- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. (non-admin closure) Linguist111 ( talk) 02:57, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
Judd Hamilton
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- Judd Hamilton ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
sources consist of 45cat (unreliable), discogs ( unreliable), a whole bunch of primary sources, and unrelated sources. lettherebedarklight 晚安 13:43, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the
deletion sorting lists for the following topics:
Bands and musicians and
United States of America.
lettherebedarklight
晚安 13:43, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
- To Whom it May Concern
- If the embarrassing, ridiculous deletion notice is not immediately removed permanently remove my Wikipedia page. Judd Hamilton 2601:601:D02:2120:F9AB:D435:CBF4:D7E1 ( talk) 16:54, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the
deletion sorting lists for the following topics:
Actors and filmmakers and
Washington.
Spiderone
(Talk to Spider) 13:54, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
- Hello,
- As I recently had cause to share my appreciated Wikipedia page I was a bit shocked to see said page is being considered for deletion? Having previously created a Wikipedia article in the early 2000's not knowing doing so may have violated Wikipedia practices said version was deleted. Subsequently I was made aware that a new Judd Hamilton Wikipedia page had been created by whom I'm not aware that to my surprise reasonably accurately chronicled my showbiz career. Having not created the existing page I did manage to edit some areas into a more accurate recollection, simply to keep the information 100% factual. Thus, I can confirm everything currently being stated is absolutely truthful and accurate to the multiple included references.
- Accordingly, in respecting the great work Wikipedia contributes to providing uniquely useful information I'm wondering why the current Judd Hamilton page, created by a knowledgeable unknown author, is now being considered for deletion. In this regard, about 1-year ago I realized one of the volunteer Wikipedia editors had taken exception to a Current Activities section I had added to bring the article up to date and a rather contentious written debate ensued. After which said editor arbitrarily removed the Current Activities section as the only section that I personal contributed. I tried to report this contentious debate to the Wikipedia management people but received no reply.
- So with this latest possible deletion notice being unexpectedly attached at the top of the page I'm hoping that you may be able to investigate the erroneous contentions once again being made by a volunteer editor. And in doing so help me resolve any misunderstandings relative the article portraying the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. As it currently does with extensive references already included. Simply because my reputation is once again at stake. Also, while at one time I was able to log in to make any needed factual adjustments, I have since lost the log in information.
- Thanking you in advance for any help you can provide, Judd Hamilton
2601:601:D02:2120:F9AB:D435:CBF4:D7E1 (
talk) 05:20, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
- As a follow up, the previous contentious volunteer Wikipedia editor was Mako001. Again seriously hoping you can resolve this latest worrying page deletion threat. Best Regards, Judd Hamilton 2601:601:D02:2120:F9AB:D435:CBF4:D7E1 ( talk) 06:05, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
- Keep, Notable subject. Hamilton played an important role in the surf music genre. He worked as an arranger on some surf records that were hits in California and became classics. With regard to the above, the assessment is incorrect. The sources for the discography are from 45cat and discogs. Yes, but that doesn't make the subject non-notable. Those sections just need to improve. The music-trade magazine sources are reliable. The article has also been changed an edited by some people over a period of time and these other edits weren't referenced properly. Karl Twist ( talk) 05:08, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
Where are these sources? They don't come up in a casual news source. Even in the book search its incidental coverage (Judd's wife might be notable as she was a Bond Girl according to one, and the horror articles are the IMBD of the day saying "yes Judd was in this low budget movie" an effective stubb without context. Ask me about air Cryogenic air ( talk) 19:18, 8 January 2023 (UTC)striking sock lettherebedarklight 晚安 02:00, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- Note to closing admin - Hi, if by some small chance this item is leaning towards deletion, is it possible that we could have this re-directed to the
The T-Bones or
Dan Hamilton page please? There's a lot of work done between the two of them. Thanks.
Karl Twist (
talk) 09:15, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
- Hello Karl, I appreciate your comments regarding the ridiculous, embarrassing, unwarranted deletion notice that has appeared on my Wikipedia page. As everything stated is factual and true, i.e. I have made sure the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth is stated I am stunned that a deletion notice would appear. Therefore, I have notified one of the volunteer editors if this reputation destroying notice is not immediately removed I want the Judd Hamilton page permanently removed. Having until recently seriously appreciated the I thought good work Wikipedia appears to do in providing useful information, having previously found a so-called editor was removing information I began to seriously question Wikipedias arbitrarily enacted editing process and accordingly my opinion of Wikipedia is fast dwindling into disrespect for the systems arbitrary, anyone can alter and/or have truthfully enacted articles removed. So again thanks for your opinion, hoping this embarrassing deletion notice can be immediately removed to protect my reputation and if not as stated and however it can be done I need the Judd Hamilton page removed. Thanks for any help in this regard, Judd Hamilton
2601:601:D02:2120:F9AB:D435:CBF4:D7E1 (
talk) 17:21, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
- Hi Mr. Hamilton, I hope that the page will be saved. I don't think that it should have been nominated for deletion. I'll talk more later.
Karl Twist (
talk) 07:01, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you, Thank you Karl. I'm still trying to figure out what the person who installed this deletion notice based their complaint on? Inclusive of the factual information recorded by whomever initially created the page that has always been been appreciated solely relates to the 60's, 70's, into the 80's music, film work I did.
- As previously stated, when last year I tried to personally update to the current material science, radiation shielding invention work that occupies my full time efforts that I expressed in a couple of sentences, a volunteer editor Mako001 suddenly appeared forbidding said inclusion as nothing more than self-promotion, removed the Current Activities info, and somehow personally placed a 6-month prohibition for me being able to access Wikipedia should there have needed to be a factual correction or update. A basically anonymous person can make those decisions?
- And now as I hit my 81st lap my inventions activities are speeding into increasing attention and as of the past few days whenever anyone places my name in a search engine the first or one of the first articles that appears is the Wikipedia page. With several people thinking, "Judd, is all of this Wikipedia information phony, a lie?" Thus, from a character demeaning point of view I'm still flabbergasted this type of embarrassing situation could even remotely happen when an article is provably and evidentially referenced?
- Anyway, I won't go on, again thanks for your hopeful intercession and onward to see what happens or doesn't happen next. Especially as over the years Wikipedia has been one of my main, seriously appreciated raw material research references to which I will always be grateful as said science based info helped me achieve multiple world patents. Which of course according to Mako001's authority said current activity info is forbidden as self-serving, self-promotional nonsense. While most of the records and films I was long ago involved with are still being sold on the Internet? And even though I don't receive anything from whomever sells said material I'm pleasantly amazed projects and records I long ago forgot about have been preserved on the Internet? Hmmm, Judd 2601:601:D02:2120:2D85:C84E:EE00:4AF0 ( talk) 09:13, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
- Hi Mr. Hamilton, I hope that the page will be saved. I don't think that it should have been nominated for deletion. I'll talk more later.
