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after reading the section on the reception of lotr, i feel that you are all digging just a bit. i mean sexism racism blah blah blah blah. this is a literary masterpiece. very few have had the command over the english language that tolkien possessed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.192.20.87 ( talk) 05:36, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Could someone please post the date that the copyright will expire?
Under current US, UK and Berne Convention law, copyright extends until the end of the calendar year 70 years after the death of the author, so the Lord of the Rings will enter the public domain on 1/1/2044 (barring future changes in the law). Solicitr 15:11, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
"The hobbits also learned that Sauron's forces can only be resisted if Aragorn took up his inheritance and fulfilled an ancient prophecy by wielding the sword Andúril, which had been forged anew from the shards of Narsil, the sword that cut the Ring from Sauron's finger in the Second Age."
Before I edit this part of the synopsis, I would first like to understand others' perception. To me it seems more influenced by the movie triology's interpolation of Aragorn than by that of the book (i.e. 'Sauron's forces can ONLY be resisted' evokes more the Aragorn-centric angst of the movie, than the stoic persistence of the book). In the book, the reforging of Narsil is not so much Aragorn taking up his inheritance as the next step in the realisation of his destiny. Therefore, as the book is the subject of this article it might be more appropriate to speak of the dream that prompted Boromir to travel to Rivendell, which Aragorn viewed as a summons to Minas Tirith.
Is this others' perception? BDB79 08:02, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
They undy. MarkThomas 19:16, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, I wouldn't say it directly symbolizes heaven (not so much as Mandos may represent purgatory) in that only Elves (as well as the ring-bearers) can go there, but in Christianity, any good person can go to heaven, though probably after purgatory. Tolkien wouldn't consider men and dwarves to necessarily be bad, its just that their fëar are more temporary. I think Tolkien did intend a connection between heaven and Aman, though.
I also don't think that they "undy" when they go there. For example, Frodo, Galadriel, and Elrond, never really die, even symbolically, though Frodo is literally and figuratively hurt and burdened. Also, it was never directly stated that when Frodo and Sam, and later Gimli go to Valinor they become immortal; in fact, it probably isn't so. -- queso man 22:46, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
194.60.106.5 12:56, 5 October 2006 (UTC)Is Middle-Earth actually China, as the country in Chinese has 'Middle' as part of the name? And think of all the wars and invasions of the West from the East, from the Huns to the Mongols. 5 Oct 06
Except for the fact that much of the culture is anglo-saxon and norse and stuff. And does it matter?- Ran da l l l in 17:22, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
ps Tolkien even says its not or in fact says that middle-earth is something else in letters.- Ran da l l l in 17:23, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
No mention of beowulf? Beowulf was a huge influence to the Lord of the Rings. I think it should be added to the article. Neokyotodragon 09:23, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
yes beowulf was a very great influence should include
Randalllin 18:44, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
It should be mentioned in the Tolkien article that Tolkien studied and taught Beowulf and nothing more, unless there is a specific source that says it influenced it. However, I do recall reading about Beowulf influencing Tolkien's works a long time ago (read, more than 10 years ago, when I was a Tolkien fanatic), but I wouldn't be able to tell you where. Find it if you want to include it. -- Wirbelwind 22:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Uthanc is right! The nazgul's mounts are not dragons. ( I don't like calling 'em fell beasts, because thats not really a name, its a description, but that is beside the point) Zantaggerung 03:46, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Right. Start at The Hobbit#Similarities to Beowulf and Talk:The_Hobbit#Beowulf. These compare the actual contents, which may or not be an act of WP:OR (different people take different stands), and debate the question – but importantly state that the annotated Hobbit includes Tolkien's own word on the matter. Surely someone on this page has a copy?
Then the "talking heads" documentaries on Tolkien in the PJ film appendices. Herewith the transcribed the sequence:
[Ref for all this: The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers (Special Extended DVD Edition). , "J. R. R. Tolkien: Origins of Middle-earth" ("Appendices Part 3: The Journey Continues...") New Line Home Entertainment Inc (2003)]
I'd rather others made the final judgement on which of these are sufficiently authoritative to be quoted, but I'd say it's more a problem of how to phrase and reference this than with the authority of the first two. Presumably a convenient chunk from Shippey's written publications would trump this, if someone has it. But it's clear it should be pursued. Job for someone with far too much Tolkien material...? JackyR | Talk 22:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
'fortham Offa waes geoflim ond guthum garcene man wide geweorthod wisdome heold ethel sinne thonon Eomer woc haelethum to helpe... ' (2) (Emphases mine))
Which Alexander (see bibliography) translates thus:)
[1] Uthanc 04:40, 9 November 2006 (UTC)'So it was that Offa [i.e. king of the continental Angles], brave with the spear, was spoken of abroad for his wars and his gifts; he governed with wisdom the land of his birth. To him was born Eomer, helper of the heroes...' (3)
From JRR Tolkien, Author of the Century – by Tom Shippey
HarperCollins 2001 paperback edition, page 94.
The Riders of the Mark are then a reconstruction from many sources, like so much in Tolkien, a blend of ancient and modern, the strange and the familiar, the learned (like *éored) and the absolutely matter of fact (like the place name Emneth). The underlying model for much of what they do and how they behave is furthermore perfectly obviously the Old English epic Beowulf, which Tolkien knew so well. Théoden’s hall is called Meduseld; so is Beowulf’s. The courts around it are called Edoras; see again Beowulf, line 1037. In the chapter “The King of the Golden Hall”, the etiquette of arrival and reception corresponds to that of Beowulf point for point.
Hobson 02:42, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Okay, as there have been no views on the above I have gone ahead and included a mention that Beowulf was a specific influence. Shippey emphasises this many times in his book, and there seems to be agreement that Shippey is an authoritative source. The sentence I have added is short, and perhaps doesn't give Beowulf the prominence it should have (compared to Wagner's Ring Cycle, for example), but the section on influences is already very long in my opinion. I have also deleted the reference to Celtic mythology, as I have never seen anything to justify this (although Tolkien was influenced by the Welsh *language*) and it seems to contradict some sources (as well as Curry, who I mention above, Shippey says Tolkien was trying to reconstruct an imaginary world which he believed did exist, as an imaginary world, in the past. Ie, he was not influenced by different traditions - it was a northern European mythology that he was trying to recreate). It goes without saying that there may be a source who does see Celtic influences whom I have not read, but perhaps if someone reinstates the reference to Celtic influences they could include a citation? Hobson 19:50, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
The characters section needs a lead-in for the main article and so far it's got three citation needed tags, and I'm seeing a few sentences that look like they're uncited as well. Is the article really going down hill this fast from when it was promoted? The Filmaker 01:36, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I found five actually, but I'm hoping soon afterward someone with a copy of Letters will fill some in. But to be honest, the article is still very top level. Wiki-newbie 15:59, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Why does a featured article have a paragraph (on absolute power) that looks like original research and is spewed with {{ fact}} tags. Can't this be nuked at least for today? Thatcher131 04:24, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
When I moved to revert a small piece of vandalism on this article, I saw a message concerning the length of the article. To address this problem, I think the Back Story section is the prime candidate for massive cuts. Whilst a bit of background to Sauron is necessary for a story synopsis of LOTR, what is not needed in this article is a full story synopsis of events outside the LOTR books themselves. That is, story synopses of the First and Second Ages should be kept in separate articles about Tolkien's legendarium. Darcyj 04:28, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I have just gone through and done a few more tweaks and trimmings of the Back Story section - we do not, for instance, need to know that it was Smeagol's maternal grandmother who banished him. But really, as Charles T. Betz says, the whole section suffers from wild indulgence, and I wonder if it is indeed necessary at all. Also, the map of Numenor seems completely irrelevant to the thrust of the (back)story. Genedecanter 05:49, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
THE BACKSTORY IS KINDA STRANGE, SO IS THE EDIT ON THE BACKSTORY —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.151.53.90 ( talk • contribs) 08:04, 5 October 2006
I'm a bit loath to cut them out without soliciting opinion first, but since the LotR/D&D relationship is established earlier in this section, surely we don't need to include all the video games based on D&D in the list? Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights are D&D role-playing games, so they're "influenced by LotR" by third-generation associations at this point. -- MattShepherd 14:32, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
We need more vandal fighters watching this article. I've been trying to keep up with it but my connection is slow, and often more vandalism happens when I'm fixing other vandalism. -- Fang Aili talk 15:08, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh my gosh! Like half the page is messed up! There's random stuff everywhere huge parts deleted, and example images this is ugly! Man, I wish these stupid vandals would leave. Caleb09 23:22, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh good it's fixed now :) Caleb09 23:22, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
The vandalism thing is horrible. Orcs and Beavers at the Council of Elrond? -- Tg81182 00:00, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Wiki-newbie 15:20, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I noticed the first category at the bottom of this article is "Articles with unsourced statements". Considering this is a featured article, it may be wise to give references for any unsourced statements that have been overlooked. Grimhelm 15:23, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
This is a list of unsourced statements tagged with "citation needed" tags. These have been temporarily removed while the article is featured on the main page (though the judgment of this editor is that the statements are essentially correct and not misleading, so do not need removing completely. References will be added in a day or two. Carcharoth 15:58, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't have a reference, but it seems clear that "Paradise Lost" was a fundamental source for much of Tolkien's material. Although their common debt to Christian theology and tradition may cloud the case for influence, there do seem to be specific correspondences in terms of content, style and theme. Milton's Satan is the model for Melkor; Milton's cosmology the model for Ea; his account of angelic war is very similar to Tolkien's; Milton's appropriation of Greek myth into the Judeo-Christian mythology is the same technique Tolkien adopts for incorporating all the various myths and mythological systems he uses; and, thematically, the idea of the fortunate fall (that in the course of the deity's larger plan good will always come of evil) pervades Tolkien's story as thoroughly as it does Milton's.
