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His name was Thomas Becket.
I have removed this: "While the three bishops fled to the king in Normandy, Becket continued to excommunicate his opponents in the church."
I find no evidence in any of the sources cited or outside sources that Becket was willy-nilly and unfairly excommunicating "his opponents in the church." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.205.59.37 ( talk) 20:33, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
There is an area in Worthing named after Thomas a Becket. He allegedly passed through at some point. Wondered if this had been mentioned or warrants mention. 86.7.231.165 ( talk) 13:23, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
My source for the legends connected with Becket is Folklore, Myths and Legends of Britain (London: The Reader’s Digest Association, 1973), p. 205 (Otford); p. 208 (Strood). Not sure if I need to put this on the page of the main article. -- Polylerus 06:10, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
If the "à" wasn't a part of his name, shouldn't the article be moved to just Thomas Becket? (I admit I'm only asking because I saw it on QI the other night, but it's still a valid question.) Sjorford (talk) 15:01, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
--If this kind of discussion isn't on Wikipedia, where will the average pedant go? Please keep the debate within the article! —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
69.120.177.165 (
talk) 04:24, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Discussion removed from article page for consideration:
However, as Strype was not a contemporary either, his opinion may not be of value. English surnames always contained a preposition in the 12th century as surnames had not formed properly. The à in his name may be an allusion to a vernacular Thomas 'of' Becket being shortened to o' and this being recorded by scribes as 'à'. He was allegedly given the "à" in his name many years after he died by uncertain sources, perhaps with the subliminal intention of alluding to Thomas à Kempis.
-- Old Moonraker ( talk) 07:42, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
-- Old Moonraker ( talk) 08:14, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Hey, it may be pedantically incorrect, but it is still common usage. Hence it appears here. -- Michael C. Price talk 19:06, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
Thomas à Becket is utter nonsense, however many 'serious' books have incorporated it through ignorance. This is nothing to do with QI (and Fry is not remotely as clever as he thinks he is), but with historical facts. QI is hardly the first place where this was pointed out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.2.231.158 ( talk) 20:07, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
There's no document stating "a Beckett" from the time he lived. All are "Beckett". The "a" came much later. History is full of goofs that sometimes get fixed. The King James Bible fixes most of the goofs of the earlier Roman Bible. One possible remaining goof is that in 3000yr old Hebrew the words for a camel and a thick rope are the same. 220.240.229.8 ( talk) 03:15, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
I don't think that the debate over it's title needs to be in the introduction/summary paragraph at the beginning. It's more trivia than useful information about Becket, and it dominates the first paragraph, which should be an overview of Becket (not just his name). M4bwav ( talk) 14:03, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for moving the title debate down, whoever did that. --
M4bwav (
talk) 15:15, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
A previous version of the article said "gay, pleasure-loving courtier". The meaning "gay" = "homosexual" is a quite new, and old text obviously used it as "merry", a meaning that is rapidly falling out of use due of the conflict with the new one.
I've done some quick web research, and it seems clear to me that indeed Thomas Becket was a homosexual, but outside from Google, my knowledge is nil. Can an expert comment?
For now, I changed the article to use "merry", as homosexuality among clergy is a strongly controversial subject.
Does not gai come from Norman French and means impetuous, or foolish. It does not mean happy nor homosexual. 220.240.229.8 ( talk) 03:20, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
The article notes casually and seemingly out of the thread that Beckett married a young maiden by the name Lara de rouchenfeld and furthermore that child was killed for declaring herself a homosexual. I cannot find any reference to Lara de Rouchenfeld online. Is this fact or political?
The details of the assasination are very sketchy, and I am amazed that there is no mention at all of Edward Grim, because he was one of 5 witness to the murder, and so is a central figure to historians enterpreting (sp?) his murder. And would some one PLEASE write an article on him! -- Flintwill 11:29, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
The article jumps from Becket in Sens locked in conflict with Henry II in the 'Becket leaves England' section to his murder in Canterbury Cathedral in 'Assassination' but doesn't explain the conditions that allowed him to return to England.
So what became of the fundamental struggle between church and state? Did Thomas accomplish in death what he sacrificed himself for? Was Henry's contrition sincere? Inquiring minds -- oops, that's copyrighted. Moioci 23:03, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
QUOTE: This was done on orders from King Henry VIII as vengeance for his ancestor, Henry II. UNQUOTE
???
Thought the Tudors were in no way related to the Plantagenets...and therefore no ancestry connection...
" as vengeance for his ancestor, Henry II" ... should be removed
Agree it should be removed. But just for argument Henry II begat John Lackland begat Henry III begat Edward I begat Edward II begat Edward III begat Edmund of Langley begat Richard of Conisburgh begat Richard Plantagenet begat Edward IV began Elizabeth of York begat Henry VIII. Just saying.