Karl Twist (
talk) 07:01, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
- Hello Karl, I appreciate your comments regarding the ridiculous, embarrassing, unwarranted deletion notice that has appeared on my Wikipedia page. As everything stated is factual and true, i.e. I have made sure the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth is stated I am stunned that a deletion notice would appear. Therefore, I have notified one of the volunteer editors if this reputation destroying notice is not immediately removed I want the Judd Hamilton page permanently removed. Having until recently seriously appreciated the I thought good work Wikipedia appears to do in providing useful information, having previously found a so-called editor was removing information I began to seriously question Wikipedias arbitrarily enacted editing process and accordingly my opinion of Wikipedia is fast dwindling into disrespect for the systems arbitrary, anyone can alter and/or have truthfully enacted articles removed. So again thanks for your opinion, hoping this embarrassing deletion notice can be immediately removed to protect my reputation and if not as stated and however it can be done I need the Judd Hamilton page removed. Thanks for any help in this regard, Judd Hamilton
2601:601:D02:2120:F9AB:D435:CBF4:D7E1 (
talk) 17:21, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
- Follow up comment to my Note to closing admin post, 09:15, 3 January 2023. With a re-direct, the unique history is preserved. Thanks Karl Twist ( talk) 07:03, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Note to participants: whether or not we have a Wikipedia article is determined based on notability, usually demonstrated by substantive coverage in multiple, independent, reliable sources. It has nothing to do with the accuracy of what is currently on the page. As things stand very little of the commentary directly impinges on whether we should keep the page.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Vanamonde ( Talk) 18:10, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
- Delete
Source assessment table: prepared by
User:WngLdr34
| ||||
| Source | Independent? | Reliable? | Significant coverage? | Count source toward GNG? |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| https://www.spokesman.com/stories/1995/jan/05/music-still-keeps-late-rock-stars-memory-alive/ | 
|
The source is an essay
|
 The source discusses the subject in part
|
✘ No |
| https://www.historylink.org/File/7490 |
|
This is a state archive of Washington State
|
~ | ~ Partial |
| https://www.historylink.org/File/7636 |
|
This is a state archive of Washington State
|
~ The article mentions the subject briefly | ~ Partial |
| This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{ source assess table}}. | ||||
Originally I was bound to keep but after reading the wikipedia notability standards and information, AND searching google, its like this man does not exist! minimal SCOV. I can't even extract information and had to pull teeth to get this table.
Ask me about air Cryogenic air (
talk) 19:12, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
striking sock
lettherebedarklight
晚安 01:56, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- Redirect to the Ventures, most stuff about him seems to associate him with the Ventures band [1]. Oaktree b ( talk) 00:46, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
- Comment to Mr. Hamilton. Hello again. I have recorded some of the Wikipedia page in its early stages here -
Revision as of 10:48, 16 June 2018 before any other editors had contributed. I'll explain more later about that. Anyway, I stand by my assertion that you are a notable figure as I know a bit about
Surf music as well as having an interest in it. In the process of research, I learnt about the contribution both you and your brother
Dan had made to the genre. I do believe some editors are a bit heavy-handed and sometimes overlook some things that show an article to be notable in favor of a technicality. Sometimes they view it in a robotic way.
Now I know that just having been married to Caroline Munro, a Hammer girl, Bond girl in the past doesn't make you notable. We know that! But you have made a notable contribution to the music of California and your work in film adds to that!
What could help this along is if you have kept any newspaper or magazine articles that are not accessible via google. I can't recall what it was but some time back a film or actor was said by some Wikipedia editors to be non-notable. Well, digging up some film magazines proved it the case to be otherwise. Then article wasn't deleted.
The alternative to deletion is a redirect and in many cases articles should have been redirected rather than deleted. Sadly, with some the short term and easy solution is all they think of. And sometimes it can be understandable with some when they spend a lot of time editing and are fatigued. Again, I say that your page should be a KEEP but if not, then a redirect to the Dan Hamilton or the T-Bones page would be a solution for now as it would preserve the edit history and then at a later date a discussion can be started to re-open it up with additional info on you to support that. So, magazine clippings with dates and news articles with dates would help. I don't need any convincing that you are notable! Now someone said that " its like this man does not exist!" Well, I can see that you exist ( Google), ( Bing), and the article in its raw stage here, - Revision as of 10:48, 16 June 2018 shows that. Also this recent article below
* Superstar in a Masquerade, by William Sargent · 2021, ISBN:9781646288960, 1646288963 - Judd Hamilton ... shows that! It shows that you were / are a part of the Californian music history. Without your contribution, the classic "Wax 'em Down". *, * wouldn't have been what it was. Anyway, see what you can dig up. Cheers Karl Twist ( talk) 06:20, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- Note that this book is published by a vanity press, Page Publishing, and therefore is unlikely to be considered a reliable source. However, I do see that it has been added to the collections of a few libraries, so that's a bit of a plus. Still, self-published materials do not go far in establishing notability. Lamona ( talk) 17:05, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- I can't thank you enough Karl, as I remain flabbergasted in having to defend the factual truth about what I have and haven't done in my bygone 60's, 70's 80's music / film career. Including co-starring in (whatever that means?) and co-producing as couple of the films and the 1980 Sci-Fi Film Awards TV special. All to my continuing amazement appearing and reappearing on the Internet simply by placing Judd Hamilton in a Google search engine. To which one of the depletion commentators insists is not the case to the point he wonders if I actually exist? Hmmmm, okay 'nuff said on that level of negatively motivated critique.
- As far as published articles I recently had reason to recheck a 2008 Pipeline magazine article (a London published mag) to which the cover can be viewed by Internet-ing the English Pipeline magazine and in the search section putting in Judd & Danny Hamilton. Quite an extensive interview was published confirming pretty much everything the Wikipedia page relays. An article I just learned I can't share as I'm not logged in and don't know and/or remember how to log in.
- On that note, having in the early 2000's been encouraged to create a Wikipedia page and then learning if the principle is also the author that is seriously looked down upon and indeed my personally created page was deleted. And I left it at that until a few years ago I stumbled onto the present, appreciatively authored by whom (?) page. To this day I don't know who provided the present and rather in-depth Wikipedia info. And yes, as is also being critiqued, as the principle with my reputation at stake I have subsequently corrected a few things here and there within the present page simply to make sure everything was factual.
- Including as the present page is 40-year old stuff, about a year ago wanting to update with my 21st Century invention based activities and bam once again what I expressed in a couple of sentences as Current Activities was perceived by one of the Wiki editors to be self-promoting BS and deleted. And...., once again I bluntly learned that personal albeit provably factual present day career insertions are seriously frowned on. Even though all the so-called critic had to do was google search Judd Hamilton Inventions to factually confirm what I tried to update. https://patents.justia.com/inventor/judd-hamilton
- So again Karl, thank you for bringing a ray of light into this otherwise rather depressing and even more disappointing reputation polluting debate, predicated on 'this guy is so undocumented and unworthy he doesn't even exist'. Sure, maybe I haven't done anything that special while helping more than a few to do so including my beloved brother Dan. And yeah, one day I will no longer exist but as we move into 2023 and given all the stuff that comes up on a Judd Hamilton google search (again to my amazement) not a rational assumption, much less a fair and reasonable conclusion? Okay, Onward to what will be will be.... 2601:601:D02:2120:91FE:4C93:AE86:3738 ( talk) 09:31, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
I need proof! I know you are happy with your celebrity crush Karl, but for me all I see are LastFM, and I tried! I did! (also again, 1 page in a long book is pushing notability! So again, you are not helping this. Ask me about air Cryogenic air ( talk) 17:33, 10 January 2023 (UTC)striking sock lettherebedarklight 晚安 02:00, 16 January 2023 (UTC)- Who are you Cryogenic Air? Your seriously defaming comments have moved beyond insulting and in fact damaging enough to elicit a defamation action! All you have to do is Google Judd Hamilton to view multiple pages of info. All pretty much reporting the same truth about my 60's, 70's 80's music / film endeavors. With the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth BEING THE FACTUAL TRUTH! So what is your argument meant to accomplish other than insultingly distorting the truth? And within your anonymously disguised attacks why are you being so uninformative and negative?
