed i would totally agree. Its quite a bit like saying a delta rocket crahsed so we should post the next shuttle launch (obviously ignoring significance of such launch). --
Ashish-g5520:06, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
When we were updating the space criteria I argued that routine crew rotation shouldn't be on ITNR. Consensus went against me, and they do indeed qualify under the new criteria. I obviously disagree with this, but it was what was decided at the time.
Modest Geniustalk21:37, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support - Significant for a number of reasons, including the fact that the USA is now hitching a ride to get to the ISS. Disagree that this should not be on ITNR; this is an important moment in international relations, and of major interest in the wake of previous talk of abandoning the station, as noted by Mamyles. I do agree that the article needs more than one sentence for the update.
Jusdafax20:51, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Question All the shuttle missions were on ITN, but were the Russian and Chinese manned missions as well? I remember at least one Chinese (their first I think) made it to ITN. I'm honestly just curious. --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
03:23, 17 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Pressure is applied to the Syrian government from many sides as
Turkey threatens to cut electricity to its southern neighbor, while the
European Union increases sanctions on the regime.
(CNN)
Chinese artist
Ai Weiwei pays 8.45 million
yuan in taxes after receiving a large number of donations from supporters who believe the debt was politically motivated because of his criticism of the Chinese government.
(CNN)
Police in the
English city of
Birmingham arrest four men in the
Sparkhill district in a major anti-terrorism operation.
(BBC)
Article updated The nominated event is listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: Never before made an ITN nomination, so please don't castigate me if I've caused some problems. Someone please fill in the "ITNR" and "minority" columns for me, because I don't know what they are. --
Nyttend backup (
talk)
22:51, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Ready Extensive article with considerable referencing. It is certainly better quality than the majority of election ITN/R we see on this page. While the election was 8 days ago, the official results have only just been released, on the 15th of November. I've removed the minority topic tag.
DeterenceTalk23:03, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support but the use of the term "disputed election" in the blurb does not seem right. There doesn't seem to be any allegation of fraud or irregularity, but the strong possibility of an effective voter boycott. I'm not sure how we succinctly express that, but we need to. --
FormerIP (
talk)
00:42, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Something other than the tables in the Results section would be nice. Perhaps a couple sentences or a paragraph summarizing the results? -- tariqabjotu02:15, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
What if we changed it to something like "is certified as the winner"? That would allow us to leave out the disputed part without sacrificing NPOV.
Nyttend (
talk)
03:08, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
EJS is reelected as the president as Tubman boycotts the second round? Not perfect either... However, I remember some time ago when we had the parliamentary election in Egypt, we just stated the winner and not the fact that the biggest opposition party boycotted the election. --Tone08:47, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Mistral's comment makes me wonder if we need to say that she was elected, since that's relatively old news: the news is that she's now known to be the winner. Couldn't we just ignore the question of dispute by concentrating on the announcement that she's the winner?
Nyttend (
talk)
12:29, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
This is not a long section, so I imagine it wouldn't take too much of your time to read what everyone else has said, including my still unanswered comment as to why this isn't up to standards yet. -- tariqabjotu20:37, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Considering our normal standards and the fact that this is an event with a whole 70K article dedicated to it, I'd say there is such a thing as over-fussy. --
FormerIP (
talk)
20:40, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Your attitude and Tone's capitulation still doesn't negate your laziness. The article does not mention the results in the appropriate section, which is the key news item here. ITN has taken quite the dive over the past several weeks. Posting the same types of trope articles with poor updates out of desperation because second-tier events with much better updates get shot down. Refusing to post poorly updated articles like these is not "over-fussy"; it's maintaining the quality of the section, which some people -- like, apparently, Tone -- are not willing to do. -- tariqabjotu21:48, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I don't get what the issue is. A table is as good as a paragraph for explaining who got what number of votes in an election. In fact, it's better, unless you're a fan of
extremely boring prose. We normally ask for a few lines of update, but here, we have paragraph after paragraph of a new article dealing with the elections. And this is our first news since fucking Saturday. I can agree with you about items being shot down, but blocking other articles as a response would be childish. I assume that's nothing to do with your trivial objection here. --
FormerIP (
talk)
23:33, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
You're tripping over yourself, and in doing so are proving my point. You basically say that because we haven't gotten any updates since Saturday, we should lower our update standards to push an article onto ITN (yeah, don't pretend as if I'm making up and raising standards as some sort of "response"). Like I said, I don't think that's acceptable. If there's any standard to lower in times of drought, it's the consensus standard. Our goal, after all, is to showcase updated articles, not showcase articles that everyone wants on the Main Page. So, well-updated updates with borderline consensus should take precedence over poorly updated articles with unanimity. And about tables... don't your remember your high school science teacher who docked points for failing to put a caption and title for your tables? This is the equivalent. Yeah, these tables have titles, but you need some context, an explanation, a paragraph explaining what the tables just put in numbers. It's not so difficult to put that together. And I fully intend to take Tone up on his offer to pull the item should this not be corrected in the next few hours. -- tariqabjotu00:45, 17 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Well, the results and all relevant info were in the introduction the last time I checked. Still, feel free to pull the item until the issue is solved, I don't mind. --Tone21:57, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support - significant story, article is clearly ready to go (a disagreement over the best way to present results really shouldn't prevent it going up).
Warofdreamstalk15:27, 17 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose I would be uneasy in supporting a nomination about the murder of an internationally famous celebrity, let alone the murder of a relatively unknown rugby player whose main claim to fame is based on the colour of his skin when he scored a try.
DeterenceTalk01:32, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
[Posted] First gas summit of the Gas Exporting Countries Forum
Nominator's comments: First summit of the organization which members have 2/3 of world natural gas reserves; continues movement towards "Gas-OPEC".
Beagel (
talk)
11:47, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support. The summit only has a few sentences in the article, but featuring the GECF is important and significant as an international development.
Mamyles (
talk)
12:38, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose based on article, the article is internally inconsistent (the map doesn't match the member list), and there's only 12 words devoted to the update, which demands a much more substantial treatment. Mamyles says featuring the GECF summit is important, and they may be right, but as it is the article doesn't explain what's special about the summit. Nothing sets it apart in the article from the 13 meetings before. --
Golbez (
talk)
13:28, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Updated. However, summit and ministerial meetings are not the same thing. The last (thirteenth) ministerial meeting was held on 13 November 2011, the first summit was held on 15 November 2011. Also, the map is correct except about Oman, which was accepted as a full member last Sunday. All other members and observers are correctly presented and correspond to the information in the article. Request have been made to update the map about Oman.
Beagel (
talk)
18:24, 18 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Unsure, but leaning to oppose. It looks to me like the news is that a group a ministers that has met every year since 2001 has this year decided to brand its meeting a "summit" instead of a "ministerial meeting". --
FormerIP (
talk)
13:31, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment. The article was updated, and the summit is not just a re-brending of the annual meetings of the gas OPEC ministers, as Beagel has shown. This answers most of the concerns voiced above. As this is a minority topic, we may do with a lower level of consensus here, so marking [Ready].
GreyHoodTalk00:50, 19 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose Here as in the nomination from yesterday. This is not front page material. It is "local police clearing a public space". The numbers involved in this specific incident is not enough to justify a notable front page news event, nor is the police behaviour more than would be normally expected under the circumstances. As has been mentioned before, no Occupy incident has yet been proven notable enough by the nominator for front page inclusion. This little local difficulty does not change that.
doktorbwordsdeeds11:08, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
"local police clearing a public space"? Your assessment is so utterly simplistic that it is bordering on the ridiculous. Or you are trolling.
DeterenceTalk00:41, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support in contrast to most of the OWS hooks we have seen posted, this is a significant development. The NYC camp is the flagship and the government shutting it down by force will be a game changer. A check with Google News shows that this shutdown in being covered in depth by basically every news organization.
JORGENEV11:26, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose. That "everyone else is covering it" does not make minor protest changes significant. Media are only covering these in depth because a small group would again complain loudly if it wasn't covered 100%.
Mamyles (
talk)
12:34, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Adding to my reasoning, this action is expected and used often with protests on private property. Protestors were breaking the park rules (camping), repeatedly warned and asked to leave by police & owners, then arrested for trespassing. The temporary eviction, to clean and prevent further camping, is not startling. Note that the legal rationale for eviction is trespassing, as owners explicitly asked police to conduct the operation.
I agree that these events are of diehard importance to a small group. This could qualify for ITN. However, the blurb now is heavily biased toward protestors. I would weakly support a blurb like "Occupy Wall Street protestors in NYC were temporarily evicted from Zuccotti Park by police for safety and trespassing violations," which is a neutral POV stating the fact, duration, and reason of eviction.
Mamyles (
talk)
03:49, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
That isn't anywhere close to being a "neutral POV stating the fact". For a start, the eviction is not temporary (and only the most gullible ever believed it was going to be temporary). As for the reason behind the eviction being public "safety", I didn't think anyone was naive enough to swallow that line.
DeterenceTalk04:06, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose based on article and nom - the article only states that on Nov 15, police started clearing it. Is it ongoing? Did they completely clear it? The article update is not sufficient for ITN. I would probably support if the update were more substantial. Also, the nom is issued in bad faith, apparently some people still can't get their lives past the fact that Joe Paterno got on ITN. --
Golbez (
talk)
13:32, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support correct me if I'm wrong, but we've posted protested from Greece, Spain, and the UK among others. Yet this doesn't a have a snowball's chance in hell despite its international coverage. Its CBC's and BBC's top headline yes, I realize everyone gets a different BBC headline and at some point we need to realize this isn't some minor fad. I'm not saying we need to post the minutia of it, but the clearing of the main camp does seem important.
Hot Stoptalk-
contribs13:47, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Suggestion: would it possibly make sense to combine the Portland one below with the NYC one here as a single blurb on the Occupy protests? --
MASEM (
t)
13:49, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support. Arguments based on describing something, removing the noteworthy elements from your description and then asking why the event is noteworthy are not valid. The same can be done with any event. This event is noteworthy because the world's media finds it so. It's not our role to second-guess. Plus we need to post something new. Note to Hotstop: I don't think we have posted Occupy protests from Greece, Spain and the UK. Those places are not in the US, after all. --
FormerIP (
talk)
13:53, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
lol I get it, we only post news from the US! that explains why we would never post about Syria, Italy, Mexico, Greece, Africa, or cars that aren't in NASCAR! --
Golbez (
talk)
14:15, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Note that Wikipedia is
not a newspaper, therefore what the media posts is not always relevant. ITN serves simply to bring significant event articles of wide interest to the community's attention. Events are notable when consensus here proves so.
Mamyles (
talk)
01:00, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment Look at our current ITN: we have one country-wide violent uprising that has been about to turn into a civil war for quite some time; three changes to major political players on three continents; one guy becoming the all-time greatest motorsport driver in world history; an extinction of a sub-species; and a minority topic from fine arts. Now just ask yourself: what has our New York's finest evicting 200 people from one place to another anything – just anything at all – to do with these other stories? It compares not even closely to them in significance, even if it is drummed by all media outlets 24/7. It might suffice as a counter-culture minority topic, but as counter-culture is almost always very much politically radical, I don't think that we, as an encyclopedia and a reference work, should dwell too deep down that road. I would be inclined to exclude anything having to do with political philosophy from the definition of a "minority topic," not only due to immerse problems with original research. It just somehow.. doesn't fit the dignity of an encyclopedia to post fresh news of (mostly young) people democratically protesting the police on its main page. I hope you can understand.. --
hydrox (
talk)
14:43, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Further Comment re:Hydrox It is worth understanding that Hydrox has nailed the issue on the head for this nomination and others. This eviction has been, gone, and disappeared in the night. It's already just another stale story amongst dozens (if not hundreds) in this on-going leaderless narrative that is the Occupy "movement". Wikipedia rightly gave prominence to the Arab Spring because the event had "Point A, Persons B and C, and Event D". Occupy has got every letter of the alphabet in a bag and refuses to even lay then out for inspection. This story is, as Hydrox says, "200 people evicted from a public place". And that's it. There's nothing more to the story, so why put it on the front page? I would go so far as to suggest that all Occupy story nominations are automatically shut-down by way of WP:SNOW.
doktorbwordsdeeds16:10, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment Suggest rebranding this. The occupy protests are being raided in many cities today (New York, Toronto, London), one month after the global day of action, and the overall shutting down of the occupations may warrant a posting in the very near future. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲτ¢17:05, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose - we can't post every new development in the occupy XY saga. Not really a newsworthy incident, given the small numbers of protestors involved.
Pantherskin (
talk)
19:35, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment - the rules are wrong here This story is a real problem for ITN. There is a global movement happening, and it's now at the stage where many instances of that movement are being closed down by authorities. (It has happened in my city.) No single instance of a close down will satisfy ITN guidelines. The Opposes above are technically correct. The real news is the fact that it's happening in many places, more or less concurrently. But no news outlets are reporting on it that way. They are all looking locally. We are the GLOBAL encyclopaedia, but for us to somehow combine instances here would be classic
WP:SYNTHESIS, and totally unacceptable according to our rules. But it is happening, and it's significant. Our rules are preventing us from telling the real story here. I don't know the solution.
HiLo48 (
talk)
20:01, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
There's
T:TDYK to bring attention to articles. In
Portal:Current events there are 5 specific incidents covered in the last week and a list of the articles about the occupy movement. People who want to know about it will just type Occupy (whatever) in the search box. We are not hiding the information.
Richard-of-Earth (
talk)
20:24, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
HiLo48, I couldn't agree more. And we're experiencing similar difficulties in ITN with nominations about the Syrian civil war, the Eurozone debt crisis and even Greece. Of course, it wouldn't be a problem if more editors would use a bit of common sense instead of wikilawyering every topic they don't like into oblivion.
DeterenceTalk23:07, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Strong Support - I don't understand the hate-on for the Occupy protests here. The end of the New York protest is significant. The movement was in ITN when it was born, now it's dead and deserves mention. --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
00:47, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Hi Mamyles, NYT says "judge upheld the city’s move to clear the park and bar the protesters from bringing back their tents or staying overnight".
[20] Whats your source? --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
01:18, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Protestors are in the park now, as shown by the image depicting police allowing them back, and the article you just quoted. They may not legally camp there, including tents, which was actually in the park rules (as set by the land owner) throughout the protests. That development is not really anything new.
Mamyles (
talk)
02:54, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
So they can no longer permanently occupy the park, just visit for a while, as per park rules. Sounds like the death of "occupy" wall street to me... The NYC movement, as it was for months, has been killed. Major shift, major story. --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
03:01, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment - I know ITN/C isn't a simple majority vote. I've seen numerous "occupy" events shot at in the last few weeks, including 1000s of protesters closing down the port of oakland. At the same time, I saw "Support support support, JoePa!". I don't get it. Anyway, kindly consider:
Comment I've heard more negative comments about Wikipedia in the preceding weeks than I have ever, due to the failure to cover this movement in ITN. Many users that do not understand how Wikipedia works think that the company/organization itself is censoring major news on this important movement. I submit my personal theory (and likely shared by more than a few) that this continued oversight is costing Wikipedia support.
el.nuevo.miguel17:24, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Seriously? The Occupy Wall Street protest is the FLAGSHIP protest that inspired similar protests by countless thousands of protesters in literally hundreds of towns and cities in every country in the Western world, and you cannot appreciate why this is "any different"? Ashishg55, it's taking a hell of a lot of personal self-control not to tear you a new one over that remark.
DeterenceTalk01:59, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
point i was making is many cities have same situation where people are being forced to leave. Just because New York was first one does not mean we need up to minute updates on ITN. And if i wasnt in good mood then i would be looking to get you blocked right now for that comment Deterence. --
Ashish-g5502:06, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
And we post lots of situations where people are being forced to leave. This was the seat of a movement which had off-shots in 100s of cities. Portland, Toronto, Miami, DC, and so on and so forth. It was the "Occupy Wall Street" movement, and now police have run them out at the end of a bayonet. That's a big difference from chasing the homeless out of downsview park. I do appreciate your restraint in the face of some passionate but clearly inappropriate remarks. --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
02:13, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment I'm a bit dismayed by the wall of Opposes here. Several people here seem to be setting the bar for the inclusion of Occupy Wall Street on ITN way too high. Yeah, we don't need to post every development in this event, but we haven't. We posted about this a month and a half ago, and that's about it. Even then, people complained this wasn't of international significance (especially because the previous event was even more minor and fleeting), just a localized hippie-fest. When it went global in mid-October, that wasn't sufficient. And, now, with the New York flagship protest dramatically dismantled (and note the eviction has now been upheld by a judge), that's not good enough either. It's fine if you still think this hasn't met your standards, but, frankly, short of the protesters being murdered, it seems some people just don't want Occupy Wall Street anywhere on the Main Page, often because of dismay with the movement (lack of organization, unclear goals, etc.). Okay, I got that. You don't have to support the movement. You don't have to think their protest is effective. You don't have to think the people involved are productive members of society who can't afford to put their lives on hold for days or weeks on end. But, you can't deny that the protest, and particularly last night's incident, has received international attention, even if it's not the most important event, or among the fifty most important events, happening in the world right now. For the umpteenth time, this section is called In the News, not What Should Be In the News. So, while it's okay to oppose this nomination, please don't be so closed-minded to nominations related to Occupy Wall Street or celebrities or Theme X because you personally don't think they're meaningful -- especially with ITN as stagnant as it is now. -- tariqabjotu02:30, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The events in NYC were boring. There was no bloodshed. Compare this when they took over the Port of Oakland (mayhem). If there was an ITN-able event from the OWS movement, it was the event in Oakland, not this. Unless of course they (the NYC occupiers) riot over this. –HTD03:37, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Yeah, I'm one of the guys who opposed this and yes, I've seen the threshold for ITN generally being pushed higher and higher over time. My personal guess for the reason is that notability being a subjective criteria, everybody has their own inherent bias and difference of opinion on how important a topic is, and when a nomination gets shot down for reason of lack of notability, this leads to situation where people think "You think X topic is not notable enough to cross the notability barrier? If that's where you are drawing the threshold, then I dont see how Y topic (which in my mind is far less significant than X topic) can cross that threshold." This has lead to the threshold being pushed further and further up with a something bordering on
crab mentality preventing nominations from going through. I cant really think of a solution to this.
