This page is an archive. Do not edit the contents of this page. Please direct any additional comments to the current main page. |
Done
I think Hotel Mocambo (1944) should be added to Miss Gloria DeHaven's filmography in the relevant Wikipedia article (English language). As of July 30, 2012, it's missing. Too bad... Brumon — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brumon ( talk • contribs) 10:34, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
An unsigned user keeps restoring a lengthy, unsourced paragraph that violates WP:BLP. I've deleted the paragraph several times, but he keeps restoring it. I might suggest that the IP numbers that he uses (there've been at least two) be blocked from editing this article.
He also repeatedly restores a similar paragraph in Southern Railway of Vancouver Island.
n2xjk ( talk) 21:08, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Paloma Faith ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Apologies if this is the wrong place, but I think something needs to be set in stone regarding Paloma Faith's birth year. It appears that she was born in 1981, but her birth year has been given as 1985 instead. Most sources say she is 26/27 (depending on how recent the article is, her birthday was last week), but so far there are no reliable sources to back up the fact she was born in 1981 and is 31. This issue has come up a few times on her article's talk page and the date in the article has also been changed a few times, but with no reliable source provided. I've come here for some advice on what to do. Do we add both years to the article, remove the year altogether (the day and month are correct) or something else entirely? - JuneGloom Talk 18:22, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
Even if the birth register shows someone of the right name born in 1981, there is still the issue of identifying that person as the one the article is about. Even unusual-looking names can be shared by more than one person. This is the sort of problem that makes us cautious about using primary sources. If I understand the talk page, this person claims to be younger. If so, it is a BLP issue as well as a primary source issue. Without a "reliable secondary source" in support, I don't think it is permissible to rely on our own interpretation of a primary source to "prove" that someone is lying. Zero talk 04:30, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
Adrian Năstase ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Sleeper account Elysander ( talk · contribs) has suddenly awaken today (after 2 years) and started adding defamatory claims (in subpar English) on the article about former Romanian prime-minister Adrian Năstase diff 1, diff 2, diff 3. Anonimu ( talk) 17:54, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
There is NO evidence that Nastase's suicide attempt took place. In the Austrian, Swiss and German Press ( print and online) the rising doubts regarding this attempt are very well documented and recherched:
Krone [1] - Die Presse [2] - NZZ NeueZürcherZeitung [3] - Welt [4] - Spiegel Online [5] and many more sources ....
Quote Spiegel Online: "Um der Haft zu entgehen, inszenierte Nastase einen theatralischen Selbstmordversuch, was ihm jedoch nur einige Tage Aufschub verschaffte - inzwischen sitzt er im Gefängnis." To escape the arrest, Nastase staged a theatrical suicide attempt, which gave him only a few days' delay - now he is in prison' [6] - Elysander ( talk) 22:18, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
Robert Coates (politician) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
"Mr.Coats left behind top secret North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) documents 'War Orders' that was in his possession. The bar manager of Tiffany's brought the document to Military Police officer Sgt. Faubert's attention, who also wrote the unusual incident report." Aside from misspellings and poor writing, this is unsourced, possibly defamatory and most likely false. I was in Lahr at the time. I am a broadcast journalist and I covered the story of Bob Coates and Tiffany's for CBC Radio Montreal. I followed the mini-scandal while it developed and never once saw any reference to, nor heard any speculation about, any documents that Coates "left behind." Nor have I been able to come up with any independent source for this piece of information (that wasn't just copy/pasted from Wikipedia). It doesn't make any sense anyway. Who would bring confidential papers with him to a strip bar... and leave them behind? The "Sgt. Faubert" mentioned in the article lacks a surname. Who was the manager of Tiffany's that was cited? This article in the Montreal Gazette is how I remember the Coates scandal: http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1946&dat=19850214&id=XTcjAAAAIBAJ&sjid=tqUFAAAAIBAJ&pg=1630,1659504 Coates resigned because he placed himself in a compromising situation, not because he left some supposed documents in a strip bar. Regards, Bill Peterson in Berlin (reply to (Redacted)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.103.76.28 ( talk) 14:31, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Eric Hughes (film producer) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
This person is not legitimate to be on wikipedia. This appears to be a vanity article. There are little to no third party sources. This has happened before when he used the name Eric B. Hughes and he was deleted because of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boomboxboombox ( talk • contribs) 21:20, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Eric Hughes (film producer) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)— Preceding unsigned comment added by Boomboxboombox ( talk • contribs) 21:26, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
John Leonard called an exceptional performance by Chinese swimmer, Ye Shiwen, "disturbing" and drew parallels with Michelle Smith, who was banned for drug use. These suggestions were widely reported in the media. 1, 2, 3
Spearhead's placed a BLP on the dashboard, link's here. I can't remove this, so I'm requesting it be removed. Thanks "....We are all Kosh...." <-Babylon-5-> 18:28, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
Candy Lightner ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
SPA user talk:CDoddridge keeps adding a great deal of essaylike content at Candy Lightner, as well as removing all sources and damaging the article structure. I am not going to revert this again, but the article is wounded at the moment. I expect to wait until this individual wanders off to damage some other article before working on the Lightner article any further. Whatever any interested editor decides to do, please don't come to my talk page. I am unfriendly. The article talk page will suffice, I am sure. User talk:Unfriend12 18:42, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
Douglas Youvan ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Can some experienced editors please take a look at this article and the talk page? There seems to be a very slow back-and-forth discussion using words like libel, and that negative aspects of the article are "hurting" fundraising efforts. With unsigned comments, and discussion formatted in such a way as I am unsure who is responding to what point, it's all rather beyond me. Full disclosure: I nom'd the article for deletion due to NOTE and PROF, and even added a /ref after the fact provided by a person commenting on the woefully sparse AFD discussion. But I've also been told in that same discussion that one factor that makes this person notable ( H-index) cannot (or should not) be used as a reference, which is...well...just beyond my experience. The article and its editing history can be easily seen for what it is...and the talk page is relatively short. The AFD discussion is obviously linked from there as well. So anyone willing to take a look should easily find what they need. I don't feel the need to link to a bunch of diffs here...it's all there in short form...but someone more experienced might take a look , b/c it's a little beyond me, and there are some "legal" insinuations being tossed about. Thanks, Ditch ∝ 04:27, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
Marion Kozak ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Marion Kozak ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Bio created today by User:IZAK - the bio has previously (not this one but historic versions) been deleted twice. Although she is mentioned in articles I don't think she is notable for anything specific - the mother of two notable people and the wife of a notable person and coming from a Polish town were atrocities were committed (this appears coat-racked onto her life story) - its a life story about her not the atrocity? She was seven or eight when she emigrated/fled to Belgium) all seem to be added in bloating the fact that there is nothing actually notable about her - just my first thought on reading the article - could someone else have a look and see what you think - there are also a few opinionated comments/flourishes in the reading also and the citations with multiple uses need sorting out to see the wood from the trees - thanks - Youreally can 04:33, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
Hooman Majd ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) A couple of editors are trying to insert right-wing/neo-con libelous statements against a notable Iranian-American scholar, essentially calling him an agent of the Iranian regime, into the lead of his article. [7] [8] Hooman Majd is an independent mainstream commentator and a US citizen, who regularly appears on ABC, CNN and NBC news as an expert on Iran. [9] The lead is no place for libelous statements/subjective opinions about the subject, and a clear violation of WP:BLP. This is like putting Michele Bachmann's accusations against Huma Abedin, into the lead of her article as a fact. I am hoping a few more people would keep an eye on this article. As a last resort, I may have to notify the subject of this article, to file a complaint with Wikipedia office. Kurdo777 ( talk) 05:53, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
A couple of editors have been trying to insert what appears to be libelous statements from a right-wing/neo-con editorial against a notable Iranian-American scholar, essentially calling him an agent of the Iranian regime, into the lead of his article Hooman Majd. [10] [11] These are very serious accusations. Hooman Majd is an independent mainstream commentator and a US citizen, who regularly appears on ABC, CNN and NBC news as an expert on Iran. [12] This is like putting Michele Bachmann's accusations against Huma Abedin, into the lead of her article as a fact. Such material, which is basically subjective gossip/opinion as oppose to an objective fact, accusing a living person of being an agent of another government, does not belong in a living person's article, let alone the lead, even if they're sourced. I can find a sourced derogatory statements about many public officials in editorials by their opponents, it doesn't mean that I can go and dump it into the lead of their Wikipedia article. Now I'm puzzled as to what can be done about this. I tried to remove the libelous material, but I was reverted three times. I wanted to notify the subject of this article, to file a complaint with Wikipedia office, but I was given a warning for legal threats, which I believe is baseless, as it's the right of the subject to know what is being said about him, on his Wikipedia article, which might have real-life consequences for him. I was hoping for input from uninvolved administrators. What's the best course of action to take here? Can the subject be notified or not? Can an administrator intervene here to remove the possibly libelous material? Kurdo777 ( talk) 07:51, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
Stuff in the green box moved here from WP:AN/I. -- Hoary ( talk) 09:31, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
Jason Russell ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
This report is regarding Jason Russell, a low-notability filmmaker whose best claim to notability appears to be involvement in the Kony 2012 project. Russell momentarily made tabloid headlines just subsequent to around the time the Kony film went viral, when he had a meltdown of some sort and got himself arrested for some type (reports vary) of public lewd behavior. Because the lewdness apparently involved public nudity, the story was picked up by TMZ.
The BLP problem we have is the clear guidance given by WP:NPF. This sort of thing is not Wikipedia-worthy material in the case of a low-notability person.
People who are relatively unknown [edit]
Policy shortcut: WP:NPF
Wikipedia contains biographical material on people who, while notable enough for an entry, are not generally well known. In such cases, exercise restraint and include only material relevant to their notability, focusing on high quality secondary sources. Material published by the subject may be used, but with caution; see above. Material that may adversely affect a person's reputation should be treated with special care; in many jurisdictions, repeating a defamatory claim is actionable, and there is additional protection for subjects who are not public figures.
(emphasis from the original)
We can find sufficient notability for Russell's article in his filmmaking - the Kony 2012 project was a fairly big deal that reached many, many eyeballs around the world. We do NOT find Wikipedia-worthy notability in being picked up by the police for public nudity, unless the person is an A-list celebrity or a national-level politician. Therefore, it is clearly not compliant with our BLP policy to include this material in the article.
Other editors have proposed compromise solutions that include removing mention of the nudity and only mentioning the breakdown. The problem with that is, again, notability. We don't mention being picked up by the police in any BLP, unless it is an A-list public figure (which have different standards).
This matter has been brought to N/BLP two times in the past, and it appears to have been a split - having been decided one way on the first occasion and (maybe) another way the second time (it's hard to tell from looking at the discussion, I don't see where there was an especially solid consensus). We need a solid decision here to stave off the persistent recurring edit-warring that has plagued this article for much of its history. Belchfire- TALK 06:52, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
It's been explained to Silver seren and Collect many times but for some reason they are using the same arguments. I don't want to use sensational media/accusations. The nudity is a proven fact from several videos that has many reliable news sources that reported that. There's nothing sensational about it. Regarding the police statement, that should be included, however it keeps getting removed. The police statement is not sensational. Since the incident needs to be mentioned, we are not doing the reader justice by giving them an incomplete overview of what happened. Acoma Magic ( talk) 15:12, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Wrong Chase Daniels.
The Chase Daniels listed as someone from Kentucky is erroneous. The Chase Daniels from Kentucky is female and her real name is Tamaro Tatum (Chase Daniels was her radio name ). Also, she has had a more prestigious career, having won broadcasting awards, worked at more top-rated and diverse formats and has not only worked in Atlanta but also on the national level at XM (now SiriusXM). She also retired from radio in 2008.
The Chase Daniels listed on this site is from Jacksonville, FL, and has only worked in Florida and Atlanta.
The Chase Daniels from Kentucky had a Wiki page but it must have been erased and taken over by the other Chase Daniels from Florida ...yet it is still linked to the Kentucky page.
Please correct this error. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.18.150.53 ( talk) 12:20, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Todd Palin ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
There is an edit war going on right now about an alleged extramarital affair, which is already shaping up to be a prime candidate for WP:LAME. There are obviously plenty of people watching the article already, but something tells me it could use more. I'm suspicious of the quality of the sources used to advance this claim. I'm equally suspicious that some of the editors who are continuing to revert this addition have shown their biases before. RadioKAOS ( talk) 19:40, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
Yup. Wikipedia really does have a Category:Ethnically nepotistic football clubs - though fortunately with only 4 'members'. Just how many policies does this appear to violate? I suspect the number of policies it doesn't violate is shorter. Anyway, it clearly violates WP:BLP for a start. Can someone with a strong stomach and experience of how one deletes categories please step in to remove it from our sight? AndyTheGrump ( talk) 14:10, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
Nominated for deletion. -- GRuban ( talk) 18:44, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
Stephen M. Cohen ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Sex.com ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
This has been added to this BLP by UserScottjduffy, (his first two edits since eighteen months) and copy pasted to the Sex.com article -
Since then, Cohen has continued to avoid paying the $67 million judgement, and claims poverty. Courts have found in Kremen's favor several times since 2006, with evidence that seven individuals and twelve companies were used to help Cohen hide the money, including his brother, his daughter, his ex-wife and also his former lawyer. A court case against his brother is ongoing.
that is an assertion regarding Cohen, certainly not one we have already sourced.— Ryulong ( 竜龙) 00:53, 3 August 2012 (UTC)Since then, Cohen has continued to avoid paying the $67 million judgement, and claims poverty. Courts have found in Kremen's favor several times since 2006, with evidence that seven individuals and twelve companies were used to help Cohen hide the money, including his brother, his daughter, his ex-wife and also his former lawyer. A court case against his brother is ongoing.