- Bottom-line: Wikipedia management officials please understand; when my name is searched for the most part the first reference that appears is the Wikipedia page. Accordingly, the only reason I'm entering into this insulting deletion debate is to protect my reputation from the embarrassing 'this page is being considered for deletion' notice instigated by anonymous naysayers. While I seriously appreciate the intercession of Karl Twist and those who have actually and factually bothered to investigate what this Cryogenic Air misfit and other anonymous complainers are blatantly and purposefully misrepresenting. Accordingly, please interceded and dismiss this cruel distortion of the easily accessed truth about my 60's, 70's, into the 80's music / film work.
2601:601:D02:2120:A586:BBFD:9F2B:439F (
talk) 21:27, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- As I earlier referred to - the British 2008 Pipeline magazine link:
http://www.pipelinemag.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/77big.jpg
2601:601:D02:2120:A586:BBFD:9F2B:439F (
talk) 21:47, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- @ 2601:601:D02:2120:A586:BBFD:9F2B:439F please understand that having a Wikipedia article nominated for deletion is in no way an insult towards your work or creations--it is simply a discussion as to whether a page is notable for Wikipedia. Please don't take this personally, nobody here has anything against you, nobody is complaining about you. TheManInTheBlackHat (Talk) 17:03, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
WP:Legal and that is my only warning for that. Defamation is a legal term.Also WP:COI please read up on these policies. Ask me about air Cryogenic air ( talk) 14:15, 11 January 2023 (UTC)striking sock lettherebedarklight 晚安 02:00, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- As I earlier referred to - the British 2008 Pipeline magazine link:
http://www.pipelinemag.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/77big.jpg
2601:601:D02:2120:A586:BBFD:9F2B:439F (
talk) 21:47, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- Quick update Karl, in looking at the early link - Revision as of 10:48, 16 June 2018 - there is a glaring mistake stating I attended Amherst University and became an engineer. Not even remotely true so not sure how that untrue assertion was included in 2018 page, while remaining info seems accurate to the times and present page.
- With that update, thanks again for your objectively determined observations and Onward to what will hopefully re: the embarrassing deletion notice be determined honestly and factually. However long ago said factual information has been collaborated via amongst other sources the numerous references at the bottom of the page. With Del Halderman's "The Ventures, Walk Don't Run" book being one of the factually recorded references to The ventures and particularly Bob Bogle mentoring me as a recording artist, record producer.
- Leading to bringing Dan down to LA in '63, introducing him to The Ventures and my younger brother composing an instrumental, "Diamond Head", that became Japan's first million-selling single. With The Ventures going on to become the biggest selling instrumental group in recorded history. Just for starters. With the book documenting, again to my amazement, a continuing Hamilton Brothers analog of those early 60's times. Producing The Avantis' "Wax 'Em Down" single and numerous other recording with friends such as Dave Gates, Leon Russell, Danny Whitten, Glen Campbell, and the Wrecking Crew influenced list goes on.
- Inclusive, as the Halderman book unfolds, moving The Hamilton into the mid-late 60's The-Bones gig and on into the early 70's and reforming as Hamilton, Joe Frank & Reynolds (later Dennison), leading to the multi-million selling singles "Don't Pull Your Love Out" & "Fallin' in Love". During those times having completed filming "A Talent For Loving" in Spain and road weary, I was living in London and helping Dan and the guys from behind the scenes. Thus, I would Venture to guess not exactly trivial stuff? But who knows as in this chaotic world what's trivial to one human being can also be interesting to another.
- Ah, but according to the naysayers that suddenly appeared on New Year's Day out of nowhere, I'm not, nor is anyone featured on Wikipedia, allowed to autobiographically share what we have personally lived and witnessed 'for real'. Thus, the fact that anyone's honor can be anonymously subjected to provably unwarranted, demeaning, public witnessed accusations that seriously dishonor the witnessed truth continues to amaze actually stun me. So...., once again Onward to what will or will not be fairly decided in resolving this attempted reputation destroying matter!
2601:601:D02:2120:A586:BBFD:9F2B:439F (
talk) 07:17, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
Ah, but according to the naysayers that suddenly appeared on New Year's Day out of nowhere, I'm not, nor is anyone featured on Wikipedia, allowed to autobiographically share what we have personally lived and witnessed 'for real'.
- This is correct, and there's a very good reason: we cannot verify any of that independently. Further, we cannot even verify if you are who you claim to be. While that seems likely in this instance, we don't just add things because someone claims they are true: we rely on third-party, reliable sources, so that our readers can check for their accuracy on their own.
- If we did not do that, anyone could use Wikipedia to declare anything, and the site would not be reputable at all. Or they could even pretend to be you, and insert actual defamatory material into the article! So we need to see this information in other sources with a reputation for fact-checking, in order to include that material here. — The Hand That Feeds You: Bite 16:04, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- Assuming the article is kept, if you are interested in providing a WP:LEADIMAGE for this article, tell me on my talk page and I'll try to guide you for the process. Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 17:34, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- Weak
deleteKeep I can find only nominal sources. First, the Discogs, IMDB, and 45Cat are not wp:rs, but in any case those only list the records and films and do not provide any biographical information. The three books listed here are all self-published, so those do not support notability. Billboard is a reliable source but I can't tell if any of the recordings charted, which is what we would need. There are mentions, such as the Billboard mention "... has finished his first American International Picture..." but nothing more extensive. If we were to remove the unreliable sources we would be left with very little. I'll swing back by to see if anyone has had more success. Lamona ( talk) 02:23, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- I've changed to weak keep because of the large number of sources that Karl Twist has found. I think that due to the age of these events/products and the time that has passed, the plethora of mentions could be considered sufficient for GNG. Lamona ( talk) 18:46, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- @ Lamona: - Reply to above, Hi I have gotten rid of most of the 45cat and Discogs references. Replaced them with more acceptable refs. In doing so I realized that Judd Hamilton had been a member of three notable surf bands, 2 of which were big. The T-Bones and The Marketts. I should have brought this up earlier, but it slipped my mind I'm ashamed to say. Anyway, I put in a good amount of work to clean up the refs. Cheers Karl Twist ( talk) 07:51, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- Delete: Like the other Delete voters, I'm only seeing casual mentions out of any reliable source, and the "substantial coverage" of the subject required by the GNG out of none. Nor do I support a redirect, per WP:XY -- there's no one target that makes any more sense than any other (his brother's? The T-Bones? Munro's?). Nor am I at all concerned with issues concerning the "honor" of the IP who claims to be the subject -- last I checked, dueling was still illegal in the United States, and "defending" or "protecting" someone's "honor" forms no part of any Wikipedia policy or notability guideline. Perhaps the IP could reflect upon the fact that one of the reasons he's found Wikipedia to be such a useful resource over the years is that we just don't accept hearsay in articles, but rely upon documented facts from reliable, independent, third-party sources. Ravenswing 16:16, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- Comment Here are 2
[2]
[3] better-than-passing-mention refs that may indicate more can be found. You need WP-library access for the second one. Considering the span of his career, sources may require digging, even going
WP:OFFLINE.
