- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was Draftify to allow @ Kingsif: and the editor they identified time to sort out the athlete from the French officer. Star Mississippi 01:19, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
Armand Viguier
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- Armand Viguier ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Fails
WP:NOLYMPICS and a
WP:BEFORE gave not much more. A French general military officer with the same name seems to exist
Paradise Chronicle (
talk)
22:51, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople, Olympics, and France. Paradise Chronicle ( talk) 22:51, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- Keep Given the French general (or at least, "Armand Viguier Adjudant Maître d'Armes 23è Régiment d'Artillerie à Toulouse")
published a book on fencing in 1910,
that's probably the same person.(struck as I don't know if the nom comment was about the pilot or master-of-arms). Early modern Olympics really did have anyone enter. Kingsif ( talk) 23:05, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- For the record, I am continuing to search to check on the relation, there's enough military info it should be possible to determine. But the book author would appear to be the fencer, surely, which is likely grounds for a keep anyway. Kingsif ( talk) 23:14, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- Update: French Wikipedia has an article on the most famous soldier of the name, a highly-decorated pilot in both World Wars. I don't think someone born in 1893 (as the pilot was) is going to be a fencing master in 1900; I also don't think they're going to be a military master-of-arms in 1910, either. The Toulouse military and fencing Armand Viguier is not going to be the decorated pilot Armand Viguier, I'll separate the sources by year. Kingsif ( talk) 23:26, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
Keep, per Kingsif. BeanieFan11 ( talk) 23:08, 24 April 2023 (UTC)- Comment I don't find the general anymore, (sorry for the confusion, struck the general and adapted to military officer). But the two I found are apparently two different people. While the fencer on wikipedia died in the 1930s, the officer without a wikipedia article died in 1985. My officer would have quite a published bio though, which you can see
here.
Paradise Chronicle (
talk)
23:59, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- That looks like the pilot. I'll use that bio to exclude the sources on him from what I'm trying to gather, thanks. Kingsif ( talk) 00:39, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- Comment I don't find the general anymore, (sorry for the confusion, struck the general and adapted to military officer). But the two I found are apparently two different people. While the fencer on wikipedia died in the 1930s, the officer without a wikipedia article died in 1985. My officer would have quite a published bio though, which you can see
here.
Paradise Chronicle (
talk)
23:59, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- Comment. Neither military generals nor published authors are any more automatically notable than Olympians, and we still need qualifying sources to demonstrate notability. It should also be noted that there is a WWI fighter pilot of the same name: fr:Armand Viguier. Thanks. wjemather please leave a message... 23:31, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- More an assumption that if you were important enough in the sport to write about it a century ago, you'd be passing GNG nowadays. But honestly, the pilot (easier to separate sources as aviation and infantry are fairly distinct) is less of an issue in determining which sources are about the fencer/master-of-arms than Sartre having a character of the same name (in The Reprieve) that people won't stop critically analysing is. Kingsif ( talk) 23:41, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- If we put assumptions and assertions to one side, what sources do we have about this particular individual?
wjemather
please leave a message...
23:54, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- I'll be honest, the sources for this AfD are not my priority, and having to exclude is making it worse. I have an advantage with the other French fencer in an identity crisis just because I know about the Olympic movement guy. But even that's not my priority. I may suggest a wait, extending the time on this to gather sources while we (I?) clarify. Kingsif ( talk) 00:48, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- If we put assumptions and assertions to one side, what sources do we have about this particular individual?
wjemather
please leave a message...