Chocolate Horlicks (
talk)
07:09, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Given that your edit came over 12 hours after I made the above comment, and it still does not warrant a mention in the lead, it cant be a significant episode in the whole event. Therefore I stand my my OpposeMtking (edits) 06:28, 17 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The rhetoric that I used was not intended to be taken literally. Regardless, on what basis do you assume that these details do not warrant inclusion in the lead? Content contribution, or the lack thereof, is unrelated to the merit of a subject. And just to be clear here, we're talking about the confiscation of a
NBC reporter's press pass, an assault on a
New York Post reporter, the grounding of NBC and
CBS news choppers, and the arrests of reporters for the
Associated Press, the
New York Times and
NPR. I'd reason that if this many journalists encountered similar belligerence in virtually any other part of the world, it would be easily fast-tracked through ITN within a few hours time. — C M B J07:16, 17 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Therein lies the rub - if it happened in any other part of the world, those disgraceful acts (and unlawful acts, unless the 1st Amendment has been repealed in recent days) would not have been perpetrated by the NYPD. As we have seen in the past, the majority of editors in ITN have zero tolerance for anything that even hints at negativity or disrespect or anything short of 100% subservience towards their beloved American cops. Especially the NYPD. If ever you wanted a clear insight into the conservative demographic that dominates in ITN, it is the tantrums they throw whenever anyone dares to criticise an American cop.
DeterenceTalk07:34, 17 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment - let's address this more broadly I have begun a thread at
Wikipedia talk:In the news to address the fact that the rules won't let us talk about the whole Occupy movement here. Feel free to contribute. (Constructively please.)
HiLo48 (
talk)
04:22, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Strong support - The documented use of force against multiple professional journalists—anywhere in the world, and by any organized body—is automatic ITN criteria in my books. — C M B J05:46, 17 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The nominated event is listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
I didn't notice that the results were actually announced on Thursday. This could maybe just scrape in still, but perhaps it is stale. The article looks ready. --
FormerIP (
talk)
19:12, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Normally I'd say post it anyway, but the article looks pretty bad. The update's there, but the lead is a single sentence and most of the sections lack substance. Plus the fact that the result was no surprise. Nightw20:39, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose, seeing no information in article on this, nor the use of "chemical weapons" (I'm sure we could find a more hyperbolic term for 'tear gas' if we really tried.) --
Golbez (
talk)
15:07, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Well, now it's not, but as of the moment you made your nom it had no information that was in the nom. Striking my oppose as the primary reason was the lack of update, but I still don't think it qualifies for front page. --
Golbez (
talk)
15:42, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Not to be pedantic, but we made our edits in the same minute: 15:21 UTC. So it's reasonable for me to still see an unupdated article. Updates should occur before the nom. --
Golbez (
talk)
15:48, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose It is worth noting that almost none, if any at all, Occupy stories have ever made it to the front page. Consensus on this page has been very clear - this is a little local difficulty, it is not a front page news event. This development is just a small point in a largely self-generated story. Nothing in this story is worth giving credence.
doktorbwordsdeeds15:31, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
<e/c>Neutral - There exists a dissonance between
WP:ITN and the rest of Wikipedia mainspace regarding the notability of these events. According to the Occupy AFDs, they are considered notable enough to be posted, yet
WP:ITN consensus states that it is not. Should this dissonance perhaps be resolved?--
WaltCip (
talk)
15:56, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
AfDs discuss notability for mainspace retention: that is a lot lower threshold than ITN notability. If people are making comments at AfD about ITN-worthiness that is in the wrong place: this is where eligibility under those higher criteria are properly scrutinized. There is no inconsistency there.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
16:06, 14 November 2011 (UTC).reply
Oppose on neutrality concerns: the current blurb is part of the problem: it's simply too emotive and not remotely compatible with NPOV. I have similar concerns, albeit not a strong, about the actual article: I could easily run through it placing half a dozen issues templates and who knows how many "citation needed"s. The whole "chemical weapons" thing is problematic but so are the impact weapons comments. These are normal law enforcement tactics, and dressing up the story in hyperbole for political ends does not alter that.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
16:03, 14 November 2011 (UTC).reply
Support Despite being carried daily my all the major media outlets in the western world for many weeks, the Occupy protests have been virtually ignored by ITN. Sadly, I suspect (read: know damn well) that there are a lot more personal politics behind the opposition to posts about the Occupy protests than honest assessment of the ITNworthiness of the Occupy nominations - the votes of some editors on these issues are more predictable than the rising of the sun.
Golbez, Crispmuncher, etc, clearly, the use of the term "chemical agents" (which redirects to "chemical weapons") is rhetorical, bordering on hyperbole. As is the idiotic term "impact weapons". But, if you had done ANY reading on this matter then you would know that that is the ridiculous language used by law enforcement on the scene: "while officers used loudspeakers to warn protesters that anyone who resisted risked arrest and could be "subject to chemical agents and impact weapons"." I guess the mayor's PR office thought "chemical agents and impact weapons" sounded better than "our crack team of wife-beaters are going to stomp a bunch of hippies into the pavement with battons and tear-gas".
DeterenceTalk19:49, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
"ANY reading" Not my job. The article did not contain any reference to chemical anything so all I had to go on was the nomination; I had no reason to believe the hyperbole was caused by the police and not by the nom. When it was pointed out I clammed up but if you insist: I apologize for accusing the nom of hyperbole. (Though, it should have been contained in quotes, should it not? Especially since the nature of said agents exists solely in a statement and we don't know what these agents and impact weapons are?) --
Golbez (
talk)
20:06, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I agree with you 100% that the phrase "chemical agents and impact weapons" should have been in quotes. Especially given the provocative nature of such language. I have amended the blurb accordingly. As for not knowing what "chemical agents and impact weapons" the police use, I rather hope we all have better imaginations than that. Hint: the "impact weapons" are not feather dusters.
DeterenceTalk20:22, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
If you any reading you would have seen the blurb has been revised since my post: it did refer to "chemical weapons" which is a truly ridiculous stretch. However, my concerns stand: this is essentially a minor and routine detail of standard law enforcement practices. Putting in the blurb like that is still POV due to undue prominence. Are we trying to suggest police don't reach for their batons everyday when dealing with low-level disorder?
Crispmuncher (
talk)
21:48, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Of course I know the blurb has been revised. I revised it. Regardless, no one is denying that this is a routine behaviour by American cops. It is the scale of the Occupy movement that makes this development notable. Isn't that obvious?
DeterenceTalk22:42, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment on the blurb: There are no "U.S. riot police". I suggest omitting "U.S." altogether, or saying, "In the United States, ". Also, no hyphen in shut down. --
Golbez (
talk)
20:20, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose per
76.18.43.253... Seriously I'm neutral on this, but I believe a major protest (I have no idea if this one is) in a major country should deserve a mention sometimes, it's not as if it happens every other week. --
Tachfin (
talk)
01:39, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
What? Countless thousands of protesters in hundreds of towns and cities spread over every country in the Western world (and more than a few in the developing world). The only people who are still kidding themselves that this isn't a "major protest" (indeed, a contender for the biggest protest in the history of Democracy) are trolling Republicans. I'm a right-winger who treats
The Fountainhead like a bible and disagrees with 90% of the Occupy agenda, but even I'm not tarded enough to pretend this is a non-event.
DeterenceTalk03:00, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
But this nomination isn't about the thousands of protesters in hundreds of towns and cities spread over every country in the Western world (and more than a few in the developing world). It's about Riot (sic) police shutting down Occupy Portland. Yes, there is something global happening, and it is newsworthy, but I'm not sure how we include it here.
HiLo48 (
talk)
07:01, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose. I don't think the blurb is that bad, though I don't see a good reason to include the police's "threat" (how about mentioning some of the "kill the pigs" chants from the protesters?). But overall this event does not strike me as being particularly notable. JimSukwutput06:21, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose Updated Blurb Continuation of existing nominated story adds only that protesters are now being removed. This is a natural continuation of the story and does not add further credibility to the nomination or notability to the event. That a local police force are clearing a protest from a public space is not news, certainly not front page Wikipedia news
doktorbwordsdeeds09:33, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
At this point, I doubt that you would support an ITN nomination about the Occupy protests even if the NYPD charged in with tanks and opened fire on a group of hippy school children. Btw, I wasn't proposing a new blurb. I was quoting the BBC news source.
DeterenceTalk09:37, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Undercover British police officer
Mark Kennedy admits that, in the guise of an environmental activist, he was used by the police forces of 22 countries, was responsible for the closing down of the Youth House community centre in
Copenhagen, and committed two crimes on behalf of German police between 2004 and 2009, one of which was arson.
(The Guardian)
Oppose on the nominator not even making sure the proper article was linked, which implies the nominator didn't even see if the article was updated, which implies it can't make it onto ITN. --
Golbez (
talk)
15:08, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Now that we have a proper link, my vote stands: No assertion of notability made, I would say the article as it is would not survive AFD. --
Golbez (
talk)
20:23, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment: Its kicked up quite a row and the US apologizing isn't common. But the article and the blurb need some work. Also, "has his clothes removed", makes it seem like he was strip-searched, but reports say only his jacket and shoes were removed.
[31].
Chocolate Horlicks (
talk)
19:27, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose. In my opinion this isn't really news. Some important figure had to go through security checks most of the world submits to without incident. Beyond tabloid talk of US bias against India, I don't see why anyone should care.
Mamyles (
talk)
20:38, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Are you cracking a funny? Are you seriously suggesting that a former American President or the UK Prime Minister would be equally be subjected to such treatment?
DeterenceTalk19:54, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Shouldn't they be proud to take part in our wonderful security apparatus? If not, then aren't they saying that 'normal' American citizens, by virtue of not being elected or rich, are presumed guilty before innocent? I would say the bigger news would be if he was searched without regret, but sadly our government has already apologized for following the procedure it inflicts on everyone else who flies through our airports. With the apology it officially becomes a mistake in procedure that, at worst, has issued a minor insult upon a former leader. Shit happens; not news. Now, if India wants to make something of it, by withdrawing an ambassador or calling for sanctions, first the world will stare blankly at the stupidity of it, and then we would post it on ITN, because then it would be news. --
Golbez (
talk)
20:10, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I agree that former Presidents of India (and the USA) should be subjected to the same degrading and intrusive security measures as the rest of us. I just don't think that a former Indian President should be treated worse than a former UK Prime Minister.
DeterenceTalk20:26, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Then the news would be that the former British PM was not subjected to standard security screening, not that the former Indian president was. And that story is likely stale. --
Golbez (
talk)
20:30, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I think planes should be made out of glass and everyone should ride it naked.</sarcasm> Seriously though, this is greatly off topic. --
A Certain White Catchi? 22:16, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
Support This has been front page headline news in my part of the world for a day now. A name instantly recognised by all cricket fans who haven't just been sucked in by the frantic T20 trash.
HiLo48 (
talk)
19:16, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose Not a significant enough person, in my view. I agree that he was "one of the finest cricket writers of his generation" but I don't think that's enough. Also, about 60% of his biography is dedicated to controversies:
Peter_Roebuck#1986_controversy,
Peter_Roebuck#Assault_conviction, and the circumstances of his death. If he really was one of the greatest writers of his generation, a good biography would surely have more to say about it. --
Mkativerata (
talk)
19:26, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
So, we have "one of the finest cricket writers of his generation" dying in unexpected and dramatic circumstances, but that's not significant enough? I feel for all those current and aspiring cricket writers out there. None will ever appear here.
HiLo48 (
talk)
23:20, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose. I guess that Roebuck counts an internationally known figure, but not in recent years and not to the extent, IMO, that his death qualifies for ITN. Also, considering the circumstances of the death... --
FormerIP (
talk)
19:28, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
By "circumstances of the death...", are you referring to his apparent suicide? Developing media reports suggest that it wasn't just your average suicide. And even if it was, should it stop us listing him?
HiLo48 (
talk)
23:20, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Out of respect for the dead, I don't think we should go into it too much. But, reading media reports and our own article, people might read between the lines, rightly or wrongly, and make assumptions about Roebuck's personal life. we don't say anything that isn't sourced. But, all the same, I think we should not link the article from the front page whilst it is subject to likely speculation. --
FormerIP (
talk)
00:06, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oh, come on. There has been speculation about
Michael Jackson's death for the past two years, and we didn't stop posting about him. The seeming controversy about Roebuck's death makes this event more notable. And I really don't accept "Out of respect for the dead..." as a reason for leaving something out of an encyclopaedia.
HiLo48 (
talk)
01:22, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Who said anything about leaving it out of the encyclopaedia? Just not linking from the front page at a time when eyebrows are raised and the facts are not known. Probably a bit academic anyway, since the predominant view seems to be that Roebuck is too obscure in any case.--
FormerIP (
talk)
01:49, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose, he may be a former captain of
Somerset County Cricket Club, but he's not really globally notable: even within cricket circles, he's not a huge figure. As part of an
ongoing project I aim to significantly improve the article in the future, but as said above, the circumstances are getting murkier too. Harriastalk21:15, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Now that's just a silly thing to say so soon after we very rapidly posted about purely American college football paedophile story. Roebuck's story is far more international.(Even though we're told it doesn't have to be.)
HiLo48 (
talk)
01:24, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Not sure: my gut says, "No, he's not important enough, no one outside of cricket would care". However, Roebuck is clearly "widely regarded as a very important figure in his or her field" (from
WP:ITN/DC), that is, over 600 major cricket matches and one of the best known cricket writers of his generation. His death received attention in a number of countries over a number of days, so "lacks international significance" is hardly an argument.
IgnorantArmies03:30, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Some fields are limited enough that being a very important figure in that field is not enough. If there were a way of identifying the top journalist, or even top sports journalist, there might be a case for inclusion. If there were a way of categorising and tabulating influential ex-cricketers, there might be a case. But the narrow field of cricket journalism (and what grounds are there that he was outstanding in that field anyway), that is not enough. Oppose.
Kevin McE (
talk)
07:15, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Now, that's an idiotic post. Immediately after I posted a link to very clear evidence of how noteworthy this person and the event is, you say it's not. And I have seen several attempts here to post an old age death of someone famous, rejected precisely because the circumstances of death were not noteworthy. This time they obviously are. Now, I don't mind if this doesn't get posted after a sensible, objective discussion, but that post is rubbish.
HiLo48 (
talk)
09:27, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I'm grateful for your considered and well thought out response. I didn't say he's not "notable" as a person deserving an article here - I'm saying his death is not sufficiently noteworthy to be mentioned on the main page here. The fact that it's mentioned, somewhere probably not generally on the front page, in media in cricket-playing countries is not important. It's not a very big item of news. He was a sportsman and a writer who died. Happens all the time. Not important enough. "Idiot" =
Ghmyrtle (
talk)
09:35, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I'm the first to admit that cultural differences between people across the world can sometimes cause difficulties in communication, but in that little chat we've just had your responses seem to have been made as if you have read nothing of what I have just posted in each case. I find such things very frustrating, and shall leave our little chat with that comment.
HiLo48 (
talk)
10:15, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose--Kevin McE pretty much nails it for me. Even if he is one of the 'best ever cricket journalists' that's a narrowly defined field.--
Johnsemlak (
talk)
17:39, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment It cracks me up that the strongest opposition to any ITN nominations about cricket usually come from the most passionate advocates of ITN nominations about American football, which inevitably have considerably less international notability.
DeterenceTalk00:44, 16 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The largest favela of Brazil cleared of drug gangs
Nominator's comments: Seems a notable development. Brazilian favelas are ill-known around the world as bastions of crime, and the event is a major sign that the situation is changing.
GreyHoodTalk11:33, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment - Historically and in contemporary criminological studies, drug sweeps decrease the crime rate in the short term, but in the long term cause a rebound that results in a return to the original crime rate (perhaps even slightly higher). This is why I would be hesitant to post a news story such as this as it most likely would have no lasting effect.
Oppose - No mention of it in the Rochina article. If the police operation itself were noteworthy, perhaps that operation should have an article which could be nominated. --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
16:28, 13 November 2011 (UTC) Good faith anonymous editor. I'm not a troll. Please don't revert my commentsreply
Support. Notable by itself and even more notable considering the context. This is likely to have a significant effect on whether the euro will survive, evident by the stock market reactions today. JimSukwutput03:00, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
He's a Prime Minister, not a President. The resignation of a Prime Minister does not entail that a new election will take place. Under Italy's system of government, the new Prime Minister would usually chosen by the
caucus of the former Prime Minister's political party, and even that is subject to the coalition agreement and that party remaining the dominant political party within a coalition government.
DeterenceTalk08:11, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Agreed that a new govt could be formed, but after his meeting with napolitano yest theres an even chance pf elecions partuicualrly at a time like this when its harder to command a majority govt. lets wit and watch.
Lihaas (
talk)
08:28, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Conditional Support only when he is no longer prime minister anymore. These sorts of situations change very rapidly, and politics is a funny business. If and when he isn't the PM, it should end up on ITN. However, the sort of political negotiations going on which may lead to him resigning if certain conditions are meant is not the sort of thing which normally makes ITN. --
Jayron3207:30, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Wait until he actually resigns. The key point is when he goes, and he's ducked out of promises before. I refrained from nominating this myself for that exactly reason. Waiting also gives time for a proper update to be written.
Modest Geniustalk09:21, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose until such time a successor is appointed: that is usually the convention on ITN. It shouldn't be very long either, most commentators are expecting a new government before the markets open on Monday at the latest.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
23:00, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Hate to take a jump start on that debate, but no I don't think that's the case here. Unlike election results, we usually do not post resignations or appointments, unless generally notable. We already posted the resignation of Berlusconi, but the nomination of his successor would not normally merit a mentioning. --
hydrox (
talk)
21:52, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Article:No article specified Blurb: Seven people are killed in an attack on the city of
Taraz in southern
Kazakhstan. It is one of the worst attacks in the country's history. (
Post) News source(s):BBC
Oppose, for now: What type of attack? Who did the attacking? Blurb needs to be re-written. Even so, seven deaths is peanuts in comparison to what is usually posted on here.