Can not conceive that Henry VIII would seek vengeance for Henry II! —Preceding unsigned comment added by MotherHoose ( talk • contribs) 11:59, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Maybe I'm just being sceptical, but the second section, about 1162, seems a bit...suspicious. Maybe I'm just trained to spot any parts in my or other peoples' work that may seem (or is) plagarised, but it would be worth giving your sources for the piece.
Good article - but on reading through it, it doesn't say when Becket returned to England. We have "Becket leaves England" and then in the next section he is assassinated in Canterbury. Could add details of his return to Canterbury? Gebjon 00:21, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Did Thomas (á) Becket have any significant writings? Any books, or treatises? Cheers, -- 222.155.213.36 02:12, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
What on earth does schism mean? Couldn't you use easier language?
Schism is terminology rather than jargon. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schism_%28religion%29 Le poulet noir 16:56, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
"In late 2005, Thomas Becket was selected as one of the ten "Worst Britons," in a poll by the BBC History Magazine." Could someone add as to why he was chosen for this dubious honour given that he is regarded as a saint? The context as to why he was selected needs to be mentioned for someone who is not well versed with this subject. Idleguy 12:32, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Could some kind person with greater technical know how than me please ensure that the text is not covered halfway down by the picture of Saint Thomas`s burial? Thankyou! Andycjp Dec 29th 2006
An entire entry dedicated to Becket, yet he is not mentioned once in the article! what's up with that? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 170.148.10.46 ( talk) 17:21, 29 January 2007 (UTC).
This article does not contain sufficient references to meet the GA criteria. There are lots of unsupported statements. Random example: "Later that would be one of the reasons his son would turn against him." StAnselm 00:49, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Thomas Becket has figured in polls for the best and the worst Britons. Which is it? Judithspencer 20:05, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Depends on your point of view. As chancellor, he wasn't terribly good (if I remember correctly), as a Christian, he was good, and as a Briton, I don't know. (Read a biography and decide for yourself). · AndonicO Talk 01:00, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Er, he was never a 'Briton' as he lived in the period of the Angevin Empire and not in the unified island of Scotland , Wales and England. 'Anglo Norman' might well pass as his father was a leading London Citizen.
79.75.31.166 (
talk) 09:40, 29 December 2008 (UTC) Tony S.
I'll need to look it up again, but I recall his inclusion in the "worst Britons" list (and his eventual elevation to 2nd place) was hugely controversial at the time, with a number of historians and churchmen pointing out that Becket's high placing wasn't perhaps entirely fair - the ones who got the most votes were generally only the famous ones - Jack the Ripper, Oswald Moseley etc. How many members of the public are really likely to have any idea who Hugh Despenser or Thomas Arundel were? I definitely recall a few newspaper and magazine articles addressing this, I'll see if I can dig them up. The other objection, if I remember rightly, was the fact the candidates were all nominated by a single historian for each century - whereas the "best Briton" type polls went straight to the public.
82.2.64.84 (
talk) 18:24, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
The wiki definition of Danegeld does not agree with its usage in this article.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.195.188.89 ( talk) 18:01, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
A lot of sources say this - here's a Google search. Is there any reason to doubt them? If so, we should say something about these reservations in the article. -- JackofOz ( talk) 06:30, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Becket was born about 1118, or in 1120 according to later tradition. He was born in Cheapside, London, on 21 December, which was the feast day of St Thomas the Apostle.
As I recall one of the main points of contention for Becket was that during his exile, Henry II had his son the Young King Henry crowned (in order to ease future succession disputes). This was controversial because the crowning of the King was the right of the Archbishop of Canterbury, a point agreed by the Pope, yet in Becket's absence the coronation was carried out by Roger of York and Gilbert of London. Naturally this infuriated Becket who saw it as an attack on the rights of the Archbishop of Canterbury, leading to the agreement of the Pope that those involved should be excommunicated.
It would be nice to see something on this added.( Valmecias ( talk) 00:53, 17 April 2008 (UTC))
I'm thinking of putting this series of three together in a <gallery>. -- Old Moonraker ( talk) 19:29, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Some of the statements in this article are horribly outdated, especially those concerning Henry II and his designs.
For example: "Henry desired to be absolute ruler of his dominions, both Church and State, and could find precedents in the traditions of the throne when he planned to do away with the special privileges of the English clergy, which he regarded as fetters on his authority."