Gråbergs Gråa Sång (
talk) 16:56, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- One more
[4]
Gråbergs Gråa Sång (
talk) 17:09, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- Mm, I disagree, after reading them: they are exactly casual mentions, or consist of quotes from Hamilton, rather than indepth coverage of him. I congratulate you for your effort in turning these obscure sources up, but there's just not enough there there.
Ravenswing 22:55, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- We disagree on that, IMO these clearly counts towards WP:N. They may not be enough, but they add to the case for inclusion. "Casual" is not a word I would use. There are indeed a lot of quotes in the Twilight Zone article, but it's a long text and significant other stuff there too. Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 06:58, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- Mm, I disagree, after reading them: they are exactly casual mentions, or consist of quotes from Hamilton, rather than indepth coverage of him. I congratulate you for your effort in turning these obscure sources up, but there's just not enough there there.
Ravenswing 22:55, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- One more
[4]
Gråbergs Gråa Sång (
talk) 17:09, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- Merge and Redirect to The Ventures (or TNT if not). GenQuest "scribble" 17:52, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- I don't have any "keep" or "delete" opinion, but I would ask Mr Hamilton to consider that his posts here do more to damage his reputation than a simple temporary notice in the article that this discussion is taking place.
Phil Bridger (
talk) 17:50, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- Yeah, I think with the latest screed -- at the bottom of the page -- a rangeblock on the IP for persistent legal threats is appropriate. Ravenswing 02:20, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- Delete: The coverage I am finding is mostly passing mentions or comes from sources that are not considered reliable. I don't see them as being notable enough to have their own standalone article at this point in time. As mentioned by Ravenswing, there's no one target that makes any more sense than any other, so deletion is my vote over redirect. Hey man im josh ( talk) 19:21, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- Delete Non-notable individual, per others' arguments here.
ValarianB (
talk) 20:17, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- To Whom It May Concern,
- I have tolerated all of the insulting, dishonorable comments I will ever again accept. Either 'immediately' remove the defamation laced deletion notice, or remove the page. Failing to not 'immediately' removing the deletion notice or removing the now seriously embarrassing page I will turn this matter over to my legal counsel for consideration to institute a defamation law suit. Judd Hamilton
2601:601:D02:2120:AD85:6790:8A90:22A5 (
talk) 00:20, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- yeaaaaa, there's the legal threat. lettherebedarklight 晚安 03:29, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- Delete – I fail to find any sourcing that would help towards WP:ANYBIO. -- bonadea contributions talk 06:48, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- Comment,. further info to prove notability. Hamilton was a member of two notable groups which prove notability, The Marketts and The T-Bones. (a thank you to User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång for posting the link (at 17:09, 11 January 2023) and taking the time to do research) Also by technicality, Hamilton was an ad-hoch member of Hamilton, Joe Frank & Reynolds. He was certainly responsible for the early founding of the group. The roots if you like! Also thanks to his post here, I looked at the magazine, Pipeline #77, The Avantis – The T-Bones – The Ventures – all part of the Judd & Danny Hamilton Story. That further proves his contribution to the Surf Music Genre. Karl Twist ( talk) 11:07, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- Keep. Meets WP:MUSICBIO as "a reasonably prominent member of two or more independently notable ensembles" ( T-Bones, Avantis). There's also his time as a record company A&R man, screenwriting credit and a couple of acting stints documented in WP:RS to establish independent notability beyond the groups he has been associated with. Also agree with Gråbergs Gråa Sång above – you can't expect sources about someone who started his career more than fifty years ago, thirty years before the invention of the WWW, to fall into your lap with a quick Google News search. -- Andreas JN 466 11:24, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- I actually had a hit at JSTOR, but it doesn't really help.
Gråbergs Gråa Sång (
talk) 12:03, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure more could be found. For example, checking the Newspaper Archive, the Cedar Rapids Gazette, October 25, 1968, has a little article in its Hollywood column on "Pop Singer Judd Hamilton, making his movie debut in Walter Shenson's 'A Talent for Loving', adding that people would hear him "warble three tunes in the sex comedy". This is an RS for a passage currently just sourced to FilmAffinity. Finding those old sources takes time, but I reckon they exist and notability doesn't mind if a source is sixty years old. Andreas JN 466 14:29, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- Note to Mr. Hamilton. I have posted a message on your User talk:2601:601:D02:2120:A586:BBFD:9F2B:439F page. Best to post any future remarks there or on my talk ( User talk:Karl Twist) page. Karl Twist ( talk) 13:06, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- At AfD, there are often excuses for why proper sourcing cannot be found. It's an ongoing fallacy an unfortunate number of people have that such excuses mean that the provisions of WP:V and WP:N should be waived in the subjects' favor. The real answer is "Then an article on the subject cannot be sustained." Ravenswing 17:54, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- Keep meets
WP:GNG--not by much, but it's possible to write a policy-compliant biography of the subject based on these sources posted by GGS above:
Twilight Zone 1982,
Spokesman-Review 1995,
Song Hits Magazine 1966, and the little bit from music historian
Peter Blecha's 2005 essay. Aside from that, he's had multiple hits that charted (a No. 1, No. 3, and No. 4), and been a member of multiple notable groups, plus he's made notable films, so he's hitting multiple
WP:NMUSIC and
WP:NCREATIVE criteria--which, alone, wouldn't be enough for me to !vote 'keep', but here we have someone who has demonstrated, verifiable accomplishments in the relevant field that meet multiple
WP:SNG criteria, plus enough
WP:GNG coverage to be able to write at least a short biography article, plus there is no obvious redirect target because he's been part of multiple notable groups/works. So, per
WP:PAGEDECIDE, the best place for the
verifiable information about him is in a stand-alone article. A final 'plus': I am confident that a thorough search of historical newspaper archives would turn up more, based on what's already been digitized and posted on the internet. Also, everyone should ignore the now-blocked IP address that claims to be the subject, as we have no way to verify who that really is.
Levivich (
talk) 18:26, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- Well, there's also WP:BLPKINDNESS to consider (and I don't mean stop the afd on the IP:s say-so). Sure, we don't know, but it's not implausible, and the reaction, though not helpful, is understandable and not unique. [5]. But this is probably moot by now. Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 18:41, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- Keep. Wasn't that IP rude!!. - Roxy the dog 18:31, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- Keep per Levivich. Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 18:46, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- Keep, with the new sources found by Levivich, it seems like it can barely pass GNG. LilianaUwU ( talk / contribs) 08:26, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Some sources have been put forward in the last few comments that would a priori appear to count toward notability; relisting to allow discussion of these.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Vanamonde ( Talk) 22:59, 15 January 2023 (UTC)- Again? TBH, I was hoping for at least a "no consensus" keep closure.
Gråbergs Gråa Sång (
talk) 08:19, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- Hi Gråbergs Gråa Sång, I was thinking the same thing. Possibly that person who has been making mischief has distorted or helped to distort the view of things. Maybe? Anyway, I see they've been crossed off. Karl Twist ( talk) 03:42, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
- Again? TBH, I was hoping for at least a "no consensus" keep closure.