IgnorantArmies03:40, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's comments: Following earlier calls to end the violent crackdown, Arab League seems to be now putting some real pressure on Syria. --
hydrox (
talk)
13:57, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
True. However, Syria can avoid the suspension by stopping the crackdown. Although this is not likely to happen, the blurb then would be incorrect. As of now, the Arab League only threatened to suspend Syria. --
bender235 (
talk)
16:33, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Well, technically correct yes, depending on which is your source.
AJE thinks Syria is only being threatened at this stage, while
CNN formulates it "move takes effect Wednesday". Most sources seem to share CNN's view. --
hydrox (
talk)
16:37, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Jassim al-Thani said Syria will be suspended by 16 November if it does not implement the Arab peace deal that it previously agreed to. That's a fact, not a matter of interpretation. If Assad implements the plan (which is highly unlikely, tho), Syria will not be suspended on Wednesday. So let's wait until Wednesday and see what happens. --
bender235 (
talk)
18:55, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Strong support, as Syria is definitely doing something wrong with international implications. The news is the decision to suspend, so I would prefer immediate posting.
Mamyles (
talk)
15:39, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment - While tempted to support on the face of the importance of the news, is it consensus here that a three sentence update way down in the article (3.2 Reactions -International) is enough? I'd like to see a bit more of an update prior to posting this on the Main Page, and perhaps a brief mention in the lede.
Jusdafax16:58, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
"Rebels act at least as violently as the government" is a bit of an overstatement as far as I know, as the government forces are the ones killing civilians. But you are right – there are some armed factions too among the rebels – so "civilian uprising" is not correct. I've changed the blurb. --
hydrox (
talk)
19:19, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Over 1000 security officers have been killed. This is not in dispute. But the government says rebels are responsible while the protesters say they're in fact killed by the government. Doesn't matter which side you believe, this is clearly not as simple as government shooting civilians. JimSukwutput03:09, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support. International agreement to end crackdown; crackdown continues; Arab League suspension...sounds familiar? This is definitely notable, regardless of what the Syrian government decides to do. JimSukwutput03:06, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Article needs updating The nominated event is listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: APEC meeting this weekend (12-13 Nov). The article needs some serious work, but this is an ITNR item. I hoping that this nomination will encourage editors to improve the article for a story they might otherwise not have been aware of.
Modest Geniustalk12:39, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Would be an interesting item indeed. However, it would be nice to have a separate article on the artwork, as is usually the case when we feature works of art. --Tone13:28, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Done. The article's a stub so obviously needs expansion and if we could keep some eyeballs on it for now as I'd worry someone might nominate it for deletion.--
Johnsemlak (
talk)
16:35, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The article says this occurred on November 8, which is earlier than our oldest item on ITN now. Any reason it shouldn't be dated as November 8? -- tariqabjotu03:01, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
True. The oldest item in the ITN box dates from November 10. Too late then... Still, as the new article is well written, I suggest it is taken to DYK. --Tone09:49, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I don't see the need to be absolutely strict with keeping the ITN template in chronological order. I suggest we give this event at least a little more front page time that it will likely receive by dropping one or two items off of the bottom prior to dropping this one. The sale may have happened on 8 Nov, but it remains the record setting sale still obviously, and more to the point remains of interest to readers.--
Johnsemlak (
talk)
06:01, 15 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose Awards are a reasonable thing to post for the arts or sciences, where there is no other formal top level competition. By definition, each sport has a way of determining its best in direct competition, and that is the result that merits consideration here.
Kevin McE (
talk)
13:45, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Actually, in the case of athletics (except marathons), we don't post the results of any regular competitions, unlike, say football (of any code). We only post the setting of world records.--
Johnsemlak (
talk)
14:31, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
2011 Syrian uprising: 250 Syrians, mostly civilians, have been killed so far this month, as the violence escalates in Syria's eight-month-old crackdown on
pro-democracy protests and attacks on security forces increase.
(CBC)(MSNBC)
The former Prime Minister of
UkraineYulia Tymoshenko, already serving a seven-year sentence for abuse of office, is charged with tax evasion, theft and concealing foreign currency revenues.
(Reuters)
Sidney Nsubuga Enoch is jailed for 35 years in
Uganda for the murder of gay activist
David Kato in January.
(Reuters)
Comment: Not an oppose or anything, but the article as a whole gives a lot of weight to his death. I'm not saying that the section should be reduced or anything, but perhaps additional parts about his life could be expanded as well. SpencerT♦C19:47, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Certainly undue weight, but that's a sign of missing content on his earlier life, not that his death is overplayed. Not really surprising in an article which didn't even exist before he died.
Modest Geniustalk13:36, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Neutral I really like Black Sabbath, but this is not so important. Actually 33 years are pretty long, but as a "band full of old men" I am afraid they won't do the music they did in the prior years.--
♫GoP♫TCN11:53, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Article:Sébastien Loeb (
talk·history·tag) Blurb:
Sébastien Loeb (Citroën) becomes the first driver in any discipline of motorsport to become World Champion for the eighth consecutive time. (
Post) News source(s): BBC, AJC, WSJ etc Credits:
The nominated event is listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Normally the bold link would go on the article for this year's event, but that is just a big data table and the eight-in-a-row is a major part of the story so I've put the bold on Loeb.
Modest Geniustalk23:20, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose for now. There aren't that many casualties, and it seems like most of them occurred over a week ago. I don't even think this should be made into a single article - how are floods in Ireland and Italy three weeks apart related? JimSukwutput22:21, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
American soldier convicted for leading a rogue "kill team" in Afghanistan
Oppose - similar stories have been posted at ITN already, and compared to the other big news stories it does not make headlines outside the US. In any case, could Deterence refrain from abusing ITN as a soapbox? It's not helpful.
Pantherskin (
talk)
09:03, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
bickering
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Support on notability, but currently oppose because the update is too slight - one sentence and bare URL references. The blurb could be phrased in a less emotive style as well. The Baha Mousa case is the nearest comparable case I can think of and there are significant differences to that: at first glance this to be deliberate premeditated murder as opposed to poor training and getting carried away.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
09:43, 11 November 2011 (UTC).reply
We're now up to two sentences for the update. There's been a certain amount of clean up throughout the article but that is all the updated element amounts to. A two sentence update isn't enough to be collectively boasting about on the front page.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
02:36, 12 November 2011 (UTC).reply
This is one of those cases where the event is clearly notable but makes it hard to come up with more than a few sentences of updates. I personally think the article is suitable for posting. Note that we're not just posting the convictions on their own, but the convictions as the culmination of the entire scandal. JimSukwutput03:14, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Not ready: this update is still pitiful. ITN is not a news ticker - it's very reason for existence is to highlight new content. If there isn't a lot we can say about an event that is not reason for for posting without a minimal update: it is a very good indicator we shouldn't be posting in the first instance. While people are still trying to fudge this issue I'm firming up to an oppose.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
15:30, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Strong support. I'll be frank here: If you don't think war-time convictions for soldiers going on a rampage killing random civilians is more notable than two three-year sentences for corporate spying, you got your priorities fucked up. JimSukwutput20:17, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Possible support but something needs clarifying. Is today's news about one in a series of convictions, some of which have happened, more of which will follow? That would tend to make it less significant in itself. --
FormerIP (
talk)
20:27, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment The 'for sport' bit of the suggested post doesn't actually appear in the article and seems rather tabloid (though it does appear in some of the references used in the article).
Nick-D (
talk)
00:31, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Well of course can an inauguration of a person that can send an army half a world a away (
for a minimum of 60 days) is equal in every aspect to an inauguration of a person that can't even send his 10,500-man army without consent of the UN General Assembly, which the first person has veto power. –HTD19:42, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I don't know if it would be better to include the ethnic makeup of the victims or their occupations in the Blurb as the victims are generally members of ethnic minorities as well as two police officers. --
A Certain White Catchi? 11:37, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
Is there something particularly significant about these murders that I'm missing? We can't go posting every serial killer, and the article is very short. Besides, we normally wait for convictions, for obvious
WP:BLP reasons.
Modest Geniustalk14:58, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Plenty of content exists on multiple sources and I would welcome any help in the writing of this article. It isn't an ordinary "serial killing" as it involves neo-nazi ties and the targets are ethnic minorities in Germany according to the prosecutor. I need not explain why this is significance beyond that I hope. :) We could indeed wait for the actual conviction, as event is fairly new after all. --
A Certain White Catchi? 17:14, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
de:Mordserie Bosporus has more info it seems. I would also like to point out BLP isn't a worry since the names of the suspects are unknown to the public. Also the news has been upgraded to bbc main page "New German neo-Nazi probe arrest" at
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ --
A Certain White Catchi? 22:51, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
Strong Support - not just run of the mill serial murderers, but apparently right-wing terrorists targeting ethnic minorities. That, and that several murder cases previously believed to be unrelated are connected. Given that the two main suspects are dead no point in waiting for convictions.
Pantherskin (
talk)
18:31, 13 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Suicides seems to have happened in an unrelated event where a bank robbery heist failed on 4 November a week prior to the woman turning herself in. This just gets better and better --
A Certain White Catchi? 17:31, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
Opposition activists claim that at least 38 people, including six children, have been killed by security forces across
Syria: 16 in the city of
Homs, 10 in
Idlib, six in
Hama, three in the suburbs of
Damascus and three in
Daraa.
(CNN)
Business and economy
Hinchingbrooke Hospital in the English county of
Cambridgeshire becomes the first
NHS hospital to be run by a private firm. Healthcare partnership Circle has been awarded a ten-year contract, and will take over administration of the hospital – which has heavy financial debts – in February 2012.
(BBC)
Support. Article updated. All over the European news networks, and mentioned worldwide. "Rainbow Warrior" part 2, with it being France as well.
Black Kite (t)00:22, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support - Big news when energy officials are sent to jail for spying on activists. Of interest to a broad readership no matter what one's feelings are on the topic.
Jusdafax00:54, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Strong Oppose. I don't care how much publicity this gets, the case is completely trivial by itself. We have in numerous occasions decided not to post incidents where dozens were killed. We let the Nigerian killings a week ago - where hundreds were murdered by terrorists - turn stale. And we posted almost nothing about the financial crises that went through the Eurozone and now imperiling Italy. Yet here we're discussing about two convictions for spying on anti-nuclear activists - and in a country where nuclear energy is not a contentious political issue. I can't help but think some of us are projecting our personal political views into the matter and being overly concerned about what we want Wikipedia readers to see, and not what is objectively notable. JimSukwutput01:48, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
One that involves a child sexual abuse scandal involving at least eight kids over 15 years, and the resignation of the president of a major public university. More important than two corporate spies getting jailed, right? JimSukwutput02:22, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Corporate agents convicted and imprisoned for spying on a lawful protest movement (something that happens once in a blue moon) has significantly more ITN notability than yet another resignation by an administrative bureaucrat and a football coach in a sex scandal (of the type that happens countless times every day).
DeterenceTalk06:00, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Go to any court in any country and you'll see sexual assault cases being heard every day. How many trials have you seen where big business from the nuclear energy industry is accused of spying protesters?
DeterenceTalk07:34, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
They didn't actually spy on protesters. They hired a private intelligence company to monitor some campaign activists. The intelligence company went over the line by hacking into the activists' computers, and the judge thought that the energy corporation should be held responsible for this. I won't comment on whether his decision has merit, but this is clearly nothing as notable as the blurb and news stories seem to indicate. JimSukwutput20:23, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose - misleading to claim that this is all over the news, given that it is a minor story on BBC, and not on the main page of the Guardian at all, etc. And where is the article? Should certainly not appear in the EDF or Greenpeace article per WP:UNDUE and WP:RECENTISM.
Pantherskin (
talk)
07:49, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support Now that we have a precedent with the college football story, this minority interest event which covers an international company, spying, the environmental movement and foreign justice is clearly credible, recent, and relevant for inclusion on the front page.
doktorbwordsdeeds08:38, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The recently whined-upon college football story was not in ITNR, and the WSOP blurb was first tested in ITN/C and should be removed from ITNR once it goes stale and never gets to be posted. –HTD10:30, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Actually, there are plenty of precedents (e.g. we post elections not inaugurations, results of tournaments not their openings, standard ways of phrasing things etc.). But what on Earth does the Penn State have to do with setting any precedent whatsoever? Or any relevance to ITNR?
Modest Geniustalk17:13, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
There's nothing similar to the Penn State event and this. Posting back-handed objections to the Penn State story here as 'support' for this is not helpful for consensus building.--
Johnsemlak (
talk)
17:19, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Are you serious? Supporting other nominations out of spite because you disagreed with a decision made on a previous nomination is considered proper behavior now? Grow up. JimSukwutput20:19, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Done by myself and
User:FormerIP. This could be en interesting one, actually; clearly a more notable story than some random sports coach in America, yet msy be declined; a pretty good poster child for an RFC on
WP:ITN if it goes like that.
Black Kite (t)19:22, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose While I do find this an interesting item, the complete lack of significant news coverage for this makes me wonder how significant it is. There's no mention on the BBC 'Europe' page, nor in the
Russianpress. As I said above the Paterno comparisons are very unhelpful, and for me (not in the US) the Paterno story is still linked on the BBC website and is a top 10 read story, unlike this.--
Johnsemlak (
talk)
01:25, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Not sure why you are looking particularly at the Russian press, but this is a two day old story now so I don't think seeing it not listed as a main story today tells us very much. It was the main story on the BBC's Europe page at the time. --
FormerIP (
talk)
01:32, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Fair enough. But I doubt that the story was not reported in Russia. Just that it is not among the top stories two days after the fact. --
FormerIP (
talk)
01:53, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's comments: Obviously notable. Some serious facepalming will result if anyone opposes this nomination. Credit where it is due, I was given a heads-up by anon IP 94.69.50.81 that this announcement was coming.
DeterenceTalk12:56, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Obvious support, but the article is a bit lacking. It's just academic background, then suddenly he becomes prime minister. If he really was such a massive outsider from the political process, then surely there's something to say about that? If not, there seems to be content missing.
Modest Geniustalk15:14, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The fact that he's an outsider indicates there's less to be said about his political experience. I agree a better transition can be made in the article, but I don't see a significant problem. JimSukwutput17:07, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Hold for now Two sentences and a single reference don't amount to a minimal update. At the very least there's plenty of additional context to the appointment that we can include.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
17:46, 10 November 2011 (UTC).reply
Support - If he is sworn in, this blurb is good to go on the Main Page. Update is thin but should be enough and will be added to in the next hours and days.
Jusdafax17:46, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment While it would be impractical to make an ITN post every time a species becomes extinct, one may chauvinistically suggest that the extinction of a rhino species is more notable than the extinction of less awesome species'. At the very least, this deserves a post in DYK.
DeterenceTalk06:44, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment - I want to support this but the article is barely beyond a stub, and needs considerable expansion. However the importance is undeniable... at the risk of stating the obvious, extinction is forever, and this was a notable and very large mammal.
Jusdafax06:57, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Reluctantly oppose: I would support the extinction of a large vertebrate species, but this is only a subspecies. It is essentially the local extinction of Diceros bicornis from part of its range that has been announced, and that, while sad, is not big enough.
Kevin McE (
talk)
07:19, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support, but only if the blurb says 'extinct in the wild'. It still exists in captivity. (this was based on a misreading of a news report, sorry) Whilst we certainly can't post every extinction, rhinos have long been synonymous with conservation efforts, so I think losing this subspecies is symbolically important.
Modest Geniustalk09:56, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose per Kevin McE. This is one of four subspecies of one of five species of rhinos, and many of the other species are not actually endangered. JimSukwutput17:13, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support Despite its being a subspecies, it's still as said above almost a poster-animal for conservation. It was the most notable part of the recent IUCN update.
Chipmunkdavis (
talk)
18:52, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Black Rhinoceros now has this content, albeit in quite a short section. Not ideal, but this seems to have plenty of support and despite what the timer says we haven't posted a new story for more than 24 hours. Marking ready.
Modest Geniustalk17:19, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
This is not the complete item but Greece is about to have a new Prime Minister after the resignation of the current Prime Minister. Be ready in the next minutes for the official announcement. Journalists in Greece are already sure. --
94.69.50.81 (
talk)
11:27, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
A survey of businesses and consumers in
Wales indicates widespread support among both groups for the country to have its own
top-level domain name.
(BBC)
Floods are predicted to enter the centre of
Bangkok early next week, and have already affected nearby roads and sewage systems, according to the Thai Flood Relief Operations Command (FROC).
(The National)(Bangkok Post)
The first ever national test of the
Emergency Alert System occurred on this date, at 2:00 p.m. EST. This test was transmitted with the
Emergency Action Notification code, and was testing the ability to transmit a national-level emergency alert, such as a nuclear attack. This test failed, with 2 other Primary Entry Point (PEP) radio stations relaying the alert over the original alert itself, creating an echo effect. One of the overlaying PEP stations were
WCCO (AM), and the other one cannot be determined. However, the issues in this alert have (mostly) been fixed.
Dutch scientists build a
nanoscopicelectric car made of a single complex
molecule. Currently the world's smallest vehicle, the nanocar is capable of travelling small distances when an electric current is applied to it.
(BBC)(AdelaideNow)
The story is already halfway down the template and this conversation's productivity is starting to wane, and our efforts could be better spent on other nominations on this page. If it really must be discussed further, take it to
WT:ITN.
Ks0stm(
T•
C•
G•
E)20:53, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nominator's comments: Obviously becoming one of the biggest scandals in the history of college sports, if not sports in general. Affects one of the most legendary and beloved coaches in the history of the game. Should be mentioned in passing, even if we have to wait until Parteno officially reigns.
Secretaccount19:46, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Can I just prevent the inevitable removal of the ready tag by Lihaas by kindly asking him let another user judge if it really not is ready? –HTD05:55, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment: I won't go so far as to say the articles aren't updated, but I would say they could use with a bit more substantial updating...perhaps a couple lines in Paterno's article about outside reactions to his announcing of his retirement.
Ks0stm(
T•
C•
G•
E)21:21, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Neutral Please avoid the word "winningest" in the blurb if possible. It may be established among US sports writers, but it looks very odd to the rest of us. /
Coffeeshivers (
talk) 4:24 pm, Today (UTC−5)
Oppose Even though there were pre-emptive strikes against what I'm about to write over in
Wikipedia talk:In the news, one really must still ask what impact will this have outside an amateur sport of interest only inside the USA? Maybe a sound answer to this question could even sway my vote, but hyped up garbage like "...if not sports in general" from a nominator never will. That just demonstrates a complete absence of global perspective.