Henry's "desire" was not so much absolute rule but to rule in the state of his grandfather, with all the rights and privileges granted to the English monarch before the time of Steven. The disagreements with the church had more to do with changes in the church and how it viewed its prerogatives in the late 12th century as opposed to the early part of the century. And even in the context of these competing historical shifts, Henry was the more compromising figure, whereas Beckett was shifting, unstable, at times arbitrarily rigid or conciliatory. If it was simply a church versus state issue, then why did Henry have such better relationships with pretty much every major church figure not named Beckett. Archbishop Theobold, the Pope, Hugh Bigod, nondescript priest guy in funny hat in the background in that scene from Lion in Winter -- not a one of them had the kinds of problems that Beckett did. Misopogon ( talk) 04:48, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
There isn't enough on this, in particular why the pilgrimage took off at all and what it means for the foundation of English literature - I've added something. 79.75.31.166 ( talk) 09:42, 29 December 2008 (UTC) Tony S
Thanks, User:81.151.61.243, for trimming this cumbersome list. It still seems too long, and only one of the remaining versions has a citation. What about restricting the list to versions for which a authoritative source can be found? -- Old Moonraker ( talk) 10:20, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
Since, according to the article, the Oxford Dictionary of English, the New Oxford Dictionary for Writers and Editors, and Chambers Biographical Dictionary all prefer the spelling "St. Thomas à Becket", would it make sense to change "erroneously" in the opening sentence to "originally erroneously"? Or are we saying that all those publications (and plenty more, no doubt) are wrong? 86.134.9.139 ( talk) 00:33, 20 December 2009 (UTC).
Becket is a saint, but he has also been named the second-worst person in English history. This is confusing. The article would benefit from a section discussing how Becket is viewed in modern times, and why. John M Baker ( talk) 16:12, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
Should we mention that "will someone rid me of this meddlesome priest" is referenced in the US senate testimonial of James Comey? 73.13.121.160 ( talk) 15:48, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
Thomas Becket is also commonly known as "Thomas à Becket", although this form seems not to have been contemporaneous but a post-Reformation adornment, possibly in imitation of Thomas à Kempis. This statement couldnt possibly be true since... 1) The 95 theses was published in 1517. 2)Thomas a Kempis is (c.1380-25 July 1471) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.191.65.79 ( talk) 17:04, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
Here's what the article says: "Becket's last public act of defiance was a sermon to the Augustinian foundation at St Mary's Priory at Southwark on 23 December, now the Cathedral. He then left for Canterbury by the principal route to Kent from there, now the A2 road. The pilgrimage started shortly after the murder, encouraged by the Augustinian orders at both Southwark and Canterbury, as a retracing of Becket's last journey. This was given added impetus with Becket's canonisation in 1173."
How was this Becket's last act of defiance? Wasn't that his excommunication of three bishops on Christmas Day? I have not been able to find any reference that any sermon was given to St. Mary's Priory or that Becket was anywhere in particular on December 23. I have found nothing stating that the Augustinians helped to popularize the pilgrimage, either. There is no mention anywhere of Becket's "last journey" in any source that I can find. Someone needs to cite sources here, and if they can't find it this passage should be removed. I'm sincerely interested in whether this is true, but can't find a whole lot of evidence to back it up.
-- 75.15.87.99 ( talk) 04:17, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
I expect the author is simply quoting another article/text, with the statement, "left their weapons under a sycamore", however I doubt it because the sycamore was not introduced to Britain until 17th century (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acer_pseudoplatanus) a fact used as justification for its treatment as a "weed" in the UK. A petty factoid I admit, but it is fancifications/over-romance of this kind that spark my skepticism about the whole thing when reading articles of this kind. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Viggenboy ( talk • contribs) 15:12, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
Accepted, as I mentioned, I suspected this was simply a "literal" quote. Please forgive my skepticism. I think as a scientist by training and very analytical and "factual" by nature (some would say verging on the autistic) I am interested in the "facts" of history, and the the tendency of some (especially Victorian) historians towards subjective supposition and presumptive romanticism (rather than fact) grates some times... and the "tell" of this is frequently mis-placed and flamboyantly incorrect or implausible additional detail. Back to this account. OK so they left their armour under a tree, fine, further detail is unnecessary, and smacks (at some point in the chain of the story being handed down the chain through history) of "embellishment for poetic effect". It would be typical in a romanticised Victorian history for example, for that statement to end with "....a sycamore- which still stands in the grounds of the cathedral to this very day!". Yes and that tree is 150 years old. I do hope you understand where I'm coming from and why this sort of thing gives me a "hang on a minute" moment and sets my "cynics twitch" going. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.118.106.213 ( talk) 16:09, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
it will be better to say how they thougt to take him more then 100 km to this meeting if they ever did. 129.143.71.39 ( talk) 09:31, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
I am removing "Eastern Orthodox" from the infobox, as he is a post-1054 Western saint. I realize the adherence to orthodoxy in various Western localities after the official date of the Schism is an open question in the Orthodox Church, and individuals are free to privately venerate whomever they wish, but to my knowledge St. Thomas Becket is not listed on the calendar of any local Orthodox Church. Unless proven otherwise, he should not be listed as a saint of the Orthodox Church. 99.24.170.188 ( talk) 01:32, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
Were the four knights who killed Thomas drunk? Or is this only in Eliot's Murder in the Cathedral? Martinevans123 ( talk) 21:48, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
I know you guys aren't using the {{ infobox saint}} template but whichever you opt for, you should include the period during which the cult was suppressed at its major shrines in England. At least during the latter half of Henry VIII's reign. When was it reintroduced? Under Mary? Did Elizabeth suppress it again or just leave it alone? — LlywelynII 01:31, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
User:Ealdgyth, you reverted probably an hour's worth of my work, spent in improving the references to this article. I refer to WP:CITESHORT, speficially "templates should not be added without consensus to an article that already uses a consistent referencing style".
