... do you shrive a message, exactly?
(Fill in lovely pleasantries here, wishing you a delightful new year and recalling our happy previous interactions.) -- Trovatore ( talk) 23:14, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
- Happy new year to you and all, User:Trovatore.
- Sadly, the meaning of your question is not readily apparent to me, and
Wiktionary:shrive has not helped. Over. --
Jack of Oz
[pleasantries] 23:24, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
- Well, you mentioned a class of messages that would get "short shrift", which means they have little shriving time allowed. --
Trovatore (
talk) 00:23, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
- Ah yes, indeed. How easily one forgets when one is at my advanced stage of life. Not much point making threats if one forgets one has made them, is there?
- Anyhoo, let us proceed in a forwardly direction. See
Wiktionary: short shrift, Meaning 4. --
Jack of Oz
[pleasantries] 02:14, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
- Well, glad we got that cleared up before Shrove Tuesday.
- I remember there was an episode of The Rockford Files called "Rosa Krantz and Gilda Stern are dead". Don't remember anything else about it but presumably those were the names of the murder victims. Sometimes writers have to have a little fun. -- Trovatore ( talk) 23:28, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
- Well, you mentioned a class of messages that would get "short shrift", which means they have little shriving time allowed. --
Trovatore (
talk) 00:23, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
have you tried reading the article linked in the new york review of books? Search the quotations? Thank you, if you have any further thoughts please reply to my talk page before reverting any edits to Paul bowles article. here is the link for your convenience, you may start at the middle where he described the locals as "bunch of Ay-rabs" https://archive.is/8mSH0#selection-527.0-535.11 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:4040:9900:C000:2538:45A5:2CBE:C89C ( talk) 02:14, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
- In my edit summary there was no denial of the veracity of your cites. I removed the text because of (1) lack of balance, and (2) the fact that there was nothing about these claims in the body of the article. The WP:lede section is meant to summarise what appears below ("In Wikipedia, the lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents"), but as there was nothing below of any relevance, there was nothing to summarise.
- Please post new threads at the bottom of a talk page.
- Please learn the rules of Wikipedia. --
Jack of Oz
[pleasantries] 07:06, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
- hello
- I understand we have a difference of opinion between what you described as being "lack of balance". I cannot understand how a white predator who engaged in such heinous and unforgiveable crimes. whose "works of art" are a source of inspiration for deviant white pedophilias who continue to plague the sovereign and honorable country of Morocco to this very day; warrant no mention of it in the lead paragraph because you happen to believe it is "lack of balance".
- \\
- In respect of /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Civility, I will now request a 3rd party moderator to meditate this matter, in the meantime; as you do not dispute the essence of the claim, I will ask you to wait and refrain from further editing the article until the process resolves itself. 2600:4040:9900:C000:ED31:ECD:F340:1FEC ( talk) 00:54, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
- You seem to misinterpret me. The lack of balance, and the mention of these matters in the lede para and nowhere else, are completely separate issues. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 03:10, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
- Also, it's rather disingenuous of you to reinstate your edits, then immediately request me to refrain from further editing. If you want to call in a moderator, that is your right; but you do it while things stand as they are. You don't request a moderator and then make a further edit before requesting me not to do likewise. As I said above, learn the rules of Wikipedia. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 03:15, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Russian music publishers (people)
A tag has been placed on Category:Russian music publishers (people) indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.
If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and removing the speedy deletion tag. Liz Read! Talk! 03:22, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
-- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 22:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
On the Main page: the person who made the pictured festival possible -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 19:25, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
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| story · music · places |
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Today a friend's birthday, with related music and new vacation pics -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 22:30, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
Hello. You may or may not be aware that your list of cool names was shared a coupla days ago on Twitter by Annie Rauwerda of Depths of Wikipedia. Here's her post. Predictably, people responded with lots of suggestions of names to add. I added Marijuana Pepsi Vandyck, but lack the motivation to do any more. I'm sharing the suggestions here, in case you wanna do it. I haven't bothered to check the veracity of these names, so buyer beware. For what it's worth, many if not most of these folks have Wikipedia articles about them; I've boldfaced a few that do.