HiLo48 (
talk)
21:59, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I agree with some of that sentiment. I couldn't care less about this story since I've heard precisely nothing about it, but I was tempted to oppose simply because of those WT:ITN comments. Attempting to portray opposers as unreasonable even in advance of a nomination is extremely bad form. The fact it was felt necessary suggest weaknesses in the case for posting, not that it is somehow exceptionally meritorious.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
01:58, 10 November 2011 (UTC).reply
I don't think Jayron and HTD meant to offend anyone or question anyone's motives. I think they were just feeling trepidation that we were about to have the "American sports argument" for the 500th time. --
Mwalcoff (
talk)
02:17, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment It is very difficult for an outsider to judge the notability of a scandal involving a leading figure in a sport that only really exists in one country. But, this does look like a simple criminal/ethics issue of the sort that occurs countless times every day. Such items are not worthy of ITN, no matter what sport/industry they tarnish (with the obvious exception of leading public officials). Oh, for the love of God, do not use the word "winningest" if you wish to be taken seriously. I won't oppose this item candidate for ITN, if for no other reason than it illustrates what a douche-bag this "legend" really is for standing back and letting a co-worker continue to sexually assault children.
DeterenceTalk22:21, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Well the New York Times and National Public Radio are comparing it to the Catholic church scandal
[36],
[37] the Associated Press is saying that no college scandal can compare to this
[38], and so forth.
98.64.181.93 (
talk)
23:21, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Paterno being the highest paid state employee wouldn't be news, since the same situation exists in many states across the U.S. Though their salaries, like Paterno's, aren't paid by taxes or public money.
Boznia00:59, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
No...it's fairly straightforward. Athletic department revenues from ticket sales, TV contracts, etc, and donations from private citizens to the athletic department pay their salaries.
Boznia05:33, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support Let's face it...he's a legend in the sport. No coaches in the sport have ever had more success than him. I would support his retirement even if it wasn't with these extra newsworthy circumstances.
Ks0stm(
T•
C•
G•
E)23:11, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Neutral If this ends up on the main page, please take the word "winningest" out, to people outside the US it sounds like a "word" a five-year-old would make up because they don't know any different, and there are far better ways of phrasing it.
Black Kite (t)23:50, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support. This is huge. It was the lead story on all three network news broadcasts today. It's the top story in the New York Times and there are 13,388 Google News hits. Joe Paterno is possibly the best-known living sports coach in America and the most famous person in Pennsylvania. ("The King of Pennsylvania" according to an NYT headline.) He's been in charge of one of America's biggest football programs since 1966. Jayron suggested on the talk page it would be like
Alex Ferguson resigning due to a sex scandal in the UK. This story is far from over -- the whole university administration may go down. But there's a lot of reader interest in this now, the story is getting a ton of media play and there won't be a better single point at which to put it on ITN. There were
85,000 hits for
Joe Paterno yesterday. Waiting until January when far fewer people are looking for information on this would be kind of dumb. By the way, by "winningest" they mean he's won more games than any other coach in major college football.
I sort of guessed what the word means, but it's not used anywhere outside of US sports journalism and it looks lazy and unprofessional - if you need to say that someone has won more games than anyone else, then say it. This is the Main Page of a top ten website, not a sports blog. Also "agrees to step down in the end of the 2011 Penn State football" isn't even grammatically correct either.
Black Kite (t)00:01, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Bleh, I thought winningest was a very common term in the English language, until I saw the spell checker on Firefox, it's used all over sports journalism that's why I got so used to the word. I was typing the blurb on Internet Explorer at my work place as well, so I didn't double check. I agree that Mwalcoff blurb is better.
Secretaccount00:19, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
...and maybe that highlights the whole problem with this nomination. It reads like tabloid sports journalism. I cannot imagine the resignation of a coach in my country's biggest football code being nominated here, no matter what the reason. Yes, it would be big news here, even on the front page of the tabloid papers, but I would not expect any American editor to support it.
HiLo48 (
talk)
00:29, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Umm... This is on the front page of the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal. It's in The Christian Science Monitor. It's on Bloomberg. It led all three network news shows, as mentioned above. These are all very "serious" media, not tabloids (or sports media). This is not your typical sports story, any more than the Catholic Church abuse scandals were your typical religion story. --
Mwalcoff (
talk)
00:48, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I dunno; as someone said above, if this story is equivalent, say, to
Alex Ferguson being implicated in something similar, then fine ... having said that, that story would be front page news not only in the UK but most of the way round the world, as opposed to only in the US.
Black Kite (t)00:46, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Well, not in the US... But anyway, I think what Jayron meant was this is as big in the US as Ferguson resigning due to a scandal involving raping children would be in the UK. There's no question that Ferguson is a bigger figure globally than Paterno is, but we're still way past the threshold in terms of enough reader interest for the Paterno/Sandusky item to fly. Yes, half our readers don't care, but I'm sure 90% of them don't care about the NYC marathon or Russian unmanned space mission. --
Mwalcoff (
talk)
00:51, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Nothing in any country, IMO, should be included in ITN if it is not cared about - in the broadest sense; I'm not necessarily saying it has to be major news - in any other country. --
FormerIP (
talk)
01:46, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Well, I disagree about that... If we can post an item that is of interest to 5% of Wikipedia readers spread across the world, I think we can post something that is of interest to 25% of the readers even if they're all in one country. But anyway, Canada is a separate country. And one of the rationales for ITN is to point out to readers articles they might not have been looking for but are quality content that may turn out to interest them. I think this story fits that bill for Europeans. --
Mwalcoff (
talk)
01:52, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
You will not find this story anywhere in any print editions of serious UK or European newspapers. It's a story that has not left the US, other than here. So, your statement is pretty accurate.
doktorbwordsdeeds01:15, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I'm sure many of our readers would be offended at the notion that nothing in America is important unless Europeans care about it. Would you say nothing in Europe is notable unless Americans care about it? We can say goodbye to the annual Eurovision entry then. --
Mwalcoff (
talk)
01:19, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Changing the blurb to reflect the latest news. Press conference shown live on CNN. Currently the lead story on websites of CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, ABC, CBS, Wall Street Journal, USA Today... --
Mwalcoff (
talk)
03:32, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support - Paterno is an icon of college football, and either his dismissal or the scandal would be notable enough individually to justify inclusion. Add them together, and it's almost a no-brainer. --
Bongwarrior (
talk)
03:51, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support The football angle isn't all that vital here; this is the 10th largest university in the U.S., one of the
Public Ivies and the coverup to this scanadal has led to the firing and resignation of the University President, Athletic Director, several other prominent officials, and, incidentally, JoPa. The Beeb thinks it important enough, given
this story is running on their
main page right now. Worldwide interest is demonstrated, article is decent, I say run with this. --
Jayron3204:10, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
How many times do I have to point this out? The BBC tailors its front page based on IP geolocation. Just because it's on the front page in your country does not mean it is anywhere else in the world. It's not even at the top of the US/Canada section as seen from the UK.
Modest Geniustalk10:09, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
This skips the sports angle altogether; this is so much bigger than sports that I don't think that should be emphasized here at all. This is about a major sex abuse scandal that has brought down the entire administration of a major university. --
Jayron3204:31, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support I believe that the firing of the most successful coach in NCAA history - who served as head coach for 46 years at one of the ten largest universities in the United States - is notable enough for itn. If there was a football equivilent I do not believe there would be so much protests. The fact that he does not coach professional football is irrelevant, in my opinion, as he argurably was more well known than most NFL coaches. As for the international criteria, this has made headlines all across Canada (both the abuse scandal and his resignation/firing). --
PlasmaTwa204:27, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose This is essentially a US domestic story, not of wider interest, so the bar has to be higher as a consequence, and we're not even talking about professional sport here. Would this even be considered if it was the Oxford or Cambridge rowing teams? I strongly doubt it and college sport doesn't get any higher profile than that. The current headline is a mess and too broad a target to consider too. Where is the main bold article? We have no idea. How then can we consider it? At the very least the headline needs trimming for length and the number of links trimming. The very last thing that should be done is wedge yet something else in as suggested above. If you have to link too many terms that implies a lack of familiarity with the story is expected from the users, in which case that surely weakens the very case for inclusion.
Flying Llamas (
talk)
04:24, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
If this counts, it's a trending topic on Twitter in the U.S., Canada and Mexico. That's like 84% of the population of North America. College sports does have a higher profile in the U.S. (and a few other countries) than in the UK; for example, college football games have higher TV viewership than the
Stanley Cup Finals. The article on
Joe Paterno had
85.4k views yesterday. –HTD04:36, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment Why are people quoting hit-counts as if they have any relevance? I guarantee that the Britney Spears or Kim Kardashian hit-counts would dwarf them all - does that mean we'll be posting Kim Kardashian's divorce on ITN?
DeterenceTalk04:59, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support. I think it's surprising that this story received so much frontpage attention in the U.S. I think we have way too many sports-related items on ITN. I think it's ridiculous that the highest paid state-employee in Pennsylvania is a football coach. But none of that has anything to do with this item's notability, which IMO is fairly well-established. JimSukwutput05:11, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Bravo for putting the picture of the University President with the story and for the blurb placing the president first. A university president resigning at a major research institution over a child molestation scandal is an ITN-worthy story.
OCNative (
talk)
07:06, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that it was Joe Paterno's extraordinary prestige within America's football industry that made this story notable for the yanks. Who cares about some administrative bureaucrat?
DeterenceTalk07:17, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment This saddens me. It would have looked a lot healthier if this had been posted by someone who was not an American, especially an American directly associated with another tertiary institution. Hard to believe it was an objective judgement given the number of clear opposes above.
HiLo48 (
talk)
07:35, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Yeah, and I'm also male. I also like watching football. I've also been to Pennsylvania, and to Penn State. Twice. I also watch Law and Order: SVU, which deals with sexual abuse. (They even had an episode with a similar plot earlier this season!) Yup, you got me. Never mind that I twice explicitly, including in my posting statement, expressed disdain for this nomination; this was an inside job. -- tariqabjotu07:53, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
So, you posted simply on the basis of popular vote? I didn't think we voted here. Surely these decisions are supposed to be based on quality of argument? Where was that in this case?
HiLo48 (
talk)
08:02, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I don't think that it being posted by an American, who I never seen edit any American sports articles, and who goes to a college that doesn't even have college football and has nothing to do with Penn State mattered. Plus consensus was forming that it was more than an typical American sports headline, with the administration of the university, which is one of the biggest in the U.S. put into question. If the same thing happened in Harvard or Cambridge, or any other "Major" world university that their administration is covering up a similar scandal that was formed by a notable faculty member, and controversy and major media coverage happens, it would have made ITN without any objections. But because it is related to an American sport, there's the typical objections.
Secretaccount08:03, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
To be fair, I haven't updated my userpage in ages -- I go to Stanford now -- and they most certainly have college football (as I'm sure you know). Also, Penn State is no Harvard or Cambridge. -- tariqabjotu08:07, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Secret - show us how many non-Americans are part of this alleged forming consensus. (And surely we should wait until it has actually "formed".) I certainly wasn't part of it.
HiLo48 (
talk)
08:11, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Post-posting oppose. The coach of an amateur university team gets fired? So what? This isn't even the top level of the sport. The discussion about the relative academic merits of the university above doesn't seem relevant to me.
Modest Geniustalk10:02, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oh and I don't think that 'this is only of interest in the US' is a good reason to oppose, which is an argument which has been used several times in the above discussion.
Modest Geniustalk10:12, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
It's not just "only of interest in the US" that's the issue. The fans, mostly (if not all) American, don't seem all that good explaining to us non-Americans why it's important at all. I posted earlier that I wouldn't expect a similar event in even the biggest sport in my country to be posted, so why this one?
HiLo48 (
talk)
10:20, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
As has been noted above, the BBC alters its main page depending on the location of your IP. I certainly don't see it on the BBC homepage.
Jenks24 (
talk)
10:45, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I'm in New Zealand. I don't know how these things work, but this story is merely a text link in a list of "other stories" when I go to BBC. But, I'm not sure how relevant even this much attention is worth, given that such a scandalous story was always going to attract significant media attention simply because of its ready-made sensationalism for moronic Joe Public to feed on.
DeterenceTalk11:14, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Apparently we see the same version, so it can be argued that this is newsworthy. I was going to say we'd follow the ITN criteria, only to find out the criteria is pretty much nonexistent. I fail to see why a scandalous story is automatically excluded from ITN -- after all, this is the BBC, the stuff people listen on the radio for fear of punishment on some parts of the world, and not News of the World. If the BBC finds this as worthy to be linked in their homepage, above the fold, along with the situation in Greece, it's probably no laughing matter. –HTD11:27, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Except that, none of the stories current on the BBC homepage qualify for ITN (with the possible exception being the story about the stalled economic growth of the Eurozone, and I've long since given-up hoping that stories about the Eurozone debt crisis will get enough support to be posted).
DeterenceTalk11:47, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
On the Eurozone, a blurb about it was posted last week, because maybe the FA was too long and they needed extra ITN blurbs that's why it was included. –HTD15:02, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Dumbass move Whoever posted the photo to the front page with this
WP:BLP violating hook should realise that they posted an image, with BLP violating vandalism photos still visible. Is anyone bothering to check such things before the absolute crap that was on the image page is posted to the front page? The violating images have now been deleted -- surprisingly they last for THREE years before being reported by myself. It was a completely stupid move to post that image to the front page as it was. Be more careful in future.
RussaviaLet's dialogue10:56, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Post-posting oppose. This scandal seems to be of no significant interest outside of the U.S, Canada and Britain. This differs from the scandal with Rod Blagojevich and other such regional stories which enjoyed more global interest and were posted on ITN. Irrespective of media coverage, the significance of the event per se is unclear. Does it have a chance to really change anything in the world, at least in the U.S?
GreyHoodTalk17:23, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Another post-posting oppose. It's of absolutely no interest to people in Britain either, for what it's worth. There is no global interest in this story.
87.114.206.187 (
talk)
17:48, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Time to pull this? (my personal opinion is that this should not be on ITN as it contains BLP issues and coach is not the same as a politician on executive position.) --Tone18:18, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
And I still cannot see how a scandal in the, what, fourth biggest sport in one country(?) should have even been considered for mention here. This really is making Wikipedia look like appallingly US biased rubbish.
HiLo48 (
talk)
18:17, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The Anti-US bias is really annoying from many. Someone above mentioned Oxford rowing, and you know what, if they did have a scandal of this magnitude I guarantee there would be a bunch of support on here for that.
WizardmanOperation Big Bear18:21, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Calling people ignorant will not make them less so. Ignorance can be cured. Please try to do it. Much of my criticism here has been of the way a lot of Americans editors here won't actually present arguments but seem to think the rest of the world should just know why this is important. Well, some of us cannot see it. But I am always happy to be educated. DO please try, rather than just abusing. So, start with the perspective of an Australian who wouldn't expect a scandal in his country's BIGGEST sport to appear here. Why should this one about the US's fourth(?) biggest appear?
HiLo48 (
talk)
19:12, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
It's been noted above several times that this is getting substantial press in Canada, which makes it "international" (which isn't a criteria anyway, but that's another issue). Also, Jayron pointed out above and Johnsemlak below that this also involves the resignation of the president of one of the biggest and highest ranked universities in the world, which goes to my point that this isn't just about a major figure in the fourth biggest US sport resigning.
Hot Stoptalk-
contribs19:25, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I wonder if you realise that you completed that post with yet another statement of what this is not? I wish you could explain what it IS. Why DID the president resign? Was HE the paedophile? And there have been several posts arguing the status of this university. How about presenting an actual factual case?— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
HiLo48 (
talk •
contribs)
You must be kidding me. Penn State has nearly a hundred thousand students (45000 in one campus) and is considered one of the top public undergraduate institutions in the country, and also hosts numerous top-ranked graduate departments. I see where some of the oppose comments are coming from, but to say that PSU is not a "major university" is nonsense, and to imply that only an American would see this way is downright ridiculous. JimSukwutput02:04, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Jim, it's highly likely "that only an American would see this way". The rest of the world simply doesn't mix major sport and universities the way the USA does. Only an American, or someone who has gone to a lot of trouble to understand this unique American approach, could be expected to understand.
HiLo48 (
talk)
02:13, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I'm not American and I don't give a damn about college sports. I was responding to the IP's comment implying that only an American would think PSU is a major university. If you want to familiarize yourself with the case as you seem to indicate above, the bolded article is a good starting point, and
college football is an excellent article.JimSukwutput02:37, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Jim, it'd probably do you well to outright ignore HiLo's comments. There are legitimate remarks here and even legitimate remarks that suggest this item is too U.S.-oriented, but HiLo's persistent anti-American trolling at every opportunity has basically
devalued his remarks, even if actually relevant, to zero. And, I, for one, categorically ignore his remarks, especially when the United States is involved, when making decisions about ITN items. No doubt, HiLo will silently walk away from this sub-thread, rather than acknowledge the embarrassment of suggesting that only Americans would hold a view that an apparently Indonesian (or Indonesia-based) editor holds. He thrives off his
confirmation bias. -- tariqabjotu03:56, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Neutral. I sort of see Greyhood's point above but this is certainly a big story. It's the 10th largest university in the US having its president has been sacked and a major sports icon sacked. The issue itself (
child abuse is volatile and will certainly be of interest to people with no interest in the sport. Finally, global interest is not and ITN prerequisite.--
Johnsemlak (
talk)
18:41, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
UpdateBBC reports that "Penn State students have gone on the rampage after Joe Paterno ... was sacked amid a child abuse scandal. ... After the firings, thousands of students gathered outside a university administration building, chanting "Hell no, Joe won't go" and "We want Joe back"." (with VIDEO) Just to be clear, there are thousands of students protesting/rioting in SUPPORT of the man who stood back and did almost nothing to stop the rape of children by a co-worker. Pennsylvania just entered my s***-list.
