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WARNING: ACTIVE ARBITRATION REMEDIES Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Antisemitism in Poland#Article sourcing expectations (9 May 2021): The Arbitration Committee advises that administrators may impose "reliable-source consensus required" as a discretionary sanction on all articles on the topic of Polish history during World War II (1933-45), including the Holocaust in Poland. On articles where "reliable-source consensus required" is in effect, when a source that is not a high quality source (an article in a peer-reviewed scholarly journals, an academically focused book by a reputable publisher, and/or an article published by a reputable institution) is added and subsequently challenged by reversion, no editor may reinstate the source without first obtaining consensus on the talk page of the article in question or consensus about the reliability of the source in a discussion at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard. |
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This article is currently at start/C class, but could be improved to B-class if it had more (inline) citations. Additionally, there are numerous sections that are just "see also". They should be filled with content for this article to be comprehensive. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 22:15, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
The article is incomprehensible in its present form. All there is, is an out of control barrage of internal links split into superfluous themes. Unnecessary bullet points constantly break the train of thought. The article needs prose, not just "tidbits" of data. Poeticbent talk 04:40, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
When I worked on this article it was nothing more that Nazi German crimes. Due to my commitment elsewhere meant I never finished it. Thanks to Poeticbent for improving it. If you ever need me to check sources then please do ask. Jniech ( talk) 18:58, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
Article has been checked according to WikiProject article quality grading scheme in the following categories.
Thanks, Poeticbent talk 21:16, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
While it's uncontestable that the Polish people suffered terribly during the occupation of their country, this article does not appear to mention the crimes conducted by Poles. While many, many Poles sheltered or provided other forms of assistance to Jews, others actively helped with the Holocaust: [1]. The article covers repression of Poles after the war, but does not note the killings of Jewish survivors by Poles [2] or the harsh conditions suffered by the ethnic Germans who were expelled from Poland. I don't mean to suggest that there was anything which remotely approaches moral equivalence between the appalling conduct of the Germans and Soviets, but an article on "crimes" needs to acknowledge that some Poles also committed "crimes". Nick-D ( talk) 02:03, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
In the version I wrote there were sections on Polish, Jewish and Lithuanian crimes. Therefore I agree with Nick-D about crimes in the war but not post war. Jniech ( talk) 19:13, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
Few citations are needed, cite requests added. See also seems too long, please make sure there are no duplicate links and incorporate as much of it as possible into the body. Some references need proper formatting, for example [3] only has a title, ditto for [4] (which also raises a reliability flag). At least one url ref is bare. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:58, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
The article name is misleading, there are no burglaries, thefts, fraud offences etc recorded. Suggest rename to World War II war crimes in occupied Poland or similar. Jim Sweeney ( talk) 18:26, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
Gday. Per WP:LEADLENGTH an article of this size (100 kb) should have approx 3-4 paragraphs. This one only has one very short paragraph at this stage so it doesn't really summarise the article. I'm not familiar enough with the content to fix this, but if anyone else is looking for a way to assist the improvement of this article that might be a place to start. Anotherclown ( talk) 10:24, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
I have reverted the "promotion" of this article to GA status, for reasons explained here. I would ask that any discussion of this take place on the GAN talk page, not here, but I appreciate that some interested in this article may not have been aware of that discussion. J Milburn ( talk) 15:59, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
This article talks about Poles and Jews as if they were different. No matter what their religion they were all Polish. I have attempted to give some balance by using for example; "50 Poles, seven of them Jews" etc. Jim Sweeney ( talk) 21:26, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
This is a VERY big subject and will always be difficult to accomplish in one article. Can I suggest using a more summary style. There is already the Nazi crimes against the Polish nation article, which duplicates part of this one. If there was also a separate article Soviet World War II, war crimes in occupied Poland, both those articles could more easily be brought to GA standard. Then this one could, as an overview, using summary style link to the others. It could then be the lead in a three article Good Topic. Any thoughts. Jim Sweeney ( talk) 09:04, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