Thelonius Sphere Monk, God Shammgod, Stirling Mortlock, Staff Sgt. Max Fightmaster, Cardinal Sin, Kenesaw Mountain Landis, Rad Heroman, Kool-Aid McKinstry, Christ Bongo, Radek Bonk, Blinky Palermo, Storm Hunter, Amillion Buggs, Dick Trickle, Dong Dong, Morning Glory Zell-Ravenheart, D'Brickashaw Ferguson, Hotman Paris, Preserved Fish, Ponty Bone, Greg Killmaster, Major Dick Bong, Eagle-Eye Cherry, Pootie Tang, Percival Spear, Shamus Beagelhole, and Tanqueray Beavers.
While I'm here, I'll just share that I'm very impressed with your userpage, and with all the work you've done on WP. I'm a newbie, so all I can do is gape in awe, and dream of making a userpage half that cool. Cheers ... Yesthatbruce ( talk) 06:07, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for that. I'm not a Twitterist so I wasn't aware. But anyone's welcome to add names.
- I too was a newbie once. It feels like just yesterday, but nooo. Persevere and all good things will happen. --
Jack of Oz
[pleasantries] 06:26, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
- Update: I have discovered I do indeed have a Twitter account. I've upgraded my profile a bit. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 07:45, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Music written in all major or minor keys, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Alexander Goldenweiser.
( Opt-out instructions.) -- DPL bot ( talk) 17:47, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
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Today, I remember 12 years of musical company and give thanks to Seiji Ozawa. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 09:27, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you, Gerda. I've loved Ozawa's recording of
Gurre-Lieder for decades. He used to be a young man. So did I, come to think of it. Better get on with it ... --
Jack of Oz
[pleasantries] 22:00, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
- Did you see my personal memories? - I took a photo then, but not in focus, and probably not really permitted ;) ... and today
a woman and her views --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 22:26, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
- Yes; lovely. --
Jack of Oz
[pleasantries] 22:36, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you! - The image, taken on a cemetery last year after the funeral of a distant but dear family member, commemorates today, with thanks for their achievements, four subjects mentioned on the Main page and Vami_IV, a friend here. Listen to music by Tchaikovsky (an article where one of the four is pictured), sung by today's subject (whose performance on stage I enjoyed two days ago). -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 16:16, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
- Mozart wrote Die Zauberflöte, posters and
sources say Die Zauberflöte. I assume a requested move might result in renaming, as for
Der fliegende Holländer, but have better things to do. Can we agree? --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 23:18, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
- Not really, Gerda. As I said in my edit summary, it all comes down to how Wikipedia names its articles. That can of course change over time, for a range of reasons, but currently the article is
The Magic Flute, and
Die Zauberflöte is a redirect. Redirects have their place, but imo as a general rule we should not be linking to redirects but to articles proper. --
Jack of Oz
[pleasantries] 01:58, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
- Hmm, mixing in — why not link to redirects???? It's usually the best solution (better than using a pipe) when the text that you'd like to have appear in the linking article does not match the article title. And I don't see any reason why the choice of the article title, from multiple plausible possibilities, needs to influence the text you write in the linking article. --
Trovatore (
talk) 02:12, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for the support. When there's a good redirect, why not use it? A woman who gets married but keeps her maiden name as her professional name. A village with a German name and a Polish name. Depending on context, the redirect may be the better choice. If a production of
Die Zauberflöte is performed by the English National Opera, it's of course better to use
The Magic Flute, but a work composed in German (as one of the first few notable ones in the language), performed in German in Germany, should be Zauberflöte, imho. I wouldn't typically correct others, but in an article I stand behind, I mean it ;) - During the FAC for
Rossini, I talked to the principal editors, explaining that we can't speak of the premiere of
The Barber of Seville, when it was given composed in Italian and performed in Italy. And they understood, and I began to believe in miracles. On
Rossini's rare birthday --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 15:04, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- For the life of me, I cannot see why the nationality of the presenting organisation is relevant. If both the ENO and the Vienna State Opera presented The Magic Flute, both in the original German, why would we call the first one "The Magic Flute" merely because ENO happens to be an organisation based in an English-speaking country, but the second one "Die Zauberflöte" merely because VSO happens to be based in a German-speaking country? What if they both presented their productions as part of the BBC Proms in London? Would the organisers risk confusing the public by giving them different titles?
