This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
White slavery article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
I suggest we change the name of this page to European Slavery rather than 'white slavery' Roncon1 ( talk) 13:24, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
There is one category of White slaves missing here: the Irish who were enslaved during the Oliver Cromwell era. Is there a relevant article that can be linked to for them? Epa101 ( talk) 16:24, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
If you'd like to know where I got the idea that Cromwell had enslaved some of the Irish, it was in Clive Foss's The Tyrants book, Quercus, London, 2006, page 89: "Thousands of Irish were sent as slaves to the West Indies, and Catholic landlords were expelled in favour of Protestants." I know that The Tyrants is a populist book, but Clive Foss is a professional historian. Epa101 ( talk) 16:53, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
I'm commenting here in reply to an invitation from WLU posted on my talk page.
I agree that this topic is too large for a disambiguation page, but on the other hand, the term has been used for so many different ideas that some sort of disambiguation is needed. So I recommend using WP:Summary style, with an overview, evolution of the use of the term, and a short section for each use with links to the main articles - most uses already have Wikipedia articles, though this process might turn up some that don't. For those, the summary section could suffice for now and later new articles can be made if expansion is warranted. The section would probably best be in chronological sequence, though other schemes could work also.
Here's an initial suggestion for the layout - these are just some of the uses I've found, there are more:
Those are some initial ideas, I'll have to leave the development of the article to others for now. Hope it's helpful. -- Jack-A-Roe ( talk) 21:46, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
Could you add this good speech by Emma Goldman on the cause? http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_archives/goldman/aando/traffic.html Stars4change ( talk) 08:09, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
In regards to "...full-scale, hereditary system of slavery that had been imposed on black people in the Americas, Europe and Africa."
Slavery had long been practiced in Europe and the MidleEast before the exploration of the African continent and the discovery of the new world and the European exploitation of African people. Slavery, much it seems to the surprise of many in the US, is not restricted or dependent on racial traits.
If the intention is to be selective refer to it as African Slave Trade and start by pointing out that even before Europeans made a stride in Africa, slavery was already prevalent there, human labor was always a resource and a trade commodity. --
79.168.6.93 (
talk) 03:07, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
The traditional use of "White slavery" was a reference to sexual slavery. To suggest that this was intended to "distinguish it from the system of slavery that had been imposed on black people in the Americas" is artificial and American-centric. The terms simply refers to the taking or (White) European women by barbery and other slavers, for sexual and other purposes. 203.184.41.226 ( talk) 01:04, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
Is the term not most commonly used to refer to the racist mythology of the nineteenth century? That is, to instil irrational fear and prejudice in the mind's of white women? To damn non-white men as inherently dangerous? This seems to be the context it is most commonly used in. As with the myth of the "drug pusher" the phrase is usually placed in the mouths of characters to demonstrate their credultiy, or naivety. That is, it is such an inherently ridiculous notion that a person's alluding to it is intended to demonstrate their sheer gullibility, and lack of worldliness, if not their idiocy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.176.101.207 ( talk) 02:55, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
A respected editor has added indentured servants to the list of white "slaves." We had discussed this in another venue and decided that people who were indentured were not really slaves in the usual sense. They still had rights. They had signed a very long-term contract, usually for portage. They were not known to be (for example) sexually "used." They were beaten, but then, even older servants subject to no indenture were beaten in those days. There was a legal end to indenture; none to genuine slavery. The indenture did not apply to children born of any marriage (actually, marriage was usually not permitted under the terms of indenture, but there were probably exceptions); children of slaves were automatically slaves. So there are few, if any, similarities to slavery, and rather more similar to a modern " contract for services!" I would like to see the term rm and would have removed it myself, except out of respect for the editor who added it. Student7 ( talk) 20:34, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
As an objection to the last remark. Many slaves had rights in various cultures in the world throughout history. The idea of forced or unfree labor or being exploited is considered human trafficking and is associated with slavery. Slaves in the Ottoman Empire had limited rights, but they were still owned, even though they were not considered "property". If an indentured servant or bonded labour was contracted to work 10 years, but wanted to run away after 5, the servant could be tracked down and brought back to the property and be forced to serve the rest of his agreed terms. Many servants went into contracts not really knowing what they were getting into and for that were exploited. Roncon1 ( talk) 11:47, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
not Only "non European" Muslims.