Gråbergs Gråa Sång (
talk) 08:19, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- Weak keep per Andreas and Levivich. The article is now supported by just enough reliable secondary sources to qualify as a borderline GNG pass. A. Randomdude0000 ( talk) 21:23, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. (non-admin closure) Linguist111 ( talk) 02:57, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
Judd Hamilton
AfDs for this article:
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- Judd Hamilton ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
sources consist of 45cat (unreliable), discogs ( unreliable), a whole bunch of primary sources, and unrelated sources. lettherebedarklight 晚安 13:43, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the
deletion sorting lists for the following topics:
Bands and musicians and
United States of America.
lettherebedarklight
晚安 13:43, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
- To Whom it May Concern
- If the embarrassing, ridiculous deletion notice is not immediately removed permanently remove my Wikipedia page. Judd Hamilton 2601:601:D02:2120:F9AB:D435:CBF4:D7E1 ( talk) 16:54, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the
deletion sorting lists for the following topics:
Actors and filmmakers and
Washington.
Spiderone
(Talk to Spider) 13:54, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
- Hello,
- As I recently had cause to share my appreciated Wikipedia page I was a bit shocked to see said page is being considered for deletion? Having previously created a Wikipedia article in the early 2000's not knowing doing so may have violated Wikipedia practices said version was deleted. Subsequently I was made aware that a new Judd Hamilton Wikipedia page had been created by whom I'm not aware that to my surprise reasonably accurately chronicled my showbiz career. Having not created the existing page I did manage to edit some areas into a more accurate recollection, simply to keep the information 100% factual. Thus, I can confirm everything currently being stated is absolutely truthful and accurate to the multiple included references.
- Accordingly, in respecting the great work Wikipedia contributes to providing uniquely useful information I'm wondering why the current Judd Hamilton page, created by a knowledgeable unknown author, is now being considered for deletion. In this regard, about 1-year ago I realized one of the volunteer Wikipedia editors had taken exception to a Current Activities section I had added to bring the article up to date and a rather contentious written debate ensued. After which said editor arbitrarily removed the Current Activities section as the only section that I personal contributed. I tried to report this contentious debate to the Wikipedia management people but received no reply.
- So with this latest possible deletion notice being unexpectedly attached at the top of the page I'm hoping that you may be able to investigate the erroneous contentions once again being made by a volunteer editor. And in doing so help me resolve any misunderstandings relative the article portraying the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. As it currently does with extensive references already included. Simply because my reputation is once again at stake. Also, while at one time I was able to log in to make any needed factual adjustments, I have since lost the log in information.
- Thanking you in advance for any help you can provide, Judd Hamilton
2601:601:D02:2120:F9AB:D435:CBF4:D7E1 (
talk) 05:20, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
- As a follow up, the previous contentious volunteer Wikipedia editor was Mako001. Again seriously hoping you can resolve this latest worrying page deletion threat. Best Regards, Judd Hamilton 2601:601:D02:2120:F9AB:D435:CBF4:D7E1 ( talk) 06:05, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
- Keep, Notable subject. Hamilton played an important role in the surf music genre. He worked as an arranger on some surf records that were hits in California and became classics. With regard to the above, the assessment is incorrect. The sources for the discography are from 45cat and discogs. Yes, but that doesn't make the subject non-notable. Those sections just need to improve. The music-trade magazine sources are reliable. The article has also been changed an edited by some people over a period of time and these other edits weren't referenced properly. Karl Twist ( talk) 05:08, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
Where are these sources? They don't come up in a casual news source. Even in the book search its incidental coverage (Judd's wife might be notable as she was a Bond Girl according to one, and the horror articles are the IMBD of the day saying "yes Judd was in this low budget movie" an effective stubb without context. Ask me about air Cryogenic air ( talk) 19:18, 8 January 2023 (UTC)striking sock lettherebedarklight 晚安 02:00, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- Note to closing admin - Hi, if by some small chance this item is leaning towards deletion, is it possible that we could have this re-directed to the
The T-Bones or
Dan Hamilton page please? There's a lot of work done between the two of them. Thanks.
Karl Twist (
talk) 09:15, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
- Hello Karl, I appreciate your comments regarding the ridiculous, embarrassing, unwarranted deletion notice that has appeared on my Wikipedia page. As everything stated is factual and true, i.e. I have made sure the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth is stated I am stunned that a deletion notice would appear. Therefore, I have notified one of the volunteer editors if this reputation destroying notice is not immediately removed I want the Judd Hamilton page permanently removed. Having until recently seriously appreciated the I thought good work Wikipedia appears to do in providing useful information, having previously found a so-called editor was removing information I began to seriously question Wikipedias arbitrarily enacted editing process and accordingly my opinion of Wikipedia is fast dwindling into disrespect for the systems arbitrary, anyone can alter and/or have truthfully enacted articles removed. So again thanks for your opinion, hoping this embarrassing deletion notice can be immediately removed to protect my reputation and if not as stated and however it can be done I need the Judd Hamilton page removed. Thanks for any help in this regard, Judd Hamilton
2601:601:D02:2120:F9AB:D435:CBF4:D7E1 (
talk) 17:21, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
- Hi Mr. Hamilton, I hope that the page will be saved. I don't think that it should have been nominated for deletion. I'll talk more later.
Karl Twist (
talk) 07:01, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you, Thank you Karl. I'm still trying to figure out what the person who installed this deletion notice based their complaint on? Inclusive of the factual information recorded by whomever initially created the page that has always been been appreciated solely relates to the 60's, 70's, into the 80's music, film work I did.
- As previously stated, when last year I tried to personally update to the current material science, radiation shielding invention work that occupies my full time efforts that I expressed in a couple of sentences, a volunteer editor Mako001 suddenly appeared forbidding said inclusion as nothing more than self-promotion, removed the Current Activities info, and somehow personally placed a 6-month prohibition for me being able to access Wikipedia should there have needed to be a factual correction or update. A basically anonymous person can make those decisions?
- And now as I hit my 81st lap my inventions activities are speeding into increasing attention and as of the past few days whenever anyone places my name in a search engine the first or one of the first articles that appears is the Wikipedia page. With several people thinking, "Judd, is all of this Wikipedia information phony, a lie?" Thus, from a character demeaning point of view I'm still flabbergasted this type of embarrassing situation could even remotely happen when an article is provably and evidentially referenced?
- Anyway, I won't go on, again thanks for your hopeful intercession and onward to see what happens or doesn't happen next. Especially as over the years Wikipedia has been one of my main, seriously appreciated raw material research references to which I will always be grateful as said science based info helped me achieve multiple world patents. Which of course according to Mako001's authority said current activity info is forbidden as self-serving, self-promotional nonsense. While most of the records and films I was long ago involved with are still being sold on the Internet? And even though I don't receive anything from whomever sells said material I'm pleasantly amazed projects and records I long ago forgot about have been preserved on the Internet? Hmmm, Judd 2601:601:D02:2120:2D85:C84E:EE00:4AF0 ( talk) 09:13, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
- Hi Mr. Hamilton, I hope that the page will be saved. I don't think that it should have been nominated for deletion. I'll talk more later.