Another deeply Christian text that influenced Tolkien was John Milton's epic poem, Paradise Lost. Milton's depiction of the fallen angel Lucifer was a direct influence on Tolkien's creation of Sauron.
I've just edited the templates at the bottom of the page, but is it really necessary to have two? The first is quite big for its kind anyway, and they are automatically hidden when there are two or more on a page, which kind of defeats the object of having them in the first place (i.e. to provide easy linkages to related articles). I propose that the second, smaller one ( Template:Middle-earth) be removed, as everything contained in there is also on the first one. I also agree with Carcharoth above that they are in an inaccessible position within the page; the vast majority of people will not read the whole article due to its length, and even if someone does, they will almost certainly not scroll past the references. Comments? Time3000 16:51, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
On 5th October 2006, this article was featured at Main Page as the featured article for that day. During the course of the day, the article received a high level of exposure, with 453 edits. Mostly vandalism that was soon reverted, but the difference between the beginning and the end of the day (between non-vandalised versions) can be seen here. It's a bit confusing, as the diff algorithm doesn't get it quite right, but it gives you and idea of what changed. Carcharoth 00:20, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Maybe I am misremembering the Silmarillion, but I am fairly certain there are a few errors in the backstory.
-Annatar gave the rings out before he forged the One Ring and revealed he was Sauron, triggering the war. The story here gets it backwards and claims he had to take the rings through conquest before distributing them.
-The elvish rings were not independent of the One Ring. All the rings were subject to the influence of it, which is why the elves dreaded Sauron recovering the ring- he would have been able to effortlessly undo everything they had done since the One Ring was lost.
I suspect there are other errors. I have to dig the Silmarillion out of my boxes. Beerslurpy 03:06, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I note that several times correct English spellings have been changed to American, at least once with the blunt summary "rv poor spelling". Since this is about a book originally published in the UK, by an English author, is it Wikipedia custom to use English or American spellings of words such as dramatisation/dramatization? Cactus Wren 05:47, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
just to nit pick i believe that the hobbit was actually written after the lord of the rings, and only published first. And to be even more nit picky both were written after parts of the silmarillion, though that book was only finished and assembled after both the hobbit and LOTR were published.
A disappointingly inadequate amount of attention is given in this article to the languages in the Lord of the Rings. See "Language-making was Tolkien's hobby for most of his life. He is known to have constructed his first languages (Animalic and Nevbosh) at a little over thirteen and he continued to ponder upon his creations up until his death more than sixty-five years later. Language invention had always been tightly connected to the mythology that Tolkien developed, as he found that a language could not be complete without the history of the people who spoke it, just as these people could never be fully realistic if imagined only through the English and as speaking English. Tolkien therefore took the stance of a translator and adaptor rather than that of the original author of his works..." from Languages of Arda.
And from the author's own pen: "The making of language and mythology are related functions. Your language construction will breed a mythology" (MC:210-211).
And again: "The invention of languages is the foundation. The 'stories' were made rather to provide a world for the languages than the reverse. To me a name comes first and the story follows... [LotR] is to me...largely an essay in 'linguistic aesthetic', as I sometimes say to people who ask me 'what is it all about?' " (Letters:219-220)
And even complained: Few people took this explanation seriously. "Nobody believes me when I say that my long book is an attempt to create a world in which a form of language agreeable to my personal aesthetic might seem real, but it is true." - Letters:264.
To the author, it seems, the language superceded the books in importance, yet here they are barely mentioned...-- Josh Rocchio 17:39, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
The first paragraph in The Lord of the Rings#Publication has a list of three dates for each of the books. At least to me wikimedia is parsing the dates strangely. The wikicode is:
and is printing as
Anyone else seeing that? I fiddled with it a little bit and couldn't fix it. Any ideas how to fix?
— Wrathchild ( talk) 16:23, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
I came across this sentence in the "critical response" section:
I think the point of the sentence is important to the article, so its meaning should be kept; but, although I'm cetainly no fan myself of censorship (in any form), what is Wikipedia's policy on expletives? -- Todeswalzer| Talk 18:47, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I certainly didn't mean to suggest that the quote be removed or modified in some way in order to please the easily-offended; I was simply somewhat surprised to come across it on Wikipedia. As I pointed out in my previous comment, the thrust of the quote is important to the article and, having read the policy page mentioned by Dystopos, it seems pretty clear that there is no need to modify the passage. The clarificaiton is appreciated. -- Todeswalzer| Talk 19:31, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Quite embarrassing for an encyclopedia to sport "spoiler" warnings. It should be quite obvious that an article like this will "give away" plot details. Morningmusic 13:36, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I reverted it. Most articles on books or films have these warnings. Wiki-newbie 13:49, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
There's been arguements before on the spoiler template page too. But keep them. Wiki-newbie 18:53, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
I have recommended the Wikipedia website to my students, who are aged 16-19, for research purposes, however they have struggled to understand some of the articles. This is mainly due to the complexity of the language used. The readability score of the article is 10.73, which is the years of education needed to be able to understand this article on the first reading. The article could be improved by reducing the length of the sentences, reducing the length of the paragraphs and replacing difficult words with more commonly used ones which would make the article more accessible to a wider and perhaps younger audience. Would any of the editors be prepared to review the article to make it easier to read and thus more accessible to more users? Sarahhcfe 14:10, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Hang on, they're 16-19 and don't get it? Wiki-newbie 17:48, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
It is not beyond em! I am 14 (first time I have said this on wikipedia, hope my opinions don't get trashed because of this) , I am no spectacular genius, and it is quite readable. QUITE READABLE! If any english speaking 16 year old can't read this article, I must say he probably has flunked every grade/class that he has been in- starting with kindergarten. I don't like the modern trend of making everything dummed down, easy to read and "appropriate" for someone- yopu can't progress that way. Sorry if this post seems a bit to scathing. Zantaggerung 04:00, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I've removed this statement.
To say that Tolkien's largest influences, as opposed to just influences (as described in the opening line of The_Lord_of_the_Rings#Influences), were Catholic is an extremely strong statement which isn't supported by a Tolkien quote. The ref given is for the Decent Films Guide, "a site of film appreciation, information, and criticism informed by Christian faith." [3] So it's neither objective generally, nor authoritative in respect of Tolkien.
