- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. This close has no prejudice against renaming/rescoping the article, but there's insufficient consensus and it can be discussed outside of AFD. The Wordsmith Talk to me 22:39, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
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- Foreign-born Japanese ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
- Delete A page with a myriad of problems. I cannot find any information if the term "Foreign-born Japanese" is used as a distinctive category on its own. Seems like a badly written list with most content being taken from Japanese nationality law Tooncool64 ( talk) 01:52, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
- See my comment below. The term is
Diaspora.
— Maile (
talk)
01:12, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
- That's not the case. The article on Japanese diaspora is about the group of ethnic Japanese people who are in Japan (a large majority of whom are not citizens of Japan, and have never lived there), whereas this article is about the group of Japanese citizens who were not born in Japan (a large majority of whom live in Japan). Dekimasu よ! 03:37, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
- See my comment below. The term is
Diaspora.
— Maile (
talk)
01:12, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 04:38, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Japan-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 04:38, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ethnic groups-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 04:39, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 04:39, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
- Keep based on what's been said here so far. Forgive me if this is a bit
WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, but I'm not sure what the underlying problem is here. We have, for example,
List of naturalized American citizens,
List of naturalized Filipino citizens, and a massive
Category:People with acquired citizenship. This is a similar case, listing Japanese citizens who are not "ethnic Japanese" although the government of Japan does not acknowledge that such a category of people exists. Perhaps this just needs to be moved to
List of naturalized Japanese citizens, since that's also a more accurate explanation of the current article's scope?
(The current article does not, for example, appear to consider children of two Japanese parents but born outside of Japan to be "foreign-born Japanese".)Dekimasu よ! 05:39, 21 January 2024 (UTC) - Delete: would be better than just leaving the article as it stands. There are lists of people, surely not remotely complete, preceded by some totally unsourced waffle, including statements such as "Many who naturalize as Japanese also adopt a Japanese name, since names must be chosen from a list of approved kanji." which are demonstrably false (members of my family, for example). This could probably be sourced to some old book, as this may at some time have been true, but this is not a good way to make articles which anyone could consider "reliable". (All words I use with their natural English meaning not any WP:LAWYERCRAP.) Imaginatorium ( talk) 06:29, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
- Cleaned up the unsourced waffle; again, I think that a move to List of naturalized Japanese citizens is clear in scope and is not indiscriminate. Then the list would simply require expansion (probably from Category:Naturalized citizens of Japan as a start). Dekimasu よ! 07:12, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
- Delete - I think the correct term would be Diaspora. Category:Japanese diaspora by country indicates there is no way this could list all the Japanese born in other countries. The opposite topic with Category:Naturalized citizens of Japan. Not even if it just included celebrities or the like. — Maile ( talk) 01:00, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
- That's not the scope intended by this article. This article is explicitly about citizens of Japan, which is a separate topic from Japanese diaspora. In effect, since the Japanese government does not acknowledge the existence of ethnicity (and the series of articles on foreign groups in Japan also explicitly limits the scope of those articles to citizens of foreign countries, cf. Brazilians in Japan, Chinese people in Japan, Americans in Japan), deletion of this article would leave us with few places to discuss the subjects of this article as a group. If that is fine with everyone, I suppose the category will have to suffice. Dekimasu よ! 03:35, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: To discuss Dekimasu's extensive edits, and to see whether the initial issues have been resolved or can be with a rename.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Star Mississippi 22:32, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
- Keep move to List of naturalized Japanese citizens pper Dekimasu. I'm not using OTHERSTUFFEXISTS as a rationale, but Wikipedia does have lists of naturalized citizens and this could aid readers per WP:CLN as a nav list. // Timothy :: talk 01:27, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final relist. More discussion in line with the prior relisting comment would be helpful.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 03:21, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep and rename, per Dekimasu. Sorry previous closers, but I agree with everything Dekimasu has said here and see nothing further to add. -- asilvering ( talk) 04:42, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. This close has no prejudice against renaming/rescoping the article, but there's insufficient consensus and it can be discussed outside of AFD. The Wordsmith Talk to me 22:39, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Foreign-born Japanese ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
- Delete A page with a myriad of problems. I cannot find any information if the term "Foreign-born Japanese" is used as a distinctive category on its own. Seems like a badly written list with most content being taken from Japanese nationality law Tooncool64 ( talk) 01:52, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
- See my comment below. The term is
Diaspora.