It is clear that the referencing style is far from consistent in this article, some examples:
And as one moves on down the list of citations it gets more chaotic. I was trying to improve the citation style of the article by making the style uniform and consistent. Since the referencing style is currently far from consistent, I believed no discussion was needed as I was boldly making an unambiguous improvement to an article that needed it. Wayne Jayes ( talk) 19:53, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
There have been back and forth changes to the successor line under Becket's position as Archbishop of Canterbury. I made the two mobile edits to that information. Just to clarify so that – hopefully – the change can be permanent: After my first edit, there was an "undo" that said "We also include Archbishops-Elect". This doesn't make sense considering Richard of Dover's article lists St. Thomas Becket as his predecessor and Roger de Bailleul's article lists him as Archbishop-Elect of Canterbury and not as Archbishop. If someone is going through the Archbishops of Canterbury, arrives at the Becket article, and then clicks the name of Roger de Bailleul, he can no longer continue in the line as there is no link to a successor on Roger de Bailleul's article. For ease of use and precision of information as well as to ensure consistency from one article to the next the changes should be left so that Richard of Dover is listed as Becket's successor.
At some point, somebody seems to have changed the famous quote from "Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?" to "Who will rid me of this troublesome priest?", from an IP address with no other edits, with no explanation: diff here
Now, if you Google for 'turbulent priest', you end up on this page, but the phrase is never actually mentioned.
Does that feel like a candidate for reversion?
Cammy ( talk) 19:03, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
I propose merging the Becket Controversy page into this page - both articles are fairly short and the content of Becket Controversy is appropriate to expand the main article. Seraphimsystem ( talk) 11:54, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
This article and the one on Henry II refers to a "famous" change in demeanour and lifestyle by Becket upon his ascension to the archbishopric. It would be useful for this article to expand on the details of this - there is very little about his earlier life (even as Lord Chancellor) so the extent and significance of the change is not apparent. 92.17.144.186 ( talk) 14:02, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
For the title of Becket's death, I think we should use Murder instead of Assassination. Assassination refers to more planned attacks, Beckets murder was just carried out on the spot. Thanks for reading! Great article by the way! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ooh Saad ( talk • contribs) 13:51, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
The justification for this is that it is injecting politics though it merely reports it, and yet that his legacy affects politics is fit to be noted. . To be consistent then all such government recognition of certain notable people should be banned under the pretext of injecting politics. Grace and peace thru the Lord Jesus ( talk) 14:19, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
In historic literature, in German he is called Thomas von Candelberg, and Thomas Cantuarensis in Latin sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:C0:DF0F:CC00:3CFF:B4FB:B08F:8B27 ( talk) 21:57, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
Hello. I have recently come across a near-contemporary illustration of the assassination of Becket in a manuscript that may be more appropriate than the current image used of a 19th century depiction of him in a stained glass window. Given the semi-recent purge of English king's lead images from their imaginary 16th-17th century depictions to their near and contemporary portraits in illuminated manuscripts (see Henry VI of England, Henry V of England and Edward V of England) I think it only fitting that Becket's lead image (with his death taking place in 1170) be replaced with an image of him created in c. 1200. I apologise if this point has already been put forth and no doubt somebody is going to drag up an old post making this exact argument from the archives, but I do hope that it is considered. Again, if the majority of people think that the 13th century image is inferior or inappropriate then I shall leave this alone. Tim O'Doherty ( talk) 18:00, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
Update: I have since updated the lead image from his Victorian depiction to his Middle Ages portrayal. Please do not chalk this up to a flagrant disregard for getting general consensuses on talk pages; I just thought it justified as, as mentioned above, many of the British monarchs of yore have had their lead images changed as is completely justified seeing as the consensus on those changes have been almost unanimous with nobody reverting them. If anybody does wish to revert back to the previous Becket image, then they can do so. Tim O'Doherty ( talk) 13:35, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
Thomas Becket was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||
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His name was Thomas Becket.