Obviously if someone finds Tolkien saying that his faith was his number one influence, the assertion can go back in - but in that case it will use a Tolkien quote not this website anyway. Cheers, JackyR | Talk 12:09, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Oops, didn't mean to start a hare. I was just trying to justify removing that particular sentence in case anyone got touchy, as it involves religion. The existing religious refs are probably enough, and there's already a good one from Tolkien's letters. C, sorry to distract you from that Annotated Hobbit... ;-) JackyR | Talk 03:06, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Would we refer to LOTR as a novel or as a trilogy? Would it be considered one book or three (or six)? Valley2city 21:37, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
The single book of The Lord of the Rings tends to be published in 3 volumes each containing 2 of the 6 parts that make up the story. Zantaggerung 13:23, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
The article The Ring Goes South redirects here, but the article does not explain why and does not use that phrase. I thought that this was Tolkien's own title for book two (of six) and was hoping for confirmation. If the title redirects here, the article should explain it. -- Dominus 07:35, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
"Other critics, such as Brenda Partridge, have claimed that the books incorporate excessive phallic symbolism, which they believe creates a misogynistic tone. These critics point to the emphasis on swords, towers, staffs, and similarly-shaped objects."
Oh please. I know this isn't a forum, but this just seems silly. It's fantasy, and much of the genre contains swords, towers, and other such objects. If you're going to criticize The Lord of the Rings for it, why not other fantasy works like the Harry Potter series? Does the use of wands by its female characters represent penis envy? How about Arthurian legends? If one wants to look for sexual symbolism there, Arthur pulls a sword out of something (pretty obvious), and breaks it (erectile dysfunction), but his power is restored when he gets a new one (Viagra?). And aren't the naming and reverence for swords borrowed from Germanic culture?
The stuff is cited, but should it stay? Of course, one shouldn't leave out what some people think if it's true that they think that way and if it's notable, but is it? I'm making the text invisible for now, until we get this settled. Uthanc 21:52, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Having read the various Tolkien biographies and knowing a little about the academic middle classes of the prewar period, I would be surprised personally if JRRT even knew what a phallus was, or if he was aware of it, would accept it's use in a literary context other than in Greek classical theatre. :-) MarkThomas 10:51, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Another possible source may be Shakespeare's Macbeth. Within the tragedy set in medieval Scotland lie many symbols also found in Tolkien's (an English professor) epic. Among them 'the cracks of doom', the moving forests, the rebellious dead rising, a 10,000 strong army signalling doom, a speech by Lady MacDuff that is echoed in the words of Eowyn (that though a woman may not commit harm by the sword, she may yet have harm done upon her) and MacBeth's cursing of the sun similarly to Gollum's. The continuing theme of the temptation for power (represented in both the golden ring and the golden crown) even in the hearts of the true and noble men, is especially found in a speech given by Prince Malcolm. The inheritance of the throne is the driving force behind both plots, as is the consulting of dark forces to foretell the future of the land - the three witches for MacBeth and Galadriel's Mirror for Middle Earth.
The Caesarean section bit is fulfilled several times in the book, for example, by things being "vomited out of the earth" at various points in Mordor. QED. Let's rewrite the whole article as one long series of allegories. Jokingly, Mark. MarkThomas 10:23, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
In my view, the lead and plot sections are far too long. The lead definitely needs more focus on the book rather than Tolkien's whole mythology, and the Plot seemingly dwadles. Anyone got any agreements before I start some clean-up? Wiki-newbie 14:47, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Are there sections which deserve their own articles, like the "adaptations" and "pop culture" sections? Maybe the "influences" one, but we'd have to cite everything new. Uthanc 09:31, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Alex Lamb 03:23, 15 December 2006 (UTC) I think we should get more pictures to show more detail about The Lord of the Rings. Alex Lamb 03:23, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
We don't need more fair use images than nessessary. Wiki-newbie 21:22, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Is there a LotR Wikipedia? If so post it on my talk page and here because I will not have this page on my watchlist. Eiyuu Kou 03:46, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
User:Redpointist has continually been adding a link to the external links section. A number of people here have been reverting the addition, citing 'spam' as the reason, but Redpointist has continually been putting the link back in. This has happened five times in the last 20 hours, a clear violation of the three-revert rule. I advised Redpointist on their user talk page that in order to avoid an edit war, s/he should seek consensus on this discussion page. S/he removed my suggestion. Redpointist has also received the first three spam warnings on their talk page. I would appreciate it if someone else here could help to explain why the link in question is spam, and also help out with any next steps that might need to be taken. -- Macduff 21:58, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
>>>If you can show me that the link provided does not meet the requirements for a welcome external link I will stop re adding it. I have looked and it meets all requirements. You've done nothing besides blindly lable it as spam. The link contains resources valuable to the topic, but not content with should be added into the body of the article itself. I welcome your response.
(I guess Lord of the Rings Library isn't too different from these)
I don't see why that collection of links would be harmfull. Anyone searching the topic would find them relevant, and to include all of their relevant content into the article itself would make the article obscenely and excessively long. I think they should be added back. While Wikipedia is not MERELY a collection of external links, of all the things that it is, that is one of those things...and rightly so. Quick accessability to information is a valuable asset.
It's one of the things that makes wikipedia different (and so much better!) from a written encyclopedia, afterall. Redpointist 01:34, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Contribute cited text, not bare links. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a link farm. If you have a source to contribute, first contribute some facts that you learned from that source, then cite the source. Don't simply direct readers to another site for the useful facts; add useful facts to the article, then cite the site where you found them. You're here to improve Wikipedia -- not just to funnel readers off Wikipedia and onto some other site, right?
Do not cite secondary sources or tertiary sources; this includes the Encyclopedia of Arda, The Complete Guide to Middle-earth, and A Tolkien Bestiary. Instead use primary sources ( reliable sources) such as published texts by Tolkien or secondary source of The History of Middle-earth edited by Christopher Tolkien.
Remember that the External links serves as further reading, not advertisement. Wikipedia is not a link farm nor a web directory. Do not link to ten or more sites. There are exceptions to this case, but a vast quantity of external links are usually frowned upon. Three to four links are usually enough.
The following sites should be linked: Official sites (that majorly relate to the topic), articles about the subject of article on other encyclopedias or vast resources (e.g. Encyclopedia of Arda, The Thain's Book, Annals of Arda, The TolkienWiki), and sites that contain neutral and accurate information that has not been mentioned in the article. On controversial articles that contain multiple POV, have at least equal amount of sites presenting each POV with a detailed explanation.
The following sites that are occasionally acceptable: professional reviews reviewing books, movies, etc. (e.g. IMDB), ONE very informative fansite about the subject of article, web directory full of informative fansites.
The following should be avoided and are generally not acceptable: fanlistings (because they are not generally informative), multiple fansites, web directories (for exceptions, see above).
Redpointist, I have two questions:
-- Macduff 02:55, 3 January 2007 (UTC)\
1. The Lord of the Rings Fanatics Library: Maia Sauron Description: A page describing the Maia Sauron
2. The Lord of the Rings Fanatics Library: Sauron returns to Mordor
Description: This page details the events preceding Saurons reappearance in Mordor, from his inhabitation of Dol Guldur, to his fleeing after being attacked by the White Council
3. The Lord of the Rings Fanatics Library: Sauron Invades Eriador
Description: A description of the maneuvers of Sauron once he decided to invade Eriador and the outcome of his attacks.
4. The Lord of the Rings Fanatics Library: The Siege of Barad-dûr and the Defeat of Sauron
Description: The long tale of the seven bitter years spent laying siege upon Barad-dûr until Sauron was finally defeated.
5. The Lord of the Rings Fanatics Library: The End of the Story
Description: This page trails the moments of Aragorn’s and Arwen’s relationship from the Fall of Sauron and the following of their footsteps until they both passed away. .
6. The Lord of the Rings Fanatics Library: Major Timeline of the Second Age
Description: This page takes a look at the events of the Second Age and features the rise and fall of Sauron.
7. The Lord of the Rings Fanatics Library: Last Alliance
Description: This page tells of the battle of Dagorlad, in which the armies of the Last Alliance defeat Sauron, and then go their seperate ways.
8. The Lord of the Rings Fanatics Library: Battle of Dagorlad
Description: This page tells of the battle of Dagorlad, in which the armies of the Last Alliance defeat Sauron, and then go their seperate ways.
9. The Lord of the Rings Fanatics Library: Fields of Cormallen
Description: This page describes the celebration at the Fields of Cormallen, after Sauron is defeated, as told in chapter 4 of Return of the King, book 2
10. The Lord of the Rings Fanatics Library: Elrond During the Second Age
Description: The life of Elrond up to the taking of the One Ring by Isildur from Sauron.