- What if the opera were presented in Athens, Moscow, Saigon, Beijing or Riyadh (either in German or in the local languages)? Would we be required, under your thesis, to refer to the productions as Ο Μαγικός Αυλός, Волшебная флейта, Cây sáo thần, 魔笛 and الناي السحري, respectively? I hope you're not suggesting that. --
Jack of Oz
[pleasantries] 21:17, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry, I wasn't clear. Nationality plays no role (for me). The ENO has a program of performing everything in English, like the Komische Oper Berlin has a program to play everything in German. For the ENO, I'd say Dido and Aneas and The Magic Flute, and for the KOB I'd say Dido und Äneas and Die Zauberflöte, as their posters have. The Metropolitan Opera and the Berlin State Opera, however, will probably play (in the original language) Le nozze di Figaro and Die Zauberflöte, look at Met (they also play The Magic Flute, for the Holiday Presentation), look State Opera. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 21:44, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for the support. When there's a good redirect, why not use it? A woman who gets married but keeps her maiden name as her professional name. A village with a German name and a Polish name. Depending on context, the redirect may be the better choice. If a production of
Die Zauberflöte is performed by the English National Opera, it's of course better to use
The Magic Flute, but a work composed in German (as one of the first few notable ones in the language), performed in German in Germany, should be Zauberflöte, imho. I wouldn't typically correct others, but in an article I stand behind, I mean it ;) - During the FAC for
Rossini, I talked to the principal editors, explaining that we can't speak of the premiere of
The Barber of Seville, when it was given composed in Italian and performed in Italy. And they understood, and I began to believe in miracles. On
Rossini's rare birthday --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 15:04, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Hmm, mixing in — why not link to redirects???? It's usually the best solution (better than using a pipe) when the text that you'd like to have appear in the linking article does not match the article title. And I don't see any reason why the choice of the article title, from multiple plausible possibilities, needs to influence the text you write in the linking article. --
Trovatore (
talk) 02:12, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
- Not really, Gerda. As I said in my edit summary, it all comes down to how Wikipedia names its articles. That can of course change over time, for a range of reasons, but currently the article is
The Magic Flute, and
Die Zauberflöte is a redirect. Redirects have their place, but imo as a general rule we should not be linking to redirects but to articles proper. --
Jack of Oz
[pleasantries] 01:58, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
- Yes; lovely. --
Jack of Oz
[pleasantries] 22:36, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
- Did you see my personal memories? - I took a photo then, but not in focus, and probably not really permitted ;) ... and today
a woman and her views --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 22:26, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
- That's all still irrelevant, for me. La bohème was written in Italian and is almost always sung in Italian. Yet it has a French title. Why? Because that is the title that it was given and is universally used. Do Italian opera companies use an Italian title? Not that I've ever heard of. Now, I'm sure it has been performed in English (hence "Your tiny hand is frozen" instead of "Che gelida manina"), and German (I've heard Tauber et al. singing arias in German) and probably various other languages too. Does the title change each time? No.