I have removed this: "While the three bishops fled to the king in Normandy, Becket continued to excommunicate his opponents in the church."
I find no evidence in any of the sources cited or outside sources that Becket was willy-nilly and unfairly excommunicating "his opponents in the church." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.205.59.37 ( talk) 20:33, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
There is an area in Worthing named after Thomas a Becket. He allegedly passed through at some point. Wondered if this had been mentioned or warrants mention. 86.7.231.165 ( talk) 13:23, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
My source for the legends connected with Becket is Folklore, Myths and Legends of Britain (London: The Reader’s Digest Association, 1973), p. 205 (Otford); p. 208 (Strood). Not sure if I need to put this on the page of the main article. -- Polylerus 06:10, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
If the "à" wasn't a part of his name, shouldn't the article be moved to just Thomas Becket? (I admit I'm only asking because I saw it on QI the other night, but it's still a valid question.) Sjorford (talk) 15:01, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
--If this kind of discussion isn't on Wikipedia, where will the average pedant go? Please keep the debate within the article! —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
69.120.177.165 (
talk) 04:24, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Discussion removed from article page for consideration:
However, as Strype was not a contemporary either, his opinion may not be of value. English surnames always contained a preposition in the 12th century as surnames had not formed properly. The à in his name may be an allusion to a vernacular Thomas 'of' Becket being shortened to o' and this being recorded by scribes as 'à'. He was allegedly given the "à" in his name many years after he died by uncertain sources, perhaps with the subliminal intention of alluding to Thomas à Kempis.
-- Old Moonraker ( talk) 07:42, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
-- Old Moonraker ( talk) 08:14, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Hey, it may be pedantically incorrect, but it is still common usage. Hence it appears here. -- Michael C. Price talk 19:06, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
Thomas à Becket is utter nonsense, however many 'serious' books have incorporated it through ignorance. This is nothing to do with QI (and Fry is not remotely as clever as he thinks he is), but with historical facts. QI is hardly the first place where this was pointed out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.2.231.158 ( talk) 20:07, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
There's no document stating "a Beckett" from the time he lived. All are "Beckett". The "a" came much later. History is full of goofs that sometimes get fixed. The King James Bible fixes most of the goofs of the earlier Roman Bible. One possible remaining goof is that in 3000yr old Hebrew the words for a camel and a thick rope are the same. 220.240.229.8 ( talk) 03:15, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
I don't think that the debate over it's title needs to be in the introduction/summary paragraph at the beginning. It's more trivia than useful information about Becket, and it dominates the first paragraph, which should be an overview of Becket (not just his name). M4bwav ( talk) 14:03, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for moving the title debate down, whoever did that. --
M4bwav (
talk) 15:15, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
A previous version of the article said "gay, pleasure-loving courtier". The meaning "gay" = "homosexual" is a quite new, and old text obviously used it as "merry", a meaning that is rapidly falling out of use due of the conflict with the new one.
I've done some quick web research, and it seems clear to me that indeed Thomas Becket was a homosexual, but outside from Google, my knowledge is nil. Can an expert comment?
For now, I changed the article to use "merry", as homosexuality among clergy is a strongly controversial subject.
Does not gai come from Norman French and means impetuous, or foolish. It does not mean happy nor homosexual. 220.240.229.8 ( talk) 03:20, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
The article notes casually and seemingly out of the thread that Beckett married a young maiden by the name Lara de rouchenfeld and furthermore that child was killed for declaring herself a homosexual. I cannot find any reference to Lara de Rouchenfeld online. Is this fact or political?
The details of the assasination are very sketchy, and I am amazed that there is no mention at all of Edward Grim, because he was one of 5 witness to the murder, and so is a central figure to historians enterpreting (sp?) his murder. And would some one PLEASE write an article on him! -- Flintwill 11:29, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
The article jumps from Becket in Sens locked in conflict with Henry II in the 'Becket leaves England' section to his murder in Canterbury Cathedral in 'Assassination' but doesn't explain the conditions that allowed him to return to England.
So what became of the fundamental struggle between church and state? Did Thomas accomplish in death what he sacrificed himself for? Was Henry's contrition sincere? Inquiring minds -- oops, that's copyrighted. Moioci 23:03, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
QUOTE: This was done on orders from King Henry VIII as vengeance for his ancestor, Henry II. UNQUOTE
???
Thought the Tudors were in no way related to the Plantagenets...and therefore no ancestry connection...
" as vengeance for his ancestor, Henry II" ... should be removed
Agree it should be removed. But just for argument Henry II begat John Lackland begat Henry III begat Edward I begat Edward II begat Edward III begat Edmund of Langley begat Richard of Conisburgh begat Richard Plantagenet begat Edward IV began Elizabeth of York begat Henry VIII. Just saying.