DeterenceTalk20:30, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
But what about your shitlist? And let me speak in defense of Pennsylvania: Penn State is in Pennsyltucky. The two separate areas that make up Pennsylvania are still vaguely sane. --
Golbez (
talk)
20:35, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment I didn't see any consensus reading above, and I was surprised to find this on the front page. A college sports coach was fired for covering up child abuse. No matter how great his reputation is, it's not really altogether unique news. It happened and is localised to just one higher education institution, unlike say the apparently comparable Vatican scandal where abuses popped up in multiple countries and coverups were seen by some to reach the Vatican.
Chipmunkdavis (
talk)
23:00, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
LOL 7000 rioters close a port in Oakland, CA: not notable. Global "Indigent/Occupy" protests: insignificant. A guy who might have known something about some child abuse allegations by an amateur sports coach: "OMG SUPPORT SUPPORT SUPPORT". How absurd. --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
23:22, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
If you think there are more notable events going on right now, help nominate them instead of complaining. (I'm serious - we do need more nominations). JimSukwutput02:40, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Post-posting support. Sheesh. All this complaining is sort of crazy. The story is almost certainly more followed than any of the other stories up there now. Joe Paterno was enormously famous and was one of the longest-serving head coaches ever in any major sport (45 years), particularly for a single team.
Graham Spanier, the fired university president, had a 16-year tenure, which is exceptionally long for a contemporary university president. There's no lack of international reporting on it: The Guardian saw fit to report
10-12 articles on it. In addition to the massive U.S. coverage, the BBC reported on it, as mentioned above (
Article 1,
Article 2). Here are
seven articles on the Toronto Star, Canada's widest-circulating newspaper. (Some wire services in Canada, but mostly original reporting in Britain). Now, I'm not saying this should remain up for a week or even three days, but certainly this deserves some Main Page play.
Neutralitytalk02:29, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Post-posting support. Major news story comparable to the Catholic church sex abuse cases that have been posted. Additionally, the US Department of Education is getting involved and taking action
[40]. Coverage in
Australia,
France,
India, and
Ghana among other places. SpencerT♦C02:42, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Post-posting oppose: I'm American and I think it's absurd something so parochial has been posted. Same level as the Catholic Church scandals? Something that was global and lasted for decades among dozens if not hundreds of people? Give me a break! Epic fail for Wikipedia.
Cjs2111 (
talk)
04:40, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Post-posting Oppose: Sorry, but not a major thing outside the US. Websites from several countries can be listed, but that does not mean it has received prominent coverage there as a notable event. For example, an Indian website is quoted above, but this is practically a "Meanwhile, in the USA.." story here in India. This was not mentioned as a headline in a news bulletin or in a prominent place in any of the Indian news websites.
Chocolate Horlicks (
talk)
04:49, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
"Not a major thing outside the US" is not in and of itself a valid criterion for an Oppose. The cancellation of a Sumo basho was not a major thing outside of Japan--it was still posted to ITN. I'm not posting this as a Support but I am seeing a lot of intellectually dishonest Oppose arguments. This is not just a report about a "football coach being fired"--the University President was also ousted and the Athletic Director and another administrator are under indictment for perjury. Also the idea that Penn State is "not a major university" is absurd on its surface. As for the Oxford or Cambridge rowing teams...if such a scandal resulted in the resignation or firing of an Oxford or Cambridge University President, then you can absolutely be sure that it would be proposed for ITN.
184.57.25.123 (
talk)
04:58, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Being "mentioned as a headline in a news bulletin or in a prominent place in any of the Indian news websites." was, is, and will never be a part of the ITN criteria. –HTD05:58, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Completely agree. I was merely making a point that just because there is a news report from a country, that does not imply it has received prominent coverage in that country. And to respond to 184.57.25.123, "notability" is a criteria and if it is not generally notable outside a particular country, it gives a reasonable (may be not conclusive) estimation of its notability. If the allegation of intellectual dishonesty is directed at me (given that the quote was from my comment), I resent that - If my arguments are shown to be crap - I'll accept that they are crap, but not that they were intellectually dishonest. Because when I'm making them right now, I completely stand by them. As of now, I firmly believe that this is not notable to an international audience. Which is why I am opposing it.
Chocolate Horlicks (
talk)
07:45, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The point was it received coverage in that country; no one is suggesting it was covered prominently there. Is the Liberian presidential election I suggested has an international audience? I'd even argue this one fits ITN's one of purposes: "To point readers to subjects they might not have been looking for but nonetheless may interest them"; you might say "ZOMG! A college coach failed to report to the police sexual abuse by one his staff to one of his students, was fired, and the university president was fired too?!" Sounds tabloidy but real news agencies covered it. We just
follow their lead, otherwise
we're making up what stories should be newsworthy and
we shouldn't do that because that's not our business. –HTD08:15, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
[Posted] Penn State scandal (section break)
By the way It'd be great if the people complaining about this nomination were to work on an article that could unseat this one's position from the top of ITN. Without it, we would have gone 57 hours without a new item right now. -- tariqabjotu06:45, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Please pull this. There's hardly a consensus to post. It's not even the paedophilia case being posted, it's the sacking of some university coaches! How is that news?! Nightw10:03, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Commment Yes, but the existing shares of support/opposes indicate the lack of a proper consensus, especially given the contentious nature of the subject.
GreyHoodTalk10:24, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
It was 10-5 in favor at the time of posting. After the fact opposes are generally ignored because its more likely someone will come to this page and say "Why is that story about X on here" than "Good job, please keep that story up"
Hot Stoptalk-
contribs16:00, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I just came here to read the background of how this story got to the front-page of wikipedia. Best discussion I've seen in a while here! This story isn't notable outside the USA.
Fig (
talk)
13:52, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
As our criteria clearly state, not notable outside the US is not grounds for exclusion. The majority of arguments for oppose seem to focus on that point. And, it's a dubious argument at best. Almost nobody has actually bothered to cite evidence that it's not notable outside the US. Mwalcoff and a few others posted very convincing evidence that the story is at least getting coverage in many places outside the US. It really seems to me that many people living outside the US are reading 'I haven't seen coverage of this myself' as not notable outside the US. I'll switch to support myself. If it were just a college football story I might not feel that way but this is much bigger than that clearly. We can debate how significant Pennsylvania State University is but it is a very large university at 45,000 on a single campus (are there stats on how that would rank worldwide, as a single campus?). It's president (not some lower 'administrative bureaucrat') and an iconic and record-setting coach have both been fired and a deep and long-running pattern of
child abuse has been revealed. A
google search shows many hits to news stories covering this both in the US and abroad. The first hit on my search was
this article in the Sydney Morning Herald. The child abuse angle here clearly makes this highly notable, and will likely go down in history as one of the major such scandals over the last few decades.--
Johnsemlak (
talk)
15:24, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
There's only one coach (the other is the head of the university). And to Johnsemlak its about
49th in the world, but there are a lot of "open enrollment" schools above it on the list.
Hot Stoptalk-
contribs15:53, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Post-posting oppose: If the president and head association football coach of
Beijing Normal University or the
University of Durham were fired, would we even consider putting it up on ITN? We can debate whether or not the fact that Paterno was the highest-paid state employee, or that the whole aspect of many state universities in that country seems to be a feeder for professional sports, but the fact it that it isn't important in any quantifiable way. The head coach and president of the 10th largest university (and innumerably lower ranked) in a country that represents 3% of the world's population were fired. So what? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Simfan34 (
talk •
contribs)
15:55, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
To anyone whose opposed based on the hypothetical "this wouldn't get posted at X non-American college" I ask you to show me a similar scandal that merited this much attention and wasn't posted.
Hot Stoptalk-
contribs16:17, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Imagine if all the energy spent whining here could instead be spent updating articles, commenting on other nominations, etc. I can see why this is a controversial post, but seriously guys, get over it. JimSukwutput20:28, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Second article updated, first needs updating One or both nominated events are listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: The WSOP Main Event champion is the most prestigious poker tournament in the world. Almost 7000 people entered this years event from over 70 countries to compete in the event. This years final table had representatives from 7 different countries and the prize is the largest prize in any invidiual competition. Due to the popularity of the WSOP, ESPN has increased coverage of tournament and had near live broadcasts of the hands (15 minute delay) for much of the tournament. -----BalloonmanPoppa Balloon15:31, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Think it's mind-boggling that we consider this significant enough to be ITNR. But ITNR it is. The Pius Heinz article is really only a stub, though, and needs significant expansion before we can post. --
FormerIP (
talk)
15:44, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Two things: RE Pius, I've asked
WP:POKER to expand the article as I can't do it right now.
As for it being significant enough why? We have the US Chicken Wing Eating Competition and every single Rugby title ITN. This is THE tournament in Poker. It is not a "glorified game" any more than soccer/tennis/golf/rugby/etc. Poker is huge (although a little hurt after
Black Friday). Over the past few years there have been over 28
[41] different TV series in the US alone about poker. Online Poker Revenue was around 7 Billion dollars in 2010 and an estimated 55 million people play poker.
At the 2011 WSOP there were players from over 90 countries (70+ in the ME) and over 68,000 entrants into the various tournaments and a prize pool close to 200 Million dollars.
The competition is so popular that ESPN doubled its coverage this year (after increasing it each of the last 3 or 4 years!) According to espn, the 2011 viewership experienced double digit growth over 2010
[42].
[43] 80 Million people watch the WSOP on espn annually
[44] While official numbers are not in, it was estimated that between 10-30 million people globally would tune into online the Final Table coverage.
[45] If this were nothing more than a "glorified game" then ESPN would not have won an Emmy for its 2009 coverage of the WSOP ME Final Table or be nominated again in 2010.---BalloonmanPoppa Balloon16:46, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Coverage of this is in: CNN, Sky News, USA Today, MSNBC, CBS, ESPN, Bloomberg, Washington Post, Las Vegas Sun, Tulsa World, All Headline News, Seattle Times, International Business Times, NBC, Marketwatch, Houston Chronicle, Fox Sports, Las Vegas Review Journal, Bleecher Report, Peoria Journal Star, SignOnSandiego, Albany Times Union, TheNewsTribune, Turkish Press, ABC News, Deseret News, Reno Gazette Journal, AP, Greenfield Daily Reporter, Greenwich Time, BBC News, San Fran Chronicle, San Antonio express, The Chronicle, eTaiwan News, Huffington Post, etc. This is just a partial list of reliable sources that cover this "glorified game."---BalloonmanPoppa Balloon17:53, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The article is somehow confusing, lots of tables and different events, but it does not state clearly what was going on this time. Also, the winner's article is really short. I may support better articles, but not at this point... --Tone18:08, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
What is the guidance on length for an article? I'll work on them this evening when I get home from work. (I suspect more news sources to carry the event tomorrow as well, because the event concluded at 3:30 am today, thus too late for East Coast and European countries.)---BalloonmanPoppa Balloon18:12, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Well, for non-standard ITN nominations, such as in this case, an excellent an informative article can sometimes tip the scale ;-) --Tone18:18, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose - Based on the precedence established in prior ITN candicacies regarding sports, this event would no longer be considered suitable for
WP:ITNR. Further, there are no prior instances of the WSOP being posted on
WP:ITN. The event is also severely lacking in international coverage.--
WaltCip (
talk)
18:38, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment While this is ITNR, this has never been nominated before either before or after it was added on the list. While it's not on the ITNR "rules," any new addition to the list that has never been nominated before ITN/C should be scrutinized first here before it gets to be permanently listed. Otherwise, it should be struck off the list. Anyhow, it had pretty low
view stats: the
Gaelic football final, described as "
top level of championship in multi-national sport", and even
darts had more views. –HTD18:46, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The WSOP ME is a little different from Darts. Most of the tournament is done in June-July. Only the final table returns in November. In theory this is supposed to build up suspense and minimize the lag between the game play and the results---it used to be that ESPN's coverage was 4 months behind so by the time ESPN broadcasted the winner everybody knew who it was. By moving the final table to November, they hoped to accomodate ESPN to make it more prestigious. So they delayed the final table so that people wouldn't hear who won the event. This year, for the first time, ESPN had near "live" coverage available online (15 minute delay). Talk before the tourney was that online viewership might exceed 10 million in the US and another 10-20 million globably... but I can't find any numbers right yet. As for some hit numbers, let's make sure we are talking apples to apples: for 2011 WSOP July 36K, June 20K... PLUS
2011 World Series of Poker results 21K July and 20K in June... PLUS WSOP in June 201K and July 201K. If you look at the staying power of the WSOP articles, you will see that they keep their numbers up (the dart articles drop down rapidly showing a lack of sustainability.)
As for international flavor... 90 countries were represented at this tournament---about 1/3 of the Main Event were non-Americans. International coverage is on the rise, with the WSOP issuing more international press credentials than ever before. The final table (9 players) had 7 different countries represented. 4 of the 5 past WSOP champs have been non-Americans.
Coverage exists outside the US, here are just a few of the searches that I did on "2011 WSOP", I could have possibly found more using other terms:
French
[49] 7,910,000 <--this number is probably artificially inflated as France hosted the World Series of Poker Europe this year, so a fair number of those hits are probably about the WSOPE.
I don't think people here can support posting a sporting event that was not carried live on its home country, in basic cable. –HTD03:41, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
That eliminates most boxing and MMA events... America's cup and other events... but Poker isn't covered on a delayed basis because it isn't notable, but rather because a poker tournament takes days to play. The Heads up portion of this event lasted almost 6 hours. TV coverage is thus edited to capture the highlights.---BalloonmanPoppa Balloon06:14, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Well of course
Boxing After Dark fights won't pass ITN standards (whatever they may be) but fights such as
Manny Pacquiao vs. Ricky Hatton (what could've been the first boxing bout posted on ITN, as I needed a Brit to last 2 rounds vs Pacquiao as Pacquiao-De La Hoya was laughingly opposed to death lol) which was aired live on PPV was posted. The America's Cup might've been aired live in NZL (not sure on that), and cricket matches take days to finish, and they're aired live. –HTD10:51, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support it's ITNR and gets coverage as shown above. But neither article is updated. The article on the event lacks a prose update, and the other is too short.
Hot Stoptalk-
contribs21:11, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose Commercial TV pap. Obviously not a sport, so such comparisons are meaningless. Is Monopoly next? Should not be here or in ITN/R.
HiLo48 (
talk)
22:01, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
It's doesn't matter what it is except an ITN/R item. If it shouldn't be on ITN, it needs to be removed from ITN/R first. The whole point of ITN/R is to avoid having these silly debates every time a recurring item like this comes up. Start a discussion there rather than here to see what happens. --
Jayron3206:35, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Conditional support I have no notability concerns, but article is in dire need of major updating: playing history and personal history. --
hydrox (
talk)
22:21, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Not Ready Poker tournaments are a hell of a lot more gripping than the vast majority of meat-head sports, but, our support for this item is irrelevant. It's ITN/R and the only thing that matters is the quality of the article's updates. They need some updating and they're a bit confusing for readers who are unfamiliar with the terms and organisation of poker tournaments.
DeterenceTalk22:29, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Conditional support While I am a huge fan of poker and would love to see the WSOP on ITN, I do think the relevant pages could be improved. CanuckMy page89 (talk),
22:48, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose. The last big WSOP tournament got a 0.5 rating for the final on ESPN, compared with around 12 for a Monday Night Football game. Sorry, but this is not a major spectator sports event. --
Mwalcoff (
talk)
00:02, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Is viewership the criteria??? If so, then many of the Rugby events which are ITN would be eliminated, as would table tennis, pool, chess, etc. Viewership is not the primary indicator of notability or importance. Also, ITN serves two purposes 1) it raises issues that are everywhere in the news and 2) it raises issues that are of importance to various communities that might be overlooked by some. With the popularity of Poker around the world, this is one of those trivia items that people have curiosity interest that they might otherwise miss.---BalloonmanPoppa Balloon03:17, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Mwalcoff, your support or opposition is completely irrelevant. The only criteria that matters is whether the updates of the article meet the standard of ITN/R.
DeterenceTalk03:47, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I disagree with that conclusion. Articles are always posted based on consensus. While ITN/R articles can be posted faster, if issues are brought up with its inclusion the posting can be stalled or even removed from ITN/R.
Mamyles (
talk)
23:05, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Of course the posting of ITN/R items can be delayed, especially if the updates of those articles are insufficient (it happens all the time - just look at this year's Nobel Prizes fiasco). But, issues of notability (or lack thereof) cannot be used in ITN/C to block the posting of ITN/R. As for removing topics from ITN/R, this is most certainly not the place for that.
DeterenceTalk08:04, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose - Winner of a card game is not my cup of tea for ITN. Strongly suggest we ignore ITNR and pass over this item. Suggest ITNR be modified asap to remove this event.
Jusdafax06:49, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
No opinion on the merits of the item, but when was this added to ITNR? I don't remember seeing it before, and as has been noted above this has never previously been posted.
Modest Geniustalk10:17, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The update is that some of the people who opposed at the top did so before the Pius Heinz article was anything more than a short stub and the 2011 WSOP article had one section of prose followed by the various tables. Both articles have since been worked on and expanded.---BalloonmanPoppa Balloon01:06, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose. In the grand scheme of things, a minor sport. Mwalcoff's point that the last final got a rating of 0.5, compared to a rating of 12 for an ordinary Monday Night Football game, is meaningful.
Neutralitytalk02:33, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
A Test-match in cricket last 5 full days, and usually ends in a draw. A few hours of poker doesn't even begin to compare in the test-of-patience metre, lol.
DeterenceTalk11:02, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
This is no more a cultural minority topic than America's use of drones to bomb suspected Islamic militants on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border is a cultural minority topic.
DeterenceTalk12:25, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support Rather obvious notability. The nomination could have done with a proper reference to source(s) and without that futile tangent about minority topics.
DeterenceTalk13:17, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
This is stale. This happened on November 4; in fact this was moved on the November 4 section but it was soon archived. Dunno why this is here again. –HTD14:12, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Because it had support for the sam eready and yet with a bigger update wasntposted , though Joe demise was with crap all for an uptdate. Timer is up so a few hours could do too.
Lihaas (
talk)
20:43, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Lihaas, it's too late for this from a technical point of view. When we add the next item, the earliest item in the box will be 6th November. But this happened on 4th November. --
FormerIP (
talk)
21:49, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Strong oppose If this goes in the correct position it will be at best the last item on the template, and the supports above were for the previous nomination, not this one. To make matters worse, the copied previous discussion has been manipulated: my comments, which were essentially neutral were omitted. Finally, it has been repeatedly marker ready by its nominator.