Karl Twist (
talk) 07:01, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
- Hello Karl, I appreciate your comments regarding the ridiculous, embarrassing, unwarranted deletion notice that has appeared on my Wikipedia page. As everything stated is factual and true, i.e. I have made sure the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth is stated I am stunned that a deletion notice would appear. Therefore, I have notified one of the volunteer editors if this reputation destroying notice is not immediately removed I want the Judd Hamilton page permanently removed. Having until recently seriously appreciated the I thought good work Wikipedia appears to do in providing useful information, having previously found a so-called editor was removing information I began to seriously question Wikipedias arbitrarily enacted editing process and accordingly my opinion of Wikipedia is fast dwindling into disrespect for the systems arbitrary, anyone can alter and/or have truthfully enacted articles removed. So again thanks for your opinion, hoping this embarrassing deletion notice can be immediately removed to protect my reputation and if not as stated and however it can be done I need the Judd Hamilton page removed. Thanks for any help in this regard, Judd Hamilton
2601:601:D02:2120:F9AB:D435:CBF4:D7E1 (
talk) 17:21, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
- Follow up comment to my Note to closing admin post, 09:15, 3 January 2023. With a re-direct, the unique history is preserved. Thanks Karl Twist ( talk) 07:03, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Note to participants: whether or not we have a Wikipedia article is determined based on notability, usually demonstrated by substantive coverage in multiple, independent, reliable sources. It has nothing to do with the accuracy of what is currently on the page. As things stand very little of the commentary directly impinges on whether we should keep the page.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Vanamonde ( Talk) 18:10, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
- Delete
Source assessment table: prepared by
User:WngLdr34
| ||||
| Source | Independent? | Reliable? | Significant coverage? | Count source toward GNG? |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| https://www.spokesman.com/stories/1995/jan/05/music-still-keeps-late-rock-stars-memory-alive/ |
|
The source is an essay
|
The source discusses the subject in part
|
✘ No |
| https://www.historylink.org/File/7490 |
|
This is a state archive of Washington State
|
~ | ~ Partial |
| https://www.historylink.org/File/7636 |
|
This is a state archive of Washington State
|
~ The article mentions the subject briefly | ~ Partial |
| This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{ source assess table}}. | ||||
Originally I was bound to keep but after reading the wikipedia notability standards and information, AND searching google, its like this man does not exist! minimal SCOV. I can't even extract information and had to pull teeth to get this table.
Ask me about air Cryogenic air (
talk) 19:12, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
striking sock
lettherebedarklight
晚安 01:56, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- Redirect to the Ventures, most stuff about him seems to associate him with the Ventures band [1]. Oaktree b ( talk) 00:46, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
- Comment to Mr. Hamilton. Hello again. I have recorded some of the Wikipedia page in its early stages here -
Revision as of 10:48, 16 June 2018 before any other editors had contributed. I'll explain more later about that. Anyway, I stand by my assertion that you are a notable figure as I know a bit about
Surf music as well as having an interest in it. In the process of research, I learnt about the contribution both you and your brother
Dan had made to the genre. I do believe some editors are a bit heavy-handed and sometimes overlook some things that show an article to be notable in favor of a technicality. Sometimes they view it in a robotic way.
Now I know that just having been married to Caroline Munro, a Hammer girl, Bond girl in the past doesn't make you notable. We know that! But you have made a notable contribution to the music of California and your work in film adds to that!
What could help this along is if you have kept any newspaper or magazine articles that are not accessible via google. I can't recall what it was but some time back a film or actor was said by some Wikipedia editors to be non-notable. Well, digging up some film magazines proved it the case to be otherwise. Then article wasn't deleted.
The alternative to deletion is a redirect and in many cases articles should have been redirected rather than deleted. Sadly, with some the short term and easy solution is all they think of. And sometimes it can be understandable with some when they spend a lot of time editing and are fatigued. Again, I say that your page should be a KEEP but if not, then a redirect to the Dan Hamilton or the T-Bones page would be a solution for now as it would preserve the edit history and then at a later date a discussion can be started to re-open it up with additional info on you to support that. So, magazine clippings with dates and news articles with dates would help. I don't need any convincing that you are notable! Now someone said that " its like this man does not exist!" Well, I can see that you exist ( Google), ( Bing), and the article in its raw stage here, - Revision as of 10:48, 16 June 2018 shows that. Also this recent article below
* Superstar in a Masquerade, by William Sargent · 2021, ISBN:9781646288960, 1646288963 - Judd Hamilton ... shows that! It shows that you were / are a part of the Californian music history. Without your contribution, the classic "Wax 'em Down". *, * wouldn't have been what it was. Anyway, see what you can dig up. Cheers Karl Twist ( talk) 06:20, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- Note that this book is published by a vanity press, Page Publishing, and therefore is unlikely to be considered a reliable source. However, I do see that it has been added to the collections of a few libraries, so that's a bit of a plus. Still, self-published materials do not go far in establishing notability. Lamona ( talk) 17:05, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- I can't thank you enough Karl, as I remain flabbergasted in having to defend the factual truth about what I have and haven't done in my bygone 60's, 70's 80's music / film career. Including co-starring in (whatever that means?) and co-producing as couple of the films and the 1980 Sci-Fi Film Awards TV special. All to my continuing amazement appearing and reappearing on the Internet simply by placing Judd Hamilton in a Google search engine. To which one of the depletion commentators insists is not the case to the point he wonders if I actually exist? Hmmmm, okay 'nuff said on that level of negatively motivated critique.
- As far as published articles I recently had reason to recheck a 2008 Pipeline magazine article (a London published mag) to which the cover can be viewed by Internet-ing the English Pipeline magazine and in the search section putting in Judd & Danny Hamilton. Quite an extensive interview was published confirming pretty much everything the Wikipedia page relays. An article I just learned I can't share as I'm not logged in and don't know and/or remember how to log in.
- On that note, having in the early 2000's been encouraged to create a Wikipedia page and then learning if the principle is also the author that is seriously looked down upon and indeed my personally created page was deleted. And I left it at that until a few years ago I stumbled onto the present, appreciatively authored by whom (?) page. To this day I don't know who provided the present and rather in-depth Wikipedia info. And yes, as is also being critiqued, as the principle with my reputation at stake I have subsequently corrected a few things here and there within the present page simply to make sure everything was factual.
- Including as the present page is 40-year old stuff, about a year ago wanting to update with my 21st Century invention based activities and bam once again what I expressed in a couple of sentences as Current Activities was perceived by one of the Wiki editors to be self-promoting BS and deleted. And...., once again I bluntly learned that personal albeit provably factual present day career insertions are seriously frowned on. Even though all the so-called critic had to do was google search Judd Hamilton Inventions to factually confirm what I tried to update. https://patents.justia.com/inventor/judd-hamilton
- So again Karl, thank you for bringing a ray of light into this otherwise rather depressing and even more disappointing reputation polluting debate, predicated on 'this guy is so undocumented and unworthy he doesn't even exist'. Sure, maybe I haven't done anything that special while helping more than a few to do so including my beloved brother Dan. And yeah, one day I will no longer exist but as we move into 2023 and given all the stuff that comes up on a Judd Hamilton google search (again to my amazement) not a rational assumption, much less a fair and reasonable conclusion? Okay, Onward to what will be will be.... 2601:601:D02:2120:91FE:4C93:AE86:3738 ( talk) 09:31, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
I need proof! I know you are happy with your celebrity crush Karl, but for me all I see are LastFM, and I tried! I did! (also again, 1 page in a long book is pushing notability! So again, you are not helping this. Ask me about air Cryogenic air ( talk) 17:33, 10 January 2023 (UTC)striking sock lettherebedarklight 晚安 02:00, 16 January 2023 (UTC)- Who are you Cryogenic Air? Your seriously defaming comments have moved beyond insulting and in fact damaging enough to elicit a defamation action! All you have to do is Google Judd Hamilton to view multiple pages of info. All pretty much reporting the same truth about my 60's, 70's 80's music / film endeavors. With the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth BEING THE FACTUAL TRUTH! So what is your argument meant to accomplish other than insultingly distorting the truth? And within your anonymously disguised attacks why are you being so uninformative and negative?