Can not conceive that Henry VIII would seek vengeance for Henry II! —Preceding unsigned comment added by MotherHoose ( talk • contribs) 11:59, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Maybe I'm just being sceptical, but the second section, about 1162, seems a bit...suspicious. Maybe I'm just trained to spot any parts in my or other peoples' work that may seem (or is) plagarised, but it would be worth giving your sources for the piece.
Good article - but on reading through it, it doesn't say when Becket returned to England. We have "Becket leaves England" and then in the next section he is assassinated in Canterbury. Could add details of his return to Canterbury? Gebjon 00:21, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Did Thomas (á) Becket have any significant writings? Any books, or treatises? Cheers, -- 222.155.213.36 02:12, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
What on earth does schism mean? Couldn't you use easier language?
Schism is terminology rather than jargon. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schism_%28religion%29 Le poulet noir 16:56, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
"In late 2005, Thomas Becket was selected as one of the ten "Worst Britons," in a poll by the BBC History Magazine." Could someone add as to why he was chosen for this dubious honour given that he is regarded as a saint? The context as to why he was selected needs to be mentioned for someone who is not well versed with this subject. Idleguy 12:32, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Could some kind person with greater technical know how than me please ensure that the text is not covered halfway down by the picture of Saint Thomas`s burial? Thankyou! Andycjp Dec 29th 2006
An entire entry dedicated to Becket, yet he is not mentioned once in the article! what's up with that? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 170.148.10.46 ( talk) 17:21, 29 January 2007 (UTC).
This article does not contain sufficient references to meet the GA criteria. There are lots of unsupported statements. Random example: "Later that would be one of the reasons his son would turn against him." StAnselm 00:49, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Thomas Becket has figured in polls for the best and the worst Britons. Which is it? Judithspencer 20:05, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Depends on your point of view. As chancellor, he wasn't terribly good (if I remember correctly), as a Christian, he was good, and as a Briton, I don't know. (Read a biography and decide for yourself). · AndonicO Talk 01:00, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Er, he was never a 'Briton' as he lived in the period of the Angevin Empire and not in the unified island of Scotland , Wales and England. 'Anglo Norman' might well pass as his father was a leading London Citizen.
79.75.31.166 (
talk) 09:40, 29 December 2008 (UTC) Tony S.
I'll need to look it up again, but I recall his inclusion in the "worst Britons" list (and his eventual elevation to 2nd place) was hugely controversial at the time, with a number of historians and churchmen pointing out that Becket's high placing wasn't perhaps entirely fair - the ones who got the most votes were generally only the famous ones - Jack the Ripper, Oswald Moseley etc. How many members of the public are really likely to have any idea who Hugh Despenser or Thomas Arundel were? I definitely recall a few newspaper and magazine articles addressing this, I'll see if I can dig them up. The other objection, if I remember rightly, was the fact the candidates were all nominated by a single historian for each century - whereas the "best Briton" type polls went straight to the public.
82.2.64.84 (
talk) 18:24, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
The wiki definition of Danegeld does not agree with its usage in this article.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.195.188.89 ( talk) 18:01, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
A lot of sources say this - here's a Google search. Is there any reason to doubt them? If so, we should say something about these reservations in the article. -- JackofOz ( talk) 06:30, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Becket was born about 1118, or in 1120 according to later tradition. He was born in Cheapside, London, on 21 December, which was the feast day of St Thomas the Apostle.
As I recall one of the main points of contention for Becket was that during his exile, Henry II had his son the Young King Henry crowned (in order to ease future succession disputes). This was controversial because the crowning of the King was the right of the Archbishop of Canterbury, a point agreed by the Pope, yet in Becket's absence the coronation was carried out by Roger of York and Gilbert of London. Naturally this infuriated Becket who saw it as an attack on the rights of the Archbishop of Canterbury, leading to the agreement of the Pope that those involved should be excommunicated.
It would be nice to see something on this added.( Valmecias ( talk) 00:53, 17 April 2008 (UTC))
I'm thinking of putting this series of three together in a <gallery>. -- Old Moonraker ( talk) 19:29, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Some of the statements in this article are horribly outdated, especially those concerning Henry II and his designs.
For example: "Henry desired to be absolute ruler of his dominions, both Church and State, and could find precedents in the traditions of the throne when he planned to do away with the special privileges of the English clergy, which he regarded as fetters on his authority."