I haven't looked at this article in detail or at the specific allegations, but YRC is right about BLPPRIMARY:
Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person. ... Where primary-source material has been discussed by a reliable secondary source, it may be acceptable to rely on it to augment the secondary source ...
The reason we require reliable secondary sources is to make sure Wikipedians don't collect negative material from courts that no one else deems worthy of publication (e.g. allegations made during a divorce, and similar). SlimVirgin (talk) 03:57, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
Wording changed per NPOV. Other individuals identified (wife etc.) did not need to be here - the BLP is about the single person. Collect ( talk) 17:49, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
We have a BLP problem and an edit war on this article. Wmbowersatty ( talk · contribs), a new editor, is trying to turn the article into a promotional piece claiming personal knowledge of the subject. I've reverted twice (the second time after trimming the article and adding references), and one other editor reverted. Your help is appreciated. Drmies ( talk) 14:07, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
Hello, I would like to bring editors' attention to a serious issue in the article for John Sullivan (Oklahoma). Information has been added to this article that appears to violate Wikipedia's guidelines for biographical articles. Specifically, a section has been created titled "Criminal record", which appears in the contents list of the article. The section details allegations made about the arrest record of the Representative, made by a former opponent. It also includes information published by the media regarding his arrest record. While I understand that his arrest record is notable because it was subject to media attention during his campaigns in 2004 and onwards, after his opponent made statements about it, however I do not think that 20-year-old arrests should require their own section in his biographical article. Nor do I think that the details of each arrest are necessary here. I see that WP:BLPCRIME notes that for "relatively unknown" people criminal acts should only be included if there was a conviction, should not a similar guideline apply for more well-known individuals if the events were a long time ago, and only notable because of allegations by a political opponent? In this case, the Representative was never convicted of a crime, so surely the section should not be called "Criminal record". At the least, I think it would help to move this information out of the "Personal life" section and remove or change the section heading. I've brought this issue here, rather than removing or changing the information, since I work for Representative Sullivan. In the interests of openness, I have also placed a similar message on the article's "Talk" page. I would appreciate if editors here could provide a unbiased review of this section and make such changes as are necessary. Thank you in advance. -- EdwardDC ( talk) 16:34, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
I was just about to unwatch this page and noticed this thread. Witness Lyman Hoffman, wherein someone decided that a conviction for drunken driving was "more encyclopedic" than the fact that he's currently among the five longest-serving members in the history of the Alaska Legislature. The user who added that information appears to have added similar information regarding a number of other politicians. In Hoffman's instance, there was a conviction (and while an incumbent officeholder), and this was reported by a RS (radio station KINY's news department). Still, I find it undue weight, but that will probably depend upon me to do something about it, along with the hundreds of other articles needing attention and languishing in the queue. RadioKAOS ( talk) 21:24, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
I have encountered a problem regarding a BLP, but it is very sensitive and I would rather not cause a Streisand effect. Where can I resolve this? -- Jprg1966 (talk) 17:15, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
Ed Miliband ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
The BLP is a WP:GA - and has been altered to describe him as a Non observant Jew - without discussion or any additional reliable citations - Youreally can 22:20, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
(Undent)To say that someone is not observant is not quite an insult, but it's very close. Check out what the thesaurus says about "inobservance":
“ | absentmindedness, carelessness, default, delinquency, dereliction, disconformity, disregard, disregardfulness, distraction, failure, flightiness, flippancy, frivolousness, giddiness, heedlessness, inadvertence, inadvertency, inattention, inattentiveness, inconsideration, incuriosity, indifference, laxity, levity, lightmindedness, neglect, negligence, nonadherence, noncompliance, nonconformance, nonconformity, nonfeasance, nonfulfillment, nonobservance, nonperformance, obliviousness, omission, oversight, regardlessness, shallowness, slight, superficiality, thoughtlessness, unalertness, unawareness, unconsciousness, unheedfulness, unintentiveness, unmindfulness, unobservance, unwariness, unwatchfulness | ” |
Likewise, the Merriam-Webster Dictionary says that being observant means to be "careful in observing (as rites, laws, or customs)". The American Heritage Dictionary says that you're observant if you're "Diligent in observing a law, custom, duty, or principle", whereas inobservance is defined as "Lack of heed or attention; disregard." It's much more neutral to say a person is not religious than to say they're not observant (the latter connotes a sloppy or lazy religiosity). 108.18.174.123 ( talk) 10:04, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
Thomas Sowell ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
There seems to be an ongoing dispute over whether to include an article written by the subject about race and other things and also a blog entry from the MMfA by an un named staff writer. This has nothing to do with RS and everything to do with undue weight and if the material is trivial. Could uninvolved eyes please chime in on the talk page where it is discussed in a few sections now. Thank you, -- Mollskman ( talk) 14:01, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
Mollskman said up front that "This has nothing to do with RS and everything to do with undue weight and if the material is trivial" so any talk about the source being unreliable is just a distraction. I'd like to hear someone explain why they believe this is a BLP violation as opposed to a minor content dispute. Still-24-45-42-125 ( talk) 00:44, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
The source is grossly misused - and makes a claim not actually present in the editorial. When I sought to use the actual words in the editorial, I was summarily reverted. Also the claim that some backed the "comparison" is inapt as no such direct "comparison" is in the editorial. The closest the editorial comes is that it says the Reichstag gave Hitler excessive powers, but it does not say in any language that Obama is like Hitler. Nor did Palin say "Obama is like Hitler" - she said that the BP fund was unconstitutional. Such political silly season edits are beneath contempt. Cheers.
Collect (
talk) 12:43, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
If the editorial has not attracted any notice outside the usual partisan outlets, then it probably isn't notable enough for mention in Sowell's biography. It is arguably relevant to describe Sowell's role as a sometimes rhetorically extreme partisan polemicist, but this particular instance it seems like the editorial in question hasn't really attracted much notice outside the insulated partisan blogosphere.
I'm not especially comfortable using Media Matters (or any such partisan website) as a source in a BLP, either. MastCell Talk 16:24, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
I agree that there's a sourcing issue if all we have is MMfA. However, there are other sources to show notability:
I could go on. Do I need to? Still-24-45-42-125 ( talk) 06:41, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
In the first dispute resolution:
*Acceptible Use MMfA is clearly an organization with a political slant. However, that does not mean that their opinion cannot be quoted in a Wikipedia article. Political-based articles routinely cite sources which have a political stance (e.g., NRA, PETA, NAACP). There have been at least 25 reliable source discussions about MMfA, and the general conclusion of the RS forums is that the organization cannot be used as a source of news, but that their opinion can be cited. The text cited above makes it clear that MMfA is a liberal organization, and that the comment in question is their opinion. The actual article comparing Obama's actions to Hitler's is referenced in Investor's Business Daily, which is a reliable source of news, and the paragraph also gives the opinion of two people supporting Sowell's publication of the article, thus ensuring the commentary is NPOV. Based on this, inclusion of MMfA is acceptible. Debbie W. 03:39, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
And in the second one.
This discussion has gone WAY off track. The dispute resolution does not address conduct matters - and this discussion has been very unproductive. If a discussion has taken place regarding the use of a source on the RSN and a clear result was not achieved, you can ask for more input with a community RFC. Yelling at each other is not the way to resolve this. From the discussion here, it appears that the reliability of a the MMfA source has been confirmed - so the key here is attributing the point of view to MMfA - you cannot exclude a significant viewpoint from an article just because you don't like it. That's not how Wikipedia works, and is a serious conduct matter. I suggest that the discussed material be included as long as it is attributed to MMfA, and everyone here gets on with their lives and does something more productive. Steven Zhang 02:37, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
CartoonDiablo ( talk) 06:58, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
The claim is that anything which is an "implicit comparison" should be described as a "comparison" even when people reading the column do not see the comparison (20/20 eyesight for reading-beween-the-lines is needed to see the "comparison." Then people are stated to endorse the "comparison" when they only state they endorse the column. Lastly, one of the sources used is Gohmert Endorses Sowell's Hitler Comparison an op-ed blog post titled Gohmert Endorses Sowell's Hitler Comparison used to state that title as a factual claim when it is obviously the opinion of the writer and hence is improperly used for a "fact claim" under WP:BLP. [21] shows a blanket reversion of my attempt at a reasonably NPOV claim - but the ones who read-between-the-lines seem determined to paint Palin, Sowell et al with the "He said the Hitler word in the same column as Obama therefore he is evil" brush <g>. BLPs are supposed to use claims directly supported by factual sources, not to make opinions into facts. Collect ( talk) 13:55, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
Scjessey has now asserted that this discussion either does not exist, or that it backs his edit [25] (edit summary: Reverted 1 edit by Collect (talk): Rv edit based on misleading edit summary. using TW) and his comment on my UT page: No such discussion exists on BLP/N, so basically you are using lies to push your POV.
I rather think this discussion exists here, and that it does not back his edit which makes the "fact" statement that Sowell "has been criticized for various remarks such as a comparison he made between President Barack Obama and Adolf Hitler " Will others please so inform him? Cheers. Collect ( talk) 12:21, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
Richard Quest ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Richard Quest is a very well known public person. He is a high profile CNN presenter.
In 2008 Mr Quest was arrested in Central Park New York, (Redacted). He was in the park outside the hours of curfew for the park. The matter was reported in the mainstream media (but not CNN).
I believe this item of information to be in the public interest, and therefore not defamatory. Also, a critical defense to defamation is that the reported item be true, and this event clearly is true. Also, Mr. Quest is a public figure, therefore items such as this are allowed to be disseminated in respect of him.
On Tuesday 31 July, I edited the Wikipedia entry for Mr Quest, so that it includes this information. The new entry was done is a way which followed Wikipedia guidelines. It included a link to a reputable newspaper report of the incident.
However, soon after this, another user had removed the reference to Mr Quest's arrest.
I believe that not allowing this item to appear on Wikipedia amounts to censorship, and I question the motives of a person wishing to act in this way.
Clearly, CNN does not want this information appearing in relation to such a prominent figure in their organization. However, other prominent news organizations have been able to print this, including Australia's Sydney Morning Herald. Australia has well developed defamation laws, however the Sydney Morning Herald has been able to report this for the past 4 years.
If anyone else has an opinion on this I would welcome their thoughts.
Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dleau ( talk • contribs) 07:52, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
In reply to comments that Richard Quest's biography should not contain any details of his arrest in New York and possession of methamphetamine, I draw your attention to the wikipedia entry of Australian journalist Peter Lloyd. Peter Lloyd was arrested in Singapore for possession of a "small" amount of the drug "ice", which is methamphetamine. He was subsequently convicted in a Singapore court for such possession. This arrest and conviction is clearly indicated in Peter Lloyd's wikipedia page. Did Peter Lloyd do anything more serious than Richard Quest? One (Lloyd) was arrested in a country which has a very low tolerance towards drug possession (Singapore) with a "small" amount of methamphetamine, but because of that country's stance on drugs, this arrest must appear on his wikipedia entry. Another (Quest) is arrested in possession of the same thing (a "small" amount of methamphetamine) but since the charges relating to such possession are dropped pending his participation in a rehabilitation scheme, that fact must not appear on his wikipedia entry. To me, this unfair for Peter Lloyd. Also there is another more sinister issue involved here. Richard Quest is a highly paid reporter for a major news provider (CNN). Interestingly, I have not been able to find any mention of this issue on any CNN site. The fact that this is NOT widely reported, as required by wikipedia rules, stems from the very fact that the subject is a highly visible member of such major news organisation. Such news organisations are VERY concerned about their outward appearance, as they need to maintain a clean image to protect their massive advertising revenues. Their massive advertising revenues allow them to allocate substantial funds to maintaining such clean image. Wikipedia does have to be very careful in what it writes about living persons, however if such living person is a member of the very sector (news sector/media) that is charged with reporting such matters, and the organisation for which such living person works represents a major segment of news reportage, and chooses not to report any infarction by such person... reportage will be substantially diminished, and the test for wikipedia inclusion will not be met (that the matter be widely reported). The net result? Money caused the truth to be hidden. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dleau ( talk • contribs) 09:28, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
WP:BLP does not prevent mention of arrests for crimes - in the case at point the issue becomes: "Was the arrest notable in the life of the person?" and "Is the arrest relevant in any way to the life of the person?".
[27] is from
The New York Times. I consider that newspaper to be a "newspaper of record" for such material, and is not a tabloid in any manner. It does not indicate a "lack of reporting." The NYT describes him as " a high-profile correspondent for CNN International, known for feature reports and profiles. CNN calls Mr. Quest, who is British, one of the network’s 'most instantly recognizable members.' " Thus his notability is pretty well-established per the NYT. The claim shold note if there was any conviction, but the arest is clearly notable and RS sourceable. Cheers.
Collect (
talk) 10:38, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
[28] Reuters indicates " New York judge ordered CNN reporter Richard Quest to undergo six months of counseling on Friday after Quest was arrested in Central Park for possession of a controlled substance, his lawyer said" which is clearly about as NPOV as one could wish.
Collect (
talk) 10:41, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
In April 2008, Quest was stopped by police at 3:40am in Central Park, New York City, and after questioning, admitted to be in possession of a small quantity of a controlled substance: crystal methamphetamine. [1] Quest agreed to undergo 6 months of drug counseling. [2]
Note: Editors keep re-adding him to
List of LGBT Jews which I consider a violation of BLPCAT at a minimum. Other eyes welcomed.