Chad hills has it that it requires a reduction of prostitution.
They make a mirroring mistake, the true supply, is an extreme supply in penisses/cocks, and not the supply in prostitutes, which is minimal.
That same instance was used in reverse to excuse prostitution, the allegation that it supplied a required need. The need isn't there, any man being able to masterbate himself to completion, therefore that particular is not a need.
The only reality there, is a form of autism where the individual has lost contact with realities which in contemporary european societies are catered to through the use of pet/animal contact parks (with their particular forms of managing the influx of people).
There are several instances of this supply being confused, the excedent supply for what is politics being in 'sado-masochistic' 'competitve' encounters between politicians themselves, especially when that comes to subsidiation and where goes what, and whom controls this. Of that, there is an apparent endless supply.
The Chad Hills program is not much more then a social program to move one form of subsidiation from one group to another and does not solve a thing. 200.44.81.182 ( talk) 20:13, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
Why does the image of "white slavery" feature a man of Circassian background? They're a Turkic people who are from parts of Asia. Their homeland is also not in "Europe". And people always say that "Asians" aren't "white" people. I thought "white" was usually synonymous with people of "European" background. Couldn't we use an image of someone of "European" background being a slave? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:1970:51A7:D800:E1D8:F0AC:ABE4:F57 ( talk) 02:52, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
The third paragraph of § Slavic Slaves begins [boldface added]:
By the use of "though", the sentence contrasts Central Europe, Central Asia, and the Sudan desert region of Africa, on the one hand, with Northwestern Europe on the other. But in what do they contrast? The first group of three regions as the buyers of slaves versus NW Europe as their place of origin, which is not a contrast. Imagine a restaurant waiter saying "Many people come back again and again for our specialty pizzas, but you might prefer to pay with a credit card instead of cash."
I'm not confident of being able to untangle this. If anyone else has the knowledge, I hope they do it!
-- Thnidu ( talk) 04:04, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
This article goes a little too far in trying to claim that indendured servants somehow were always treated better than Africans transported over during the transatlantic slave trade. Historian David Brion Davis is one(but not the only) who has written that this is false. In many instances the slave owners did not care skin color and did not care place of origin and circumstances of situation or lenth of any contract. They would conduct a beating all the same. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.134.98.50 ( talk) 22:07, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
I think describing the slavery carried out by the Ottomans as comprehensive for all the peoples of the Middle East and North Africa is a very great injustice, as these areas were under the rule of the Ottomans, but it has nothing to do with the peoples who lived there, just as the pictures that were placed are of a person of unknown origin, so their status may also cause problems about Islamic slavery It seems that it is spreading hatred or using the word "moors" to explain that blacks enslave whites. This is not true. Barbary slavery should not be overemphasized and should be made comprehensive to all peoples of the Middle East, North Africa, or the Islamic world. Xwasx12s ( talk) 06:36, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
This article is very messy and someone needs to correct it. Barbary slavery is attributed only to the Ottomans and not to the inhabitants of North Africans people or the Middle Eastrens !! As for the Saqliba slavery, this slavery was carried out by the Arabs, not the Ottomans, or all Muslims around the world !! As for Islamic slavery on the Iberian pensula, there is no source or evidence for it. The description of the word "moor" is unknown, unless it is intended to be used for different peoples. Xwasx12s ( talk) 17:53, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
Slavery on the Iberian Peninsula did not occur at all, and there is no reference or evidence for it in the enslavement of Christians. Only the slavery of the saqaliba occurred, which was practiced by the Arabs alone, not the "Moors" in both of spain,portugal and italy Moaqasaxz12 ( talk) 23:09, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
The article contains many errors and uncoordinated merging, as Ottoman slavery has nothing to do with the inhabitants of North Africans and the Middle Eastrens !! Also, barbary slavery is Ottoman only and not Arab at all. As for the Saqliba slavery, this slavery practiced by the Arabs, not the Ottomans, is combined between the two and this is completely wrong. Nor does a European slave have the slavery of the "Moors" in the Iberian Peninsula. There is no source for it and it must be deleted. The only slavery that occurred on the Iberian Peninsula is the Saqaliba slavery that was carried out by the Arabs alone without the Ottomans or Muslims or the Moors in need of nothing but arrangement and should help me Anyone on this Moaqasaxz12 ( talk) 11:54, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
Also, the picture that he placed is of a Circassian worker and not of a European slave at all !! The article is very well messy out and should be arranged better. I need some help with that Moaqasaxz12 ( talk) 11:55, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
When free money based on ancient history?