The essential problem here is that it was nominated late. Too bad - that ship has sailed now: there is a reason we archive candidates five days after the event.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
01:44, 10 November 2011 (UTC).reply
Oppose The main quake was notable enough for ITN. This is not. It doesn't matter whether it was an aftershock or not, it only matters whether the earthquake killed "a lot" of people (which IMO, should be 100+). HurricaneFan2515:45, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The Syrian government continues its crackdown on protesters and army defectors in the city of
Homs, killing dozens of civilians in the process.
(Al Jazeera)
The
United Nations reports that the death toll of the eight-month-old Syrian uprising has reached 3,500.
(BBC)
NASA observes the
asteroidYU55 as it makes a close Earth flyby, passing within 0.85
lunar distances (about 201,700 miles) of the Earth. YU55 is approximately 400 metres (1,300 ft) across, and is the largest asteroid to make a close pass since 1976.
(BBC)(WSJ)(SLOOH)
Strong support. Another reason for significance: it's the first ever sample-return mission to a natural satellite of another planet (previous sample return missions were to the earth's moon and an asteroid) and, if successful, it will be the first mission to return a macroscopic (more than a few grams) sample since
Luna 24. Perhaps blurb could be modified to reflect this? It's a very significant event.
Nanobear (
talk)
20:31, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Can the blurb be updated to include the fact that the spacecraft has failed to depart Earth orbit?
[59] (for the record this is a spacecraft failure not a launch failure, and whilst it is unclear whether the spacecraft can be recovered it is a significant anomaly) --GW…02:39, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oh bugger. Hopefully it will get fixed in the next few days, but I'm not optimistic. English-language source for the failure:
Washington Post. Not sure how to incorporate this into the blurb without making it very long though.
Modest Geniustalk09:26, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Looks like it could be just a software problem, so there's a good chance the mission can still be saved. Let's keep the current blurb for 1-2 days, and see if the first attempt to retry firing propulsion unit will be successful. If not, we can then change the blurb to reflect the fact that the probe is still stuck in initial Earth orbit. Let's not be too hasty; the blurb is still correct per se ("the mission was launched"), and WP is not a news service.
Nanobear (
talk)
20:20, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The spacecraft failure is ongoing and may well result in the vehicle burning up on re-entry. Last I read, the Russians had lost all contact. I'd say the blurb either needs an update (it is a big craft and the contents are toxic) or should at least be pulled from the Main Page asap.
Jusdafax05:21, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I don't think there's a need to do anything rash. It looks like the mission's success or failure won't be determined until well after the blurb has rotated off the main page in a day or two. A future ITN mention may be warranted if the thing comes crashing back down to Earth in a few weeks, depending on how and where it lands. --
Bongwarrior (
talk)
06:28, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Read this recently updated BBC article
[60] and see if you still agree. Bong, our ITN blurb is as stale as three day old bread, and makes ITN look uninformed and/or foolish. This quote from the BBC is serious: "The Russian Interfax news agency reported a space industry source on Friday as saying: "Several attempts have been made overnight to receive telemetry from the spacecraft. The result of all of them was nothing. The chance that the station could be saved is very, very slim," the translation from BBC Monitoring said. This needs prompt attention, in my view.
Jusdafax06:42, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I agree that we should modify the blurb to make it clear that the craft has failed, but am not sure how to do that withuot making it excessively long. I don't think it should be pulled, because the failure in itself is a significant event.
Modest Geniustalk12:45, 12 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I think that the present blurb does not describe the event in a proper way. It reads like an opening of some pipe in a German city, while in fact it is the world's longest submerged
pipeline spanning most of the
Baltic Sea, highly important for Russia and half of Europe. And we usually highlight the world records or at least the main technical parameters such as length when we post infrastructure items. Also, this is not the first or only opening and inauguration of the pipeline (though it is the main one), there was already an official opening/inauguration in September when Russia started piping technical gas into the pipe. That's the reasoning for my blurb:
I should notice that Beagel's blurb is also better than the present one, even though there were also representatives of France and the Netherlands, not only Russia and Germany, and it is better to avoid mentioning controversial controversy.
GreyHoodTalk19:13, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Hey, this event happened after Joe Frazier's death, so they should be re-arranged in the template. And could we post the map after some time?
GreyHoodTalk21:07, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Ok, replacing the text. The map is not very informative on such a small scale (cca 100px), so let's keep the present one. Also moving to the top spot, chronologically. --Tone21:29, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment Note to self: any news items that have something to do with the President of the Russian Federation usually have free good-quality press images under Creative Commons available at
http://kremlin.ru/ (realized this too late for ITN image :) --
hydrox (
talk)
19:48, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Well I'm certainly leaning towards it. Have you read the article's death section? Its straightforwardness is blinding. Nightw04:40, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support Joe Frazier meets one of the requisite criteria for ITN/DC: "The deceased was widely regarded as a very important figure in his or her field." I don't give a rat's fart about boxing but even I know he's "one of the greats".
DeterenceTalk06:46, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support Frasier was a champion when there weren't multiple world champions in each division as there are today due the appalling nature of the sport's administration these days. Truly worthy. (I don't enjoy boxing either.)
HiLo48 (
talk)
07:37, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Going to post when there is some more update. Of course, the length of the update should be proportional to the length of the article, so that we don't run into WP:UNDUE issue here but still it needs more than one line. --Tone08:34, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
PULLL WHAT REASOn is that? because an admin likes it? Articles with bigger updates adre not posted (and under the same guise as hot stop). The update here is TWO LINES.)
Lihaas (
talk)
08:31, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I agree with the GreatOrangePumpkin - sometimes there simply isn't anything else to say about the subject matter. The pointlessness of insisting on substantial updates for ITN candidates was especially evident with the recent announcements of this year's Nobel Prize laureates, where candidates were needlessly delayed for days because of the brevity of their article updates when the hard truth of the matter was that, aside from announcing (and sourcing) the award of the Nobel prizes, there simply wasn't anything else to be said.
DeterenceTalk12:09, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The nominated event is listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Support - significant in the region, has made press over in the UK. Clean-up tag has gone, and article looks reasonable. Shame that the detailed results haven't yet been announced, but the re-election is the story here.
Warofdreamstalk14:27, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I was going to mark this as "Ready" but there's nothing in the text that the competent authority (presumably the Electoral Council) has declared a winner. Once someone does an update this should be good to go. –HTD14:59, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I'd like a few more sentences before this becomes ready. But if there's nothing else to write about, we might as well post this. –HTD03:25, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I know this is not prerequisite but I think it'd be a bad idea to post it before Ortega's article is updated as well... --Tone12:45, 11 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Flooding continues in
Italy with seven people having died in the past week and thousands of people ordered to evacuate in
Turin as the
Po River continues to rise.
(BBC)
An inquiry is launched following claims identity checks on travellers entering the
United Kingdom from outside Europe were scaled back during the summer.
Home SecretaryTheresa May tells the
House of Commons she does not know how many entered the country without proper checks.
(BBC)
Nominator's comments: Article has a "needs more citations tag". If that proves unfixable the Death of Michael Jackson article could be used instead.--
FormerIP (
talk)
22:09, 7 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose. What significance does this have? People are convicted of manslaughter every day, the only difference here is that the victim was a celebrity. So what?
Modest Geniustalk21:50, 7 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Not really. Everything that happens to people that we post on ITN is stuff that happens to people every day. They get a new job, they win a race, they get shot. It's the context that counts. The difference is that the victim was a celerity, and quite a big celebrity. So what? So it is newsworthy. --
FormerIP (
talk)
01:12, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support - If Casey Anthony can get on ITN, so can Conrad Murray. -
Presidentman [[User
Oppose - the world isn't into celebrity tabloids. That's entirely a local issue, even years after a major English-speaking singer's death.
Mamyles (
talk)
23:46, 7 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose This is the kind of celebrity driven nonsense which should feature, at most, in the "current affairs" section of Wikipedia. This is not front page news. It is associated with a very famous person, but fame does not always equal notability, as many Wiki arguments down the years have proven.
doktorbwordsdeeds23:53, 7 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I guess today we'll have the distinction of being the only organisation in the world that provides news but isn't a tabloid, then. Really hard groan. --
FormerIP (
talk)
01:12, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I guess that we are an organisation which understands that this news story is just the development of a celebrity based story, and as such is not notable in and of itself. I cannot think of any other context in which we'd put the result of a court case like this on the front page. In current affairs, yes, that fits. But the front page? That would provide far more credence to a piece of showbiz
doktorbwordsdeeds06:06, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Strong support One of the most well-known global musicians is found to have been killed by a doctor that committed involuntary manslaughter. I doubt we'd be debating the topic back in the day if it were Elvis's doctor that had just been found guilty, or if it were
Mark David Chapman getting banged up. Moronic opposes fuelled by bias. Disregard them. Pyrrhus1601:32, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
You were doing so well until calling people "moronic". It is not moronic to point out that this conviction is just a minor continuation of a story which petered out years ago, outside the pages of the tabloid press. Wiki gives front page prominence to important developments in current affairs. This is not important, a development, and only just falls into the broad definition of 'current affairs'
doktorbwordsdeeds15:19, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support - Precedent-setting verdict on the liability of doctors in supporting the habits of drug-addicted superstars, regardless of mean motive or end intention. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲτ¢02:30, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose - I am pretty surprised that the death itself wasn't posted (according to the archives at least), but the trial and conviction is pretty meaningless to most readers, probably the exception would be ardent fans.
YuMaNuMa (
talk)
12:29, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
MJ's death was posted, I am not sure how it is with archives from back then but I know we don't have them for some current months already, if anyone wants some barnstars... ;-) Regarding this nomination, I oppose on the reasons presented above. --Tone12:35, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose that is not news. This was discussed several times, and it was since his death self-evident that he was at fault for contaminating him, and he was the only person near Jackson.--
♫GoP♫TCN13:21, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support. Come on guys, this is Michael Jackson's death we're talking about, not some random celebrity. And the fact that someone turns out to be responsible for his death is certainly not "tabloid" material. People in this section know I'm generally against posting interest-based news items like this. But even I can recognize that there's a huge gap in consistency if we continue to post accidental deaths of motorcyclists and not the fact that the biggest pop star on the planet was killed by someone else. JimSukwutput18:22, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support. I must agree that the oppose arguments posted so far are invalid. Michael Jackson's death is the most notable death in the last 10 years at least. His article had the most views in a day in the history of WP I believe. It's ridiculous to simply classify this as 'celebrity news' and oppose. And it's standard in court cases to wait for the conviction to post.--
Johnsemlak (
talk)
03:48, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The nominated event is listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
I believe this is already official. I'd say, though, that the article on Molina is not great. It doesn't follow
WP:LEAD and the biography is very thin. Given that he is a politician, you would expect it to go into detail about what his political positions are, how he has done in previous elections and how he has managed the feat of founding a new political party and gaining enough popularity to be elected president within the space of ten years.--
FormerIP (
talk)
20:37, 7 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's comments: Agreement reachesd on formation of new govt, tomorrow the announcement for who will lead it. (probs Venizelos). Thats 4/5 PIIGS that have/having election in 2011=2012...italy should soon make it all 5`
Lihaas (
talk)
21:37, 6 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Wait Evidently, the political situation in Greece is very fluid these days - there has been all manner of back-tracking (by media and the politicians themselves) and policy changes about everything from referenda to resignations to coalition formations to support/opposition for austerity measures. These days, 24 hours is a very long time in Greek politics.
DeterenceTalk22:25, 6 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support when official It's still a bit foggy in details – who will be the next PM etc. – but speculation had it new PM could be inaugurated already this week (UTC).
Evangelos Venizelos has been fitting the crown, but the situation in Greece is so volatile that it could change any minute. --
hydrox (
talk)
00:10, 7 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Right now, the nomination is moot. There is no doubt, of course, that it will be posted. However, unless we know the exact details or whether or not it will actually occur, neither a post nor a substantial article update can be made.--
WaltCip (
talk)
01:23, 7 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Papademos' name has been thrown around for a few days but nothing has been confirmed. These days, predictions regarding contemporary Greek politics aren't worth the paper the media pretenders write them on. I maintain that we should wait.
DeterenceTalk04:55, 9 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Article updated The nominated event is listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Support. Major landslide and the toll is still rising, though potentially insignificant compared to ongoing flooding in the region. ~
AH1(discuss!)21:42, 6 November 2011 (UTC)reply
hmm, split on this. while we generally seem to pick by severity of casualties this would not match, but its also a minority topic with the oft neglected Latam region.
Lihaas (
talk)
22:34, 6 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment - The article is a stub, and the update is a couple sentences. The attention given to the article, and that flooding occurred last year as well, suggests that it is not so notable.
Mamyles (
talk)
23:50, 7 November 2011 (UTC)reply
You have to wonder just how many people know someone/are someone from Colombia, have a computer, know english, and know how to edit wikipedia. As for everybody else in the weather department, if you may, they've been hard at work with all this crazy weather. When the snow storms stop, the tornadoes start. Then it's the hurricanes. There is no time for wikipedians who care about weather to deal about something like this. (What is rain compared to the Joplin tornado?) However, the weather has seemed to stop (besides a few droughts and some others), and this is the biggest weather event right now. And where are the wikipedians? Taking a breather. My god, we had snow already, and we just started November!
Bar Code Symmetry(Talk)02:40, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
contradictory repsonse from Deterence and AstroHurricane01...not sure which is true. if the latter is right then support otherwise oppose.
Lihaas (
talk)
23:29, 6 November 2011 (UTC)reply
They are only semi-regular in that calving events occur once every few years. I'm getting somewhat variable reports on the size of this block:
New Zealand Herald puts it at 900 sq km,
Fox News at 880 sq km and the
Christian Science Monitor at 780 sq km. FOX suggests that the last "significant" calving was in 2001, from which the space photos are available
here, and the iceberg that calved was about 715 sq km. The exact size of this one is likely to be 800 - 850 sq km when it does calve, though I did forget to mention that the last calving actually took place
in 2007, with an area of about 680 sq km. Regular observations show calving events roughly every 5 – 10 years, though this latest one is (or will be) the largest in more than 10 years. However, this particular glacier potentially merits more attention than the recent
Mertz Glacier break-off (2,545 sq km), and perhaps even the
Larsen B ice shelf collapse (3,250 sq km), simply because Pine Island Bay is one of Antarctica's biggest contributors to land ice loss. In 1995, it released about 2.6 cubic km of meltwater into the ocean per year, a rate with increased to 10.1 cubic km in 2006; the rate was 6 gigatonnes in 2005 (AP via NZ Herald) and increased to 46 gigatonnes sometime between 2007 and 2010 (see the article on glacier). My research indicates that the
West Antarctic Ice Sheet loses a total of 132 - 196 billion tonnes of meltwater per year, so the Pine Island Glacier alone contributes a significant sum of that, and this calving is likely to further increase melting. New discoveries continue to be made in the region, including
this one of a deep warm-water channel underneath the glacier in 2009. ~
AH1(discuss!)03:05, 7 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose first of all, who won, also not a seriously major award that is almost within the line of the Brit Awards. How does the EMA compared to the Grammys, IMO nowhere in their league. The VMA is much more bigger award in comparison to the European one that is why I never saw the EMA as a serious award.
Donnie Park (
talk)
19:09, 6 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I don't have much more than I put on the talk page for
El Hierro here
Talk:El_Hierro#Eruption_Underway - but it looks interesting at the moment, and quite likely to have a new island/chunk of island breach the sea's surface today. I know the article's not well fleshed out, and that there is no update at the moment on the actual eruption etc, but I thought I'd flag it up now as it's likely to hit the English speaking news shortly. It's only made AFP due to people being evacuated so far.
EdwardLane (
talk)
08:18, 6 November 2011 (UTC)reply
This is no more a cultural minority topic than America's use of drones to bomb suspected Islamic militants on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border is a cultural minority topic.
DeterenceTalk12:25, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support Rather obvious notability. The nomination could have done with a proper reference to source(s) and without that futile tangent about minority topics.
DeterenceTalk13:17, 8 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment I'm not opposing this, but if posted it should at least be filed under the correct date. Items should not get preferential treatment because they were put in the wrong place. The fact that this was a late nom is too bad and I'm moving it to the correct place as a consequence.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
22:19, 8 November 2011 (UTC).reply
Oppose While this has received saturation coverage over the last view days in the British media, and doubtless has attracted broader international coverage, in the great scheme of things it lacks the widespread notability an ITN item generally requires.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
16:47, 6 November 2011 (UTC).reply
Oppose I would had also opposed that as it is more of a UK worthy news as opposed to international news which is what ITN is for, also no major international Hollywood box office draw star got fatally involved which would had helped this chance better. All is not list but at least it gets a consolation prize, a
DYK nomination by me.
Donnie Park (
talk)
18:52, 6 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose per Crispmuncher. Even sensational car crashes like this have no tangible significance for the rest of us ... unless Jake and Elwood are involved.
DeterenceTalk20:51, 6 November 2011 (UTC)reply
NOTICE - Please STOP trading
insults and using this place as a
FORUM. Lihaas, enough with the personal insults, and this incident most certainly does deserve an article, it's not ITN worthy however, LK - please keep a cool head and don't resort to using insults in response to comments you may disagree with. Enough is enough. --
Nutthida (
talk)
02:36, 7 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support in principle, particularly since I think there has been a gap since anything was posted relating to South America. But the article is not ready. For such a significant figure, it is very sketchy. --
FormerIP (
talk)
11:10, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment I really don't care about this one way or the other, but note there is an issues template that would really need resolving before a post. I've also de-asserted minority status: I don't see any even arguable rationale for asserting it.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
19:05, 5 November 2011 (UTC).reply
One or both nominated events are listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: I discovered this news and thought it was something that would be great for the ITN section. Chemistry rarely has anything this noteworthy. --
Found5dollar (
talk)
03:14, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support - The official naming of elements is usually a few years apart, thus why new elements are an ITN/R item for both discovery and name confirmation. Until now it was listed under a different name in periodic tables. Elements are of top importance to science, and every student will hear of them, so this makes great news.
Mamyles (
talk)
03:43, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Ready Apparently, the official naming of "new" elements is ITN/R. The articles are very comprehensive even if the updates about the naming are understandably brief.