These articles refer to specific events, ideas, and interactions that are beyond the scope of anything that should be directly included on the page.
Redpointist 00:08, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Removed "A good deal of the book Eragon, by Christopher Paolini, was also heavily inspired by The Lord of the Rings." not because I think it's false, but because it would look better if we mentioned more authors who acknowledge LOTR as an influence (properly cited). Or perhaps this sort of thing would better on Works inspired by J. R. R. Tolkien? (I looked and Works inspired by J. R. R. Tolkien already mentions this book/author.) Uthanc 11:57, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Large sections of this article are written in an in-universe perspective, contradicting the Wikipedia manual of style (see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_%28writing_about_fiction%29). Am I wrong? If not, is there a reason for this? Hobson 03:08, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
If anyone wants to add more on the publishing history, a few snippets could be used and cited from this article. Just some of the facts and figures would be good. Carcharoth 03:22, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
What about Slavic mythology influence? Boromir is pure Slavic name; Moria is one of the names of goddess in Slavic mythology (Mora, Morana, goddess of winter and death). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 91.148.97.79 ( talk) 23:04, 19 March 2007 (UTC).
Well its certainly true, but perhaps a citation? Sultangris 00:14, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I dont think you should have removed that peice in the Lord of the Rings article, yes it did need some citations but it wasn't nonfactual, the observations made were completely correct and taken directly from the books. In my opinion there was not enough straight opinion or speculation to warrant an outright removal. Sultangris 02:24, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Critics might not go there, but there are newspaper articles and papers on the topic (hard to find) and far-right websites (not hard to find, unfortunately). The Tolkien and racism article was deleted, and I agree the title is bad even if the content might have been rescuable. We do currently have Minority criticisms of The Lord of the Rings (which frankly is pretty poor). We also have Middle Men, which is probably relevant as well. There are definite themes here, but they need to be presented and sourced with care. This article is not really the place for them. Carcharoth 15:53, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
you guys could say more about the plot and actors and....well everything!!!........
p.s. i like peter jacksons work!
What's this about a fourth book? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.228.134.143 ( talk) 23:32, 26 March 2007 (UTC).
I just removed an addition of a succession box for the Big Read poll. This poll really deserves only a brief mention in the article. A succession box gives it too much prominence, and readers should be directed to the article Big Read if they want information like this. Carcharoth 10:08, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
The story summary of this article is good, but the biggest flaw is that it doesn't distinguish well between elves and men.
By the way this is also one of my biggest problems with the movie trilogy, it gives the idea that elves are basically superior humans. Zantaggerung 03:40, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Conventionally, a synopsis in English is in the present tense, reserving the past tense for events that took place before the action of the story. The use of the past tense throughout the synopsis in this article creates unnecessary confusion. I'd change it myself, but it's been years since I read the book and I wouldn't want to make any mistakes.-- Ibis3 19:49, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Wikiproject Middle-earth uses present tense, supposedly due to Tolkien's writing style. Alientraveller 19:51, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Do you mean past tense Alientraveller? If so, to use past tense when speaking about the action of a present novel is illogical, no matter who the writer. Just take a look at this paragraph I pulled out at random:
Later, much of the story's exposition is given during a high council, attended by representatives of the major races of Middle-earth; Elves, Dwarves, and Men and presided over by Elrond. Gandalf told them of the emerging threat of Saruman, the leader of the Order of Wizards, who wanted the Ring for himself and had imprisoned him for a time. In order to fulfil an ancient prophecy about the return of the King of Gondor and Arnor, Aragorn was going to war against Sauron, armed with the royal sword Narsil, which had cut the Ring from Sauron's finger. After pondering several choices, the Council decided that the only course of action that could save Middle-earth was to destroy the Ring by taking it to Mordor and casting it into Mount Doom, where it was forged.
Okay, it starts off all right. There *is* a high council, but Gandalf *told* them of the emerging threat. When? Before the council (maybe before the action of the book). Saruman wanted the Ring for himself before the council (so it was emerging some time in the ancient past?); Aragorn was going to war sometime before that--maybe right after the Ring being cut. And if I didn't know that the Ring was forged long before any of these events, I'd be totally confused by the last sentence. In fact, the only reason I can follow this at all is because I've already read the book (& watched the movies). If a person were coming here to get a lucid summary of the book, they'd have to cross their eyes and hope for a bolt of lightning to straighten things out. -- Ibis3 20:08, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Ibis3, there is absolutely no reason that I can see why this synopsis should not be in the present tense, as it is with any other work of fiction. After all, why should The Lord of the Rings be held separate from other epic works of imaginative fiction, such as The Chronicles of Narnia, His Dark Materials, or Le Guin's Earthsea series, to name but a few off the top of my head? All of these have extensive secondary worlds, and I know that plenty of other fantasy books and series are even more extensive in their worlds and fictional histories. (The Star Wars articles are probably a relevant point of reference also, in terms of the breadth of their secondary world).
What's more, even the Tolkien pages are not internally consistent. This synopsis is already inconsistent by using a combination of past and present tense, which is just plain confusing. But then look at the synopses in the articles for FotR, TTT and RotK. They are written in present tense, as are a number of articles on other writings of Tolkien's in the legendarium (the Ainulindale and Valaquenta, for example).
So, 1) whatever is decided, let it be consistent, and 2) I strongly argue that present tense is the appropriate tense to use here. This encyclopedia should be consistent in style throughout. And consider: this article isn't written for hardcore Tolkien scholars, it is written for any casual reader interested in learning about this book, and for this reason it should be in keeping with the style of any other article on Wikipedia. It may be a fictional narrative that is attached to an imaginary historical legendarium, but it is still just a fictional narrative. Genedecanter 04:52, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
As this debate seems to be at somewhat of an impasse, I'm thinking I might put out a Request for Comment, so that I can elicit a broader range of opinions on this. If someone objects to my doing this please let me know, but as far as I can see it would be the best way to proceed. Genedecanter 11:04, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
"The action in The Lord of the Rings is set in what the author conceived to be the lands of the real Earth, inhabited by humanity but placed in a fictional past, before our science but after the fall of his version of Atlantis, which he calls Númenor." -- I think that this can be phrased better, and I have boldly made the change. "Our science" is generally considered to have begun circa 1580-1700 with such figures as Galileo, Francis Bacon, and Isaac Newton. -- Writtenonsand 22:30, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
The first two paragraphs of the synopsis feel like they should be elsewhere in the article, most likely in the Publication and Publication History sections. Perhaps parts of the first paragraph could remain, for clarification of the division of the story into its sections, but the second paragraph has no bearing on the synopsis being told. Anyone got thoughts about this? Genedecanter 22:10, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Why is the synopsis written in past tense, as opposed to present tense as indicated in
WP:WAF#Presentation of fictional material? —
Swpb
talk
contribs 21:28, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand the difference between these two sections, and if no one objects I would like to conflate them into one, probably called Publication history. Genedecanter 07:00, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
This is a great artical requesting protection please —Preceding unsigned comment added by AragornSonOfArathorn ( talk • contribs)
Needs fixing, as if the first book ends with the fellowship's coming to Rivendell
I've reworded the sentence from the opening paragraph of the intro, the one concerning Tolkien being annoyed at the book being published in three volumes. There was a reference to this URL: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0866058/bio, which contained this text: Was extremely annoyed when 'The Lord of the Rings' was published in the mid-50s as three different stories, because he had never intended the tale to become a trilogy. First of all, I don't think we should be referencing user-written 'biographies' from imdb.com, hardly an authoritative source. Secondly, I believe that the information here is fundamentally misleading, and Tolkien well understood the situation of the postwar paper shortage and other related difficulties, which made publishing a volume the size of LOTR a troublesome proposition, and he accepted the three volume idea as an imperfect but workable compromise. Genedecanter 14:53, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I've got a bunch of ideas about things that ought to be changed around or altered to improve the quality and readability of the article, so I figured I'd just list them all here for easy perusal:
Well, that's a few things for starters anyway. Please reply with any comments, additions or disagreements. Cheers, Genedecanter 15:44, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 9 |
after reading the section on the reception of lotr, i feel that you are all digging just a bit. i mean sexism racism blah blah blah blah. this is a literary masterpiece. very few have had the command over the english language that tolkien possessed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.192.20.87 ( talk) 05:36, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Could someone please post the date that the copyright will expire?