Collect (
talk) 20:12, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
Chavis Carter ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Hi. I'm posting this here to seek guidance on the inclusion of this article - although the guy is actually dead, apparently from a suicide while in a police vehicle, there are concerns on the BLP policy about the inclusion, since it's concerning a very recent death, and there is something about not including material like this, to prevent distress to relatives, etc. I am not quite sure about a way round this, but in my own opinion, the material is worthy of CSD, although not entirely sure how. Any thoughts or suggestions welcome. BarkingFish 19:06, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
Ingo Haar ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
I recently removed a posting on the biography of Ingo Haar [32] that is a falsehood and in plain English a blatant POV push. The false posting was restored again by another user who could very well be a sock. Users over in German Wikipedia may be able to help us to verify the information in this biography. I really want to avoid an edit war and request your review of this matter. -- Woogie10w ( talk) 14:31, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
I Just reversved a falsehood and in plain English a blatant POV push on the biography of Ingo Haar for the third time. Please review. -- Woogie10w ( talk) 11:08, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
I have notified the three editors who made these edits of the posting here. I have a copy of the text of the article by Haar that was misrepresented.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 11:32, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
Aga Khan IV ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) The section on marriages, divorces and children is rife with references which are from tabloid newspapers and therefore may not be projecting an entirely neutral perspective. This can be further clarified in a manner which is not defamatory
The section on Nizari Ismaili Imamat has a paragraph on the Aga Khan's views on alcohol. Firstly, the paragraph doesn't entail in any way to the section on Nizar Ismaili Imamat. Secondly, a reference to his grandfather and his views on alcohol are entirely irrelevant to the point of view under discussion. (the article is on on Aga Khan IV not III)
The section on Divine nature of the Aga Khan may not be relevant to an encyclopedia article. If written in standards of an encyclopedia, referenced understanding of modern scholars of tradition Ismaili view on the Imamat should be discussed, rather that a seemingly misrepresentation of Ismaili sources suited to an interpretation of people who do not understand each's significance. Finally, if its necessary that Aga Khan IV's own views must be incorporated since this article primarily refers to his biography
On the personal finances and income generation from the community again a gross misrepresentation of facts have taken place. The Aga Khan's views may be helpful here to clarify the situation which are on record
Eagle's mount ( talk) 10:33, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
Marco Rubio ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Was, when quite young, baptised in an LDS church, and the mateer is so noted in his BLP. Body text:
Which is a reasonable weight for discussion of his religious background. One editor now inists on adding to the infobox "formerly Mormon" as "religion." I consider this UNDUE as it presents far greater weight to the reigion of a youth attending a church with his family than is reasonably warranted, and that infoboxes are ill-used for any contentious claims in the best of times. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 20:48, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
The details about her 2012 Olympics wins do not seem to be correct in the first paragraph - section 2.4 (2012 Summer Olympic Games) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Desi ( talk • contribs) 02:33, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
D. Ian M. Wallace ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Could I have a second opinion on D. Ian M. Wallace please? I'm minded to remove the section on criticism of his writing, not because its untrue or uncited, but because of its undue weight, given that we have no positive reviews, and nothing about the esteem he's generally held in. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:50, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
Steve Gill ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Steve Gill hasn't had any reliable sources (except for one link to an alternative newsweekly) since 2009. The current article has 5404 B (876 words) of readable prose size and uses inline external links as primary sources. Is it time to reduce this to a stub? Viriditas ( talk) 23:02, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
John Herdman ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Personal Life entry 100% lies and defamation of character — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.53.24.85 ( talk) 21:15, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
Rudolph Kos ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Could someone please look at Rudolph Kos. I don't know what he was actually convicted of but his article is pretty clear he was central to a major child sex abuse case. I'm not really interested in researching the subject and developing the references but I think someone should have a look at it. Insomesia ( talk) 22:43, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
Could I get a second opinion on this diff please. Subject is Lt. Governor of Florida, and allegations were very widely reported and likely to be a factor in her future political career; however, it also has the form of the classic "disgruntled ex-employee" trying to take out the former boss. I think we should include something, but delicately, which I hope this does. IMHO, it's not truly a BLP issue, but it's certainly edging up to it and a disinterested third party's view might be helpful. Another editor has been removing the material, I'm guessing due to the lack of substantiation to the claims. Studerby ( talk) 21:59, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
Under the Social Activism section of this article, it states the following:
He supports small-scale farming, cop-killers, does not accept milk with rBGH or other implants, and has heavily criticized US budgetary priorities, pointing out that more money is spent on nuclear weapons than on children's healthcare programs.[6
"Cop-killers"?
Not only have I never seen that associated with Ben Cohen, it seems potentially libelous. I recommend that it either be sourced or deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.3.45.212 ( talk) 04:36, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
Moheb Ullah Borekzai ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
A user named "Geo Swan" added “DoD claims he returned to supporting terrorism” to this biography.
I have checked the sources and found that this is not supported by any of the references. I ask this user for the reference that would support this claim but he did not provide me with a relevant reference that supports this claim. Instead that user replies with irrelevant walls of words and stonewalling.
I request someone from this board to correct or remove this false claim that has been introduced into this biography of a living person. Thank you. Gyrojeff ( talk) 04:35, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
As far as i can see the BLP violation i pointed out is not under discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Salim Suliman Al Harbi ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs). I would appreciate if some administrator here could now remove or change it. Do we have special rules for suspects in Guantanamo? It is a very negative claim. This claim is not supported by any source. It is a BLP. What are we waiting for? BLP violations should be removed as soon as they have been identified. Gyrojeff ( talk) 09:45, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Our policies and other wikidocuments on neutrality are full of instructions as to how to neutrally cover non-neutral references. You seem to be suggesting even neutral coverage of non-neutral references is off-limits in BLPs. Is this what you meant? Geo Swan ( talk) 21:44, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Dave Benson Phillips ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Repeated insertion of unsourced content by RMasters3434 ( talk · contribs) (e.g. [39]). Adambro ( talk) 13:55, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
Anti-semetic writings — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.82.221.43 ( talk) 02:36, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
..looks problematic, could someone please take a look? A recent source is here. LeadSongDog come howl! 04:14, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
I have for some time been concerned about the presence of articles that list Thingian Fooians. When nominated for deletion at least one example creates a hotly contested discussion of "but it is a notable intersection", yet the list is really a piece of synthesised original research (0.9 probabilty). One such list troubles me particularly. It is the intersection of LGBT people and Jewish People, and is the List of LGBT Jews.
The fact that one is LGBT is not notable of itself, though is often verifiable. The fact that one is Jewish is not notable of itself, though is usually verifiable. What I fail to understand is how the intersection of these two non notable elements of a person's life becomes a notable intersection and is worth of an article.
To set this into a perspective, let us consider people who are both Pastafarians, and whose sexuality means they are attracted only to sofas. Not only are neither of these things notable in themselves, the intersection is not notable either. List of Sofa Attracted Pastafarians is an article we would deprecate at once and whose existence would be terminated by consensus in short order (again 0.9 probability). Yet we keep the list of people who boyth are Jews and who are LGBT and consider it to be important, nay notable. By definition it can not be. It may be interesting, but it is not notable.
Why do I raise this at this noticeboard?
Because many members of the LGBT Jews article are living people. The article creates clear scope, should a person be so minded, for the creation of a discriminatory environment against those featured upon it for being ether or both of Jewish or LGBT. Such discrimination has been popular in history over many centuries. I recognise that a goodly number of the people featured in the article are not living, but sufficient are. And such a grouping is likely to fail WP:BLPCAT.
So I have raised it here in order that what I hope to be a sensible discussion might be held. I should declare clearly that I am neither biased for or against Jewish or LGBT people, but I also need to declare an interest, clearly shown on my user page, that I am a out gay man.
I am also using this article as an example of generic articles on Thingian Fooians that ought to be considered as part of the discussions. I am not against intersections where each part of the intersection is notable. Lists of people over 120 years of age who win marathon road races at that age are notable because each part is notable. Fiddle Faddle ( talk) 15:21, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
As WP:BLP now appears to require that each part of the category be specifically well sourced and relevant to the notability of the person, I suggest that the combination also nust make for a relevant part of the person's notability - which I suggest is a rare occurence. In the case at hand, I would further suggest that most of those in the list are not notable for each part of the category as well as the combination of categories - we have enough problems with simply labelling folks as "Jewish" without catenating the issue to this ginormous extent. Collect ( talk) 17:14, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
This list suffers doubly from WP:BLPCAT and all members must have reliable sourcing for both categories. However, per WP:NOTESAL if the list topic is receiving reliable 3rd party coverage, the list topic is valid. In this case, there are numerous books/articles/etc covering this topic. I an more neutral on the issue of if members of the list need to be notable on their own (this weakest criteria probably does not satisfy BLPCAT), for both criteria independently, or for both criteria jointly - I can see good arguments for all three choices. However, by virtue of BLPCAT, the list is going to be relitively short as compared to the true population, as BLPCAT is quite restrictive and having people who have self identified for both criteria, and are notable for both criteria is going to be a high burden. Gaijin42 ( talk) 14:46, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
Agree that the list has a good case for meeting
WP:GNG and should be kept if the subject of the intersection receives significant independent coverage from multiple reliable sources. Look at these lists as if they were, for example,
List of Star Trek episodes. This is the intersection of "Thing" = Star Trek and "Foo" = TV episode. This list stays because the underlying topic
Star Trek airing on TV is notable. We don't have
List of My Local AM Radio Station's Late Night Call-In Show episodes because the show itself isn't notable. We have had a number of discussions, including several AFDs, for articles like
List of Jewish Nobel laureates, about this, and the strongest argument for keep was the fact that the intersection itself met
WP:GNG--the intersection itself has had significant coverage by multiple reliable sources (see the article
List of Jewish Nobel laureates reference #3 for examples of what this looks like). There is sometimes a complaint "Why then don't we have
List of Catholic Nobel laureates? That's not fair or biased." and the response is, if you can dig up significant coverage in multiple reliable sources examining this intersection, that would probably support such a list. If "Thingian Fooian" does have or could have an article, that's a strong argument to keep "List of Thingian Fooians" as long as the list is large enough and the reliably-sourced information detailed enough to warrant a stand-alone list separate from the main article (
List of African countries should be blue; however, while
Antarctica is blue,
List of antarctic continents should stay red).
Zad
68
15:21, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
I think you are incorrect that the set of LGBT Jews is not notable. Here are just a few sources. This list far surpases any possible WP:NOTESAL bar that could reasonably be set. However, the overall concept of how intersection sets should be dealt with is a good question, this is just not a good example, becaus ethere is no question about the notability of the list. (However, there could be a good debate about what the particular criteria for inclusion in the list is)
Gaijin42 ( talk) 13:41, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
I must agree with Mr Faddle. By contrast, what might be interesting are lists of thingian fooians where thinginess and fooiness are widely (if perhaps incorrectly) perceived as incompatible: LGBT fundamentalist Christians, Deaf composers, Blind archers. -- Hoary ( talk) 00:29, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
I stumbled upon the Michael Blakey article. It was written by himself under the guise of User:Mastermusicgenius - (a seemingly unrelated person with striking biographical similarities, editing only Michael Blakey and uploading this image as his own [42], which either he took from Blakeys homepage [43] or Blakey took Mastermusicgenius photo for his own homepage... But the massive problem I have found with the article is its sensational tone and lack of sources backing up the claims made. i.e. "Blakey has worked with many superstar artists including: Tears for Fears, Dire Straits, Gloria Gaynor, Coolio, Akwid, Mary J. Blige, No Doubt, Mila Mason, 2Pac, Eminem, Luther Vandross, Brian McKnight, Waylon Jennings, Willie Nelson, Engelbert Humperdinck, Brooke Allison, Bob Carlisle, Michelle Wright and many others.", the source that is given for that only mentions he worked with Michelle Wright [44]. or "noted for his drumming talent and for producing and promoting some of the most successful artists in the world.", the source given only links to his 22 song credits [45]. And this hyperbolic statement: "been nominated for 5 Grammys, has been awarded 63 gold and platinum records and is attributed with sales of in excess of 100 million albums." - no source given. And it gets worse: "After enjoying its success, he was approached by the Italian car company, Maserati, about owning a dealership in England. Blakey saw opportunity in the ailing car company and instead, offered to take it over." source: something he wrote himself on zoominfo [46] and so on and on. In short: the whole thing is a hyperbolic unsourced self-promotion. Going through the article I did not find any! independent source confirming that this person is relevant beyond his work as a composer for TV and film. Especially as almost all the sources are self written and only imdb seems to be list professional work without self-promotion. Therefore my question: what to do about it? I would like to reduce the hyperbole and trim it all back to sourceable content... but then there is not enough left to warrant an article for this person. So: what would be the right thing to do? noclador ( talk) 15:36, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
Some of the items listed seem almost like a parody. for example: http://www.makefive.com/categories/entertainment/celebrity/best-looking-male-celebrities - which I would either categorize as a joke/hoax site where you can make yourself #1, or as a meat/sockpuppeted survey (as the winning entry only had 50 votes).