This article fails to discuss the racial and gendered implications of "white slavery." For example, there are studies that claim that the crisis of white slavery was due to racial anxieties about white women being in close proximity to non-white men. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cjcarney ( talk • contribs) 19:36, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
"The modern legal term applies more narrowly to sexual slavery, forced prostitution and human trafficking, with less focus on the race of victims or perpetrators." To be clear, is this saying that "white slavery" is a term still used in modern law? (and in which countries?).
I'm not really sure what slavery in ancient Rome is doing in this article. The notion of "white slavery" seems quite irrelevant to how the Romans practiced slavery. I suppose it's relevant from a demographic perspective, if there's some kind of agenda-driven "hey, Europeans have been enslaved too" purpose underlying its inclusion, but the emphasis on mining and gladiators seems quite off topic. Maybe look over the main article to see whether this section makes sense both as a snapshot of Roman slavery and as part of the historical narrative of this article? Cynwolfe ( talk) 15:44, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
It seems to exist to add basis to right wing grievance claims? The whole white slave traffic section especially seems like good evidence of this. One of the images is of a Circassian, who are not European nor identify as such. Not to mention white slavery was never racialized. The page also omits the European origins of many of the Barbary pirates, and the high positions these white slaves could hold.
Again, there seems to be no Wikipedia page solely for Black slavery or Native American slavery. So what exactly is the point of this page? 98.45.183.129 ( talk) 12:37, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
White slavery article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
I suggest we change the name of this page to European Slavery rather than 'white slavery' Roncon1 ( talk) 13:24, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
There is one category of White slaves missing here: the Irish who were enslaved during the Oliver Cromwell era. Is there a relevant article that can be linked to for them? Epa101 ( talk) 16:24, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
If you'd like to know where I got the idea that Cromwell had enslaved some of the Irish, it was in Clive Foss's The Tyrants book, Quercus, London, 2006, page 89: "Thousands of Irish were sent as slaves to the West Indies, and Catholic landlords were expelled in favour of Protestants." I know that The Tyrants is a populist book, but Clive Foss is a professional historian. Epa101 ( talk) 16:53, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
I'm commenting here in reply to an invitation from WLU posted on my talk page.
I agree that this topic is too large for a disambiguation page, but on the other hand, the term has been used for so many different ideas that some sort of disambiguation is needed. So I recommend using WP:Summary style, with an overview, evolution of the use of the term, and a short section for each use with links to the main articles - most uses already have Wikipedia articles, though this process might turn up some that don't. For those, the summary section could suffice for now and later new articles can be made if expansion is warranted. The section would probably best be in chronological sequence, though other schemes could work also.
Here's an initial suggestion for the layout - these are just some of the uses I've found, there are more:
Those are some initial ideas, I'll have to leave the development of the article to others for now. Hope it's helpful. -- Jack-A-Roe ( talk) 21:46, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
Could you add this good speech by Emma Goldman on the cause? http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_archives/goldman/aando/traffic.html Stars4change ( talk) 08:09, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
In regards to "...full-scale, hereditary system of slavery that had been imposed on black people in the Americas, Europe and Africa."
Slavery had long been practiced in Europe and the MidleEast before the exploration of the African continent and the discovery of the new world and the European exploitation of African people. Slavery, much it seems to the surprise of many in the US, is not restricted or dependent on racial traits.