Under current US, UK and Berne Convention law, copyright extends until the end of the calendar year 70 years after the death of the author, so the Lord of the Rings will enter the public domain on 1/1/2044 (barring future changes in the law). Solicitr 15:11, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
"The hobbits also learned that Sauron's forces can only be resisted if Aragorn took up his inheritance and fulfilled an ancient prophecy by wielding the sword Andúril, which had been forged anew from the shards of Narsil, the sword that cut the Ring from Sauron's finger in the Second Age."
Before I edit this part of the synopsis, I would first like to understand others' perception. To me it seems more influenced by the movie triology's interpolation of Aragorn than by that of the book (i.e. 'Sauron's forces can ONLY be resisted' evokes more the Aragorn-centric angst of the movie, than the stoic persistence of the book). In the book, the reforging of Narsil is not so much Aragorn taking up his inheritance as the next step in the realisation of his destiny. Therefore, as the book is the subject of this article it might be more appropriate to speak of the dream that prompted Boromir to travel to Rivendell, which Aragorn viewed as a summons to Minas Tirith.
Is this others' perception? BDB79 08:02, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
They undy. MarkThomas 19:16, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, I wouldn't say it directly symbolizes heaven (not so much as Mandos may represent purgatory) in that only Elves (as well as the ring-bearers) can go there, but in Christianity, any good person can go to heaven, though probably after purgatory. Tolkien wouldn't consider men and dwarves to necessarily be bad, its just that their fëar are more temporary. I think Tolkien did intend a connection between heaven and Aman, though.
I also don't think that they "undy" when they go there. For example, Frodo, Galadriel, and Elrond, never really die, even symbolically, though Frodo is literally and figuratively hurt and burdened. Also, it was never directly stated that when Frodo and Sam, and later Gimli go to Valinor they become immortal; in fact, it probably isn't so. -- queso man 22:46, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
194.60.106.5 12:56, 5 October 2006 (UTC)Is Middle-Earth actually China, as the country in Chinese has 'Middle' as part of the name? And think of all the wars and invasions of the West from the East, from the Huns to the Mongols. 5 Oct 06
Except for the fact that much of the culture is anglo-saxon and norse and stuff. And does it matter?- Ran da l l l in 17:22, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
ps Tolkien even says its not or in fact says that middle-earth is something else in letters.- Ran da l l l in 17:23, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
No mention of beowulf? Beowulf was a huge influence to the Lord of the Rings. I think it should be added to the article. Neokyotodragon 09:23, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
yes beowulf was a very great influence should include
Randalllin 18:44, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
It should be mentioned in the Tolkien article that Tolkien studied and taught Beowulf and nothing more, unless there is a specific source that says it influenced it. However, I do recall reading about Beowulf influencing Tolkien's works a long time ago (read, more than 10 years ago, when I was a Tolkien fanatic), but I wouldn't be able to tell you where. Find it if you want to include it. -- Wirbelwind 22:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Uthanc is right! The nazgul's mounts are not dragons. ( I don't like calling 'em fell beasts, because thats not really a name, its a description, but that is beside the point) Zantaggerung 03:46, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Right. Start at The Hobbit#Similarities to Beowulf and Talk:The_Hobbit#Beowulf. These compare the actual contents, which may or not be an act of WP:OR (different people take different stands), and debate the question – but importantly state that the annotated Hobbit includes Tolkien's own word on the matter. Surely someone on this page has a copy?
Then the "talking heads" documentaries on Tolkien in the PJ film appendices. Herewith the transcribed the sequence:
[Ref for all this: The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers (Special Extended DVD Edition). , "J. R. R. Tolkien: Origins of Middle-earth" ("Appendices Part 3: The Journey Continues...") New Line Home Entertainment Inc (2003)]
I'd rather others made the final judgement on which of these are sufficiently authoritative to be quoted, but I'd say it's more a problem of how to phrase and reference this than with the authority of the first two. Presumably a convenient chunk from Shippey's written publications would trump this, if someone has it. But it's clear it should be pursued. Job for someone with far too much Tolkien material...? JackyR | Talk 22:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
'fortham Offa waes geoflim ond guthum garcene man wide geweorthod wisdome heold ethel sinne thonon Eomer woc haelethum to helpe... ' (2) (Emphases mine))
Which Alexander (see bibliography) translates thus:)
[1] Uthanc 04:40, 9 November 2006 (UTC)'So it was that Offa [i.e. king of the continental Angles], brave with the spear, was spoken of abroad for his wars and his gifts; he governed with wisdom the land of his birth. To him was born Eomer, helper of the heroes...' (3)
From JRR Tolkien, Author of the Century – by Tom Shippey
HarperCollins 2001 paperback edition, page 94.
The Riders of the Mark are then a reconstruction from many sources, like so much in Tolkien, a blend of ancient and modern, the strange and the familiar, the learned (like *éored) and the absolutely matter of fact (like the place name Emneth). The underlying model for much of what they do and how they behave is furthermore perfectly obviously the Old English epic Beowulf, which Tolkien knew so well. Théoden’s hall is called Meduseld; so is Beowulf’s. The courts around it are called Edoras; see again Beowulf, line 1037. In the chapter “The King of the Golden Hall”, the etiquette of arrival and reception corresponds to that of Beowulf point for point.
Hobson 02:42, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Okay, as there have been no views on the above I have gone ahead and included a mention that Beowulf was a specific influence. Shippey emphasises this many times in his book, and there seems to be agreement that Shippey is an authoritative source. The sentence I have added is short, and perhaps doesn't give Beowulf the prominence it should have (compared to Wagner's Ring Cycle, for example), but the section on influences is already very long in my opinion. I have also deleted the reference to Celtic mythology, as I have never seen anything to justify this (although Tolkien was influenced by the Welsh *language*) and it seems to contradict some sources (as well as Curry, who I mention above, Shippey says Tolkien was trying to reconstruct an imaginary world which he believed did exist, as an imaginary world, in the past. Ie, he was not influenced by different traditions - it was a northern European mythology that he was trying to recreate). It goes without saying that there may be a source who does see Celtic influences whom I have not read, but perhaps if someone reinstates the reference to Celtic influences they could include a citation? Hobson 19:50, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
The characters section needs a lead-in for the main article and so far it's got three citation needed tags, and I'm seeing a few sentences that look like they're uncited as well. Is the article really going down hill this fast from when it was promoted? The Filmaker 01:36, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I found five actually, but I'm hoping soon afterward someone with a copy of Letters will fill some in. But to be honest, the article is still very top level. Wiki-newbie 15:59, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Why does a featured article have a paragraph (on absolute power) that looks like original research and is spewed with {{ fact}} tags. Can't this be nuked at least for today? Thatcher131 04:24, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
When I moved to revert a small piece of vandalism on this article, I saw a message concerning the length of the article. To address this problem, I think the Back Story section is the prime candidate for massive cuts. Whilst a bit of background to Sauron is necessary for a story synopsis of LOTR, what is not needed in this article is a full story synopsis of events outside the LOTR books themselves. That is, story synopses of the First and Second Ages should be kept in separate articles about Tolkien's legendarium. Darcyj 04:28, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I have just gone through and done a few more tweaks and trimmings of the Back Story section - we do not, for instance, need to know that it was Smeagol's maternal grandmother who banished him. But really, as Charles T. Betz says, the whole section suffers from wild indulgence, and I wonder if it is indeed necessary at all. Also, the map of Numenor seems completely irrelevant to the thrust of the (back)story. Genedecanter 05:49, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
THE BACKSTORY IS KINDA STRANGE, SO IS THE EDIT ON THE BACKSTORY —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.151.53.90 ( talk • contribs) 08:04, 5 October 2006
I'm a bit loath to cut them out without soliciting opinion first, but since the LotR/D&D relationship is established earlier in this section, surely we don't need to include all the video games based on D&D in the list? Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights are D&D role-playing games, so they're "influenced by LotR" by third-generation associations at this point. -- MattShepherd 14:32, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
We need more vandal fighters watching this article. I've been trying to keep up with it but my connection is slow, and often more vandalism happens when I'm fixing other vandalism. -- Fang Aili talk 15:08, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh my gosh! Like half the page is messed up! There's random stuff everywhere huge parts deleted, and example images this is ugly! Man, I wish these stupid vandals would leave. Caleb09 23:22, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh good it's fixed now :) Caleb09 23:22, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
The vandalism thing is horrible. Orcs and Beavers at the Council of Elrond? -- Tg81182 00:00, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Wiki-newbie 15:20, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I noticed the first category at the bottom of this article is "Articles with unsourced statements". Considering this is a featured article, it may be wise to give references for any unsourced statements that have been overlooked. Grimhelm 15:23, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
This is a list of unsourced statements tagged with "citation needed" tags. These have been temporarily removed while the article is featured on the main page (though the judgment of this editor is that the statements are essentially correct and not misleading, so do not need removing completely. References will be added in a day or two. Carcharoth 15:58, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't have a reference, but it seems clear that "Paradise Lost" was a fundamental source for much of Tolkien's material. Although their common debt to Christian theology and tradition may cloud the case for influence, there do seem to be specific correspondences in terms of content, style and theme. Milton's Satan is the model for Melkor; Milton's cosmology the model for Ea; his account of angelic war is very similar to Tolkien's; Milton's appropriation of Greek myth into the Judeo-Christian mythology is the same technique Tolkien adopts for incorporating all the various myths and mythological systems he uses; and, thematically, the idea of the fortunate fall (that in the course of the deity's larger plan good will always come of evil) pervades Tolkien's story as thoroughly as it does Milton's.