— Maile (
talk)
01:12, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
- That's not the case. The article on Japanese diaspora is about the group of ethnic Japanese people who are in Japan (a large majority of whom are not citizens of Japan, and have never lived there), whereas this article is about the group of Japanese citizens who were not born in Japan (a large majority of whom live in Japan). Dekimasu よ! 03:37, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
- See my comment below. The term is
Diaspora.
— Maile (
talk)
01:12, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 04:38, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Japan-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 04:38, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ethnic groups-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 04:39, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 04:39, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
- Keep based on what's been said here so far. Forgive me if this is a bit
WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, but I'm not sure what the underlying problem is here. We have, for example,
List of naturalized American citizens,
List of naturalized Filipino citizens, and a massive
Category:People with acquired citizenship. This is a similar case, listing Japanese citizens who are not "ethnic Japanese" although the government of Japan does not acknowledge that such a category of people exists. Perhaps this just needs to be moved to
List of naturalized Japanese citizens, since that's also a more accurate explanation of the current article's scope?
(The current article does not, for example, appear to consider children of two Japanese parents but born outside of Japan to be "foreign-born Japanese".)Dekimasu よ! 05:39, 21 January 2024 (UTC) - Delete: would be better than just leaving the article as it stands. There are lists of people, surely not remotely complete, preceded by some totally unsourced waffle, including statements such as "Many who naturalize as Japanese also adopt a Japanese name, since names must be chosen from a list of approved kanji." which are demonstrably false (members of my family, for example). This could probably be sourced to some old book, as this may at some time have been true, but this is not a good way to make articles which anyone could consider "reliable". (All words I use with their natural English meaning not any WP:LAWYERCRAP.) Imaginatorium ( talk) 06:29, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
- Cleaned up the unsourced waffle; again, I think that a move to List of naturalized Japanese citizens is clear in scope and is not indiscriminate. Then the list would simply require expansion (probably from Category:Naturalized citizens of Japan as a start). Dekimasu よ! 07:12, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
- Delete - I think the correct term would be Diaspora. Category:Japanese diaspora by country indicates there is no way this could list all the Japanese born in other countries. The opposite topic with Category:Naturalized citizens of Japan. Not even if it just included celebrities or the like. — Maile ( talk) 01:00, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
- That's not the scope intended by this article. This article is explicitly about citizens of Japan, which is a separate topic from Japanese diaspora. In effect, since the Japanese government does not acknowledge the existence of ethnicity (and the series of articles on foreign groups in Japan also explicitly limits the scope of those articles to citizens of foreign countries, cf. Brazilians in Japan, Chinese people in Japan, Americans in Japan), deletion of this article would leave us with few places to discuss the subjects of this article as a group. If that is fine with everyone, I suppose the category will have to suffice. Dekimasu よ! 03:35, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: To discuss Dekimasu's extensive edits, and to see whether the initial issues have been resolved or can be with a rename.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Star Mississippi 22:32, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
- Keep move to List of naturalized Japanese citizens pper Dekimasu. I'm not using OTHERSTUFFEXISTS as a rationale, but Wikipedia does have lists of naturalized citizens and this could aid readers per WP:CLN as a nav list. // Timothy :: talk 01:27, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final relist. More discussion in line with the prior relisting comment would be helpful.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 03:21, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep and rename, per Dekimasu. Sorry previous closers, but I agree with everything Dekimasu has said here and see nothing further to add. -- asilvering ( talk) 04:42, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.