- The crucial point is that we're writing an English-language encyclopedia for English readers, and we cannot assume that they read or understand any other languages. If it's necessary to explicitly state what language an opera is being performed in or a book is written in, that's fine, but that is a world away from actually referring to the opera's title or book's title in that language. We might tell readers that "Peter Ustinov recorded excerpts from War and Peace in the original Russian", but we would never tell readers that "Peter Ustinov recorded excerpts from Война и Мир". English Wikipedia decides, by consensus, what the titles of its articles are. Those are the titles we should use when referring to those things in other articles. --
Jack of Oz
[pleasantries] 22:23, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- By (changing) consensus, Wagner's work is now Der fliegende Holländer. I'd still write The Flying Dutchman if I referred to a performance at the ENO. It's good practise to add a translation to English when using foreign titles, especially in biographies. Rossini composed Il barbiere di Siviglia, and that's what the Met announces. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 22:32, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- ps: Perhaps just read Rossini's or Wagner's article and see how these things are handled in FA class articles. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 22:36, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
I understand your reasoning. It's just jarring that the first person named in the lead (one of only two) is unknown to the vast majority of Australians. To give him such prominence might suggest that he's some iconic figure in the culture. There's a general awareness though that the Dutch founded Australia first, hence why I condensed it to that. - HappyWaldo ( talk) 09:58, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- How many people know the name of our first prime minister, or our first governor-general? I'd say a lot fewer these days than one might suppose, thanks partly to our "world class" [sic] "education system" [sic]. George Washington probably rings a bell with more Aussies than Edmund Barton or Lord Hopetoun do. On this basis, would you propose skipping any mention of them from our articles? I certainly hope not.
- Re Janszoon: Telling people what they already know, but going no further when the information is available, seems a recipe for dumbing our readers down. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 11:11, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
CfD nomination at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 February 24 § Category:Assassinated journalists
A category or categories you have created have been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 February 24 § Category:Assassinated journalists on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. House Blaster ( talk · he/him) 20:13, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
Category:Novels by Alexandre Dumas fils has been nominated for deletion
Category:Novels by Alexandre Dumas fils has been nominated for deletion. A discussion is taking place to decide whether it complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Mason ( talk) 05:01, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
Nomination of Yermolay for deletion
The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yermolay until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.AllTheUsernamesAreInUse ( talk) 18:20, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Atxuri, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Basque country.
( Opt-out instructions.) -- DPL bot ( talk) 06:06, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
... do you shrive a message, exactly?
(Fill in lovely pleasantries here, wishing you a delightful new year and recalling our happy previous interactions.) -- Trovatore ( talk) 23:14, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
- Happy new year to you and all, User:Trovatore.
- Sadly, the meaning of your question is not readily apparent to me, and
Wiktionary:shrive has not helped. Over. --
Jack of Oz
[pleasantries] 23:24, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
- Well, you mentioned a class of messages that would get "short shrift", which means they have little shriving time allowed. --
Trovatore (
talk) 00:23, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
- Ah yes, indeed. How easily one forgets when one is at my advanced stage of life. Not much point making threats if one forgets one has made them, is there?
- Anyhoo, let us proceed in a forwardly direction. See
Wiktionary: short shrift, Meaning 4. --
Jack of Oz
[pleasantries] 02:14, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
- Well, glad we got that cleared up before Shrove Tuesday.
- I remember there was an episode of The Rockford Files called "Rosa Krantz and Gilda Stern are dead". Don't remember anything else about it but presumably those were the names of the murder victims. Sometimes writers have to have a little fun. -- Trovatore ( talk) 23:28, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
- Well, you mentioned a class of messages that would get "short shrift", which means they have little shriving time allowed. --
Trovatore (
talk) 00:23, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
have you tried reading the article linked in the new york review of books? Search the quotations? Thank you, if you have any further thoughts please reply to my talk page before reverting any edits to Paul bowles article. here is the link for your convenience, you may start at the middle where he described the locals as "bunch of Ay-rabs" https://archive.is/8mSH0#selection-527.0-535.11 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:4040:9900:C000:2538:45A5:2CBE:C89C ( talk) 02:14, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
- In my edit summary there was no denial of the veracity of your cites. I removed the text because of (1) lack of balance, and (2) the fact that there was nothing about these claims in the body of the article. The WP:lede section is meant to summarise what appears below ("In Wikipedia, the lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents"), but as there was nothing below of any relevance, there was nothing to summarise.