Another deeply Christian text that influenced Tolkien was John Milton's epic poem, Paradise Lost. Milton's depiction of the fallen angel Lucifer was a direct influence on Tolkien's creation of Sauron.
I've just edited the templates at the bottom of the page, but is it really necessary to have two? The first is quite big for its kind anyway, and they are automatically hidden when there are two or more on a page, which kind of defeats the object of having them in the first place (i.e. to provide easy linkages to related articles). I propose that the second, smaller one ( Template:Middle-earth) be removed, as everything contained in there is also on the first one. I also agree with Carcharoth above that they are in an inaccessible position within the page; the vast majority of people will not read the whole article due to its length, and even if someone does, they will almost certainly not scroll past the references. Comments? Time3000 16:51, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
On 5th October 2006, this article was featured at Main Page as the featured article for that day. During the course of the day, the article received a high level of exposure, with 453 edits. Mostly vandalism that was soon reverted, but the difference between the beginning and the end of the day (between non-vandalised versions) can be seen here. It's a bit confusing, as the diff algorithm doesn't get it quite right, but it gives you and idea of what changed. Carcharoth 00:20, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Maybe I am misremembering the Silmarillion, but I am fairly certain there are a few errors in the backstory.
-Annatar gave the rings out before he forged the One Ring and revealed he was Sauron, triggering the war. The story here gets it backwards and claims he had to take the rings through conquest before distributing them.
-The elvish rings were not independent of the One Ring. All the rings were subject to the influence of it, which is why the elves dreaded Sauron recovering the ring- he would have been able to effortlessly undo everything they had done since the One Ring was lost.
I suspect there are other errors. I have to dig the Silmarillion out of my boxes. Beerslurpy 03:06, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I note that several times correct English spellings have been changed to American, at least once with the blunt summary "rv poor spelling". Since this is about a book originally published in the UK, by an English author, is it Wikipedia custom to use English or American spellings of words such as dramatisation/dramatization? Cactus Wren 05:47, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
just to nit pick i believe that the hobbit was actually written after the lord of the rings, and only published first. And to be even more nit picky both were written after parts of the silmarillion, though that book was only finished and assembled after both the hobbit and LOTR were published.
A disappointingly inadequate amount of attention is given in this article to the languages in the Lord of the Rings. See "Language-making was Tolkien's hobby for most of his life. He is known to have constructed his first languages (Animalic and Nevbosh) at a little over thirteen and he continued to ponder upon his creations up until his death more than sixty-five years later. Language invention had always been tightly connected to the mythology that Tolkien developed, as he found that a language could not be complete without the history of the people who spoke it, just as these people could never be fully realistic if imagined only through the English and as speaking English. Tolkien therefore took the stance of a translator and adaptor rather than that of the original author of his works..." from Languages of Arda.
And from the author's own pen: "The making of language and mythology are related functions. Your language construction will breed a mythology" (MC:210-211).
And again: "The invention of languages is the foundation. The 'stories' were made rather to provide a world for the languages than the reverse. To me a name comes first and the story follows... [LotR] is to me...largely an essay in 'linguistic aesthetic', as I sometimes say to people who ask me 'what is it all about?' " (Letters:219-220)
And even complained: Few people took this explanation seriously. "Nobody believes me when I say that my long book is an attempt to create a world in which a form of language agreeable to my personal aesthetic might seem real, but it is true." - Letters:264.
To the author, it seems, the language superceded the books in importance, yet here they are barely mentioned...-- Josh Rocchio 17:39, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
The first paragraph in The Lord of the Rings#Publication has a list of three dates for each of the books. At least to me wikimedia is parsing the dates strangely. The wikicode is:
and is printing as
Anyone else seeing that? I fiddled with it a little bit and couldn't fix it. Any ideas how to fix?
— Wrathchild ( talk) 16:23, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
I came across this sentence in the "critical response" section:
I think the point of the sentence is important to the article, so its meaning should be kept; but, although I'm cetainly no fan myself of censorship (in any form), what is Wikipedia's policy on expletives? -- Todeswalzer| Talk 18:47, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I certainly didn't mean to suggest that the quote be removed or modified in some way in order to please the easily-offended; I was simply somewhat surprised to come across it on Wikipedia. As I pointed out in my previous comment, the thrust of the quote is important to the article and, having read the policy page mentioned by Dystopos, it seems pretty clear that there is no need to modify the passage. The clarificaiton is appreciated. -- Todeswalzer| Talk 19:31, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Quite embarrassing for an encyclopedia to sport "spoiler" warnings. It should be quite obvious that an article like this will "give away" plot details. Morningmusic 13:36, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I reverted it. Most articles on books or films have these warnings. Wiki-newbie 13:49, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
There's been arguements before on the spoiler template page too. But keep them. Wiki-newbie 18:53, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
I have recommended the Wikipedia website to my students, who are aged 16-19, for research purposes, however they have struggled to understand some of the articles. This is mainly due to the complexity of the language used. The readability score of the article is 10.73, which is the years of education needed to be able to understand this article on the first reading. The article could be improved by reducing the length of the sentences, reducing the length of the paragraphs and replacing difficult words with more commonly used ones which would make the article more accessible to a wider and perhaps younger audience. Would any of the editors be prepared to review the article to make it easier to read and thus more accessible to more users? Sarahhcfe 14:10, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Hang on, they're 16-19 and don't get it? Wiki-newbie 17:48, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
It is not beyond em! I am 14 (first time I have said this on wikipedia, hope my opinions don't get trashed because of this) , I am no spectacular genius, and it is quite readable. QUITE READABLE! If any english speaking 16 year old can't read this article, I must say he probably has flunked every grade/class that he has been in- starting with kindergarten. I don't like the modern trend of making everything dummed down, easy to read and "appropriate" for someone- yopu can't progress that way. Sorry if this post seems a bit to scathing. Zantaggerung 04:00, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I've removed this statement.
To say that Tolkien's largest influences, as opposed to just influences (as described in the opening line of The_Lord_of_the_Rings#Influences), were Catholic is an extremely strong statement which isn't supported by a Tolkien quote. The ref given is for the Decent Films Guide, "a site of film appreciation, information, and criticism informed by Christian faith." [3] So it's neither objective generally, nor authoritative in respect of Tolkien.