- Bottom-line: Wikipedia management officials please understand; when my name is searched for the most part the first reference that appears is the Wikipedia page. Accordingly, the only reason I'm entering into this insulting deletion debate is to protect my reputation from the embarrassing 'this page is being considered for deletion' notice instigated by anonymous naysayers. While I seriously appreciate the intercession of Karl Twist and those who have actually and factually bothered to investigate what this Cryogenic Air misfit and other anonymous complainers are blatantly and purposefully misrepresenting. Accordingly, please interceded and dismiss this cruel distortion of the easily accessed truth about my 60's, 70's, into the 80's music / film work.
2601:601:D02:2120:A586:BBFD:9F2B:439F (
talk) 21:27, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- As I earlier referred to - the British 2008 Pipeline magazine link:
http://www.pipelinemag.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/77big.jpg
2601:601:D02:2120:A586:BBFD:9F2B:439F (
talk) 21:47, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- @ 2601:601:D02:2120:A586:BBFD:9F2B:439F please understand that having a Wikipedia article nominated for deletion is in no way an insult towards your work or creations--it is simply a discussion as to whether a page is notable for Wikipedia. Please don't take this personally, nobody here has anything against you, nobody is complaining about you. TheManInTheBlackHat (Talk) 17:03, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
WP:Legal and that is my only warning for that. Defamation is a legal term.Also WP:COI please read up on these policies. Ask me about air Cryogenic air ( talk) 14:15, 11 January 2023 (UTC)striking sock lettherebedarklight 晚安 02:00, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- As I earlier referred to - the British 2008 Pipeline magazine link:
http://www.pipelinemag.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/77big.jpg
2601:601:D02:2120:A586:BBFD:9F2B:439F (
talk) 21:47, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- Quick update Karl, in looking at the early link - Revision as of 10:48, 16 June 2018 - there is a glaring mistake stating I attended Amherst University and became an engineer. Not even remotely true so not sure how that untrue assertion was included in 2018 page, while remaining info seems accurate to the times and present page.
- With that update, thanks again for your objectively determined observations and Onward to what will hopefully re: the embarrassing deletion notice be determined honestly and factually. However long ago said factual information has been collaborated via amongst other sources the numerous references at the bottom of the page. With Del Halderman's "The Ventures, Walk Don't Run" book being one of the factually recorded references to The ventures and particularly Bob Bogle mentoring me as a recording artist, record producer.
- Leading to bringing Dan down to LA in '63, introducing him to The Ventures and my younger brother composing an instrumental, "Diamond Head", that became Japan's first million-selling single. With The Ventures going on to become the biggest selling instrumental group in recorded history. Just for starters. With the book documenting, again to my amazement, a continuing Hamilton Brothers analog of those early 60's times. Producing The Avantis' "Wax 'Em Down" single and numerous other recording with friends such as Dave Gates, Leon Russell, Danny Whitten, Glen Campbell, and the Wrecking Crew influenced list goes on.
- Inclusive, as the Halderman book unfolds, moving The Hamilton into the mid-late 60's The-Bones gig and on into the early 70's and reforming as Hamilton, Joe Frank & Reynolds (later Dennison), leading to the multi-million selling singles "Don't Pull Your Love Out" & "Fallin' in Love". During those times having completed filming "A Talent For Loving" in Spain and road weary, I was living in London and helping Dan and the guys from behind the scenes. Thus, I would Venture to guess not exactly trivial stuff? But who knows as in this chaotic world what's trivial to one human being can also be interesting to another.
- Ah, but according to the naysayers that suddenly appeared on New Year's Day out of nowhere, I'm not, nor is anyone featured on Wikipedia, allowed to autobiographically share what we have personally lived and witnessed 'for real'. Thus, the fact that anyone's honor can be anonymously subjected to provably unwarranted, demeaning, public witnessed accusations that seriously dishonor the witnessed truth continues to amaze actually stun me. So...., once again Onward to what will or will not be fairly decided in resolving this attempted reputation destroying matter!
2601:601:D02:2120:A586:BBFD:9F2B:439F (
talk) 07:17, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
Ah, but according to the naysayers that suddenly appeared on New Year's Day out of nowhere, I'm not, nor is anyone featured on Wikipedia, allowed to autobiographically share what we have personally lived and witnessed 'for real'.
- This is correct, and there's a very good reason: we cannot verify any of that independently. Further, we cannot even verify if you are who you claim to be. While that seems likely in this instance, we don't just add things because someone claims they are true: we rely on third-party, reliable sources, so that our readers can check for their accuracy on their own.
- If we did not do that, anyone could use Wikipedia to declare anything, and the site would not be reputable at all. Or they could even pretend to be you, and insert actual defamatory material into the article! So we need to see this information in other sources with a reputation for fact-checking, in order to include that material here. — The Hand That Feeds You: Bite 16:04, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- Assuming the article is kept, if you are interested in providing a WP:LEADIMAGE for this article, tell me on my talk page and I'll try to guide you for the process. Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 17:34, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- Weak
deleteKeep I can find only nominal sources. First, the Discogs, IMDB, and 45Cat are not wp:rs, but in any case those only list the records and films and do not provide any biographical information. The three books listed here are all self-published, so those do not support notability. Billboard is a reliable source but I can't tell if any of the recordings charted, which is what we would need. There are mentions, such as the Billboard mention "... has finished his first American International Picture..." but nothing more extensive. If we were to remove the unreliable sources we would be left with very little. I'll swing back by to see if anyone has had more success. Lamona ( talk) 02:23, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- I've changed to weak keep because of the large number of sources that Karl Twist has found. I think that due to the age of these events/products and the time that has passed, the plethora of mentions could be considered sufficient for GNG. Lamona ( talk) 18:46, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- @ Lamona: - Reply to above, Hi I have gotten rid of most of the 45cat and Discogs references. Replaced them with more acceptable refs. In doing so I realized that Judd Hamilton had been a member of three notable surf bands, 2 of which were big. The T-Bones and The Marketts. I should have brought this up earlier, but it slipped my mind I'm ashamed to say. Anyway, I put in a good amount of work to clean up the refs. Cheers Karl Twist ( talk) 07:51, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- Delete: Like the other Delete voters, I'm only seeing casual mentions out of any reliable source, and the "substantial coverage" of the subject required by the GNG out of none. Nor do I support a redirect, per WP:XY -- there's no one target that makes any more sense than any other (his brother's? The T-Bones? Munro's?). Nor am I at all concerned with issues concerning the "honor" of the IP who claims to be the subject -- last I checked, dueling was still illegal in the United States, and "defending" or "protecting" someone's "honor" forms no part of any Wikipedia policy or notability guideline. Perhaps the IP could reflect upon the fact that one of the reasons he's found Wikipedia to be such a useful resource over the years is that we just don't accept hearsay in articles, but rely upon documented facts from reliable, independent, third-party sources. Ravenswing 16:16, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- Comment Here are 2
[2]
[3] better-than-passing-mention refs that may indicate more can be found. You need WP-library access for the second one. Considering the span of his career, sources may require digging, even going
WP:OFFLINE.