23:54, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Given ongoing research
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Star Mississippi 01:41, 2 May 2023 (UTC)Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ─ The Aafī (talk) 15:02, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
- Comment As an update: the difficulty of differentiating in looking up these individuals (when there are clearly multiple) has made me feel that either draftifying for a longer process is needed (are either notable when separated is a big question) or someone more expert to do it. I have reached out to someone, but I think this should be over sooner rather than later. Kingsif ( talk) 20:16, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was Draftify to allow @ Kingsif: and the editor they identified time to sort out the athlete from the French officer. Star Mississippi 01:19, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
Armand Viguier
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Armand Viguier ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Fails
WP:NOLYMPICS and a
WP:BEFORE gave not much more. A French general military officer with the same name seems to exist
Paradise Chronicle (
talk)
22:51, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople, Olympics, and France. Paradise Chronicle ( talk) 22:51, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- Keep Given the French general (or at least, "Armand Viguier Adjudant Maître d'Armes 23è Régiment d'Artillerie à Toulouse")
published a book on fencing in 1910,
that's probably the same person.(struck as I don't know if the nom comment was about the pilot or master-of-arms). Early modern Olympics really did have anyone enter. Kingsif ( talk) 23:05, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- For the record, I am continuing to search to check on the relation, there's enough military info it should be possible to determine. But the book author would appear to be the fencer, surely, which is likely grounds for a keep anyway. Kingsif ( talk) 23:14, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- Update: French Wikipedia has an article on the most famous soldier of the name, a highly-decorated pilot in both World Wars. I don't think someone born in 1893 (as the pilot was) is going to be a fencing master in 1900; I also don't think they're going to be a military master-of-arms in 1910, either. The Toulouse military and fencing Armand Viguier is not going to be the decorated pilot Armand Viguier, I'll separate the sources by year. Kingsif ( talk) 23:26, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
Keep, per Kingsif. BeanieFan11 ( talk) 23:08, 24 April 2023 (UTC)- Comment I don't find the general anymore, (sorry for the confusion, struck the general and adapted to military officer). But the two I found are apparently two different people. While the fencer on wikipedia died in the 1930s, the officer without a wikipedia article died in 1985. My officer would have quite a published bio though, which you can see
here.
Paradise Chronicle (
talk)
23:59, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- That looks like the pilot. I'll use that bio to exclude the sources on him from what I'm trying to gather, thanks. Kingsif ( talk) 00:39, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- Comment I don't find the general anymore, (sorry for the confusion, struck the general and adapted to military officer). But the two I found are apparently two different people. While the fencer on wikipedia died in the 1930s, the officer without a wikipedia article died in 1985. My officer would have quite a published bio though, which you can see
here.
Paradise Chronicle (
talk)
23:59, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- Comment. Neither military generals nor published authors are any more automatically notable than Olympians, and we still need qualifying sources to demonstrate notability. It should also be noted that there is a WWI fighter pilot of the same name: fr:Armand Viguier. Thanks. wjemather please leave a message... 23:31, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- More an assumption that if you were important enough in the sport to write about it a century ago, you'd be passing GNG nowadays. But honestly, the pilot (easier to separate sources as aviation and infantry are fairly distinct) is less of an issue in determining which sources are about the fencer/master-of-arms than Sartre having a character of the same name (in The Reprieve) that people won't stop critically analysing is. Kingsif ( talk) 23:41, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- If we put assumptions and assertions to one side, what sources do we have about this particular individual?
wjemather
please leave a message...
23:54, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- I'll be honest, the sources for this AfD are not my priority, and having to exclude is making it worse. I have an advantage with the other French fencer in an identity crisis just because I know about the Olympic movement guy. But even that's not my priority. I may suggest a wait, extending the time on this to gather sources while we (I?) clarify. Kingsif ( talk) 00:48, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- If we put assumptions and assertions to one side, what sources do we have about this particular individual?
wjemather
please leave a message...
23:54, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Given ongoing research
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Star Mississippi 01:41, 2 May 2023 (UTC)Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ─ The Aafī (talk) 15:02, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
- Comment As an update: the difficulty of differentiating in looking up these individuals (when there are clearly multiple) has made me feel that either draftifying for a longer process is needed (are either notable when separated is a big question) or someone more expert to do it. I have reached out to someone, but I think this should be over sooner rather than later. Kingsif ( talk) 20:16, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.