- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was merge to 2022 anti-war protests in Russia. Opinions are split three-way between delete, merge and keep. The "delete" and "keep" arguments are relatively weak: the "delete" side does not address the sources found by the "keep" side, while the "keep" side has found only one example of in-depth coverage, the Meduza article, while the other sources appear to be passing mentions. Under these circumstances, a selective merger, as a compromise solution, is the most consensual outcome of this discussion. Sandstein 10:51, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
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- White-blue-white flag ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Anti-war symbol, but the article is very WP:ORish and has problems with WP:GNG. The term "White-blue-white flag" is not widespread. There is some very recent social media exposure, but I can't find any reliable sources (even in press) discussing this symbol. WP:TOOSOON? Not sure if anything here is mergeable to 2022 anti-war protests in Russia, given low quality references. Although this is one of those cases where we may be get some journalistic coverage any moment - but until this happens, I am afraid, GNG is not met. (Also, given the current political context, Wikipedia:RIGHTGREATWRONGS and WP:ITSIMPORTANT are worth remembering). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:16, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:16, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Social science-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:16, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Russia-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:16, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- Draftify Unable to find significant coverage at this time, but I think this topic has the potential to be notable if it does receive coverage in the future. WP:TOOSOON to put the article in mainspace. Qwaiiplayer ( talk) 13:24, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- Delete: WP:TOOSOON Dialmayo ( talk) 13:37, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose deletion. If necessary, support draftification per Qwaiiplayer. Super Ψ Dro 18:02, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- Delete. The subject of the article does not meet the notability guidelines. It doesn't cite any reliable and independent source mentioning the widespread use of the proposed flag at any anti-war protest on Russian Soil. - Dziego~enwiki ( talk) 22:17, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- Merge first three sentences to 2022 anti-war protests in Russia with picture, then draftify. We can always add new material to the 2022 anti war protests article, then separate it again if justified. Buckshot06 (talk) 05:00, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
- Merge this page with 2022 anti-war protests in Russia I think we should keep it, but merge it, until we have enough credible sources, and when we do, separate it again. ChrDur1 ( talk) 03:09, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- Merge with the article on protests in Russia. It's obviously a real thing and it can have an article if and when it becomes big enough for its own article. The name of the article is also just a description as things stand. -- Killuminator ( talk) 05:36, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- Merge this page with 2022 anti-war protests in Russia. I think the best thing to do would be to wait for a more official name for the flag to come out before it has its own article. A Google search for 'white-blue-white' flag has this article as the only outstanding result. Anoncocoa1 ( talk) 14:32, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- Keep This flag is an important symbol that is becoming more and more common. It's not simply part of anti-war protests in Russia. It is being used in other countries as well. So you cannot merge it with anti-war protests in Russia. Here is it being used in Georgia, not Russia.
https://twitter.com/With__Ukraine/status/1502652362971881482 Also
WP:TOOSOON doesn't apply as this is an on-going event.
Ergzay (
talk)
14:39, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- I agree. I see this flag emerging widely in social media in recent days, notably among anti-war inclined Russians. This Wikipedia page should be kept and should grow, and certainly not be deleted. Alex Anderson, London 213.205.194.55 ( talk) 15:10, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- Keep I also agree with Ergzay. Twopower332.1938 ( talk) 21:41, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
- Keep This flag is an important symbol that is becoming more and more common. --
Panam2014 (
talk)
16:08, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- @ Panam2014 @ Ergzay I appreciate your heart seems to be in the right place, but WP:ITSIMPORTANT was already linked in the nomination... Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:24, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
- Merge this page with
2022 anti-war protests in Russia per others above. Seems to be the best of both worlds. —
Czello
22:46, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- @ Czello If it is merged then the page has to be renamed as this is not IN Russia. Ergzay ( talk) 17:44, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
- No, it literally doesn't. Some foreign sympathizers waving the same flage doesn't change the fact where due weight should be given. Killuminator ( talk) 05:50, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
- Merge this page with 2022 anti-war protests in Russia. It's notable enough to be mentioned in that article. However, the primary measurement of notability is significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. The currently cited references in the article have a strong bias to social networks and self-published sources, and that's really not good enough for an independent article. I checked the article about the same topic in the Russian Wikipedia, and the situations with references there is even worse. Maybe it will change some day, but for now it should redirect to the article about the protests and not be a separate article. -- Amir E. Aharoni ( talk) 10:53, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
- Keep - the flag is notable.