If the intention is to be selective refer to it as African Slave Trade and start by pointing out that even before Europeans made a stride in Africa, slavery was already prevalent there, human labor was always a resource and a trade commodity. --
79.168.6.93 (
talk) 03:07, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
The traditional use of "White slavery" was a reference to sexual slavery. To suggest that this was intended to "distinguish it from the system of slavery that had been imposed on black people in the Americas" is artificial and American-centric. The terms simply refers to the taking or (White) European women by barbery and other slavers, for sexual and other purposes. 203.184.41.226 ( talk) 01:04, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
Is the term not most commonly used to refer to the racist mythology of the nineteenth century? That is, to instil irrational fear and prejudice in the mind's of white women? To damn non-white men as inherently dangerous? This seems to be the context it is most commonly used in. As with the myth of the "drug pusher" the phrase is usually placed in the mouths of characters to demonstrate their credultiy, or naivety. That is, it is such an inherently ridiculous notion that a person's alluding to it is intended to demonstrate their sheer gullibility, and lack of worldliness, if not their idiocy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.176.101.207 ( talk) 02:55, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
A respected editor has added indentured servants to the list of white "slaves." We had discussed this in another venue and decided that people who were indentured were not really slaves in the usual sense. They still had rights. They had signed a very long-term contract, usually for portage. They were not known to be (for example) sexually "used." They were beaten, but then, even older servants subject to no indenture were beaten in those days. There was a legal end to indenture; none to genuine slavery. The indenture did not apply to children born of any marriage (actually, marriage was usually not permitted under the terms of indenture, but there were probably exceptions); children of slaves were automatically slaves. So there are few, if any, similarities to slavery, and rather more similar to a modern " contract for services!" I would like to see the term rm and would have removed it myself, except out of respect for the editor who added it. Student7 ( talk) 20:34, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
As an objection to the last remark. Many slaves had rights in various cultures in the world throughout history. The idea of forced or unfree labor or being exploited is considered human trafficking and is associated with slavery. Slaves in the Ottoman Empire had limited rights, but they were still owned, even though they were not considered "property". If an indentured servant or bonded labour was contracted to work 10 years, but wanted to run away after 5, the servant could be tracked down and brought back to the property and be forced to serve the rest of his agreed terms. Many servants went into contracts not really knowing what they were getting into and for that were exploited. Roncon1 ( talk) 11:47, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
not Only "non European" Muslims.
Chad hills has it that it requires a reduction of prostitution.
They make a mirroring mistake, the true supply, is an extreme supply in penisses/cocks, and not the supply in prostitutes, which is minimal.
That same instance was used in reverse to excuse prostitution, the allegation that it supplied a required need. The need isn't there, any man being able to masterbate himself to completion, therefore that particular is not a need.
The only reality there, is a form of autism where the individual has lost contact with realities which in contemporary european societies are catered to through the use of pet/animal contact parks (with their particular forms of managing the influx of people).
There are several instances of this supply being confused, the excedent supply for what is politics being in 'sado-masochistic' 'competitve' encounters between politicians themselves, especially when that comes to subsidiation and where goes what, and whom controls this. Of that, there is an apparent endless supply.
The Chad Hills program is not much more then a social program to move one form of subsidiation from one group to another and does not solve a thing. 200.44.81.182 ( talk) 20:13, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
Why does the image of "white slavery" feature a man of Circassian background? They're a Turkic people who are from parts of Asia. Their homeland is also not in "Europe". And people always say that "Asians" aren't "white" people. I thought "white" was usually synonymous with people of "European" background. Couldn't we use an image of someone of "European" background being a slave? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:1970:51A7:D800:E1D8:F0AC:ABE4:F57 ( talk) 02:52, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
The third paragraph of § Slavic Slaves begins [boldface added]:
By the use of "though", the sentence contrasts Central Europe, Central Asia, and the Sudan desert region of Africa, on the one hand, with Northwestern Europe on the other. But in what do they contrast? The first group of three regions as the buyers of slaves versus NW Europe as their place of origin, which is not a contrast. Imagine a restaurant waiter saying "Many people come back again and again for our specialty pizzas, but you might prefer to pay with a credit card instead of cash."
I'm not confident of being able to untangle this. If anyone else has the knowledge, I hope they do it!