- Please post new threads at the bottom of a talk page.
- Please learn the rules of Wikipedia. --
Jack of Oz
[pleasantries] 07:06, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
- hello
- I understand we have a difference of opinion between what you described as being "lack of balance". I cannot understand how a white predator who engaged in such heinous and unforgiveable crimes. whose "works of art" are a source of inspiration for deviant white pedophilias who continue to plague the sovereign and honorable country of Morocco to this very day; warrant no mention of it in the lead paragraph because you happen to believe it is "lack of balance".
- \\
- In respect of /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Civility, I will now request a 3rd party moderator to meditate this matter, in the meantime; as you do not dispute the essence of the claim, I will ask you to wait and refrain from further editing the article until the process resolves itself. 2600:4040:9900:C000:ED31:ECD:F340:1FEC ( talk) 00:54, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
- You seem to misinterpret me. The lack of balance, and the mention of these matters in the lede para and nowhere else, are completely separate issues. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 03:10, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
- Also, it's rather disingenuous of you to reinstate your edits, then immediately request me to refrain from further editing. If you want to call in a moderator, that is your right; but you do it while things stand as they are. You don't request a moderator and then make a further edit before requesting me not to do likewise. As I said above, learn the rules of Wikipedia. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 03:15, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Russian music publishers (people)
A tag has been placed on Category:Russian music publishers (people) indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.
If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and removing the speedy deletion tag. Liz Read! Talk! 03:22, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
-- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 22:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
On the Main page: the person who made the pictured festival possible -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 19:25, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
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| story · music · places |
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Today a friend's birthday, with related music and new vacation pics -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 22:30, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
Hello. You may or may not be aware that your list of cool names was shared a coupla days ago on Twitter by Annie Rauwerda of Depths of Wikipedia. Here's her post. Predictably, people responded with lots of suggestions of names to add. I added Marijuana Pepsi Vandyck, but lack the motivation to do any more. I'm sharing the suggestions here, in case you wanna do it. I haven't bothered to check the veracity of these names, so buyer beware. For what it's worth, many if not most of these folks have Wikipedia articles about them; I've boldfaced a few that do.
Thelonius Sphere Monk, God Shammgod, Stirling Mortlock, Staff Sgt. Max Fightmaster, Cardinal Sin, Kenesaw Mountain Landis, Rad Heroman, Kool-Aid McKinstry, Christ Bongo, Radek Bonk, Blinky Palermo, Storm Hunter, Amillion Buggs, Dick Trickle, Dong Dong, Morning Glory Zell-Ravenheart, D'Brickashaw Ferguson, Hotman Paris, Preserved Fish, Ponty Bone, Greg Killmaster, Major Dick Bong, Eagle-Eye Cherry, Pootie Tang, Percival Spear, Shamus Beagelhole, and Tanqueray Beavers.
While I'm here, I'll just share that I'm very impressed with your userpage, and with all the work you've done on WP. I'm a newbie, so all I can do is gape in awe, and dream of making a userpage half that cool. Cheers ... Yesthatbruce ( talk) 06:07, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for that. I'm not a Twitterist so I wasn't aware. But anyone's welcome to add names.
- I too was a newbie once. It feels like just yesterday, but nooo. Persevere and all good things will happen. --
Jack of Oz
[pleasantries] 06:26, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
- Update: I have discovered I do indeed have a Twitter account. I've upgraded my profile a bit. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 07:45, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Music written in all major or minor keys, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Alexander Goldenweiser.