DeterenceTalk04:50, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Note that ITN/R only specifically mentions the official naming by
IUPAC (the chemistry organisation) and not IUPAP (the physics organisation). In this instance it is the IUPAP naming, IUPAC naming of the elements occurred earlier (I think). For example we
previously featured the IUPAC naming of Copernicium in February -
Dumelow (
talk)
15:43, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I wasn't objecting, just saw this crop up at wp:errors and wanted to clarify the situation here with regards to the exact wording of ITN/R (I have no opinion on whether to change ITN/R to cover IUPAP as well, might be worth discussing) -
Dumelow (
talk)
16:00, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I was the one who originally wrote that ITNR entry, in the (apparently-erroneous) belief that the names were usually agreed by both organizations simultaneously (through their joint working group). I think we're best off avoiding duplicates; how about changing it to cover both organizations, but only posting whichever is first?
Modest Geniustalk23:32, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Given that these were posted on the basis of a reading of ITN/R that we seem to agree is not the intention of the listing there, propose we should pull the item on the grounds that the only thing that is new is rather insignificant (IUPAP conforms to the names already given by IUPAC)
Kevin McE (
talk)
11:25, 6 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I agree. I think this is a matter of the news media being very unclear; IUPAC named at least one of these elements seven years ago.
[63]NW(
Talk)17:19, 6 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Conditional Support pending update of the article (and this event actually occurring). There is little doubt that such an event would be a leading news story in every international media outlet around the Western world.
DeterenceTalk12:30, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
He has offered to resign before, but it was not accepted.
[64] There is no reason to suggest another instance would be different, but if the resignation is accepted it would be notable.
Mamyles (
talk)
13:18, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Update The
BBC now reports that earlier reports of Papandreou's impending resignation may have been premature: "Earlier the BBC reported that the PM was preparing to resign. But state TV reported that he had ruled this out during the meeting."
DeterenceTalk14:22, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment AP is reporting that the europackage referendum, announced only on Monday, has been canceled. Very fast developments here, exercise caution.. --
hydrox (
talk)
15:59, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment - I'm not sure "Bankrupt country's leader stays the same" is very noteworthy in the scheme of long-term important news.
Mamyles (
talk)
23:46, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support Obviously. Politicians, bankers, international financiers and anyone who hasn't been living under a rock will have been waiting for the outcome of this vote.
DeterenceTalk23:49, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose Lack of news is not news. There's no story in a cabinet weathering a vote of confidence; happens every day around the world even for much more powerful governments. --
hydrox (
talk)
02:26, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
update blurb with the article that has a massive update. and marking ready.
As an aside, i agree with Hydrox. Wait gfor the new government amid the calls for the election in 2012 (which finmin already says will happen after the 4 month govt passes the bailout bill.)
Lihaas (
talk)
10:25, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose Passing a confidence vote is ultimately the lack of an event. That doesn't present an automatic bar on inclusion but the case has not been made for the posting of something that didn't happen. I'm also un-marking as ready since a judgement of consensus isn't a given here.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
19:02, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
ARTICLE is ready and marked in that way, not ready in terms of consensus...i added the ready tag despite my objections because the article is ready.
Lihaas (
talk)
19:32, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
As much as I'd want to see an article about an African election where the incumbent won (happens 99% of the time), I'd imagine
the update wasn't enough. –HTD14:24, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Article updated The nominated event is listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: The FSB is a body tasked with co-ordinating global efforts to set regulations and to prevent future financial meltdowns, like the one that put us where we are today. It recently has been given more power by the G20 leaders to make it more effective at ensuring that governments implement reforms as promised. --NaturalRX18:19, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support Ordinarily, the appointment of another nobody to an international
quango no one has heard of wouldn't raise much (any) interest. But, these are not ordinary times. Given the preeminence given to the FSB at the G-20, this organisation looks like it will have a significant role in international finance, and reforms and regulation thereof, in the future. Btw, I don't think this is ITN/R.
DeterenceTalk21:55, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's comments: We have discussed this at the moment of Mars landing simulation and agreed to wait until the end of the experiment. Overall on the notability of the event, it is the largest manned Mars flight experiment of such scale and duration and must be one of the most significant spaceflight experiments in general.
GreyHoodTalk12:43, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support beyond any question an important event; "That's one small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind" might fit here.--
♫GoP♫TCN13:20, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support - for being a mock-up, it is quite interesting. The amount of detail for the experiment is staggering. I've edited the blurb to bold the main article.
Mamyles (
talk)
13:33, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose Hey, but it was just a land-based psychological experiment easily within the means of just about everybody determined enough, not even the first of its kind, what kind of leap is GreatOrange Pumpking taking about? This is not yet April Fools' Day.
Colchicum (
talk)
13:53, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
This is the first and maybe last experiment of its type. 520 days is not short. The first was 15 day and the second 105 day. That's why it is called "MARS-500".--
♫GoP♫TCN14:40, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Colchicum, if one of us just sits 500 days in total recluse somewhere and then claims to be psychologically able to fly to Mars, this is not a scientific experiment. But modelling every detail of the journey, from the spaceship cabin and on-board activities to Mars landing, for one and a half year, is a highly significant and professional experiment.
GreyHoodTalk14:55, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose it is easy to overstate the significance of this. The value of the whole experiment has repeatedly been called into question
[65] an various aspects have been exceeded in one way or another. I'm reminded of the
Biosphere 2 experiments where the subjects were locked away for a full two years or indeed the current space endurance record (
Valeri Polyakov at 417 days) - a shorter time yes, but in zero gravity and with the added psychological factor of being in permanent danger, as would be experienced in a real Mars mission. There's no question this experiment has got a certain amount of publicity, but I'd hardly call it some kind of giant step forward.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
17:42, 4 November 2011 (UTC).reply
Not specifically, but both were explicitly intended as tests of technologies for interplanetary travel. The precise simulated target is by and large of secondary importance. Are we really supposing they would disregard the "results" of this study if the intention was e.g. a Venus flyby instead of a Mars landing.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
03:34, 5 November 2011 (UTC).reply
Comment: As others have noted, this is not some kind of great scientific experiment, this is being advertised as such so they can have more funds. Submarine crews, people working in Antarctica stay in confined and hostile environment for longer periods. The thing about space is that the most important element was missing; Weightlessness affects your psychology, muscles, blood circulation, bones etc. Just staying in a room for 20 years is absolutely not a simulation of long space journeys. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Tachfin (
talk •
contribs) 20:06, November 4 2011
I dont know why you (and some people above) would assume there will be weightlessness... The proposed design (so far) all produce artificial gravity. This test wasnt about whether you can survive in antarctic's hostile enviornment (spaceships are not necessarily hostile), it was whether you can take a long ass trip in space. Not the same thing --
Ashish-g5520:12, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Have you checked the heading of the section? Of course people know that is the aim. They couldn't have got here without seeing it.
HiLo48 (
talk)
21:28, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I've written the heading myself ;) It seems however some people think it is just a kind of prolonged survival and psychological experiment and judge it as such. These are important aspects, but not the main ones.
GreyHoodTalk21:33, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I haven't seen any serious proposal (i.e something that could be done in the next 50 years instead of a purely conceptual exercise) that would allow for simulated gravity en route.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
03:34, 5 November 2011 (UTC).reply
All exercises are conceptual!!! nothing has been built yet obviously. But from what i know designs include spinning of structure to use centrifugal force as artificial gravity. General Relativity 101... I dont think im qualified enough to make further comment since im not in that field but you not having seen any such proposal is really not a good argument --
Ashish-g5503:50, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Testing how humans live for a long time without gravity is not really important after plenty of long spaceflights on
Mir and
ISS. The experiment was about Mars flight, testing how people communicate when signals go for minutes between Earth and spaceship, how they deal with technical problems when they know they would not recieve any support from Earth, etc.
GreyHoodTalk13:07, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment I'm really torn about this. On the one hand, we haven't had an update in ages. On the other, the update is poor, and wouldn't usually be accepted. -- tariqabjotu09:20, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose after the fact. I cannot believe wikipedia has gone in for publicizing this kind of junk science that has been that has been widely ridiculed for completely ignoring key elements. As discussed above any real Mars-shot proposal anticipates zero gravity en route - please don't distort the argument by proposing 2001-style arrangements that the professionals are not, and that have very real practical difficulties. Where is the psychological value of simulating a mission where the occupants are trapped on board and in constant danger in a form where the subjects are free to leave at any time and are perfectly safe at all times? This is PR stunt, not science, and you should be ashamed of yourselves for posting it. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
87.114.207.101 (
talk)
14:43, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
It is a key factor. On previous long duration space flights the crewmember has been incapacitated on their return to Earth and in need of considerable physiotherapy to rebuild muscle mass, even with the orbital exercise regime. A Mars mission involves a long-duration space flight followed by a landing on Mars and the crew are expected to be immediately capable to work. Mars' gravity may be lower than Earth's but it is still quite strong and this is a big concern. Not addressed here at all. Neither are the risks of radiation or solar flares or other innumerable difficulties. Instead people go on about psychological issues and how they would cope with technical difficulties in comparative isolation from Earth - difficulties that are purely an intellectual exercise in this experiment, but place the crew in mortal danger in a real mission. However you spin this the experiment is far too limited to be of any practical relevance. You can earn a lot more about these issue by studying other environments where people are isolated and in real rather than imaginary danger - in the Antartic, deep underground or on mountain tops for example.
87.114.207.101 (
talk)
15:33, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The dangers were modeled during the experiment, and the fact that humans could survive long periods of artificial gravity was proven long before. This experiment concentrated on other aspects of Mars flight, which are numerous.
GreyHoodTalk19:25, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose I have to say I was amazed this got posted too. The criticisms of this exercise have been widely made, are substantial, and are not anywhere near as easily dismissed as it has attempted to be made out above. The lack of gravity is a major shortcoming, as is the lack of danger: these invalidate large parts of the human factors that are the supposed goal of the project. Even the crew is artificial - does anyone seriously suppose it would be politically acceptable to exclude women from the mission when hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars would have been spent on a real mission? When you consider the large number of science stories that don't get posted this seems totally out of place. In a hundred years who is going to care about the dubious results of this experiment in the slightest?
Flying Llamas (
talk)
17:50, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The part on women was rather interesting.. As for the question who cares, well, few nations are planning actual Mars mission in the next decades, and I suppose the space professionals and space fans really do care about the results of this experiment.
GreyHoodTalk19:25, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment I've tagged this for re-evaluation in light of post-posting comments. To be honest there is not much that wasn't said prior to posting but it's probably best it is re-considered if only to confirm the current position.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
19:09, 5 November 2011 (UTC).reply
Having just read the discussion, it's my determination that the decision to post was reasonable. Comments regarding the experiment's questionable scientific value appear valid, but they don't negate its high-profile nature. If reliable sources have published such assessments, a Criticism section should be added. —
David Levy20:46, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
At least 20 people and 13 soldiers are killed in ongoing fighting in the city of
Homs.
(Reuters)
President of SyriaBashar al-Assad agrees with the
Arab League to end the crackdown on the uprising in Syria, releasing political prisoners and allowing international news agencies back into Syria.
(CNN)
Nominator's comments: I'd normally be the last to nominate a surfing item but this seems unusually noteworthy; though a decent update needs to be made. There's some talk in the Australian press of Slater being one of the 'greatest ever' sportsmen even. --
Johnsemlak (
talk)
14:39, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose although there are plenty of surf wannabes all over the world, how many people are really interested in surfing as a spectator sport or take it seriously as a sport compared to something like cricket, rugby, baseball. Therefore I consider this a minority topic. My vote is based on that if this going to appeal to a wide scope of people which is what ITN is.
Donnie Park (
talk)
19:34, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support in principle (ie subject to the article being good enough). I would certainly not advocate that this be ITNR. But Slater's is an extraordinary achievement and is rightly receiving an extraordinary degree of press coverage (at least where I live). --
Mkativerata (
talk)
19:47, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose - minority sport and hardly noteworthy in sporting news anyway, localized press coverage is not wide, little interest outside the US at any rate. --
Nutthida (
talk)
20:27, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support Plenty of media coverage in my part of the world. Claiming this to be a minority sport obviously depends on one's persperctive. And Slater is an extraordinary standout in this sport. The number of times he has won makes this highly notable. [Maybe "Kelly Slater wins World Surfing title again" should be the ITN/R item ;-) ]
HiLo48 (
talk)
22:23, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support, as this is both interesting and notable. That it's a minority sport shouldn't harm the nomination, as even a minority deserves occasional mention.
Mamyles (
talk)
02:11, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Please note the comment at the top of the page... "Do not add simple "support" or "oppose" votes. Explain the reasons whyyouthink the item meets or does not meet the ITN inclusion criteria..." Otherwise, it's just a vote, and we don't do that here.
HiLo48 (
talk)
20:12, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I personally have no problem with that, and occasionally do it myself. The 'per user' means you have the same reasoning, and it would make little sense to paraphrase exactly what was already said.
Mamyles (
talk)
02:40, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
This is just bizarre. Since pro surfing appears incapable of running an organized competition, it seems to me it's not notable enough to post (oh, wait, we post FIFA stuff, never mind).--
Johnsemlak (
talk)
17:34, 5 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment Sounds very interesting and I will surely support if something more serious happens. Probably this will be following with proceedings against the convicted, that will end with reasonable conclusion.--
Kiril Simeonovski (
talk)
16:09, 1 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support No need to wait for the convictions. The guilty verdicts are enough. Note that there is also a guilty plea by a third Pakistani cricketer which had been suppressed until these verdicts were announced. So we have three international athletes guilty of cheating at the highest level. This is massive news in cricket, and really for any international sport where betting occurs.
HiLo48 (
talk)
22:54, 1 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I agree. There is no advantage in awaiting sentencing. The notable event is the convictions themselves - the sentences simply add a little flavour.
DeterenceTalk01:55, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment Given that sentencing is due today, and will probably up the notability somewhat (an international sports captain may well go to prison for cheating), I'd say wait a few hours. Having said that I would support posting after sentencing pretty much regardless of what the sentences are.
ReadingOldBoy (
talk)
10:03, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support once articles are updated and sentences doled out; nothing unexpected, but a captain of a major cricketing nation like Pakistan getting convicted is huge news. Lynch718:41, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Four men are arrested in the
U.S. state of
Georgia for plotting to kill government officials with explosives and the toxic substance
ricin.
(Washington Post)
Nominator's comments: Summit over a few days ago and wholly sourced, red timer above and we can add it to the 2nd last ITN or so.
Lihaas (
talk)
09:46, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Ready This
appears to be ITN/R, so I have voted Ready instead of Support. Update, per the heads-up provided by HTD below: while I support the nomination of
CHOGM, and support the inclusion of CHOGM in ITN/R, this particular nomination comes with a somewhat dubious pedigree, (to put it mildly).
DeterenceTalk10:04, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
*Support - major international event. If there is disquiet among regulars here about the nomination process, perhaps they could share it with the rest of us, if they think it should affect the decision process.
Ghmyrtle (
talk)
14:02, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Did i claim it to be ITNR...i duly mentioned the same on the talk page. Andother editors did make bold additions both inj the past and recently (per the space exploration) Refrain from NPAs and comment on CONTENT.
Lihaas (
talk)
16:55, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Ummm, i didnt nom it as ITNR GROW UP AND TaKE YOUR THUMB OUT OF YOUR MOUTH dear da-da-goo-goo' discussion does not mean NPA. which was mentioned in what you replied to! or is that difficult to drill in? Instead of crying/sulking you can DISCUSS it on talk.
Lihaas (
talk)
17:49, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's comments: Nearly updated.Will take suggestions on an improved blurb. The protest was estimated at 7000 persons. I can't find a figure on how much shutting down the port will cost the city but that may be a notable figure. --
Johnsemlak (
talk)
08:34, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support This protest reflects a dramatic escalation of events after local law enforcement sent in riot police using batons and tear-gas against an otherwise insignificant "occupy" sit-in by a relative handful of protesters. For those demanding a noteworthy trigger before posting an ITN item about the "occupy" protests, short of fatalities, it doesn't get much more noteworthy than this. I'll bet my left nut that this doesn't get posted.
DeterenceTalk08:58, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
conditional oppose merge with the other protests (big one in tokoy recently) Or have a sticky for 2011 protests, and boy are there plenty this year.
Oppose One significant element of a large protest movement, as such it amounts to nothing more than "a little local difficulty". Not notable in the wider context
doktorbwordsdeeds09:45, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Weak Oppose - while a general strike is rare in the US, it has been done before in Oakland. I don't think this development is worth featuring, as a small part of the nation's occupy protests.
Mamyles (
talk)
12:20, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Really - they closed a major port, and the police responded with force! I don't understand the overt resistance to posting "Occupy" articles on ITN. It's either "not significant", or a "local problem". The conviction of some former PM of the Ukraine is a local problem, the worlds longest guided busway is a local problem, for crying out loud, a "cricket fixing scandal" made ITN but not riots and tear gas and a general strike in a major American City. What the hell?!? --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
02:48, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I knew immediately after clicking save that someone would fixate on the "America" part. Of course, if 7000 were rioting in Mar Del Plata or in Conakry it would be front page news here, but since it's in America, we need to keep a "world view" and cover a cricket scandal instead. So I struck "america", will you please address the other concerns and stop trolling? --
76.18.43.253 (
talk)
11:09, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Are you seriously suggesting that all 7,000 participants in the Occupy Oakland who shut-down the port are "'civil disobedience' fanatics"? How about the countless thousands of "occupy" protesters in the (literally) hundreds of cities around the world, are they all "'civil disobedience' fanatics", too? For a guy who constantly preaches about POV-pushing, that is an extraordinarily polemic stance you are taking.
DeterenceTalk08:18, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
It wasn't the 7,000 participants who shut down the port, although they might have had that intention. It was a small number of protesters - most likely the same anarchists who are smashing windows and starting fires downtown - who decided to barge in the port and endanger the lives of the very workers who they claim to be fighting for. That was why the port was closed.