As I finally begin my copy-edit/proofread/peer review of this article, I'd like to thank @ Anotherclown, @ Jim Sweeney, and @ GraemeLeggett for stepping in on such short notice to help improve the article. I would have gladly helped out myself, but I was plenty busy trying to mediate an incredibly acrimonious dispute. AmericanLemming ( talk) 03:42, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
At present, I'm just listing instances of awkward and/or unclear wording that I don't know how to fix at the moment. I'm doing this as I go along so I don't forget any. AmericanLemming ( talk) 03:47, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
Resolved comments from peer review
|
---|
First third: Sections 1-3
The invasion of Poland (September 1939)
Second third Last third |
I keep thinking about the issue of listing all known incidents of civilian killings, and I admit we want to put a face on the victims. But an article isn't really the place to do that. I've said this before, but what do you think of starting an article titled [List of war crimes in occupied Poland during World War II]]? It would make this article much easier to read. AmericanLemming ( talk) 04:07, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
I think this is a good place to stop. I'm getting pretty tired, and it's going to take you a while to address my concerns above. As usual, I think some of them go beyond what' s required for GA status. Addressing them will improve the article, but are they absolutely necessary to achieve GA status? I have no idea. Probably not. But after this article's first review for GA, you may want to go beyond the GA criteria just to be on the safe side. But it's all up to you. Fixing all of these comments would take a long time. I'm just here to give you some suggestions on how to improve the article. :) AmericanLemming ( talk) 05:31, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 10:13, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
My impression from a brief perusal is that this article failed Good Article 3 years ago seemingly at least partly to placate a very combative reviewer who shortly thereafter got indefinitely banned from Wikipedia for that kind of behavior. With 3 years of subsequent mods, and that reviewer no longer a problem, is it time to renominate? (Note: I won't be doing so myself as I know far too little about the criteria, and am not particularly interested in whether it passes or fails - I'm just mildly interested in what, if anything, the fate of the article may or may not tell us about the effect of certain kinds of editor on Wikipedia). Tlhslobus ( talk) 23:06, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
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The Germans burned about 2,000 Jews in the Great Synagogue (Białystok) on 27 June 1941, so the problem didn't start in 1943. Xx236 ( talk) 12:16, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
I have removed the links from Ukrainian section. Xx236 ( talk) 12:19, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
The "See also" section is a to-do list. Xx236 ( talk) 09:12, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
The phrase is unsourced and put into wrong place. Xx236 ( talk) 07:49, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
The link has been removed by Icewhiz https://en.truthaboutcamps.eu/ > I believe that the link should be used. Xx236 ( talk) 07:58, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
I don't know the memorial. It's from Kraków-Płaszów concentration camp. The monument isn't notable, it isn't described in this Wikipedia. The picture should be iconic. Auschwitz or destroied Warsaw? Xx236 ( talk) 08:02, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
I added citation to the caption of the image portraying the Lwów victims: [5]. I had originally made a correction because the previous caption stated:
Given that pre-war Poland was a multi-ethnic stated, it's worthwhile to provide this additional information. -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 22:58, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
The news services have issued a story about the bodies of seven nuns found murdered by Soviets after the re-conquest of Poland in WWII - from what I've seen so far, they are sensationalist and lacking scholarly prose - but, that may change in the coming days - any editors interested? --> https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/archaeologists-uncover-skeletons-catholic-nuns-who-were-murdered-russian-soldiers-wwii-180977184/ HammerFilmFan ( talk) 16:01, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 04:12, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
So, this article states that the number of poles that were killed by Germans for sheltering Jews was 1335, listed in the Jewish ghettos section.
However, this article claims the total number throughout the entire war years was 800.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/25785648.2023.2168939
It cites the Ryszard Walczak et al. (eds.), Those Who Helped: Polish Rescuers of Jews During the Holocaust (Warszawa: IPN, 1997).