( Opt-out instructions.) -- DPL bot ( talk) 17:47, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
|
| |
| story · music · places |
|---|
Today, I remember 12 years of musical company and give thanks to Seiji Ozawa. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 09:27, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you, Gerda. I've loved Ozawa's recording of
Gurre-Lieder for decades. He used to be a young man. So did I, come to think of it. Better get on with it ... --
Jack of Oz
[pleasantries] 22:00, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
- Did you see my personal memories? - I took a photo then, but not in focus, and probably not really permitted ;) ... and today
a woman and her views --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 22:26, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
- Yes; lovely. --
Jack of Oz
[pleasantries] 22:36, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you! - The image, taken on a cemetery last year after the funeral of a distant but dear family member, commemorates today, with thanks for their achievements, four subjects mentioned on the Main page and Vami_IV, a friend here. Listen to music by Tchaikovsky (an article where one of the four is pictured), sung by today's subject (whose performance on stage I enjoyed two days ago). -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 16:16, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
- Mozart wrote Die Zauberflöte, posters and
sources say Die Zauberflöte. I assume a requested move might result in renaming, as for
Der fliegende Holländer, but have better things to do. Can we agree? --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 23:18, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
- Not really, Gerda. As I said in my edit summary, it all comes down to how Wikipedia names its articles. That can of course change over time, for a range of reasons, but currently the article is
The Magic Flute, and
Die Zauberflöte is a redirect. Redirects have their place, but imo as a general rule we should not be linking to redirects but to articles proper. --
Jack of Oz
[pleasantries] 01:58, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
- Hmm, mixing in — why not link to redirects???? It's usually the best solution (better than using a pipe) when the text that you'd like to have appear in the linking article does not match the article title. And I don't see any reason why the choice of the article title, from multiple plausible possibilities, needs to influence the text you write in the linking article. --
Trovatore (
talk) 02:12, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for the support. When there's a good redirect, why not use it? A woman who gets married but keeps her maiden name as her professional name. A village with a German name and a Polish name. Depending on context, the redirect may be the better choice. If a production of
Die Zauberflöte is performed by the English National Opera, it's of course better to use
The Magic Flute, but a work composed in German (as one of the first few notable ones in the language), performed in German in Germany, should be Zauberflöte, imho. I wouldn't typically correct others, but in an article I stand behind, I mean it ;) - During the FAC for
Rossini, I talked to the principal editors, explaining that we can't speak of the premiere of
The Barber of Seville, when it was given composed in Italian and performed in Italy. And they understood, and I began to believe in miracles. On
Rossini's rare birthday --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 15:04, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- For the life of me, I cannot see why the nationality of the presenting organisation is relevant. If both the ENO and the Vienna State Opera presented The Magic Flute, both in the original German, why would we call the first one "The Magic Flute" merely because ENO happens to be an organisation based in an English-speaking country, but the second one "Die Zauberflöte" merely because VSO happens to be based in a German-speaking country? What if they both presented their productions as part of the BBC Proms in London? Would the organisers risk confusing the public by giving them different titles?