Even his own website listing media refs is mostly PR reprints and a few in passing refs (celeb so-and-so making record to be produced by MB) etc. I am going to nominate for deletion Gaijin42 ( talk) 17:05, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
In case anyone is interested, a load of stuff has been placed or replaced in the article, many items with non WP:RS sources, removing the PROD. Fiddle Faddle ( talk) 08:07, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
It turns out that Dphillips1950 is adding biographical information that is hoaxery on its face. All of the articles are people related to Ron White, per Ron White's own WWW site. The Margo Rey article is particularly troubling. It was created by Dphillips1950, and sourced to autobiographies, press releases, the IMDB, and web logs. We already know the IMDB to be untrustworthy, even if we didn't in general certainly in this specific case because its entry for Blakey repeats the nonsense about a 12-year-old drumming for Christie. Uncle G ( talk) 20:03, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
Khalid Amayreh ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
I have removed this content for now as I'm not sure whether it complies with BLP given the nature of the source and the fact that the information comes from the comments, albeit from author himself...in theory. Could some BLP experts have a look please ? Thanks. Sean.hoyland - talk 11:59, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
-- Bbb23 ( talk) 01:47, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
When I was reading this article it says that Andy Roddick is friends with Adolph Hitler and Joseph Stalin, which I think is absolutely incorrect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.108.248.223 ( talk) 01:37, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
Sharyl Attkisson ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Sharyl Attkisson is complaining on Twitter about "libel/slander" of her biography, and not being able to edit it because of COI. [50] Can someone pick this up, please? I'm not sure whether she has an account, or what it is, so will notify her on Twitter and invite her to comment here. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:58, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
Zad
68
01:48, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
Zad
68
15:22, 7 August 2012 (UTC) ADDING: I guess you're talking about the embedded link in Salzberg's blog to Gorski's writing, but the characterizations of "anti-vaccine misinformation" and "anti-science" are made by Steven Salzberg in his own Forbes blog and the article correctly attributes those characterizations to Salzberg.
Zad
68
15:27, 7 August 2012 (UTC)I have removed the sentence per undue weight and I've opened a conversation at Talk:Sharyl_Attkisson#Vaccines about why I feel this single sentence with a dubious link violates policy for inclusion. Keegan ( talk) 07:15, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
I flagged this for speedy deletion under db-g10 because this article contains libellous content and is intended to damage the personal reputation of Pankaj Oswal. The article, about a living person, is also quite clearly not written from a neutral point of view.
The majority of the pages’ content relates to the Burrup Holdings business, in which Mr Oswal was a minor (less than 50%) investor. Even if this content is relevant, it should constitute a separate article. The page relates largely to the company’s operations, which should not be the focus of biographical articles.
Also, the significant ‘edit war’ that the page has experienced is of concern. Increased administrator oversight and intervention might improve the quality of the page.
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Pankaj_Oswal&action=history
In particular, the inaccuracies that I can observe are listed below:
Libel:
• ‘With over $860 million at stake, this was ANZ's biggest single impaired asset.’ (Unsourced) These allegations are not for a single asset in any case, but multiple assets owned by a combination of Mr Oswal and the company more broadly. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/palatial-bolthole-for-failed-fertiliser-king/story-e6frg8zx-1225992594511
• ‘Most notably Pankaj held senior management positions at Oswal Chemicals & Fertilisers Ltd when the company faced charges of a serious environmental nature.[14]’ The attached link offers no evidence that Pankaj Oswal held any positions at the company and also specifies that the charges were withdrawn by the investigating ‘State Pollution Control Board’, which was something not mentioned in the article.
• ‘On 26 May 2006, there was an extensive toxic spill of approximately 79,000 litres of liquid aMDEA from the Burrup Fertiliser facility due to incorrectly set up equipment. Some of this chemical spill leached into the ecologically sensitive King Bay. Additionally, a large quantity of process gas along with aMDEA gas was released into the atmosphere.[19]’ This is entirely false and libellous, and the source contained is from the ‘Dampier Rock Art’ group who, as is visible, in reference 18 submitted to the WA government against the plant and is an ongoing antagonist of Burrup Holdings. The story cannot be digitally sourced to any article from ‘Pilbara News’. This is also false as the WA government did not take action and continued to license the facility.
• ‘Court documentation revealed allergations by Fairworld Holdings that the Oswals had breached the Trades Practices Act by engaging in misleading and deceptive conduct during lease negotiations in 2007.’ My understanding is that, at most, this is false, and, at least, no reference is provided substantiating the statement and it therefore should not be included in the article.
• ‘A report from The Australian highlighted possible deficiencies in the prospectus document based on the omission of certain financial dealings with related companies registered in the British Virgin Islands and other overseas locations. To access that information required examination of BOY’s financial records from 2006 to 2008. There appeared to be loans and debt forgivness to companies such as Double Time Enterprises, Katz Investments, Perrera, BizDev International P/L, detailed in the financials as enities related to shareholders and directors of Burrup without specifying who.’ This contains no source, but the Australian article in question should be here given the seriousness of the claims.
Contentious material which is completely unsourced poorly sourced or where the statement in the article does not accurately reflect the contents of the source:
• ‘By the latter part of 2006, there appeared to be growing rifts between principals of the Burrup facility, as well as difficulties with the gas supply contracts.’ (Unsourced)
• ‘After extensive investigations, PPB referred allegations of a series of financial irregularities within the Burrup companies to the Australian Securities & Investments Commission. Given that the Oswals no longer resided in Australia, having relocated to Dubai which has no extradition treaties, ASIC did not pursue the matter.’ (Unsourced)
• ‘Pankaj, through the marriage of his sister Shalu, is brother-in-law to Naveen Jindal, an active Congress Lok Sabha Member.’ (Unsourced)
• ‘There were also claims that documents were falsified in relation to the plant completion date.’ This is a weasel word, offering no source of these claims.
• ‘During this same period, Yara instigated action to try to compel Oswal to sell his share of the company. Yara only ceased this action prior to the proposed float of Burrup Holdings.’ This is unsourced.
• ‘Pankaj Oswal called off the proposed float following an explosion at Apache Energy’s Varanus Island plant that severely impacted the gas supply essential to the ammonia production process.[32][33]’, the sources state that this was a company, not personal, decision.
• ‘If successful, these claims may elevate Pankaj Oswal to one of biggest frauds in Australian history.’ This claim is based on invalidated findings and is clearly libellous.
Self-published sources:
• ‘Various comment boards opined that a negative aspect of the float was the Oswal's continued close control and operation of Burrup Fertilisers Pty Ltd.[31]’ – This source is to a fully open online forum about the company’s share price, and has no place on this personal biography page.
• ‘In some quarters there were growing concerns relating to the activities of Pankaj Oswal and Burrup Fertilisers Pty Ltd. In this age of social media the creator of Burrupwatch[54] provides constant news updates of those activities. Burrupwatch has in turn been recognised and cited in various media stories.[55]’ The phrase ‘in some quarters’ is a weasel word, and the sole source of this claim is a small anonymously managed Twitter account dedicated to attacking Mr Oswal and is hardly fit for an encyclopedia.
Non-NPOV:
• ‘Those executives included finance director Raj Jeyarajah; legal counsel Basil Lenzo; corporate director Wolfgang Jovanovic; and commercial director Vinojit Ambalavaner.[9] Vinojit Ambalavaner now resides in Cambodia, where he is heading up the establishment of a new 2.2 billion fertiliser project.[10][11]’ This content, particularly the more recent business operations of Vinojit Ambalavaner is not of relevance to this biographical article and is included to smear Pankaj Oswal by association.
• ‘There were growing concerns among the Pilbara community at the manner in which Mr Oswal, along with his partner Yara, dismissed environmental concerns and disregarded the significance of the rock art which is culturally important to the Aboriginal and Australian community.[20]’ – this sentence uses weasel words about who was concerned and links to a speech from an environment activist politician as its sole source. The politician, in his speech, says he has a ‘statement that is a little tongue-in-cheek’, indicating the flippant tone of the conversation, which was about Australian culture and not illegal activities.
• ‘Another case involved Mr Vikas Rambal, a former friend and business partner of Pankaj Oswal who had been the Managing Director of Burrup before starting his own fertiliser venture south of Perth.[22]’ This is irrelevant to Mr Oswal and is inserted to attach guilt by association, this is made worse by the fact that reference 23 points out that Mr Oswal and Mr Rambal were distanced after Mr Rambal’s time at Burrup Holdings. http://www.dampierrockart.net/Media/2006-12-30%20Row%20clouds%20Burrup%20plant-West%20Aus.pdf
• ‘Pankaj Oswal initially planned the float to occur in February 2008, however promoters UBS pulled the float due to the negative financial environment created by the GFC. By mid 2008 it was back on again. A great deal of fanfare accompanied the promotion of upcoming float of Burrup Holdings Ltd with the prospectus flashed across investor boardrooms in London, Paris, New York. Market commentators noted the favourable fixed costs and rising prices in the market for Burrup’s ammonia production, with some expressing interest whilst others cautioned investors that the profit potential had future uncertainty. Respected publication, Intelligent Investor, in an article 2 June 2008, indicated investors should avoid this float.[27] [28] [29]’ The language used in this passage such as ‘fanfare’ and ‘flashed’ is non-encyclopaedic. Additionally, Intelligent Investor is a small subscription newsletter and this post offers one person’s opinion and should not be promoted on this page. Additionally, this section of the article is not about Mr Oswal, but rather Burrup Holdings Ltd.
• ‘Administrators, PPB have claimed that funds were diverted from Burrup to finance the Oswals lifestyle and the Peppermint Grove building project.[49]’ In this source, PPB here are legal representatives in a private court case and not objective administrators. PPB is also facing countering legal action from Mr Oswal over mismanagement. http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/business/a/-/wa/13814612/oswal-in-new-tild-against-receivers/ http://www.perthnow.com.au/business/judge-to-decide-on-burrup-inquiry/story-e6frg2qc-1226318852955
• ‘It is difficult to keep track of the deals involving Pankaj and Radhika Oswal due to their multiple forays into business partnerships and joint ventures. [66]This is non-beneficial in an encyclopedia.
• ‘There can be confusion due to the fact that the business names of Oswal companies often closely resemble other larger well regarded organisations.’ This tone is unnecessary in an encyclopedia.
Irrelevant content:
• ‘Over a period of time there have been some legal matters presented to the courts relating to Burrup. For example, litigation instigated by Paharpur Cooling Towers involved Burrup as a guarantor for the construction payment on the plant's cooling towers.[21]’ As is visible in the source, Burrup Holdings’ fertiliser business was classified as a ‘stranger’ to the deal and were not a contestant in the court case. This incident does not belong on a page dedicated to ‘Pankaj Oswal’.
• ‘Whilst living in Perth the Oswals embarked on a series of glittering events, the size and scale of which escalated with each passing year.[39] In courting the media the Oswals increased both their own public profile and that of Burrup Fertilisers.[40] The social pages of Perth newspapers regularly featured the Oswals.[41] The lifestyle included all the trappings of wealth including private jet, collection of 17 motor vehicles, homes in exclusive suburbs Mosman Park and Peppiment Grove, luxury yachts etc.[42] From 2008 as cracks began to appear in the Oswal empire, investigative journalists produced articles questioning aspects of the Burrup operation along with affiliated companies. Mrs Oswal attributed this negative media to racism.[43] Construction of a new residence in Peppermint Grove was to be the jewel in the crown for this socialite couple. Estimated cost of the endeavour,dubbed Taj on Swan, was to be between 55 million to 80 million once completed; and included 100 arches, 7 bedrooms, 11 bathrooms. , beauty salon, gym, and telescope room. The proposed pool was to be 10 times larger than the average Perth backyard. This building project came to a halt when receivers PPB were appointed to Burrup in December 2010.[44] In the months preceding this, Radhika Oswal pushed ahead opening outlets for her proposed Otarian chain of vegetarian fast food stores.[45] Radhika Oswal oversaw details of the Otarian project right down to the creation of staff uniforms by her preferred couture designer Turun Tahiliani.[46]’ The entire Lifestyle section is irrelevant and designed to place the Oswals in a negative light. In an encyclopedia like Wikipedia, the supposed number of rooms, cars and locals nickname’s for the residence, are out of place. Phrases such as the following are written in a tone not in keeping with Wikipedia’s preferred neutral style; ‘all the trappings of wealth’, ‘socialite couple’, ‘the Oswals embarked on a series of glittering events’, ‘the size and scale escalated with each passing year’ and the use of ‘etc’ to describe personal assets. The sources quoted are from tabloid style articles. In addition, the source does not mention anything about a ‘series of events’ nor ‘the scale of the events escalating with each passing year’. This part of the article simply engages in hyperbole, rather than providing facts. Also, the business and personal activities of Radhika Oswal do not belong on this page.
• ‘The "Taj" remains unfinished and an eyesore.’ The author’s opinion of the visual aspects of this house is not relevant in an encyclopedia.
• ‘Over the years, speculation has been rife about the financial relationship of Pankaj's companies to the business operations of his father, Abhey Oswal.[56] In Australia and India, commentators have voiced concerns relating to the vague and incomplete details offered in the annual reports of companies operated by Oswal senior and Pankaj Oswal.[57][58]’ This passage and these sources related to Mr Oswal’s father and not Pankaj himself and therefore do not belong on the page.
• ‘During the course of various Burrup litigations, there have been revelations of the Oswals’ significant Australian Tax liabilities. Radhika Oswal owes over $186 million to the ATO which is one of the largest personal tax debts incurred in Australian history.[110] More recently another of Mrs Oswal’s companies, Comical Ali Militant Vegetarian was wound up due to unpaid taxes.[111]’ The only example here provided relates to a business participated in by Radhika Oswal and does not belong on Pankaj Oswal’s biographical page.