-- Thnidu ( talk) 04:04, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
This article goes a little too far in trying to claim that indendured servants somehow were always treated better than Africans transported over during the transatlantic slave trade. Historian David Brion Davis is one(but not the only) who has written that this is false. In many instances the slave owners did not care skin color and did not care place of origin and circumstances of situation or lenth of any contract. They would conduct a beating all the same. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.134.98.50 ( talk) 22:07, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
I think describing the slavery carried out by the Ottomans as comprehensive for all the peoples of the Middle East and North Africa is a very great injustice, as these areas were under the rule of the Ottomans, but it has nothing to do with the peoples who lived there, just as the pictures that were placed are of a person of unknown origin, so their status may also cause problems about Islamic slavery It seems that it is spreading hatred or using the word "moors" to explain that blacks enslave whites. This is not true. Barbary slavery should not be overemphasized and should be made comprehensive to all peoples of the Middle East, North Africa, or the Islamic world. Xwasx12s ( talk) 06:36, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
This article is very messy and someone needs to correct it. Barbary slavery is attributed only to the Ottomans and not to the inhabitants of North Africans people or the Middle Eastrens !! As for the Saqliba slavery, this slavery was carried out by the Arabs, not the Ottomans, or all Muslims around the world !! As for Islamic slavery on the Iberian pensula, there is no source or evidence for it. The description of the word "moor" is unknown, unless it is intended to be used for different peoples. Xwasx12s ( talk) 17:53, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
Slavery on the Iberian Peninsula did not occur at all, and there is no reference or evidence for it in the enslavement of Christians. Only the slavery of the saqaliba occurred, which was practiced by the Arabs alone, not the "Moors" in both of spain,portugal and italy Moaqasaxz12 ( talk) 23:09, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
The article contains many errors and uncoordinated merging, as Ottoman slavery has nothing to do with the inhabitants of North Africans and the Middle Eastrens !! Also, barbary slavery is Ottoman only and not Arab at all. As for the Saqliba slavery, this slavery practiced by the Arabs, not the Ottomans, is combined between the two and this is completely wrong. Nor does a European slave have the slavery of the "Moors" in the Iberian Peninsula. There is no source for it and it must be deleted. The only slavery that occurred on the Iberian Peninsula is the Saqaliba slavery that was carried out by the Arabs alone without the Ottomans or Muslims or the Moors in need of nothing but arrangement and should help me Anyone on this Moaqasaxz12 ( talk) 11:54, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
Also, the picture that he placed is of a Circassian worker and not of a European slave at all !! The article is very well messy out and should be arranged better. I need some help with that Moaqasaxz12 ( talk) 11:55, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
When free money based on ancient history?
This article fails to discuss the racial and gendered implications of "white slavery." For example, there are studies that claim that the crisis of white slavery was due to racial anxieties about white women being in close proximity to non-white men. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cjcarney ( talk • contribs) 19:36, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
"The modern legal term applies more narrowly to sexual slavery, forced prostitution and human trafficking, with less focus on the race of victims or perpetrators." To be clear, is this saying that "white slavery" is a term still used in modern law? (and in which countries?).
I'm not really sure what slavery in ancient Rome is doing in this article. The notion of "white slavery" seems quite irrelevant to how the Romans practiced slavery. I suppose it's relevant from a demographic perspective, if there's some kind of agenda-driven "hey, Europeans have been enslaved too" purpose underlying its inclusion, but the emphasis on mining and gladiators seems quite off topic. Maybe look over the main article to see whether this section makes sense both as a snapshot of Roman slavery and as part of the historical narrative of this article? Cynwolfe ( talk) 15:44, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
It seems to exist to add basis to right wing grievance claims? The whole white slave traffic section especially seems like good evidence of this. One of the images is of a Circassian, who are not European nor identify as such. Not to mention white slavery was never racialized. The page also omits the European origins of many of the Barbary pirates, and the high positions these white slaves could hold.
Again, there seems to be no Wikipedia page solely for Black slavery or Native American slavery. So what exactly is the point of this page? 98.45.183.129 ( talk) 12:37, 8 March 2024 (UTC)