89.8.146.21 (
talk)
21:36, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
- That isn’t even an argument. Provide reliable sources. Dronebogus ( talk) 21:38, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
- Merge this page with 2022 anti-war protests in Russia per WP:TOOSOON. The keep votes are all blatantly just WP:ITSIMPORTANT. Dronebogus ( talk) 23:13, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
- Keep. I do agree that over the last two weeks, this flag was only known on social media and among the narrow circles of the Russian opposition, even though it was flown occasionally. However, today there was a long publication on Meduza (one of Russian opposition's main media outlets) with its story, which explained how it became a popular symbol over such a short period. More to follow. Dmitri Lytov ( talk) 04:58, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
- Merge into 2022 anti-war protests in Russia, per WP:TOOSOON. It can always be split out again into its own article if it achieves independent notability. — The Anome ( talk) 09:17, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
- Delete soapbox. This flag has no historical basis.
Beshogur (
talk)
11:01, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
- Absolutely agree, DELETE! Also, the information in regards to similar flags is incorrect. Belarusians flag has much deeper history, first mentioned in 15th century. See more details here=> White red white flag value. White-red and white flag and "pursuit" as true national symbols of Belarus (video) (nemelianov.ru) Litsvinka ( talk) 22:49, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
- Keep, now there is a large article in Meduza, which describes the history and usage of this flag. Wikisaurus ( talk) 13:13, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
- Keep. This flag now is a huge symbol of anti-war movement in Russia and Russian diaspora worldwide. I think Meduza's article already shared above confirmes that pretty well. Meiræ 13:05, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
- Keep – as others have stated, it's becoming an important opposition symbol, which means it deserves its own article. I don't see how "the flag has no history" is an argument; it does have a history, albeit a young one, as is the case with every such kind of symbol that appears at a certain time. Lupishor ( talk) 13:49, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
- Keep. International (English-language) coverage in
WP:RS from several different countries:
Irish Independent
[1],
Meduza
[2],
VOA
[3]; and Russian-language WP:RS coverage:
OVD-Info
[4]. While this is associated with the Russian anti-war protests, flags are typically individual articles. No justification for rushing to delete:
Wikipedia:RUSHDELETE.
Boud (
talk)
07:47, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
- But still only the Medusa article has SIGCOV of the flag. GNG requires multiple sources. This is not met, but of course, a second independent sources may appear anytime... Until this does, I think merge is a reasonable option, with no prejudice to restoration once we have 2+ sources that meet SIGCOV. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:17, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
- Delete Per WP:TOOSOON and lack (so far) of multiple reliable secondary sources. ǁǁǁ ǁ Chalk19 ( talk) 05:10, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
- Keep Just came across an article about it [5] Looks like this is a thing. 78.18.49.52 ( talk) 10:54, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was merge to 2022 anti-war protests in Russia. Opinions are split three-way between delete, merge and keep. The "delete" and "keep" arguments are relatively weak: the "delete" side does not address the sources found by the "keep" side, while the "keep" side has found only one example of in-depth coverage, the Meduza article, while the other sources appear to be passing mentions. Under these circumstances, a selective merger, as a compromise solution, is the most consensual outcome of this discussion. Sandstein 10:51, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- White-blue-white flag ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Anti-war symbol, but the article is very WP:ORish and has problems with WP:GNG. The term "White-blue-white flag" is not widespread. There is some very recent social media exposure, but I can't find any reliable sources (even in press) discussing this symbol. WP:TOOSOON? Not sure if anything here is mergeable to 2022 anti-war protests in Russia, given low quality references. Although this is one of those cases where we may be get some journalistic coverage any moment - but until this happens, I am afraid, GNG is not met. (Also, given the current political context, Wikipedia:RIGHTGREATWRONGS and WP:ITSIMPORTANT are worth remembering). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:16, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:16, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Social science-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:16, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Russia-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:16, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- Draftify Unable to find significant coverage at this time, but I think this topic has the potential to be notable if it does receive coverage in the future. WP:TOOSOON to put the article in mainspace. Qwaiiplayer ( talk) 13:24, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- Delete: WP:TOOSOON Dialmayo ( talk) 13:37, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose deletion. If necessary, support draftification per Qwaiiplayer. Super Ψ Dro 18:02, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- Delete. The subject of the article does not meet the notability guidelines. It doesn't cite any reliable and independent source mentioning the widespread use of the proposed flag at any anti-war protest on Russian Soil. - Dziego~enwiki ( talk) 22:17, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- Merge first three sentences to 2022 anti-war protests in Russia with picture, then draftify. We can always add new material to the 2022 anti war protests article, then separate it again if justified. Buckshot06 (talk) 05:00, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
- Merge this page with 2022 anti-war protests in Russia I think we should keep it, but merge it, until we have enough credible sources, and when we do, separate it again. ChrDur1 ( talk) 03:09, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- Merge with the article on protests in Russia. It's obviously a real thing and it can have an article if and when it becomes big enough for its own article. The name of the article is also just a description as things stand. -- Killuminator ( talk) 05:36, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- Merge this page with 2022 anti-war protests in Russia. I think the best thing to do would be to wait for a more official name for the flag to come out before it has its own article. A Google search for 'white-blue-white' flag has this article as the only outstanding result. Anoncocoa1 ( talk) 14:32, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- Keep This flag is an important symbol that is becoming more and more common. It's not simply part of anti-war protests in Russia. It is being used in other countries as well. So you cannot merge it with anti-war protests in Russia. Here is it being used in Georgia, not Russia.
https://twitter.com/With__Ukraine/status/1502652362971881482 Also
WP:TOOSOON doesn't apply as this is an on-going event.