I apologise if I have miscategorised my concerns. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MOvers76 ( talk • contribs) 05:24, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
This page is an archive. Do not edit the contents of this page. Please direct any additional comments to the current main page. |
Done
I think Hotel Mocambo (1944) should be added to Miss Gloria DeHaven's filmography in the relevant Wikipedia article (English language). As of July 30, 2012, it's missing. Too bad... Brumon — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brumon ( talk • contribs) 10:34, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
An unsigned user keeps restoring a lengthy, unsourced paragraph that violates WP:BLP. I've deleted the paragraph several times, but he keeps restoring it. I might suggest that the IP numbers that he uses (there've been at least two) be blocked from editing this article.
He also repeatedly restores a similar paragraph in Southern Railway of Vancouver Island.
n2xjk ( talk) 21:08, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Paloma Faith ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Apologies if this is the wrong place, but I think something needs to be set in stone regarding Paloma Faith's birth year. It appears that she was born in 1981, but her birth year has been given as 1985 instead. Most sources say she is 26/27 (depending on how recent the article is, her birthday was last week), but so far there are no reliable sources to back up the fact she was born in 1981 and is 31. This issue has come up a few times on her article's talk page and the date in the article has also been changed a few times, but with no reliable source provided. I've come here for some advice on what to do. Do we add both years to the article, remove the year altogether (the day and month are correct) or something else entirely? - JuneGloom Talk 18:22, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
Even if the birth register shows someone of the right name born in 1981, there is still the issue of identifying that person as the one the article is about. Even unusual-looking names can be shared by more than one person. This is the sort of problem that makes us cautious about using primary sources. If I understand the talk page, this person claims to be younger. If so, it is a BLP issue as well as a primary source issue. Without a "reliable secondary source" in support, I don't think it is permissible to rely on our own interpretation of a primary source to "prove" that someone is lying. Zero talk 04:30, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
Adrian Năstase ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Sleeper account Elysander ( talk · contribs) has suddenly awaken today (after 2 years) and started adding defamatory claims (in subpar English) on the article about former Romanian prime-minister Adrian Năstase diff 1, diff 2, diff 3. Anonimu ( talk) 17:54, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
There is NO evidence that Nastase's suicide attempt took place. In the Austrian, Swiss and German Press ( print and online) the rising doubts regarding this attempt are very well documented and recherched:
Krone [1] - Die Presse [2] - NZZ NeueZürcherZeitung [3] - Welt [4] - Spiegel Online [5] and many more sources ....
Quote Spiegel Online: "Um der Haft zu entgehen, inszenierte Nastase einen theatralischen Selbstmordversuch, was ihm jedoch nur einige Tage Aufschub verschaffte - inzwischen sitzt er im Gefängnis." To escape the arrest, Nastase staged a theatrical suicide attempt, which gave him only a few days' delay - now he is in prison' [6] - Elysander ( talk) 22:18, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
Robert Coates (politician) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
"Mr.Coats left behind top secret North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) documents 'War Orders' that was in his possession. The bar manager of Tiffany's brought the document to Military Police officer Sgt. Faubert's attention, who also wrote the unusual incident report." Aside from misspellings and poor writing, this is unsourced, possibly defamatory and most likely false. I was in Lahr at the time. I am a broadcast journalist and I covered the story of Bob Coates and Tiffany's for CBC Radio Montreal. I followed the mini-scandal while it developed and never once saw any reference to, nor heard any speculation about, any documents that Coates "left behind." Nor have I been able to come up with any independent source for this piece of information (that wasn't just copy/pasted from Wikipedia). It doesn't make any sense anyway. Who would bring confidential papers with him to a strip bar... and leave them behind? The "Sgt. Faubert" mentioned in the article lacks a surname. Who was the manager of Tiffany's that was cited? This article in the Montreal Gazette is how I remember the Coates scandal: http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1946&dat=19850214&id=XTcjAAAAIBAJ&sjid=tqUFAAAAIBAJ&pg=1630,1659504 Coates resigned because he placed himself in a compromising situation, not because he left some supposed documents in a strip bar. Regards, Bill Peterson in Berlin (reply to (Redacted)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.103.76.28 ( talk) 14:31, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Eric Hughes (film producer) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
This person is not legitimate to be on wikipedia. This appears to be a vanity article. There are little to no third party sources. This has happened before when he used the name Eric B. Hughes and he was deleted because of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boomboxboombox ( talk • contribs) 21:20, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Eric Hughes (film producer) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)— Preceding unsigned comment added by Boomboxboombox ( talk • contribs) 21:26, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
John Leonard called an exceptional performance by Chinese swimmer, Ye Shiwen, "disturbing" and drew parallels with Michelle Smith, who was banned for drug use. These suggestions were widely reported in the media. 1, 2, 3
Spearhead's placed a BLP on the dashboard, link's here. I can't remove this, so I'm requesting it be removed. Thanks "....We are all Kosh...." <-Babylon-5-> 18:28, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
Candy Lightner ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
SPA user talk:CDoddridge keeps adding a great deal of essaylike content at Candy Lightner, as well as removing all sources and damaging the article structure. I am not going to revert this again, but the article is wounded at the moment. I expect to wait until this individual wanders off to damage some other article before working on the Lightner article any further. Whatever any interested editor decides to do, please don't come to my talk page. I am unfriendly. The article talk page will suffice, I am sure. User talk:Unfriend12 18:42, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
Douglas Youvan ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Can some experienced editors please take a look at this article and the talk page? There seems to be a very slow back-and-forth discussion using words like libel, and that negative aspects of the article are "hurting" fundraising efforts. With unsigned comments, and discussion formatted in such a way as I am unsure who is responding to what point, it's all rather beyond me. Full disclosure: I nom'd the article for deletion due to NOTE and PROF, and even added a /ref after the fact provided by a person commenting on the woefully sparse AFD discussion. But I've also been told in that same discussion that one factor that makes this person notable ( H-index) cannot (or should not) be used as a reference, which is...well...just beyond my experience. The article and its editing history can be easily seen for what it is...and the talk page is relatively short. The AFD discussion is obviously linked from there as well. So anyone willing to take a look should easily find what they need. I don't feel the need to link to a bunch of diffs here...it's all there in short form...but someone more experienced might take a look , b/c it's a little beyond me, and there are some "legal" insinuations being tossed about. Thanks, Ditch ∝ 04:27, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
Marion Kozak ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Marion Kozak ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Bio created today by User:IZAK - the bio has previously (not this one but historic versions) been deleted twice. Although she is mentioned in articles I don't think she is notable for anything specific - the mother of two notable people and the wife of a notable person and coming from a Polish town were atrocities were committed (this appears coat-racked onto her life story) - its a life story about her not the atrocity? She was seven or eight when she emigrated/fled to Belgium) all seem to be added in bloating the fact that there is nothing actually notable about her - just my first thought on reading the article - could someone else have a look and see what you think - there are also a few opinionated comments/flourishes in the reading also and the citations with multiple uses need sorting out to see the wood from the trees - thanks - Youreally can 04:33, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
Hooman Majd ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) A couple of editors are trying to insert right-wing/neo-con libelous statements against a notable Iranian-American scholar, essentially calling him an agent of the Iranian regime, into the lead of his article. [7] [8] Hooman Majd is an independent mainstream commentator and a US citizen, who regularly appears on ABC, CNN and NBC news as an expert on Iran. [9] The lead is no place for libelous statements/subjective opinions about the subject, and a clear violation of WP:BLP. This is like putting Michele Bachmann's accusations against Huma Abedin, into the lead of her article as a fact. I am hoping a few more people would keep an eye on this article. As a last resort, I may have to notify the subject of this article, to file a complaint with Wikipedia office. Kurdo777 ( talk) 05:53, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
A couple of editors have been trying to insert what appears to be libelous statements from a right-wing/neo-con editorial against a notable Iranian-American scholar, essentially calling him an agent of the Iranian regime, into the lead of his article Hooman Majd. [10] [11] These are very serious accusations. Hooman Majd is an independent mainstream commentator and a US citizen, who regularly appears on ABC, CNN and NBC news as an expert on Iran. [12] This is like putting Michele Bachmann's accusations against Huma Abedin, into the lead of her article as a fact. Such material, which is basically subjective gossip/opinion as oppose to an objective fact, accusing a living person of being an agent of another government, does not belong in a living person's article, let alone the lead, even if they're sourced. I can find a sourced derogatory statements about many public officials in editorials by their opponents, it doesn't mean that I can go and dump it into the lead of their Wikipedia article. Now I'm puzzled as to what can be done about this. I tried to remove the libelous material, but I was reverted three times. I wanted to notify the subject of this article, to file a complaint with Wikipedia office, but I was given a warning for legal threats, which I believe is baseless, as it's the right of the subject to know what is being said about him, on his Wikipedia article, which might have real-life consequences for him. I was hoping for input from uninvolved administrators. What's the best course of action to take here? Can the subject be notified or not? Can an administrator intervene here to remove the possibly libelous material? Kurdo777 ( talk) 07:51, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
Stuff in the green box moved here from WP:AN/I. -- Hoary ( talk) 09:31, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
Jason Russell ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
This report is regarding Jason Russell, a low-notability filmmaker whose best claim to notability appears to be involvement in the Kony 2012 project. Russell momentarily made tabloid headlines just subsequent to around the time the Kony film went viral, when he had a meltdown of some sort and got himself arrested for some type (reports vary) of public lewd behavior. Because the lewdness apparently involved public nudity, the story was picked up by TMZ.
The BLP problem we have is the clear guidance given by WP:NPF. This sort of thing is not Wikipedia-worthy material in the case of a low-notability person.
People who are relatively unknown [edit]
Policy shortcut: WP:NPF
Wikipedia contains biographical material on people who, while notable enough for an entry, are not generally well known. In such cases, exercise restraint and include only material relevant to their notability, focusing on high quality secondary sources. Material published by the subject may be used, but with caution; see above. Material that may adversely affect a person's reputation should be treated with special care; in many jurisdictions, repeating a defamatory claim is actionable, and there is additional protection for subjects who are not public figures.
(emphasis from the original)
We can find sufficient notability for Russell's article in his filmmaking - the Kony 2012 project was a fairly big deal that reached many, many eyeballs around the world. We do NOT find Wikipedia-worthy notability in being picked up by the police for public nudity, unless the person is an A-list celebrity or a national-level politician. Therefore, it is clearly not compliant with our BLP policy to include this material in the article.
Other editors have proposed compromise solutions that include removing mention of the nudity and only mentioning the breakdown. The problem with that is, again, notability. We don't mention being picked up by the police in any BLP, unless it is an A-list public figure (which have different standards).
This matter has been brought to N/BLP two times in the past, and it appears to have been a split - having been decided one way on the first occasion and (maybe) another way the second time (it's hard to tell from looking at the discussion, I don't see where there was an especially solid consensus). We need a solid decision here to stave off the persistent recurring edit-warring that has plagued this article for much of its history. Belchfire- TALK 06:52, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
It's been explained to Silver seren and Collect many times but for some reason they are using the same arguments. I don't want to use sensational media/accusations. The nudity is a proven fact from several videos that has many reliable news sources that reported that. There's nothing sensational about it. Regarding the police statement, that should be included, however it keeps getting removed. The police statement is not sensational. Since the incident needs to be mentioned, we are not doing the reader justice by giving them an incomplete overview of what happened. Acoma Magic ( talk) 15:12, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Wrong Chase Daniels.
The Chase Daniels listed as someone from Kentucky is erroneous. The Chase Daniels from Kentucky is female and her real name is Tamaro Tatum (Chase Daniels was her radio name ). Also, she has had a more prestigious career, having won broadcasting awards, worked at more top-rated and diverse formats and has not only worked in Atlanta but also on the national level at XM (now SiriusXM). She also retired from radio in 2008.
The Chase Daniels listed on this site is from Jacksonville, FL, and has only worked in Florida and Atlanta.
The Chase Daniels from Kentucky had a Wiki page but it must have been erased and taken over by the other Chase Daniels from Florida ...yet it is still linked to the Kentucky page.
Please correct this error. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.18.150.53 ( talk) 12:20, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Todd Palin ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
There is an edit war going on right now about an alleged extramarital affair, which is already shaping up to be a prime candidate for WP:LAME. There are obviously plenty of people watching the article already, but something tells me it could use more. I'm suspicious of the quality of the sources used to advance this claim. I'm equally suspicious that some of the editors who are continuing to revert this addition have shown their biases before. RadioKAOS ( talk) 19:40, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
Yup. Wikipedia really does have a Category:Ethnically nepotistic football clubs - though fortunately with only 4 'members'. Just how many policies does this appear to violate? I suspect the number of policies it doesn't violate is shorter. Anyway, it clearly violates WP:BLP for a start. Can someone with a strong stomach and experience of how one deletes categories please step in to remove it from our sight? AndyTheGrump ( talk) 14:10, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
Nominated for deletion. -- GRuban ( talk) 18:44, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
Stephen M. Cohen ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Sex.com ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
This has been added to this BLP by UserScottjduffy, (his first two edits since eighteen months) and copy pasted to the Sex.com article -
Since then, Cohen has continued to avoid paying the $67 million judgement, and claims poverty. Courts have found in Kremen's favor several times since 2006, with evidence that seven individuals and twelve companies were used to help Cohen hide the money, including his brother, his daughter, his ex-wife and also his former lawyer. A court case against his brother is ongoing.
that is an assertion regarding Cohen, certainly not one we have already sourced.— Ryulong ( 竜龙) 00:53, 3 August 2012 (UTC)Since then, Cohen has continued to avoid paying the $67 million judgement, and claims poverty. Courts have found in Kremen's favor several times since 2006, with evidence that seven individuals and twelve companies were used to help Cohen hide the money, including his brother, his daughter, his ex-wife and also his former lawyer. A court case against his brother is ongoing.