Henry's "desire" was not so much absolute rule but to rule in the state of his grandfather, with all the rights and privileges granted to the English monarch before the time of Steven. The disagreements with the church had more to do with changes in the church and how it viewed its prerogatives in the late 12th century as opposed to the early part of the century. And even in the context of these competing historical shifts, Henry was the more compromising figure, whereas Beckett was shifting, unstable, at times arbitrarily rigid or conciliatory. If it was simply a church versus state issue, then why did Henry have such better relationships with pretty much every major church figure not named Beckett. Archbishop Theobold, the Pope, Hugh Bigod, nondescript priest guy in funny hat in the background in that scene from Lion in Winter -- not a one of them had the kinds of problems that Beckett did. Misopogon ( talk) 04:48, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
There isn't enough on this, in particular why the pilgrimage took off at all and what it means for the foundation of English literature - I've added something. 79.75.31.166 ( talk) 09:42, 29 December 2008 (UTC) Tony S
Thanks, User:81.151.61.243, for trimming this cumbersome list. It still seems too long, and only one of the remaining versions has a citation. What about restricting the list to versions for which a authoritative source can be found? -- Old Moonraker ( talk) 10:20, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
Since, according to the article, the Oxford Dictionary of English, the New Oxford Dictionary for Writers and Editors, and Chambers Biographical Dictionary all prefer the spelling "St. Thomas à Becket", would it make sense to change "erroneously" in the opening sentence to "originally erroneously"? Or are we saying that all those publications (and plenty more, no doubt) are wrong? 86.134.9.139 ( talk) 00:33, 20 December 2009 (UTC).
Becket is a saint, but he has also been named the second-worst person in English history. This is confusing. The article would benefit from a section discussing how Becket is viewed in modern times, and why. John M Baker ( talk) 16:12, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
Should we mention that "will someone rid me of this meddlesome priest" is referenced in the US senate testimonial of James Comey? 73.13.121.160 ( talk) 15:48, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
Thomas Becket is also commonly known as "Thomas à Becket", although this form seems not to have been contemporaneous but a post-Reformation adornment, possibly in imitation of Thomas à Kempis. This statement couldnt possibly be true since... 1) The 95 theses was published in 1517. 2)Thomas a Kempis is (c.1380-25 July 1471) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.191.65.79 ( talk) 17:04, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
Here's what the article says: "Becket's last public act of defiance was a sermon to the Augustinian foundation at St Mary's Priory at Southwark on 23 December, now the Cathedral. He then left for Canterbury by the principal route to Kent from there, now the A2 road. The pilgrimage started shortly after the murder, encouraged by the Augustinian orders at both Southwark and Canterbury, as a retracing of Becket's last journey. This was given added impetus with Becket's canonisation in 1173."
How was this Becket's last act of defiance? Wasn't that his excommunication of three bishops on Christmas Day? I have not been able to find any reference that any sermon was given to St. Mary's Priory or that Becket was anywhere in particular on December 23. I have found nothing stating that the Augustinians helped to popularize the pilgrimage, either. There is no mention anywhere of Becket's "last journey" in any source that I can find. Someone needs to cite sources here, and if they can't find it this passage should be removed. I'm sincerely interested in whether this is true, but can't find a whole lot of evidence to back it up.
-- 75.15.87.99 ( talk) 04:17, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
I expect the author is simply quoting another article/text, with the statement, "left their weapons under a sycamore", however I doubt it because the sycamore was not introduced to Britain until 17th century (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acer_pseudoplatanus) a fact used as justification for its treatment as a "weed" in the UK. A petty factoid I admit, but it is fancifications/over-romance of this kind that spark my skepticism about the whole thing when reading articles of this kind. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Viggenboy ( talk • contribs) 15:12, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
Accepted, as I mentioned, I suspected this was simply a "literal" quote. Please forgive my skepticism. I think as a scientist by training and very analytical and "factual" by nature (some would say verging on the autistic) I am interested in the "facts" of history, and the the tendency of some (especially Victorian) historians towards subjective supposition and presumptive romanticism (rather than fact) grates some times... and the "tell" of this is frequently mis-placed and flamboyantly incorrect or implausible additional detail. Back to this account. OK so they left their armour under a tree, fine, further detail is unnecessary, and smacks (at some point in the chain of the story being handed down the chain through history) of "embellishment for poetic effect". It would be typical in a romanticised Victorian history for example, for that statement to end with "....a sycamore- which still stands in the grounds of the cathedral to this very day!". Yes and that tree is 150 years old. I do hope you understand where I'm coming from and why this sort of thing gives me a "hang on a minute" moment and sets my "cynics twitch" going. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.118.106.213 ( talk) 16:09, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
it will be better to say how they thougt to take him more then 100 km to this meeting if they ever did. 129.143.71.39 ( talk) 09:31, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
I am removing "Eastern Orthodox" from the infobox, as he is a post-1054 Western saint. I realize the adherence to orthodoxy in various Western localities after the official date of the Schism is an open question in the Orthodox Church, and individuals are free to privately venerate whomever they wish, but to my knowledge St. Thomas Becket is not listed on the calendar of any local Orthodox Church. Unless proven otherwise, he should not be listed as a saint of the Orthodox Church. 99.24.170.188 ( talk) 01:32, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
Were the four knights who killed Thomas drunk? Or is this only in Eliot's Murder in the Cathedral? Martinevans123 ( talk) 21:48, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
I know you guys aren't using the {{ infobox saint}} template but whichever you opt for, you should include the period during which the cult was suppressed at its major shrines in England. At least during the latter half of Henry VIII's reign. When was it reintroduced? Under Mary? Did Elizabeth suppress it again or just leave it alone? — LlywelynII 01:31, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
User:Ealdgyth, you reverted probably an hour's worth of my work, spent in improving the references to this article. I refer to WP:CITESHORT, speficially "templates should not be added without consensus to an article that already uses a consistent referencing style".