Obviously if someone finds Tolkien saying that his faith was his number one influence, the assertion can go back in - but in that case it will use a Tolkien quote not this website anyway. Cheers, JackyR | Talk 12:09, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Oops, didn't mean to start a hare. I was just trying to justify removing that particular sentence in case anyone got touchy, as it involves religion. The existing religious refs are probably enough, and there's already a good one from Tolkien's letters. C, sorry to distract you from that Annotated Hobbit... ;-) JackyR | Talk 03:06, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Would we refer to LOTR as a novel or as a trilogy? Would it be considered one book or three (or six)? Valley2city 21:37, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
The single book of The Lord of the Rings tends to be published in 3 volumes each containing 2 of the 6 parts that make up the story. Zantaggerung 13:23, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
The article The Ring Goes South redirects here, but the article does not explain why and does not use that phrase. I thought that this was Tolkien's own title for book two (of six) and was hoping for confirmation. If the title redirects here, the article should explain it. -- Dominus 07:35, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
"Other critics, such as Brenda Partridge, have claimed that the books incorporate excessive phallic symbolism, which they believe creates a misogynistic tone. These critics point to the emphasis on swords, towers, staffs, and similarly-shaped objects."
Oh please. I know this isn't a forum, but this just seems silly. It's fantasy, and much of the genre contains swords, towers, and other such objects. If you're going to criticize The Lord of the Rings for it, why not other fantasy works like the Harry Potter series? Does the use of wands by its female characters represent penis envy? How about Arthurian legends? If one wants to look for sexual symbolism there, Arthur pulls a sword out of something (pretty obvious), and breaks it (erectile dysfunction), but his power is restored when he gets a new one (Viagra?). And aren't the naming and reverence for swords borrowed from Germanic culture?
The stuff is cited, but should it stay? Of course, one shouldn't leave out what some people think if it's true that they think that way and if it's notable, but is it? I'm making the text invisible for now, until we get this settled. Uthanc 21:52, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Having read the various Tolkien biographies and knowing a little about the academic middle classes of the prewar period, I would be surprised personally if JRRT even knew what a phallus was, or if he was aware of it, would accept it's use in a literary context other than in Greek classical theatre. :-) MarkThomas 10:51, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Another possible source may be Shakespeare's Macbeth. Within the tragedy set in medieval Scotland lie many symbols also found in Tolkien's (an English professor) epic. Among them 'the cracks of doom', the moving forests, the rebellious dead rising, a 10,000 strong army signalling doom, a speech by Lady MacDuff that is echoed in the words of Eowyn (that though a woman may not commit harm by the sword, she may yet have harm done upon her) and MacBeth's cursing of the sun similarly to Gollum's. The continuing theme of the temptation for power (represented in both the golden ring and the golden crown) even in the hearts of the true and noble men, is especially found in a speech given by Prince Malcolm. The inheritance of the throne is the driving force behind both plots, as is the consulting of dark forces to foretell the future of the land - the three witches for MacBeth and Galadriel's Mirror for Middle Earth.
The Caesarean section bit is fulfilled several times in the book, for example, by things being "vomited out of the earth" at various points in Mordor. QED. Let's rewrite the whole article as one long series of allegories. Jokingly, Mark. MarkThomas 10:23, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
In my view, the lead and plot sections are far too long. The lead definitely needs more focus on the book rather than Tolkien's whole mythology, and the Plot seemingly dwadles. Anyone got any agreements before I start some clean-up? Wiki-newbie 14:47, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Are there sections which deserve their own articles, like the "adaptations" and "pop culture" sections? Maybe the "influences" one, but we'd have to cite everything new. Uthanc 09:31, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Alex Lamb 03:23, 15 December 2006 (UTC) I think we should get more pictures to show more detail about The Lord of the Rings. Alex Lamb 03:23, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
We don't need more fair use images than nessessary. Wiki-newbie 21:22, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Is there a LotR Wikipedia? If so post it on my talk page and here because I will not have this page on my watchlist. Eiyuu Kou 03:46, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
User:Redpointist has continually been adding a link to the external links section. A number of people here have been reverting the addition, citing 'spam' as the reason, but Redpointist has continually been putting the link back in. This has happened five times in the last 20 hours, a clear violation of the three-revert rule. I advised Redpointist on their user talk page that in order to avoid an edit war, s/he should seek consensus on this discussion page. S/he removed my suggestion. Redpointist has also received the first three spam warnings on their talk page. I would appreciate it if someone else here could help to explain why the link in question is spam, and also help out with any next steps that might need to be taken. -- Macduff 21:58, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
>>>If you can show me that the link provided does not meet the requirements for a welcome external link I will stop re adding it. I have looked and it meets all requirements. You've done nothing besides blindly lable it as spam. The link contains resources valuable to the topic, but not content with should be added into the body of the article itself. I welcome your response.
(I guess Lord of the Rings Library isn't too different from these)
I don't see why that collection of links would be harmfull. Anyone searching the topic would find them relevant, and to include all of their relevant content into the article itself would make the article obscenely and excessively long. I think they should be added back. While Wikipedia is not MERELY a collection of external links, of all the things that it is, that is one of those things...and rightly so. Quick accessability to information is a valuable asset.
It's one of the things that makes wikipedia different (and so much better!) from a written encyclopedia, afterall. Redpointist 01:34, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Contribute cited text, not bare links. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a link farm. If you have a source to contribute, first contribute some facts that you learned from that source, then cite the source. Don't simply direct readers to another site for the useful facts; add useful facts to the article, then cite the site where you found them. You're here to improve Wikipedia -- not just to funnel readers off Wikipedia and onto some other site, right?
Do not cite secondary sources or tertiary sources; this includes the Encyclopedia of Arda, The Complete Guide to Middle-earth, and A Tolkien Bestiary. Instead use primary sources ( reliable sources) such as published texts by Tolkien or secondary source of The History of Middle-earth edited by Christopher Tolkien.
Remember that the External links serves as further reading, not advertisement. Wikipedia is not a link farm nor a web directory. Do not link to ten or more sites. There are exceptions to this case, but a vast quantity of external links are usually frowned upon. Three to four links are usually enough.
The following sites should be linked: Official sites (that majorly relate to the topic), articles about the subject of article on other encyclopedias or vast resources (e.g. Encyclopedia of Arda, The Thain's Book, Annals of Arda, The TolkienWiki), and sites that contain neutral and accurate information that has not been mentioned in the article. On controversial articles that contain multiple POV, have at least equal amount of sites presenting each POV with a detailed explanation.
The following sites that are occasionally acceptable: professional reviews reviewing books, movies, etc. (e.g. IMDB), ONE very informative fansite about the subject of article, web directory full of informative fansites.
The following should be avoided and are generally not acceptable: fanlistings (because they are not generally informative), multiple fansites, web directories (for exceptions, see above).
Redpointist, I have two questions:
-- Macduff 02:55, 3 January 2007 (UTC)\
1. The Lord of the Rings Fanatics Library: Maia Sauron Description: A page describing the Maia Sauron
2. The Lord of the Rings Fanatics Library: Sauron returns to Mordor
Description: This page details the events preceding Saurons reappearance in Mordor, from his inhabitation of Dol Guldur, to his fleeing after being attacked by the White Council
3. The Lord of the Rings Fanatics Library: Sauron Invades Eriador
Description: A description of the maneuvers of Sauron once he decided to invade Eriador and the outcome of his attacks.
4. The Lord of the Rings Fanatics Library: The Siege of Barad-dûr and the Defeat of Sauron
Description: The long tale of the seven bitter years spent laying siege upon Barad-dûr until Sauron was finally defeated.
5. The Lord of the Rings Fanatics Library: The End of the Story
Description: This page trails the moments of Aragorn’s and Arwen’s relationship from the Fall of Sauron and the following of their footsteps until they both passed away. .
6. The Lord of the Rings Fanatics Library: Major Timeline of the Second Age
Description: This page takes a look at the events of the Second Age and features the rise and fall of Sauron.
7. The Lord of the Rings Fanatics Library: Last Alliance
Description: This page tells of the battle of Dagorlad, in which the armies of the Last Alliance defeat Sauron, and then go their seperate ways.
8. The Lord of the Rings Fanatics Library: Battle of Dagorlad
Description: This page tells of the battle of Dagorlad, in which the armies of the Last Alliance defeat Sauron, and then go their seperate ways.
9. The Lord of the Rings Fanatics Library: Fields of Cormallen
Description: This page describes the celebration at the Fields of Cormallen, after Sauron is defeated, as told in chapter 4 of Return of the King, book 2
10. The Lord of the Rings Fanatics Library: Elrond During the Second Age
Description: The life of Elrond up to the taking of the One Ring by Isildur from Sauron.