I haven't looked at this article in detail or at the specific allegations, but YRC is right about BLPPRIMARY:
Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person. ... Where primary-source material has been discussed by a reliable secondary source, it may be acceptable to rely on it to augment the secondary source ...
The reason we require reliable secondary sources is to make sure Wikipedians don't collect negative material from courts that no one else deems worthy of publication (e.g. allegations made during a divorce, and similar). SlimVirgin (talk) 03:57, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
Wording changed per NPOV. Other individuals identified (wife etc.) did not need to be here - the BLP is about the single person. Collect ( talk) 17:49, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
We have a BLP problem and an edit war on this article. Wmbowersatty ( talk · contribs), a new editor, is trying to turn the article into a promotional piece claiming personal knowledge of the subject. I've reverted twice (the second time after trimming the article and adding references), and one other editor reverted. Your help is appreciated. Drmies ( talk) 14:07, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
Hello, I would like to bring editors' attention to a serious issue in the article for John Sullivan (Oklahoma). Information has been added to this article that appears to violate Wikipedia's guidelines for biographical articles. Specifically, a section has been created titled "Criminal record", which appears in the contents list of the article. The section details allegations made about the arrest record of the Representative, made by a former opponent. It also includes information published by the media regarding his arrest record. While I understand that his arrest record is notable because it was subject to media attention during his campaigns in 2004 and onwards, after his opponent made statements about it, however I do not think that 20-year-old arrests should require their own section in his biographical article. Nor do I think that the details of each arrest are necessary here. I see that WP:BLPCRIME notes that for "relatively unknown" people criminal acts should only be included if there was a conviction, should not a similar guideline apply for more well-known individuals if the events were a long time ago, and only notable because of allegations by a political opponent? In this case, the Representative was never convicted of a crime, so surely the section should not be called "Criminal record". At the least, I think it would help to move this information out of the "Personal life" section and remove or change the section heading. I've brought this issue here, rather than removing or changing the information, since I work for Representative Sullivan. In the interests of openness, I have also placed a similar message on the article's "Talk" page. I would appreciate if editors here could provide a unbiased review of this section and make such changes as are necessary. Thank you in advance. -- EdwardDC ( talk) 16:34, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
I was just about to unwatch this page and noticed this thread. Witness Lyman Hoffman, wherein someone decided that a conviction for drunken driving was "more encyclopedic" than the fact that he's currently among the five longest-serving members in the history of the Alaska Legislature. The user who added that information appears to have added similar information regarding a number of other politicians. In Hoffman's instance, there was a conviction (and while an incumbent officeholder), and this was reported by a RS (radio station KINY's news department). Still, I find it undue weight, but that will probably depend upon me to do something about it, along with the hundreds of other articles needing attention and languishing in the queue. RadioKAOS ( talk) 21:24, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
I have encountered a problem regarding a BLP, but it is very sensitive and I would rather not cause a Streisand effect. Where can I resolve this? -- Jprg1966 (talk) 17:15, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
Ed Miliband ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
The BLP is a WP:GA - and has been altered to describe him as a Non observant Jew - without discussion or any additional reliable citations - Youreally can 22:20, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
(Undent)To say that someone is not observant is not quite an insult, but it's very close. Check out what the thesaurus says about "inobservance":
“ | absentmindedness, carelessness, default, delinquency, dereliction, disconformity, disregard, disregardfulness, distraction, failure, flightiness, flippancy, frivolousness, giddiness, heedlessness, inadvertence, inadvertency, inattention, inattentiveness, inconsideration, incuriosity, indifference, laxity, levity, lightmindedness, neglect, negligence, nonadherence, noncompliance, nonconformance, nonconformity, nonfeasance, nonfulfillment, nonobservance, nonperformance, obliviousness, omission, oversight, regardlessness, shallowness, slight, superficiality, thoughtlessness, unalertness, unawareness, unconsciousness, unheedfulness, unintentiveness, unmindfulness, unobservance, unwariness, unwatchfulness | ” |
Likewise, the Merriam-Webster Dictionary says that being observant means to be "careful in observing (as rites, laws, or customs)". The American Heritage Dictionary says that you're observant if you're "Diligent in observing a law, custom, duty, or principle", whereas inobservance is defined as "Lack of heed or attention; disregard." It's much more neutral to say a person is not religious than to say they're not observant (the latter connotes a sloppy or lazy religiosity). 108.18.174.123 ( talk) 10:04, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
Thomas Sowell ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
There seems to be an ongoing dispute over whether to include an article written by the subject about race and other things and also a blog entry from the MMfA by an un named staff writer. This has nothing to do with RS and everything to do with undue weight and if the material is trivial. Could uninvolved eyes please chime in on the talk page where it is discussed in a few sections now. Thank you, -- Mollskman ( talk) 14:01, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
Mollskman said up front that "This has nothing to do with RS and everything to do with undue weight and if the material is trivial" so any talk about the source being unreliable is just a distraction. I'd like to hear someone explain why they believe this is a BLP violation as opposed to a minor content dispute. Still-24-45-42-125 ( talk) 00:44, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
The source is grossly misused - and makes a claim not actually present in the editorial. When I sought to use the actual words in the editorial, I was summarily reverted. Also the claim that some backed the "comparison" is inapt as no such direct "comparison" is in the editorial. The closest the editorial comes is that it says the Reichstag gave Hitler excessive powers, but it does not say in any language that Obama is like Hitler. Nor did Palin say "Obama is like Hitler" - she said that the BP fund was unconstitutional. Such political silly season edits are beneath contempt. Cheers.
Collect (
talk) 12:43, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
If the editorial has not attracted any notice outside the usual partisan outlets, then it probably isn't notable enough for mention in Sowell's biography. It is arguably relevant to describe Sowell's role as a sometimes rhetorically extreme partisan polemicist, but this particular instance it seems like the editorial in question hasn't really attracted much notice outside the insulated partisan blogosphere.
I'm not especially comfortable using Media Matters (or any such partisan website) as a source in a BLP, either. MastCell Talk 16:24, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
I agree that there's a sourcing issue if all we have is MMfA. However, there are other sources to show notability:
I could go on. Do I need to? Still-24-45-42-125 ( talk) 06:41, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
In the first dispute resolution:
*Acceptible Use MMfA is clearly an organization with a political slant. However, that does not mean that their opinion cannot be quoted in a Wikipedia article. Political-based articles routinely cite sources which have a political stance (e.g., NRA, PETA, NAACP). There have been at least 25 reliable source discussions about MMfA, and the general conclusion of the RS forums is that the organization cannot be used as a source of news, but that their opinion can be cited. The text cited above makes it clear that MMfA is a liberal organization, and that the comment in question is their opinion. The actual article comparing Obama's actions to Hitler's is referenced in Investor's Business Daily, which is a reliable source of news, and the paragraph also gives the opinion of two people supporting Sowell's publication of the article, thus ensuring the commentary is NPOV. Based on this, inclusion of MMfA is acceptible. Debbie W. 03:39, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
And in the second one.
This discussion has gone WAY off track. The dispute resolution does not address conduct matters - and this discussion has been very unproductive. If a discussion has taken place regarding the use of a source on the RSN and a clear result was not achieved, you can ask for more input with a community RFC. Yelling at each other is not the way to resolve this. From the discussion here, it appears that the reliability of a the MMfA source has been confirmed - so the key here is attributing the point of view to MMfA - you cannot exclude a significant viewpoint from an article just because you don't like it. That's not how Wikipedia works, and is a serious conduct matter. I suggest that the discussed material be included as long as it is attributed to MMfA, and everyone here gets on with their lives and does something more productive. Steven Zhang 02:37, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
CartoonDiablo ( talk) 06:58, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
The claim is that anything which is an "implicit comparison" should be described as a "comparison" even when people reading the column do not see the comparison (20/20 eyesight for reading-beween-the-lines is needed to see the "comparison." Then people are stated to endorse the "comparison" when they only state they endorse the column. Lastly, one of the sources used is Gohmert Endorses Sowell's Hitler Comparison an op-ed blog post titled Gohmert Endorses Sowell's Hitler Comparison used to state that title as a factual claim when it is obviously the opinion of the writer and hence is improperly used for a "fact claim" under WP:BLP. [21] shows a blanket reversion of my attempt at a reasonably NPOV claim - but the ones who read-between-the-lines seem determined to paint Palin, Sowell et al with the "He said the Hitler word in the same column as Obama therefore he is evil" brush <g>. BLPs are supposed to use claims directly supported by factual sources, not to make opinions into facts. Collect ( talk) 13:55, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
Scjessey has now asserted that this discussion either does not exist, or that it backs his edit [25] (edit summary: Reverted 1 edit by Collect (talk): Rv edit based on misleading edit summary. using TW) and his comment on my UT page: No such discussion exists on BLP/N, so basically you are using lies to push your POV.
I rather think this discussion exists here, and that it does not back his edit which makes the "fact" statement that Sowell "has been criticized for various remarks such as a comparison he made between President Barack Obama and Adolf Hitler " Will others please so inform him? Cheers. Collect ( talk) 12:21, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
Richard Quest ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Richard Quest is a very well known public person. He is a high profile CNN presenter.
In 2008 Mr Quest was arrested in Central Park New York, (Redacted). He was in the park outside the hours of curfew for the park. The matter was reported in the mainstream media (but not CNN).
I believe this item of information to be in the public interest, and therefore not defamatory. Also, a critical defense to defamation is that the reported item be true, and this event clearly is true. Also, Mr. Quest is a public figure, therefore items such as this are allowed to be disseminated in respect of him.
On Tuesday 31 July, I edited the Wikipedia entry for Mr Quest, so that it includes this information. The new entry was done is a way which followed Wikipedia guidelines. It included a link to a reputable newspaper report of the incident.
However, soon after this, another user had removed the reference to Mr Quest's arrest.
I believe that not allowing this item to appear on Wikipedia amounts to censorship, and I question the motives of a person wishing to act in this way.
Clearly, CNN does not want this information appearing in relation to such a prominent figure in their organization. However, other prominent news organizations have been able to print this, including Australia's Sydney Morning Herald. Australia has well developed defamation laws, however the Sydney Morning Herald has been able to report this for the past 4 years.
If anyone else has an opinion on this I would welcome their thoughts.
Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dleau ( talk • contribs) 07:52, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
In reply to comments that Richard Quest's biography should not contain any details of his arrest in New York and possession of methamphetamine, I draw your attention to the wikipedia entry of Australian journalist Peter Lloyd. Peter Lloyd was arrested in Singapore for possession of a "small" amount of the drug "ice", which is methamphetamine. He was subsequently convicted in a Singapore court for such possession. This arrest and conviction is clearly indicated in Peter Lloyd's wikipedia page. Did Peter Lloyd do anything more serious than Richard Quest? One (Lloyd) was arrested in a country which has a very low tolerance towards drug possession (Singapore) with a "small" amount of methamphetamine, but because of that country's stance on drugs, this arrest must appear on his wikipedia entry. Another (Quest) is arrested in possession of the same thing (a "small" amount of methamphetamine) but since the charges relating to such possession are dropped pending his participation in a rehabilitation scheme, that fact must not appear on his wikipedia entry. To me, this unfair for Peter Lloyd. Also there is another more sinister issue involved here. Richard Quest is a highly paid reporter for a major news provider (CNN). Interestingly, I have not been able to find any mention of this issue on any CNN site. The fact that this is NOT widely reported, as required by wikipedia rules, stems from the very fact that the subject is a highly visible member of such major news organisation. Such news organisations are VERY concerned about their outward appearance, as they need to maintain a clean image to protect their massive advertising revenues. Their massive advertising revenues allow them to allocate substantial funds to maintaining such clean image. Wikipedia does have to be very careful in what it writes about living persons, however if such living person is a member of the very sector (news sector/media) that is charged with reporting such matters, and the organisation for which such living person works represents a major segment of news reportage, and chooses not to report any infarction by such person... reportage will be substantially diminished, and the test for wikipedia inclusion will not be met (that the matter be widely reported). The net result? Money caused the truth to be hidden. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dleau ( talk • contribs) 09:28, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
WP:BLP does not prevent mention of arrests for crimes - in the case at point the issue becomes: "Was the arrest notable in the life of the person?" and "Is the arrest relevant in any way to the life of the person?".
[27] is from
The New York Times. I consider that newspaper to be a "newspaper of record" for such material, and is not a tabloid in any manner. It does not indicate a "lack of reporting." The NYT describes him as " a high-profile correspondent for CNN International, known for feature reports and profiles. CNN calls Mr. Quest, who is British, one of the network’s 'most instantly recognizable members.' " Thus his notability is pretty well-established per the NYT. The claim shold note if there was any conviction, but the arest is clearly notable and RS sourceable. Cheers.
Collect (
talk) 10:38, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
[28] Reuters indicates " New York judge ordered CNN reporter Richard Quest to undergo six months of counseling on Friday after Quest was arrested in Central Park for possession of a controlled substance, his lawyer said" which is clearly about as NPOV as one could wish.
Collect (
talk) 10:41, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
In April 2008, Quest was stopped by police at 3:40am in Central Park, New York City, and after questioning, admitted to be in possession of a small quantity of a controlled substance: crystal methamphetamine. [1] Quest agreed to undergo 6 months of drug counseling. [2]
Note: Editors keep re-adding him to
List of LGBT Jews which I consider a violation of BLPCAT at a minimum. Other eyes welcomed.