As someone who has witnessed firsthand the violent persecution of thousands of men and women at the hands of "anti-capitalist" revolutionaries who chanted the same slogans and engaged in the same tactics as some of these protesters, I don't particularly care if you think I'm POV-pushing. Fanatics are fanatics, and ITN should not serve as a propaganda tool for their "victories".JimSukwutput16:40, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose These events are hard to assess. There have been Occupy protests in hundreds of cities all around the world. Many have involved disruption to local business and alleged police brutality. I could not possibly claim to know enough about all the others in the world nor have the arrogance to claim that the one in my city was more significant than all the others. Do those supporting this nomination really know enough about all the others to make that comparison?
HiLo48 (
talk)
11:18, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Strong oppose The Occupy Oakland protest did shut down the port, but it doesn't have any real
historical significance and mainly the impacts of it were centered only in the Bay Area, and it isn't really of "international importance". HurricaneFan2517:07, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The nominated event is listed on
WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet
WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Ready As ITN/R, the only question is whether the article is ready. While it could use some more substantive content - especially regarding the actual agenda - that will likely come along as the summit proceeds.
DeterenceTalk07:05, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support immediate posting. The event is the news, and it should be posted whether or not progress is made. The article is ready.
Mamyles (
talk)
13:23, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's comments: Not only a notable conviction, but also a significant issue in U.S.-Russia relations. Bout is said to have connections to the Russian government. --
Colchicum (
talk)
01:16, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support Yeah Lihaas, he won't be sentenced for awhile. ITN has posted figures for simply being
indicted. Blurb should be updated that actually enumerates what he was convicted for. I think conspiring to kill Americans if i can remember.
WikifanBe nice05:57, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Conditional Support pending update of the article to include details of the agreement. But, I don't hold out much hope of this making it into ITN given its current nonsensical editorial climate where news about bloody basketball rakes in significantly more support than anything about Syria's civil war or even Earth-shattering news about Europe's debt crisis.
DeterenceTalk20:46, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
If you just want to stir up trouble, go back to the playground. There is a story about Europe's debt crisis on ITN right now, while the story about the NBA lockout has no support whatsoever. Do us a favor, and at least base your superfluous, unsought commentary on facts. -- tariqabjotu21:07, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
No. This place has become bloody ridiculous. The biggest news stories in the world are being roundly ignored while idiotic sports and anything American (so long as it doesn't have the word "occupy" in it) is speedy-posted. It's pathetic.
DeterenceTalk22:48, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I don't think it's good to have a discussion like this here. Take it to the talkpage please. Although, if I can also be allowed to be a hypocrite for a second, I think your vigilance about this is good, Deterence, but your anger is mostly misplaced. I do think that sometimes editors fail to appreciate that there is a world outside the US, but see
this comment for an alternative view. Maybe the glass is half full. --
FormerIP (
talk)
23:29, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Right, although the World Series is on ITN now, there have been relatively few U.S. stories recently. Now is not the best time to claim ITN is U.S.-centric. -- tariqabjotu23:58, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose because: 1-There is no article about the Arab league proposal 2-We can not predict the future as to the merits of such a proposal, might as well be one of those initiatives that instantly die out, as often is the case of the Arab league's.
Tachfin (
talk)
07:09, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support I don't know why we're so cynical about "international agreements". Sure, some empty promises are made from time to time, but multinational agreements made with a supranational body like the Arab League tend to be pretty credible. It's a bit ridiculous to suggest that we wait for something "tangible" - what exactly are we waiting for? Should we go take a video of the tanks pulling out of the cities? JimSukwutput07:14, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Peace plans are meaningless if they don't result in any progress towards peace. Let me put it another way: after the UN Security Council passed
Resolution 1973 which (amongst other things) demanding an immediate ceasefire in Libya, Gaddafi's government announced that they would comply. We could have posted this on ITN. Had we done so we would have looked very stupid in light of subsequent events. Hut 8.518:39, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Even if the Syrian government practically broke its promises, it doesn't mean the peace agreement was not notable. For one thing, there will be much more enmity towards the Syrian government from other Arab states, and they might even support an international intervention if the Syrian government refuses to cooperate. Following your example, the Resolution 1973 was not effective in the short-term but it did form the legal basis of NATO intervention in Libya, which was obviously notable. JimSukwutput16:32, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Shenzhou 8 docks with Tiangong 1
Article:No article specified Blurb:
Shenzhou 8 performs the first automated docking of a Chinese spacecraft with space station module
Tiangong 1. (
Post) News source(s):spaceflightnow.com Article needs updating
Strong Support: That was just the first module. The successful docking is a major deal. How many other countries/space agencies have managed this? This is front page news at least here in India. But yeah, article needs to be updated.
Chocolate Horlicks (
talk)
20:09, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
My point is not that the story is not significant, but that we ought to limit the frequency with which we report events which are part of the same space mission. --
FormerIP (
talk)
20:39, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose Are we going to have a new ITN item every time the Chinese do something in space that the Americans and the Russians have already done countless times previously? And as FormerIP has pointed out, this is just a follow-up to an ITN item that was posted just last week.
DeterenceTalk20:35, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Quite a bit of POV pushing in that comment there... And i just posted that this isnt so much a follow up rather 2 different events. This is a huge first for a big ass nation. And an event only attempted by 2 countries ever before... --
Ashish-g5522:01, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
To answer Deterence, yes. The fact remains that only 2/3 space agencies have done this before. To take another example, when the Chinese put a rover on the surface of the Moon in 2013, it would be notable enough to be on ITN even though the Americans and Russians have done it several times before. Such achievements are not routine.
Chocolate Horlicks (
talk)
05:17, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I have absolutely no idea what POV I am supposed to be pushing here. And Chocolate Horlicks, this kind of event has been performed literally hundreds of times in the past. It is routine to the point where no media outlet would even consider mentioning such a mundane event if it were performed by the Russians or the Americans.
DeterenceTalk07:15, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Thats a big if. The entire point here is that it is not US or Russia doing this, but rather a new country is able to do something which only two countries before this could. This is THE story on the BBC Asia page. To apply your logic, if any new country tests a nuclear device, wouldnt it be notable? (Its been done several times before) If a new country puts a man in space, wouldnt it be notable? (Its been done several times before) If a new country develops an ICBM, wouldnt it be notable? (Its been done several times before). Or take the example I used before, when China puts a rover on the moon in 2013 or when India does it in 2014 .. are you saying these wont be notable? The reason for notability in all of these cases is that some technological achievements have thus far been possible only to a select countries. Another country being able to do it is major news. And I just checked, "The launch of space stations or major components thereof" is ITN/R, so I dont even know why we are discussing notability here.
Chocolate Horlicks (
talk)
07:57, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Chocolate Horlicks, a new country testing a nuclear device or developing an ICBM are notable events because the proliferation of WMDs and long-range delivery systems have serious political (and military) ramifications for us all. But, the automated docking of a spacecraft with space station module "by a new country" is about as notable as a Somali goat-herder re-inventing the wheel - all the Chinese had to do was send a few exchange students to
MIT to "discover" how it should be done. As for this being ITN/R, the "launch of space stations or major components thereof" event occurred last week, and was posted accordingly. At best, this is a mere update of that event.
DeterenceTalk08:28, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Someone back me up here because this really doesn't need this much deliberation. You have conveniently ignored the two examples of the man-in-space and rover-on-moon even though they are closer to the subject matter. You've equated the automated docking of a spacecraft to a Somali goat-herder re-inventing the wheel and claimed the only requirement for achieving this is apparently having exchange students at the MIT. Only
nine countries can even conduct a space launch and only 3 countries do a space docking. Dont the other countries have enough exchange students to send to MIT? This is a major component of the space station, so this satisfies ITN/R independently of the Tiangong 1 launch as well.
Chocolate Horlicks (
talk)
09:07, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Given the amount of disagreement here, ITN/R does not apply. That is for routine submissions that have minimal opposition. It can still be posted with traditional community consensus.
Mamyles (
talk)
13:12, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
@Deterence The POV i was referring to was ur view on us posting everything that china does that america/russia has done before. Just because a country has achieved something 3 decades ago doesnt make it non-notable for others. Especially given the long time-gap between them and the difficulty level. POV may not be correct term but it felt like that given the language style you used. --
Ashish-g5521:28, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose a pointy technical achievement that would interest the specialists only. Furthermore, there is no article about the automated docking process, which indicates that it is not of general notability. This is better suited for DYK.
Tachfin (
talk)
07:17, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose - First automated docking of a chinese spacecraft is not ITN material. While I congratulate China on the milestone, their space program was recently featured and this was first done decades ago.
Mamyles (
talk)
11:47, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Agree. Would support if there was a decent article or at least some detailed coverage in some article or other (ie more than a few additional sentences in
Algiers). --
FormerIP (
talk)
18:28, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
CommentAs others have noted, we can't really support this without an article to support. A quality article is probably worth supporting, especially given the dearth of (positive) ITN items from Africa. Update: the suggestion that this nomination be forwarded to DYK seems sensible.
DeterenceTalk20:33, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment: Without an article, I can't say either support or oppose, but I personally think an item like this is better suited for DYK. Plus there's a practically written hook, in that the metro took 28 years to build. SpencerT♦C23:09, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Support - there is actually an article, now linked in the blurb. Notable event, as this might be the most important infrastructure project in the history of a major capital.
Pantherskin (
talk)
05:45, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment They only completed one line of it (9 km), this event might be of regional notability but on the world scale I doubt it is. There is nothing unusual about this kind of projects taking a long time to complete in third world countries, there has been similar events in neighboring countries (Tramway in
Rabat-
Salé, Morocco) and weren't covered in ITN, and rightfully so I believe. Would make a good DYK though.
Tachfin (
talk)
07:30, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
support when updated, its a first there and 2nd in africa and took eons to make. some big deal...infrastructure promises can alleviate a possible algerian protest too..
Lihaas (
talk)
08:30, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose, sadly. Although I think that the news is significant enough regionally to justify posting, the article quality is inadequate. The article sports an "outdated" tag (presumably because the opening is mentioned only in the lead), is in urgent need of copyediting and lacks clear sourcing for most of its content. I would favor posting if these issues were at least partially addressed. -- Black Falcon(
talk)15:56, 6 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose I dislike the whole comparison the ITNR topics generally, as if to suggest consensus can be inherited from one subject to another by association. In this case I don't even feel it particularly appropriate: there is a world of difference on the English Wikipedia between English literature awards and French ones - the latter are clearly of less interest to the majority of or readership.
Crispmuncher (
talk)
17:55, 4 November 2011 (UTC).reply
Nominator's comments: Both articles need updating at this stage. The Assange saga is clearly notable for its significant implications for the transparency of government, government accountability and the rights of free individuals to engage in whistle-blowing.
DeterenceTalk10:26, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I've edited the nomination. If you think the remainder of the nomination if POV-pushing then I respectfully suggest that you're pushing a POV of your own.
DeterenceTalk11:10, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose This is not news. Not from the start, the end, or anywhere in the middle. It certainly is not fit for the front page, where we tend to add the 'start' or the final conclusion of an event. This is just a legal hurdle, certanily not something worth the media hubris
doktorbwordsdeeds11:25, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose as others have said, it's simply another (not particularly interesting) chapter in an ongoing event. Lots more interesting things going on in the world. --
Cameron Scott (
talk)
11:27, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose now and for all. Since when did low-profile criminal deportations become ITN-worthy? Assange has received lots of attention regarding his public activities at WikiLeaks, but the quality of his and her companions' intimate undertakings in the country of Sweden are better left for the yellow press than the front page of an encyclopedia, as are the speculative conspiracy theories about the trial. --
hydrox (
talk)
11:30, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose, and agreed with Mkativerata's comments on the nomination. The audacity it takes to suggest a conspiracy theory in a nomination and then claim that you have NPOV is incredible. JimSukwutput07:08, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The theory that Assange was targeted with sexual assault allegations only because of his activities in Wikileaks. What else could you mean by "significant implications for.. rights of free individuals to engage in whistle-blowing"? I'm not saying that the theory is false. I haven't encountered significant evidence either way and frankly haven't been bothered to find out. But your support of this nomination based on this theory and then proceeding to claim that you're being neutral seems to me simply hypocritical. JimSukwutput16:29, 4 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Asylum seekers boat disaster
Article:No article specified Blurb: No blurb specified (
Post) Credits:
Nominator's comments: Another one has sank off the coast of Australia. Up to 27 are believed to have drowned; I guess the death toll will be confirmed either today or tomorrow. Anyone up for starting an article? --Nightw00:14, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment At this stage, this story seems to have barely registered with the media, and almost all of that is Australian media. I don't mean to sound callous, but these journeys, and such drownings, have become somewhat routine in recent years. Parallels can be seen with Cuban/Haitian/etc refugees who regularly drown on their way to Florida.
DeterenceTalk01:52, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
The United Kingdom
Office for National Statistics releases GDP figures indicating growth of 0.5% compared to a 0.1% figure in the previous quarter.
(BBC)
At least seven people are killed and 200 injured following an explosion caused by two trucks carrying explosives crashing in
Fuquan City in
China's
Guizhou Province.
(CNN)
China launches the unmanned
Shenzhou 8 spacecraft, intending to robotically dock it with the orbiting
Tiangong 1space station module. If successful, the mission will mark China's first orbital docking, and will be a major milestone in its efforts to construct a
full-scale space station.
(BBC)
obvious with the ITNR bit if and when updated. It was also agreed earlier when the nom was chosen but decided to postpone till he assumed office.
Lihaas (
talk)
08:32, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Today is supposedly the start of the NBA season but since the lockout is ongoing it won't. It's the 2nd time the regular start of the season is not held due to a labor dispute. –HTD12:06, 1 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose. Similar to the Serie A strike that delayed it's season, and likely not ITNish. As with above, if the season should be canceled, I'd view it as a different story.
Resolute14:46, 1 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment This is... surprising. I think you all are underestimating the significance of this. The NBA is essentially the world's premier basketball league, with the big bucks that go with the status. This is unlike, for example, Qantas, which is one of many national airlines. This is unlike, for example, the NFL lockout, which had no effect on regular-season games. I don't necessarily think this should go on ITN now, but I do think this should be on ITN at some point, even if the entire season isn't cancelled. -- tariqabjotu21:33, 1 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Yeah, I was likening it to the Qantas thing as well, and I think given we posted that we should logically post this too. It's obviously going to affect people. Haven't a clue what the blurb would be though. Nightw21:50, 1 November 2011 (UTC)reply
For what it's worth, I opposed the ITN posting about the Qantas lock-out for that very reason - it was just routine industrial action affecting one airline, and lasted about 5 minutes. Evidently, airplanes are one of those triggers that get people extra excited around here.
DeterenceTalk22:41, 1 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I well remember the NHL lockout in 04-05. A league such as the NHL or the NBA cancelling a season outright is definitely a major story. The NBA postponing the start of the season is on a level with Serie A postponing the start of its season due to a players strike. Strikes and lockouts happen. Seasons get shortened as a result. It has happened easily a dozen times or more in North America's big four leagues alone over the last three decades or so. Something to post if ITN is having a slow news day, perhaps...
Resolute23:14, 1 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Yeah, but the cancellation of an entire season is extremely rare. That may be the only time in history that that has ever occurred, certainly for a league at that level in its sport. The standards for putting up a story about a sports labor dispute are being placed astronomically high. That a lockout forces the delay of a season -- and particularly one like the NBA, which, unlike Serie A, is the single most prominent league in its sport -- is rare enough, and newsworthy enough, as it is. -- tariqabjotu01:00, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I disagree, and being one of the biggest hockey geeks on Wikipedia, would disagree for the NHL as well. Another aspect of this is that there isn't anything "breaking" about this news. The NBA has been cancelling games every couple weeks for over a month now. Nothing has changed in the situation, we've merely passed an arbitrary date.
Resolute14:33, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Um, do you realize you're posting below a comment that includes the phrase "I don't necessarily think this should go on ITN now..." My issue is that some people, and seemingly yourself included, think this should only stand a chance of going on ITN if the entire season is cancelled. I'm indifferent about whether this goes on ITN now or later, but it should be on ITN eventually. -- tariqabjotu15:55, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Fair enough. I did lose track of the first comments in this thread. Other than a cancellation of the season, the only other really logical point to post would be if there is a resolution to the lockout. I'll admit to being on the fence over that, but since it is only hypothetical at this point, there is time to consider it.
Resolute17:03, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose US-centric non-story about a minority sport. Not of interest to world-view audience. No notable personalities who would feature in a news story in their own right.
doktorbwordsdeeds22:24, 1 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I understand your point, but it's a bit harsh to call basketball a "minority sport". Quoting from the
BBC, basketball is the "world's second most popular sport, played in more than 200 countries, and a multi-billion dollar industry".
Jenks24 (
talk)
23:01, 1 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose per Doktorbuk. The only people who will care about this are the people who follow this ridiculous game, and we've had way too much sport in ITN as it is.
DeterenceTalk22:41, 1 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment: Seriously, the above two opposes are about as baseless as you can get, mostly per Jenks24. Deterence, I give you credit for your reasoning that there's too much sport on ITN (to be honest, I can halfway empathize with that sentiment), but I feel it's seriously undermined by the flagrant opposition to the sport itself more than the story. In my opinion, this story is not ITN material yet, but certainly will be if the entire season is cancelled.
Ks0stm(
T•
C•
G•
E)23:23, 1 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I, too, would support an ITN nomination if the entire season is cancelled. But, I'm not going to support an ITN posting about routine industrial action, be it in the basketball industry or the airline industry.
DeterenceTalk02:00, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Wait Whilst I think that a lockout in the most important competition in a globally-popular sport is indeed notable, and deserves a slot on ITN, is now really the best moment to do so? If it does get resolved before the end of the season, that would be a much better time for posting. And if it rumbles on so long that the whole season is cancelled, that too would be a more fitting moment.
Modest Geniustalk10:58, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I also agree with Tariqabjotu that the NBA lockout deserves a ITN mention, either when it finishes and some games are saved or if the NBA season gets canceled, or both the season gets canceled and when the lockout ends. A lockout in the most significant league of one of the world's most significant sports has an economic and social impact towards the game themselves. Now is not the time to post though, I'll agree, but this isn't a U.S centric sport, it has the same consequence if the English Premier League ever goes on a lockout.
Secretaccount06:06, 3 November 2011 (UTC)reply