Gråbergs Gråa Sång (
talk) 16:56, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- One more
[4]
Gråbergs Gråa Sång (
talk) 17:09, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- Mm, I disagree, after reading them: they are exactly casual mentions, or consist of quotes from Hamilton, rather than indepth coverage of him. I congratulate you for your effort in turning these obscure sources up, but there's just not enough there there.
Ravenswing 22:55, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- We disagree on that, IMO these clearly counts towards WP:N. They may not be enough, but they add to the case for inclusion. "Casual" is not a word I would use. There are indeed a lot of quotes in the Twilight Zone article, but it's a long text and significant other stuff there too. Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 06:58, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- Mm, I disagree, after reading them: they are exactly casual mentions, or consist of quotes from Hamilton, rather than indepth coverage of him. I congratulate you for your effort in turning these obscure sources up, but there's just not enough there there.
Ravenswing 22:55, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- One more
[4]
Gråbergs Gråa Sång (
talk) 17:09, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- Merge and Redirect to The Ventures (or TNT if not). GenQuest "scribble" 17:52, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- I don't have any "keep" or "delete" opinion, but I would ask Mr Hamilton to consider that his posts here do more to damage his reputation than a simple temporary notice in the article that this discussion is taking place.
Phil Bridger (
talk) 17:50, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- Yeah, I think with the latest screed -- at the bottom of the page -- a rangeblock on the IP for persistent legal threats is appropriate. Ravenswing 02:20, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- Delete: The coverage I am finding is mostly passing mentions or comes from sources that are not considered reliable. I don't see them as being notable enough to have their own standalone article at this point in time. As mentioned by Ravenswing, there's no one target that makes any more sense than any other, so deletion is my vote over redirect. Hey man im josh ( talk) 19:21, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- Delete Non-notable individual, per others' arguments here.
ValarianB (
talk) 20:17, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- To Whom It May Concern,
- I have tolerated all of the insulting, dishonorable comments I will ever again accept. Either 'immediately' remove the defamation laced deletion notice, or remove the page. Failing to not 'immediately' removing the deletion notice or removing the now seriously embarrassing page I will turn this matter over to my legal counsel for consideration to institute a defamation law suit. Judd Hamilton
2601:601:D02:2120:AD85:6790:8A90:22A5 (
talk) 00:20, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- yeaaaaa, there's the legal threat. lettherebedarklight 晚安 03:29, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- Delete – I fail to find any sourcing that would help towards WP:ANYBIO. -- bonadea contributions talk 06:48, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- Comment,. further info to prove notability. Hamilton was a member of two notable groups which prove notability, The Marketts and The T-Bones. (a thank you to User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång for posting the link (at 17:09, 11 January 2023) and taking the time to do research) Also by technicality, Hamilton was an ad-hoch member of Hamilton, Joe Frank & Reynolds. He was certainly responsible for the early founding of the group. The roots if you like! Also thanks to his post here, I looked at the magazine, Pipeline #77, The Avantis – The T-Bones – The Ventures – all part of the Judd & Danny Hamilton Story. That further proves his contribution to the Surf Music Genre. Karl Twist ( talk) 11:07, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- Keep. Meets WP:MUSICBIO as "a reasonably prominent member of two or more independently notable ensembles" ( T-Bones, Avantis). There's also his time as a record company A&R man, screenwriting credit and a couple of acting stints documented in WP:RS to establish independent notability beyond the groups he has been associated with. Also agree with Gråbergs Gråa Sång above – you can't expect sources about someone who started his career more than fifty years ago, thirty years before the invention of the WWW, to fall into your lap with a quick Google News search. -- Andreas JN 466 11:24, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- I actually had a hit at JSTOR, but it doesn't really help.
Gråbergs Gråa Sång (
talk) 12:03, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure more could be found. For example, checking the Newspaper Archive, the Cedar Rapids Gazette, October 25, 1968, has a little article in its Hollywood column on "Pop Singer Judd Hamilton, making his movie debut in Walter Shenson's 'A Talent for Loving', adding that people would hear him "warble three tunes in the sex comedy". This is an RS for a passage currently just sourced to FilmAffinity. Finding those old sources takes time, but I reckon they exist and notability doesn't mind if a source is sixty years old. Andreas JN 466 14:29, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- Note to Mr. Hamilton. I have posted a message on your User talk:2601:601:D02:2120:A586:BBFD:9F2B:439F page. Best to post any future remarks there or on my talk ( User talk:Karl Twist) page. Karl Twist ( talk) 13:06, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- At AfD, there are often excuses for why proper sourcing cannot be found. It's an ongoing fallacy an unfortunate number of people have that such excuses mean that the provisions of WP:V and WP:N should be waived in the subjects' favor. The real answer is "Then an article on the subject cannot be sustained." Ravenswing 17:54, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- Keep meets
WP:GNG--not by much, but it's possible to write a policy-compliant biography of the subject based on these sources posted by GGS above:
Twilight Zone 1982,
Spokesman-Review 1995,
Song Hits Magazine 1966, and the little bit from music historian
Peter Blecha's 2005 essay. Aside from that, he's had multiple hits that charted (a No. 1, No. 3, and No. 4), and been a member of multiple notable groups, plus he's made notable films, so he's hitting multiple
WP:NMUSIC and
WP:NCREATIVE criteria--which, alone, wouldn't be enough for me to !vote 'keep', but here we have someone who has demonstrated, verifiable accomplishments in the relevant field that meet multiple
WP:SNG criteria, plus enough
WP:GNG coverage to be able to write at least a short biography article, plus there is no obvious redirect target because he's been part of multiple notable groups/works. So, per
WP:PAGEDECIDE, the best place for the
verifiable information about him is in a stand-alone article. A final 'plus': I am confident that a thorough search of historical newspaper archives would turn up more, based on what's already been digitized and posted on the internet. Also, everyone should ignore the now-blocked IP address that claims to be the subject, as we have no way to verify who that really is.
Levivich (
talk) 18:26, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- Well, there's also WP:BLPKINDNESS to consider (and I don't mean stop the afd on the IP:s say-so). Sure, we don't know, but it's not implausible, and the reaction, though not helpful, is understandable and not unique. [5]. But this is probably moot by now. Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 18:41, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- Keep. Wasn't that IP rude!!. - Roxy the dog 18:31, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- Keep per Levivich. Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 18:46, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- Keep, with the new sources found by Levivich, it seems like it can barely pass GNG. LilianaUwU ( talk / contribs) 08:26, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Some sources have been put forward in the last few comments that would a priori appear to count toward notability; relisting to allow discussion of these.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Vanamonde ( Talk) 22:59, 15 January 2023 (UTC)- Again? TBH, I was hoping for at least a "no consensus" keep closure.
Gråbergs Gråa Sång (
talk) 08:19, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- Hi Gråbergs Gråa Sång, I was thinking the same thing. Possibly that person who has been making mischief has distorted or helped to distort the view of things. Maybe? Anyway, I see they've been crossed off. Karl Twist ( talk) 03:42, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
- Again? TBH, I was hoping for at least a "no consensus" keep closure.
Gråbergs Gråa Sång (
talk) 08:19, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- Weak keep per Andreas and Levivich. The article is now supported by just enough reliable secondary sources to qualify as a borderline GNG pass. A. Randomdude0000 ( talk) 21:23, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.