Ergzay (
talk)
14:39, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- I agree. I see this flag emerging widely in social media in recent days, notably among anti-war inclined Russians. This Wikipedia page should be kept and should grow, and certainly not be deleted. Alex Anderson, London 213.205.194.55 ( talk) 15:10, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- Keep I also agree with Ergzay. Twopower332.1938 ( talk) 21:41, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
- Keep This flag is an important symbol that is becoming more and more common. --
Panam2014 (
talk)
16:08, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- @ Panam2014 @ Ergzay I appreciate your heart seems to be in the right place, but WP:ITSIMPORTANT was already linked in the nomination... Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:24, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
- Merge this page with
2022 anti-war protests in Russia per others above. Seems to be the best of both worlds. —
Czello
22:46, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- @ Czello If it is merged then the page has to be renamed as this is not IN Russia. Ergzay ( talk) 17:44, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
- No, it literally doesn't. Some foreign sympathizers waving the same flage doesn't change the fact where due weight should be given. Killuminator ( talk) 05:50, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
- Merge this page with 2022 anti-war protests in Russia. It's notable enough to be mentioned in that article. However, the primary measurement of notability is significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. The currently cited references in the article have a strong bias to social networks and self-published sources, and that's really not good enough for an independent article. I checked the article about the same topic in the Russian Wikipedia, and the situations with references there is even worse. Maybe it will change some day, but for now it should redirect to the article about the protests and not be a separate article. -- Amir E. Aharoni ( talk) 10:53, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
- Keep - the flag is notable.
89.8.146.21 (
talk)
21:36, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
- That isn’t even an argument. Provide reliable sources. Dronebogus ( talk) 21:38, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
- Merge this page with 2022 anti-war protests in Russia per WP:TOOSOON. The keep votes are all blatantly just WP:ITSIMPORTANT. Dronebogus ( talk) 23:13, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
- Keep. I do agree that over the last two weeks, this flag was only known on social media and among the narrow circles of the Russian opposition, even though it was flown occasionally. However, today there was a long publication on Meduza (one of Russian opposition's main media outlets) with its story, which explained how it became a popular symbol over such a short period. More to follow. Dmitri Lytov ( talk) 04:58, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
- Merge into 2022 anti-war protests in Russia, per WP:TOOSOON. It can always be split out again into its own article if it achieves independent notability. — The Anome ( talk) 09:17, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
- Delete soapbox. This flag has no historical basis.
Beshogur (
talk)
11:01, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
- Absolutely agree, DELETE! Also, the information in regards to similar flags is incorrect. Belarusians flag has much deeper history, first mentioned in 15th century. See more details here=> White red white flag value. White-red and white flag and "pursuit" as true national symbols of Belarus (video) (nemelianov.ru) Litsvinka ( talk) 22:49, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
- Keep, now there is a large article in Meduza, which describes the history and usage of this flag. Wikisaurus ( talk) 13:13, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
- Keep. This flag now is a huge symbol of anti-war movement in Russia and Russian diaspora worldwide. I think Meduza's article already shared above confirmes that pretty well. Meiræ 13:05, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
- Keep – as others have stated, it's becoming an important opposition symbol, which means it deserves its own article. I don't see how "the flag has no history" is an argument; it does have a history, albeit a young one, as is the case with every such kind of symbol that appears at a certain time. Lupishor ( talk) 13:49, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
- Keep. International (English-language) coverage in
WP:RS from several different countries:
Irish Independent
[1],
Meduza
[2],
VOA
[3]; and Russian-language WP:RS coverage:
OVD-Info
[4]. While this is associated with the Russian anti-war protests, flags are typically individual articles. No justification for rushing to delete:
Wikipedia:RUSHDELETE.
Boud (
talk)
07:47, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
- But still only the Medusa article has SIGCOV of the flag. GNG requires multiple sources. This is not met, but of course, a second independent sources may appear anytime... Until this does, I think merge is a reasonable option, with no prejudice to restoration once we have 2+ sources that meet SIGCOV. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:17, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
- Delete Per WP:TOOSOON and lack (so far) of multiple reliable secondary sources. ǁǁǁ ǁ Chalk19 ( talk) 05:10, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
- Keep Just came across an article about it [5] Looks like this is a thing. 78.18.49.52 ( talk) 10:54, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.