What should be done? FIREYSUNSET ( talk) 02:20, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
War crimes in occupied Poland during World War II article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2 |
War crimes in occupied Poland during World War II was a Warfare good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||
|
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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WARNING: ACTIVE ARBITRATION REMEDIES Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Antisemitism in Poland#Article sourcing expectations (9 May 2021): The Arbitration Committee advises that administrators may impose "reliable-source consensus required" as a discretionary sanction on all articles on the topic of Polish history during World War II (1933-45), including the Holocaust in Poland. On articles where "reliable-source consensus required" is in effect, when a source that is not a high quality source (an article in a peer-reviewed scholarly journals, an academically focused book by a reputable publisher, and/or an article published by a reputable institution) is added and subsequently challenged by reversion, no editor may reinstate the source without first obtaining consensus on the talk page of the article in question or consensus about the reliability of the source in a discussion at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard. |
The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to Eastern Europe or the Balkans, which is a contentious topic. Please consult the procedures and edit carefully. |
This article is currently at start/C class, but could be improved to B-class if it had more (inline) citations. Additionally, there are numerous sections that are just "see also". They should be filled with content for this article to be comprehensive. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 22:15, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
The article is incomprehensible in its present form. All there is, is an out of control barrage of internal links split into superfluous themes. Unnecessary bullet points constantly break the train of thought. The article needs prose, not just "tidbits" of data. Poeticbent talk 04:40, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
When I worked on this article it was nothing more that Nazi German crimes. Due to my commitment elsewhere meant I never finished it. Thanks to Poeticbent for improving it. If you ever need me to check sources then please do ask. Jniech ( talk) 18:58, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
Article has been checked according to WikiProject article quality grading scheme in the following categories.
Thanks, Poeticbent talk 21:16, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
While it's uncontestable that the Polish people suffered terribly during the occupation of their country, this article does not appear to mention the crimes conducted by Poles. While many, many Poles sheltered or provided other forms of assistance to Jews, others actively helped with the Holocaust: [1]. The article covers repression of Poles after the war, but does not note the killings of Jewish survivors by Poles [2] or the harsh conditions suffered by the ethnic Germans who were expelled from Poland. I don't mean to suggest that there was anything which remotely approaches moral equivalence between the appalling conduct of the Germans and Soviets, but an article on "crimes" needs to acknowledge that some Poles also committed "crimes". Nick-D ( talk) 02:03, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
In the version I wrote there were sections on Polish, Jewish and Lithuanian crimes. Therefore I agree with Nick-D about crimes in the war but not post war. Jniech ( talk) 19:13, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
Few citations are needed, cite requests added. See also seems too long, please make sure there are no duplicate links and incorporate as much of it as possible into the body. Some references need proper formatting, for example [3] only has a title, ditto for [4] (which also raises a reliability flag). At least one url ref is bare. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:58, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
The article name is misleading, there are no burglaries, thefts, fraud offences etc recorded. Suggest rename to World War II war crimes in occupied Poland or similar. Jim Sweeney ( talk) 18:26, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
Gday. Per WP:LEADLENGTH an article of this size (100 kb) should have approx 3-4 paragraphs. This one only has one very short paragraph at this stage so it doesn't really summarise the article. I'm not familiar enough with the content to fix this, but if anyone else is looking for a way to assist the improvement of this article that might be a place to start. Anotherclown ( talk) 10:24, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
I have reverted the "promotion" of this article to GA status, for reasons explained here. I would ask that any discussion of this take place on the GAN talk page, not here, but I appreciate that some interested in this article may not have been aware of that discussion. J Milburn ( talk) 15:59, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
This article talks about Poles and Jews as if they were different. No matter what their religion they were all Polish. I have attempted to give some balance by using for example; "50 Poles, seven of them Jews" etc. Jim Sweeney ( talk) 21:26, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