These articles refer to specific events, ideas, and interactions that are beyond the scope of anything that should be directly included on the page.
Redpointist 00:08, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Removed "A good deal of the book Eragon, by Christopher Paolini, was also heavily inspired by The Lord of the Rings." not because I think it's false, but because it would look better if we mentioned more authors who acknowledge LOTR as an influence (properly cited). Or perhaps this sort of thing would better on Works inspired by J. R. R. Tolkien? (I looked and Works inspired by J. R. R. Tolkien already mentions this book/author.) Uthanc 11:57, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Large sections of this article are written in an in-universe perspective, contradicting the Wikipedia manual of style (see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_%28writing_about_fiction%29). Am I wrong? If not, is there a reason for this? Hobson 03:08, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
If anyone wants to add more on the publishing history, a few snippets could be used and cited from this article. Just some of the facts and figures would be good. Carcharoth 03:22, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
What about Slavic mythology influence? Boromir is pure Slavic name; Moria is one of the names of goddess in Slavic mythology (Mora, Morana, goddess of winter and death). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 91.148.97.79 ( talk) 23:04, 19 March 2007 (UTC).
Well its certainly true, but perhaps a citation? Sultangris 00:14, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I dont think you should have removed that peice in the Lord of the Rings article, yes it did need some citations but it wasn't nonfactual, the observations made were completely correct and taken directly from the books. In my opinion there was not enough straight opinion or speculation to warrant an outright removal. Sultangris 02:24, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Critics might not go there, but there are newspaper articles and papers on the topic (hard to find) and far-right websites (not hard to find, unfortunately). The Tolkien and racism article was deleted, and I agree the title is bad even if the content might have been rescuable. We do currently have Minority criticisms of The Lord of the Rings (which frankly is pretty poor). We also have Middle Men, which is probably relevant as well. There are definite themes here, but they need to be presented and sourced with care. This article is not really the place for them. Carcharoth 15:53, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
you guys could say more about the plot and actors and....well everything!!!........
p.s. i like peter jacksons work!
What's this about a fourth book? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.228.134.143 ( talk) 23:32, 26 March 2007 (UTC).
I just removed an addition of a succession box for the Big Read poll. This poll really deserves only a brief mention in the article. A succession box gives it too much prominence, and readers should be directed to the article Big Read if they want information like this. Carcharoth 10:08, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
The story summary of this article is good, but the biggest flaw is that it doesn't distinguish well between elves and men.
By the way this is also one of my biggest problems with the movie trilogy, it gives the idea that elves are basically superior humans. Zantaggerung 03:40, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Conventionally, a synopsis in English is in the present tense, reserving the past tense for events that took place before the action of the story. The use of the past tense throughout the synopsis in this article creates unnecessary confusion. I'd change it myself, but it's been years since I read the book and I wouldn't want to make any mistakes.-- Ibis3 19:49, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Wikiproject Middle-earth uses present tense, supposedly due to Tolkien's writing style. Alientraveller 19:51, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Do you mean past tense Alientraveller? If so, to use past tense when speaking about the action of a present novel is illogical, no matter who the writer. Just take a look at this paragraph I pulled out at random:
Later, much of the story's exposition is given during a high council, attended by representatives of the major races of Middle-earth; Elves, Dwarves, and Men and presided over by Elrond. Gandalf told them of the emerging threat of Saruman, the leader of the Order of Wizards, who wanted the Ring for himself and had imprisoned him for a time. In order to fulfil an ancient prophecy about the return of the King of Gondor and Arnor, Aragorn was going to war against Sauron, armed with the royal sword Narsil, which had cut the Ring from Sauron's finger. After pondering several choices, the Council decided that the only course of action that could save Middle-earth was to destroy the Ring by taking it to Mordor and casting it into Mount Doom, where it was forged.
Okay, it starts off all right. There *is* a high council, but Gandalf *told* them of the emerging threat. When? Before the council (maybe before the action of the book). Saruman wanted the Ring for himself before the council (so it was emerging some time in the ancient past?); Aragorn was going to war sometime before that--maybe right after the Ring being cut. And if I didn't know that the Ring was forged long before any of these events, I'd be totally confused by the last sentence. In fact, the only reason I can follow this at all is because I've already read the book (& watched the movies). If a person were coming here to get a lucid summary of the book, they'd have to cross their eyes and hope for a bolt of lightning to straighten things out. -- Ibis3 20:08, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Ibis3, there is absolutely no reason that I can see why this synopsis should not be in the present tense, as it is with any other work of fiction. After all, why should The Lord of the Rings be held separate from other epic works of imaginative fiction, such as The Chronicles of Narnia, His Dark Materials, or Le Guin's Earthsea series, to name but a few off the top of my head? All of these have extensive secondary worlds, and I know that plenty of other fantasy books and series are even more extensive in their worlds and fictional histories. (The Star Wars articles are probably a relevant point of reference also, in terms of the breadth of their secondary world).
What's more, even the Tolkien pages are not internally consistent. This synopsis is already inconsistent by using a combination of past and present tense, which is just plain confusing. But then look at the synopses in the articles for FotR, TTT and RotK. They are written in present tense, as are a number of articles on other writings of Tolkien's in the legendarium (the Ainulindale and Valaquenta, for example).
So, 1) whatever is decided, let it be consistent, and 2) I strongly argue that present tense is the appropriate tense to use here. This encyclopedia should be consistent in style throughout. And consider: this article isn't written for hardcore Tolkien scholars, it is written for any casual reader interested in learning about this book, and for this reason it should be in keeping with the style of any other article on Wikipedia. It may be a fictional narrative that is attached to an imaginary historical legendarium, but it is still just a fictional narrative. Genedecanter 04:52, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
As this debate seems to be at somewhat of an impasse, I'm thinking I might put out a Request for Comment, so that I can elicit a broader range of opinions on this. If someone objects to my doing this please let me know, but as far as I can see it would be the best way to proceed. Genedecanter 11:04, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
"The action in The Lord of the Rings is set in what the author conceived to be the lands of the real Earth, inhabited by humanity but placed in a fictional past, before our science but after the fall of his version of Atlantis, which he calls Númenor." -- I think that this can be phrased better, and I have boldly made the change. "Our science" is generally considered to have begun circa 1580-1700 with such figures as Galileo, Francis Bacon, and Isaac Newton. -- Writtenonsand 22:30, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
The first two paragraphs of the synopsis feel like they should be elsewhere in the article, most likely in the Publication and Publication History sections. Perhaps parts of the first paragraph could remain, for clarification of the division of the story into its sections, but the second paragraph has no bearing on the synopsis being told. Anyone got thoughts about this? Genedecanter 22:10, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Why is the synopsis written in past tense, as opposed to present tense as indicated in
WP:WAF#Presentation of fictional material? —
Swpb
talk
contribs 21:28, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand the difference between these two sections, and if no one objects I would like to conflate them into one, probably called Publication history. Genedecanter 07:00, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
This is a great artical requesting protection please —Preceding unsigned comment added by AragornSonOfArathorn ( talk • contribs)
Needs fixing, as if the first book ends with the fellowship's coming to Rivendell
I've reworded the sentence from the opening paragraph of the intro, the one concerning Tolkien being annoyed at the book being published in three volumes. There was a reference to this URL: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0866058/bio, which contained this text: Was extremely annoyed when 'The Lord of the Rings' was published in the mid-50s as three different stories, because he had never intended the tale to become a trilogy. First of all, I don't think we should be referencing user-written 'biographies' from imdb.com, hardly an authoritative source. Secondly, I believe that the information here is fundamentally misleading, and Tolkien well understood the situation of the postwar paper shortage and other related difficulties, which made publishing a volume the size of LOTR a troublesome proposition, and he accepted the three volume idea as an imperfect but workable compromise. Genedecanter 14:53, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I've got a bunch of ideas about things that ought to be changed around or altered to improve the quality and readability of the article, so I figured I'd just list them all here for easy perusal:
Well, that's a few things for starters anyway. Please reply with any comments, additions or disagreements. Cheers, Genedecanter 15:44, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
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