Collect (
talk) 20:12, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
Chavis Carter ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Hi. I'm posting this here to seek guidance on the inclusion of this article - although the guy is actually dead, apparently from a suicide while in a police vehicle, there are concerns on the BLP policy about the inclusion, since it's concerning a very recent death, and there is something about not including material like this, to prevent distress to relatives, etc. I am not quite sure about a way round this, but in my own opinion, the material is worthy of CSD, although not entirely sure how. Any thoughts or suggestions welcome. BarkingFish 19:06, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
Ingo Haar ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
I recently removed a posting on the biography of Ingo Haar [32] that is a falsehood and in plain English a blatant POV push. The false posting was restored again by another user who could very well be a sock. Users over in German Wikipedia may be able to help us to verify the information in this biography. I really want to avoid an edit war and request your review of this matter. -- Woogie10w ( talk) 14:31, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
I Just reversved a falsehood and in plain English a blatant POV push on the biography of Ingo Haar for the third time. Please review. -- Woogie10w ( talk) 11:08, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
I have notified the three editors who made these edits of the posting here. I have a copy of the text of the article by Haar that was misrepresented.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 11:32, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
Aga Khan IV ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) The section on marriages, divorces and children is rife with references which are from tabloid newspapers and therefore may not be projecting an entirely neutral perspective. This can be further clarified in a manner which is not defamatory
The section on Nizari Ismaili Imamat has a paragraph on the Aga Khan's views on alcohol. Firstly, the paragraph doesn't entail in any way to the section on Nizar Ismaili Imamat. Secondly, a reference to his grandfather and his views on alcohol are entirely irrelevant to the point of view under discussion. (the article is on on Aga Khan IV not III)
The section on Divine nature of the Aga Khan may not be relevant to an encyclopedia article. If written in standards of an encyclopedia, referenced understanding of modern scholars of tradition Ismaili view on the Imamat should be discussed, rather that a seemingly misrepresentation of Ismaili sources suited to an interpretation of people who do not understand each's significance. Finally, if its necessary that Aga Khan IV's own views must be incorporated since this article primarily refers to his biography
On the personal finances and income generation from the community again a gross misrepresentation of facts have taken place. The Aga Khan's views may be helpful here to clarify the situation which are on record
Eagle's mount ( talk) 10:33, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
Marco Rubio ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Was, when quite young, baptised in an LDS church, and the mateer is so noted in his BLP. Body text:
Which is a reasonable weight for discussion of his religious background. One editor now inists on adding to the infobox "formerly Mormon" as "religion." I consider this UNDUE as it presents far greater weight to the reigion of a youth attending a church with his family than is reasonably warranted, and that infoboxes are ill-used for any contentious claims in the best of times. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 20:48, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
The details about her 2012 Olympics wins do not seem to be correct in the first paragraph - section 2.4 (2012 Summer Olympic Games) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Desi ( talk • contribs) 02:33, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
D. Ian M. Wallace ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Could I have a second opinion on D. Ian M. Wallace please? I'm minded to remove the section on criticism of his writing, not because its untrue or uncited, but because of its undue weight, given that we have no positive reviews, and nothing about the esteem he's generally held in. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:50, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
Steve Gill ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Steve Gill hasn't had any reliable sources (except for one link to an alternative newsweekly) since 2009. The current article has 5404 B (876 words) of readable prose size and uses inline external links as primary sources. Is it time to reduce this to a stub? Viriditas ( talk) 23:02, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
John Herdman ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Personal Life entry 100% lies and defamation of character — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.53.24.85 ( talk) 21:15, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
Rudolph Kos ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Could someone please look at Rudolph Kos. I don't know what he was actually convicted of but his article is pretty clear he was central to a major child sex abuse case. I'm not really interested in researching the subject and developing the references but I think someone should have a look at it. Insomesia ( talk) 22:43, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
Could I get a second opinion on this diff please. Subject is Lt. Governor of Florida, and allegations were very widely reported and likely to be a factor in her future political career; however, it also has the form of the classic "disgruntled ex-employee" trying to take out the former boss. I think we should include something, but delicately, which I hope this does. IMHO, it's not truly a BLP issue, but it's certainly edging up to it and a disinterested third party's view might be helpful. Another editor has been removing the material, I'm guessing due to the lack of substantiation to the claims. Studerby ( talk) 21:59, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
Under the Social Activism section of this article, it states the following:
He supports small-scale farming, cop-killers, does not accept milk with rBGH or other implants, and has heavily criticized US budgetary priorities, pointing out that more money is spent on nuclear weapons than on children's healthcare programs.[6
"Cop-killers"?
Not only have I never seen that associated with Ben Cohen, it seems potentially libelous. I recommend that it either be sourced or deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.3.45.212 ( talk) 04:36, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
Moheb Ullah Borekzai ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
A user named "Geo Swan" added “DoD claims he returned to supporting terrorism” to this biography.
I have checked the sources and found that this is not supported by any of the references. I ask this user for the reference that would support this claim but he did not provide me with a relevant reference that supports this claim. Instead that user replies with irrelevant walls of words and stonewalling.
I request someone from this board to correct or remove this false claim that has been introduced into this biography of a living person. Thank you. Gyrojeff ( talk) 04:35, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
As far as i can see the BLP violation i pointed out is not under discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Salim Suliman Al Harbi ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs). I would appreciate if some administrator here could now remove or change it. Do we have special rules for suspects in Guantanamo? It is a very negative claim. This claim is not supported by any source. It is a BLP. What are we waiting for? BLP violations should be removed as soon as they have been identified. Gyrojeff ( talk) 09:45, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Our policies and other wikidocuments on neutrality are full of instructions as to how to neutrally cover non-neutral references. You seem to be suggesting even neutral coverage of non-neutral references is off-limits in BLPs. Is this what you meant? Geo Swan ( talk) 21:44, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Dave Benson Phillips ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Repeated insertion of unsourced content by RMasters3434 ( talk · contribs) (e.g. [39]). Adambro ( talk) 13:55, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
Anti-semetic writings — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.82.221.43 ( talk) 02:36, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
..looks problematic, could someone please take a look? A recent source is here. LeadSongDog come howl! 04:14, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
I have for some time been concerned about the presence of articles that list Thingian Fooians. When nominated for deletion at least one example creates a hotly contested discussion of "but it is a notable intersection", yet the list is really a piece of synthesised original research (0.9 probabilty). One such list troubles me particularly. It is the intersection of LGBT people and Jewish People, and is the List of LGBT Jews.
The fact that one is LGBT is not notable of itself, though is often verifiable. The fact that one is Jewish is not notable of itself, though is usually verifiable. What I fail to understand is how the intersection of these two non notable elements of a person's life becomes a notable intersection and is worth of an article.
To set this into a perspective, let us consider people who are both Pastafarians, and whose sexuality means they are attracted only to sofas. Not only are neither of these things notable in themselves, the intersection is not notable either. List of Sofa Attracted Pastafarians is an article we would deprecate at once and whose existence would be terminated by consensus in short order (again 0.9 probability). Yet we keep the list of people who boyth are Jews and who are LGBT and consider it to be important, nay notable. By definition it can not be. It may be interesting, but it is not notable.
Why do I raise this at this noticeboard?
Because many members of the LGBT Jews article are living people. The article creates clear scope, should a person be so minded, for the creation of a discriminatory environment against those featured upon it for being ether or both of Jewish or LGBT. Such discrimination has been popular in history over many centuries. I recognise that a goodly number of the people featured in the article are not living, but sufficient are. And such a grouping is likely to fail WP:BLPCAT.
So I have raised it here in order that what I hope to be a sensible discussion might be held. I should declare clearly that I am neither biased for or against Jewish or LGBT people, but I also need to declare an interest, clearly shown on my user page, that I am a out gay man.
I am also using this article as an example of generic articles on Thingian Fooians that ought to be considered as part of the discussions. I am not against intersections where each part of the intersection is notable. Lists of people over 120 years of age who win marathon road races at that age are notable because each part is notable. Fiddle Faddle ( talk) 15:21, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
As WP:BLP now appears to require that each part of the category be specifically well sourced and relevant to the notability of the person, I suggest that the combination also nust make for a relevant part of the person's notability - which I suggest is a rare occurence. In the case at hand, I would further suggest that most of those in the list are not notable for each part of the category as well as the combination of categories - we have enough problems with simply labelling folks as "Jewish" without catenating the issue to this ginormous extent. Collect ( talk) 17:14, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
This list suffers doubly from WP:BLPCAT and all members must have reliable sourcing for both categories. However, per WP:NOTESAL if the list topic is receiving reliable 3rd party coverage, the list topic is valid. In this case, there are numerous books/articles/etc covering this topic. I an more neutral on the issue of if members of the list need to be notable on their own (this weakest criteria probably does not satisfy BLPCAT), for both criteria independently, or for both criteria jointly - I can see good arguments for all three choices. However, by virtue of BLPCAT, the list is going to be relitively short as compared to the true population, as BLPCAT is quite restrictive and having people who have self identified for both criteria, and are notable for both criteria is going to be a high burden. Gaijin42 ( talk) 14:46, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
Agree that the list has a good case for meeting
WP:GNG and should be kept if the subject of the intersection receives significant independent coverage from multiple reliable sources. Look at these lists as if they were, for example,
List of Star Trek episodes. This is the intersection of "Thing" = Star Trek and "Foo" = TV episode. This list stays because the underlying topic
Star Trek airing on TV is notable. We don't have
List of My Local AM Radio Station's Late Night Call-In Show episodes because the show itself isn't notable. We have had a number of discussions, including several AFDs, for articles like
List of Jewish Nobel laureates, about this, and the strongest argument for keep was the fact that the intersection itself met
WP:GNG--the intersection itself has had significant coverage by multiple reliable sources (see the article
List of Jewish Nobel laureates reference #3 for examples of what this looks like). There is sometimes a complaint "Why then don't we have
List of Catholic Nobel laureates? That's not fair or biased." and the response is, if you can dig up significant coverage in multiple reliable sources examining this intersection, that would probably support such a list. If "Thingian Fooian" does have or could have an article, that's a strong argument to keep "List of Thingian Fooians" as long as the list is large enough and the reliably-sourced information detailed enough to warrant a stand-alone list separate from the main article (
List of African countries should be blue; however, while
Antarctica is blue,
List of antarctic continents should stay red).
Zad
68
15:21, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
I think you are incorrect that the set of LGBT Jews is not notable. Here are just a few sources. This list far surpases any possible WP:NOTESAL bar that could reasonably be set. However, the overall concept of how intersection sets should be dealt with is a good question, this is just not a good example, becaus ethere is no question about the notability of the list. (However, there could be a good debate about what the particular criteria for inclusion in the list is)
Gaijin42 ( talk) 13:41, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
I must agree with Mr Faddle. By contrast, what might be interesting are lists of thingian fooians where thinginess and fooiness are widely (if perhaps incorrectly) perceived as incompatible: LGBT fundamentalist Christians, Deaf composers, Blind archers. -- Hoary ( talk) 00:29, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
I stumbled upon the Michael Blakey article. It was written by himself under the guise of User:Mastermusicgenius - (a seemingly unrelated person with striking biographical similarities, editing only Michael Blakey and uploading this image as his own [42], which either he took from Blakeys homepage [43] or Blakey took Mastermusicgenius photo for his own homepage... But the massive problem I have found with the article is its sensational tone and lack of sources backing up the claims made. i.e. "Blakey has worked with many superstar artists including: Tears for Fears, Dire Straits, Gloria Gaynor, Coolio, Akwid, Mary J. Blige, No Doubt, Mila Mason, 2Pac, Eminem, Luther Vandross, Brian McKnight, Waylon Jennings, Willie Nelson, Engelbert Humperdinck, Brooke Allison, Bob Carlisle, Michelle Wright and many others.", the source that is given for that only mentions he worked with Michelle Wright [44]. or "noted for his drumming talent and for producing and promoting some of the most successful artists in the world.", the source given only links to his 22 song credits [45]. And this hyperbolic statement: "been nominated for 5 Grammys, has been awarded 63 gold and platinum records and is attributed with sales of in excess of 100 million albums." - no source given. And it gets worse: "After enjoying its success, he was approached by the Italian car company, Maserati, about owning a dealership in England. Blakey saw opportunity in the ailing car company and instead, offered to take it over." source: something he wrote himself on zoominfo [46] and so on and on. In short: the whole thing is a hyperbolic unsourced self-promotion. Going through the article I did not find any! independent source confirming that this person is relevant beyond his work as a composer for TV and film. Especially as almost all the sources are self written and only imdb seems to be list professional work without self-promotion. Therefore my question: what to do about it? I would like to reduce the hyperbole and trim it all back to sourceable content... but then there is not enough left to warrant an article for this person. So: what would be the right thing to do? noclador ( talk) 15:36, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
Some of the items listed seem almost like a parody. for example: http://www.makefive.com/categories/entertainment/celebrity/best-looking-male-celebrities - which I would either categorize as a joke/hoax site where you can make yourself #1, or as a meat/sockpuppeted survey (as the winning entry only had 50 votes).