This is a VERY big subject and will always be difficult to accomplish in one article. Can I suggest using a more summary style. There is already the Nazi crimes against the Polish nation article, which duplicates part of this one. If there was also a separate article Soviet World War II, war crimes in occupied Poland, both those articles could more easily be brought to GA standard. Then this one could, as an overview, using summary style link to the others. It could then be the lead in a three article Good Topic. Any thoughts. Jim Sweeney ( talk) 09:04, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
As I finally begin my copy-edit/proofread/peer review of this article, I'd like to thank @ Anotherclown, @ Jim Sweeney, and @ GraemeLeggett for stepping in on such short notice to help improve the article. I would have gladly helped out myself, but I was plenty busy trying to mediate an incredibly acrimonious dispute. AmericanLemming ( talk) 03:42, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
At present, I'm just listing instances of awkward and/or unclear wording that I don't know how to fix at the moment. I'm doing this as I go along so I don't forget any. AmericanLemming ( talk) 03:47, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
Resolved comments from peer review
|
---|
First third: Sections 1-3
The invasion of Poland (September 1939)
Second third Last third |
I keep thinking about the issue of listing all known incidents of civilian killings, and I admit we want to put a face on the victims. But an article isn't really the place to do that. I've said this before, but what do you think of starting an article titled [List of war crimes in occupied Poland during World War II]]? It would make this article much easier to read. AmericanLemming ( talk) 04:07, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
I think this is a good place to stop. I'm getting pretty tired, and it's going to take you a while to address my concerns above. As usual, I think some of them go beyond what' s required for GA status. Addressing them will improve the article, but are they absolutely necessary to achieve GA status? I have no idea. Probably not. But after this article's first review for GA, you may want to go beyond the GA criteria just to be on the safe side. But it's all up to you. Fixing all of these comments would take a long time. I'm just here to give you some suggestions on how to improve the article. :) AmericanLemming ( talk) 05:31, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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War crimes in occupied Poland during World War II. Please take a moment to review
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 10:13, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
My impression from a brief perusal is that this article failed Good Article 3 years ago seemingly at least partly to placate a very combative reviewer who shortly thereafter got indefinitely banned from Wikipedia for that kind of behavior. With 3 years of subsequent mods, and that reviewer no longer a problem, is it time to renominate? (Note: I won't be doing so myself as I know far too little about the criteria, and am not particularly interested in whether it passes or fails - I'm just mildly interested in what, if anything, the fate of the article may or may not tell us about the effect of certain kinds of editor on Wikipedia). Tlhslobus ( talk) 23:06, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 15 external links on War crimes in occupied Poland during World War II. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 10:25, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
The Germans burned about 2,000 Jews in the Great Synagogue (Białystok) on 27 June 1941, so the problem didn't start in 1943. Xx236 ( talk) 12:16, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
I have removed the links from Ukrainian section. Xx236 ( talk) 12:19, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
The "See also" section is a to-do list. Xx236 ( talk) 09:12, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
The phrase is unsourced and put into wrong place. Xx236 ( talk) 07:49, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
The link has been removed by Icewhiz https://en.truthaboutcamps.eu/ > I believe that the link should be used. Xx236 ( talk) 07:58, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
I don't know the memorial. It's from Kraków-Płaszów concentration camp. The monument isn't notable, it isn't described in this Wikipedia. The picture should be iconic. Auschwitz or destroied Warsaw? Xx236 ( talk) 08:02, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
I added citation to the caption of the image portraying the Lwów victims: [5]. I had originally made a correction because the previous caption stated:
Given that pre-war Poland was a multi-ethnic stated, it's worthwhile to provide this additional information. -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 22:58, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
The news services have issued a story about the bodies of seven nuns found murdered by Soviets after the re-conquest of Poland in WWII - from what I've seen so far, they are sensationalist and lacking scholarly prose - but, that may change in the coming days - any editors interested? --> https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/archaeologists-uncover-skeletons-catholic-nuns-who-were-murdered-russian-soldiers-wwii-180977184/ HammerFilmFan ( talk) 16:01, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 04:12, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
So, this article states that the number of poles that were killed by Germans for sheltering Jews was 1335, listed in the Jewish ghettos section.
However, this article claims the total number throughout the entire war years was 800.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/25785648.2023.2168939
It cites the Ryszard Walczak et al. (eds.), Those Who Helped: Polish Rescuers of Jews During the Holocaust (Warszawa: IPN, 1997).
What should be done? FIREYSUNSET ( talk) 02:20, 9 October 2023 (UTC)