- What if the opera were presented in Athens, Moscow, Saigon, Beijing or Riyadh (either in German or in the local languages)? Would we be required, under your thesis, to refer to the productions as Ο Μαγικός Αυλός, Волшебная флейта, Cây sáo thần, 魔笛 and الناي السحري, respectively? I hope you're not suggesting that. --
Jack of Oz
[pleasantries] 21:17, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry, I wasn't clear. Nationality plays no role (for me). The ENO has a program of performing everything in English, like the Komische Oper Berlin has a program to play everything in German. For the ENO, I'd say Dido and Aneas and The Magic Flute, and for the KOB I'd say Dido und Äneas and Die Zauberflöte, as their posters have. The Metropolitan Opera and the Berlin State Opera, however, will probably play (in the original language) Le nozze di Figaro and Die Zauberflöte, look at Met (they also play The Magic Flute, for the Holiday Presentation), look State Opera. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 21:44, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for the support. When there's a good redirect, why not use it? A woman who gets married but keeps her maiden name as her professional name. A village with a German name and a Polish name. Depending on context, the redirect may be the better choice. If a production of
Die Zauberflöte is performed by the English National Opera, it's of course better to use
The Magic Flute, but a work composed in German (as one of the first few notable ones in the language), performed in German in Germany, should be Zauberflöte, imho. I wouldn't typically correct others, but in an article I stand behind, I mean it ;) - During the FAC for
Rossini, I talked to the principal editors, explaining that we can't speak of the premiere of
The Barber of Seville, when it was given composed in Italian and performed in Italy. And they understood, and I began to believe in miracles. On
Rossini's rare birthday --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 15:04, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Hmm, mixing in — why not link to redirects???? It's usually the best solution (better than using a pipe) when the text that you'd like to have appear in the linking article does not match the article title. And I don't see any reason why the choice of the article title, from multiple plausible possibilities, needs to influence the text you write in the linking article. --
Trovatore (
talk) 02:12, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
- Not really, Gerda. As I said in my edit summary, it all comes down to how Wikipedia names its articles. That can of course change over time, for a range of reasons, but currently the article is
The Magic Flute, and
Die Zauberflöte is a redirect. Redirects have their place, but imo as a general rule we should not be linking to redirects but to articles proper. --
Jack of Oz
[pleasantries] 01:58, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
- Yes; lovely. --
Jack of Oz
[pleasantries] 22:36, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
- Did you see my personal memories? - I took a photo then, but not in focus, and probably not really permitted ;) ... and today
a woman and her views --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 22:26, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
- That's all still irrelevant, for me. La bohème was written in Italian and is almost always sung in Italian. Yet it has a French title. Why? Because that is the title that it was given and is universally used. Do Italian opera companies use an Italian title? Not that I've ever heard of. Now, I'm sure it has been performed in English (hence "Your tiny hand is frozen" instead of "Che gelida manina"), and German (I've heard Tauber et al. singing arias in German) and probably various other languages too. Does the title change each time? No.
- The crucial point is that we're writing an English-language encyclopedia for English readers, and we cannot assume that they read or understand any other languages. If it's necessary to explicitly state what language an opera is being performed in or a book is written in, that's fine, but that is a world away from actually referring to the opera's title or book's title in that language. We might tell readers that "Peter Ustinov recorded excerpts from War and Peace in the original Russian", but we would never tell readers that "Peter Ustinov recorded excerpts from Война и Мир". English Wikipedia decides, by consensus, what the titles of its articles are. Those are the titles we should use when referring to those things in other articles. --
Jack of Oz
[pleasantries] 22:23, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- By (changing) consensus, Wagner's work is now Der fliegende Holländer. I'd still write The Flying Dutchman if I referred to a performance at the ENO. It's good practise to add a translation to English when using foreign titles, especially in biographies. Rossini composed Il barbiere di Siviglia, and that's what the Met announces. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 22:32, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- ps: Perhaps just read Rossini's or Wagner's article and see how these things are handled in FA class articles. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 22:36, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
I understand your reasoning. It's just jarring that the first person named in the lead (one of only two) is unknown to the vast majority of Australians. To give him such prominence might suggest that he's some iconic figure in the culture. There's a general awareness though that the Dutch founded Australia first, hence why I condensed it to that. - HappyWaldo ( talk) 09:58, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- How many people know the name of our first prime minister, or our first governor-general? I'd say a lot fewer these days than one might suppose, thanks partly to our "world class" [sic] "education system" [sic]. George Washington probably rings a bell with more Aussies than Edmund Barton or Lord Hopetoun do. On this basis, would you propose skipping any mention of them from our articles? I certainly hope not.
- Re Janszoon: Telling people what they already know, but going no further when the information is available, seems a recipe for dumbing our readers down. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 11:11, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
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