Even his own website listing media refs is mostly PR reprints and a few in passing refs (celeb so-and-so making record to be produced by MB) etc. I am going to nominate for deletion Gaijin42 ( talk) 17:05, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
In case anyone is interested, a load of stuff has been placed or replaced in the article, many items with non WP:RS sources, removing the PROD. Fiddle Faddle ( talk) 08:07, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
It turns out that Dphillips1950 is adding biographical information that is hoaxery on its face. All of the articles are people related to Ron White, per Ron White's own WWW site. The Margo Rey article is particularly troubling. It was created by Dphillips1950, and sourced to autobiographies, press releases, the IMDB, and web logs. We already know the IMDB to be untrustworthy, even if we didn't in general certainly in this specific case because its entry for Blakey repeats the nonsense about a 12-year-old drumming for Christie. Uncle G ( talk) 20:03, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
Khalid Amayreh ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
I have removed this content for now as I'm not sure whether it complies with BLP given the nature of the source and the fact that the information comes from the comments, albeit from author himself...in theory. Could some BLP experts have a look please ? Thanks. Sean.hoyland - talk 11:59, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
-- Bbb23 ( talk) 01:47, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
When I was reading this article it says that Andy Roddick is friends with Adolph Hitler and Joseph Stalin, which I think is absolutely incorrect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.108.248.223 ( talk) 01:37, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
Sharyl Attkisson ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Sharyl Attkisson is complaining on Twitter about "libel/slander" of her biography, and not being able to edit it because of COI. [50] Can someone pick this up, please? I'm not sure whether she has an account, or what it is, so will notify her on Twitter and invite her to comment here. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:58, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
Zad
68
01:48, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
Zad
68
15:22, 7 August 2012 (UTC) ADDING: I guess you're talking about the embedded link in Salzberg's blog to Gorski's writing, but the characterizations of "anti-vaccine misinformation" and "anti-science" are made by Steven Salzberg in his own Forbes blog and the article correctly attributes those characterizations to Salzberg.
Zad
68
15:27, 7 August 2012 (UTC)I have removed the sentence per undue weight and I've opened a conversation at Talk:Sharyl_Attkisson#Vaccines about why I feel this single sentence with a dubious link violates policy for inclusion. Keegan ( talk) 07:15, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
I flagged this for speedy deletion under db-g10 because this article contains libellous content and is intended to damage the personal reputation of Pankaj Oswal. The article, about a living person, is also quite clearly not written from a neutral point of view.
The majority of the pages’ content relates to the Burrup Holdings business, in which Mr Oswal was a minor (less than 50%) investor. Even if this content is relevant, it should constitute a separate article. The page relates largely to the company’s operations, which should not be the focus of biographical articles.
Also, the significant ‘edit war’ that the page has experienced is of concern. Increased administrator oversight and intervention might improve the quality of the page.
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Pankaj_Oswal&action=history
In particular, the inaccuracies that I can observe are listed below:
Libel:
• ‘With over $860 million at stake, this was ANZ's biggest single impaired asset.’ (Unsourced) These allegations are not for a single asset in any case, but multiple assets owned by a combination of Mr Oswal and the company more broadly. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/palatial-bolthole-for-failed-fertiliser-king/story-e6frg8zx-1225992594511
• ‘Most notably Pankaj held senior management positions at Oswal Chemicals & Fertilisers Ltd when the company faced charges of a serious environmental nature.[14]’ The attached link offers no evidence that Pankaj Oswal held any positions at the company and also specifies that the charges were withdrawn by the investigating ‘State Pollution Control Board’, which was something not mentioned in the article.
• ‘On 26 May 2006, there was an extensive toxic spill of approximately 79,000 litres of liquid aMDEA from the Burrup Fertiliser facility due to incorrectly set up equipment. Some of this chemical spill leached into the ecologically sensitive King Bay. Additionally, a large quantity of process gas along with aMDEA gas was released into the atmosphere.[19]’ This is entirely false and libellous, and the source contained is from the ‘Dampier Rock Art’ group who, as is visible, in reference 18 submitted to the WA government against the plant and is an ongoing antagonist of Burrup Holdings. The story cannot be digitally sourced to any article from ‘Pilbara News’. This is also false as the WA government did not take action and continued to license the facility.
• ‘Court documentation revealed allergations by Fairworld Holdings that the Oswals had breached the Trades Practices Act by engaging in misleading and deceptive conduct during lease negotiations in 2007.’ My understanding is that, at most, this is false, and, at least, no reference is provided substantiating the statement and it therefore should not be included in the article.
• ‘A report from The Australian highlighted possible deficiencies in the prospectus document based on the omission of certain financial dealings with related companies registered in the British Virgin Islands and other overseas locations. To access that information required examination of BOY’s financial records from 2006 to 2008. There appeared to be loans and debt forgivness to companies such as Double Time Enterprises, Katz Investments, Perrera, BizDev International P/L, detailed in the financials as enities related to shareholders and directors of Burrup without specifying who.’ This contains no source, but the Australian article in question should be here given the seriousness of the claims.
Contentious material which is completely unsourced poorly sourced or where the statement in the article does not accurately reflect the contents of the source:
• ‘By the latter part of 2006, there appeared to be growing rifts between principals of the Burrup facility, as well as difficulties with the gas supply contracts.’ (Unsourced)
• ‘After extensive investigations, PPB referred allegations of a series of financial irregularities within the Burrup companies to the Australian Securities & Investments Commission. Given that the Oswals no longer resided in Australia, having relocated to Dubai which has no extradition treaties, ASIC did not pursue the matter.’ (Unsourced)
• ‘Pankaj, through the marriage of his sister Shalu, is brother-in-law to Naveen Jindal, an active Congress Lok Sabha Member.’ (Unsourced)
• ‘There were also claims that documents were falsified in relation to the plant completion date.’ This is a weasel word, offering no source of these claims.
• ‘During this same period, Yara instigated action to try to compel Oswal to sell his share of the company. Yara only ceased this action prior to the proposed float of Burrup Holdings.’ This is unsourced.
• ‘Pankaj Oswal called off the proposed float following an explosion at Apache Energy’s Varanus Island plant that severely impacted the gas supply essential to the ammonia production process.[32][33]’, the sources state that this was a company, not personal, decision.
• ‘If successful, these claims may elevate Pankaj Oswal to one of biggest frauds in Australian history.’ This claim is based on invalidated findings and is clearly libellous.
Self-published sources:
• ‘Various comment boards opined that a negative aspect of the float was the Oswal's continued close control and operation of Burrup Fertilisers Pty Ltd.[31]’ – This source is to a fully open online forum about the company’s share price, and has no place on this personal biography page.
• ‘In some quarters there were growing concerns relating to the activities of Pankaj Oswal and Burrup Fertilisers Pty Ltd. In this age of social media the creator of Burrupwatch[54] provides constant news updates of those activities. Burrupwatch has in turn been recognised and cited in various media stories.[55]’ The phrase ‘in some quarters’ is a weasel word, and the sole source of this claim is a small anonymously managed Twitter account dedicated to attacking Mr Oswal and is hardly fit for an encyclopedia.
Non-NPOV:
• ‘Those executives included finance director Raj Jeyarajah; legal counsel Basil Lenzo; corporate director Wolfgang Jovanovic; and commercial director Vinojit Ambalavaner.[9] Vinojit Ambalavaner now resides in Cambodia, where he is heading up the establishment of a new 2.2 billion fertiliser project.[10][11]’ This content, particularly the more recent business operations of Vinojit Ambalavaner is not of relevance to this biographical article and is included to smear Pankaj Oswal by association.
• ‘There were growing concerns among the Pilbara community at the manner in which Mr Oswal, along with his partner Yara, dismissed environmental concerns and disregarded the significance of the rock art which is culturally important to the Aboriginal and Australian community.[20]’ – this sentence uses weasel words about who was concerned and links to a speech from an environment activist politician as its sole source. The politician, in his speech, says he has a ‘statement that is a little tongue-in-cheek’, indicating the flippant tone of the conversation, which was about Australian culture and not illegal activities.
• ‘Another case involved Mr Vikas Rambal, a former friend and business partner of Pankaj Oswal who had been the Managing Director of Burrup before starting his own fertiliser venture south of Perth.[22]’ This is irrelevant to Mr Oswal and is inserted to attach guilt by association, this is made worse by the fact that reference 23 points out that Mr Oswal and Mr Rambal were distanced after Mr Rambal’s time at Burrup Holdings. http://www.dampierrockart.net/Media/2006-12-30%20Row%20clouds%20Burrup%20plant-West%20Aus.pdf
• ‘Pankaj Oswal initially planned the float to occur in February 2008, however promoters UBS pulled the float due to the negative financial environment created by the GFC. By mid 2008 it was back on again. A great deal of fanfare accompanied the promotion of upcoming float of Burrup Holdings Ltd with the prospectus flashed across investor boardrooms in London, Paris, New York. Market commentators noted the favourable fixed costs and rising prices in the market for Burrup’s ammonia production, with some expressing interest whilst others cautioned investors that the profit potential had future uncertainty. Respected publication, Intelligent Investor, in an article 2 June 2008, indicated investors should avoid this float.[27] [28] [29]’ The language used in this passage such as ‘fanfare’ and ‘flashed’ is non-encyclopaedic. Additionally, Intelligent Investor is a small subscription newsletter and this post offers one person’s opinion and should not be promoted on this page. Additionally, this section of the article is not about Mr Oswal, but rather Burrup Holdings Ltd.
• ‘Administrators, PPB have claimed that funds were diverted from Burrup to finance the Oswals lifestyle and the Peppermint Grove building project.[49]’ In this source, PPB here are legal representatives in a private court case and not objective administrators. PPB is also facing countering legal action from Mr Oswal over mismanagement. http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/business/a/-/wa/13814612/oswal-in-new-tild-against-receivers/ http://www.perthnow.com.au/business/judge-to-decide-on-burrup-inquiry/story-e6frg2qc-1226318852955
• ‘It is difficult to keep track of the deals involving Pankaj and Radhika Oswal due to their multiple forays into business partnerships and joint ventures. [66]This is non-beneficial in an encyclopedia.
• ‘There can be confusion due to the fact that the business names of Oswal companies often closely resemble other larger well regarded organisations.’ This tone is unnecessary in an encyclopedia.
Irrelevant content:
• ‘Over a period of time there have been some legal matters presented to the courts relating to Burrup. For example, litigation instigated by Paharpur Cooling Towers involved Burrup as a guarantor for the construction payment on the plant's cooling towers.[21]’ As is visible in the source, Burrup Holdings’ fertiliser business was classified as a ‘stranger’ to the deal and were not a contestant in the court case. This incident does not belong on a page dedicated to ‘Pankaj Oswal’.
• ‘Whilst living in Perth the Oswals embarked on a series of glittering events, the size and scale of which escalated with each passing year.[39] In courting the media the Oswals increased both their own public profile and that of Burrup Fertilisers.[40] The social pages of Perth newspapers regularly featured the Oswals.[41] The lifestyle included all the trappings of wealth including private jet, collection of 17 motor vehicles, homes in exclusive suburbs Mosman Park and Peppiment Grove, luxury yachts etc.[42] From 2008 as cracks began to appear in the Oswal empire, investigative journalists produced articles questioning aspects of the Burrup operation along with affiliated companies. Mrs Oswal attributed this negative media to racism.[43] Construction of a new residence in Peppermint Grove was to be the jewel in the crown for this socialite couple. Estimated cost of the endeavour,dubbed Taj on Swan, was to be between 55 million to 80 million once completed; and included 100 arches, 7 bedrooms, 11 bathrooms. , beauty salon, gym, and telescope room. The proposed pool was to be 10 times larger than the average Perth backyard. This building project came to a halt when receivers PPB were appointed to Burrup in December 2010.[44] In the months preceding this, Radhika Oswal pushed ahead opening outlets for her proposed Otarian chain of vegetarian fast food stores.[45] Radhika Oswal oversaw details of the Otarian project right down to the creation of staff uniforms by her preferred couture designer Turun Tahiliani.[46]’ The entire Lifestyle section is irrelevant and designed to place the Oswals in a negative light. In an encyclopedia like Wikipedia, the supposed number of rooms, cars and locals nickname’s for the residence, are out of place. Phrases such as the following are written in a tone not in keeping with Wikipedia’s preferred neutral style; ‘all the trappings of wealth’, ‘socialite couple’, ‘the Oswals embarked on a series of glittering events’, ‘the size and scale escalated with each passing year’ and the use of ‘etc’ to describe personal assets. The sources quoted are from tabloid style articles. In addition, the source does not mention anything about a ‘series of events’ nor ‘the scale of the events escalating with each passing year’. This part of the article simply engages in hyperbole, rather than providing facts. Also, the business and personal activities of Radhika Oswal do not belong on this page.
• ‘The "Taj" remains unfinished and an eyesore.’ The author’s opinion of the visual aspects of this house is not relevant in an encyclopedia.
• ‘Over the years, speculation has been rife about the financial relationship of Pankaj's companies to the business operations of his father, Abhey Oswal.[56] In Australia and India, commentators have voiced concerns relating to the vague and incomplete details offered in the annual reports of companies operated by Oswal senior and Pankaj Oswal.[57][58]’ This passage and these sources related to Mr Oswal’s father and not Pankaj himself and therefore do not belong on the page.
• ‘During the course of various Burrup litigations, there have been revelations of the Oswals’ significant Australian Tax liabilities. Radhika Oswal owes over $186 million to the ATO which is one of the largest personal tax debts incurred in Australian history.[110] More recently another of Mrs Oswal’s companies, Comical Ali Militant Vegetarian was wound up due to unpaid taxes.[111]’ The only example here provided relates to a business participated in by Radhika Oswal and does not belong on Pankaj Oswal’s biographical page.
I apologise if I have miscategorised my concerns. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MOvers76 ( talk • contribs) 05:24, 8 August 2012 (UTC)