It is clear that the referencing style is far from consistent in this article, some examples:
And as one moves on down the list of citations it gets more chaotic. I was trying to improve the citation style of the article by making the style uniform and consistent. Since the referencing style is currently far from consistent, I believed no discussion was needed as I was boldly making an unambiguous improvement to an article that needed it. Wayne Jayes ( talk) 19:53, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
There have been back and forth changes to the successor line under Becket's position as Archbishop of Canterbury. I made the two mobile edits to that information. Just to clarify so that – hopefully – the change can be permanent: After my first edit, there was an "undo" that said "We also include Archbishops-Elect". This doesn't make sense considering Richard of Dover's article lists St. Thomas Becket as his predecessor and Roger de Bailleul's article lists him as Archbishop-Elect of Canterbury and not as Archbishop. If someone is going through the Archbishops of Canterbury, arrives at the Becket article, and then clicks the name of Roger de Bailleul, he can no longer continue in the line as there is no link to a successor on Roger de Bailleul's article. For ease of use and precision of information as well as to ensure consistency from one article to the next the changes should be left so that Richard of Dover is listed as Becket's successor.
At some point, somebody seems to have changed the famous quote from "Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?" to "Who will rid me of this troublesome priest?", from an IP address with no other edits, with no explanation: diff here
Now, if you Google for 'turbulent priest', you end up on this page, but the phrase is never actually mentioned.
Does that feel like a candidate for reversion?
Cammy ( talk) 19:03, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
I propose merging the Becket Controversy page into this page - both articles are fairly short and the content of Becket Controversy is appropriate to expand the main article. Seraphimsystem ( talk) 11:54, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
This article and the one on Henry II refers to a "famous" change in demeanour and lifestyle by Becket upon his ascension to the archbishopric. It would be useful for this article to expand on the details of this - there is very little about his earlier life (even as Lord Chancellor) so the extent and significance of the change is not apparent. 92.17.144.186 ( talk) 14:02, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
For the title of Becket's death, I think we should use Murder instead of Assassination. Assassination refers to more planned attacks, Beckets murder was just carried out on the spot. Thanks for reading! Great article by the way! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ooh Saad ( talk • contribs) 13:51, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
The justification for this is that it is injecting politics though it merely reports it, and yet that his legacy affects politics is fit to be noted. . To be consistent then all such government recognition of certain notable people should be banned under the pretext of injecting politics. Grace and peace thru the Lord Jesus ( talk) 14:19, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
In historic literature, in German he is called Thomas von Candelberg, and Thomas Cantuarensis in Latin sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:C0:DF0F:CC00:3CFF:B4FB:B08F:8B27 ( talk) 21:57, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
Hello. I have recently come across a near-contemporary illustration of the assassination of Becket in a manuscript that may be more appropriate than the current image used of a 19th century depiction of him in a stained glass window. Given the semi-recent purge of English king's lead images from their imaginary 16th-17th century depictions to their near and contemporary portraits in illuminated manuscripts (see Henry VI of England, Henry V of England and Edward V of England) I think it only fitting that Becket's lead image (with his death taking place in 1170) be replaced with an image of him created in c. 1200. I apologise if this point has already been put forth and no doubt somebody is going to drag up an old post making this exact argument from the archives, but I do hope that it is considered. Again, if the majority of people think that the 13th century image is inferior or inappropriate then I shall leave this alone. Tim O'Doherty ( talk) 18:00, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
Update: I have since updated the lead image from his Victorian depiction to his Middle Ages portrayal. Please do not chalk this up to a flagrant disregard for getting general consensuses on talk pages; I just thought it justified as, as mentioned above, many of the British monarchs of yore have had their lead images changed as is completely justified seeing as the consensus on those changes have been almost unanimous with nobody reverting them. If anybody does wish to revert back to the previous Becket image, then they can do so. Tim O'Doherty ( talk) 13:35, 29 January 2022 (UTC)